Justin Willman Returns

Summary

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You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode: Justin Willman Returns
Date: July 23, 2025
Guests: Pete Holmes (host), Justin Willman (comedian & magician)

Episode Overview

This episode features the return of magician and comedian Justin Willman, whose Netflix special "Magic Lover" has captivated both Pete and audiences nationwide. The conversation dives deep into the art and psychology of magic, the challenges of crafting a televised special, the risks magicians take, the evolution of comedic and magical performance, and the real-life weirdness that bonds both crafts together. Pete’s enthusiasm is palpable throughout as he celebrates Justin's work, while Justin offers candid insights into his process, creative struggles, and the shifting landscape of modern magic.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Awe of "Magic Lover"

• Pete's Admiration: Pete opens by lavishly praising Justin’s special, calling it "the best hour of entertainment we've watched—tears and laughter included" ([05:09]).
• Universal Appeal: Both agree the special is for everyone—kids, adults, magicians, and laypeople alike.
• Magic Meets Comedy: Pete lauds Justin’s ability to blend stand-up-level humor with world-class magic.

2. The Psychological & Technical Challenges of Performing Magic on Film

• Capturing Live Energy: Justin explains the huge challenge of making the magic and energy of a live show translate onscreen ([07:00]).
• Filming the Special: It was shot over two nights in St. Paul, and Justin emphasizes the live, in-the-moment aspects that make televised magic special.
• Technical Skills and Repetition: Most of Justin's demanding sleights were learned as a teenager; he reflects on how much harder picking up new skills becomes with age ([10:04]).

3. The Beauty of Risk & "Too Perfect" Theory in Magic

• Embracing Uncertainty: Many of Justin’s effects involve real risk—volunteers could behave unpredictably, or a trick could miss; but this adds to the magic’s impact ([21:29], [23:34]).
• Fail-safes & Comedy as Cover: If something goes wrong, Justin uses humor as a built-in safety net, so mishaps register as funny rather than failures.
• The "Too Perfect" Theory: Tricks that work flawlessly may seem suspicious ("must be a plant!"), so magicians often intentionally introduce imperfections or ambiguity ([24:41]).
  • "If you make it so perfect...the problem is people will only have a plant to latch onto in their head." — Justin ([24:24])

4. Evolving Beyond Stock Material in Magic

• Originality is Essential: Justin discusses the process of moving away from store-bought and derivative routines. Reimagining classics to anchor them in real, relatable feelings gives magic heart and authenticity ([38:36]).
• Example of Reimagining: The classic "smash and stab" trick becomes meaningful when tied to screen addiction and the audience’s real anxieties ([32:59]).

5. Magic's Emotional Core and Storytelling

• Anchoring Tricks in Feeling: Pete and Justin explore how a memorable trick—like Justin’s zip code stunt—succeeds because it taps into people's pride in their hometowns and sense of personal identity ([44:41]).
• Family and Vulnerability: Interweaving his own fatherhood and everyday emotions gives Justin's magic a relatable, comedic, and moving resonance.
  • "So much of what you're doing is anchored in a feeling." — Pete ([44:24])

6. The Community and Culture of Magic

• Fellow Magicians: The magic community can be tough—jealousy and “tall poppy syndrome” are real; originality is respected, but only after proving yourself ([73:07]).
• Response to Justin's Success: Justin reflects on how attitudes from fellow magicians have shifted as he's evolved his material and style.

7. On the Construction and Cost of Big Effects

• R&D for Magic: Some routines can cost thousands to develop (e.g., his printer trick at about $10,000). The process includes everything from custom props to failed prototypes ([46:42], [47:15]).
• The "What's Next" Dilemma: Pressure to escalate every special (bigger, flashier, more elaborate) when sometimes the most powerful moments are intimate and suspenseful ([68:01]).

8. The Influence of Comedy and Magic on Each Other

• Shared Risk: Pete compares edgy jokes (vulnerabilities, taboos) to magic tricks that could fail. Both require courage and add emotional risk to the show ([29:22]).
• The Craft of the Opener: Much thought is given to how to properly open a show, tackle audience skepticism, and set the night’s tone ([91:24]).
  • "The tension that's being addressed is, I'm Justin. I'm magic. I'm better than you. I'm smarter than you... So you go, I'm gonna show you how it works, you're gonna show them that they're right, and then you're gonna show them that you're right." — Pete ([101:03])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the magic special's emotional impact:

  • "We involuntarily were both crying... It's not some schmaltzy... Like, and my mother would be proud. It's not like that. It's just magic. You dialed it in." — Pete ([05:09])

• On the risk in magic:

  • "You're risking your humiliation for another level of our delight... It's generous." — Pete ([22:43])

• On the challenge of perfection:

  • "The ‘too perfect’ theory. Is this a thing?" — Pete ([24:41])
  • "Even if I could make that vanish while you're looking at it, we kind of like it more if I put my hand inside." — Pete ([24:46])

• On magicians reimagining classics:

  • "You really need to... take those store bought things, but if you can make them about something that feels really original, then it kind of makes it original." — Justin ([38:36])

• On crowd work and volunteer unpredictability:

  • "That guy could go to the bathroom and not be in the room when I need him there... They can also go rogue and change their mind." — Justin ([19:45])

• On magic and memory:

  • "That is a feat of strength. You're doing... a 41,000 zip code... Memory palace." — Pete ([43:05])

• On magic's appeal to children:

  • "Are they kind of like, all right, or do they love it?" — Pete
  • "He loves it. But he wants to know how. He knows that there's a trick." — Justin ([85:47])

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [05:09] - Pete’s tearful review of "Magic Lover"
• [10:04] - Magic skills learned young vs. as an adult
• [21:29] - Risk-taking and structuring unpredictability into magic
• [24:41] - "Too perfect theory" and why intentional imperfection is essential
• [32:59] - Transforming "store-bought" routines into original material
• [44:41] - The emotional connection behind effects like the zip code trick
• [46:42] - R&D costs and behind-the-scenes of developing big tricks
• [68:01] - The struggle with "bigger is always better"
• [73:07] - Magic community’s competitive spirit
• [91:24] - Crafting the perfect opener and addressing audience skepticism
• [98:25] - Justin’s "time travel" opener: sending a signed bill back in time

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Memorable, Weird, or Funny Bits

• Pete repeatedly gushing and crediting Justin as one of the only magicians making magic feel real and moving to “tears and cackling laughter.”
• The recurring “plant” paranoia among magic audiences—an ongoing, affectionate gripe among performers ([17:14]).
• The dirty version of Justin’s “prize” trick at Largo—audience could win a hug or “anal”—leading to big laughs and Pete analyzing evolving attitudes about "wholesome" content ([63:33]).
• Detailed breakdown of memorable tricks, including how Justin built his zip code and memory stunts, often at significant personal cost and effort ([46:42], [43:05]).
• Pete and Justin’s shared reflection on the overlap between magic’s “setup/payoff” and comedy’s construction of risky jokes and delicate openings ([29:22], [92:17]).
• Nerdy deep dive: whether too-perfect tricks (or jokes) rob the audience of wonder, and how magicians and comedians intentionally “blunt the edge” of their material to invite audience delight ([24:41]-[25:54]).
• The behind-the-scenes story about the Magic Castle and magicians’ jealousy—rarely named out loud ([73:07]-[73:47]).

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Structure & Flow

The episode flows as an excited and affectionate nerd-out between two lifelong students (and lovers) of both magic and comedy. Pete’s tone is playful, earnest, and enthusiastic; Justin is candid, self-effacing, and generous with behind-the-scenes details. The conversation oscillates between big philosophical questions and ultra-technical details about sleight-of-hand, stagecraft, and the art of misdirection. Their reflections on risk, perfection, artifice, and meaning in both crafts create a bridge for anyone interested in performance—magic lovers or not.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

• Expect: A deep, hilarious, and heartfelt insider’s view into the world of live magic, its translation to television, and the ongoing quest to surprise, delight, and move audiences.
• Learn: Why risk and imperfection are essential in magic and comedy; how the best performers rewrite old classics to make them personal; and how a performer’s weirdness is secretly their greatest strength.
• Feel: Inspired to watch Justin Willman's "Magic Lover," appreciate the art of live performance with fresh eyes, and embrace your own inner (and outer) weirdo.

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Highlight: Quote to Share

"You're risking your humiliation for another level of our delight. It's not—I don't wanna say philanthropic, but it's generous. It's beautiful." — Pete Holmes ([22:43])

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Recommendation

Watch Justin Willman's "Magic Lover" on Netflix. It’s perfect for newcomers to magic, long-time fans, and anyone who wants their mind (and heart) blown.

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Summary by Podcast Summarizer AI. Cut through the ads. Keep it weird.

Transcript

[Justin Willman]

You made it with. You made it with.

[Pete Holmes]

You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This is the return of comedian magician Justin Willman. And I, as you're about to hear, loved his special so much. It's on Netflix. It's called Magic Lover. It is unbelievable. I say this in the episode, but you need to see it. I don't really go around recommending a lot of stuff just in general as a person, but I have told everybody that they need to watch Magic Lover by Justin Willman and most people have been like, I know, I saw it. It was unbelievable. It's one of the best hours of entertainment I've ever seen in my life. It's hilarious and even more so. It's unbelievable. It's incredible. It's for everybody. So watch it and tell people to watch. It couldn't mean that more. If you'd like to watch me, a non magical comedian doing, I have. I have certain magical elements. There's some footwork I do that's pretty remarkable. Go to PeterHolmes.com I'll be in LA at Largo on July 26th. After that we have DC, Boston, New Hampshire, Washington State, St. Louis, Cleveland, Florida, Chicago, Pennsylvania, New York, New York. We just added on there on November 14th. Finally, it's up on PeteHomes.com New York I'm coming back on November 14th, followed by Atlantic City, New Jersey on the 15th. Check all those dates out on PeteHomes.com and as we add more, they'll all be on PeteHomes.com this hour that I'm doing currently is my favorite new hour of my entire career and I hope you can be there. And thanks to everybody that was in Edmonton. What a wonderful show. What a great show. All right, in the meantime, enjoy my chat with the wonderful, incredible, delightful and brilliant Justin Willman. Get into it. I think it's great before shows. This isn't an ad. I find the specific up and down of it makes me feel ready to perform.

[Justin Willman]

Do you find it sustains?

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. But it burns off in the course of a show.

[Justin Willman]

Yes, yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Which I like because I want to be able to go to bed. Yes. But now sometimes I'll sip a little red Coke, the regular Coke. I have a superstition that I did the first time I got a standing ovation in my career. I drank a red can of Coke before I went on stage. So like the university of whatever somewhere on the east coast. I drank it and I got a standing ovation. And I can't stress this enough. When you've never had a standing ovation.

[Justin Willman]

You'Re like, what did I do different?

[Pete Holmes]

What you. And I was like, it was that coke, but I just didn't know. But it's an amazing feeling. Do you remember your. Welcome to the show. We're gonna get to that. But first, right out the bat cold open to the episode. Do you remember your first standing ovation?

[Justin Willman]

Wow, that's a great question.

[Pete Holmes]

With a feeling of when you started going, like, I think I'm figuring this out. It doesn't have to be a standing ovation.

[Justin Willman]

I think when I. When I was a teenager, I was doing a bird act. A bird with doves. Yeah, yeah. In the style of lamp.

[Pete Holmes]

Prestige.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Prestige.

[Justin Willman]

The prestige, where you.

[Pete Holmes]

The dead bird.

[Justin Willman]

You got to have a backup. Yeah. That was a. I don't think that was a common method. We love it. But the dead bird thing, I think, is a misnomer, and it's a pretty harsh misnomer.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a bad one.

[Justin Willman]

Magicians.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. That they're out here out there killing a bird.

[Justin Willman]

For every bird that appears, there have.

[Pete Holmes]

To be some older methods.

[Justin Willman]

That were two birds, one trick, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

Have you ever been, like, poring over old magic literature and been like, this method requires the execution of, like, a cow. Like, something brutal that we wouldn't do anymore.

[Justin Willman]

There are some harsh things, I think. Like, there was a trick where you take a cigarette paper and you tear it up and it turns into a moth, you know, that flutters away. I think it involved, like, freezing the moth and then sticking it in, like, a small tube that's stuck to the back of your thumb for 24 hours, which is probably not good for the moth. Although it's like a cocoon, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

It'S hard to know what is the price of wonder. How long does a moth live?

[Justin Willman]

That's a good question.

[Pete Holmes]

Because when you do a thing in your unbelievable special. And we'll get to that question that I just asked you about when you felt like you were starting to get good. But when you. I don't want to spoil a single moment of it, so we're really going to try not to. But it's called magic. Lover, lover, love, singular. It's the best thing I've ever seen in my life. You did it, Pete. Really put it on the poster.

[Justin Willman]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

And change my name to Joe Rogan and you'll have a real thing going. I'm just saying, we watched It. And we. Not only is it the. Like, it's not just the best mad. I'm not putting it any category, like, best magic special. I'm like, this is the best hour of entertainment we've watched. We cried at the end.

[Justin Willman]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

We involuntarily were both crying. And I told that to Katie, and I was like, it's not some schmaltzy. Like. And my mother would be proud. It's not like that. It's just magic. You dialed it in. So, as you know, I love magic.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Very, very much. You did what I've always wanted magicians to do and what every magician is kind of trying to do, I think, which is, like, if I could do anything, if anything was possible, what would I do? And you did it. That's what it is.

[Justin Willman]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

It's perfect.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you so much.

[Pete Holmes]

It's hilarious. I was cackling out loud. Cackling. Laughing so hard. It's perfect for everybody, you know, like, you could. What kids could watch. Kids are in the show. But also the magic is so saturated with X Factor. I don't know what the. I'd like to know what the magician term is, meaning random elements. I know you know this, but, like, the show, it's not just. I'm gonna. There's things that go by chance that get folded. I know what I don't mean. I'm trying to tell them.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Something happens that's random and it gets incorporated into the show in the same way that an improviser, a musician, would use these, like, things that were, like, wrong or, like, clearly unplanned and everything. It's an overwhelming experience of joy and majesty.

[Justin Willman]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

It's unbelievable.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you so much.

[Pete Holmes]

How does it feel?

[Justin Willman]

Proud of it.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you feel good about it?

[Justin Willman]

I feel really good about it.

[Pete Holmes]

I hope so.

[Justin Willman]

It's really hard, you know, when you. You know how you feel the crowd feels when you're. When you nail a show and there's no. That's one show not being filmed, you know, like, when you're. When you're just out on, like, you know how good it feels for them. And it's just the challenge of capturing that on camera for somebody on their couch is.

[Pete Holmes]

I couldn't imagine the challenge of that is that one show.

[Justin Willman]

That was mostly one show. We shot two nights, though.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Fantastic city. St. Paul. You shot your special Minneapolis right there. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Great people.

[Justin Willman]

Great people. It was cold outside. They had nothing better to do, so it was lovely.

[Pete Holmes]

The grateful market, we thought. Thank you. We're so cold.

[Justin Willman]

But I.

[Pete Holmes]

Thanks for giving us something to take our mind off at.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I think I was able to get everything I was going for in there. You know, I couldn't believe it.

[Pete Holmes]

But you also seemed incredibly. In fact, that's my first official question. Let's put. When do you feel like you started to have it dialed in to one side? The number one thing I want to know is, how much do you make a year? Noise is heart rate. I anticipate your answer is. Because if I'm thinking about doing some of the things you're doing, technically, my hands would start to shake. Right. Is it just repetition? I'm talking about, like, how do you stay calm? You're filming. I just filmed my new special. Sorry, I'm a little scattered. I'm excited. I was doing a set I had done 300 times, and I'm on stage and I noticed that my leg was shaking. And I was like, what? 25 years of comedy and my leg is shaking and I'm doing it, and I start thinking about all the people that are going to see it, like, during the set. Second show was better. I wasn't having that issue. But I'm curious. How do you keep your hand, like Leo DiCaprio and the departed, steady? I want to know how you. What you do to regulate yourself. Is it just repetition? Please tell me everything.

[Justin Willman]

Well, being able to do two shows and have that second show was the first show. It was a huge load off. The first show was good, but it wasn't. I didn't walk off saying, like, that was the best show of my life, you know, Which I did the second show.

[Pete Holmes]

It's how it always is.

[Justin Willman]

Which I did the second show.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Okay.

[Justin Willman]

And in my head, like, leading up to it, I've got all. You know. Cause there's a lot of crowd work that happens with the people that I randomly pick and these moments that have happened over the course of a couple years, like, in my head, I'm like, oh, God, maybe that man would be great if they said that or if they did this. You know, just those funny things that you can't.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Recreate. And I try to figure out.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't even want to call it crowd work. Your interaction with your volunteers was right on. Really, really funny.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It felt really great that it's done.

[Justin Willman]

It's so.

[Pete Holmes]

Can you just take a minute to be, like, talking about it? It's done. Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't have to wonder how.

[Justin Willman]

Because there's. Right. Right when you walk off stage, there's like. It's a little done. Yeah. But then you're. When the edit, you're kind of like, is it. Was it as good as I felt?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

But it. You know, I don't do tons of technically demanding sleight of hand.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

I do a couple. Like, you know the bill trick that I do with. Which is someone's bill I've been doing. No, I learned that when I was like 14. Wow. Just, you know, like a very useful sleight of hand skill that like most of the things that I'm really good at technically, I learned when I was a teenager.

[Pete Holmes]

Probably. That's a brain thing, right?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Tricks you.

[Justin Willman]

That I could like if I tried to learn a new slight right now. I mean, it's.

[Pete Holmes]

We're closed.

[Justin Willman]

It's exactly like learning picking up the guitar now. Forget about it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Forget about it. Yeah. I'm not that guy. The guitar guy at the party.

[Pete Holmes]

But like. And forget you. You know, like. I always remember when David Blaine did the folding coin, but he did it so well. You did that trick. And I didn't think that when I was watching it. But you're saying here it's something that you knew 30 years ago, but you did it so well. And I hate to use the word patter because you're really doing more than that. You're doing stand up, telling a funny story. So it's not just pattern, it's not some memorized thing, but it's very engaging and you tied it into being a father. I don't know. I just. Don't get me started. I'll tell you what's perfect about everything, because it's the whole hour. It's unbelievably perfect. So sorry.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. The steadiness. Yeah. Because there it is. There's.

[Pete Holmes]

You're putting that phone in that bag pretty steady.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, that's true. I do have like. When I'm on live tv.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

I'll sometimes feel that. That. That annoying shake. And I don't know why. It's not like I'm doing something new. It's just something about that pressure. But the repetition, I think, you know, is what helped me. I was also super sick. I was like getting over a really bad cold. I got all hopped up on antibiotics like the day before. Yeah. Like that week. So I was losing my voice. So I kind of was already a little bit out of sorts of. And so I just kind of went into a zone, I think I didn't really have. I was more concerned about not being Sweaty.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, I'm shocked. I've been there. I've done TV sets full of decor. Flonase or whatever it is. What's the one? Afron.

[Justin Willman]

Afron. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You've got a mainland.

[Justin Willman]

Three days tops, they say.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually did stick to that. I'm proud to say. I think it's. Nate Bargazi has a bit of a.

[Justin Willman]

His dad's been on for decades.

[Pete Holmes]

Until you're done.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm blown away and my mind's going a mile a minute. So please finish your answer to this question.

[Justin Willman]

Well, I think there's something about. I had all these. I just wanted to be able to have my voice last the whole hour. I didn't really. I couldn't get in my head too much about the minutia. I think I was comfortable that I'd already gotten the minutia worked out and I could just focus on, you know, looking not sick.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Which you don't. You look great. I love what you're wearing. You also. This is a very specific compliment. You're funny. Kind of like how Jon Hamm is funny. Compliment.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like charisma. Sorry. Forgive. But like there's something hammy about it.

[Justin Willman]

I. I like H A M M. H A M M, double M. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I was watching. I was like, I think either you love Jon Hamm, but Jon Hamm would love you.

[Justin Willman]

I do love Jon Hamm. He's also from. I'm from St. Louis.

[Pete Holmes]

Maybe that's what it is. There's a St. Lou, Louisiana.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Something. Show me, show me Stadium in the midd.

[Pete Holmes]

There is. So when you're doing live TV and you have that. Are you doing anything to calm down? Are you doing breath? Are you jumping up and down? Are you just doing the.

[Justin Willman]

I'll do some push ups. I'll do. I'll do some things that. What I hate is the dry mouth, you know? You ever get that for sure? Yeah. I just did the Today show last week and I'm not doing anything technically demanding, but. Right. Right when we're like one minute out.

[Pete Holmes]

Chapstick and do you with element. This isn't me squeezing ads in. I don't. I don't know if I want. Element is. It's. It's basically salt water. It's. It's. It's potassium, sodium and magnesium. Everyone's probably rolling their eyes. But I really do love. Because I do ads for them, but I love it. I. I'll have them send you some.

[Justin Willman]

Okay. Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

It gets you really hydrated. And before, I'm doing a SAT Chapstick, so you don't have the dry. Because all that stuff looks like even if you're not anxious, it looks like you're anxious, and then you are anxious.

[Justin Willman]

Then you are anxious.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I mean?

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

The crowd is like, this guy's anxious.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And you're really trying to. That's what I was gonna say. The guy that you sort of hoodwink, let's say in the front. Nick. I believe his name is Nick now. I'm trying to.

[Justin Willman]

White hat guy. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Not white hat guy.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, Andy the money guy. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Cheers. I mean, you still remember. That's amazing. Andy who you say? DJ Khaled.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm like, but what is it worth to be in this special? You know what I mean? Because he sort of cheated out of some money without any. Without any spoilers. There's a guy in the crowd who's cheated, and that's one of your X Factor moments, by the way. It's brilliant. He says, I have a Honda. Justin, look, I'm not here to do anything but build this special up and celebrate it, but the sheer luck of tape night, the guy says that I.

[Justin Willman]

Have a hundred, and that's one of those things that had happened. Maybe two out of 10 shows, somebody will volunteer it. Right. I can't handle it, and it doesn't happen. I have to kind of go like, you know, just kind of wait until they have the thought. Or, like, act like, oh, you guys were seeing. Oh, you want to see it again? What you got? You know, I have to milk it. But I didn't. It happened perfectly. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That was my question. Look, jumping all around. Couldn't be more excited. Just think, it's the best thing in the world and it's. What a privilege to get to talk to you. The day after I watch it. Everyone should be so lucky. It's so fun for me. But I was gonna say without giving. You're not gonna give anything away. It's part of your job. I'm just saying, like, how reliable is that show? How. How many fail safes are there? And, you know, I'm asking as a. The first category. Magic lover.

[Justin Willman]

Magic lover, for sure.

[Pete Holmes]

I had a fake thumb. You drop the thumb, you say, whoops, folks, I'm all thumbs. That was in the pamphlet. So it looks like you carry a fake thumb to do the I'm all thumbs gag.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

People are like, that was funny. But it's a. It's a important Part of your act that you just dropped. You have to have fail safes. That's just my general as a lover. Fail safes.

[Justin Willman]

There's. There are. Well, there's. Yeah, there's always fail safes. I mean, if I dropped a thumb, if I was using one, you know, I probably would make some cheeky joke and then, you know, hold for editing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Hold that position. Trim it out. But like, the guy who guessed that there was a printer, Right. I'm trying my best to lead them down that garden path.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, do shows ever happen where no one says it's a printer?

[Justin Willman]

You know, sometimes they're like, I think I know. And they'll have the cockiness that I'm like, oh, he's gonna say, it's a printer.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And they'll say, you know that guy? And okay, he's your cousin. Then I have to be like, well, I threw a frisbee to pick somebody random.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, can we adjust?

[Justin Willman]

Magic Castle had a guy go like, how do you do it? Producers.

[Pete Holmes]

That's brutal. Hollywood, you know, is plant the most upsetting guess for a magician?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Is I. I imagine it is.

[Justin Willman]

Plant. Plant.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a plant.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Meaning it's a. It's a person. You know, you're throwing a frisbee because the one that is is in the best, highest compliment way, keeping me up at night. Meaning I thought about it most of the ride down. I again, as appreciation. I'm like, the. The wordle guy will haunt me forever. So much so that even if you were like, I'll tell. I'd be like, I'd rather not. I'd rather have that. That one is a diamond. I'll never not think about it. And all five things fold in. And that moment. Does that ever go wrong? Yeah, it does.

[Justin Willman]

It had. Over the course of the. You know, because that's pretty. Nine months I'm working on that one.

[Pete Holmes]

It's pretty exciting.

[Justin Willman]

It's pretty exciting. When it. When it all. Yeah, when it all. I mean, you can kind of power. Like. I had different ways of, you know, doing the word gathering. It wasn't necessarily a wordle at first. I really wanted to have something that felt, like, nonchalant and felt like that was it and then was a loose end that you kind of forgot about later. And I had different ways of trying it that were less predictable. Interesting. You know, let me let the people in.

[Pete Holmes]

There's a guy at the beginning that seems like a throwaway, which I know is by design. It's something that great drama. All great movies will have some Runner. You ask a guy to think of a five letter word. You throw a frisbee to him, he catches it. You go, we're playing wordle in real life. Think of a five letter word. You go, is it magic? And he goes, no. Okay. And then later, whenever you're kind of like. And I never even for a second thought about turning the special off. But if you were, you might stop because you go, but what's that wordle guy? Yeah, you do shoes. Is it shoes? And that comes from genuine talk. It's not like in your act you go, shoes, is it shoes? It's because you were talking to a guy about shoes. Bring your work home, all that sort of stuff. So. And then you're going back to this guy with his wordle in his head, and then you're worried. Like, I was worried you were gonna guess it, but you need. He needs to say it. But at the end of the show. So after an hour of magic, there's something on stage baked in again, no spoilers, but there's something baked in on the. It's done, it's set in stone. And you say, what was your word? He says, what? It was this guy from the beginning of the show. And then you reveal that you had that word in a manner of speaking, in an undeniable way. You're like, here it is. Actually, here it is twice.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

So that guy is the difference between Val and I crying or not crying.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And you're saying it can go sideways.

[Justin Willman]

It could definitely go sideways. That guy could go to the bathroom and not be in the room when I need him there. You know, there's that. That happened once. That happened.

[Pete Holmes]

Uh huh. What did you do?

[Justin Willman]

I think I just was like, where's the guy?

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, God, we.

[Justin Willman]

And I think I riffed until he came back. You know, so there's that. That can happen. They can also go rogue and change their mind midway and be like, you know what? I think I'm gonna think of better way.

[Pete Holmes]

I was gonna say penis. Like go for a cheap laugh or something.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. But here's the thing. It's like with the. Just. Was it magic? And no. Okay. That would've been cool. I think by establishing the tempo early that. Oh, okay. In the back of their mind, the audience is thinking, well, not every trick is a trick. Some of these are just for fun. Okay, I can get on board, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

I see.

[Justin Willman]

So it's like when. When a trick. When a promise of a trick ends in Magic. It's like, yeah, awesome. That's what I was hoping for. But when it doesn't, if I've established that it's not like a fail, it's not like, you know, it's kind of like that amazing. Jonathan.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Justin Willman]

Tempo, where it's like some things are just. Just stupid gags.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, well, then this line of questioning has really paid off for me because that needs to be celebrated. Because it's not just a fail safe. A fail safe is like, you created an environment in your show that allows for you to make. Have things not work out perfectly because then it will be comedy. Yeah, but doesn't that embolden you to try crazier things?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, if you really were being like, and I love David Blaine, but if you were really going like, I'm in a trance right now. You know what I mean? That's like more of the eyeliner style. I'm not saying he's wearing eyeliner. I'm just saying, like the ancient kind of, like, mystique approach to magic. You can't make a mistake. But if you're Justin Willman, our friend, which is your vibe with the crowd, and something goes goofy, then it's just funny. But now you can try things. Is there a term in magic for this that are more volatile, more. Less reliable?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, they're, I think, risks. I think we. Let's see. Chan Canasta is this famous magician who used to do a lot of tricks and magic that basically were about. There was a high level of risk involved just in the. It might not work. Not like he might not life or death, but just, you know, there's three stacks of cards in front of you, so you're retracing, retracing in your head. You're like, I could have changed my mind. But he's subtly kind of nudging you in different ways to the path he wants, whether it's a force or whatever.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

But you could go rogue at any time, and he has to then kind of jazz his way back on track or be completely off. But. But when it does work perfectly, it's impossible to, like, retrace. And I think.

[Pete Holmes]

But don't you see the beauty of this? You're risking your humiliation for another level of our delight. It's really. It's not. I don't wanna say philanthropic, but it's generous. It's beautiful. It's something that, like, I'm like, wow, you're putting your neck out there, and I'm telling you the reason why Val And I cried at the end of the special is because three impossible things happened at the same time. I just get the chills thinking about it. But for that to happen and correct me if I'm wrong, you're. You're risking more. You could be hurt your feelings. And if you're like me, if something goes wrong, does it stay with you? Like, if somebody does go rogue and he changes his word or whatever it is, does that hurt you? Does it. Is it, like, unpleasant?

[Justin Willman]

Even with, like, a fail safe where I feel like there's a way I could, you know, cover up the thing that didn't work and the audience may not know about it, I normally just feel like bummed that I robbed the audience of the full potential of a thing. Yeah. Your question was, does it scare me?

[Pete Holmes]

Does it hurt you?

[Justin Willman]

Does it hurt me?

[Pete Holmes]

I'll tell a joke and it doesn't work and it'll hurt me for a few days. So I'm like.

[Justin Willman]

I would say it hurts in that I need to fix that. I need to mitigate that risk. You're. Because I want to. I want it to. To hit most of the time. You know what I mean? Just like hundo guy. It's like the audience will enjoy the. The path with this guy. The same if I had to kind of coax a hundred dollar bill out of somebody.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. But it's so much better.

[Justin Willman]

But yeah. Because I think that's the thing. It's like, if you make it so perfect, though, if I took huge risks and it still worked, I think the. The problem is people will only have a plant that. It must be a plant to track back to in their head.

[Pete Holmes]

We've probably talked about this last time. There's a thing in magic.

[Justin Willman]

Too perfect theory.

[Pete Holmes]

Too perfect. Is this a thing?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Too perfect.

[Justin Willman]

Too perfect.

[Pete Holmes]

Even if I could make that vanish while you're looking at it, we kind of like it more if I put my hand inside.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. It just gives us our brains some scapegoat. Like something happened when it was obscured from our vision. Or if it's just a mystery. Yeah. Justin. Name any card. And I said seven hearts, and it's a seven hearts. It's kind of like.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

Okay. If people. People are watching that. Oh, Pete's in on it. Justin's in on it. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

Or even he got lucky. Like, they'll go, like, he just got lucky.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Or that.

[Justin Willman]

Or that.

[Pete Holmes]

But you could. Yeah, I think I told you. Maybe. I certainly told you all my magic stories when Penn Jillette did my show. Crashing. I just was like, name any card. And he said, four clubs. And I just cut. I was like, but what if it was right, but it wasn't. It's totally stupid. But I took a 1 out of 52 chance that I could have been amazing, but that was the dumbest thing.

[Justin Willman]

Did he laugh?

[Pete Holmes]

He didn't laugh. No, he was. He was very generous. He wasn't mean about it at all. He was like, okay, I see what you're doing, but we just moved on.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But, yeah, people would think if it had worked, he probably just would have been like, there is a way to do that, though. I've seen people do that at the Magic Castle where they're like, name a card and they cut to it or.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I think it's amazing. Anyway, sorry.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Avoiding that. Too perfect.

[Pete Holmes]

Too perfect. That's what we're talking about.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Is there any trick when we say too perfect, is it just what I said, that we need a moment where we're covering it? What else is too perfect?

[Justin Willman]

I guess that would be. Yeah. In terms of, like, a physical object thing. But I think when it's mentalismy, you know, like, like, you know, tossing the frisbee to pick somebody. Like, if I didn't do that, if it was just like, you do this, our brains are going to retrace back and be like, oh, he picked the guy. You know? So I try to add the frisbee toss.

[Pete Holmes]

Yep. Which even then they'll be like, he threw it.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, he's a pro.

[Pete Holmes]

Jess. Proud is like. Because the wordle one is really fudging my gung in the best way.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm like, that guy did catch it really well, but it's so dumb.

[Justin Willman]

You know, it's funny if you watch the special, he actually caught a second Frisbee too, when I was tossing it for kids. Like, his arm just goes, he's a great cat. And he hands it to it. Yeah, he's a great cat.

[Pete Holmes]

He's a great catch. Which doesn't help the. Like, it's not a plant. People. Look, I'm not going to give that.

[Justin Willman]

Example, but if they build, I'd rather them think it's. I guess think it's a. Like, it does bother me hearing the plant stuff, but I think I'd rather that than them call out exactly what I'm really doing.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. Yeah. Plant. But it's. It's the least imaginative.

[Justin Willman]

Correct.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, wouldn't you. You'd prefer a. Okay, you played the song. I Don't want to say the word. But you played a song that had, like, people love that. Like, you've seen Darren Brown get people to give them his cell phone, and it's. It's legit. Like, he finds somebody. At least I think it's legit because he's shooting it on the streets of London. He's looking for someone who's so checked out that he can influence them. I don't think that's magic as much as it's. We're all kind of hypnotized and in the days and you find the right person. I don't know what your take is on that, but, like, how influenceable people are. That's a more fun guess.

[Justin Willman]

At least that's what I. And that's.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what you'd like.

[Justin Willman]

That's what I like. That I'd like. That's more fun.

[Pete Holmes]

Way more fun.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Because then I'm going, can I prime you to say. And the truth is, you can prime behavior. You know, if I say, like, we open this podcast with me telling you how great it is, that's going to change the slope of your shoulders. Like, you're going to be less guard. We are. We're already friends. But I'm just saying, like, you can influence people's behavior with words. And then. And now you got me thinking, like, well, how far can that go? And that's the joy. That's the joy of magic. Could you make this guy say a word but hold it for an hour.

[Justin Willman]

And not change his mind?

[Pete Holmes]

Can you even get so. Too perfect? What's the other in mentalism? Too perfect would be. You asked me to. Like, you want it written in somebody's arm in wax that you cover in ash or something like that gives us a moment.

[Justin Willman]

It gives you. So it's not just about backtracking to, well, what if he said something different? It's like, well, if it's in the arm or in the case of the finale, you know, like, what else is in those boxes? Or what, you know, can the things change? It just gives your brain a couple more outs, you know, to keep you up at night, I think in a good way. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

In the best way.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'll think about it.

[Justin Willman]

Like, can a joke be too perfect?

[Pete Holmes]

That's interesting. Yeah. When we're talking about risk, I think the thrill for me as a performer is getting a joke to work. That is a little bit. When I say over the line, I don't really mean, like, even specifically dirty or rude or something. But if I can get for. I'll give you an example. Men to laugh at losing their erection. That, to me, is a magic trick. Because I get guys on dates to laugh about vulnerability. That is me risking more. And it might not work, but if they do it, I'm like, I've done it. Like, I really pulled something off here. So I do like jokes that can fail. As opposed to, like, the too perfect. Yes, the too perfect is. Isn't that what we would call hack or something would be like, yeah, everyone gets that. And therefore, it's not that valuable to me. If you can make that work, then you actually have some skill as a comedian. If you can make me laugh at that.

[Justin Willman]

Well, I've heard, you know, some of the. I can't even think of a good example of, like, oh, when people say, like, oh, man, that's a perfect joke. But they're often the jokes that you're not getting someone laughing at. They're like, oh, wow, that's per. That's good. That's a perfect joke. Like, it belongs in a museum.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. You know what, you mean the ones that I. I know Louis is a complicated person who's made mistakes, but Louis has a lot of jokes where I'm like, I can't believe he just made whatever. He's in front of 10,000 people laugh about the worst thing in the world. Like, really the worst thing in the world. And everyone's laughing. And not in a cruel way, not in like a weird. Like, let's celebrate something awful, but, like, really getting to people to think about the awful implications of a certain behavior or belief. I'm like, that's magical. That's magic.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Pete Holmes]

And if somebody goes up, like, what do we say? Like, you know, Starbucks, it's tall, grande. And, you know, like, if it's too low hanging, is there a magic trick that people are like, how was he? Let's just say he did the ambitious.

[Justin Willman]

Card or whatever, something like that. There's a lot of those kinds.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, really?

[Justin Willman]

For sure, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Crowd pleasing, stupid, not technically difficult tricks, but that everybody loves.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like. And I used to do lots of those.

[Pete Holmes]

I actually love the ambitious.

[Justin Willman]

Do you remember when I used to have Siri talk me through doing a trick with a banana, folding up this banana, and, like, she thought it was a bandana. And she keeps misunderstanding me that it's a. I tell her it's a banana. No, you have a bandana. I'm trying to have her Teach me a trick and I end up folding up this banana. That I think is a, it's kind of a classic hacky trick because the trick is so inherently funny. You don't have to be funny to get laughs doing it.

[Pete Holmes]

And magic is sort of. Sorry.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Riddled with that.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Like if somebody made something bulletproof, they would give it or sell it and you'd do a. You'd learn someone else's routine. Maybe we talked about this last time you were on. But that's one of the differences is like I have this effect. You can buy it, you can do it. And some of them even come with the jokes. And now you're doing someone else's routine. And that wasn't considered. Still isn't considered.

[Justin Willman]

I mean, it's just kind of.

[Pete Holmes]

Is that changing.

[Justin Willman]

Considered a kosher? You mean? Like, is it. I would say it's, it's, it's fine. But it, it kind of is a, a little ceiling limitation. Ceiling with where you can go. And it took, it took me a while to realize, you know, you really need to like, you can take those store bought things but, but if you can make them about something that feels really original, then it kind of makes it original.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, isn't that what you did? Because we've seen the paper bag with the nail and we love that trick. But one of the things you've always done is you take what's in our culture and so now you're doing with people's phones and tying it into like screen addiction, which really now we are leaning in. But is that what you're saying, like you're reimagining?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, that's. I mean that's a good example where it's. You're reimagining a classic plot, you know, a roulette.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, a roulette. Is that what that's called?

[Justin Willman]

That's, you know, kind of like they call this the smash and stab with the, with the spikes.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think I've ever seen that trick and been like, I think, I think it's going to go bad.

[Justin Willman]

No, like this is. Have you seen it go bad though? Does it go bad on YouTube? Yeah, there's a lot of videos of it going bad for people who don't.

[Pete Holmes]

Know what we're talking about. Five paper bags and there's a board with a nail in it.

[Justin Willman]

And he, and the magician, he lets them pick, right? Yeah, they, there's a bunch of different ways they can pick. And he smashes his hand over them.

[Pete Holmes]

And again, I'M saying there's a very. I forget the name of the guy that did it, but the subtle force where it goes, pick one of the bags. And then if you pick the one I want you to pick, I say, okay, this one. But if you pick the one I don't want you to pick, I say, okay, we'll get rid of this one.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. So that's a. That's a great technique. When I watched you doing everything that could have been a force, I had zero guess as to what was going on. It's just pristine. It's just pristine. Including. And especially the trick with the phone. And I was just like. I kept waiting for you to be like, number one. Okay, we'll get rid of number one.

[Justin Willman]

Right?

[Pete Holmes]

Never. You eat with the wallets. You pick it. That's the one. You even say it. You go, you pick it. That's the one you get. And I'm like, this is like 20, 25 show. This is like magic. For people that have seen magic, people that like magic, people like me that want to study magic, it's just. I can't. I can't compliment it enough. It's unbelievable. But he puts five phones in a bag and he's smashing.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Narrowing down to one, it's unbelievable.

[Justin Willman]

And that one, in my case, if it. If it went wrong, and it could go wrong, it would be purely my human error, you know?

[Pete Holmes]

Really?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. And I've been fearful of it.

[Pete Holmes]

It is.

[Justin Willman]

It is. Luckily not. I've never accidentally smashed somebody's phone. But the spike trick does terrify me. I did a version of it, like a year ago in Kelly Clarkson where it was like a lazy Susan of spikes over cups. And after it went. After it went well, I was like, I don't want to do that again. Just because the visceral fear of stabbing my hand is not fun.

[Pete Holmes]

Is that a consideration?

[Justin Willman]

You know, just like when you flub a. You know, you flub a joke, you know, like, it just could happen.

[Pete Holmes]

Of course. In fact, we're. This last hour I did, we filmed a little doc. I don't know where we are in the process, but hopefully we'll make it. We'll finish it. Because we were talking about the other hour. You do the hour and then there's this other hour. By the time you've cut all the jokes, there's this other hour of material that isn't bad. In fact, some of it might be better than some of the stuff that's in the hour, but it's not reliable. It's my bag.

[Justin Willman]

It's your bag.

[Pete Holmes]

It's my bag. It's my spike bag.

[Justin Willman]

So you mean the hour that didn't make the. It doesn't make it. Not that you shot it, but it got edited out. Just that you were like, it's not.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, that's why they were shooting me on the road to go like, these jokes die and it's like, why? And a lot of times it's like, look, I love that joke, but it. I keep getting my hand stabbed.

[Justin Willman]

Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. A trick isn't reliable.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Is it? Do you. Do you think once your hour starts taking shape, there's jokes that would be fantastic in a different hour, in a.

[Pete Holmes]

Different theme or, you know, sometimes they come back. Sometimes they come back, but usually are they dead forever? Otherwise, in a weird way, I just go like, those are dead forever.

[Justin Willman]

Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. I'm not, I'm not real artisti in a lot of ways, but one way is like, I don't, like, I don't want to look back and go like, can we rescue that one? I just go like, we tried it 30 times. We tried it.

[Justin Willman]

Now what if you've got a joke that is on an early album or something?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Do you ever do it again? Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It's funny that you asked that because there's this last hour that I just filmed and the new one I'm doing. Both have. I'm talking five seconds that were from like three, four, five specials ago. But it just was too good to not just briefly say it again as a callback almost. Not to the.

[Justin Willman]

To the people who.

[Pete Holmes]

Maybe if you were like a super duper fan, you would know. But it's not like I'm calling back like a big well known joke. It's just like something I've kind of said before. I'm saying it again, but I'm like, I think that comes with age. I'm just like, I just want it to be as funny as possible. And if I've already written a joke about this and it's not even a joke, it's like a. It's like an attitude. It's like a perspective. I'm gonna say it again here. Yeah. Because I'll give you what it was I did on Nice Try the Devil. I talked about not wanting to call my in laws mom and dad. And now I have another joke about my nephew. But he's my nephew in law because he's my brother in law's son. And I was like, well, that's too perfect to not Just go like. And I'm not call my in laws, mom and dad, like, just while we're on the subject, we're all primed. Let's just do it again.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

And I've never had anyone be like, refund. It's good. Where were we? You reimagine. We were talking about. I was wondering if, if the standard has risen for magicians of your caliber to write their own stuff and it seems to be.

[Justin Willman]

I think so. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

For sure.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I found that I never, you know, got to do. Got the opportunities I was looking for until I did the hard. The hard part of getting rid of those easy laughs that weren't mine. You know what I mean? And coming up with what's my take on things? Yeah, yeah. Which took for, you know, in magic, I think you get this false sense of. You get to coast on the art forms, you know, the hard work that the art form has done for a while. And people see magic show infrequently that they don't know that they're. That. That you didn't invent that trick. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

Right. Right. There is the Magic Castle. But people don't go to, like, there aren't millions of magic castles and people don't go to magic. Like they do comedy.

[Justin Willman]

Correct.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

Or see it even on tv, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

They don't see it as magic.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, how few. And I love magic. It's you. And I said Darren Brown and Derek Delgadio and like it's few and far between that you get a magic special.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Was that a big moment?

[Justin Willman]

That was a big moment. Yeah. Because I grew up on the, you know, all the, like Thanksgiving, the world's greatest magic specials that would be on tv, you know, and Harry Anderson was a big influence. He had a comedy magic special back in the day.

[Pete Holmes]

Anderson. Did he write the memory book?

[Justin Willman]

No, that's Harry, Lorraine. Oh, Harry. Couldn't remember which Harry.

[Pete Holmes]

Classic.

[Justin Willman]

Both Harry's.

[Pete Holmes]

I read the memory book and we'll get to that. We'll get to that. You salty dog. Just when we wanted a feat of strength, your special goes. And here's a feat of strength. Brilliant.

[Justin Willman]

That's couldn't.

[Pete Holmes]

Couldn't be paced better.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

Couldn't be paced better.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. For a while I was introducing that bit like, you know, every Netflix said every, every successful magic special has a stunt, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to wait, Is that real? No, but I used to set it up like, you know, David Blaine would be, you know, frozen in a block of ice or hold his breath. Harry would get straight jacketed and jump into a lake.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

I was like, no one ever wants to see a wet magician, you know, so let's try a memory, a memory feature.

[Pete Holmes]

But Harry Lorraine used to memorize everyone's name.

[Justin Willman]

Everyone's name. Yeah. He did that on the Tonight Show, I think, with Carson. Like, everybody in the audience, see, you.

[Pete Holmes]

And I know this.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

But most people don't know that. And so when they see.

[Justin Willman]

Most people think we're talking about Carson Daly right now. Like, they don't even know.

[Pete Holmes]

What I'm saying is, what a brilliant choice to bring, I guess, to bring back. But your own take of much. Much, in my opinion, crazier take. So you're. You're doing the lineage well. You're heightening this. I'm just gonna say. Can I say.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, say it.

[Pete Holmes]

So on the special, Justin demonstrates that he can say where you're from based on your zip code.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

And we're talking about Harry Lorraine, who did his own version of that. But it's way. It's actually way different. It's like, you tell me your name, I'll remember your name. And he would do it with a thousand people. And then he wrote a book called the Memory.

[Justin Willman]

He had a bunch Mind power now or something. A bunch of memory.

[Pete Holmes]

And he talks about the Memory palace.

[Justin Willman]

Yes, yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And I read that book, and I used to do it. I would memorize the 50 states in alphabetical order. And the way that you would do it is you'd make some sort of story between one thing and the other thing. But what you're doing, again, I'm not looking for the technique. 40,000 zip codes.

[Justin Willman]

41,000.

[Pete Holmes]

41,000.

[Justin Willman]

41,001. It fluctuates a little bit sometimes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, 41,000. So Val and I are watching, and I'm like, this isn't a trick. This is a feat of strength.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

He's doing a thing. Is that correct?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I do it with you without you feeling on the spot?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Pete Holmes]

9302-393023-93023.

[Justin Willman]

Ojai, California. Cheers. So what is happening four blocks from your house? There's a sound bath, I believe. Right?

[Pete Holmes]

That's fantastic. The Starbucks is a good three miles.

[Justin Willman]

Yes, yes, exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

So that is a feat of strength. You're doing. You're walking on fire for a little bit.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You're doing a 41,000 zip code.

[Justin Willman]

Memory Palace. Memory Palace Mnemonic. Little mnemonic thing.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, it can't be a memory palace.

[Justin Willman]

Not really memory palace. There's a. I don't even know what's called.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like people that memorize PI kind of like that.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

There's a. Obviously they're designed to be memorable in some way.

[Justin Willman]

Correct. Whereas PI is not. Pie is not random non Review.

[Pete Holmes]

But people do have, like a weird affinity towards PI.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And you. When did you notice. When did you first consider all nine.

[Justin Willman]

Kinds of pie that Harold loved best?

[Pete Holmes]

When did you first consider. This will be my thing. Really? When you were like, 14?

[Justin Willman]

Well, it was the thing I was obsessed with as a teen, but then I was doing colleges, I was doing naca, and, you know, that was that first time I was feeling like I'm a professional magician. You know, I'm traveling around the country, renting cars and so excited to hit all 50 states and would start going to these places that I was like, oh, yeah, hold on, I remember. I remember this name of the city or. Oh, that's how you pronounce it. I never even knew that, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Justin Willman]

Eau Claire. Eau Claire, I was going to say. Exactly. So that's where it kind of became part of the act a little bit. Sprinkling it in.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. And people, like, they love remembering where they're from and, you know, being seen for where they came from.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that's the brilliance of it, too. So much of what you're doing is anchored in a feeling, I guess, like, zip code place. Like, people have T shirts that have their zip codes on them or like, you know, like the shape of their state that says home or whatever.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, so there's a feeling when you're designing a trick. Are you thinking of, like, how can I tie this? How can I anchor this in some sort of something wet like being a father or like economics or. That's the same trick, but you know what I'm saying, Like, are you deliberately going, like, yeah, it's a good trick, but there's no heart to it.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Because magic, I think, inherently is so unrelatable, at least in terms of, like, what goes into it. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Willman]

The world is so normal. Like, our days don't defy the law of logic and physics. So if I can make this. And. And you don't want to know all the real human things that went into creating that final product.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

So if I can make the presentation of that final product about something that you totally do identify with. I think then that makes this. This foreign art form, you know, somewhat personal to them.

[Pete Holmes]

Right? Yeah, I'm not. Well, it's just like, I always, whenever I watch, like, a Fast and furious movie, how they really go far and away to let you know it's about family and, like, chosen family and stuff. But those franchises are huge. And it's because, like, cars and fast cars and fights are cool, but if you can anchor it, you know what I'm saying? So, like, I think something similar is going on that I could learn from. I need to remember, like, what's at the core of this and what do people want to think about and remember. Because people like knowing you're a dad and people like knowing. Even the using the kids at the end. Not that you're being manipulative. I'm just saying how beautiful to use kids at the end. God damn it. It was so good. Here's a question that. Well, we'll see how it goes.

[Justin Willman]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think you're gonna mind it. How much did it cost you to develop those effects in that hour? Let's start with the. The printer.

[Justin Willman]

Mm, that.

[Pete Holmes]

That. That can, I guess.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

$10,000 for the printer. I don't mean for the printer. I mean for the printer trick.

[Justin Willman]

To develop it.

[Pete Holmes]

To develop the technology.

[Justin Willman]

R D. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably about right. I would say an early version of the printer trick that I wrote with. With some of my magic brain trust for my, like, a Comedy Central pilot that I did 10 years ago. Sleight of mouth was, I would say, much, much less. A little more. Not as clean of a version.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

In terms of. Toss a disc, really, anybody, you know, could catch it and I could pull this thing off. Yeah. The most. The most, I would say expensive part is the making of the designing and making of that origami printer.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

You know? Yeah. That was a little more rudimentary at first, but got better and better. And. And you know that. I mean, there was a time where I was printing those out and cutting them by hand from FedEx Kinkos and 20 bucks a pop because it was like an 824 by 18 sheet of cardstock, full color paper. So it would cost me 20 bucks. I would be backstage it. I would be backstage, like, at the club, like, between shows, like, I forgot to build the late show printer. And I'm in Wise Guys and I'm, you know, cut paper dolls, you know, double stick taping, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

And then it's funny, I was just at Wise guys. Not the most private of green rooms.

[Justin Willman]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

You have a bunch of secrets.

[Justin Willman]

I do.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a very different thing if someone comes back to check if I would like sparkling water. But they could walk in on you doing a whole slew of.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Sacrificing a goat or something. Who knows?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Invoking the dark spirit.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly. I, you know, it's fun. Is that like the secrets. There's, you know, my carry on is so random. You know, this hanging bag of batteries and fake thumbs and LED lights and I think, no, somebody would. It's an overwhelming visual of.

[Pete Holmes]

It looks a little suspect.

[Justin Willman]

Gadgets, you know that. I mean, it's, they know some things there, but they don't know what they're looking for. Even if they've just seen me walk off stage. They're kind of like, I, I don't even know where to begin. Yeah. You know, because the, the real secret part is it doesn't lie within one. You know, you're not going to see a fake thumb and be like, that's how he did everything.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I mean? Right, right, right.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But you are going to see. It's funny that he said like, battery. There might be some strange black box.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

You just don't know what it is or what it does.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

You get stopped at the airport.

[Justin Willman]

I do, yeah. Yeah, always. And they go through the. I've got like a little pelican case with Rubik's cubes in it. Like, we gotta inspect these. What do you do? What do you do, by the way? I'm a magician.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you ever do tricks for them?

[Justin Willman]

If I'm really not in a rush, which is rare, I might do a trick just to prove it. Magic's the only profession you have to prove that it's what you do.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. Well, Chris Rock said that it's like when you do a late night show as a comedian, you're expected to be funny. When a magician, even worse, you're expected to be magical. But if Daniel Day Lewis does Charlie Rose, no one thinks he's going to be like Robin. Provocative.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Or, or mind blowing. He can just be like Daniel Day Lewis.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

He can be boring.

[Justin Willman]

He could be boring. You'd expect it. You'd be like, if he was funny, you might be put off a little bit.

[Pete Holmes]

Stay in your lane.

[Justin Willman]

Wow. Or if he was magical, you'd definitely be weirded out.

[Pete Holmes]

Unexpected magic. Very difficult. I, I think we've probably talked about this. The natural curve of the foot. And when you Pick up a coin and you slide it under your foot. That's the magic trick. Everyone.

[Justin Willman]

So good.

[Pete Holmes]

Everyone should know that trick. It's the best trick.

[Justin Willman]

I love that trick. You drop a coin just.

[Pete Holmes]

I'll drop a coin to do it.

[Justin Willman]

I.

[Pete Holmes]

My nephew is just visiting you. Yeah, there it is.

[Justin Willman]

You know you did it.

[Pete Holmes]

Just a big thing.

[Justin Willman]

I did it with a big thing. Yeah. You can work your way up. Work up your gauge.

[Pete Holmes]

Is that what it's called?

[Justin Willman]

No. I don't know.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm looking for the lingo. Yes. I did it for my nephew two days ago. It. It's my favorite thing in the world. Although, talk about the prestige. I never know what to do when it's just under my foot. I'm just kicking it into a bush.

[Justin Willman]

Pete's still standing outside. Pete, we. We're having dinner.

[Pete Holmes]

No. Pardon the interruption, weirdos. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Element lmnt. Healthy hydration isn't just water. It's water and electrolytes. And for years now, element has been a big part of my morning routine that I look forward to because it is delicious. It is no nonsense. That means no sugar, no weird crap. It is stevia sweetened so it's only 5 calories and it tastes amazing. So I'm drinking more water because I can add my element to it. But it's also the optimum ratios of potassium, magnesium, and sodium that floods every cell with healthy hydration and makes me feel fantastic and ready to start my day. It gives my brain this jolt, this juice that I feel, all this interconnectivity up there, and it gets rid of fatigue, it gets rid of cramps, and it just makes you feel fantastic. Hydration is everything. And you can try it. You can go to drinklmnt.com weird and when you use promo code weird, you'll get a free sample pack of elements most popular flavors. That's two packs of citrus, two raspberry, two of watermelon, and two of orange salt so you can find your favorite element flavor. And you can also try their sparkling, which sometimes we're drinking here on set, which I absolutely love. Support your body. Support this show. Go to drinklmnt.com weird and get your free sample pack with any purchase. That's drinkelement.com weird. We're also brought to us by our friends at Ritual. I've seen so many TikToks going around about people talking about big secrets, proprietary formulas, the go to supplement. But it makes me wonder what is real and what is snake oil. And I am so happy to say that Ritual is the most reputable and transparent company that I found. I've sworn by them for years. I love their essential for men 18 plus multivitamin because it is science backed and made with traceable and bioavailable key ingredients. They share their source, their supplier and the scientific research backing each active ingredient. So you know what you're getting and you know what you're putting in your body and you know why. As I say every week, I love the gaps that it fills in my diet. I saw the difference in my blood work before I took Ritual and after. I love that it's gentle on my stomach when I'm fasting because it has a delayed release capsule which also means it's getting into your lower intestine which is where it can actually be absorbed. We're talking about gaps like vitamin D, omega 3, DHA, 10 key nutrients in two delayed release capsules designed for optimum absorption per day. Get Ritual into your life. Feel ready to start your day. Essential for Men is a quality multivitamin from a company you can actually trust. Get 25% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com weird that's ritual.com weird for 25% off your first month. Last but not least, we're brought to us by our friends at Modern Mammals. For years I wasn't washing my hair. That's how I made it look good because I wanted the natural oils in there. The only problem is after a week of that, you could drag your comb through it. It was like wet cement. It's disgusting. It's horrible. You got to clean your hair. But shampoo dries it out and fries it out. Enter Modern Mammals. The non shampoo shampoo that cleans your hair like shampoo but won't dry it out like shampoo shampoo. You guys know I work with this company. I love this company. I found them first as a fan. That's why we do these social campaigns together and this on the podcast. But I am a believer. People text me all the time, is that shampoo really good? And I say hell yes. Modern Mammals cleans your hair, but it doesn't dry it out, leaving it all fluffy and poofy and hard to manage. It leaves just enough natural oil in your hair to make it look perfect every single time. Six seconds to perfect hair. I'm hooked for life. Go to modern mammals.com weird and you can try both products. The bar, which is like a daily maintenance bar, which I absolutely love. And the bottle, which is their magic mud. More of their standard shampoo. Feel both of these things for $44 and they last a really, really long time. Go to Modern Mammals dot com. Weird. All right, back to the show. Remember the story about Ricky J. Went to dinner with that reporter. He had been telling her about the ice block trick.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Their menus were up. And then he lifted it up and there was a block of ice on the table, and it wasn't melting.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It was a sunny day. Although, is there a term for that, how people make tricks better in their memory?

[Justin Willman]

Oh, what is that?

[Pete Holmes]

There's got to be a term for that.

[Justin Willman]

I think. Let's just call it when people make tricks better in their memory, which is.

[Pete Holmes]

One of the wonderful. I'm sure we have it with comedy, too. Like, they go like. And it was about this. But it wasn't. But we will watch a trick. And if. If your inner child is alive and well, if your wonder radar is good, I might tell the story of the trick and say, and he didn't even touch the box.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

But you did. But you also just barely touch it or whatever it is. But we'll make it better in our mind. So she added the detail. He lifts up his menu, there's a block of ice on the table. And then things like. And it wasn't even melting. We're like, we can't be sure about that because you were crying. You know what I mean?

[Justin Willman]

You know, it's so funny that audiences will make a magic trick better in the retelling, but rarely will they ever make a joke better in the retelling.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no, no.

[Justin Willman]

And if they do, you got problems.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, good. Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Then it's not that great. Or they're a genius and they need to be on your team.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. But there's a lot to that that I can't fully exploit on a film special. Obviously, like, there's little nuances that. That live in the seat. You're so easy to misdirect, you know, that you just don't remember. But on tv, when you watch it, you're seeing the whole picture, you know, But. But yeah, it's. It's an interesting psychological. Like, I think people want. If they're retelling it later, they want to. They want to tell it so that you say, how the heck did that possible, you know, I'm not telling you so that you tell me how he did it.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm going to ask. There's a moment in the special I'm trying To include everybody in this conversation if they haven't seen it. But there's a moment in the special where you ask a guy where he's from. It's during the zip code thing, and he accidentally says the city where he's from. On a scale of 1 to 10, how disappointed would I be to know how you do that?

[Justin Willman]

How disappointed would you be? Maybe five.

[Pete Holmes]

Really?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I think you would.

[Pete Holmes]

Still wouldn't be a 10.

[Justin Willman]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Justin Willman]

10 being the most disappointed.

[Pete Holmes]

10 being so disappointed.

[Justin Willman]

10 being.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm not even.

[Justin Willman]

10 would be a plant.

[Pete Holmes]

10 is planned.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. No, so not planned.

[Pete Holmes]

5.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm amazed. Yeah, I'm mad.

[Justin Willman]

But there is something to the. The. The. The lingo I use there.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Well, that feels like a Darren Brown give me your phone kind of thing. Do you know him?

[Justin Willman]

I do.

[Pete Holmes]

Would you agree that it's legit that he gets people to give him his phone?

[Justin Willman]

I would.

[Pete Holmes]

Now I'm having you talk out of school.

[Justin Willman]

I. I haven't. I don't know if I've seen this specific video, but I've seen ones where he.

[Pete Holmes]

It's in a crowd, and he find. He goes, magic is everywhere. And, you know, but it's. It's literally. It's a very, very busy day in London. And he goes. He finds somebody on their phone. This is why I think it's legit, is they're, like, dazed. And he goes, give me. Well, this would be key. I'm gonna make the trick better than it was. But he goes, can I. Can I have your cell phone? And you don't mind if I keep this? I'm gonna keep this. And the guy's like, sure. And then he walks. And then he stops and comes back and gets it. But he does, for about 15 seconds, give a guy his cell phone. And I'm like, yeah, people are pretty unconscious, like on autopilot, maybe. But you see, I'm a believer.

[Justin Willman]

I would say not really knowing what he's actually doing, that there is a likelihood that a certain number of people will just do that, you know, based on the way he's doing it and saying.

[Pete Holmes]

And then you film it.

[Justin Willman]

Variables. There's probably things that he could goose the dependence, goose up the reliability of that a little bit, you know, because he's also a hypnotist. You know, he's also got a lot of, you know, nlp, like the. All these things. I think that's what's nlp. Neuro linguistic programming.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Justin Willman]

You know, the way people can, you know, build rapport mirroring.

[Pete Holmes]

Right, right.

[Justin Willman]

You know, just touching, tapping.

[Pete Holmes]

And that's not just.

[Justin Willman]

That is not. That is, you know, a psychological tactic that I think can help. Yeah, certain things. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

But I would say, like he can get people to forget their name. You know, I'm sure there's a miss rate too. There's.

[Pete Holmes]

The greater the risk.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly. The greater the reward.

[Pete Holmes]

I was gonna say the greater the risk, the more noble you are as a performer to try doing it.

[Justin Willman]

Which is quite a reward if you think about it.

[Pete Holmes]

So you're goosing that guy. It's only goose. And thank you for answering that question. So you got the special and has this. I mean, I saw on Netflix. It's got like a most liked. Which I've never even seen before. I've seen like recently released or top 10, but this one, like people are watching it and liking it. Taking a moment to be.

[Justin Willman]

I guess it's a thumbs up thing.

[Pete Holmes]

I give it the double thumbs.

[Justin Willman]

The double. Thank you. The super like.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I dropped one. It's a dumb call, but like. So people. I think what's happening is people are watching it being blown away. And then like it seems, it really seems to me we're like more of this. You know what I mean? Like, like when I watched it, I said to Val, I go, it's so much better that I said it than stand up. I was self deprecating. I was like, this is so much better than what I do. I'm not even putting myself down. And Val was like, no, laughing is magical too. But I was like, it's just so amazing. I was like, it really is. I can see why people are stepping out and going and liking it and going like, please. We didn't even know we wanted this, but we want this, right? Yeah. And I'm wondering if it's. Is it shifting that you already had a wonderful career, but are you feeling like a big.

[Justin Willman]

I'm feeling an appreciation from this that is more pure, I think, than anything else. I've done any TV series where there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen and there's some episodes that somebody might like and some that they don't like. There's a lot or maybe they don't like that person that you're interacting with. There's something. I felt like this was my chance to finally do, do the thing I've always wanted to do and get it, you know, that I'm finally at a place in my life where I was ready to be given that opportunity. But There's. There's a. There's like a pure just. I don't know, there's something about when you have something that is. They can watch it with anybody. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

No, you smashed it.

[Justin Willman]

There's like a. You know, I've always kind of run away from wholesome. You know, magic is inherently kind of wholesome. And I think I've always been wanting to be. Be extra edgy, to shake up that wholesomeness. And I think now as a, you know, as a dad and now a grown up who realizes, you know, you don't need to put on a whole, you know, fake macho thing. Yeah, exactly. Less to prove that it becomes more authentic for me as my voice, but I think embracing what people naturally like about magic that maybe haven't been able to see it.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that's funny that you say that, because Val saw you do the hundred trick that you win a prize.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Which is where I cackled, so I'm not going to spoil it. But you. Let's just say you owe someone in the crowd $100 and you hold out again. This is not a. The force is not one that I recognize you. You hold up five cards in a plastic thing and you say, pick a. Pick. Your prize, which. And it's. Which one you pick is the one you get. So you can't go for, okay, we'll get rid of. He says, four, and you say, okay, four. I mean, off mic. I would maybe guess some theories, but we're not gonna do that. I'm just saying you turn it around and the one that he picks says selfie. And the other ones say $100. So I'm dying. Laughing. We pause and Val says when I. Well, it was actually after she goes, I saw him do that at Largo and it said anal.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. They want a hug.

[Pete Holmes]

What's that?

[Justin Willman]

Hug. You win a hug.

[Pete Holmes]

It wasn't anal.

[Justin Willman]

No. And then as I'm giving them a hug, we see that all the other ones said anal.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm sorry. It's so much better.

[Justin Willman]

It's pretty good.

[Pete Holmes]

It's so much better.

[Justin Willman]

It is all the other ones. I remember I was in Philly doing maybe it's a helium comedy club in Philly or something. And I remember, like, sitting up in bed at night and being like, anal. It's anal.

[Pete Holmes]

Such a funny word.

[Justin Willman]

It's such a funny word.

[Pete Holmes]

They could have picked anal, but they got a hug. So something wholesome is happening and something nefarious.

[Justin Willman]

And I'm not even Saying the word anal.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Justin Willman]

We're just. It's a reading joke.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a reading joke.

[Justin Willman]

And it's. Yeah. The sound the audience makes when I do the. The original version, man, it's just a different sound.

[Pete Holmes]

A big laugh.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, yeah. Just the. A laugh and, like a shock and, you know, then the slow readers get it, you know, a couple seconds later. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

What's a no? Exactly. So there's dirty versions of some of the chicks. But again, you already said it. But, like, I see why you were like, let's just do it for everybody. Let's just do the. For everybody. I'm soft. My act is still dirty, but, like, I'm softening a little bit. It's not from a place of, like, nobody tells me what I can't say. It's just like, whatever. I found to be the funniest, but I used to have more of a chip on my shoulder to be like, oh, you want me to be that way? Well, fuck you. But I feel we're almost exactly the same age. I think that's what happens. You start to soften a little bit. A little bit.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I.

[Justin Willman]

I don't miss it. I don't miss it either. Like, you know, doing. Doing jokes about whatever, Sex and weed, and I kind of don't miss it. I. I didn't ask to have a bunch of family show up at the show, but I'm like, it's such a fun vibe when it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel bad making it weird for him and now.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you do a lot of corporates? I feel like you're gonna do a lot.

[Justin Willman]

I do. I've always done a bunch I haven't done. I would love to do more. Yeah. But I. I do. I do enjoy doing them.

[Pete Holmes]

Get you more corporates.

[Justin Willman]

I'm like, yeah, I hope so.

[Pete Holmes]

Disney corporate. Yeah, that's Mars. Eminem corporate. That's.

[Justin Willman]

And I can rock a corporate. I do. I do. I do actually enjoy them sometimes.

[Pete Holmes]

Get the CEO up there and take his phone.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

That's the good.

[Justin Willman]

His work phone, you know. Exactly. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That's so good. But that is something. Is that the path now? Are you doing theaters? Are you doing.

[Justin Willman]

I'm doing theaters that are, you know, 1500, 1800 seats, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

But. But in certain markets, those are really hard to, you know, hard to sell. Like, of course. It's so strange sometimes, but, yeah, I'm seeing a little an uptick.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I hope so. Wait, didn't it just come out Though.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Like two weeks ago.

[Pete Holmes]

I feel like it's just, it's just got to keep building.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I'm excited.

[Pete Holmes]

I, I, it's got to, I'm trying.

[Justin Willman]

To figure out what you know, because then there's like, what's the bigger version of the show? You know what I mean? But there's part of me that's always kind of resisted big tricks for the sake of being big. You know, human sized tricks versus.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

You know, like everything you see except for the last bit in the show fits in a suitcase. You know, I mean, prop wise.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

I don't know what people. Yeah. Be interesting to see what people's expectations are for in that next.

[Pete Holmes]

It's funny that's been coming up a lot lately, like for me and artists is I'm like, we're not. Well, let's talk about it. I don't know if I have a conclusion. Sometimes I see people getting jammed up trying to one up themselves when I'm like, we would have been happy with like if you did a special very similar to that special in terms of fidelity, like size and you don't have the Statue of Liberty's head fall through the ceiling. I still would be, I think I would be very satisfied. I see people getting, taking longer to make stuff because we're kind of like stuck in this western. Like bigger, better. Every year has to be bigger, better. Every hour has to be bigger, better. Every gag, every set piece, everything needs to be bigger and better. I'm like, I don't know. I think you could, what you're doing is so excellent. I think as long as you just do stay true to that, I think it would be okay. Right?

[Justin Willman]

I think so. I bet you if I, if I did, I mean, if somebody talked me into doing something that right now feels unnatural, like something just bigger for the sake of being bigger. I feel like people would feel like it is sold out. We want the, you know, we want the unplugged set. You know what I mean? But like I love that comics can play stadiums and arenas. Right. I just, I wonder what the audience, if the audience would prefer just to see you in a theater where they are a little closer and they're not having to watch the screen the whole time.

[Pete Holmes]

Of course.

[Justin Willman]

Right. I mean like, maybe it's cooled. You know.

[Pete Holmes]

The best place to see a comic, Madison Square Garden in the round 75 rows back with people squeezing. To go back to the concept. It's a ball game at that point.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, look. Yes. Nobody's Asking me to play Madison Square Garden. So this could seem like it's upset or jealous or sour grapes or something. I, I, I think it's so cool when you can see them, when you're close. A thousand seats is still pretty intimate.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But once you're at 30,000.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean that. Yeah. I don't know. What, Doing a dollar bill trick for 30,000. It's kind of like that Steve Martin bit where he would. With the dime. I'm change the date on this dime. Yeah. Performing for stadiums of people.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm going to suck this piano into my lungs.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I still don't know what he does when he says that, because I've never seen him do it.

[Justin Willman]

Isn't that funny?

[Pete Holmes]

I only heard it on the record.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I'm talking about.

[Justin Willman]

I know exactly what you're talking.

[Pete Holmes]

And now I'm gonna suck this piano into my lungs.

[Justin Willman]

And then you hear like a.

[Pete Holmes]

And he goes there. And we're like, what? I still don't know what it was. I don't want to know.

[Justin Willman]

You'll never know.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I'll never know what it was. I'll never know.

[Justin Willman]

Tom Petty's from Florida.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Justin Willman]

I think about that all the time.

[Pete Holmes]

If you can write a joke that sticks with people, it's a good one. Do you still go to the Castle?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, every couple months or when somebody wants to go.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Willman]

I ran my hour at the Castle two weeks before we shot the special. I did the full palace show myself and did 21 reps in there, which was really helpful, really, you know, because, you know, touring and doing, you know, three or four shows a weekend then, but you're setting up and doing it again, different venue. Everything's a little. So much time is spent adapting your show to this weird, this new home, versus just you walk in, everything's set where you left it, and you can get back to the material, you know, so that was really nice.

[Pete Holmes]

That's great. And are you feeling embraced by the community?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It has to be like.

[Justin Willman]

It's been an interesting journey with the community.

[Pete Holmes]

Really?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

What. In what way?

[Justin Willman]

You know, magicians are a bit of a jealous bunch, you know, and magicians have, you know, they, they, there's, there's plenty that magicians can find at fault with other magicians and, you know, other magicians who are seeking, seeking the spotlight, you know, and more so probably even than comedy, just because I think there's fewer. There's fewer that break through.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

You know, you can have a bunch of favorite comedians, but people rarely say, like, let me tell you, of all my favorite magicians, no one's ever said.

[Pete Holmes]

If you can name three magician magicians.

[Justin Willman]

Living magicians, you're incredible. Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Harry. No. Who? No, David. Exactly. I ever tell you. Okay, let's get back to that. Did I ever tell you this story? When David Copperfield is doing his Vegas show, somebody told me that they mute his mic when he's not doing the act because it's so dialed in that he'll do an act part of the act. He'll be like. And this woman is going to be transported, if we believe. And then they meet him and he goes, caesar salad, chicken. No, ahi, tuna. Like, he can just yell his lunch off.

[Justin Willman]

He's multitasking. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

He's thinking about what he wants to eat after the show because he's done it so many times.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

How badass. And kind of like it's two things at the same time. It's a guy wanting a salad and a guy making a person disappear. And that is comedy to me.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

He's, like, making us think, this woman might die in a tub full of eels.

[Justin Willman]

And we can see his lips moving, too. We're like, oh, he's reciting the.

[Pete Holmes]

The chant, the incantation.

[Justin Willman]

That's how it works.

[Pete Holmes]

Looks like Caesar with ahi. Don't order Caesar with ahi. A woman will die. Okay, so that's really interesting. I've never really considered that in magic. How many that level magicians are there? It might be five. That's just a totally random guess. And. But yet there's still hundreds of aspiring magicians.

[Justin Willman]

And there's a lot of great magicians.

[Pete Holmes]

And a lot of great ones.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And then they might get bitter. So this is where the jealousy kind of kicks in. Yeah, well.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I think like a tall, poppy kind of thing, you know? You know that. That phrase. I heard this when I was in Australia, that Australians kind of, you know, give people like Australian actors and comedians who come to the States and become big, you know, because the tall poppies, you cut them. You cut them off. A field of poppies. Flowers is more beautiful when they're all uniform. Right. So anyone tries to rise above the rest, they try to cut them down. You know what I mean? So I think they. They call, you know, that the tall poppies are like, you think. What, do you think you're better than us? You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. You think you're worthy.

[Pete Holmes]

The whole hometown can sometimes feel.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But now, but now it's.

[Justin Willman]

And I mean, I probably deserve, like doing material that maybe wasn't acting like I was all that, but doing material that was, you know, that magicians maybe know is more derivative. You know, that disconnect. I was maybe worthy of a little bit of eye roll, but. Yeah. But now I feel a lot of love, probably.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, you tell me, it seems to me to be a magician or comedian and let's just call that an entertainer. To be an entertainer, you almost have to have a certain swagger that could be off putting, especially when you're not very good yet.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, I remember when I was an open micr, we all had websites. It was like www.steve, like whatever, funnysteve.net and it was like flames and guys got four minutes. But like, you kind of need that to, to embolden you to keep trying.

[Justin Willman]

Even if we don't even have, like, we don't. We kind of quell that swagger. You. You still have it in your head because if you're, if you're, if you're trying for that thing, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Justin Willman]

We all think we're crazy enough to be worthy of.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Justin Willman]

People who we've never met knowing who we are. Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I'm with you. That's why I remember in the documentary Comedian, the reason why Seinfeld liked Ornie Adams was because he didn't keep those thoughts to himself. So he was the transparent comedian.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But he was like, that's how we all feel when we're starting out is. Is we kind of think maybe we'll be great, but you should keep it to yourself. So now was that because you started developing your own stuff and all that, or just got better?

[Justin Willman]

I think I just got better. And then, you know, building a body of work and then enough time happens where, I mean, David Blaine, when it first came out, magicians hated it, really hated him. Thought he just couldn't believe how famous he got for doing tricks that they could buy at the magic shop. Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And.

[Justin Willman]

And I was probably guilty of that too. I mean, I was like 14 or 15 when it first came out, but I was, I was like, I do. I do that trick. Why is he like, you know, it just didn't make sense.

[Pete Holmes]

He kind of saw an opportunity, to be honest.

[Justin Willman]

Well, yeah, he. But I think no one missed.

[Pete Holmes]

No one had filmed Cigarette.

[Justin Willman]

No, no, no. No One had even thought to do it on the street funny.

[Pete Holmes]

No, look, and I love David Blaine. This isn't me dragging him. I'm just saying he was the first magician to go, I'm going to film it. I'm going to film me doing literally, a trick that every magician starting out will get that trick and do it. But he will do it very well, very convincingly. He was an actor, like, as a really. I'm magic. Like, I'm not pretending I'm not magic. I am magic. And I'm going to make you love the folding quarter. And people will lose their shit, but I could see. So I'm not surprised that magicians hated it because you all have that trick.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And what. But, you know, I think what we missed that now I realize is what he did, is he. After the trick, he got out of the way and the camera's still rolling, and he's just letting us as viewers see how powerful magic is, the effect it has on people.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And he somehow knew that that was the best part. That was the show.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

Is, you know, you don't cut when the trick's over. You let it simmer there.

[Pete Holmes]

That's another. We sometimes get too obsessed. We get obsessed with the wrong thing. You know what I mean? And he did go like, no, it's about this. That is the genius.

[Justin Willman]

Right?

[Pete Holmes]

That for sure.

[Justin Willman]

But now he's beloved by magicians. You know, even Penn and Teller, they.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

You know, because they didn't like him at first. No. But they. They were despised, too, by magicians. Oh, they were despised because they, you know, part of their. Their. Their. Their signature shtick is that they would give away some of their tricks, you know, in the process of. In the process of the show, you know, and magicians just thought that that was a line you don't cross. And now they're, you know, the godfathers.

[Pete Holmes]

Of magic and judging the show.

[Justin Willman]

And judging. Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, it's that tall, poppy. But then if you're. We just grow to accept it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. Well, once you get trimmed, you have to grow faster.

[Justin Willman]

You have to grow faster and keep going. Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow, that's interesting. What is it like performing for other magicians? Do you like it or not like it? I have to imagine it'd be the worst.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, it's. Well, yeah, So I did my. This hour at a magic convention in February, and it's the worst. If you're expecting. Like, I knew I've done it enough to know that the laughs and the, like, it's gonna come very different than a regular audience, you know. So they're laughing, they love the jokes that are about. They're self deprecating about being a magician because that's relatable to them especially. Yeah, exactly. They laugh harder at that.

[Pete Holmes]

Great joke, by the way.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you. Thank you. The jokes about just fatherhood and life, they're, they don't laugh at because they're. I think in a sense they're kind of like, like it just didn't give them. It wasn't about magic and there wasn't a trick. So it's kind of like not what they came for, you know what I mean? And the magic tricks themselves, they, magicians react. I'm thinking how to explain this? Like lay people will react at the climax of the trick but magicians, if they know where this trick is heading, will you'll hear an audible recognition of the move that makes that climax happen if it was done really, really well. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

I think I know exactly what you.

[Justin Willman]

Just like dropping the coin, going to pick it up like before I've even shown it, it's gone. But she's like already like I'm going clean, you know, Cap. Yeah. And I didn't even make it vanish. And you're like, you did it with a cat.

[Pete Holmes]

Right, right. We're already there, we're ahead.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly, exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Comedian. Yeah, Same sort of thing. Oh, that's really interesting. But they will give it up.

[Justin Willman]

They'll give it up. They'll give it up. Yeah. But you can tell there's a lot of wheels in their head going, you know, like they get, get in the way of leaping to their feet or you know, like really just being free.

[Pete Holmes]

With their comedians going, that's funny.

[Justin Willman]

It's exactly, ah, you know. Exactly. That's good. Exactly. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Or I forget who is it? Taryn Taran Killam would go. Melania would go. Yeah. That's how you knew something was funny.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It just made him think.

[Justin Willman]

Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Okay, one last dork out question about your final trick in the special. It's so obvious. But I really want to know. Obviously the word is different every show. Get the fuck out of my face.

[Justin Willman]

Well, there's only if people watch the special, there's, there's certain words that, that tick all the boxes that need to be ticked for it to be a contender for that.

[Pete Holmes]

I see.

[Justin Willman]

You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

The wheel can only spell this many.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. The. Well that's also the, the yeah. The animals that I happen to choose to be.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Justin Willman]

Part of those 12. Yes. And the. The numbers that can link up with a place without spoiling anything. You know, like, there's a. There's a couple boxes.

[Pete Holmes]

Dead.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I'm dead.

[Pete Holmes]

I really can't believe you've done that show. The show has the feeling of you filming something. A miracle. That's how it feels like. I can't believe they were filming the one.

[Justin Willman]

The one time when that worked. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I can't. When you're like, I did feel that way. I ran it 70 times at the Castle. I'm like, I just can't believe you've done it more than once.

[Justin Willman]

Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

And if you were doing it live, like a residency, I would go every night. I would go every. Not out of appreciation, not never to be like, gotcha. But I can't stop thinking about it. I would want to see you in every possible variant of that show.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you. That's. You know, I read part of this book. God, what is it? This comedy book where he talks about boom mic moments. Like, you know, like when the boom mic slips into a TV show and it takes you out of that.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Justin Willman]

That illusion. You know, or just as a comic talking about, wow. The early show thought that one was funny. Like, the illusion that this isn't just for them, you know? Right, right. And I think he was using like a. There's a Chris Rock special where it's intercut. Like the same special, but intercut over many different venues.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. No, me gust.

[Justin Willman]

And you're kind of just like, subtly reminding the audience that, oh, this happens all the time. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And so predictably that we can edit midway through a joke and connect these words.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And I experiment. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But it wasn't for me.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

The. The intercut.

[Pete Holmes]

It didn't work for me.

[Justin Willman]

Got it.

[Pete Holmes]

It took me out of it.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

But I'm a comedian, but I don't know how other people.

[Justin Willman]

So, like, I think with. With magic on top of that, I. Because there's enough unlikely things happening if. If I remind the audience that I have engineered these things to happen consistently. It's kind of like I want them to feel like they were there. The night that you lined up. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You achieved something. I can't. And Darren has that great special, the Beach Ball. And I mean, there's. It's an incredible special. It didn't have as many. But wait, that guy, he offered it. You know what I mean? Like, that happened without Justin asking. It was really organic. And that. That's something I didn't even know when looking at a magic performance, that one of the metrics is how out of control was the. Like, jazz.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, I'm sorry, but, like, somebody driving by, honks their horn, and the trumpet player incorporates that into their solo is a different kind of art. It's still the song, it's still the solo, but you're listening to this thing. I was like, you really? Unbelievable.

[Justin Willman]

Thanks, Pete.

[Pete Holmes]

It's so good.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't have anything you want to do today, do you?

[Justin Willman]

I don't have anything other than a knowledge of zip codes for you.

[Pete Holmes]

You don't have to do any trick, but if you had something, I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to miss it. I wouldn't want to miss it.

[Justin Willman]

Does Katie have a zip code for me?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Do a zip.

[Justin Willman]

94903. 94903. San Rafael, I believe.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Justin Willman]

There we go. Okay. That's where you're from.

[Pete Holmes]

That was truly incredible.

[Justin Willman]

We're due for another magic castle visit. Pete. It's been 10 years.

[Pete Holmes]

Val was like, do you remember when we went. I was like, of course I remember. That's your. Is that your wife?

[Justin Willman]

That was my wife, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I was talking to my wife Jill, about it, and she goes, I don't know. I don't know if they were even official then.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what I'm saying.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a long time.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Our kids weren't around.

[Justin Willman]

Weren't around then.

[Pete Holmes]

And now you have a kid?

[Justin Willman]

Two.

[Pete Holmes]

Two. I'm sorry.

[Justin Willman]

And you have two.

[Pete Holmes]

I have the one.

[Justin Willman]

You have the one?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

How old is he?

[Pete Holmes]

So hard to say. That's my joke. You can use it.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, that's.

[Pete Holmes]

That's my pattern. You can use it. I think it comes up to say I've. I've been dialing that in when people say, how old is your baby? And I go, it's so hard to say.

[Justin Willman]

So hard to say.

[Pete Holmes]

I've been trying. I go, you know, I don't know. That was. I tried that for months. Didn't really work. Val was like, people don't like that. But it's so hard to say is the most reliable one. It's a girl, and she's six and a half. Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Oh, wow.

[Pete Holmes]

The thing.

[Justin Willman]

My friend Jack is six and a half. Yeah. Isn't it October?

[Pete Holmes]

She's September.

[Justin Willman]

September. She's a month older than him.

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Justin Willman]

Wow. Cool.

[Pete Holmes]

I just can't even talk about it. I love my daughter, so obviously, it's.

[Justin Willman]

So fun but it's just. Doesn't it feel like she's been sick forever, though?

[Pete Holmes]

Now, six is a long one.

[Justin Willman]

I feel like I. I say my son's been six for six years.

[Pete Holmes]

It feels like it's finally stretched out. Like the chaos of the first five makes time go away. But we've been enjoying six. Am I hearing you correctly?

[Justin Willman]

For sure.

[Pete Holmes]

I was going to say this is my daughter and I love this about her.

[Justin Willman]

I.

[Pete Holmes]

Obviously, I wouldn't change a thing, but if I do silly voices when we're reading a book or if I. I love improvising songs and she's starting to kind of like my songs or if I do magic, she isn't blown away. She's.

[Justin Willman]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

She's so used to it is the thing. And I'm wondering if you run into that because you're magic dad. Are they kind of like, all right, or are they in. Do they love it?

[Justin Willman]

He loves it. But he wants to know how he knows that there's a trick. He knows enough about. About his dad. He knows that there's a thing Leila does.

[Pete Holmes]

We're doing this all day, every day. I'm just going just. But she can't quite get it.

[Justin Willman]

You're trying to teach her.

[Pete Holmes]

Just trying to get her to do that one. And when she does it, the problem with her is I'll show it to her, then she'll right away want to show somebody. And I'm like, it's missing that. And I'm sure we talked about this the last time you were on. But like, I love the lab of it. Like the. You're alone in your bedroom, just imagining a potential of learning something smoothly enough and. And then the first time you do it to a person. Yeah, I'm like that. Like, I don't. I'm not trying to be that anticipation. You know what I mean? We're all running up to, like, sex. Like, we just want the applause that. Let's call that the sex. But like, it's the making the meal and pouring the wine and lighting the candle that's like. That makes everything better. So my daughter, I think being more of the instant gratification generation already. I remember the 80s, the quiet solitude of trying to practice something. I'm sure you do. Does that bring anything to you?

[Justin Willman]

Very much so.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

But we also. Yeah, we also had fewer options for entertainment then we. But yeah, when a trick works right away, there is something. When you're just discovering magic, it's nice to have a trick that. So you can feel that feeling and get, get hooked, get bit by the bug right away. Otherwise it is very discouraging.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what she has that she likes is. This isn't a spoiler. You can go to any magic shop.

[Justin Willman]

This isn't an ad either.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not an ad.

[Justin Willman]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Element drinklementt.com and no, it's this little. How it favors the Caucasian. It does a magic shop, but there's like a. It's like a little light up thing.

[Justin Willman]

Yes, yes.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I'm talking about. So it makes light.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

And you throw it to this one, you throw it back. You can eat it. Take it out your ear. My daughter got into that.

[Justin Willman]

That's a good one.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, this is a. That's an easy. No curve. It's just kind of your imagination. You want to throw it up and catch it. That's a great first trick.

[Justin Willman]

Poop it out.

[Pete Holmes]

Poop it out for the late show.

[Justin Willman]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Or the, or the coloring book that you can flip.

[Justin Willman]

That's a great one.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, these are, these are the.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Early, early ones. But then when it comes to like, you know, memorizing the order of cards or something, who's. Do you think that's going to hurt magic? The fact that we have less of an attention span for magicians?

[Justin Willman]

I don't. Well, in terms of like, will there be enough people learning magic to keep.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Because if you want to learn a trick now, you want to learn the most amazing trick in the world. Nobody wants to learn.

[Justin Willman]

And we have access to that now. And you can look it up or, you know, dissect. You can look it. Yeah. And I didn't get. When I was a kid learning magic, I didn't get to see how it looked performed. I would read it in a book.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

And then based on the illustrations, kind of connect the dots, you know, and there'd be, you know, the, you know, the scripting that this performer might use. And I, I remember very often I would finally see a video of that and it was totally different than what I had pictured in my head, which I think was very good. I would have emulated the video if I'd seen the video.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

But instead I kind of accidentally came up with my own way of doing it.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

Which is great.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Justin Willman]

My son loves seeing me do magic, but he hates it when I'm trying to be funny or silly. He has sarcasm. His sarcasm bone is not kicked in yet. He doesn't.

[Pete Holmes]

He just wants the real.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Is that real? Is that. Did you really do that?

[Pete Holmes]

My daughter just started allowing me to make up stories.

[Justin Willman]

Huh.

[Pete Holmes]

She goes, I want a real one. She's like, and I want it where you get hurt. She loves stories where I get hurt. I don't know why she's compelled. It's the same reason we love high stakes stories.

[Justin Willman]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

She wants to know, did I ever cry? Was I ever sad?

[Justin Willman]

Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

But they were bleeding. Yeah, but like, if I go, like, can I tell you about the turtle that found its voice? And she's like, oh, God. Like, damn it. Well, is there anything we didn't cover? I feel pretty great about this.

[Justin Willman]

I feel really good.

[Pete Holmes]

I really just wanted to. I told you, we were texting. I was like, I'm just gonna gush about your special. I don't think I've seen a more perfect hour of entertainment.

[Justin Willman]

Wow. Thank you so much.

[Pete Holmes]

I can't. I'm gonna watch it again and again. I think it's unbelievable.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you so much.

[Pete Holmes]

Really, really proud.

[Justin Willman]

I'm very proud.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you have the next hour? Are you working on it?

[Justin Willman]

I've got maybe the next 45 or 50.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, nice.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, nice. Because when I tour, I do. I do 90.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay. Because I just like 30 out of this.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. I cut. Yeah. A couple bits that just didn't make it to tape night. And then there was a. One more. An encore that I shot but didn't do. That was a tearjerker about. About my mom.

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Isn't it weird that I said that?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And it. One of those things that I think really works when you're there in the room with me and you've. You've been on. Been with me for 90 minutes that just felt. It didn't. It didn't need it. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Can we just. For funsies.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

We don't have. This could be 30 seconds.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

What is. Let's do, like, just real quick. If we could do it, if anything was possible. What is the best magic trick in the world? Well, I know this is what you do all day, every day. What are we gonna do? What's our category?

[Justin Willman]

Survival. We gotta narrow it down, I think.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't think you can beat mentalism for me. If we're gonna like some like. That's what I'm saying. The wordle guy and the zip code guy and the randomness of the children. That's what made us cry when we watched it.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

And the three. So we don't have to do that. We don't have to build a showstopper, but like, we could Even say, what's the best card trick? I'll limit it.

[Justin Willman]

I'm trying to come up with, like, the opener is really hard, like, when you're coming in cold, you know? And the printer was always that great opener. Kind of. Kind of sets the tone. So I don't know what my new opener is.

[Pete Holmes]

I know because I put it on. I don't know, man. I was just like, I've never watched Justin on tape. And I was like, let's see what it's like. Like, I like this. I like this. But then when you crumpled it up, I was like, like, dead. And so in. Perfect opener is all I'm saying.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

Perfect opener. But how do you make a perfect opener? Yeah, it has to address. I know some of you aren't on board. It reminded me, Mike Birbigli has this great line that I've always been jealous of. Don't tell him I said that. Where he goes, I know you're. Some of you are excited, and I know a lot of you, when you told people who you're going to go see tonight, they said, who. So there's a disarming. It's like everyone just applauded. You're addressing, like. I know some of you are the plus ones. You came with the people that like magic. I want to address that tension. Yes, that is tension.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It's weird that they're like, that's me, right? Taping.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You came to my taping, and you don't like magic. So we're already excited. Then you do a trick and you tell them they're gonna see how I do it. But then, of course, you betray that in a very delightful way. So what are your thoughts on a new.

[Justin Willman]

I don't know. It's like, can I just do the same thing? Yeah, dude. It's a 3D printer made of paper, I guess. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Have you. Go ahead.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. I find that it's like the printer came out of a trick that I used to do where a box is hanging above the stage and the audience helps me write a tweet. So they give me a place, a celebrity, an activity, and then we lower the box and open it up and it says, all the stuff on paper. Yeah, on paper. And the YouTube comments were, there's a printer inside the box, which isn't how it worked, but enough people said that that I was like. Like, at first annoyed. Just like people saying, it's a plan. And then I was like, well, there's something there. You know, if that's where the smart people think. Yeah, it. How it's done. Let's. Let's lean into that.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, it's funny, Justin, but a.

[Justin Willman]

Blank page is hard to start with, you know, in terms of any trick possible. Anything in the world.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, let me ask you this. Just as now we're just too. This is. This will be the part of the show that's just for the magic dorks. Let's say you have the ability to make every card in a deck be the same card or blank. Or let's say you have that technology ability. Is it satisfying for me? You show me that they're all different, then you have me pick one, and then you show me that they're all that one. Is that fun? That doesn't feel that fun. And why doesn't it? Because it's amazing.

[Justin Willman]

I know.

[Pete Holmes]

This is what I'm trying to get at, the narrative even. So you just showed me there are 52 different cards. And then what if. What if I pick one face up? That's more fun. I pick one face up and everyone can see it's completely transparent. And then you swipe them away and then you pull them out and then you flip them over and they're all the same card. That now I'm. I'm more on board because it's less.

[Justin Willman]

Not as perfect anymore. So there's a little more process happening.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. And it was a face down for a moment.

[Justin Willman]

I think my head would say that the fact we saw that they were all different and then they're not. So my. Oh, they must be trick cards. Right. But if it was spread out face down and I said, pick any card. And you picked a card and you're looking at it and I say, was it the four spades? And you're like, no, it's a seven of hearts. What? Let me see. That's crazy. And then I spread them and we see that they're all the four of spades. Then it's like, how the heck did you pick the 7 of hearts then? So it's like I failed, but also like failed but succeeded. Succeeded. You know, which is interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Somebody. Okay, now you're. Now we're cooking. Because I saw somebody at the Magic Castle from behind the bar. He had people name. He dealt five cards and he had them name five cards. And they were the five cards. At least that's how I remember it. But the point is, like, I wasn't that attached to it. It was incredible. But there's almost like a blue balls feeling where you're like. But I don't know where to land in this trick. This is what we've been talking about. So it seems to me like a lot of magicians do the. Like, I failed, but I didn't. That almost makes it like a joke or a story.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

They have to be, like, rooted in some sort of story.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Well, so I'll tell you what I'm currently opening with and I. For the past month. And because I love. I love time travel. Right. Just that it feels like it's just one of those. I love time travel movies. I love, you know, what was that James Franco one where he went back to right before Kennedy was assassinated? 1120.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Like those. Yeah. So I was like, what is a time travel trick? That's not, you know, cheesy or. But. But. So I borrow a bill from somebody, $1 bill. We write down the serial number of it. No switching, you know, and somebody tells me the name of a. Give me, you know, a dog's name or name a fruit or something. We write that on the bill. And I say, I've got a time machine that I. That I. I think I've been saying that I made it. Or sometimes I've said, I got it off. Temu. Whatever. I don't know. I don't know the origin story of this time machine, but it's a.

[Pete Holmes]

You could have. I remember an old joke that I heard.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm gonna give you full disclosures. I saw somebody do this, so we can't really take it, but you go, I found a time machine next week. It's gonna be hard for me not say it.

[Justin Willman]

I'm gonna think of it every time.

[Pete Holmes]

I think you can say it. I kind of have a philosophy. Like if you saw something at an open mic 30 years ago. No, I've never done it, but I.

[Justin Willman]

Actually wrote that joke next year. You know, I did. I wrote it.

[Pete Holmes]

I was about to make the argument that you could take it, but I'm gonna stay true blue and say, you can't take someone else's joke. But anyway, there's that joke.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you. Well, I'll beat it. I'll try to beat it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, there you go. It'll open up the area.

[Justin Willman]

So I say, I'm gonna send this bill back in time. I can only send it back in time 24 hours, basically. Currently, it goes through this device and it vanishes. Okay. There's a version where it's in a clear plastic sleeve it goes through, and the sleeve comes out empty. I've got also this couple Tesla coils that I got off Amazon that I'm excited to play with. Anyway, so the bill's gone, and I say, went back in time 24 hours. I was just loading into this venue. I would have shot a cell phone video that I would have programmed to play right about now. And now we see a video of me on stage in the theater they're in right now. I say, hey, Justin. It's Justin. It's 24 hours. It's the night before your big show.

[Pete Holmes]

See that?

[Justin Willman]

The theater's empty. And then I get the bill. So the bill now is received by.

[Pete Holmes]

Me in the video.

[Justin Willman]

In the video. And we see that it says the word that she said that I wrote on the bill. And the serial number matches, right? And, you know, it gets a good. The crowd's kind of like, what? No way. They're probably thinking, like, is this an AI Video or something? And then I say, I'm going to send it back to you now. I take a Stanley Cup, I put it in the cup. I fill the Stanley cup with water, and I put it in this freezer that's on stage, and I shut it, and I say, this should be ready in 24 hours. Now we realize, like, oh, shit, that's the freezer that's to his left. You know, video ends. And then I walk over to the freezer, I open it up, and I tip out the Stanley cup, and it's a solid block of ice with their bill. You've done it, right?

[Pete Holmes]

You've done it. That's what. If you could do anything, that's what.

[Justin Willman]

You think you should do.

[Pete Holmes]

You've done it.

[Justin Willman]

Well, good. But I, I, I. I'm dead.

[Pete Holmes]

Just hearing about the trick made me very excited.

[Justin Willman]

It's so much fun because I think, like, if you could do anything, you know, you'd think it would be like, we'll teleport the audience back in time. Like, right? You can't take too big of a swing like that, you know, because then it's just. So I tried to figure out, like, what's the small, what's the. The little beta version of.

[Pete Holmes]

But you did it again. You're really highlighting the. The artistry of magic. I'm like, well, make all the cards or make them all disappear or read everyone's mind or, you know what I mean? It's like even Derek. Derek Delgado, who did. How am I blanking on it? I was gonna say as you were, that's not what it's called in and of itself. He has everyone pick a label for themselves. So it becomes very meaningful that he's like, thief.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

You know what I mean? Or like, lover, friend or whatever. Very sweet. But it has to be rooted in some sort of heart. This is the. This is the real magic of what you're doing. Time travel. You got us thinking about the past. Wouldn't it be nice if we can control it? The random.

[Justin Willman]

What would you do if you could?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Willman]

Tell yourself in the past, something.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow, that's a really great effect as a comedian. I'm like, it doesn't. And I know you know this. It doesn't address top of show.

[Justin Willman]

No, I know.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean. And it also seems, like, kind of long.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, remember when Bo Burnham opened a special where, like, the curtain comes up and he's there in a hoodie and there's plant, and then he walks out?

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. He says, get out of here.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't him. It's a great opener. Great opener because it's like, what if I was, like, Bo Burnham? But it's not him.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Quickest, fastest joke.

[Justin Willman]

Also, he does that bit where he rips his, like, workout pants off, and he's just got a duplicate pair of the same workout pants underneath. Like, just quick, quick, quick. Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Because at the beginning of the show, the tension that's being addressed is, I'm Justin. I'm magic. I'm better than you. I'm smarter than you.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

So you go, I'm gonna show you how it works. You're gonna show them that they're right, and then you're gonna show them that you're right. It has a. This. I'm gonna think about it. I don't know. I mean, you're so good at answering the question, what would you do if you could do anything? But then you're showing me the restraint and the artistry to pick what you should do to delight people. People.

[Justin Willman]

Well, this. I guess what came the initial kernel of that idea with the ice was that Ricky J. Story. I was riffing with Daniel Kino, who I bounce ideas with.

[Pete Holmes]

He.

[Justin Willman]

And he was. He was like, what. What can you do with that? Because it's such a legend. Right? Yeah. Making a block of ice appear in the middle of a. Of an interview. A dollar bill, you know. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Less time than it would take to freeze a dollar bill is fun. Very.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Because we all know how ice works.

[Pete Holmes]

We all know how.

[Justin Willman]

We all know you can't rush it boiling hard to rush. Freezing hard. To rush. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

What do we do with boiling? I'm dead, man. I was. Have you seen Nate Staniforth? Staniforth. Is that his name? Yeah, his lottery check.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Yeah, it's great.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you. He told me it cost him $10,000.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, I believe it. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I believe. Seen that trick.

[Justin Willman]

You saw him do it in person?

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't. I've never seen him do it in person. Actually, I saw him do it on. So this trick is. Nate has a lottery ticket in his wallet. By the way, Nate loves that. I've been trying to figure this trick out for 10 years. So this isn't talking out of school. Every once in a while, I'll text him a question. He'll either answer it or not. But there's a group of people around and he says, give me numbers between 1 and 100 or whatever. And then he has a lottery ticket in his wallet that is those numbers.

[Justin Willman]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

And it's insanely cool. And the only moment of opportunity is when he's taking it out of his wallet. And it's like a flat ass, squatted wallet.

[Justin Willman]

Yep. It's on a stool the whole time.

[Pete Holmes]

It's on a stool? Yeah. I saw him do it once where there was a mic and I'm like, is there a printer in the mic? All my guesses are stupid, but, man, I love that trick.

[Justin Willman]

It's so clean that he's able to make the presentation of the trick about, you know, his. His patter is about how this is going to keep you up tonight.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. And they throw the ball.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, they throw the ball.

[Pete Holmes]

You throw there. He's taking that and saying, you catch it and now you throw it. And then the next person. That's how he gets the five people. Because he was tired of people saying their plans. Exactly. Do you know how he does it?

[Justin Willman]

I do know how he does at least a version of it. Yeah, he wrote a book about it. Like, he's a book about that trick, right? Yeah. He explored, like every possible way he could do it.

[Pete Holmes]

What? There's a book.

[Justin Willman]

There's a book that. I don't think you can get it on Amazon or anything like that.

[Pete Holmes]

You have to go to the.

[Justin Willman]

To go to Nate Staniforth's house and get it. But he. Yeah. Published like a limited number of them. Just because I think with magic, you. Once you publish it, it is. It's. You're now on record historically. Is that. That is Nate Staniforth's trick. You know what I mean? It's like the irony of patenting an idea lets the secret go, you know? Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

This is me finding out. There's a book.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, he's written a couple. He wrote a great memoir too. About. About.

[Pete Holmes]

I read the memoir.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, I read the memoir. Here is Real Magic.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, it's a great book.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't know about the secret book.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Justin Willman]

Okay. Cats out of the bag.

[Pete Holmes]

Cat's out of the bag.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

In summation. Yes. Everybody watch Magic Lover. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. I love it so much.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you, Pete.

[Pete Holmes]

You're incredible.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you so much.

[Pete Holmes]

I think this is. It's an honor to know you.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you. I've been looking forward to this.

[Pete Holmes]

Me too. And this was a great chat. Thank you.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. So fun.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you want to say anything about the meaning of life or the hardest time you've ever laughed?

[Justin Willman]

Oh, man, you don't have to.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, you can though. I'm here for it.

[Justin Willman]

Do you? So the hardest I ever laughed and I laughed again the other day. Pretty hard just thinking about it. Maybe you've seen this trick where magician, typically, they get somebody out from the audience and I'm gonna make you a magician. You put this kind of modified tuxedo jacket on them where your arms look like their arms. You know, it's probably an old improv game too. And you're, you know, you're doing magic and they're kind of telling them how to had a facial expressions to do to make this funnier on magic for humans. We did it to a guy on a bunch of first dates where I was his. I was like behind the restaurant booth through holes. And I just remember this idea was like in the room. When we came up with this idea, we were just dying laughing because the idea that these girls, it's like a speed dating thing and they don't know that this is a bit. They just think it kind of looks weird. And it just was so funny. And then it was so funny to do and I was laughing so hard.

[Pete Holmes]

Multiple people.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, it was like a speed dating. Like you get two in the first round just to kind of hit it off. And I'm telling him what to say and what to do. This poor guy, he's just like my puppet and just doing the most, you know, some of the trick inappropriate. I'm shoving stuff in his mouth, mouth coils. And he's just going with it, making a bird appear. At one point, I think I just take out a ham sandwich and he eats it like no trick at all. And it was so funny to shoot. And then so funny to finally, even now, five years later, watching it back. So much so that I'm like, I need to put that bit back into my show. Because it's just. It was just so.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what we were talking about.

[Justin Willman]

So funny things.

[Pete Holmes]

You bring back a class.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah, yeah. I've never done it in my live show, so I think I will.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, that's fantastic. You know, Joe, we have to intercut it with the bit because that's a great clip.

[Justin Willman]

Great bet.

[Pete Holmes]

That's fantastic. Well, thank you very much.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

Pete, my friend. I'm honestly just. I don't know how to say it any more clearly. It's just. I'm blown away.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

You made incredible piece of art.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

And thank you.

[Justin Willman]

Pleasure.

[Pete Holmes]

Would you say keep it crispy?

[Justin Willman]

Keep it crispy.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm trying to remember my old zip code in Beverly.

[Justin Willman]

Beverly Bass. There used to be a MAT zero one.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no.

[Justin Willman]

There used to be the Cat Street Theater there.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's right.

[Justin Willman]

Yeah. Magic show LeGrand. David, did you ever go see that as a kid?

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Justin Willman]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay. You say a zip code, I'll tell you where it is.

[Justin Willman]

02116.

[Pete Holmes]

02116. Well, 02 is Massachusetts. 116 is Western Mass. No, Lyle. Massachusetts.

[Justin Willman]

It's Boston, I don't think.

[Pete Holmes]

Lyle.

[Justin Willman]

Lyle. It's Lyle Menendez.

[Pete Holmes]

Lyle. Lyle Menendez, Massachusetts.

[Justin Willman]

Lyle. Lyle. Crocodile. That's what I think of.

[Pete Holmes]

Thank you, my friend.

[Justin Willman]

Thank you, Pete.

[Pete Holmes]

So funny.