You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode Summary: Matt Berninger #4 (May 28, 2025)

Overview

In this candid, sprawling conversation, Pete Holmes welcomes back his dear friend and musical hero Matt Berninger (The National, El Vy) for a fourth appearance. With the release of Matt's new solo record Get Sunk as a backdrop, the episode plunges into topics of creativity, mental health, artistic process, spirituality, personal struggles, and the ever-present weirdness that defines both the show and its guests.

Berninger opens up in depth about his recent depression, the personal and professional "ships" he set afloat (including a now-award-winning house he built and sold without ever living in), and how insomnia and overwork forced him into an unexpected—and profoundly transformative—period of surrender. The episode also covers the contrasting creative vibes of his past and present, songcraft philosophy, the role of place and environment in creativity, the addictive undercurrents of touring and performance, the challenge and joy of setlists, the impact of Instagram and technology, and his distinctive approach to lyric writing.

Holmes provides effusive fan energy (and highlights just how much Berninger’s audience projects their own meaning onto The National’s lyrics), while both delve into spirituality, religion, AI, mushrooms, UFOs, and the big and little moments that make life (and art) weird and wonderful.

Episode Structure and Key Insights

1. Introduction and Friendship Vibes

• Pete introduces Matt as his favorite musician and dear friend.
• Quick praise for Get Sunk, Berninger’s new solo album, and a “completionist” recap (El Vy, Serpentine Prison, The National).

2. The Making of Serpentine Prison vs. Get Sunk

• Intentions & Home Life: Serpentine Prison was crafted as a "soothing record," inspired by Willie Nelson's Stardust and made for Matt's daughter.
• Light in Darkness: Though filled with dark themes, Berninger sees children respond deeply to darkness, citing his daughter’s love of “scary” parts in The Princess Bride.
• Songwriting Origins: The title track came from a real-life structure in Venice, CA; made playful, rhymey, "Dr. Seuss-y," even if built around dark ideas.
• Collaboration: Serpentine Prison was highly collaborative (involving Booker T. Jones and friends), while Get Sunk started mostly with Sean O’Brien and a small circle.

3. Coping with the Pandemic, Burnout, and Depression

• Project Overload: Before lockdown, Berninger was juggling an ambitious house build, TV project pursuits, multiple musical projects (including several for The National and friends), becoming creatively and financially overextended ("out over my skis", "Sword of Damocles" feeling).
• Pandemic as a Forced Pause: The lockdown came as both relief and crash—projects died suddenly, leading to a dark, depressive episode.
• Loss and Identity: The sale of his personally designed Venice house—his "greatest art project"—heightened his sense of loss. “It’s almost like making a record and never being able to listen to it yourself.” (16:04)

“I had to just unplug everything…I had to just burn down to rebuild, including the National, me, my ego, my projects, everything.” — Matt Berninger (22:33)

4. Depression, Insomnia, and Recovery

• Insomnia: More than depression itself, insomnia was the real agony—described as being "at the bottom of a well", seeing the light but being unable to climb out.
• Medication/Sleep: Medication (Xanax, Trazodone) plus sleep was the only effective start to recovery. Matt acknowledges the futility of well-meaning “sleep tips” from others.
• Letting Go of Control: Continues to process how his “captain of the ship” mentality leads to burnout and eventual resentment.
• Recalibrating: Once he stepped away, he realized others weren’t upset at his “sunk ships”—a deep lesson about self-imposed pressure and acceptance.

5. Creativity & Spirituality

• Religious Roots: Matt discusses his Catholic upbringing, current disbelief in a personal God, but deep connection to the philosophy of Jesus and Catholic ideals of kindness and bravery.
• Order, Disorder, Reorder: Holmes notes how both Berninger’s career and spiritual stories reflect the recurring pattern of construction, collapse, and rebirth.
• Existential Metaphors: Lively riff on superheroes, stories, and organized religion as responses to the fundamental mystery of existence.
• Divinity as Bravery and Connection: “God is bravery. God is your—make the brave choice. And that’s God talking.” — Matt Berninger (49:57)

6. Artistic Process, Performance, and Set Lists

• Live Performance as Communion: Both agree that shows are about creating a communal frequency, with the frontman channeling and reflecting the emotional energy of the audience.
• Setlist Logic: The National’s setlists are made primarily by Aaron and Scott (“I stay out of it”—Matt, 85:59), and reflect the band’s unique catalog, where every album has its fan base.
• Sustaining Creative Joy: Revisiting older songs brings fresh excitement, and the group avoids over-planning to preserve spontaneity. Even after thousands of performances, “every single I Need My Girl or Fake Empire, when they come up… I feel great about it.” (103:45)

7. Lyric Writing and Song Philosophy

• Collaborative/Fragmented vs. Crafted: Draws inspiration from Michael Stipe’s “blurry” lyrics (71:12), balancing abstract expression with crafted narrative (sometimes writing “Jackson Pollock” style, sometimes like a country song chandelier).
• Literal Writing on Baseballs: Matt writes lyrics on baseballs to slow down and break his phone habit (121:43)—combining tactile comfort and focus.
• Subconscious Process: Emphasizes letting lines flow, trusting “slush” and Freudian slips as a path to meaning.
• Blurry Resonance: “Our brains are so blurry, our hearts are so blurry,”—the resonance in unpolished, ambiguous lines. (71:55)

8. Place, Roots, and Creative Change

• Geographic Influence: Moves from Cincinnati → Brooklyn → LA → Connecticut have each deeply altered what and how Matt writes.
• Pastoral & Environmental Inspiration: Get Sunk draws upon childhood memories in Indiana and farm landscapes—from a distance, these roots come alive (“the world you’re in” fuels what you create).

9. Technological Disruption: AI, Social Media, and Art

• AI & Authenticity: Both agree: as AI-generated content rises, people will crave and cherish the unmistakably “human-made” in art and music.

“I always connect most to music that’s messy and filled with flaws.” — Matt Berninger (92:02)

• Instagram Addiction: Both discuss personal battles with social media dopamine cycles. Matt quit Instagram for two years to heal, but acknowledges its nuanced value for connection and learning (especially for younger generations).

10. Miscellaneous Weirdness, Spirituality & Imagination

• UFOs and Mushrooms: Brief musings on aliens, UFOs, and the theory that mushrooms are an alien intelligence already present on earth (“the closest metaphor to being visited by a higher intelligence.” — 135:59)
• Artistic Disruption: Berninger muses that “the best art is about to be made”—true artists will incorporate and react against technological trends, just as the camera didn’t kill painting.

11. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Pete’s effusive, meta fan commentary on the ambiguity of Matt’s lyrics and National songs, e.g.,
  • “It takes an ocean not to break— I know what that means to me, but I don’t think it means the same thing to three guys down or the lady next to him.” (70:38)
• On depression:
  • “It was a giving up to see what happens.” — Matt Berninger (23:38)
• On insomnia:
  • “Sometimes the anxiety when you can’t sleep and you’re tossing and turning, you can’t solve these problems because there aren’t any solutions.” (25:07)
• On artistic imperfection:
  • “Great singers have a hard thing to overcome when they’re so technically good. You trust the flaws.” (93:23)
• On songwriting process:
  • “The record versions of anybody’s music are like high school photographs…of what that song will turn into.” (102:42)
• On social media’s double-edge:
  • “I was never shutting off. When I think Instagram is a problem…you never shut off then.” (124:35)

12. Notable Timestamps

• 04:30 — Matt on Serpentine Prison, childhood, intention, Booker T. Jones
• 10:32 — Burnout, pandemic, “crash”
• 16:05 — Losing his house/art project; “crushing but wise”
• 22:33 — “Burning down” to rebuild, surrendering all projects/Ego
• 25:07 — Insomnia and the “well” metaphor
• 49:57 — “God is bravery”
• 61:27 — Post-tour decompression, Bono’s metaphor
• 67:51 — “National records are me climbing up that wall of that well. Yeah.”
• 71:12 — Michael Stipe’s lyric inspirations
• 85:59 — National’s set list process
• 92:02 — “I always connect most to music that’s messy and filled with flaws.”
• 121:43 — Matt’s baseball lyric-writing method
• 135:59 — “That’s the closest to a metaphor of being visited by a higher intelligence that we can.”
• 137:00 — Album release details ("May 30th")

Tone & Chemistry

• The mood is intimate, oscillating between earnest vulnerability, playful goofiness, philosophical depth, and artistic shop talk.
• Pete is an exuberant, loving fan, but also deeply empathetic about mental health and artistic struggle. Matt is self-deprecating, open, and generous with his vulnerabilities, balancing serious admissions with humor and humility.
• The conversation is both freewheeling and deeply focused—a “slush” of ideas, fittingly mirroring the creative lives being discussed.

For Listeners New and Old

If you’ve never listened before, this episode stands as a definitive portrait of a singular artist wrestling with life’s messiness. It’s also a model of the kind of weird, real, and revealing conversations that mark the best of You Made It Weird. Anyone interested in creativity, music, emotional honesty, or the struggle to balance ambition and well-being will find resonance, consolation, and more than a few memorable lines to carry with them.

Listen for:

• The recurring motif of order → disorder → reorder
• Pete and Matt’s friendship and mutual artistic admiration
• Honest discussion of depression, insomnia, and healing (25:07–28:38, 54:12–56:55)
• The impact of place on creative output (111:18–114:00)
• Matt’s baseball lyric trick (121:43)
• Insights into the communal magic of performance and songwriting
• The blurry, fragmentary, “slushy” beauty of living—and creating—while “making it weird”