Michael Showalter

Summary

YOU MADE IT WEIRD with Pete Holmes — Michael Showalter (June 29, 2022)

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Overview

This episode features a freewheeling, open-hearted conversation between Pete Holmes and Michael Showalter: comedian, writer, director, and member of the sketch groups The State and Stella. Their talk touches on Showalter’s career trajectory, the evolution of podcasting, creative process, boundaries, sobriety, spirituality, and the value of authenticity in both art and life. The tone is playful and candid, bouncing between inside-joke riffing and raw honesty.

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Main Conversation Themes

• Evolving Roles in Comedy: From Actor to Director
• The Importance of Boundaries and Self-Discovery
• Process: Creativity, Control, and Collaboration
• Authenticity, Vulnerability, and Spiritual Growth
• Inside Jokes, Comedy Community, and Lasting Friendships
• Sobriety and Finding Meaning Beyond the Ego

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcasting, Video, and Comedy’s Changing Landscape

• YouTube Video Podcasts
  • Pete discusses adapting the podcast to YouTube and the initial fear it would harm the "intimacy" of the show. Showalter recalls one of the first DIY web shows: Tom Green’s basement show ([06:00–10:00]).
  • Showalter: “It was very like he was Colonel Kurtz and this was Apocalypse Now... I was being taken to the king.” ([07:01])
  • Vivid, comedic retelling of a surreal appearance on Tom Green’s show: blindfolded, weird energy, “entourage of young men”, a prank that “wasn’t a bit" ([06:20–12:10]).

2. Boundaries, Aging, and Valuing Self-Respect

• Modern Showalter: Wouldn’t go on a chaotic show again. “Modern day Showalter just would not have gone on it.” ([24:09])
  • Showalter opens up about how getting older allowed him to realize what situations or roles were right for him ([24:09–26:15]).
• Pete: “If you wanna get me excited, I don't care what car you drive. Tell me about your boundaries. Tell me about your self-respect.” ([24:09])

3. Acting, Auditions, and Knowing Your Place

• Showalter is candid about rarely landing roles as an actor unless he wrote them. “The only jobs I ever got were when I wrote it.” ([24:34])
• The feeling of not being “fully in your skin” in auditions vs. the confidence of actors who nail auditions ([25:14–26:22]).
• Showalter: “Good actors, real legit actors, they're fully in their skin when they're acting. I never once felt that way.” ([26:15, 32:09])

4. On Directing and Working with Actors

• Pete praises Showalter’s work on The Eyes of Tammy Faye ([27:37]).
• Showalter details his approach:
  • Meeting the actor where they are — different process with Jessica Chastain (“turns it on and off”) and Andrew Garfield (“somewhat of a method actor”) ([34:27–36:44]).
  • The “bubble” of a set — protecting an improvisational, trusting environment. “We’re in the bubble, we’re playing, we’re open, we’re raw. This has value. Nothing’s off-limits.” ([52:06])
• The myth of the “auteur” director:
  • Collaboration is key: “There’s 50 zillion people involved. You’re just one person… The director is just the host of the party, setting a tone.” ([48:19], [49:24])

5. Process: Planning vs. Discovery

• Admiration for directors known for total control like Wes Anderson, but also the art of letting the project unfold (Paul Thomas Anderson, Judd Apatow) ([38:38–42:11]).
• Showalter: “What I’m going for in the moment is just something that feels real… physical sense of like: That felt good. Let’s move on.” ([51:20])

6. Creative Joy and Care

• Both agree: the creative act should be a reward in itself.
  • “Let’s make something great. Let’s try to make it special. Let’s try to make it count.” ([53:16])
• Debate about “selling out” or caring less turns into advice about not being too precious, especially when family and real-world responsibilities kick in ([55:11–56:31], [60:09]).

7. Comedy Community, New York, and Shared History

• Reminiscing about East Village, NYC comedy, mutual friends (Kumail Nanjiani, Eugene Mirman, etc.), and the “scene” mentality—community support and pride ([57:34–59:59]).
• Anecdotes about early days, iconic venues, and how the scene influenced their views on taking “money gigs” ([56:05–60:10]).

8. Sobriety, Ego, and Spiritual Shift

• Michael discusses quitting drinking nearly 20 years ago—done solo, not through rehab. (“It was a spiritual bottom more than anything.” ([77:39]))
• He’s careful with his story: “The more I tell the story, the less meaning it has.” ([78:15])
  • Pete relates: “It starts becoming the story instead of what it was.” ([79:05])
• The “spiritual bottom” is described as, “I’m sick of being the center of the universe. I’m sick of the burden of everything being about me.” ([89:51, 90:08])
  • Letting go of ego: “The meaning of life... is to live and be a good person.” ([91:19])
  • Showalter likens ego loss to “the hole in the donut”—terrified he’d cease to exist, but discovering “you’re still here, so you must not be the thing that couldn’t do that.” ([95:05, 96:00])
• On religion: Pete thanks Michael for showing Tammy Faye’s faith as earnest—not zealotry. Michael, raised secular, shares how he’s found value in humility and interconnectedness ([85:45–93:50]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michael Showalter, on podcasts:
  “It's supposed to feel like a sleepover. Like two bros in a basement. It's not supposed to be slick.” ([15:56])

• Showalter, on chaotic comedy:
  “I was afraid of Tom Green because at this time, he was in this kind of...very unpredictable phase.” ([07:38])

• Pete Holmes, on boundaries:
  “If you wanna get me excited, I don't care what car you drive. Tell me about your boundaries. Tell me about your self-respect.” ([24:09])

• Showalter, on authenticity:
  “It's literally authenticity. Yes, authenticity.” ([33:16])

• Showalter, on his spiritual bottom:
  “I’m sick of being the center of the universe. I’m sick of the burden of everything being about me.” ([89:51])

• Showalter, on ego and humility:
  “Ego deflation was the big thing for me... admitting that I'm not the center of the universe, that I'm not as great as I think I am, that everybody's awesome, everybody's fallible, it's not all about me.” ([91:19])

• Pete Holmes, on what matters in art:
  “The first step is declaring we’re gonna make something great or acknowledging the opportunity, the potential of making something great. I think that's the first step...” ([54:02])

• Showalter, on discovering he wasn't an actor:
  “I went and saw a play at Lincoln Center... I was joyfully watching it. And it occurred to me, like, I wonder if I should be thinking, 'I wish I was in this show.' And I wasn't...oh, you're not an actor.” ([74:14])

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Major Segment Timestamps

• [04:19–13:06] — Tom Green story: Basement show, blindfold, comedic trauma, prank culture vs. real-life boundaries
• [24:09–26:13] — Boundaries, self-discovery, aging out of chaos
• [27:37–38:31] — Directing, acting vs. being “in your skin,” collaboration with actors, process of making Eyes of Tammy Faye
• [48:19–52:07] — The misconception of the auteur, director as host, value of collaboration
• [53:08–55:39] — Making things great vs. selling out, money jobs and creative care
• [76:10–78:51] — Sobriety, the “spiritual bottom,” dangers of making your story into a monologue
• [85:45–87:59] — Portraying religion honestly in film; not just zealotry, but earnest belief
• [89:51–96:41] — Spiritual journey, ego, humility, and the realization of interconnectedness
• [99:47–101:39] — Last time he laughed really hard: singing Toby Keith with Leo Allen and Eugene Mirman on tour

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Comic Riffs & Running Bits

• Edit That Out / Keep It In: Recurring joke about on-air mistakes and editing bits, used for comedic effect ([37:17], [64:02])
• Apple Keyboard “Open Apple”: Dorky nostalgia about '80s/'90s computers and writing software ([17:17–18:26], callback at [106:30])
• Jizz as Slang: Pete proposes “jizz” as slang for “cool,” triggering a brief, silly riff ([29:39–30:13])
• Peer Group, Testimonials, and Crying: The pressure to have a good, emotional story in adolescence ([82:33–84:13])
• Inside Comedy Community References: Eugene Mirman, Kumail Nanjiani, NYC venues, “invite them up,” Luna Lounge ([57:34–59:59])

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Closing/Plugs

• Showalter’s Recent Projects:
  • The Eyes of Tammy Faye (directed; Jessica Chastain & Andrew Garfield)
  • I Love That For You (Showtime, with Vanessa Bayer and Molly Shannon; executive producer, director) ([103:55–104:28])

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Summary Takeaways

• Create with Care: Showalter and Holmes agree—the best work comes from intention, care, and a willingness to be present, not just to turn a profit or chase validation ([53:08 ff]).
• Boundaries Are Power: Learning where you thrive and drawing boundaries—personally and professionally—is a superpower that comes with self-knowledge ([24:09])
• It Takes a Village: Directing (and art in general) is a collaborative act, and the myth of the “auteur” is often just that—a myth ([48:19–49:20]).
• Sobriety, Spirituality, and Letting Go: Showalter’s journey reveals the freedom found when we let go of being the “center of the universe.” The process is deeply personal and best left a lived experience, not a story for performance ([77:39–91:19]).
• Comedy as Community: Both hosts reminisce about the power of scene, community, and shared experience—both as a source of joy and a place to learn humility ([57:34–59:59])

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Final Words

“Keep it crispy.” – Michael Showalter ([106:46])

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This episode is a testament to the creative life—a blend of weirdness, honesty, imperfection, growth, and the eternal search for belonging both on stage and off. Whether you’re in show business or not, Holmes and Showalter remind us: be generous, take risks, embrace your weird, and don’t be afraid to not be the center of the universe.

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Transcript

[Michael Showalter]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it with.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes, you did.

[Michael Showalter]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[Pete Holmes]

What's happening, weirdos? This is my conversation with the incredible Michael Showalter. I have been a fan of Mike's for a very, very long time. From the state, obviously from, from Stella, from his comedy work. Also his work. One of my favorite films of this past year, the Eyes of Tammy Faye Baker. Incredible, incredible movie. He's done so many movies that I am such a huge fan of. I was very, very excited to sit here on the sleepover couch with him and I want to get it, get to it as soon as possible. Katie, what is the it's July 12th. July 12th. I do a live stand up show at Largo here in Los Angeles. So whenever you watch this, just go to largo-la.com and you'll find Pete Holmes living at Largo. That is always the highlight my month. It's my favorite place to do stand up. We've been having Amy Schumer did it recently, Demetri Martin, Judd Apatow, Zach Galifianakis, Adam Sandler has come by the show. But regardless of who comes by as a special guest, I'm always there. I do about 45 minutes. New material, old material, mixing it up. It's always, always, always super, super fun. So hope you can be there. Largo-la.com the next one is July 12th and if you like the show, why not try a Pete's pick? I'm actually this episode is brought to us by our friends at Apollo Neuro. This is my Apollo Neuro. I'm wearing it right now. I'm constantly wearing it. It is a piece of wearable technology that helps your body recover from stress. It's basically a wearable hug that sends these almost like sub perceptual vibrations directly into your nervous system. And before you tune out the this is not like a mood ring. This is not a crystal. It's not woo woo. It's made by a board certified psychiatrist and a neurologist. They developed this to speak to the body in the language that the body understands to help it calm down the way I explain it to people when I meet them in real life. Because people are always asking me what it is that I go like. If I go like this to you and establish a rhythm, if I'm patting you on the arm and then I slow it down, you're just gonna calm down. And that's basically what it does. It helps or it helps you energize up like it does the opposite and gets your heart moving, gets your blood flowing. It has so many incredible settings. It's like a wearable hug worn on your wrist or your ankle. Delivers soothing, soothing, gentle vibrations that train your nervous system to recover and rebalance after stress. Like I said, there's energy and wake up, which I use before I work out. Social and open, which is a wonderful setting for parties, which usually freak me out. It's nice to have my Apollo on easing me into the situation. Clear and focus is what I have it on when I'm doing this podcast. It's helped people get off ADD medication and really help them dial into what they're doing. Meditation and mindfulness, relax and unwind. And this is my favorite, sleep and renew. I put it on when I'm falling asleep and if Leela wakes up in the middle of the night and I have to get up and I come back to bed, I just push these two buttons. It reruns that program and gently lulls me back to sleep. If it did only one of these things help you meditate, help you fall asleep, help you focus, help you ease into a social situation. I would be shouting about it from the rooftops, but it does all of them. It actually trains your nervous system to cope with stress better over time. The more you use it, the better it works. As I said, it was developed by a neuroscientist and a board certified psychiatrist who've been studying the impacts of chronic stress for nearly 15 years. And Apollo's effects on stress, sleep, cognitive performance and recovery have been proven in multiple clinical trials and real world studies. I get more feedback about weirdos trying the Apollo Neuro than any other Pete's pick, which is so fun that people are finding it and it's making their lives better. So show your support of the show. You can get 10% off by going to apollon neuro.com weird that's a P O N E R O.com weird for 10% off and show your support of the show. All right, everybody, hope to see you at Largo this month. In the meantime, enjoy my chat with the incredible Michael Showalter. Get into it. Hello, you. You know, how's this?

[Michael Showalter]

Can I do this? Can I do this?

[Pete Holmes]

Oh my God, it's so good.

[Michael Showalter]

We're not being filmed, are we? We are, aren't we?

[Pete Holmes]

We are. The first thing, if that's okay. The first thing I say to guests is, get comfortable. Go ahead and cross your feet on the couch. Like put your Shoes on the couch.

[Michael Showalter]

I wouldn't do that.

[Pete Holmes]

You can or you can.

[Michael Showalter]

I.

[Pete Holmes]

You can kick them off.

[Michael Showalter]

I just don't want to.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Michael Showalter]

It's not because I'm a. Like. Because it's. It's. It's just. Wouldn't be comfortable for me.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, here, take this second pillow.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, that's good. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And there's actually more pillows behind you. Here's another one.

[Michael Showalter]

Does this air? Does this air?

[Pete Holmes]

We just started doing it on the YouTubes because guess what?

[Michael Showalter]

You get a lot of views that way.

[Pete Holmes]

That's how people consume podcasts now. The show, Walter show alter, way ahead of itself.

[Michael Showalter]

Interesting. So they go. They. So it's back into. It's like, back to that. No, but it used to be that in the beginning it was that.

[Pete Holmes]

Then it went to, like, radio, when.

[Michael Showalter]

It was like, Adam Corolla and, like, Joe Rogan, so. But it's, like, become popularized now that you do both, right?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I resisted for a long time, but I'm happy to say it's not. I thought it would change it. We've been doing a bunch of episodes, and it feels completely the same.

[Michael Showalter]

Sure.

[Pete Holmes]

In fact, it feels better because frankly, like, sometimes you go, like, you make, like, a face or something. I'm like, now, you know, you don't have to go, I'm making a face. You know, you don't have to explain it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Or it's like, what you can't see right now is that this person is making a funny, very funny face. Like, you have to explain.

[Pete Holmes]

There have been many times where I've said, I wish this was a video podcast, but I worried that it would ruin the intimacy because I, you know, I wanted to feel just like a chat, not, like, press or whatever.

[Michael Showalter]

Sure, sure.

[Pete Holmes]

And so far, it hasn't been a problem.

[Michael Showalter]

No. I remember many, many years ago going on Tom Green, who was literally, like, the first person to do the, like, diy.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

In his basement. It was in his. It was in his house in the Hollywood Hills.

[Pete Holmes]

It had a basement feel. I won't be wrong. It had a basement feel.

[Michael Showalter]

And. Oh, man, that was one of the worst experiences of my whole life.

[Pete Holmes]

Really?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell me every. Every single detail.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, they blindfolded me, first of all. They met me in some. I was in LA for just, like, auditioning for pilots or something. This was a long time ago.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And they blindfolded me. I was met at my hotel or somewhere in the. Down in Hollywood or wherever I was staying. And his, like, underlings met Me and blindfolded me because I couldn't know where he lived.

[Pete Holmes]

As a bit.

[Michael Showalter]

Not as a bit.

[Pete Holmes]

As a bit.

[Michael Showalter]

Not as.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I say it was.

[Michael Showalter]

It was a very, like. It was very like he was Colonel Kurtz and this was Apocalypse Now. And I was being taken to the. To the. Like the. You know, to the. Like, to the. You know, to the king or whatever.

[Pete Holmes]

Freddie got fingered.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Freddie got fingers. Yeah. That is. So I was blindfolded and driven to his house in the hills. Not joking.

[Pete Holmes]

Not a bad.

[Michael Showalter]

A bit. Not even remotely a bit. And it was like, I'm sorry, we have to do this. It was very much like, sorry, this. I know this.

[Pete Holmes]

But even that could have been a bit like, you know. You know. Bet.

[Michael Showalter]

I swear to God. It was not a bit like you.

[Pete Holmes]

Were thinking at the beginning.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I was thinking maybe a bit. Nope. I was thinking, this is weird. I feel weird. I don't think I want to do this. The whole thing was weird. I was afraid of Tom Green because at this time, he was in this kind of. And I'll tell a little bit more of the story. He was in his, like, very unpredictable phase.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Like, the bit is, I might slap you or bite you or. The joke is that I had diarrhea on your seat.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. And then the big punchline was very, like, gonzo. It was very gonzo. And I didn't like that.

[Pete Holmes]

I hate that.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm not a prank person. Even Hunter S. Thompson. I'm kind of like, take it easy.

[Michael Showalter]

100%. Right. 100%. Just be a normal person. Just be a normal person.

[Pete Holmes]

When people are like, he'd go out and shoot his tv. I'm like, I'm his neighbor.

[Michael Showalter]

Being like, don't do that.

[Pete Holmes]

It scared us.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

It scared us so bad.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Just be a normal person. We're going for a society here.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not that. Yeah, barely. But it's not that hard. The whole point of a society is it's sort of hard to stay in the society. But it's nice.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like people that say, I have no filter. It's like, you should have a filter. We all build filters.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

To not humiliate, embarrass, offend other living, loving people.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. Be like, not that hard.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not that hard. I'm so. You got stupid shoes.

[Michael Showalter]

Sorry.

[Pete Holmes]

I have no filter. Build one, you idiot. Build a filter. You think I was born with a filter? I'm sorry. I'm a child. Great. Grow up.

[Michael Showalter]

So I agree. I. First of All. I totally agree. I. So I go to this place. My blindfold is taken off. Of course, I don't know where I am. I know I'm up in the hill somewhere.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. No landmarks.

[Michael Showalter]

None that I.

[Pete Holmes]

What if you're like, I take it off? I'm right by the Arc light.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. No, I'm next to Pinks.

[Pete Holmes]

See, that's a bit.

[Michael Showalter]

He lives next to Pinks. Hot dog stand on. That would make it a bit.

[Pete Holmes]

If I blindfolded you and took you to Pinks.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And you were like, this is a landmark.

[Michael Showalter]

It's Pinks. There's only one of it. So he. It's called Pinks, right? That hot dog.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. On Melrose.

[Michael Showalter]

I believe so. Because there also was like, Pink Dot. Is that a thing too?

[Pete Holmes]

Pink Dot is a grocery store that'll.

[Michael Showalter]

Bring you cigarettes and pornography and licorice.

[Pete Holmes]

It's presumably where Phil Hoffman is calling in Magnolia. He's calling a Pink Dot.

[Michael Showalter]

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember Pink Dad. I mean, I. I remember. Yeah. It's like. There's one on Sunset.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Michael Showalter]

So. And then he interviewed me. But he was definitely. There was a whole thing going on. There was like all. He has this whole entourage of young men that were like, very. You know, he has a real. He. This is. Again, this may have been as many as 20 years ago, and he had a huge. But. But I remember that it was the first, like, DIY interview show made in his basement, you know, with, like, where the. All the cameras were like that. You know, the. Like the. Just the.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

You know, like video. No, and. But he had 10 guys working for him, and it had a very weird vibe. Very agro, macho male. Like a very agro male vibe.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, there's something. There's a paradox to T. Green, which is that he's like, I'm a skinny dork. I'm a skinny dork. But as soon as his. His number came in, he was like, you. And I'm like, it sort of. Not. Not necessarily.

[Michael Showalter]

Fuck you. It was frat boyish. It was Friday. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Freddy got fratty.

[Michael Showalter]

Freddie got fratty. Freddy got fratty. So he interviews me. He has no clue who I am.

[Pete Holmes]

Literally 0re.

[Michael Showalter]

I mean, barely.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

I'm just the guy that's one of his lovely underlings. The guy that was apologizing to me about the blindfold was very nice and was a fan.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And it was like.

[Pete Holmes]

They often are the people with the blindfold that work for the overlord.

[Michael Showalter]

The apologizing blindfolder was like, I'm really sorry, but like I loved Wet Hot or something, you know, and it was like, hey, Tom, you should have Michael Showalter from Wet Hot on your show. Who's that? I don't know, but he's great. Okay, fine, bring him on. Like he didn't know who I was.

[Pete Holmes]

There's also a level of hubris to that. Like drunk with power. Prime Green. By the way, T. Green is sitting sat right where you are. So we're not sharing.

[Michael Showalter]

Is he humble now?

[Pete Holmes]

He was actually incredibly sweet. I was nervous to have him on. He was incredibly sweet and almost. I don't want to say to be funny. I'll say off puttingly, but not really funny. Earnest.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, earnest.

[Pete Holmes]

He was very, very earnest.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I remember asking him about Big Brother and he was talking about it.

[Michael Showalter]

Did he.

[Pete Holmes]

Did he very seriously did.

[Michael Showalter]

Does he say I was crazy and like, does he have any like self awareness about.

[Pete Holmes]

I think, I think he seems to have calmed and he refers to that as a different time in his life for sure. But anyway, the Minion books, you know, and this is the drunk on Power. Like I can talk to anybody. Like if it. If all goes well, I'll just dry. You know what I mean?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Like it's flying too close to the sun.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Well, you as someone who's sort of knows what it's like to be on his side of that microphone of the interview show and stuff like that.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

So maybe you know what his psychology is in a way that I. I was just terrified.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, you were interviewing. What year is that was just.

[Michael Showalter]

No, but that. The show.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no, no. Tom Green, when you did his.

[Michael Showalter]

That would have been. This literally was what was like early 2000s. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

This is Prime Green.

[Michael Showalter]

Prime Green.

[Pete Holmes]

I.

[Michael Showalter]

But this is post MTV and post Drew Barrymore.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

So he actually had sort of already like he. His like movie career was over already.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

So he was like an underground.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. He was an Andre the Giant Obey sticker.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Yes. In human form. In tall, Canadian bearded human form. Yeah. But. So he was more like. He was still a rock star, but he wasn't a mainstream celebrity at that point. He was sort of on. He had this underground.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Thing that he was doing and it was getting a lot of attention mostly because it was like, oh, you can do your own thing online and it can be successful.

[Pete Holmes]

That was when that was absurd.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. And that is what was really sort of notable about him at that time was that he has. He was self producing his own talk show. And it was making money.

[Pete Holmes]

It made money.

[Michael Showalter]

It seemed to be.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I'm not surprised.

[Michael Showalter]

I don't know how, but it was monetized in some way and he was succeeding.

[Pete Holmes]

Which by way, is what everyone has figured out. Like, there's this weird gold. We've been doing the show for 10 years, so we. We not to toot Virtue signal. I'm just saying we got into it when it was like, just a thing you could do to help with tour, you know, like get your. Get more. You didn't even call it content back then.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, well, but there's always, like. You could get a little bit of money because they would put like, SN ads for Snack. Snack.com or Snackettes. Do I get. Can I see what I look like?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Do you want framing?

[Michael Showalter]

I want us to just see how weird, how awful I look, because I have. I think I look better than I do.

[Pete Holmes]

Can we keep this in.

[Michael Showalter]

In general?

[Pete Holmes]

Just flip the viewfinder around. Can I do that?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I. This.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, God. Is that what I. That is what I look like, isn't it?

[Pete Holmes]

You have to live this in.

[Michael Showalter]

All right.

[Pete Holmes]

Show Walter Soto to himself. That is what I look like, isn't it? I mean, that's life.

[Michael Showalter]

So. All right.

[Pete Holmes]

We can get you more pillows.

[Michael Showalter]

No, it's fine. It's totally fine. It is what it is.

[Pete Holmes]

This for real?

[Michael Showalter]

No, I'm fine. I'm comfortable. No, I am. I swear. I really am.

[Pete Holmes]

I believe you.

[Michael Showalter]

It's not about comfort. It's about vanity.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I know, but for vanity.

[Michael Showalter]

But I don't know what I. Look, it won't matter because I still can't see what I look like. Well, here.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, look at this, look at this, look at that.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay, this is.

[Pete Holmes]

That's better.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

This is the show, man. This is a fucking. It's like it's supposed to feel like a. Not by design. It just ended up feeling like a sleepover. Like two bros in a basement. Like, it's not supposed to be slick.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, we. And we need some, like, you know, sugared cereal or something.

[Pete Holmes]

Sugared cereal that we dry with. With hand, in parentheses. With hand. Mike, I was writing this morning, so I'm all in Final draft. Michael eats sugared cereal. Parentheses. With hand or.

[Michael Showalter]

Or like. Yeah, yeah. Michael eats sugared cereal, comma. And we cut and we caps. Cut to. Dot, dot, dot.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Oh, I love it. As we.

[Michael Showalter]

Dot, dot, dot, Big. As we cut to.

[Pete Holmes]

I do just as we. And then cut to as we.

[Michael Showalter]

Or just. You go to the next Thing I like.

[Pete Holmes]

I like. I like getting as rid of as many cut tos as I can. I use cut tos only when it's.

[Michael Showalter]

Like it's a thing. A whole new thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't want to interrupt the scene.

[Michael Showalter]

Our big joke is like, you know, as we. And then it's like, you know, you go over there, it's open Apple 6. So you're all the way to the right of this page. Like smash cut too.

[Pete Holmes]

There you go.

[Michael Showalter]

Joke is the you. You smash cut. But it's not just smash cut. It's like you smash cut. It's like it's an. It's an extra bajillion smash cut. But can I. I would never use.

[Pete Holmes]

Take a moment to love for real Open Apple 6 reference. There was Open Apple and Close Apple.

[Michael Showalter]

Open Apple 6 will take you over to cut. To cut to for sure.

[Pete Holmes]

But now Open Apple is Control, I believe.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, I'm call. Okay. It's.

[Pete Holmes]

I think you're on a 2GS.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, it's always been. I'm going old school and calling it open.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what I mean. And it just compares.

[Michael Showalter]

Is that weird thing. That weird square thing with the circles on it?

[Pete Holmes]

The square.

[Michael Showalter]

I think it's Control.

[Pete Holmes]

It's Control, yes.

[Michael Showalter]

Also that little symbol.

[Pete Holmes]

Either Controller Command.

[Michael Showalter]

No, that.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, the.

[Michael Showalter]

That symbol.

[Pete Holmes]

She's looking at the. At the keyboard.

[Michael Showalter]

That little symbol is also sometimes called open Apple.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I know because it used to have an open apple.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, did it?

[Pete Holmes]

It has.

[Michael Showalter]

I've always just. I just. That little symbol. See that thing on that little symbol? I just call that open Apple. Well, you're saying there actually used to be. Yes, some on A2E 2GS. All Apple. So I don't know this.

[Pete Holmes]

There was the outline of an apple that was open Apple and then there was a filled in apple that was closed Apple. And we have just dorked out in a heart. Like. I love it.

[Michael Showalter]

I didn't even know that.

[Pete Holmes]

Takes me right back to computer.

[Michael Showalter]

I've always just been. That symbol means you thought the.

[Pete Holmes]

The sort of like it almost looks like a Celtic infinity symbol. Yeah. Okay. I like it.

[Michael Showalter]

So to make a long story short, he has no clue who I am. He's being very, like, very good at this.

[Pete Holmes]

You took us right back to the story.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, I'm like. I'm like. Yeah, like when I. It's. I need to finish. You have to. He is. He has no clue. I am. He's being pretty condescending. I mean, I have no big issue with him at all. But he's being quite condescending. Like, he really doesn't care that I'm there.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Good feeling. I'm very intimidated and genuinely nervous and sort of, you know, feeling like ner. Like having a little bit of, like. I'm feeling quite triggered by the whole thing. It feels.

[Pete Holmes]

As the recently blindfolded usually feel.

[Michael Showalter]

It feels very dangerous in a kind of like. Not like I'm gonna get physically hurt, but that, like, this isn't a safe environment.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And. And then there's. And then it was his birthday or something, and they had a. An adult film actress there as his present. See, as his gift. I don't. And she sat next to me and was being very flirtatious with Tom. And the energy in the room got so crazy, and I didn't know where I was. Cause I had been blindfolded and taken there, and there was.

[Pete Holmes]

You didn't know how to leave.

[Michael Showalter]

There were drugs being passed around and about 20 guys and me and Tom and this adult film actress.

[Pete Holmes]

This is everything I've. I got into comedy to avoid this situation.

[Michael Showalter]

And I was like. And then they just went somewhere, like, with the cameras rolling.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a loaded. Went somewhere.

[Michael Showalter]

They just. He was like, hey, let's go back into my. Let me show you in my office or something. And they, like, just disappeared him and.

[Pete Holmes]

The adult porn person.

[Michael Showalter]

Yep. And then I was, like, sitting there like, what's going on? And then the sweet guy that put the blindfold on me is like, I'm sorry. I don't know. You know, like, I. I get it. He's like, I know. I feel bad. This is kind of weird. Like, this isn't what I told you this was gonna be kind of thing. And I was like, can you drive? Just drive me home. And then he just drove me home. And that was my. Yeah. And then that was my Tom Green experience.

[Pete Holmes]

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[Michael Showalter]

Oh, Modern Showalter. The minute that current. Like, modern day Showalter. Tell me where Modern Showalter would be. Modern Day Showalter would just not have gone on it. Modern Day Showalter just would have not.

[Pete Holmes]

Said, this is what to brag about. Like, if you want to get me excited, I don't care what car you drive. Tell me about your boundaries. Tell me about your self respect.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, like. Like, one thing is, like, I don't. I figured out Modern day Show. I figured out through so much failing at it that I am not a. I may be a good ish actor, but I'm not. Was never going to succeed as an actor.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael Showalter]

And just. I auditioned first. I've auditioned for 40 billion jillion things and never gotten in. The only things I've ever gotten were things that I wrote. Like, the only jobs I ever got were when I wrote it. Like, with a very. With a very short. Like, so many. With very few exceptions. There's a few things I've done, but, like, I never once went into an audition was like, I'm getting this part.

[Pete Holmes]

Y' all are about to see Modern Show.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Like, but there's so many people that. That's. Who are successful at acting, that that's what they're thinking when they go into an audition. They're like, I'm gonna go crush this audition and get the part. I've been. I've watched them come in and do that. Like, I've watched people come in and audition and crush it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And they really believe, like, you should hire me. Like, and if you don't, it's your loss.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Michael Showalter]

And I never felt that way. Do you. For me, it was like I. I was like, I can't get this over fast enough. And like, I saw, you know, whatever actor who look, you know, who has the same kind of hair as me in the. In the waiting room. You should hire him. He's great. That's really how I felt.

[Pete Holmes]

I get that. I. I understand and I feel. I feel the same way often. Sometimes I go in and I am the jerk guy that his coffee just kicked in. And, like, I'm like, socializing in the waiting room and stuff. Like, I can be that.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, I. I do that. Yeah, I do that. I did that. I haven't auditioned in years. Yeah, but I do that too. But it's.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm trying to get into some Sort of flow, but. Yeah, go you.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, but. But when you're. But when you're. I mean, I would imagine when you're on stage doing your material, doing stand up or, you know, you're like, in your. You're fully in your skin.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

I think that good actors, real legit actors, they're fully in their skin when they're acting.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And I don't. I still don't feel that way. Yeah, I completely get it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Now that you're on the other side of the table and you're casting things, do you like when they come in and they're kind of, like, confident?

[Michael Showalter]

I don't need any of that stuff. I don't need any. Sorry.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I loved it.

[Michael Showalter]

Sorry.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I loved it.

[Michael Showalter]

No, no, no, not me. Oh, okay.

[Pete Holmes]

I can be that way sometimes, but I've cast things as well, and.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I just want them to be great in their audition. Right. All I care about is what the audition looks. But. But I actually don't love watching auditions, to be honest. I.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, it's brutal. You're watching people's dreams.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. And so it's like I even watch an audition, you know.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Sort of like this. Even when it's on my computer screen.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Michael Showalter]

But you want them to be good, though.

[Pete Holmes]

You want.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, I'm excited for them to be good enough. And if, like, there's the one thing I ever could have told myself in my twenties when I was auditioning a lot, was like, those people want you to be good. They're rooting for you.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah. They're not. They're rooting for you, person.

[Michael Showalter]

No, they want you to be totally rooting for you and, and, and want you to have fun and want you to feel loose and don't feel the kind of power that you think that they feel.

[Pete Holmes]

They're feeling insecure, too.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I'd love to talk to you about that. I forget who said it, but the director is the best actor on set. Have you heard that? No, I like it because you're acting like everything's okay, that you're not running out of time and you are getting what you need and all that sort of stuff. So when you're directing something like the Eyes of Tammy Faye, which is one. I told you when I ran into you the other day, I think one of the best movies, certainly of the year, but I'm like, one of the best movies. Just like, I think it's fucking incredible.

[Michael Showalter]

That's so, so nice.

[Pete Holmes]

I really mean it. And when you were doing it, I'd love to hear a little bit more of that nuance. You're not like. And action. With a cigar. You're probably going like, God, I hope you're probably. Tell me what you're doing. Looking at the script, cutting lines, wondering if it's right. Wondering if you should nudge what.

[Michael Showalter]

We'll tell you what it's like. Well, you mean, like, so there's so many different phases to it because there's, you know, there's the months leading up to when you're shooting where you're, you know, actors, you know, Jessica Chastain and Andrew Garfield, who are the leads in that movie. Who? Jessica Chastain and Andrew Garfield. Jessica Chastain won an Oscar for her role, which you didn't even know.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't know which.

[Michael Showalter]

When I saw you, you were like, have they had that yet? Has that happened? I was like, ha, ha, ha. He's joking. Like, because I was like, remember when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock and it was all anyone talked about? And you were like, what was your. What were you like? Oh, yeah, yeah. No, at that point, this is, like, really for both.

[Pete Holmes]

Is it Will Smith?

[Michael Showalter]

No, that's my wife.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I get it? That's not like a weird I'm having sex with your wife joke. That was just like, what? If I got it?

[Michael Showalter]

She would be very like.

[Pete Holmes]

Your face was like. No one thought it was I'm having sex with your wife joke until you said it.

[Michael Showalter]

That's what I saw your face just do. Great. That was good.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, Yeah. I saw you do it, and then I regretted it, but here we are.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I don't think you should regret it. I liked it.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay. I appreciate it. I feel now I feel this is a safe space. That's what I'm trying to say. We. Maya rudolph did it two days ago. We said jizz like 75 times. And for some reason, I was just so proud. Jizz is a funny word.

[Michael Showalter]

Jizz is a funny word.

[Pete Holmes]

I completely agree. I'm trying to get it started like this. Ready? Tell me those are new shoes.

[Michael Showalter]

These are new shoes.

[Pete Holmes]

Jizz. I just think that's how we should be saying it.

[Michael Showalter]

And that means, like, they're awesome.

[Pete Holmes]

They're awesome. Jizz.

[Michael Showalter]

Your shoes are jizz.

[Pete Holmes]

Or just.

[Michael Showalter]

Or just jizz.

[Pete Holmes]

And she was also. Maya was wearing hoka or hookah.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, yeah, Hoka.

[Pete Holmes]

And she was like, once you're over certain age, you only wear hocus. I'm sorry. To out you.

[Michael Showalter]

They're jizz, but they're jizz. These hocus are mad jizz.

[Pete Holmes]

Those are mad jizz. Yeah, they're super jizz.

[Michael Showalter]

They're super jizz.

[Pete Holmes]

And when we. We sometimes get in the hot tub and go, fbj full body J is this. These are the only types of relationships I want to have.

[Michael Showalter]

Fbj.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, that was an fbj.

[Michael Showalter]

Not to be. Not to be confused with PB and J.

[Pete Holmes]

Or a forlorn blowjob or for. Yes, I got a blow job. But they looked for Lauren.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, poor, poor, poor.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, poor Lauren.

[Michael Showalter]

Poor Lauren. But I didn't want it.

[Pete Holmes]

Poor Lauren.

[Michael Showalter]

Poor Lauren.

[Pete Holmes]

The numbers in SNL are down. Poor Lauren, Poor Lauren. Poor Lauren looks forlorn.

[Michael Showalter]

Did you ever work on SNL or write on SNL, be a performer on that?

[Pete Holmes]

I would go into 30 Rock, which is very intimidating. Do you remember being a young person?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Audition again. Once again auditioning for sitcoms on like the. Some floor of there.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, really?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like going into a Pharaoh's Mansion or something. It's golden and marble.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, which part? The whole thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Just the lobby. I've never interested. I've never really gone up later. I went up when I was not performing. Just.

[Michael Showalter]

I was drop off a D to go see. To go. Well, you, you must have been on. Been on. You must have been on Fallon. I did talk shows.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I did Fallon and I've watched snl. But you auditioned and wouldn't get it.

[Michael Showalter]

I never auditioned for snl.

[Pete Holmes]

Really?

[Michael Showalter]

No, I never auditioned for snl.

[Pete Holmes]

Think of yourself as an actor because that's, that's what I know you're.

[Michael Showalter]

I don't think of myself as an actor because I want. It's a I for what I said, which is I don't feel like an actor. I don't feel what I think an actor should feel like, which is in control and, and, and happy, you know, doing it. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Is that what you saw? Your leads into Tammy Faye doing it?

[Michael Showalter]

Breathing. It's living to be when, when you're at that level, when you're a great actor and it doesn't. You don't have to be that kind of actor. You could be a comic actor. You can, there's, there's any. You could be a soap opera actor. It doesn't matter. Yeah, but it's that feeling that like I'm, I'm me right now and when I'm directing and this feels sort of like goofy to even say, but I feel that way. I feel like completely in my own skin, I feel very confident in. I don't feel the need to pose or posture or anything. I am more than happy to say if I don't know what something is, could you, you know, the ad or someone will say, like, oh, we need a something or other thing. And I'm like, what's that? What are you talking about? You know, I don't need to know it all. I don't need. I just. But I do feel like there's something that I have to offer and it's unique. And you never really felt that way as an actor.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, I love that. I love. I'm just happy for you, just as a human person, because finding those spots where you're fully yourself, relationships where you fully yourself, jobs where you're fully everything. It's.

[Michael Showalter]

It's literally authenticity. Yes, Authenticity.

[Pete Holmes]

And is that what Andrew and Jessica, you saw them? I have to imagine so.

[Michael Showalter]

They just, they're different. They have, both of them have a different process. They're both very, very well researched. So they both do an incredible amount of reading and research and, and they think a lot about their characters and they talk to people that knew. I mean, they, they. All that stuff. I mean, they, you know, they have, they, they take it, they, they approach it with such, such professionalism and hard work. So I sort of see it as, it. As they're. They're creating something. They're creating. They're putting a character together piece by piece, the way a bird would build a nest or something like that. And I'm there to kind of help them in whatever way I can, but also to like, get, to kind of figure them out, get on their page. That's a lot of. Of with me. What, what if I have a directing style or, or, or process. It's like to try to get on the actor's page. And every actor is different. So I may meet them where they are. Yeah, but. So it'll be like, I'm doing one thing with Jessica and doing different thing with Andrew. And what was that a different thing with Vincent d'? Onofrio?

[Pete Holmes]

I don't, don't mention just the leads.

[Michael Showalter]

That's fun working with, Working with an actor, you know, like, oh, who are you working with? Oh, Vincent Afrio. Okay, sure. No big deal. They're all different. They all have different. And you're trying to get on their page and figure out what that's gonna be. And then can you remember the difference.

[Pete Holmes]

If Andrew is struggling?

[Michael Showalter]

Andrew is very. I don't want to say this and be wrong. But he's somewhat of a method actor, so he's kind of in character even when he's not on camera.

[Pete Holmes]

That must have been fun.

[Michael Showalter]

Or he sort of has his character with him in a way. So it's not like, you know, I used to think method actor. You hear that they're always in character. That literally, like, if you go up to them and ask them a question, they'll use the voice of the character.

[Pete Holmes]

Or they'll be like, what?

[Michael Showalter]

What do you mean? Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't understand.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

No, for the next shot. Shot.

[Michael Showalter]

Is this.

[Pete Holmes]

Is this the Hallelujah Show? No, we're shooting a movie, a documentary.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay. We can't do this every time.

[Michael Showalter]

It's not that. It's more that they don't drop the character's feelings when they're not shooting. So if the character's angry and you. If the character is angry or hurt in some way, or happy, even the actor, I. My. My sense of it is. And I didn't talk to him about this a lot, but my sense of it is he holds on to that.

[Pete Holmes]

Your spidey sense?

[Michael Showalter]

My Spidey sense of it. Because I didn't want to be like, what are you doing right now? You know, like, what are you doing right now? What are you thinking? It was more just my vibe. Checking it out is. Is. He'll keep. He'll keep the feeling very alive. Keep that fire burning.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Whereas Jessica is more turning it on and off.

[Pete Holmes]

I see. Which is what I certainly do.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And so before I do a scene, I often. My co stars on the thing I just did would laugh at me. They'd be like, all right, we're ready to go. And I would just say out loud, I'm angry. And then I. Because I know it's stupid, but I even think Robert De Niro. Oh, that's more of a method guy, I guess. But, like, a lot of actors, even if they're not saying I'm angry, they are going like, remember, you're. You're in a fight, you just left that fight.

[Michael Showalter]

Sure.

[Pete Holmes]

Or you're just pointed.

[Michael Showalter]

I mean, sometimes in your script, a lot of actors, they just keep a note. Keep notes that say, like, this is what my character's thinking in this scene.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I wish I had done that because I was watching what we shot, and I. I noticed. I was like, oh, I should have been keeping, like, a. Like, you're more mad than you were in the last. Because you're shooting out of order and stuff. It's like, this should be your six. Like, you're really pissed. But it was the first thing we shot, so I can tell. I'm just kind of, like, happy to be on set, you know?

[Michael Showalter]

Like, that's what Sally Field did. I did a movie with. Made a movie with Sally Field, and she. We shot it out of order. And it's called hello, My Name is Doris. I hope everyone goes and checks it out. Edit it on Netflix right now. She made a whole.

[Pete Holmes]

I said edit that out. I just want you to be in on the joke.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't want you to think I was being a dick if you watch this later. Edit that out. I always do. Edit that out.

[Michael Showalter]

Out.

[Pete Holmes]

Edit that out. Edit that out. No. Yeah. It's a wonderful film. I didn't know it was on Netflix.

[Michael Showalter]

It's on Netflix.

[Pete Holmes]

That's great.

[Michael Showalter]

Netflix Came on Netflix.

[Pete Holmes]

Great.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, it just came on Netflix.

[Pete Holmes]

Great.

[Michael Showalter]

And she would do a. You say netflix.com. yeah, yeah, she would do. Yeah. She sort of made a chart so she could look at her script at any moment, and her chart could kind of tell her where her character needed to be.

[Pete Holmes]

I love that.

[Michael Showalter]

So that she could almost just like. Yeah. Like, reference a piece of paper that could tell her where she needed to get to, because she had the whole performance kind of charted out on paper so that she could just reference the level.

[Pete Holmes]

And. Are you doing. Because I've had directors that do that and don't do that. Some of my favorite directors. Really?

[Michael Showalter]

No, it's really helpful.

[Pete Holmes]

You do whatever you do. But the ones that make it really easy, let's say, go like, hey, don't forget the scene before this.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, yeah, I do that. I do that. But I don't have. I don't. I do that, but I do that in the moment. So it's like, I'll turn to. I absolutely do that. But I don't have it all written down. That's all I meant.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. I just don't have it all written down, but I absolutely do that.

[Pete Holmes]

That was super helpful.

[Michael Showalter]

Don't edit that out. I do that. I do that. I swear to God, I do that.

[Pete Holmes]

I believe. Of course.

[Michael Showalter]

But I'm in awe of a. I'm in awe of directors like Wes Anderson or the guy that did Bong Ho, I think his name is. Who'd be done. Who did Parasite. I'm in awe of directors who, it appears to me are. You could.

[Pete Holmes]

If the camera was on me, you'd see my face. I was Smiling and it started to fade, realizing I had made fun of a name. I thought you were trying to think of the name of a movie.

[Michael Showalter]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I was like, oh, no.

[Michael Showalter]

I just can't edit that out. You have. Maybe you do want to edit that out.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I think it was because it was Ernest. I didn't know his name. So you just had like a real moment of me. Like. But if you go to the me on the my shot, you could see me go.

[Michael Showalter]

You just heard. I heard bong and all you heard.

[Pete Holmes]

When he went bong Ho, the Academy Award winning director. And I was like, I couldn't do it in a million years. Let me. It was like this, Mike. It was like this. I was like, bong hits. And you went bong ho. Like, that was too much. It was so subtle.

[Michael Showalter]

Your vertebrae started connect. Started like getting fusing together.

[Pete Holmes]

And I. I felt my eye move so subtle.

[Michael Showalter]

Like that little flutter. It was a flutter in the corner of the eye. It's like if we could have done an extreme close up, if we could have gotten an extreme close up, we'd have seen a little twitch happening.

[Pete Holmes]

You would have been in video village going like, God damn it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, that's beautiful. We got it. That's beautiful.

[Pete Holmes]

Because what I felt this.

[Michael Showalter]

That we got that. Right. We were recording. Right? Recording.

[Pete Holmes]

That's the sort of stuff.

[Michael Showalter]

And I say circle that. Circle that.

[Pete Holmes]

Circle that.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes, circle that tip. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And those are the types of things that I can't yet will. I can't will something so small.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, or. Or just be so. Or just be so like in it that it comes out that you're not.

[Pete Holmes]

Even thinking that you trust.

[Michael Showalter]

You trust that whatever comes out of you is going to be that good.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Bong Ho.

[Michael Showalter]

Bong Ho and Wes Anderson and many others.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Who. Who. I get the feeling that they plan their movies within an inch of their lives. Their movies are like blueprinted.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Michael Showalter]

So to the. To the. To the letter with. With music and the shot and how it's all going to cut together. It. I'm in awe of that because to me, what I doing, you know, doing, even the stuff I've done, it feels like just making anything is like so miraculous.

[Pete Holmes]

Forget making it perfectly.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. To make them. To make a movie like Isa, Tammy Faye and the amount of. Of like pieces that need to come together and the amount of like X factors that go into it. To say nothing of just like anything like the script and the actors and the production and you're Trying to make your day and the budget. And there's so many different important people that. Who are doing their jobs the best they can. And then to think, like, to be one guy getting 200 people to do it exactly the way you want it and to even have a vision of exactly the way you want it, because that's the other part. It's like, I'm shooting. I'm like, I don't know. I'm not really sure how this is gonna go. You know, like, I'm just in Whole Foods getting attractive looking ingredients, and then I'm. And then we're gonna go. And we're gonna go cook it, but we don't know exactly how we're gonna.

[Pete Holmes]

Cook it, but isn't. Okay. That's how Judd is. And that's how Judd is. Paul Thomas Anderson is.

[Michael Showalter]

I didn't know that that was how Paul Thomas certainly seems that way.

[Pete Holmes]

I already told the story, but I was talking to him about the master and Joaquin jerking on the beach. You know, on the beach. I was like, oh, and that mirrors when Phil Hoffman gets it. And he said. He said, we were just shooting Joaquin. He was just doing whatever he wants to. Which I said. I corrected him. I was like, but it's framed perfectly that you can't see his dick. How did you frame that? Like, how long was he jerking off? That you're. Little bit. I'm seeing that he's just doing this, like, a little bit over.

[Michael Showalter]

It makes me really happy that because. Because I'm so in awe of him and he seems like. I. It just seems so. Like I said, it's so hard to not not. It's not hard in a way of like, I want you to feel bad. Sorry for me.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Michael Showalter]

It's. But it's just, you know, it's so many people involved.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Michael Showalter]

There's so much going on to do it.

[Pete Holmes]

It's simultaneously a control freak's dream.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Because you can be like, shave that mustache.

[Michael Showalter]

Or literally, like, there's two wicker baskets. Which one do you want? And it's like, I want that one. Or like, neither.

[Pete Holmes]

Neither.

[Michael Showalter]

I need neither. Show me four more wicker baskets.

[Pete Holmes]

He said neither. And it's, like, buzzing.

[Michael Showalter]

I need to see four more wicker baskets by tomorrow.

[Pete Holmes]

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[Michael Showalter]

I mean, the best is when you have the prop person, the dear lovely props people, and they're showing you three different backpacks and it's like they're all North Face backpacks. And one's like green and one's dark green and one's dark blue. Jansport and one's Jansport. In all seriousness, most of them are JanSport. I said North Face, but honestly, most of them are JanSport. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You want to jam?

[Michael Showalter]

I got the, I got the proportions wrong. Three of them are JanSport. One of them is.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like an Arnold Pond.

[Michael Showalter]

One of them is. What's that thing? JanSport is Dynasty, Brookhaven. Like, then there's the really cool kind that the, the, the.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, Herschel.

[Michael Showalter]

No. Well, Herschel, yes, amazing.

[Pete Holmes]

Which sounds.

[Michael Showalter]

No, but it's. It's called like Far Haven or sort of. Or.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, Katie knows. But this is so. It's a control freak stream. But it's also like you have to at certain point surrender.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, and. And the thing.

[Pete Holmes]

You can't control everything.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, well, and that's the beauty of it. It's very collaborative.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Now the, the. In the old days, for many, many, many billions of years, movies there wasn't the whole auteur thing. And I'm not gonna act like I know what I'm talking about because I really don't. I have some thoughts about it. But the whole. The studio director was one important person on the set of many important people on set.

[Pete Holmes]

It means the director was called the studio director.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, just, just, just that in the student. When back in the whack in the. The up until the 70s, really the director was just an important person who was. Who was directing the movie. But there was. The writer was important, the production designer was important, the editor was very important. The producers were very important. The actors were very. Everyone was very important and they were all just churning out movies. And some of the movies were better than others. But it was a system. It was st. It was a.

[Pete Holmes]

And then Orson Welles shows up and it's like, oh, you can be a director of pictures.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, more like. And then Cimino and, and, and the. The seventies direct. It was really the seventies directors that, that invent. I mean, yes, Orson Welles, sure. But it feels like the kind of current day idea of the auteur, which is really what we all are. Everyone's very infatuated with that. Many directors are infatuated by the idea that being a director means being that control freak. That that's what being a director is, right? Is being that.

[Pete Holmes]

But then.

[Michael Showalter]

But it's not.

[Pete Holmes]

Paul Thomas Anderson, I think is more hosting a party, which is great.

[Michael Showalter]

Which is. I'm so happy to hear that again.

[Pete Holmes]

He always says the work is in the writing.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, and Richard Linklater is like that. I've heard this about Richard Link.

[Pete Holmes]

We're actually shooting a Linklater Movie. That's how casual he is right now. He doesn't even know he's filming.

[Michael Showalter]

Film this. Yes, but it's like. But that. But that, like, you know, you just want everybody to bring their. To do their best work. You're just trying to get as all. As many talented people together and to somehow convince everybody and enable and empower everybody to do their very best work.

[Pete Holmes]

But isn't there. Sorry.

[Michael Showalter]

And then there are some people who think it's their job is to micromanage everybody and that it's all on them. And that literally in the editing room, I'm gonna like, hold the knobs. I'm gonna put my hand on the editor's hand and turn the knobs for him. Like, right. That, that, that. Not. I'm not saying that that's what Wes Anderson does. That I Even remotely. But that's. I do think a little bit of a misunderstanding about what the role of the. Of the director is, is. It's collaboration. There's 50 zillion people involved. You're just one person.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. Yeah. You can be the host of the party and yeah. At a certain party.

[Michael Showalter]

Setting a tone.

[Pete Holmes]

You're setting a tone.

[Michael Showalter]

Setting a good vibe.

[Pete Holmes]

And isn't the movie. Well, you tell me what you think. I've always thought of it like it's a dream. And at a certain point, like, you're gonna. Let's put it this way. If I read 50 books about Nietzsche and then I do stand up, then I just write stand up. But I'm not even thinking about Nietzsche. Some of that is just gonna be in there. Like my unconscious is gonna put it in there. Similarly, I think Paul Thomas Anderson and the like know their themes.

[Michael Showalter]

Is that what this whole thing gonna be talking about? Paul Thomas?

[Pete Holmes]

You mind? Maya didn't mind.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, let's get Michael Showalter on the show and let's just talk the whole time about how amazing Paul Thomas.

[Pete Holmes]

You said you loved him. I'm trying to. I could have said link letter.

[Michael Showalter]

No. Go to Paul Thomas Sanderson has. Has link later done the show?

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Would love it.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

I just.

[Michael Showalter]

I'm being completely joking.

[Pete Holmes]

I. Of course. I just know that there's a moment where Freddie Quell is trying to steal something from the rich woman's house. And it's a woman. It's a marble woman. He tries to put it in his pocket. It doesn't fit. And it. And all us film geeks go like, isn't that perfect? Freddie can't find love. He literally can't fit a woman into his life. Like she won't fit in the pocket. Pocket. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure if you ask Paul Thomas Anderson, did you get. Did you ask props for a woman slightly too big to fit in his pocket? He'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? I really feel that.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Do you relate? Are you just like, let's just make sure we're pointed in the right direction? 100 Tell me about it.

[Michael Showalter]

100 I just am. I just want to tell the story. I literally am just interested in telling the story and having it feel a certain way and, and. And achieve a certain sort of level of feeling real or something like that. Like my. What I'm going for in the moment is literally just something that feels real. And by real I don't mean actually real. I just mean like. Yeah, we got that.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

You know that there's nothing artif. There's no artifice here. That. That. That. It just felt like it had multi. Was multi dimensional. Like I'm very much just trying to achieve just some kind of like physical sense of like. That felt good. Let's move on.

[Pete Holmes]

I see like a music.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Music. There's a musicality or improv.

[Pete Holmes]

It's funny.

[Michael Showalter]

Or improvisation. Like, I, I, I'm. I'm. And when you say a dream, that actually is a lot of times what it feels like for me. Which is we're in a bubble. It's a safe bubble. The way we are. We're riffing. We're kind of in it. We're. We're.

[Pete Holmes]

This is a tone.

[Michael Showalter]

Our brain is kind of like operating on a different level right now. Where we're just kind of in this bubble.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Michael Showalter]

So I try to keep everything in the bubble. We're in the bubble. We're playing. We're. We're. We're.

[Pete Holmes]

We're safe.

[Michael Showalter]

We're safe. We're emotional. We're very open. We're open. We're raw. We're. This is important. This has value. This in and of itself. In and of itself. Nothing's off limits. Limits.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Take a chance.

[Michael Showalter]

Take a risk. Your feelings matter.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm support.

[Michael Showalter]

Your opinion matters.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. And if you make a joke and I say bong hit, you will join me in whatever soup I'm standing in.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

You'll go, look, I see what happened.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And now you're embarrassed.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

But that's what art is.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. Yes. And so commercial. And so you're a little buzzed. Everyone's got a Little buzz going.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Off of that. And so inside that little buzz, we're not. We're safe. And we're trying to make something great. Because what the hell else are we doing here if we're not doing that?

[Pete Holmes]

I was just talking to somebody, though, my buddy, and we were saying how actually rare it is that people go, let's make something great. Yeah, it's actually, that's. That's one of the reasons, I think. And that's fun watching what a great director you are.

[Michael Showalter]

But, like, that's. Yeah, that's what we were doing on Wet Hop. That's what we were doing. It's always like, let's. We. This is cool that we have this opportunity to do this. This.

[Pete Holmes]

Let's make something great.

[Michael Showalter]

Let's try to make something great.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Let's try to make it special. Let's try to make it count. I think it counts. I think it's special.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And so there's just that. It's love. It's love.

[Pete Holmes]

It's love. I also would add to that. I think it's owning. I'm all about in and of itself right now. So the shoot, the day, the scene, the page should be a reward of itself. Like you, some, like, like in the 60s. We're figuring it out, man. Like, we're doing a scene, but we're present and we're alive. And I'm helping you come alive. You're helping me come alive. The crew's coming along. What a gift. What a gift we get.

[Michael Showalter]

That's for.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Michael Showalter]

We get to do this and, and, and, and, and, and. Let's make it count. Let's have fun.

[Pete Holmes]

But wouldn't you. Would you agree that the first step is saying, almost declaring we're gonna make something great or acknowledging the opportunity, the potential of making something great? I think that's the first step to making something great.

[Michael Showalter]

Sure, sure.

[Pete Holmes]

Some people are like, I think, have you ever had someone sell it, say this? I think we could sell this. Like, that is just a boner killer, right? Like, Mike, I think nobody owns the rights to Goodnight Moon. Like, we're thinking. We're thinking, who plays the moon? We could get, like, a great moon.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's. Look, I'd be lying if I didn't say there's a part of me that. I mean, I. I know what you mean. I. You know. You know what I'll say? I wish I could do that.

[Pete Holmes]

The. I bet we could sell.

[Michael Showalter]

I wish that I had the ability to, like, not need it as Crazy as this is gonna sound, I. This. I really. Sometimes I don't. I love what I do. I don't want to be doing anything else, but there are some times look in my past and say, I wish I'd cared less, almost.

[Pete Holmes]

That's really cool.

[Michael Showalter]

I love what you said so that I could just, like, make some money sometimes and, like. And not have it be so, you know, precious. Precious. And. And I've gotten that advice, like, I can't. I can't do this. I can't do this. You know? Like, you know, and I've gotten better. I've gotten way better at that. I've done plenty of things over the last, you know, 10 or 15 years where I did let go of that part of me that, like. Like any little part of it that wasn't perfect, and I could, you know, or whatever, that it's okay to do something for the money.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Michael Showalter]

It's okay to. It's okay to, like, need to make money and do something that you don't. That. That you don't think is perfect, because as long as no one's getting hurt, you know, as long as basic moral. Yeah, like. Yeah, like, as long as. As. As you can, like, go to sleep at night, go. Go ahead. Go make some money.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, you and I have. I still have residual East Village street cred. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I have the belief.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, but you were the darling.

[Pete Holmes]

You can say darling.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, that for sure. But. No, but you were. No, but you were doing the E trade, baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that was later. And you know what, dude.

[Michael Showalter]

And that. And I was baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Sorry.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, but that's a perfect example of, like, you must have done very nicely. You must have done very nicely as the E trade, baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Michael Showalter]

And that's a great thing. You were, like. Like, you know, having fun, and that was the kind of thing that I.

[Pete Holmes]

Probably would have, like, not gone out for.

[Michael Showalter]

I would have gone out for it, but I wouldn't have gotten it. I. I mean, I probably auditioned for it, actually. I probably even auditioned.

[Pete Holmes]

Almost everyone in New York did.

[Michael Showalter]

But anyway, what were you going to say?

[Pete Holmes]

This is very virtue signaling, but I think it's important. Kumail, our dear friend.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

There was a time when. Let's just put, like, I got E trade, and it helped the community. Can I phrase it sort of vaguely like that?

[Michael Showalter]

What. In what way? Just like, oh, we can get that kind of a job.

[Pete Holmes]

No, if something.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, you were.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I don't. But I'm saying that matters.

[Michael Showalter]

Interesting community. Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Camille's very public about that. He.

[Michael Showalter]

I didn't know that he flapped.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, not enough, apparently. He didn't tell you.

[Michael Showalter]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

But there was a time when we were struggling artists for sure, and if somebody was like, hey, can you loan me this? Or whatever, you'd go to the guy that just booked a commercial, and the guy would be like, this is the best. Like, it was great. And. And Kumail, I. I hope I'll. I'll make sure he doesn't mind me saying, but, like, we get emotional thinking about it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Not just that he received, but that I was able to give. Like, I get emotional because. Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

That opportunity, and we all. We. You were the ep. You were the cash cow.

[Pete Holmes]

I was the Luna page, baby.

[Michael Showalter]

You were the Luna Lounge cash cow.

[Pete Holmes]

I never did Luna Lounge.

[Michael Showalter]

Really?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, that might have been a little before your day.

[Pete Holmes]

It was happening.

[Michael Showalter]

It was probably a little bit. Tiny bit before you.

[Pete Holmes]

I wanted to.

[Michael Showalter]

To do it, because now that I think about it, I bet Camille didn't either, because that would have been just right before your time.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, Kumail, we used to joke, but.

[Michael Showalter]

You guys were, I'm sure, doing. Invite them up.

[Pete Holmes]

We did invite them up.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And Eugene and. And I remember that's probably where I first saw you is. Is you did videos. I'd never seen a comedy community like Rafifi, where you made a video parodying Eugene's videos.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And it was you talking to a webcam. I remember I got this really big laugh that in the middle of it, you took a huge drink of whiskey, and everyone laughed. A certain kind of laugh. You only laugh. It's almost like a church laugh or a summer camp laugh. Like he's making fun of one of the counselors. You know what I mean? Like, Eugene probably is drinking while he's making those. And I was like, what is this? Every comedy club I had been in was like, you know, it was. It was a different act every weekend. There was no community. It wasn't a place.

[Michael Showalter]

No, it.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I found that place. It wasn't a scene.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

So we were a part of a scene. And then that still carries over to me if I get something that might not be cool, but it's for the money. I'm bringing this back to what you were saying. I still have this mentality.

[Michael Showalter]

Let's still do it. Let's still make it great.

[Pete Holmes]

Let's still make it great. I love that. But I'm also like, I should. Maybe I shouldn't do this because I'm supposed to smoke cigarettes with Bobby in front of the Rafifi and be a cool guy. And at a certain point, I had to be like, like, like.

[Michael Showalter]

See, to me, then you get older and you start wanting stuff. Like, then you get older and you start having kids. I have kids. I have kids. I need. I want to be able to afford for them to go to camp. And, like, when the mult and take classes and stuff came through, I called.

[Pete Holmes]

Mark Duplass and I was like, look, I love the script. And I wanted to do it, but I literally didn't know how it would look. I was like, is it too mainstream? Like, I was still going for. Like, I was going for Zach.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I did an HBO show. Now I should do, like, an indie movie or something. This thing came through. I really liked it. I'm so glad I did it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

But for a moment there, East Village pops up and I called him, and you know what Duplass said?

[Michael Showalter]

What'd he say?

[Pete Holmes]

He goes. I said, literally, I go, what are people gonna think when they see my billboard of me and my family with a bowling ball? And he goes, pete. Everyone's gonna think Pete's doing a show. Pete's got kids.

[Michael Showalter]

That's.

[Pete Holmes]

That was like. The first thing he said was, pete's got kids. But, like, there's a certain get over yourself. And that's what Flanny told me too. He was like, stop being so precious.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, when I moved. When I moved to la, I. I stayed in New York, I feel like, longer than anybody. Although I feel like you. You stayed there for a pretty long time too. Maybe.

[Pete Holmes]

I left in 2010.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay. So I was. So I was there till 2014.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow. Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And I'm older than you.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, you were back then, too.

[Michael Showalter]

I was. I've always been older than dad joke. Always been older than you. You always older. I.

[Pete Holmes]

2014. You stayed long?

[Michael Showalter]

I moved out here to be a mid level staff writer on the Rebel Wilson sitcom Super Fun Night.

[Pete Holmes]

Wait. On Warner Brothers.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That's when I was doing my talk show.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I was on stage 10 and you guys were on a different stage. I didn't know we were on the same stage at the same time.

[Michael Showalter]

Yep. I was writing on that possession.

[Pete Holmes]

That's not mid level.

[Michael Showalter]

Wait, my. My writing, my.

[Pete Holmes]

If you were a staff writer, that's entry level. If you were a story editor, I.

[Michael Showalter]

Was on the staff.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, but. Okay, were you called a staff writer? This just sounds like your agent didn't.

[Michael Showalter]

Tell you that you I was like, I think I was like, I think on. I think I was. No, we were credited as, like, associate producer.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Michael Showalter]

But. But. But I certainly wasn't. I certainly wasn't senior. I was in the middle.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Michael Showalter]

There were, like, mid level. Yeah. And I was, you know, showed up on the first day, and the other writers were like, why are you here? Really? Why are you here? Like, what. What are you doing? You're Michael Sch. Why are you.

[Pete Holmes]

That's really funny.

[Michael Showalter]

And I was like, because I need a job.

[Pete Holmes]

And you're like, at least you're better than Tom Green.

[Michael Showalter]

Because I need a job and I need a paycheck.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And. And like, because being recognized in. In Williamsburg by cool people doesn't pay the bills. Having really cool people and Williamsburg think I'm really cool is great, but it doesn't help me put my kids in summer camp.

[Pete Holmes]

No. Unless you can pay for their summer.

[Michael Showalter]

Camp with coat de room. Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Sorry. You had one. That was. Bad host. Bad host. Let the guests do the riff.

[Michael Showalter]

No, no, no, no. I really want. No, no, I want you to. I want you to do the riff.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, but you had one. Unless they pay and I go coat. Michael Coterone.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I said summer cat camp. I said summer camp. Okay. Yeah. Enid's. Enid's.

[Pete Holmes]

Enid summer camp.

[Michael Showalter]

No, Enid's would have been the bar where they were buying me the Cote durone.

[Pete Holmes]

Enidz. Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And I remember Epstein bar, too. Epstein.

[Pete Holmes]

And remember Sugar, the late night.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Diner.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes. Ish.

[Pete Holmes]

It was near sweet, I think.

[Michael Showalter]

I. Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That might have been how we met. You would be co hosting Sweet. Or whatever that was called.

[Michael Showalter]

Sure.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Which was a big deal to the people that were. I believe it.

[Michael Showalter]

He's still doing it to the people. It's still. I went. I actually went just a couple weeks ago. He's in a new venue in Chelsea and it was packed.

[Pete Holmes]

Really packed. I believe it.

[Michael Showalter]

Joe derosa was performing. And here's my.

[Pete Holmes]

Joe derosa. Ask me how the new Star wars was.

[Michael Showalter]

How's the new Star Wars?

[Pete Holmes]

It was fine. That's Joe to Rosa. I feel like if you knew him.

[Michael Showalter]

He has a sandwich shop. Did you know that? Yeah, I didn't.

[Pete Holmes]

Joey Rose's heart ate.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Edit that out.

[Pete Holmes]

We don't want to.

[Michael Showalter]

No plugs. All plugs are.

[Pete Holmes]

You pay for your plugs.

[Michael Showalter]

You pay for the plugs.

[Pete Holmes]

You pay for your plugs.

[Michael Showalter]

The name of the movie is your promoter. That's hilarious.

[Pete Holmes]

I really, really appreciate that when I was directing. Wow. Wow.

[Michael Showalter]

Do you ever do it? No. You should.

[Pete Holmes]

There's no editing the part where. See, to me, when I watch Comedians in Cars getting coffee with Jerry Seinfel, the parts that I loved were when they were ordering coffee. So the part that I love is when you.

[Michael Showalter]

I know, but you should do it. This is a bet for the inside. Just for your fans, as an inside joke. Like, and then I actually did it this time.

[Pete Holmes]

And then I.

[Michael Showalter]

It's funny because it's funny.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, that would require effort.

[Michael Showalter]

It would require effort.

[Pete Holmes]

We could do it.

[Michael Showalter]

Poor Katie.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm like, katie, you want to do it?

[Michael Showalter]

She's like, playing Candy Crush or something.

[Pete Holmes]

Actually, Katie's a great listener. And whenever I go, like, remember when we were talking about. About this? She goes, I know where that is. And she'll lift something out.

[Michael Showalter]

Really?

[Pete Holmes]

Sometimes you have to lift something out interesting. Like that. Like the bong hit thing. That's gone. I'm just kidding. That was one of my favorite moments.

[Michael Showalter]

Did you give her the signal? Like, yeah. Like, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I go back to. We're gonna get to you as a director, but this just came to mind. You as an actor.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

I feel like. I feel like this is a good question. Oh, yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited for you to feel seen, honestly, like. Like, I want you to feel known and like, huh. I'm gonna. I'm in a good little bubble.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Was there a time when you really wanted to be an actor and wanted to be taken seriously as an actor? And the reason I'm asking is because you remember the sketch, the Blueberry guy?

[Michael Showalter]

Sure.

[Pete Holmes]

And when I watched the Blueberry Johnson. Blueberry Johnson is pitching a kid's show, and he looks like a blueberry played by you.

[Michael Showalter]

Yep.

[Pete Holmes]

And the executives are like, we love it. We just don't want you.

[Michael Showalter]

You don't have enough experience. You don't. You don't have enough. You don't have enough. You don't have enough on camera experience. And he says. And he says, like, I. He says, basically, like, I majored in, like, children's education in college. I am passionate about this. I work really hard. And to top it all off, I look like a fucking blueberry.

[Pete Holmes]

I look like a fucking blueberry. And then it ends where he's in the control booth going, cut to camera one.

[Michael Showalter]

Push it. And dissolve. Yeah. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

So there was part of me that when I. I didn't even re. Watch that sketch.

[Michael Showalter]

That's just up there so funny.

[Pete Holmes]

Was there A time when you felt like blueberry, where you were like, why is everyone keep telling me to be behind the camera?

[Michael Showalter]

No, because no one was telling me to be behind the camera either.

[Pete Holmes]

You have an hour and a half, right? You got to be out of here at 9:30.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Showalter.

[Pete Holmes]

Dead serious.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, I think 11:30. Right, right. No, no, 10:30. 10:30. 10. No, 10. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate. I like. Did you draw that? Yeah. Nice. No, but did you draw that? 60. That's cool. On your phone. That's cool. You like, because you could have just, like, you could have done it, done it digitally, but you took time to actually draw it.

[Pete Holmes]

If she didn't say 60, I would be like, we usually get a 90 light. And this is when I go start talking about God, but we're at 60. But we're.

[Michael Showalter]

Do you ever get the light and disregard? Like, do you ever see the light and you're just like, fuck that. Yeah. How often do you do stand up?

[Pete Holmes]

I try to do it. This is gonna make you laugh. Three, four times a month.

[Michael Showalter]

Why is that gonna make me laugh?

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, I'm glad.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, what would make me laugh about that? That it's a lot or not?

[Pete Holmes]

A lot of friends would say it's not a lot.

[Michael Showalter]

That's not a lot.

[Pete Holmes]

I.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I'm saying. No, I'm saying. I'm saying.

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I. I didn't. No, that was me thinking out loud. No, that was. No, that was me going, wait a.

[Pete Holmes]

Second, Pete, My co. My.

[Michael Showalter]

I need to set the record straight here. I was finishing your sentence.

[Pete Holmes]

That. That they think it's not a lot.

[Michael Showalter]

That's what I was doing.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just saying when we were starting, you had to do it every night.

[Michael Showalter]

I have no opinion of whether that's a lot or not a lot.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm now realizing that it was silly to think that you did.

[Michael Showalter]

I know.

[Pete Holmes]

I really am. Why would my.

[Michael Showalter]

I get that there are some people, like the comedy seller crowd that just need to go on stage every night.

[Pete Holmes]

The Cellar Boys.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, The Z. Yeah. That need to go on stage. Well, you. You made a whole television show about that.

[Pete Holmes]

That time in my life was when I was going up every night, sometimes more than once a night.

[Michael Showalter]

And are you doing new material every night? Are you just not even doing material? Are you literally just like, like talking?

[Pete Holmes]

And I'm gonna bring it back to you because I love this generous question.

[Michael Showalter]

What?

[Pete Holmes]

I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So you can. My Val watches me do stand up and she's like, when did you write this? And that's my favorite.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, you're very good at. You're a very good at. You're sweet, generous. You know what that means? Sweet generous. I may not even myself know what sweet generous means, but I think it means like self generating. Like Robin Williams is the sort of. Of the sort of ultimate example of someone who is sweet, generous, salty sweet, who just starts talking and he. And. And 20 minutes later he's still going and it's all hilarious.

[Pete Holmes]

Gift a gab.

[Michael Showalter]

You're a little bit like that.

[Pete Holmes]

What it is, is, and this is, I think applies to what you do as well. And I appreciate what you said and I heard it and I accept it. I didn't want you to think I was doing that thing where I can't take a compliment. Okay, well, very good. I think you do that as well.

[Michael Showalter]

It's.

[Pete Holmes]

I just want access to how I really feel.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I think that's your job as an artist is. Is. We were looking at something and I, I thought it was the, the poster was overtly sexual, but like kind of unconsciously sexual. I started explaining to Val why I thought the poster was sort of subliminally sexual. And I was like, you know, I've noticed something. I'm not as afraid of my shadow as I used to be. Like, there might have been a time where I was like, doesn't. Because the poster, I was like, doesn't it kind of look like the. There an oral sex position? Like, doesn't it sort of look like that? And now I'm just like, I think they designed that to, to look that way. I could be wrong, but that's what it makes me think of. And I think I'm probably not the only one. I think that's our job as artists, is to like, get over it. Like, you think you're not enough. You think if people knew who you were, they wouldn't love you. You're. You're afraid of death, you're. You're afraid of rejection, you're afraid of humiliation. Like, that's everybody. And once you get comfortable, then you can generate. That's what Robin Williams was. He had been humble by his sobriety, by all of these things, and it was really fun to watch him go. I can walk around the mansion of my house, all the doors are unlocked. And that's what makes somebody comfortable improvising or generating. Wouldn't you agree?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, absolutely. I love That I don't like. That I don't like. I've. I like not. I don't like. I. This is fun, but generally speaking, I sort of don't want to hear my own voice.

[Pete Holmes]

I know you mean.

[Michael Showalter]

But I, but, but I mean, that's not to say other people shouldn't do it. It's great. I love actors. I love actors. I don't love acting in the way that I think I once thought I would because I don't give a. About what I have to say as an actor.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, also, didn't you maybe if you were like me, not know that there were other ways to create completely? Like, we kind of thought we had to be.

[Michael Showalter]

The only thing I could. It was the only thing I knew that I had a shot at.

[Pete Holmes]

Because.

[Michael Showalter]

Because you can't. Like, you could go to college and be in an improv group.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Michael Showalter]

Or you could go to college and be in a sketch group. You couldn't go to college and like, write a movie. And it seemed unattainable and sort of like, well, it's a joke.

[Pete Holmes]

You're a little half grown man and you're like, I'm gonna be the big shot. It's like, that's a ridiculous prospect, 100%. But if you could be the actor.

[Michael Showalter]

But you see the improv guys and you're like, that's great. That looks so fun. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

When I watch Old State sketches and stuff, and I watch you and David specifically, I'm like, those are guys that are going to be directors. Like, not I. That sounds like a burn. I feel there's more joy to be had in other ways. That sounds like I'm saying. No, that's not what I'm saying.

[Michael Showalter]

I don't think that's what you're saying. I wouldn't mind.

[Pete Holmes]

Absolutely not. We both have on.

[Michael Showalter]

Almost everyone in the state has directed.

[Pete Holmes]

Not Mike Black.

[Michael Showalter]

Mike Black directed.

[Pete Holmes]

Edit that out.

[Michael Showalter]

Mike Black directed a feature. Mike Black edited a feature starring Isla Isla Fisher and Jason Biggs called Wedding Days.

[Pete Holmes]

Was it good? Despite the direction?

[Michael Showalter]

Yes, very much in. Despite the direction or in spite of the direction? In spite of the direction.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, you're the last member of this day to do the pod. Mike did it and I was shocked. I think we. If you listen to it, he's like, at a time in his life, maybe in between projects, and I was just talking about how great he was and he was like, I just don't know what you're talking about.

[Michael Showalter]

Like, was he on Zoom or is he with You.

[Pete Holmes]

It was on Zoom.

[Michael Showalter]

He was on Zoom.

[Pete Holmes]

But it was really beautiful.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, he's very self deprecating.

[Pete Holmes]

Very self deprecating. But his Persona is so like, you're welcome.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And then you talk to him and he's like, I don't know if I'm ever going to work again. And I was like, like, it was beautiful.

[Michael Showalter]

He's a very sweet man.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what I mean.

[Michael Showalter]

He's a very sweet, lovely person.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I completely agree. Let's talk. Just because we are running out of time. Not really time.

[Michael Showalter]

And I feel like you asked me a question that we moved off of that was, do you remember you asked me about Blueberry Johnson? And.

[Pete Holmes]

And did you feel that way?

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, did I feel. And I wanted to be. I wanted to be a successful actor because it's what I felt like I wanted to be without having the feelings that I've now believe you need to feel, which is like what I said, which is like, you know that I am my best self doing this.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And I never felt that way. And never one time felt that way. Way. So when I. My big aha moment was when I went and saw a play at the Lincoln Center. A Chekhov play. Not that that matters, but it was a Chekhov play. And I was joyfully watching it. And it occurred to me, like, I wonder if I should be thinking, I wish I was in this show, or I wish that's so, like, thinking about the acting. And I wasn't. I was just enjoying it as an audience member. And somehow that really struck me is like, oh, you're not an actor.

[Pete Holmes]

I love you.

[Michael Showalter]

Not supposed to be an actor. Like, other actors would be watching this, thinking about themselves, you know, in some way.

[Pete Holmes]

That's my. One of my old bits. It's like an opener as I go. Like, is anyone here thinking, like, maybe you'll get invited on stage? Because I've never been to a play without thinking like, they're gonna pre. Pre fame. I mean, little boy. Like they're gonna ask me to get on stage.

[Michael Showalter]

Even a show that they don't do that on. On.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what I mean.

[Michael Showalter]

There's lots of shows where they never invite in, where you watch the whole show and they'll never invite.

[Pete Holmes]

Not like, it's a bit. We're going in.

[Michael Showalter]

The audience always bring. Always bring kids on.

[Pete Holmes]

I always tried to do that. And I got a big laugh once they gave me rings.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, so you'd be like psychedelic on stage and then. And then try to get laughs I did get laughs.

[Pete Holmes]

I correct you. I did get laughs because he gave me two rings and he said, try and separate them. And I. And he turned and he was talking to them.

[Michael Showalter]

How old are you? You.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm like eight. And he comes back and he goes, did you separate them? And I go, I did, but I put them back together. Big laugh.

[Michael Showalter]

Funny laugh. Funny.

[Pete Holmes]

Big laugh.

[Michael Showalter]

Funny joke.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. This means a lot to me.

[Michael Showalter]

That's a really funny joke for an eight year old.

[Pete Holmes]

This means a lot to me.

[Michael Showalter]

That's. For an eight year old. That's a funny joke.

[Pete Holmes]

That was good. That was good. I really appreciate.

[Michael Showalter]

And did you. Did you just. Is that just what came out of your mouth or did you actually plan? Janet?

[Pete Holmes]

I. I think I thought of it a moment or two before he. He asked.

[Michael Showalter]

Because that's really funny.

[Pete Holmes]

I also thank you. I deeply appreciate.

[Michael Showalter]

That's genuinely funny.

[Pete Holmes]

I love this moment.

[Michael Showalter]

Unexpected. Unexpected.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. From a child.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Here's what I want to cover. Just before we're out of here or.

[Michael Showalter]

Or anybody, really. That's like a really funny. You know, like.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a Zach joke. Yeah, it's like a Zach. Sort of like I did, but I put them back together.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Like you, like throw away the. Yeah, go ahead.

[Pete Holmes]

I just wanted to talk about sobriety. I remember the last time I saw you at union Hall. You punched me. No, I'm just kidding. But I. I just remember you seems.

[Michael Showalter]

I puked on you.

[Pete Holmes]

You did a little.

[Michael Showalter]

What I seem so. What?

[Pete Holmes]

No, I'm saying now. Oh, you. You seem like you've leveled the plane.

[Michael Showalter]

What happened at union Hall?

[Pete Holmes]

I just remember. I think you had just gone through a breakup or something and it wasn't even alcohol or drug related.

[Michael Showalter]

I just remember it was probably very unhappy. I think I was. Yeah. Because I hadn't. Yeah, that was like I was. Yeah, I was sort of. Because I wasn't a comedian.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

I was like, what am I doing here?

[Pete Holmes]

We were sitting by the bocce courts. I was starstruck and enjoying it very much. And the reason I'm bringing that up is not to embarrass you at all. Now I see you and you have a light. And I have to assume that has to. You figured some things out, including sobriety. Question mark?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, sure, sure. I'm not absolutely. I mean, I. Look, I have been. I am very me. I. I don't have a big philosophy about this, but it's not like, I don't me. I'm not super jonesing to talk about sobriety Only because I will a little bit. Only because I don't feel like qualified. You don't want to be. I understand. But I definitely stopped a long time ago. It's been almost 20 years.

[Pete Holmes]

Love it.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Yep. And I did want it.

[Pete Holmes]

Now I'm like, I don't want to ask the wrong question. Let's just say we can edit anything out. Did you decide?

[Michael Showalter]

I decided there was no rehab. There was no intervention. It was a boozy booze. Boozy booze? Yeah, boozy booze. And it, but it was, it was really just. But it was, it was a spiritual bottom more than anything.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell me.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, it was just. Oh, God. It's too much. It's too much. We don't. Time. We don't have time. We don't have time.

[Pete Holmes]

This should have been my first.

[Michael Showalter]

We don't have time. And it and it and it and it. Again, in a way it's the, A little bit. For me it's that six degrees of separation thing, which is the more I tell the story, the less meaning it has.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't know that's what six degrees is.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, that's what it means to me.

[Pete Holmes]

I loved that. I know exactly.

[Michael Showalter]

I, I, my, my, I heard. And maybe I heard it wrong, but the sort of, the idea of six degrees of separation is like every time a story gets retold or something along these lines, it's like slightly less so. So it's like it's my story. Yeah, it's nothing mind blowing, I promise you that. Yeah, it's nothing. It's nothing earth shattering or book worthy or anything like that, but it's my story. And in a sense the more when I tell it, it takes something.

[Pete Holmes]

You've given me a great gift today because I've actually had some spiritual experience, sometimes psychedelic experiences. I tell the story and I'm like, I can feel it. It gets one click. It starts becoming the story instead of what it was.

[Michael Showalter]

Exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh my God.

[Michael Showalter]

So I'm so glad that's what you just said. That's exactly what it is. Because I can't, I can't explain it to you in a way that, that will just, that will, that will make it. That will make it. It's like I'm trying to convince you. I'll get into this thing where I'm like trying to convince you of something.

[Pete Holmes]

You're persuading me.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And not telling the story.

[Michael Showalter]

Which, which, which if, which as you know, is the, you know, the, you know, you know, it was so bad. I Want you to. Here's a battle. I don't give a shit how bad it was. Well, the beats.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I remember in church when people would share their testimonies, there were people that would love it. I used to hate it. They'd tell their stories and they'd be like, was it a rainy night? And I'm just like, yeah. It becomes a monologue.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Like an audition.

[Michael Showalter]

I remember when I was in high school, it was a very big honor to be. Are we done? Is it time? Time? Am I getting the hook? It was.

[Pete Holmes]

We do have a hook.

[Michael Showalter]

This is fun. You good? You created a very nice.

[Pete Holmes]

A very safe space. Well, it takes two.

[Michael Showalter]

It takes the. I was in something called peer group, which was basically you. You got chosen to be a peer group leader. And then you would lead the freshmen in, like, after school things. You'd talk about drugs and sex and social. Adolescent stuff. Stuff.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And to be a peer group leader was a big honor. And it really just meant you were popular. Like, at the time, I wanted it really badly because it was like. It was a bit of a popularity contest. Who got chosen to. It was nothing to do with that. What? Actually wanting to help, of course. Kids.

[Pete Holmes]

That was orientation staff in college.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. So where'd you go to college? Doesn't matter.

[Pete Holmes]

It's boring. I went to Christian college called Gordon College.

[Michael Showalter]

Know it?

[Pete Holmes]

No one does.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Not even the people that go there. I'm just kidding.

[Michael Showalter]

Gordon. See, he just. They just. The words just come out.

[Pete Holmes]

Gordon.

[Michael Showalter]

Gordon. My joke is my daughter does that. She. She. You'll say something and then she'll, like, be like. Like, you'll say a word or something. And then she's like, disappointed. Like, I remember we recently, someone said disappointed, and she's like, disappointed. Disappointed.

[Pete Holmes]

I love that.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. She just repeats when I'm in the.

[Pete Holmes]

Most, like, tuned in, like, very present. People will be like, I was aghast. I'll just be like. Because it's this reminder for me. It's playful. You're creating reality.

[Michael Showalter]

That's what it is.

[Pete Holmes]

And you're ingesting and making what they're saying part of you.

[Michael Showalter]

I have this thing and I catch myself doing it all the time, which is. I repeat everything twice.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Okay. So, Tommy, two times.

[Michael Showalter]

Two times. And that's what I'm always going. I'm like. I'm telling me two times. I'll be like. Someone will be say, you know, did that in directing situation. You know, was that good? Was that. Was that. Did I do that the right way, I'll be like, it was perfect. It was perfect.

[Pete Holmes]

I love it.

[Michael Showalter]

And I. But I. But I. That's the least example of it. It would be like anything. By the way, when I say something, I have an opinion, I repeat it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. When I'm writing, I write like that. And sometimes the software will go, do you want to remove this repeated?

[Michael Showalter]

Well, because it kind of takes on new meaning every day. Repetition is the best. I love repetition.

[Pete Holmes]

It's. I'm a big mammoth guy, and you'll put five fucks in there, and a great actor will play each fuck a different way. And you're like, oh, my God. It's like, I got the chills just thinking about it. So you were in high school. You were one of these cool, popular people.

[Michael Showalter]

And there was a day where, like, in the first meeting, you sort of tell your story or something. Like, I don't know, like, you have in peer group, you sort of do the session amongst the seniors during the day, and then after school, you have your freshmen, and then you lead them through the same conversation. So, you know, fifth period was peer group with an adult teacher, and he would lead us, and. And there was. And everyone would go. And it was like, you know, oh, my God.

[Pete Holmes]

So.

[Michael Showalter]

And so cried today in peer group. And all of a sudden, it's like you felt pressure to come up with something where you could cry.

[Pete Holmes]

You're bringing back a feeling of a time that is the feeling of adolescence. It's like, okay, for me. Yeah, how do I cry? How do I cry?

[Michael Showalter]

Like, I need to tell a story. Like, I'm not cool now. I'm not cool if I don't tell a story about my. Something that happened to me that gets me to, like, that gets me to a cry place.

[Pete Holmes]

I am blown away with how well, you heard me when sharing testimonies, I didn't have a good one. Mine was like, I was born a Christian. That was it. And this woman had, like, a conversion story. I can't do it. I can't compete.

[Michael Showalter]

Exactly, exactly. 100%. Like, I'm. I feel like I'm less of a person because, like, I can't bring myself. I don't have the big thing. And what did I. What was the point of saying that? I don't know. We were talking about something that connected.

[Pete Holmes]

Sobriety in the story. And when you tell a story too many times.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes, yes. And then. And then. And then it's like, I'm, oh, I told my story. And you're like, okay, that's A good story. And then suddenly I feel shitty about my story, and it's like, I don't need that.

[Pete Holmes]

Mulaney has a bit about it where he's like, when you're dating, you tell the story. You're like, we were 13. We were going through the reeds, and we found a body. We didn't know what it was at first. And then when you're 30, you're like, I found a dead body. You just get tired of telling the same stories over and over.

[Michael Showalter]

You mean in dating? In dating, like, I have to tell them my. Like your fifth grade. I have to catch them up to, like. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I stayed in relationships too long because.

[Michael Showalter]

I was like, I didn't want to have to do this again. Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I have a brother. He's older.

[Michael Showalter]

Like, it's just. You should just give them a. Like a. You know, like a. They need a Previously document.

[Pete Holmes]

Previously on Michael.

[Michael Showalter]

Here's my. Here's all my stories. Here's all the important information. You can just.

[Pete Holmes]

I really think there's a sketch. Previously on.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And you. You can skip it. Yeah, like, skip, recap. But then you don't have to do it. Well, here's. Here's our way into the last section, and we'll do it briefly. But when I saw you, I complimented you specifically on Tammy Faye, and I didn't know the Oscars had happened and.

[Michael Showalter]

So did you not know that Will Smith had slapped Chris?

[Pete Holmes]

No, I did, but I wasn't watching them.

[Michael Showalter]

You didn't connect it.

[Pete Holmes]

And you know what else was true is I did check to see if Jessica won, and I was very happy that she did.

[Michael Showalter]

Before I saw you or after I saw you?

[Pete Holmes]

It was before I saw you. It was the day after the Oscars, but I forgot.

[Michael Showalter]

You forgot?

[Pete Holmes]

I just.

[Michael Showalter]

That's fine.

[Pete Holmes]

Not to sound like a Johnny Cool Camel, but I don't care. I don't care about those things.

[Michael Showalter]

But I, you know, it's interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

Like, that she won.

[Michael Showalter]

You know, it's interesting. Well, go ahead, keep talking. I'm not going.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell me what's interesting.

[Michael Showalter]

I. No, no, I want you to continue.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I did compliment. Only because we're running out of time. I did compliment how you framed religion. Religion. Spirituality. And I actually re. Watched it last night, which was a pleasure. And that scene where she's going into the church, it's just so hard.

[Michael Showalter]

The first scene.

[Pete Holmes]

The first scene, but also just throughout her faith being a blend of kitchy, kooky, but also Ernest. And you really thread that she really believes.

[Michael Showalter]

She really has. She. That's the. That's the tragedy of hers, that she's a true believer.

[Pete Holmes]

I believe that. And I saw it.

[Michael Showalter]

It.

[Pete Holmes]

And I saw someone who was raised religious. Whenever religion is portrayed, it's almost always like, Kathy Bates believes in Jesus. So she's going to murder you or whatever. It's your insane, zealous.

[Michael Showalter]

It's. It's zealotry.

[Pete Holmes]

It's zealotry. Or it's. Or it's crest white. Like mean girls. They're like, I'll pray for you. And then they're like c. You know, like that. That's the joke is like they're phony.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Or they're zealous.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Or there's. You never see. Michael. We woke up. I always say this, but we woke up in a conundrum. You and I became conscious in a very confusing. We're out in outer space.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

We're in these expiring meat suits. You know what I'm saying? And earnest. What is this? Ness is. Is off the table because. Because religion's been ruined by, like, homo.

[Michael Showalter]

And I don't like that at all.

[Pete Holmes]

And xenophobia and all this stuff. But, like, when you. You see a movie like you made. This is a good compliment. I hope you feel it is like some people, actually all people are just doing their best. We're trying to figure out some framework for the universe. And it doesn't mean I'm homophobic and it doesn't mean I think you're going to hell. It can mean I'm trying to have a relationship with the mystery if 100%. And when I told you that, I actually was very delighted. Forgive my bias, but I do like when people like you are like, no, I. I'm. I'm interested in that.

[Michael Showalter]

Very interested.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell me everything.

[Michael Showalter]

No, and. And I. I mean, I was raised the opposite. I was raised very much in that mindset of religious people are. Are, you know, unenlightened. The irony of that.

[Pete Holmes]

Opiate of the masses.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. And that. It's.

[Pete Holmes]

The irony of that is great.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. Because it's. Yes. Yeah. You know, that. That believing in God and all that stuff is dogmatic and bogus and all of that. And probably for good reason because they were. My parents were. My mother's Jewish. My father's an Episcopalian. That was their gross.

[Pete Holmes]

Edit that out.

[Michael Showalter]

Edit that out. They both. My mother was disowned for marrying my father. So there's a lot of baggage around sort of the way in which having been raised with religion was something to shed a sort of a.

[Pete Holmes]

Sure, it's not safe. Your mother fell in love and didn't convert, but had turned her back on her faith. And now you see what those constraints can do.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. And then it's really nothing to do with. It's really got nothing to do with spiritual principles or anything like that. It's just tribal. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so there was a kind of a healthy amount of disdain, I would say, for. For that. Or at least that's what I perceived.

[Pete Holmes]

What a trauma.

[Michael Showalter]

That's what I perceived.

[Pete Holmes]

Sad for your. I had couples like that in our high school.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

That the families didn't talk because one was Jewish and one was Protestant.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah. And so that. That I perceived that and I didn't. My. Myself didn't really have an opinion other than that. Like, as a kid, you're like, do you believe in God? No, I don't believe in God. You know, that was. My whole thing was like, I don't believe in God. But I didn't really. I didn't really ever think about it or anything. And then, you know, you go through life and you go through life believing that you are the center of the universe. And this is getting into sobriety stuff where everything you do is something you did, and whatever you get from it is for you. And. And that you're not a part of anything bigger than yourself.

[Pete Holmes]

It's not interconnected.

[Michael Showalter]

You're just yourself and it's you against the. And.

[Pete Holmes]

Which, by the way, is such a great way to suffer.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Is to deny the interconnectivity of all things. And the way to stop suffering is to recognize that even if things aren't going your way or whatever, that you are part. You're interdependent.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Things not going my way. My hurt heart might help me connect to you and we both heal. That's. That's joy. And that it doesn't have to be tied to a religious system. 100% isolation is a really good way to live and die.

[Michael Showalter]

All these religions, yourself. Lots of good things to say and lots of good ideas. So the spiritual bottom that I referenced earlier in the. In this pod, in this episode of your podcast was one of. Of. I'm sick of being the center of the universe. I'm sick of the burden of everything being about me.

[Pete Holmes]

This is a good definition of conversion, by the way. Way.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I'm just saying.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, I think. I think that my. I think we, and I think we talked about this at all time. We did, yeah. Edit that out. All time.

[Pete Holmes]

Everyone knows I live near all time. Okay, but come say hi.

[Michael Showalter]

We don't want anyone eating, going to all time.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Michael Showalter]

We don't want to that out. Right?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's right. Edit it out.

[Michael Showalter]

I'm just trying to do your bit. Look, I'm just trying to. I'm trying to jump on your bit and you're like, oh, no, he's doing it wrong.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no. For a second I thought you were just like, people can't know. People know where.

[Michael Showalter]

No, I was joking. Jumping on the bed is ego. Deflation was the big thing for me, which is literally like humility just being like admitting that I'm not the center of the universe, that I'm not as great as I think I am, that, that everybody's awesome, everybody's fallible, it's not all about me. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's that this is it. Sing that. That is the single most. Been the single most mind blowing concept to me, me. And, and I really do God, whatever. I. The. This sort of the spiritual concepts around the, the. The. The sort of. The, the greater purpose and, and, and the kind of meaning of life. Let's say that what's the meaning of life. Of life is to live and be a good person. So what's. What does it mean to be a good person? Well, you got to go figure that out. That's all. That was the big aha moment for me. And the whole sort of like, God is stupid. You're stupid. I have no time for that. That's boring. I, I can't be that person. So I'm very cynical. I'm very jaded in all these different. In all these different ways. But the eyes of Tammy Faye is very sincere year story about someone who. Well, the finale, believes deeply in. In. In the. The utopian concept that God is love loves everybody and that God is. Is loving and that we could love each other and that love has healing power and blah, blah, blah.

[Pete Holmes]

And also symbols mean more to people than individuals. She seemed to understand her. I know you can tease her Persona, but ask the gay community what it meant to have a Christian woman on Christian tv. It was game changer speaking for them. Yeah, Richard Rohr, who's my homeboy, he's a Franciscan friar. And some people are like, why won't you leave the priesthood? You're so groovy, so outside the box. And I'm like, no, it matters to have someone who's in the system tell you in the same way that it matters that you're a comedian. You say, that was funny. That was funny. You know what I mean?

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

We were transferred. This is young Carl Jung. We're transformed by symbols, not by ideas or people. It's like you want Batman, you want Tammy Faye, you want a priest or a monk in a robe. These things matter, and it's how our subconscious.

[Michael Showalter]

Really? Yeah. Like Pima. Pima Chodron.

[Pete Holmes]

Pima Chodron.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah, There you go. She's a monk.

[Pete Holmes]

I just wanted to say one of the things you said. Lama Surya Das, who did this podcast, he always says, rest your weary mind. And it's like, that's peace. Michael Showalter, recognizing that he can't keep carrying it all and acting like he has it together, that breaking that change is what I hear when Jesus is saying, lest a grain of wheat die and crack, it won't grow into a plant. So that was your sort of death and resurrection. If you'll allow that. If you're okay with that, sort of.

[Michael Showalter]

Absolutely.

[Pete Holmes]

Because the young people that go go, I got it. Pete matters. It's about Pete. When that dies. For me, it was. My divorce has a lot of these different humiliations.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, there's that fear. They talk about it in. In, you know, in sobriety vocabulary. They talk about being the hole in the donut. Have you heard of this? No. The. The fear is. I don't even. I never really got it, but I'll. But I sort of get it. You know, I do get it now. The fear is, if I let go of this idea that everything's about me, then I will be the hole in the donut.

[Pete Holmes]

That's.

[Michael Showalter]

That's beautiful. What. What. What will. What will I be tomorrow if I let go of the notion today that everything isn't about me?

[Pete Holmes]

That's why in.

[Michael Showalter]

Not just fear is, I will be the hole in the donut. I will cease to exist. And. And there's something. Something so terrifying about letting go of that idea that now I can't say for sure if I've, like, succeeded at that, but I can say. I can't even imagine the version of me that couldn't let go of that. And it took me a really long time.

[Pete Holmes]

That's it.

[Michael Showalter]

And. But when you let go of it, you go, oh, I'm still alive. I'm still walking around like I'm. I'm still a person. I'm still. I'm still myself.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, when you do the thing and I'm safe. Thought you couldn't do. When you do the thing you thought you couldn't do and you do it, then you must not be what you thought you were.

[Michael Showalter]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Michael Showalter]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

So you were afraid if you let go of that illusion of control.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

That you would be the hole in the donut. And then you realized you're still here, so you must not be the thing that couldn't do that.

[Michael Showalter]

And this still, when you. When you're still. When you have the I'm still here moment, that's the. That's the biggest thing is. Oh, that's the huge moment is when you. You actually get to the other side of the thing that you didn't think you could get to the other side of. And you get to the other side of it and you're like, oh, shit. Now. Now I'm really starting to see things in a different way.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. That's conversion. I don't mean religious conversion. I mean, you.

[Michael Showalter]

Spiritual conversion. 100%. Oh, yeah. Oh, no uncertain terms. I have been.

[Pete Holmes]

I love it and I feel it. I see it. I just love it so much. If you're not who you thought you were, who are you? And that's what we're here to figure out. And it's not Michael. It's not Michael from Princeton, New Jersey, who did this. And this. And this. It's who you are in this moment. It's how you interpret reality in this eternal present. This is who you are, and it's what's looking out your eyes so much more than it is your likes and your dislikes and what you've done and your accomplishments and whether or not you were at the bar when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock. Were you?

[Michael Showalter]

I wasn't at the bar. I was in my seat.

[Pete Holmes]

You saw it.

[Michael Showalter]

I saw it.

[Pete Holmes]

Can I ask you, was it. I didn't even intend. That was just a comedy bit. Yeah, it was really traumatic for me. Yeah, it was horrible. Like, everyone was doing bits like that night, and I was like, oh, no, I hate.

[Michael Showalter]

It was horrible. It was one of the worst experiences I've ever had.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, right. For me, too. And I only saw it after.

[Michael Showalter]

It was horrible.

[Pete Holmes]

I couldn't sleep that night.

[Michael Showalter]

I. Well, then Jessica Chastain won Best Actress and it was like we had then. I was really happy because you didn't want to let that moment people say, why was everybody having fun and partying? Is because everyone in that room had worked for three years or more on whatever movie they were there representing and didn't want to let that moment ruin their night.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

You know, we worked for years on the eyes of Tammy fan. I wasn't gonna, like, wallow in. In. In it, but. But it was. I didn't. Most of us, Most people didn't realize that he had actual made, like, slapped him. I thought it was bit where I. Where I was. What. What was traumatic was the second part where he was screaming at him.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And that's where everyone sunk in like, oh, this isn't a bit.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

And that's where it got really, really weird. But I still didn't even realize he had actually slapped him until later. Wow.

[Pete Holmes]

Then I found there was a second level of trauma, which was then acting like it didn't happen.

[Michael Showalter]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I really.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, you don't know what to do. You just don't know what to do.

[Pete Holmes]

I can sympathize with that. But then there also, like, in any familial trauma, the, The. The thing that makes it hurt the most is when the family pretends nothing happened. And I. And that's what I felt we were doing as a nation. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I didn't. I. I actually really brought that up.

[Michael Showalter]

No. But I just needed to set the record straight. I was in my chair.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

I wasn't at the bar.

[Pete Holmes]

You were not at the bar.

[Michael Showalter]

I did spend some time down there, but at the bar. At the bar area or sort of like big lobby area.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. I have to imagine a lot of people ran to the bar during the weirdness.

[Michael Showalter]

Well, the show just goes on forever. You have to get up and, like, get some snacks.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Showalter]

I love it so.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I loved your God answer. I didn't mean to tarnish it with.

[Michael Showalter]

Not in the least clickbait. In the least.

[Pete Holmes]

We're not going to make clickbait. I'm just saying, like, that's not the show. What a beautiful thing. And. And really, just to practice what we. We're talking about, it's like in this moment, it's just nice to see someone so spacious. This and here. And I'm happy for you.

[Michael Showalter]

Thanks, Pete. You too. It's been really fun.

[Pete Holmes]

I've loved it. I. I was nervous you weren't going to do it because I still think of you as East Village Mike. That won't do a dumb podcast, but I'm so glad you did. East Village Mike, can I ask you one more?

[Michael Showalter]

Please.

[Pete Holmes]

Can you think of a time in your life when you laughed really, really hard to Take the pressure out of it. It doesn't have to be a good story. Just who are you with? How old are you?

[Michael Showalter]

You. My God.

[Pete Holmes]

Maybe you were a kid. These are the prompts. Maybe someone bringing me to.

[Michael Showalter]

You're bringing me to a fall. No, you're bringing me quickly to. I. You said East Village Mike. And so I thought. Was thinking about invite them up. And that was Eugene's show. And. And we went. Me and Eugene and Leo toured once.

[Pete Holmes]

Leo Allen.

[Michael Showalter]

Leo Allen toured once, as we were called. We had. With some ridiculous name that Eugene made up that of course I'm going to forget. But it was like the Comedy Men from Outer Space or something like that. He came up some funny name for our tour. And it was like the comedy Men from Outer Space. And we got hooked on a song by. Oh, I'm gonna forget his name. He's a country singer. But it was all about the Taliban. It was a song about the Taliban. And it was so. And it was all about how we're gonna kick the Taliban in the butt and stuff like that. I think I remember that. It was some. Toby. Toby Keith. Okay, Toby Keith. And the three of us passionately singing that song. Song in the car along with the lyrics and just thinking, just finding that road we seen. Yes. The three of us singing the lyrics to Keith. Toby Keith's Taliban song at the top of our lungs and just dying laughing because we knew how silly it was. You said East Village Mike. That's what jumps.

[Pete Holmes]

You did it.

[Michael Showalter]

That's what jumped him.

[Pete Holmes]

First of all, one of the hardest things to direct is to me, recreate is in a car. Because usually hot and it's a rig and it's just not natural. And those moments, so they're really unique. They're like little unicorns. And when me and Chris Thayer would travel around, we were singing the Listrine song. Do you remember? It was a bottle of Listerine swinging on a vine. And it would go.

[Michael Showalter]

That was a song.

[Pete Holmes]

And we must have been stressed out of our fucking minds because we were. Were screaming it, like even louder than that in a little rental car driving through Texas or wherever we were. And we. Afterwards, we talked about it. We were like, that was primal scream therapy.

[Michael Showalter]

Like, we felt clear as a bell and we were screaming, oh, my God, that is so funny.

[Pete Holmes]

You really brought me to that. It's an incredible memory.

[Michael Showalter]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's what that is. Primal scream therapy. Car singing is primal scream therapy, I think.

[Pete Holmes]

And Valerie told me that, like, your vagus nerve is actually. Which Regulates stress and stuff is activated when you sing. So like singing. We're supposed to sing.

[Michael Showalter]

It's supposed.

[Pete Holmes]

It like helps us and man. And then he would sing Bob Seeger. It'd go. She was a little bit older and a lot less solo than she used to be.

[Michael Showalter]

And.

[Pete Holmes]

And we have video of me and I'm filming it and I'm dying louder. Rock and roll. Like just. Just doing it now.

[Michael Showalter]

Felt good.

[Pete Holmes]

It felt so good. So what?

[Michael Showalter]

Seager's the best.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Every time he comes on, my dad goes. His follow is a poet, you know? And I'm such a little boy that wants him to see me. And I go, your son's a comedian.

[Michael Showalter]

I just always want to make it about. Say that.

[Pete Holmes]

No, but he. He loves Bob Seeger and he loves. But I'm always like, look at me, daddy. It's actually quite sad. What a sad moment. He sees me. I'm just so needy. Like I. I'll never get enough attention from my parents. So I'm always like. But I'm special too, right, Mikey?

[Michael Showalter]

At least you know that. That's the main thing.

[Pete Holmes]

That's it. I can go through all the rooms. Yeah, that's the generator thing.

[Michael Showalter]

I love it, buddy. Thank you. Awesome. All right.

[Pete Holmes]

Congrats on Eyes of Tammy. F. Anything else you want to plug?

[Michael Showalter]

I love that for you. The new Vanessa Bear show. It's showtime.

[Pete Holmes]

Love that title.

[Michael Showalter]

I love that. Free you. Vanessa Bear, Molly Shannon, Jennifer Lewis, Vanessa.

[Pete Holmes]

Bear, Matt Rogers, who famously only to me has ducked this podcast two or three times. Interesting.

[Michael Showalter]

Interesting.

[Pete Holmes]

And I feel like we can play siblings. I feel this weird kinship.

[Michael Showalter]

Got to get her on. She's so funny. She's so funny in the show.

[Pete Holmes]

She's just busy.

[Michael Showalter]

Jesse Klein is the showrunner. Oh, wow.

[Pete Holmes]

Changed my life.

[Michael Showalter]

I'm an executive producer on the show and that's high level. And I directed a few episodes and I'm very excited about it.

[Pete Holmes]

Very good.

[Michael Showalter]

So edit that out. Out. Edit that out. I took away your bit because you. What you were about to do was about to be funny. Cuz you were going to go very good at it. All that out.

[Pete Holmes]

But you did it. Don't you see how that was? Redempt. You did it the last time you did it. I didn't. I thought you were serious or something. It was.

[Michael Showalter]

It's a contagious bit.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a contagious.

[Michael Showalter]

It's a bit that makes me want to do the bit. Michael Black used to do this thing. You should have asked him this darn you maybe you could call up and do a follow up, up thing where he would, you'd be in an elevator. This is funny. Okay. This is funny. He would touch them on their clothes, but they wouldn't know it. So he would touch them in a place where they wouldn't feel it. So you don't feel that. Right.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like a magic trick.

[Michael Showalter]

So you'd be in the, you'd be in the elevator and the person in front of you would have, have a bag on or something and he would touch the bag or, or, or have a coat and there'd be like a little wrinkle in the coat and he would just touch the wrinkle.

[Pete Holmes]

Neat.

[Michael Showalter]

And I had to start doing that bit, of course. So it's the kind of bit, it's the highest compliment. It was the kind of bit that I just like. You just be like, that bit looks so fun to do. And so we would, it would be a race to see who could touch the thing. And so it's like, you know, you've got some like big strong guy in front of you and he's wearing like a, A, a hoodie. And you touched, you just touched that.

[Pete Holmes]

Hoodie until the reflective doors of the elevator. Did you touch my.

[Michael Showalter]

And that's happened?

[Pete Holmes]

It has.

[Michael Showalter]

It's happened where you get caught? Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

To you.

[Michael Showalter]

It happened to me once I touched the rim of a guy's cowboy hat.

[Pete Holmes]

And did he say.

[Michael Showalter]

He was just like. It was scary, like, what are you doing? And I just was like, acted like nothing happened, but it was this guy in a cowboy hat and I touched.

[Pete Holmes]

That's one of my favorite frequencies that human mammals can do, which is the agreed upon on. Let's just act like it didn't happen. Like it's a thing we do. We'll just choose select all. Delete Open Apple A. Delete. That's a 90 minute callback and I'm proud of it.

[Michael Showalter]

Open Apple.

[Pete Holmes]

Open Apple D. Open Apple D. Would that delete it?

[Michael Showalter]

I think so.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm pretty Open Apple D. It depends on what program you're in.

[Michael Showalter]

We'll look into it, Mike. Thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

We have the guests say keep it crispy.

[Michael Showalter]

Okay. Keep it crispy.

[Pete Holmes]

You didn't even need it crispy.

[Michael Showalter]

Keep it crispy. Keep it crispy. Thank you.