Rabbi Mordecai Finley

Summary

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You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Guest: Rabbi Mordecai Finley
Date: November 8, 2023

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Episode Overview

Main Theme:
Comedian Pete Holmes sits down with Rabbi Mordecai Finley (“The Black Belt Rabbi”) for a wide-ranging, lively, and deeply insightful conversation on wisdom, spirituality, the human shadow, parenting, humor, the nature of evil, and living well. Their discussion blends psychology, philosophy, religion, and comedy, offering practical and profound perspectives for navigating life’s weirdness.

Rabbi Finley draws from his diverse background as a rabbi, martial artist, scholar, and counselor, while Pete brings humor and vulnerability as they together explore what it means to lead a wise and meaningful life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

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1. Defining the “Official Beverage” of Religions and Jewish Symbolism

[03:50–08:00]

• Pete humorously speculates about the “official beverage” for world religions (wine for Christianity, milk for Hinduism, coffee for Islam/Middle East, tea for Buddhism, etc.).
• Rabbi Finley explains that, although wine is present in Jewish ritual, Jews typically don’t claim a beverage as “official” and discusses the role of sacramental wine.
• Pete asks about the Star of David’s origins—Rabbi Finley clarifies it is a relatively late symbol with little ancient precedent:

  “Usually when I say things, I’ve looked it up. Not always... But clearly the Zionist movement needed a symbol, we need a flag, and that was decided upon.” (Rabbi Finley, 07:55)

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2. Kosher Laws, Wisdom, and the Nature of Spiritual Duty

[08:19–12:00]

• Pete and Rabbi Finley discuss the logic behind kosher dietary laws, relating them to hygiene and cultural boundaries.
• Rabbi Finley sharpens the conversation around what constitutes wisdom:

  “I think it’s the most important thing a human being can learn. One reason people suffer is because they don’t have wisdom.” (Rabbi Finley, 12:02)

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3. What is Wisdom? Is Life About Self-Realization?

[12:32–17:00]

• Pete recalls Eckhart Tolle’s ideas on collective insanity and asks, “Does wisdom add or subtract?”
• Rabbi Finley articulates his nuanced view on self-actualization and the importance of using precise language to avoid spiritual fuzziness:

  “Language mediates between the conscious and the unconscious... The more precise we can use language, the wiser we become.” (Rabbi Finley, 15:45)

• On realizing one’s potential:

  “Not all potentials are worth realizing. We all have the potential to be very stupid.” (Rabbi Finley, 14:56)

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4. Levels and Meaning of Life: Duty, Happiness, and 360° Awareness

[20:08–25:45]

• Rabbi Finley outlines four levels for finding meaning:
  1. Duty: Do your spiritual/moral duty (to self, to others, to maintain well-being).
  2. Happiness: Seek authentic joy and resilience.
  3. Awareness: Maintain constant “360°” awareness, a concept he draws from martial arts and spirituality:

     “In martial arts, we call it 360 awareness. I should cultivate a kind of moral and spiritual 360 awareness.” (Rabbi Finley, 21:48–23:41)

• The importance of resilience when facing despair:

  “I think you have a primary duty to be resilient when your option is despair.” (Rabbi Finley, 21:36)

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5. Martial Arts, Spiritual Practice, and Discipline

[25:45–33:25]

• Finley connects the physical discipline of martial arts with spiritual discipline:
  • Martial arts cultivate 360 awareness both physically and morally/spiritually.
  • “There’s always something in you that does not want to be disciplined, which is why we call it discipline.” (Rabbi Finley, 31:41)
• Discussion on Steven Pressfield’s concept of "resistance" and its Jewish analogue, the Yetzer Hara (the destructive inclination):

  “Think of it as a quasi external intelligence that does not share your vision for yourself and will work actively against it.” (Rabbi Finley, 33:32)

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6. Humor, Jewishness, and Comedy as Wisdom

[35:18–38:07 & 46:05–62:09]

• Discussion about Bill Burr’s deceptive craft and the mastery required in comedy.
• Rabbi Finley loves standup, names Bill Burr, Jeselnik, and Chappelle as favorites.
• On the nature of Jewish/Yiddish humor:

  “Yiddish humor was very much surreptitious, deconstructive, cynical, edgy coming from an angle. And that’s one of the functions of humor.” (Rabbi Finley, 46:08)

• Humor, like wisdom, breaks through slogans and exposes unconscious truths:

  “The greatest philosophers are comedians. Because a good comedian relentlessly goes to the heart of the matter, breaks it open, and we laugh because a new truth has been revealed.” (Rabbi Finley, 63:00–64:25)

• Pete and Rabbi Finley discuss how biblical stories like Jonah are best understood as sophisticated, dark satire or burlesque, not sanitized morality tales.

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7. Shadow, Resistance, and Insight (Psychology of Evil)

[39:40–41:04 & 69:53–73:32 & 90:25–104:50]

• Both discuss the Yetzer Hara (and “the shadow”), and how recognizing and naming it are essential to not being run by it:

  “Once you get to a level of consciousness, you realize it is not I. There’s an authentic self trying to live my life, and suddenly you realize there’s an alternative self inside of you that has a contrary vision.” (Rabbi Finley, 39:40)

• Pete shares personal stories illustrating the shadow in daily life (feeling slighted at swings, dealing with embarrassment or status). Finley suggests these moments are opportunities for “insight”—the seed that allows for growth and repairing one’s “brokenness” (a kabbalistic idea).

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8. Parenting: Virtue Signaling, Video Games, and Real Conversations

[71:51–86:52]

• Pete and Rabbi Finley lampoon parental virtue signaling and question blanket anti-tech stances.
• Rabbi Finley urges parents to seek out “the long goal of parenting”:

  “The greatest gift you can give your kid is to know that calendar is king and clock is queen. You got to live inside that.” (Rabbi Finley, 83:00)

• Replace slogans and rules with insight; have honest talks about desires, risks, and meaning (“Explain to me your resistance to brushing your teeth.”)

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9. God, Atheism, and the Power of Story & Metaphor

[112:35–119:05]

• Rabbi Finley on modern atheism: The rise in atheism is a result of the Enlightenment's challenge to dogma.
• What does “belief in God” mean? For Rabbi Finley, more than metaphysics—it's about language, inherited stories, and tools for meaning:

  “I see Judaism as a coherent language, value system, text, metaphors, ways of talking, so we can conduct the business of deepening and enjoying our lives.” (Rabbi Finley, 112:35)

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10. Mind, Language, and Reality

[115:04–121:22]

• Pete ponders the unreality of abstractions (“United Airlines doesn’t really exist”), leading into a discussion on concepts, phenomenology, and the construction of meaning:

  “When we say United, it’s a linguistic way to organize something…does it have a will? Is it conscious? Did it actually do something?” (Rabbi Finley, 117:15)

• Finley introduces “Meinung’s Jungle”—the place in philosophy where concepts that don’t exist nevertheless occupy our minds.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wisdom & Language:

  “Language mediates between the conscious and the unconscious… The more precisely we use language, the wiser we become.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 15:45)

• On Duty and Happiness:

  “I have a duty to create well-being physically, mentally, morally, spiritually... When I'm not sure what to do, examine myself, examine my environment, and ask myself what my duty is at that moment.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 21:00)

• On the Shadow:

  “The Yetzer Hara…a quasi-external intelligence that does not share your vision for yourself and will work actively against it.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 33:32)

• On Comedy and Truth:

  “A good comedian relentlessly goes to the heart of the matter, breaks it open and we laugh because a new truth has been revealed… that’s why I love standup.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 63:00)

• On Parenting:

  “The greatest gift you can give your kid is to know that calendar is king and clock is queen. You got to live inside that.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 83:00)

• On Self-Honesty:

  “If it’s ever all for God, you are in really big trouble because you’re lying. Because you’re lying. And a pious liar—that's the worst kind.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 103:40)

• On Insight:

  “Insight is a gift for life. Every problem you have with a child is a chance to teach insight.”
  (Rabbi Finley, 86:21)

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Standout Moments (with Timestamps)

• Star of David’s True Origins
  07:55: “Six-pointed star… more or less, the Zionist movement needs a symbol, we need a flag and that was decided upon.” (Rabbi Finley)

• Meaning of Life Framework
  20:08–23:19: Four-level model—duty, happiness/well-being, resilience, “360” awareness.

• Discipline and the Monkey Mind
  30:58–32:33: How meditation and habit “tame the monkey”—“once the monkey’s trained, you just keep the monkey trained.” (Rabbi Finley)

• Jewish Humor and Parenting by Deconstruction
  46:05–49:40: “Our child rearing has been based on jokes and pranks… part of one of the jobs of parenting is to constantly deconstruct reality.” (Rabbi Finley)

• Genesis and Jonah as Dark Satire
  54:55–64:09: Rabbi Finley reframes the Genesis snake as truthful (and God as ambiguous), and explains Jonah as a burlesque of prophecy.

• The Function of Comedians in Society
  63:04: “The greatest philosophers are comedians…”

• Reframing Video Games and TV in Parenting
  75:02–86:52: “Let’s not make the kid bad for loving what they love. Every issue is an opportunity for a meaningful conversation, for teaching insight.”

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Further Learning and Courses

• Parenting and Wisdom Classes:
  Rabbi Finley offers online courses on wisdom and parenting—more info at rabbifinley.com. He recommends approaching parenting as fostering insight and resilience, not control.

  “When they're 20 and lost—really lost—they’ll call you. That's one of the goals of parenting.” (Rabbi Finley, 83:51)

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, witty, and rigorous, full of gentle teasing, rabbinical precision, and stand-up comic angles. Both men embrace uncertainty, joke about their own flaws, and are unafraid to inhabit “the shadow”—the embarrassing, messy, or even dark parts of human nature. There’s a shared commitment to going beneath slogans, asking deeper questions, and tolerating ambiguity, always with an undercurrent of warmth.

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Closing Note

“Mitzvah means duty... It's a duty that produces a good.” (Rabbi Finley, 123:36–124:10)

The episode closes with Pete offering a heartfelt, “Of all the things you could do, you share and you give, and that’s beautiful… I wish that for you. I hope you feel that today.”

Keep it crispy.

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Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it weird. You made it weird. Oh, yeah. You made it weird.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You made it weird.

[B]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This. This is an, an incredible episode. I'm so glad you're here. When Rich Roll had Rabbi Findlay on his podcast, they called the episode the Black Belt Rabbi. And that is, that would be a good name if it wasn't already taken. Because what's going on here? This is one of the most interesting people I've ever talked to. It's fascinating, it's captivating, it's. It's strange, it's surprising. And I'm so glad you're here. It's. It's one of those episodes that I told Val. I was like, you're gonna have to listen to this one. It is really interesting and I'm so glad you guys are here, all of you, to check it out. Thanks for listening for everything, Rabbi Finley, because I have a feeling if you listen to this, you're going to be interested in more. Go to Rabbi Finley dot com. He mentions he teaches some classes that we've been checking out. Incredible. Just everything, everything that he's got going on is@rabbi finley.com. as for me, please watch my. Please watch my Special. It's on netflix.com as my mom calls it and it's called I am not for Everyone. I'm also DC Sold out. Thanks, everybody. That's incredible. I'm looking forward to those shows. We also have the Brea Improv here in California and some other dates. Chicago comes to mind. They're [e-mail]. hope to see you out there. It's a new hour. Not the one that's on Netflix, but the one that will be on after that one. So I hope you guys can make it out. Means a lot. Not a lot to plug up top. We. I just checked out my own hair. It's looking nice. For those of you watching it on the video, it's looking nice. Thanks. Thanks, modern mammals. But our friends at Living Libations are the wonderful sponsor of this podcast. You guys know this. I talk about Living Libations all the time. We did a complete overhaul of our skin care. Teeth, hair, nails, baby care. What is it? Living Libations is basically a high end, meaning super high quality, very, very effective, but natural. Skin, hair, body beauty, teeth, baby products. And I for years was being so careful about what I put in my body, but I wasn't being careful about what I put on my body. And that makes no sense. What you put on your body ends up in your body, in your system. And it's made by faceless corporations that just don't care about you or your health or the toxicity of the stuff that you're putting on your skin or in your mouth or wherever you're putting it. So this is a great way to support not only your body, but also the show. I should have said not only the show, but also your body. Meaning they have big things, they have little things. If you want to show some support, show some love to the show. Go to livinglibations.com weird. You'll get 15% off everything you see there. I love their shaving cream. I love their aftershave. I use their. Actually, the Zen shaving cream as my aftershave, which is awesome. I love their exfoliant. I love their best skin ever moisturizer get gives you, like a radiating glow. But the best part is you read the ingredients and you recognize them as real and natural. But it's powerful, it's effective, and it works better than the random chemical nightmares they sell at 7:11. So do something good for your body. Look good, feel good, support the show. LivingLibations.com weird. All right, everybody. I'm not for everybody on Netflix. PeteHomes.com for tour dates, Rabbi Finley.com for everything related to the man you're about to enjoy. Get into it. You need these hot takes on your beverages. Okay, what's the official beverage of Judaism? Because there's none. There isn't one.

[A]

No.

[B]

They all have one. Christianity's wine.

[A]

That's more of a sacrament.

[B]

I'm calling it the official beverage. You're damn right I can.

[A]

You know, it used to be, give us this day our daily beer. Do you know that?

[B]

No. And it was a psychedelic beer.

[A]

No. So just regular beer. Give us this day of our daily beer.

[B]

Well, let's get the immortality key down.

[A]

You know how they change it?

[B]

Wait, wait. Oh, so it wasn't bread, it was beer. Is this real?

[A]

No, it's a joke. Then the bread company came in with a better offer.

[B]

You are. I underestimated you, and I apologize. I forget who said the. I think it was Ram Dass who talked about the official beverage. He didn't call it the official beverage. But, you know, Hinduism would be milk. Islam, I think, is coffee.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Buddhism would be tea. Christianity's red wine. Judaism.

[A]

Well, I mean, if you look at that.

[B]

I mean, if that's the.

[A]

No, no, go ahead. Listen. It's not Islam. It's The Middle east, where they first began to drink coffee.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So if you were Christian, Jewish or Muslim, you drink. You drink coffee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would say tea is subcontinent India and the. In the.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

Yeah. So Christianity inherits from Judaism sacramental wine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have sacramental wine in Judaism. But I don't think Jews are big wine drinkers, from what I know.

[B]

Right. Yeah. And that one's taken.

[A]

Well, it doesn't really matter. We don't really think that way.

[B]

No, I know. That's very silly.

[A]

You know, they got the cross. That's so simple. You actually can't outdo a cross. Right. Cross is a. I mean, can you imagine a Sar. David everywhere?

[B]

It's very hard to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's got a 70s chest hair connotation.

[A]

Yeah. Simple. Two pieces of wood. It's like.

[B]

Isn't the Star of David like a sacred geometry? There's something kind of.

[A]

No, it's all fab. Made up.

[B]

That's all made up.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, someone made it up. It's not sacred geometry.

[B]

Right. But I mean, are we sure about that?

[A]

Yeah. Okay. In addition to being a rabbi, I have a doctorate in religion social ethics, and I'm a historian and a scholar.

[B]

Okay, so you are sure?

[A]

Usually when I say things, I've looked it up. Not always. And if I'm not sure I like it will say I'm not sure.

[B]

Well, I'll tell you where my resistance to that idea came up is whenever I'm in a temple, whenever I'm in a cathedral, I look around and I see a lot of the shapes that we see. When you can close your eyes and rub your eyes really hard, you don't have to be on a psychedelic. But these images that are associated with visions, stuff like that, which is really a trip. The first time I. Pun intended, first time I took mushrooms and I saw kind of like what I would consider to be sacred geometry or this kind of language of creation. And then I went to a cathedral. I was like, oh, my God. They were. They knew what they were doing. And that's why I was kind of saying, like, even if someone made it up, couldn't they have been dipping into that?

[A]

Well, look, when you look at the. The architecture, churches, it is very well planned out that a church, a cathedral especially, is sacred geometry. It's very overt from the designs from the very beginning. Yeah. Now, the ancient temple in Jerusalem definitely was sacred geometry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The predecessor, the tabernacle in the desert, clearly sacred geometry, but there's no Evidence of a six pointed star being involved in any of it. So the question is, you don't see it in any iconography, you don't see it in any synagogues. Where does the six pointed star make its first appearance as an official Jewish shape? Yeah, that's the question.

[B]

Right. And me saying it could be something someone saw in a vision as sort of moot, because you could see anything.

[A]

We basically know the people who made it up and they didn't talk about a vision.

[B]

Right. Well, now we're getting into something that I think is pretty interesting is what is making it up. Name.

[A]

Yeah, Someone designed it.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, like, you like this sort of stuff. Collective unconscious. Like it was there.

[A]

Well, there is a thing called Magen David, meaning the Shield of David. I don't think we have Kochav David, the Star of David. I don't. I don't recall that occurring anywhere. But clearly the Zionist movement needed a symbol.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there are probably some background somewhere, but it was more or less, the Zionist movement needs a symbol, we need a flag. And that was decided upon. So it might have some roots somewhere in Jewish history. Nothing dominant that anybody else would notice it.

[B]

Right. And where's the sacramental wine in Judaism?

[A]

Shabbat for the Sabbath.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The blessings for the Sabbath.

[B]

That makes sense. I knew that.

[A]

No. Yeah, I feel like I knew. There's only one holiday where we don't have a blessing over the wine.

[B]

Which one?

[A]

I want you to guess.

[B]

Rosh Hashanah.

[A]

No, we have a blessing over the wine.

[B]

Aren't you fasting? You don't want wine.

[A]

That's Yom Kippur.

[B]

Yom Kippur.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Is that what it was?

[A]

Very good.

[B]

That's what I was trying to think of, the fasting one, and I blew it. Yeah, because you don't want to drink wine when you're fasting.

[A]

You're not allowed to.

[B]

You're also not allowed to. Yeah, but that's very.

[A]

So those come together. Not allowed to. Not wanting to, because. Right.

[B]

Which is very Jewish. If I may, what's that meaning? Like, when you look back at some of the Levitical kind of ideas, like don't eat shellfish, for example.

[A]

The laws of kosher.

[B]

Yeah. And then modern science kind of catches up and goes like these things are feeding on the bottom feeders, which is.

[A]

Which is probably the reason. Right. You know, pork for them was probably wild boar. Shellfish were bottom feeders. The problem, wild boar is they eat garbage.

[B]

Eat garbage.

[A]

Yeah. So the laws of Kashrut you can't eat vultures, you can't eat birds that eat carrion. So there really was a disgust at animals that eat excrement. And dead animals, that clearly is a part of the laws of kosher are not only found in Leviticus, but we can call them levitical laws. If you mean laws of purity and ritual as opposed to the moral laws.

[B]

Right, yeah. And that is what I meant.

[A]

Okay. You're very good. Sure. Yeah. I've been teaching this a long time.

[B]

I believe it. I can feel it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had a friend come to see me do stand up recently, and I have a joke about. And it is just a joke. I was like, why do we eat pigs but we don't eat dogs?

[A]

No.

[B]

And I go, I think it's hooves.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

And I was like, hooves are the evil feet.

[A]

Hooves are the evil feet.

[B]

And she said after the show, she Jewish woman, she goes, it's very Levitical.

[A]

I've never had a joke. Because it's the split hoof. For an animal to be kosher, it has to have a split hoof and chew the cud.

[B]

I forgot. I didn't know what you meant.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Which is trying to set up a taxonomy, you know, which. Basically farm animals and animals you can tame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they looked at all the animals that you could tame and would be on your farm and those that you would not tame and be on your farm, and they came down to what they had in common was split hoof and chew the cuddle.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you seen that? I believe it's in Chinese medicine. They're like. If it stands on one foot like a plant, like, eat it all the time. Two feet, chicken. They're like, eat it some of the time. Four feet. Like, they did it by feet. Which I thought was very interesting.

[A]

Where do storks fit in?

[B]

Storks, you can.

[A]

Flamingos.

[B]

Strangely, you can make out with a stork.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you can't eat it.

[A]

So what?

[B]

So just, like, making out?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, my wife bosses me around a lot, and I used to do this flamingo imitation. She told me to knock it off, and I finally had to put my.

[B]

Foot down that time. I knew you were doing a joke.

[A]

That's not bad, right?

[B]

It's very good.

[A]

It's not too bad.

[B]

We're getting. Will you speak a little to comedy?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

It's so funny. Obviously, I work in comedy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I work with a lot of Jewish writers, producers, directors. Obviously, there's a cultural scope that we can't speak to. But you personally, when it comes to helping people, which at the end of the day, being a spiritual teacher is, I think, guiding, helping.

[A]

In my counseling practice. Yes. Counseling practice and in my teaching, a lot of it is about, you know, my niche is wisdom and inner transformation.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And of course, all the regular things rabbis do for counseling, bereavement, et cetera. But that's the main part of my teaching.

[B]

And wouldn't wisdom be helpful?

[A]

Yeah, I think it's the most important thing human being can learn. Any human being on the face of the planet needs wisdom. And one reason people suffer is because they don't have wisdom.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's. I've taken that on as my. The main thing that I teach.

[B]

Well, let's do a wisdom question and I'll ask you.

[A]

No problem. Okay.

[B]

But I was just.

[A]

Are we rolling?

[B]

Oh, we've been rolling. Oh, great, man.

[A]

Outstanding. Okay.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

No, no, no. All good.

[B]

Meaning it to be.

[A]

No, no, I. I'm wonderful. I just want to. I want you to miss all this great jokes that I'm telling you, buddy.

[B]

That's the correct feeling. I don't want it to go to waste.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Here's a wisdom question I was listening to. Obviously, it's such a heavy time right now, and thank you for taking time to be with me while all our hearts are so heavy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I listened. You know Eckhart Tolle? You know Eckhart Tolle. I'm assuming he gave a talk on 9 11, like on the day, and he didn't cancel it. It's this very interesting talk. It's sort of a B side. Have to be a big fan. But he gave a talk and everyone was like, he's going to cancel. It's 9 11. And he. He did it. It's called the Sun Will Also Die. And he talks in it about wisdom. He talks about collective insanity being sort of a reflection of our personal insanity. All this stuff.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I can't possibly summarize it. He does talk about wisdom. And, and this may be why this is my wisdom question is he's sort of like the ego is always saying, we can add something. We can, like, gain practice. And. And it puts enlightenment or conversion or. Or whatever word you'd like in the future. And it becomes another problem. I am not wise. I am not holy, or whatever word. And this is my question for you. It's like, does wisdom take away or does it add?

[A]

Well, it's like mathematics. Does mathematics take away Your ad. Are you doing addition or subtraction?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Okay. The question is, I'll tell you what.

[B]

The wisdom does some adds.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I guess what I'm saying is the ultimate. Here's another way to maybe frame that question is in Judaism is the goal to self realize.

[A]

Judaism does not contain that language. But remember, self realization is a relatively modern term. If we mean by that self awareness, meaning being aware of how your inner life functions, minimally the consequences of your behavior, the notion that many of the things we do don't feel like choices, but they are. I mean, there's a whole list of things to be self aware. So self realization has to do with living out my potential. In humanistic psychology, okay. Human realization is part of the self, is the human potential movement.

[B]

That's interesting. That is not how I use it.

[A]

Right. So self realized, which means my potential has become real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you have self actualization, self realization. These are all terms that more or less came out of the German humanists and then those who follow them. Okay. And to know what it means, you have to look at who's saying it and in what context. So if a person says, I want to fulfill my potential, I said, well, which potentials are we talking about? Because not all of them. Right. And we all have the potential to be very stupid. Right? Yeah. So. So whenever a person says self realization or self actualization, my tendency is always to come up with very precise language because language mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and words are there to help us understand ourselves in reality. So the more precise we can use language, the wiser we become.

[B]

Interesting. What language would you use for how I mean self realized?

[A]

I don't know. I have to. What you mean by it, what your goal is, what you're. I mean, how you're using it and why you're using it and what you hope to get out of it.

[B]

I mean it in the term of realizing that you are not the content of your life situation, you're the presence witnessing it. It's funny, the.

[A]

I'm not sure what that means really.

[B]

The I am the awareness that you are. When you say I, what do you mean?

[A]

It depends on where I am and what I'm doing. If right now I am here talking to you, being present to you.

[B]

But when you have a thought or a feeling, what is it? That's. That's seeing that.

[A]

Okay, so the. The awareness of self, it takes a little bit of effort to go to a state of consciousness where you're aware of the self. Yeah, and it's speaking, feeling, thinking. I call that the. The observer mind. So when I think about human consciousness, we have an observer mind. We have an objective mind, which means I can evaluate if the way I'm observing actually cords with reality. We have a rational mind, whether the way I'm dealing with the world is rooted in facts as well as we can determine facts and good theories. We have a truth mind that aimed at the deep truth of the matter. You go beyond that. We have the love mind, the beauty mind, the justice mind, the God mind. So when I think about higher consciousness, I think about 10 levels of higher consciousness. It's just descriptive. It's just my work and work with other people says, well, there's something beyond that divine consciousness. Can you obliterate the sense of self? Sure. It's called meditation. So I'm always interested in is a person asking me for my knowledge base, Have I figured enough things out? Or are they asking for a guide for human experience? So I don't mind asking knowledge questions, but I get tired of them after a while. Okay, I would rather have a question that someone's going to do something with. I don't mind teaching knowledge, sure. But ultimately, if I'm teaching a class on consciousness and a person says, oh, well, what about this and what about that? I'll say, okay, so let's do five minutes of, you know, general religious, spiritual theory on things and my take on it. And now let's get down to my class, which is human transformation.

[B]

To what end, though? I think there's, you know, it's interesting coming from the Jewish tradition, I thought you might appreciate. I do a lot of death work in my dreams. And last night I had a dream where I was talking to a very angry man and I was trying to calm him down, and I was like, I feel like, of course he's me. And I'm like, I feel like your anger is coming from this despondency, this feeling that, like, there's this inevitable final note, we die. So while I'm all about optimizing the human experience, this is the same thing I would ask Dr. Huberman or any of these social scientists, Tony Robbins, like, yeah, let's find communication strategies and let's look at the sun and let's do cold exposure and let's eat protein or whatever it is. But I think there's something underneath that. The reason why I'm going, and I started right by going to the observer mind and self realization is I'm like, to what end are we Optimizing and realizing potential and all that. Because the day you die is just going to be today. It will always be today, it'll always be now. And your life will always have just been the snap of a finger. So I understand that there's reducing suffering with. And I'm about that. Yeah, we can have that conversation. I'm just curious about the underlying why of, of that.

[A]

See, I, I don't like to talk in generalities because I don't speak for all humanity. So whenever anybody says Judaism says Americans believe. We haven't polled everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you were to ask me what's the point of something, I can give you my point of view rooted in, let's say, my understanding of Jewish and religious sources. And I'm going to have try to come up with a something of a synthetic view that doesn't leave most of it out. Is that, is that okay?

[B]

Yeah, I'm just talking to you.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, got it. So. But I'm not speaking for anything but me and what I've studied.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So what you say, what does Judaism teach? I'll try to do that for you. Say, what do I personally believe in my personal.

[B]

We can all put that aside and say, let's just talk to you more.

[A]

Okay, so give me your precise question.

[B]

To me, what is the meaning of life?

[A]

Okay, well, the meaning of life comes down to number one, do your duty as you understand it at that moment.

[B]

Doing your duty, doing your duty.

[A]

That's level one.

[B]

So what's interesting about that, what I hear when you say that is that the love of God is determined by whether or not I do or don't do my duty.

[A]

Yeah, but I didn't say that. All I said is if you ask me what the meaning of life is, I see I have four levels. Number one is we have spiritual and moral duties.

[B]

Okay, tell me that.

[A]

Like a spiritual duty.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

To create well being within. Okay. A moral duty to create well being as much as possible with other people. Okay. Okay. So I have to. I have a duty to create well being physically, mentally, morally, spiritually. So I have a list of duties to myself and to other people. Don't cause other people harm, benefit them when possible, respect the person and property of other people. I think I have a duty toward insight to myself, insight to you, insight to what's happening in this room. So I have a whole list of duties that at any given moment, when I'm not sure what to do, examine myself, examine my environment and ask myself what my duty is. At that moment. That's one thing. That's one part of the meaning of life is understanding what your duty is and doing it as well as you can.

[B]

Yeah, very cool.

[A]

Okay, the next one is find happiness. Well, being. We should enjoy life. We should enjoy our own lives, lives with other people. We should create as much joy and happiness as we can in general. So I think we have a duty to maximize authentic happiness. I think we have a duty to be resilient because life can sometimes be overwhelming and difficult and grievous and bad and people get depressed, people get overwhelmed, they get kind of. They life just empties out. And I've met people like that and they say to me, well, why should I be happy? And look what's happening in my life. And you're saying I should do this, and you're saying I should get out of it. And I say, well, I think you have a primary duty to be resilient. When life, when your option is despair. They said, well, prove it. I said, it's a duty. You don't have to agree with me, but for me it's a duty. It's a priori. I can't empirically prove it, but you're ask. People ask me. And then with a consciousness that everything matters and everything makes a difference, sometimes the very smallest things matter, and sometimes the very smallest things make a difference. So always be, you know, kind of aware where you are attuned to where you are adaptive, accountable. But always look for things that, because of the way consciousness is driven by being attuned to one thing or another, that you might miss something crucial. So in martial arts, we call it 360 awareness. So even as I am attuned to something, which is a good thing, I should cultivate a kind of moral and spiritual 360 awareness. So for me, that's how I the meaning of my life, how I create meaning in life. And everything comes after that, which means my life is constructed from that. And then everything comes next.

[B]

That reminds me of the story of. It's one of those monk stories. There's a monk and his teacher and his teacher came up to him while the student was walking in the garden and he hit him with a stick. He was like, what was that? He's just like. Jesus says something similar. He's like, wait for God. Like you wait for a burglar to come into your house. And that is like a vigilance that you just reminded me of.

[A]

Yeah. So in, in Jewish spiritual psychology, it's something called zihiroth which means ongoing awareness. So. Yeah. So as I'm sitting talking to you. Okay. I also have a sense of every now and then, take a breath and have 360 awareness where I am, what's going on.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

What's the quickest way out of here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What can I kill somebody with? Huh? I mean, well, you got some nice things right over here in front of me. I could just hit somebody with these tripods. Yeah. It's a place to start.

[B]

Those are hollow boned.

[A]

I don't know, you can poke somebody with it.

[B]

I believe you could. Yeah. No, it's funny, Dane Cook has a funny bit about that where he's like, I believe it was after 9, 11. I think that's important context. He's like, we're all scared on airplanes. And when I'm on an airplane now, I'm like, something goes down, I'll break the CD in half and I'll have two knives. And I was like, that's pretty good creative thinking.

[A]

Yeah, it's. You know, when, when you work in martial arts a long time and you realize that in any second, your life or the life of another innocent, a loved one could be in danger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And ideally, don't be surprised into inaction more than a second.

[B]

Surprised into inaction. So freeze, basically.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So you train yourself to respond. Okay. So that's what a lot of martial arts is. Stimulus provides immediate response.

[B]

Wow. To get that sort of pause away.

[A]

Not only God might be knocking, Right. The devil might be knocking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anybody could be knocking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's when I talk about being, you know, having awareness. Sometimes we go into fugue states. We daydream, you know, that's part of human consciousness and that's how we enjoy our lives and work things out. But there's a part of a person that should be relatively aware going on around them in addition to whatever else is going on. So, yeah, I think, you know, part of martial arts is being, you know, 360 awareness, including if I had, if I had to defend, if, if I had a role in defending this room at this moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would I do?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I have to be. I walk into a room, that's one thing I think about. I get out of my car, I think about it.

[B]

Have you been attacked?

[A]

When I was young, yeah. I grew up in Compton, you may know that.

[B]

Oh, you did? Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

I have a whole history of that.

[B]

So is that what got you interested in martial arts?

[A]

Just about positive.

[B]

Just about Positive?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, not everybody's martial arts.

[B]

Oh, just about positive.

[A]

I'm nearly positive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I don't want to cling to complete self understanding. Nobody understands himself completely. Right.

[B]

I feel like you're on the stand or something. I'm like, you can't hold me to that.

[A]

I can't stand because people then raise their hand. You see, I'm a lifelong teacher and I say something and people raise their hand and do, you know the 15 chambers of the unconscious? I say, fine. I'm reasonably sure. That's what I do.

[B]

You can't say this, but I can say this sounds like some of your students are assholes.

[A]

Well, they're not my students. They're assholes. They attend my classes, which is a far different thing, being my student.

[B]

And who's coming to these classes? Not students.

[A]

When I would just teach a class, anybody could sign up for my class.

[B]

Yeah, I see.

[A]

And then I have what I call my students. Students which are people who are studying with me one way or another and staying in the program.

[B]

I understand. And some of them are.

[A]

Some of them none of mine. No, they can't be my student of mine. They can attend my class. Yeah. The.

[B]

The people who had. Some of the people who attend your class.

[A]

Yeah. Are not, are not nice people.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Anybody.

[B]

Sustained.

[A]

So anybody I take on as a student is by definition at least respectful. Other people. They're not all nice people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Look, I'm not a nice person, but I'm respectful of people.

[B]

Right. I'm gonna just real quick get my next question to you notarized.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Katie, would you. Well, how does martial arts and your. How does it, how does it benefit your life? I have a feeling there's a rich appreciation of it. You're a black belt.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And I'm wondering, other than self defense, has it just kind of filled your life with a direction?

[A]

Like it feels like a. I mean the direction of. I love doing it. I love training, I love the club, I love the guys. For me, it's somebody else doing dance or doing music. It's my dance music camaraderie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I love every part of it.

[B]

But that 360 awareness, doesn't that not only protect you but also imbue you with an appreciation for the present moment?

[A]

Well, I would say yes, except I also have that from my spiritual studies. So there are many people who cultivate a spiritual 360 awareness in our martial artist. And many martial artists have 360 self defense awareness, but they don't have a 360 spiritual awareness.

[B]

But they inform each other.

[A]

Yeah. In my case, they would certainly inform each other.

[B]

Yeah. And when you do a contemplative walk, or whatever you call it, just a thought, a mindful walk, do you feel that, hey, since I've been doing. I know you've been doing it a long time, but that your martial arts training is sort of informing them?

[A]

Well, that's an interesting question. If I'm going to be involved in anything spiritual and spiritual, I would probably. I'd rather be sitting because. Because I live in a neighborhood with a lot of automobiles and pedestrians and dogs and I've actually almost walked into people, so. And they've always walked into me, so.

[B]

Because you're kind of in a state.

[A]

Exactly. So I prefer to be. I would be. I would focus when I walk or run. I'd rather be in an awareness that I'm on the street. There are cars, there are people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There are dogs. I would rather be aware of my surroundings now. I'm also aware of the sunrise and the flowers and the beauty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But not to the point that I'll run into somebody else, knock them down.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's just common sense. Right.

[B]

Of course. Have you had transcendent experiences? I'm assuming.

[A]

I would say many. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. What is. What's one that comes to mind that kind of got you hooked?

[A]

Well, the. I mean, the most frequent is when I do a meditative practice. The dominant meditative contemplative practice I have is what in Judaism is called the practice of holy words. So you meditate on a word that has a holy resonance and you hold it in consciousness and you get everything out except the holy word. It's as if the holy word has its own gravity and it roots itself into the unconscious ego self and drills down into the realm of the soul. And there's a dialogue that goes on between the soul and consciousness through the. Through the medium of the holy word. And sometimes it'll be a holy phrase. I love studying poetry, for example. So I would call those intentionally created experiences where I transcend day to day consciousness, if that's what your question is.

[B]

It reminds me of the monkey mind idea that it's like you have a monkey in your brain and then you give them a pile of buttons and you say, move these buttons from this side to this side side. And the button might be the word.

[A]

Yeah, that is a. Not exactly that. There is a technique to give consciousness a hook like a. Behind the door to put the jacket on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While you're moving into the state for people who can't control the. The monkey mind. So you give it something to think about. Well, this is more than that. And this is assumed you've actually been able to tame the monkey for a while now. So you don't have. You don't have the problem with the monkey mind. As soon as you decide not to. As soon as I say I'm going to do my holy word practice, the monkey just gets quiet and just stands in the corner.

[B]

Because you've done it enough.

[A]

Because I've been doing it for my most of my adult life. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I guess we could say that pathway has been grooved.

[A]

Exactly. You got to train the monkey. Once the monkey's trained, you just keep the monkey trained.

[B]

Yeah, I love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I were your monkey, I'd be terrified.

[A]

Yeah. No, I. My monkey's scared of me. I will say, let me ask your.

[B]

Icy Ed Harris face.

[A]

Yeah, he's terrified. Yeah, I just. I just asked. He goes, yeah, I'm not. I'm not messing with you, man. I'm just like, I'm trying to stay out of your way. I said, okay, just stay right there.

[B]

But that's the thing I'm picking up is you seem very disciplined and like. And proactive.

[A]

Definitely proactive. As disciplined as I can be. And remember, there's always something in you that does not want to be disciplined, which is why we call it discipline.

[B]

Right, right, right. Yeah. I remember, I watched. I think it was Paul Rudd talked about how he got his Ant man body. And he said his trainer was just like, you'll never want to do it. And the whole secret is just do it anyway.

[A]

That is discipline. Do what you don't want to do.

[B]

And I know even as you say it, I'm like, it's so obvious. But I. My monkey, it might be just more persuade. Maybe I'm just. I don't know. I need to build that muscle even more.

[A]

Yeah. There are ways to deal with it because in Judaism it's called the yetzer Hara. Yetzer means shape or form. It's come to mean urge. But that's not what it means. It means a shape or form. The word ra means evil or destructive. So it's as if the unconscious ego self has a destructive shape. There's part of the puzzle is destructive it wants to undo.

[B]

Well, we both love Steven Prattzfield.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The resistance.

[A]

That's how he. I met. Because I was calling it Yetzuhara. I read his book and I was giving A talk on this and some. And I mentioned his book and someone told him. So he started taking my class.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And so then I read his book and we became friends. We're still friends. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

He's wonderful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he also. See, there's a benefit. I think Eckhart Tolle sometimes asks children, my daughter had a tantrum yesterday at the zoo. And one of the things Eckhart Tolle says is like, after they're calm, you can go, does it have a shape like that feeling? Can you paint it? Can you talk about it? And there is something about depersonalizing and attaching. And when I read Stephen's book, which I've read many times, but it was like, I find a lot of value in going there. It is resistance or the. Say it again. The yetzer yetser hara hara.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the yetzer hara or the resistance or the pain body or whatever it is. This.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Think of it as a quasi external intelligence that does not share your vision for yourself and will work actively against it.

[B]

Wow. Hardcore.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It's always at work and it doesn't want you to be fulfilled.

[B]

And Steven Pressfield would say that like, this leads to pain. In circumstantial pain, it can lead to disease. It's just like a stuck block.

[A]

It can. His book is more about procrastination and avoidance of your work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

However, if you don't fight with it and it's not morbid, which means it won't just have you sit on the couch and eat fast food every day. A person can get through their whole life not, you know, just go to work, get the job done. If it, if, if it comes natural to them. Be an okay parent. As long as they're not verbally or physically abusive. Be an okay life partner and just get through this thing and die. Because they're not working on anything right now. The minute you begin to work on something and then you hit something, that's not easy. Okay, so that's the part. Some things come natural to people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you actually have to. Have to bring it up to a level of not just talent, but skill. So then you run into resistance. And this is what, by the way, is what we see in jiu jitsu. There are. People come in, there are natural athletes. They're fast, they're strong, they're just good with their hands, with their body, their mobility. So they move up pretty quick. They get to the blue belt level, which means you've mastered the basics and then Getting from blue to purple is where most people drop, really. Because no one gets to purple belt intuitively. You just have to train and you have to get rid of some really bad habits.

[B]

It's the just do it part.

[A]

It's the do it and train hard.

[B]

This is very similar to comedy, believe it or not. I'm not an athlete, but there's a. I'll put this to you and see what this makes you think of. Sometimes people say to me, they go, you know, I did stand up eight years ago, and I've really been wanting to get back into it. And I'm always like, just don't.

[A]

It's like it didn't get you.

[B]

It didn't grab you, and that's okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But, like, I think you're conflating, like, stand up with success or fame or money. And I'm like, that's actually not what it is.

[A]

It's a profound skill. I love stand up.

[B]

Oh, you do?

[A]

Oh, I love stand up.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

You're good. Oh, I appreciate it very much.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[A]

But I. I have my. My favorites and I watch their shows. My few favorites. I probably watch their shows at least 20 times.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And I'm watching everything they do.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Who's a fave right now? Bill Burr.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love Bill Burr.

[B]

He's one of the greats.

[A]

Yeah. I love Jeselnik y. Chappelle is the. Is the, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the emperor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, and then I'll. I'll watch a few others. But when I really want to look at the. I think the most deceptive of all of them is Bill Burr.

[B]

Yeah. What do you mean?

[A]

Because he makes it look like he's just free associating, out of control, you know, emotionally coming apart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is so well done. You don't know. You. You're watching a genius play Mozart on his violin.

[B]

No, he's a master.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he. I was very lucky. He was one of the first people I opened for when I was in my first five years of stand up. And then we stayed in touch and he just produced my special that's coming on Netflix. Yeah. So he's in. Been a huge part of my life.

[A]

And I actually watched his biggest fan is sitting across.

[B]

I love that. Well, you'll appreciate. I can't tell you what you'll appreciate. See, you're rubbing off on me. But I think you'll appreciate that he wasn't always Bill Burr. There was a time when he was just a Great club comic. And when he started headlining, people were kind of like, really? A little bit. And he. He went from blue to purple because of a compulsion and because of whatever. The anti. Yetzera.

[A]

Yeah. So we would call that discipline.

[B]

Discipline.

[A]

Yeah. So the Yetzera is always trying to have us not fulfill our potential.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's clever, it's strong, but it's not wise. So the way to defeat the Yetzer Hara.

[B]

Well, what you just said was incredible. It's clever, it's strong, and it's. But it's not wise.

[A]

It's clever and strong, but it's not wise.

[B]

I just needed you to say it.

[A]

Again because I put a lot of work into coming up with that.

[B]

That was great.

[A]

Because I would meet people at the. The most clever and strong Yetzuhara. Because it has slogans, it has speeches that are very convincing. Yeah, well, don't I get to say what I think? Yeah, no, you get to say what doesn't make things worse. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Well, I have a right to speak. Politically. You have a right to speak, but not with your spouse. You don't have right to speak. In fact, you have a duty to shut up. So this is because people have all these, like, memes running in their heads that just license the most atrocious and silly behavior.

[B]

Those examples were the Yetzera interpersonally, like rubbing up on someone else or.

[A]

I'm tired today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's. That's for you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And don't. Don't. I. You know, it's so funny, the voice of, Like, I was just talking about. I don't drink anymore. And I. But I sometimes go to bed without brushing my teeth, and I go.

[A]

And it's the same thing, pretty much.

[B]

It's liberty.

[A]

It's close.

[B]

People laugh. You know, it's a silly idea, but I go, I'm telling you, it's. No one tells me what to do.

[A]

It's from the Yetzer Har. For sure.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

Yeah. So brushing your teeth is the Yechara saying, I just need something symbolic that I don't have to follow the rules. That's it. If that's what you need once a month for you to feel strong, take it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A concession.

[A]

I'll give you that. He goes, okay, that's all I need. I said, fine. Now shut up for a month. So I get all my life, however, right. If it says I need a drink now, now we're at war.

[B]

Well, my answer. I used to say, you Work at night, get drunk, sober up, then do your show.

[A]

He was running your life.

[B]

He was.

[A]

He was running your life.

[B]

And I was overweight and I was all these different things. And it's just. It's. I didn't know this is the conversation I needed to have. But it's like, it's so nice to. Like, we were saying label it, and you said a partially external.

[A]

Quasi external.

[B]

Quasi external.

[A]

Because it doesn't. Once you get to a level conscious, you realize it is not I. Right. There's an authentic self trying to live my life. And sudden you realize that there's an alternative self inside of you that has a contrary vision to what your life should be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it says deceptive. I mean, it's mendacious. It's deceptive. It runs on slogans. It can be very convincing. It's strong. Until you wise up and you say, oh, you're there. You're always awake.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. And whatever I do in my life, I got to deal with you most of all.

[B]

Okay. So that's so funny that that energy gets writ large in society when you're talking about slogans. Unwise.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

When you start realizing that food companies or beverage or alcohol company. They don't care about you.

[A]

Or political parties.

[B]

Or political parties.

[A]

Everybody runs on slogans because they don't want you to think. Because if we thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We wouldn't really. I don't think we belong to a political party. If we thought.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

You would just say, of all of them, this represents my interest the best. But just be aware they are also doing things that are really wrong.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

And then. And say. And vote your conscience. But don't ever assume that for any party to get elected, they got to come up with slogans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That the slogans name the complexity of the problem. Because life is complex.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would say everything runs on slogans. From the Yetzer Ra to politics to.

[B]

Well, parents.

[A]

Parents sometimes. Which is why I'm against slogans. I teach a lot of parent courses. I'm in the middle of one right now that people say is life changing. People told me their parenting has changed 180 degrees from my course because one thing I have parents do is not think in slogans.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly so. Right on. So where I was thinking. Meaning. I feel like our presidents are often our parents. It's the ritualistic reenactment of a trauma that's familiar to us. So you're looking at a face shape. You're looking at, like a voice all these things. It's like casting a movie. You're casting somebody and you don't realize it looks like the first girl you fell in love with and it had nothing to do with their talent. And then you're fucked up because they stink. That hasn't happened to me. I'm just saying that could happen. Same thing with a raising my daughter. So complicated. And we stay away from slogans. In fact, we just learned don't say maybe. Neurologically, maybe is a very destructive word. When my daughter says, can we get ice cream? And you say, maybe. I feel like you'll appreciate this. I just go, no, Or.

[A]

Or yes, but yes, but yes, but not today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think, kids, you should teach a course on that. Well, I do say no, because we get ice cream on Friday.

[A]

Yeah, There you go. So, yes, but not until Friday. They like to hear yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's really good for their brains. Which means I'm not stopping you in your agency to fulfill your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we're in charge of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I really want ice cream. Yes, but not till Friday. As opposed to no.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not till Friday.

[B]

Powerful. Right. So simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you think of it as your brain doctor Huberman was talking about when you say, maybe it's received exactly the same as a yes. And then this tripped me out, that the brain releases and starts a. I guess it would be a dopamine response.

[A]

Yeah. It's very deceptive. So when I'm thinking maybe, I say, let me think about it.

[B]

Let me think about it.

[A]

I say, I'm not sure. Let me think about it.

[B]

Yeah, that's nice.

[A]

And I think that really puts them in exactly where I want them to be.

[B]

Yeah. So people say, you're in my liminal space.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I'm defining. And they say, well, think about it now. I said, no, I'm gonna think about it later. Well, why not now? Because I'm gonna think about it later.

[B]

I love this. I'm just trying to find the right. First of all, Leela's an only child. And so I sort of like messing with her. Meaning I'll eat her last French fry and just be like. Like we were playing a game last night. You couldn't meet at more tender. That's a weird compliment to give myself. I'm just so patient and loving, gracious and generous with my dog.

[A]

I'm sure you're fabulous, dad.

[B]

Thank you very much. And I had a little spice every once in a while playing a game. And I. And I got it before she did. And she. And she was like, hey. And, you know, when she was a little younger, maybe I would have. But now she's five, and I'll be like, you were too slow.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

That's the game.

[A]

It's fun.

[B]

It's fun.

[A]

Yeah, Exactly.

[B]

What's fun is Dad's a rascal, and.

[A]

You have to be. Exactly. Yeah, so that's. Exactly. Our child rearing has been based on jokes and pranks.

[B]

Wait, ours?

[A]

My wife and I. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, tell me.

[A]

Jokes and pranks. Jokes and pranks.

[B]

Tell me what you mean. It's a joke or a prank that you do to your children.

[A]

They get from the table. I hide their plate.

[B]

This is a synchronicity because our daughter's in a Montessori school, and we had a parent night where they were like, let's, you know, blend the home and the classroom. And the teacher, the older kid teacher, who we haven't really. We don't know him very well yet. His name is Michael. He was like, you know, you're supposed to put your shoes in a certain place, and sometimes they don't. And instead of, like, you know, like that, like the peanuts, he'll just take them and put them on top of the water cooler. Just a joke. And there is. If we're really unpacking it, I think there's a slight appropriate shaming of, like, you didn't know where to put it. You know what I mean? Just. Just enough salt in the recipe to be like, look at your dumb shoes. They're up on the cooler now. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not cruel. Right. But you were too slow.

[A]

It's minor. It's minor. Deconstructing reality.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where if you're not gonna put right place, we'll put it in a really nice. Right place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the kid will be able to say, that's exactly where they should be. Thank you. And then you realize, oh, no, this kid has upped it to a whole.

[B]

Other level that I didn't even think of that. And that is the Machiavellian genius child that's like, thank you.

[A]

That's where I'd like them. Thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shoes on the water. I got a song coming.

[B]

You're helping me realize that Leela is very smart. I think she's high process. I think she's wonder. I think she also a little scattered. And she's like, dad, basically. But we get in, we get jammed up. When I notice that she's unpacking logic, like that water thing. That didn't happen. But that's exact. When kids go, I see what we're doing and I'm okay with it.

[A]

Exactly. That's great. So I think for us, part of one of the jobs of parenting is to constantly deconstruct reality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And by the way, that's a big part of Jewish humor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the meaning Yiddish humor. So Jews from other ethnic groups don't have what the Yiddish humor has, which is, of course, it's a thinning out because of our contact with the Yiddish culture is of course, as generations go by, is not as strong. But Yiddish humor was very much surreptitious, deconstructive, cynical, edgy coming from an angle. And that's one of the functions of humor.

[B]

Well, that's like that dumb joke I texted you, which I got from Ram Dass or I emailed it to you, but I've told a million times. Maybe we can use it as the example. It's the rabbi is going to temple. It's Saturday. The policeman says, where are you going, Rabbi? He says, I don't know. He says, clearly, you're going to temple. And he goes, I don't know. He reminds me of you. He reminds me of you. I didn't realize that right on the nose.

[A]

I'm on a much higher level than that.

[B]

Yes, of course you are. But he's going like, I don't know, the eight quadrants of the. Or whatever it is. And he goes, the policeman gets irate and throws the rabbi in prison. And the rabbi goes, see? So that is a deconstruction of reality. And reality is funny, buddy. The funniest joke is ready after this. I have another podcast. That's hilarious. That's nonsense. And we're all living in this.

[A]

I actually don't know why that's funny.

[B]

I'll tell you. Because I don't know what's gonna happen.

[A]

Oh, I see. Right.

[B]

It's the same thing as the rabbi.

[A]

Or.

[B]

I don't know, it's all sort of funny. Acting like we know what's happening and we understand it and that's what I do with my daughter.

[A]

So. Yeah. So, okay, so let me unpack that for you. If he says, where are you going? So this now the rabbi is more Zen.

[B]

Yeah. Which is why Ram does like that.

[A]

Yeah. The rabbi would answer it with a question.

[B]

Yeah. Why are you asking?

[A]

He says, rabbi, where are you going? Define going. That's what. That's what the Yiddish rabbi would say.

[B]

Define going.

[A]

Yeah. Because now you put the cop into a state of aporia, which is. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See, if I say, what do you mean by going?

[B]

I'd say moving towards that building, the.

[A]

Cop would be stunned for a minute. Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're gonna ask me an obvious question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna put you into a state of unknowing.

[B]

That reminds me of another one, my friend. Do you know Rob Bell? He's a spiritual author. He's wonderful. He tells a joke. I believe it was a rabbi and a centurion. And the centurion says he's walking where he shouldn't be in. The centurion says, who are you and what are you doing here? And the rabbi says, meet me here every day and ask me those two questions.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, we're off to a good start. Like, let's talk. That. That seemed like another.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of Yiddishi joke.

[A]

Yeah, that's that. I would call that an insight joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Yiddish jokes always have a kind of a turn the tables.

[B]

Tell me, what's one?

[A]

Oh, here's a. A very famous.

[B]

Okay. I was just gonna say it doesn't.

[A]

Have to be good old country.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So two Jews are walking down the street, and they. Out in front of the Catholic Church, it says, any Jew who converts a thousand rubles. So they go, okay, so which one of us goes in? Because. Well, you go in and I'll wait out here and kind of watch the door. Yeah. So he goes in, comes back out, and he says, so, did you get the money? He goes, is that all you people think about?

[B]

That is a great joke.

[A]

Is that a great joke?

[B]

That is a great joke.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It took my breath away. Like, I didn't laugh. That is just sort of, like, I enjoy.

[A]

That's a great joke. So that's an inside joke. There's so much you have to know to understand that joke.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then.

[B]

But I also appreciate what it says about identity. And as soon as you belong to another group, you people are bad and you even adopt. Yeah. The us. Them.

[A]

Yeah. So that joke is so sophisticated on so many levels. Yeah, yeah. So. So Yiddish jokes. I mean, you know, the Yiddish curse, may you win the lottery, spend it all in a dentist.

[B]

That's a twist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So Yida's humor always has that little bite at the end.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. All right.

[A]

I certainly know a few hundred Jewish jokes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the authentically Jewish joke always has a little bit of a sharp.

[B]

And this Is why I was. I don't want to say impressed. What's the word? I was appreciative that your favorite comics. I come from the evangelical. God help me. The evangelical Christian tradition.

[A]

I can tell.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's my face. It's the official logo of the.

[A]

No, the God help me part.

[B]

Oh, there you go.

[A]

But we.

[B]

My tradition is like, if you like to Comedian wolf, if you're going to say, especially if you're a pastor, you have to say a clean one. You have to. That's just. That's rule number one. This is a dark statistic, but I remember hearing that, like when there'd be like a youth pastor conference is in the 80s and they'd all be staying in the same hotel that the porn ordering the porn would like skyrocket. And I hear that and I'm like, of course. It's the only time, like the shadow isn't to use Jacob. It's not wrestled with. It's not a down and out dirty debate. Let's. Well, what if God isn't omnipresent? It's not like that. It's more like these are the things you don't question. I'm certainly not horny. I'm definitely not angry. What are you fucking nuts? I'm not angry. And I don't like hearing people talking about their ding dongs or whatever it is. And something I always admired and I'd love to hear your take on this. And now we are talking, I guess, about Judaism, but I admired the earthiness of Judaism, that it was more like, look at Job, look at Jonah, look at the let's talk about it instead of the crest smile. I don't think Jesus is saying let's all pretend everything's hunky dory. But I do think we turned it. Some of us turned it into the religion of polity. My homeboy Richard Rohr always says the word nice is nowhere in the New Testament. Not once doesn't say nice. But we turned it into like, be nice. Like, nice things.

[A]

Yeah. Turn the other cheek, those kinds of things.

[B]

Turn the other. Yeah, just kind of be chill. Be chill. And I looking over the fence, as it were. I'd always look at my Jewish friends and Jewish teachings that I appreciated. I was like, it seemed to be earthy and a little more in touch with, maybe more honest.

[A]

I would say more honest to the human condition. Let's put it that it's not trying to sand down the human condition to be inoffensive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the Hebrew Bible fully confronts the human condition. I will say that as I've taught, for example, Job, the Garden of Eden story, there has been a tendency to theologize these stories and make the character saintly when I think there's actually a lot more darkness and shadows in these stories. So that's part of what I'm doing. And many people find it upsetting. But I'm taking my cue from Talmudic literature and Jewish humor, which is look for the shadow, look for the edge. So I'm just taking it back to the Bible. And then people ask me my interpretation of, for example, the Garden of Eden, which I call the house on Haunted Hill. And people say, well, can you justify that? I say, open the text and we read the text. They say, oh, that means this, that means that. I said, how do you know that's what it means? How about we just say what it says, you know? Yeah, for example.

[B]

Yeah, please tell me.

[A]

The snake says to Eve something like, did God not tell you that when you eat from it, you will die? Or she says, he says, I mean, I have my Bible here. Why can't I eat from. And the snake says something that God said. Okay. And God said, the snake says, no, that's not going to happen. In fact, your eyes will become open, you will become wise. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Isn't it as he is?

[A]

No, we can look it up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The snake clearly was hang out in Genesis chapter two. If that happened. Genesis chapter three. The snake was present at that conversation where God said those things.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I've never. This is very Jewish and I love it. I love this stuff.

[A]

It should be Jewish. Except. Except I don't hear. I've never heard anybody teach it that way. Yeah, but is Jewish in looking for the unseen, right?

[B]

What was implied?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Not even implied. Not implied because people have missed it. I've never seen one biblical commentator say, obviously the snake was there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In Genesis chapter two.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because he couldn't quote God.

[B]

How is he quoting him?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Secondly, the snake is telling the truth because they touched the tree, Ephraim, and they didn't die.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So the snake is telling the truth. God was not telling the truth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's start there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So people say, oh, no. What God meant is when God said, on the day you eat from it, you shall die. It says, oh. He meant they became mortal. I said, but that's not what the Hebrew says. The Hebrew says, on the day you eat from it, you will die.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they look at it they go, yeah, that's what it says. I said, did it happen? No. Did the snake tell them it wouldn't happen?

[B]

See?

[A]

Okay, yes.

[B]

My own rabbi goes, what is the word day? I want to unpack day.

[A]

There you go. Well, it's called reading the peshat. Before you have to go to the metaphoric level, let's just deal with the simple level. That's how language is communicated. So he could say day means a thousand years. But then what is God communicating? See, what they want to say is, you will become mortal. But then that takes the whole edge out of the story. I mean, the way you read a story is to read it with the greatest depth and the greatest quality or the greatest humor to say, when you eat from it, you'll become mortal. Like a thousand years. A million years. I'll take it. Right? Yeah. You're gonna give me a million years. I'll be wise for a million years or clueless forever. I'll take wise for a million years.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

But you see, it eviscerates the story. But if the story is, God says, on the day you eat from it, you will die. And the snake says, no, you won't.

[B]

You're absolutely right.

[A]

Now we have a story.

[B]

The laws of a joke. You can't say, he means in a couple hundred years.

[A]

Let's kill the joke.

[B]

That's ruined. You just ruin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're at a dinner, and I go, honey, you just ru. You stepped on my punchline.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God has to say, you're going to die. Yeah.

[A]

For the snake to be funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the story to be funny, the.

[B]

Whole thing to work.

[A]

Yeah. For the whole thing to work.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

So that's how. That's how I read the story.

[B]

Wow. I love that. The reason I went day was God being outside of time. Here I am, we're at the temple, and I'm like, I'm not allowed in. I'm sitting at the step. But if God is outside of time, meaning eternal, meaning timeless, he sees it all happening instantaneously.

[A]

Oh, there's no joke there, man.

[B]

No, I agree. I agree. No, you're absolutely.

[A]

See, this is what everybody does with it. Everybody says, oh, God's time. But there's a joke, and it's a dark joke. And the dark joke is God's ambushing people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What kind of God ambushes people?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The God of Job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you saying that the God of Job is hovering in Genesis? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people are horrified and Jonah, too. Jonah. I would put a little bit differently because I think that's the author of Jonah playing with the audience.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I always think that Jesus says, people ask for a sign, and he says, the only sign I'll give you is the sign of Jonah, which I thought is pretty badass.

[A]

What's the sign of Jonah?

[B]

Meaning you're going to get eaten by a giant fish. Like. Like, if you're looking to me for, like.

[A]

Okay, so you need a flashy show. You need. You need to understand the joke there.

[B]

Yeah, tell me. No, that's why I'm bringing it up.

[A]

Okay, so when. When God says to Jonah, go to Nineveh and prophesy. First of all, I can't even get our own people to do what you want. Why should I go to them? Right.

[B]

Help me understand that Jonah is in, not Nineveh.

[A]

He's in. He's in the land of Israel. Okay.

[B]

And they say, go to Nineveh and go to Nevada.

[A]

Yep. Like, don't go to Jerusalem and don't.

[B]

Go, oh, I see. I'm failing in Israel, but you're telling me to go to another.

[A]

Go to Iraq.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, it's already not working.

[A]

And he says, why should I? Do you think? Why should I do that? So what the prophet normally says at this point is, you know, I am. I'm of unclean lips. I can't do it. I'm not worthy. Jonah goes straight to Jaffa and gets on a boat.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you think that would be rewarded.

[A]

Though, running Jaffa, getting on a boat.

[B]

Being like, God said it, I'm gonna do it.

[A]

No, he's. Nineveh is that way. The boat is that way.

[B]

Oh, the boat's going the other way. I miss. Okay. Yeah, I'm all over again.

[A]

So he says, go to Nineveh. Go to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Israel. To Baghdad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he jumps on a boat together. Greece.

[B]

I see. I understand the joke.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm tracking the joke.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So a storm breaks out, and the sailors are. God is angry with us. And it says the sailors are pious and. And. And are God fearing. But who's down in the hold? The defiant prophet who's causing the. The storm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they're trying to figure out which one of us is causing the storm. They finally find out it's the. It's the Hebrew prophet who's hiding down, like, under the bags of rice, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They pull him out, they throw him overboard. So the storm stops. Now he quotes a metaphor from Psalms that says, oh, I am drowning in the depths of the sea. Which is always a metaphor for the spiritually drowning person, except he's really drowning.

[B]

Right, okay, so it itself is probably a metaphor, but. Yes.

[A]

No, it's a joke.

[B]

It's a joke.

[A]

Okay, so if I take the metaphor of I'm drowning in my sorrows, but I'm at the bottom of the ocean.

[B]

But it's actually happening.

[A]

But it's actually happening, it's a joke. So he's reifying the metaphor, which is funny.

[B]

Right, I see. Okay, yes.

[A]

Then a whale comes and swallows them. And we realize, okay, now we've gone to the ridiculous.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so now he's writing his. His ode inside of. Of. Of a big fish.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. So now it's gone to really. To the ridiculous. And then God says, you got to go where I tell you to go. Spits him out. Okay? So he goes, okay, fine. So he goes all the way to Nineveh and he says, Four arba', im, yom, nineveh ne' er 40 days, nineveh overthrown. Not Isaiah, chapter after chapter after, not Jeremiah, these long winded, fulminating prophets. Four words. All of Nineveh repents. Everybody puts on sackcloth and ashes, even the cows and even the chickens. Whoa.

[B]

So what is that?

[A]

You understand? It's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, they're making fun of penitents. They dress up their cows in sackcloth and ashes and the chickens.

[B]

So that's a joke too. You're, you're. You couldn't find a better example for someone who's listening to it through the past. Because you're telling it to me in a new way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I keep going. So he was a success. And you're going, no, it's a joke.

[A]

It's a joke. It's a complete joke.

[B]

It's a farce.

[A]

No prophet says four words.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And nobody repents anyway.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you don't dress up your cows and chickens in sackcloth and asses.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So it's all a joke. From beginning to end. It's a joke.

[B]

It's not. My brain just instantly does this. Jonah suffered. And once you suffer and are baked in that kiln, you can convert people with four words. You can do God's work and quickly. You see how that.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

I kind of westernized it.

[A]

Yeah. So. Yeah. So you become iron man. Many people have this tendency when you say Bible God, they spiritualize it. And they don't allow the Bible to be wicked and funny and superstitious because they spiritualize everything into a kind of a. Kind of a white bread banality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I said, let it be wicked, right. Let it be clever, let it be undermining. Okay. So I think the many parts of the stories of the Bible are profoundly undermining.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now going back disruptive. So now they're getting into where humor happens is in the deepest parts of the unconscious. See, it plumbs you into the unconscious. It unsettles you.

[B]

Like a dream.

[A]

Exactly. And once you get the joke, you become wiser. See, only a wise clued in person can get the joke right.

[B]

Is this. I feel like I'm gonna ask the wrong question. I'm not afraid to ask the wrong question, but I am protecting myself by saying, is this the wrong question? What is the joke here? How do you interpret the joke of Jonah?

[A]

The joke is a joke on prophecy because prophecy is the most solemn, austere, respected institution in ancient Israel. And so someone says, I have a joke for you about prophets. You have a joke about a prophet. Yeah. And he tells the joke and people are screaming, oh my God. You hit every solemn trope of a prophet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. You undid every single one of them in one little story.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I mean, it's a brilliant burlesque.

[B]

Yeah, it is a burlesque. Yeah. Wow. Veils fall off my eyes.

[A]

It's very interesting. So why do we have it? Well, why not have some burlesque in the Bible?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Why not make fun of prophets?

[B]

But isn't it a shame? Look, maybe it's not a shame. It just is what it is that we turn it into, you know, what Jonah has become, what Job has become.

[A]

Yeah. Hagiography. So that's where I find into resistance, because I'm after the truth.

[B]

What was the word you used?

[A]

The resistance that people have. Oh, hey, Yahri. The study of saints.

[B]

I see.

[A]

So it's a joke. He's not a saint, he's a joke.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

He's a prophet who's the butt of a joke. Let's not, let's not make the guy a saint. Just let's. Let me just tell the joke.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So because I'm interested as you in Jungian thought, the nature of the unconscious, the nature of humor in the unconscious, and the idea that the greatest philosophers are comedians. Because a good comedian relentlessly goes to the heart of the matter, breaks it open and we laugh because a. It's funny and because we're uncomfortable and a new truth has been revealed to us and the experience is laughter and oh, Crap. He just said something true that I laughed at. And now by my laughing, I know it's true. And I've just been exposed to everybody in this room that I know what the truth is.

[B]

You just described Bill Burr too.

[A]

There you go. Yeah, right. And Jesel Nick.

[B]

And Jesel Nick, sure.

[A]

And Chappelle.

[B]

I'm just kidding. I love Jesel Nick as well. The reason I was sticking with Burr was I remember. Oh, man. Val, my wife was sidestage with me at Largo and Bill was on stage and Bill was doing a joke about Hillary Clinton and he was like, why does she get to be the president? Because she's the wife of a president. It's like, if somebody. I'm going to butcher, but if somebody comes to fix my sink, right? And then he stops and goes, you know what? My wife's going to take over. I'd be like, get the out of here. That's fine. That's just a joke. What was crazy was Val was laughing her ass off. And it's like being naked, it's like it's an exposed. Like, I. Look, I can't speak for Val. I'm learning from you. But I can say in that moment, I was laughing and I was like, it's interesting. I. At the very least, he exposed an unexamined endorsement that, that you know, you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Like, yeah. He said what men are thinking and women won't permit men to think.

[B]

There, that's. Yeah, there you go.

[A]

And so now she laughed. She goes, I just admitted I know what men are thinking. Because if she said, I don't get it.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She recognized a shadow thing, thought, there you go.

[A]

So that's what jokes do. Yes, they break through the shadow.

[B]

But this is my. I, I feel sorry.

[A]

Yeah, please. No, they break through the shadow and bring us to truth.

[B]

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[A]

See, this is my whole break the shadow. They break the grip of the shadow.

[B]

I can't wait to tell you this. Okay, great.

[A]

I can't wait to hear it.

[B]

Yeah. So at that parenting meeting, Val and I talk a lot about the world. And I guess we could just say evil. How for me to have this. You don't have it. For me to be sitting here, you're not sitting here. Just basic stuff. Like, we all take that for granted. And when you're raising a daughter, a child, you know, you watch their cartoons. There's no conflict or the conflict's very minimal. Their music is very da da, da da. And there's just an incubation period of like, everything's fine.

[A]

Everything's fine. Everything's fine.

[B]

And there's something grotesque about that. It's truly, it's very Easy to skewer that and parody that. It's. I hear a lot of people, cocomelon is like a fever dream because we know it's unnatural. It's like the Matrix where they said, we made the first Matrix a utopia, but people kept rejecting it and dying. It's just a throwaway line in the Matrix. So we know that's not the full truth. And it's. And therefore it's grotesque. And we're talking about ego work, shadow work, I think. And in the meeting, the new. How many drinks do you have in a week? Your doctor says, how many drinks you.

[A]

Have in a week?

[B]

And you lie about that. Or the temptation is. Is how much TV does your child watch? That's the new joke. That's the new question that we're all like, huh? So in this meeting, screen time comes up and this woman. I was gonna say, God loved this woman. Fuck it, let's be wicked.

[A]

God's tired of this woman. Go ahead. God saying, not her again.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, there you go. Let's not sandpaper it. Let's let the joke be the joke. This woman is talking about how she doesn't. Her child was having a meltdown and wanted to watch the screen, but we didn't. And it's sort of a virtue signaling and we didn't do it. And Val and I are sitting there being like, we'd give Leela the iPad for sure. For fucking sure.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And then I was unpacking it and I don't want to miss the joke with too much analysis, but I was like, isn't it funny that this killer be killed Ego thought system have either I'm esteemed or you're not esteemed. Either you're going to build up my identity or you're going to tear it down. I'm like, she's doing it there. The thing that she's protecting her child from the screen which might show her evil is now being alchemized, turned into evil in this room where she's saying. And I'm not saying it's actually evil. I'm just saying it's because it's bad. It's bad, but it's low grade. Evil is going like. And we didn't. And I know some of you would.

[A]

And.

[B]

And therefore I win and you lose and the ego has just slightly moved up a peg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, so we're even taking the things we do to protect our children from the evil and we're using that to further our self image and our and our esteem.

[A]

If we take that down to the Yetzer Hara, please. She's hearing about the kid milk. She wants to tell. She wants a virtue signal. Yeah, right.

[B]

She wants a hit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I can't, I can't fault that. But yes.

[A]

And the Yetzer Hara, the says, okay, listen, the kid's screaming, right? Yeah. And the kid could calm down by watching some like puzzle on the, on the iPad, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can also. Virtual signal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now which is more important, you're virtually signaling or your kid suffering?

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And she goes, virtue. Totally, totally. Let's.

[B]

It's like, do you want one hit of cocaine now or two tomorrow?

[A]

Forget the kid. Your kid's suffering. Ah, the kid's suffering. Who cares about the kid? We gotta go in there and virtue signal, okay. And she's telling the joke and everything's going. The iPad lady, she goes, and I know you would. And we go, yeah, I would. Because we're not evil like you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So you really unpack this? I mean, yeah, I mean, so when people say how. When I'm doing my parenting classes, so I do, I do this disruptive technique. How much, how many hours a day should my kid be on their screen? I said, as much as they want. What? It's okay, so prove me wrong. I put the onus on them. We're not going to sit on all virtue signal that our children ought not do what they want to do as long as they're not hurting anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now we're going to dial that back. Is it safe? Is it healthy? Are there other things they should be doing? What's the price of conflict? What do we have in mind? There's a whole other thing. Yes, sure. But the minute you say there's a natural God given limit on kids enjoying.

[B]

Themselves, you're so right on, by the way. You're doing what the rabbi and the joke could have done. What do you mean by going? Because in the same conversation someone was like, because there are studies that this and that. And I was like, and there are studies that say whiskey is good for you. Like, who's funding the study? What is the fear based paranoia? Like you're telling me a researcher couldn't be fear based and paranoid and taken a best shot at looking at the data. And what I'm saying is we don't know the absolute truth. And you're shining a light comically on that.

[A]

And what I say to people about the kid with the screens, I say, what is your overall goal of parenting? This is the foundation of my parenting class teaches good habits. I said among them, but questionable because we don't yet know what a good habit is. Because if you're going to say it's good, we should have some sense of what the overall good is. Now, let's get back to my question. Do you have an overall good under which all the minor goods fit? So let's discuss the overall good. What are you aiming at?

[B]

That's very interesting. Do you want me to play along?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Because there is, like, this idea. It's so fun because Val and I love. At the end of Leila Goes to Bed and we watch a movie or something. It's fucking great. And yet, so I can even judge myself, I go, aren't these. They're better happies than just that. Happy. No, I know. That's what I'm saying. That's what I feel you walking me towards. But I think I might have a belief that there's a better happy, a richer happy that I want to force, and we're not strict, but that I want to force my daughter to pursue. Like, you should never do that. Val and I shouldn't watch a movie when Leila goes to bed. We should go on a hike and write a song and read Tolstoy, and we should dance. Always. And when I heard that story, I was like, I don't know what the data is, but when I. They. Actually, there is some data. Rob Bell, he had a surfing accident, and he was like, all he wanted to do was watch tv. And somebody explained that to him. Is that his theta brainwave? Like, there's a regenerative. Like, it's not quite asleep, it's not quite awake. But his brain was kind of, like, healing while he was doing that.

[A]

That's exactly what a lot of television does.

[B]

Right. Okay. In defense of television, folks.

[A]

Yeah. No, my wife and I, we. We love good television.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we. It is for us. It's the best. Yeah.

[B]

So isn't it funny because Val and I agree with you and wherever you're.

[A]

Going, I mean, when. When I watched Breaking Bad the fifth time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just felt lucky to be alive when Breaking Bad was out. I mean, when I watched the wire for the fourth time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sopranos for the 10th time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, there's some stuff out there that. That, I mean, has hit to the heart of the human condition.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what it took to get that out, the hours and hours for each scene and the writers and the. And the casting and the directors. I mean, it's a monumental effort to deliver deep meaning over to the viewer. And I'm standing in awe of art.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right, right. This is good stuff.

[A]

So. So with our kids, by the way. So when I saw these banal, kind of turning minds into oatmeal cartoons, I always looked for something that had an edge. So when they started watching Dectors Laboratory. You ever see that? Okay, that's. That's. That's a nice little edgy show.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So we would look for that. And then we introduced them to the Marx Brothers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And they liked it.

[A]

Oh, they couldn't get enough of that. Marx Brothers.

[B]

Okay. I feel like.

[A]

Because the humor is physical. Right. And then it's always making fun of somebody. Some stodgy character. The fourth Marx Brother is. Is typically the butt of the jokes. Then you move forward, and they're always making jokes about language. So somebody walks in, says, groucho, glad to see you back. He goes, this is my front.

[B]

That's my back, buddy.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I don't want to ruin the joke by over philosophizing it, but, like, you're talking about matter, so, you know, like a guy moving a piano up. Up a staircase is fair, and we need it. We're stuck in this, and we're also stuck in language. And language. This is not a pipe. Right. So this isn't. These are just sounds, and it's not quite reality, and we need to laugh at it. It's important. Is that kind of what we're getting?

[A]

The Mark brothers are deconstructing all mores. They deconstruct language, they deconstruct customs. So it's a constant act in breaking reality apart and getting a huge laugh out of it. Now. It's inherently pleasurable. And then you're the. I'm the kind of guy that sits back and say, why was that funny? Let me figure this out. There's all kinds of other agendas they have. It is when you look at the agendas of the Marx Brothers, there's some deep social, political, philosophical things going on in the. I don't doubt it in the Marx Brothers. Anyway, so as far as our kids television, when they would sneak television, we caught him one time and said, what are you watching? And they said, I'm looking. I said, police show. They said, yeah, because they're like 11 and 9. What is. It's called Law and Order. I never watched it. So I said, let me see it. And it's Law and Order. Special Victims Unit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is PG13 parent advisory. And I'm looking at it. I'm looking at. Think to myself, okay, you have to watch this every single day for the rest of your lives.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because they're predators out there.

[B]

Wow. You'll appreciate this. We don't teach stranger danger anymore. And I. I hope you like this. I say to my daughter, because I read it somewhere, which means Instagram. I said, you got to look out for tricky people. And chances are you know the tricky person. So only mommy and daddy can touch your body. You always. And no one can ask you to keep a secret from us. And then Leila goes, yeah, because some people might take me away and put me in a cage.

[A]

Right there you go. And I go, what the?

[B]

Like, she's not watching Special Victims Unit. But she was with it because she's not as sandpapered down. I don't know. I can't even pretend to understand that.

[A]

So we felt respect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How to be present and how to read all the signals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So look, that's. That's a lifetime of parenting, you know, 360 awareness. Be a respectful present, kid. Watch out for the evil people. That's. That's a lifetime of parenting. It's a lifetime for a person. But as far as the video games go, this one parent of class was having a raging argument with this kid. And I said, what's the video game? First of all, because there are some that require dexterity, skill, planning, strategy. With incredible music in the background, by the way. Better than any of the stuff you.

[B]

And art. Video games are art.

[A]

Exactly. So I'm looking for the downside. And the dad says, well, I don't know. He keeps wanting to tell me about it. And I'm going, okay, let me just revive myself. Your son is doing something he loves that has strategy and art.

[B]

Did you see Gran Turismo? It's the movie about the guy who was obsessed with Gran Turismo. And then he became a real race car driver. And it's a similar father being like, I don't understand this game. Like at the end of the movie. You bet he does.

[A]

The last time I got a clue, I watched the one with Cate Blanchett. Tar. Tari. Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. Remember the last scene?

[B]

I haven't finished. Oh my God, I gotta watch it from the beginning with my wife.

[A]

Watch it from the beginning. I'm not gonna spoil it for you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But it is one of the most riveting movies I've ever watched. I was on the edge of my seat, almost feeling fainting every 20 seconds.

[B]

Really? We're gonna watch it tonight?

[A]

Oh, you just got to be ready.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That. It is so sneaky. Wow. That if you're really watching it very carefully.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just pulling you along relentlessly to your demise.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's how I watched it in.

[B]

That's how I felt with Succession, by the way. I go. It was all leading to this. There was one episode in particular, I was like, it was all a long setup for this episode. And we're all freaking out. No one's talking. We're all holding our breath. I was like, these sons of bitches. Three seasons, just going like, yeah, it's a fun show about rich people. And then you're like, it's incredible.

[A]

I haven't been able to watch it. I will.

[B]

You're gonna love it.

[A]

I know. You and everybody I admire, plus you, they're all telling me I gotta watch it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely.

[A]

So anyway, so when someone says video games, I'm thinking to myself, what exactly? Talking about the fact that it's that. That it is kind of two dimensional. Is that. Is that your problem? Like what's. What's your animus toward it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I have to unpack there. Well, it's a waste of time, I said. By what you mean this mindless homework about the Eskimo girl who overcome great challenges to get on the Eskimo squad. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you read the same. Basically the same story every year since second grade about the oppressed kid. And there's nothing subtle. They're clearly pushing some kind of agenda that we should be nice to people who don't look like us. Got that memo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now what is going to make my kid deeper? Not just know to be a good person, which they actually know from the home anyway. And I'm waiting for them to teach something like Lord of the Flies.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Interesting.

[A]

Now that's, you know, some. Some version of that. When I was a kid about fifth grade, I wrote a book called the Forgotten Door by Alexander Key. Okay. A kid from another planet suddenly arrives at a small town in Appalachia. That was interesting to watch. A kid with superpower shows up in Appalachia.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Now a black or Hispanic kid showing from Appalachia, that's one thing. A kid with superpowers, Appalachia. And the way you want to kill that kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The whole town eventually wants to kill the kid. Then you have to figure that out. Wow. Okay. So if. And now if a video. If A video game can deliver over strategy, depth, surprises. Great music. Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, then. Then I. But. And then people say, well, how long? I said, talk to the kid. Just talk to your kid. Say, do you want to pass third grade, fourth grade, eighth grade? Yes. What do you got to do to pass eighth grade? I got to do this. Are you getting that done? Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you getting enough sleep? Because we have to make sure that you are physically, mentally, morally healthy and you need sleep. Do you know about sleep? Yes. So would we agree that you need X amount of sleep to be healthy? So you. For your immune system. Yes. Let's figure all the things you got to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is called setting up a schedule, which is the great. One of the greatest gifts you can give your kid is to know that calendar is king and clock is queen. You got to live inside that.

[B]

That's what we started saying. It's like, why are we doing this? Because this is the time that we do.

[A]

Because this is the time we do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let's schedule your day, and let's put in as much video time as we can. I'm on your side. I want you to enjoy your life.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Now. And people say, well, I haven't been doing that. I said, go to apologize to your kid. Give him this new attitude. Come back to class. They come back to class and they say, my kid was shocked. Grateful. They felt I was on their side for them to enjoy their life. I said, now you're getting the long goal of parenting, which is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which Is when they're 20 and lost. Really lost, they'll call you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's one goal of parenting. Wow.

[B]

Of course. Whoa. Okay. I'm with you, by the way, because I played Call of Duty. I'm assuming it's some game like Call of Duty or Fortnite or something like that where you're shooting people. And the. I don't want this to sound canned, but my roommate and I became closer because of it. And we were. It's of part. Basically, we were playing capture the Flag. And I understand that it's violent, and, you know, there's. There's graphics that are, you know, grotesque maybe, but it was not. That's not how I remember it.

[A]

No. You remember the camaraderie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Safer than football.

[B]

Safer than football.

[A]

So I was on a panel once about violence in video games. And, you know, when you've been around violence. Violence.

[B]

Yeah. It's different.

[A]

Nobody's watching video games in Compton.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To encourage them to beat up white kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And of all the white kids playing video games, how many are actually going out and beating people up? There's no evidence whatsoever. If someone says, well, I want them to have the images, I say, okay, let's have a talk about that. But video games don't lead to violence, and violence doesn't come from video games. Let's just establish that. Because there's been violence long before there were video games.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So let's. Let's just figure that out. Now. What is the attraction. Attraction, especially of boys to danger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's genetic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because if you didn't have boys that could stand up to danger, the tribe would have been annihilated. Right. So you have to have some number of people who will. Who will obey the call of duty, and they need to do it imaginatively. Great.

[B]

Right. And to your Lord of the Flies point and to your football point, this is. Again, let's not sandpaper it down. Let's talk about opposition and let's talk.

[A]

About pain and human depravity and how you face human depravity. And so there's so many deeper questions that, you know that, that in my parenting the Soul class, if. If a parent had problem with Call of Duty, I'd say, you can play as much as you want. That's my. That's my first thing. So we're not having an argument here. You're not bad. We're not going to play. I'm good. You're bad. I need to school you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's no way to set things up with a kid. Tell me about it. I want to understand what you love about it. Okay. And because when the kid says, okay, I can do that, you're developing insight now. Insight is a gift for life. Long after you don't play Call of Duty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You will have been trained for insight. So that's actually the one of the kind of hooks for my class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Insight is a gift for life. Every problem you have with a child is a chance to teach insight, to say, explain to me your resistance to brushing your teeth. You don't have to brush your teeth. First of all, we're not going to fight about that. I want you to go inside and tell me why it's meaningful for you not to brush your teeth.

[B]

Yeah. And we're back to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one tells me what to do.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So you go inside and say, I have an oppositional part of me that needs a day off so I can do all my other stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You say, that's all you need for me to get anything else done? Yeah, yeah, take it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I feel like I know the answer, but let's talk about it, because this is a hoot and a privilege to talk with you about this. But my daughter, first of all, I'm going to say, why do you love Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? But that's been a thing. That's been a daddy daughter thing. And it's a show that I, with my eyes open, was like, there's weapons, there's kicking, there's punching, there's language, like, stupid. I'm trying to think of anything idiot might show up. Idiot actually shows up in a lot of Disney movies, you wouldn't think. So there's, like. There's a little bit of language, and there's bad guys. I'm watching it with, again, it's this precious thing to me. We're sitting there, and we always kind of snuggle when we watch it, and she's not a huge snuggler, so it's like a ritualistic, kind of like, dad show.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And. Yeah. And there's Shredder, and he's covered in knives, and he's a bad guy, and there's a scene where he kicks the butt of every turtle. And they're. You know, it's in a cartoon way, but they're laying down there. She's like, what happened to Raphael? And I'm like, he got electrocuted. If you touch electricity, you get shocked, and you'll. You might die. But that's how we talk to her, by the way. And that's how she talks. I think she was a hunter in a past life. She's like, what's chicken?

[A]

It may have been.

[B]

Exactly. I go, someone killed a chicken. And. And we eat its body. And she goes, I want to kill a chicken. That was. That's how she responded. So I've been, like, in awe of her. So, anyway, going to the Ninja Turtles, Val and I, again, we're new. This is our first kid. We're like, is this okay? And we've started to kind of move away from Ninja Turtles. And Leela's really going, I want to watch Ninja Turtles. If I'm picking up what you're laying down, I should talk to Leela. Like, what do we like about Ninja Turtles? Can you tell me what you like about Ninja Turtles?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And again, I feel like you'll appreciate this, Leland. I do this, and we. And we fight each other, and I flip her and I throw her. She gets hurt, and We've changed the language of when she gets hurt. I go, you got gnarled. I go, you got gnarled. And it's like. It's like a good thing. She's like, I got gnarled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's different from getting hurt.

[A]

All great stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All great stuff.

[B]

Okay. And it seems to me I'm going to go home to Val and be like, we need to talk to Leela about Ninja Turtles and watch Ninja Turtles with her.

[A]

And does it make. Does it make you scared? Yeah.

[B]

Does it make you scared? No.

[A]

And if it does, why do you like feeling scared? Because that's also part of.

[B]

That's what I meant to tell you. We're watching Shredder kick everyone's butt. And after the scene, she goes, I kind of like Shredder. And I was like, of course you like Shredder. The bad guy is so exciting. He's so dangerous. He's cool, you know?

[A]

So that's. I mean, to go to a Jungian level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a. She has a fantasy of her capacity for violence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's one thing was. Is. You know, people have that part of them suppressed. I remember when I was in rabbinical school all these years ago. I taught Holocaust for many years, and I had a rabbinical student, and I said, this is in everybody. She says, it is not in me. That has nothing to do with who I am. I said, I think it's in everybody. She says, no, it is not in me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I said, okay, I'm taking your word for it. I hear years later that she went, moved to another city and quit rabbinical school. Wouldn't be a rabbi anymore. I thought she was a really, really great person. So I got on the phone and I said, why'd you quit rabbinical school? She said, because you were right. I discovered there's a horrible, disgusting side of me, and I am unconscious, and I didn't feel worthy to be a rabbi. What I want to say is, now you're worthy to be a rabbi.

[B]

That's ex. I got chills. That's exactly. So, yeah. Okay. If there's an opening here, I couldn't wait to say this. Our whole thing going back to. I started saying this before I told you. The iPad violence, the micro violence of that. That's not even what I mean. I just mean the ego trip of it. My whole spiritual practice these days is going. And my comedy, it's not around, it's through. I tell this story. I just started telling the story. And you'll I think you'll appreciate this. I want to. I want to name the. The Yetzuhara. Yeah, I want to. I might just say my. Before this conversation, I might have just said my ego.

[A]

Call the Resistance. The Resistance or the Shadow.

[B]

The Shadow.

[A]

Because your. Let's say, your ego comprises all of them.

[B]

I'm with you. And sometimes when the jokes don't work, I go, if you guys aren't laughing, you need to do what's known as shadow work. And, like, that gets a laugh. But so I started getting more. I've been doing stand up for 20 years plus, and now I'm drawn more to things like this. So I'm telling a story. I'm pushing Leela on the swing, and there's this little girl, and I'm playing with all the kids, and I'm going like, my name. What's your name? My name's Mr. Chicken Head. And everyone's laughing and we're having fun. Then this kid just starts calling me Mr. Poo Poo. And part of the joke is that I'm like. I was shocked at how much it hurt my feelings. There was this, like, rush of, like.

[A]

You got disrespected, man.

[B]

Yeah, she was disrespecting me. Yeah, that's gonna make this story even worse. But that is how I felt. And you also have no recourse other than, like, I tried all the strategies. I was like, I am Mr. Poo Poo. Like, owning it. Or that's. That's the one I chose. I was like, sure, I'm Mr. Poo Poo. But then she dug in, and she's just going, poo, Poo, Poo poo. And I was like, ah. So then I was just, like, in my mind, pure shadow, just being like, well, then you, like, I'm trying to get a party going, and you ruined it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is pure shadow. And I know you're going to love it because you've done this work. And this is what I'm trying to do in my. I'm trying to elevate it to art. I want to get art right later. She's walking in front of the swings, and a kid. My kid goes flying into her. You know how kids are always walking too close to the swings?

[A]

I.

[B]

It was too late. Leela was out of my hand. She walked in front of. Gets hit, and I go. There was a part of me that goes, you know, like, just a little.

[A]

Yeah, well, who's the only fault?

[B]

Who's Mr. Poo Poo now? His only fault.

[A]

In what you just told me.

[B]

Yeah. Tell me.

[A]

You should have set that up.

[B]

Set what up?

[A]

For bumping into the cage.

[B]

I should have done it.

[A]

Yeah. It was. God, buddy.

[B]

In my notes, I wrote, and I. Because whether or not the way the story actually happened, and this is artistic liberty, was that Leela had been pushed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the joke, I would say, and I didn't do it on purpose. And then I go, I might have done a little bit on purpose. Like, just a little bit of me was like, I see how this goes.

[A]

When you do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I say, I didn't mean it. I pushed her. She knocked the kid down and said, okay, so now I'm coming clean. I did push.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I did. I did it.

[B]

That's exactly right. You're exactly right. That is the form. Full respect. I go, I didn't do it. I might have done it because. And okay.

[A]

Because the kid deserved it. You don't call adults Mr. Poo Poo. And whoever brought her up, they didn't teach her. So you might have to, in some kind of relatively nonviolent way, teach this kid. There are boundaries, including, don't disrespect adults because you might get killed. If it were a different adult.

[B]

Right. Oh, interesting.

[A]

You went to a different park in a different part of town.

[B]

Yeah. You might. Yeah. Something.

[A]

I really get hurt.

[B]

That's really interesting. I never even thought about that.

[A]

That's what I think about.

[B]

Why you can pull that.

[A]

You can pull that off of west la. Don't pull it off three miles south of here.

[B]

Right. And it was in la, and it wasn't a night. It was over in Griffith Park. So it would have been, like, different in a different area. Absolutely.

[A]

Some other adult would have knocked that kid into next week and not thought about it twice.

[B]

Right. A crazy. Yeah, well, we would.

[A]

And someone else would say, thank you for doing that to my kid.

[B]

Right. Interesting. I do want to say. My own sensitivity wants to say the kid was fine. That happens. Every parent knows that happens 9,000 times a day.

[A]

Yeah, it does. It does. But see, for me, there's a deeper issue that when the kid. When the kid says poo poo head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're. They're saying to them, I'm going to disrespect an adult and there's nothing they can do.

[B]

And they. And they know that. That's what felt so wicked about it. I was like.

[A]

And you see now, now plant that seed. Yeah, plant that seed and see if that seed grows. So I'm going to Tell you something horrible. I'm picking my, my kid up from middle school for whatever. I need to talk to the vice principal. And there's other kids sitting out. And he said, what happened? And the kid had a bad mouth on him. And Betty, like really cussed out a teacher. And he said, his friend says, so what are they going to do? They're going to call my mom. What's your mom? Nothing. Now cuss her out, too. I'll beat her ass. And then I said, okay, so this kid's gonna kill somebody because he's already eighth grade and he's completely under restrained. And when he said that, I've seen some big middle schoolers do exactly that to their dad. I mean, we had a neighborhood, we lived in. The kids had a friend in sixth grade. I saw him in eighth grade running down the street, jumping on top of cars. Like he would go from car, hood jump on the, like the top car and just running down the street, jumping on cars and denting the hoods and the hoods over the engines. And I'm looking at him and I think to myself, look, it might be genetic, it might be sunspots, but it could be the fact that, you know, we knew his mom, lovely person, but single mom, too much on our hands. And I thought, this is a tragedy because he's going to do that to somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's not going to want it to happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's what I say to kids, these kids a little bit. A little bit out of control. I say, listen, you need to know you can do that where you live. You do in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not going to end well. So you might want to learn to stop doing it now. I just, I just apply to their self interest.

[B]

That's really interesting.

[A]

I mean, I appeal to their self interest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this, this little girl, I mean, look, we're in the realm of comedy here. And, and. But I worry for that little girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See, a little girl who feels free to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I worry for her.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting because. Plant the seed. That's something you taught me. Insight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's huge. Planting the seed and kind of taking it out. And buddy, literally just now, I've been like, right. We're not just raising our daughter for our neighborhood. I know that's embarrassing, but I don't mind being embarrassed. Like, here's another example. My daughter punches me and I, you know, again, we're just messing around. And I like that. And then when we go See the grandparents. I have to go. And whenever she hits me or we're playing, I go, you can hit data. Don't hit anybody else. Because it's an understanding. I told you, this is the signal. That means we're fighting. And then she did kick my dad. My dad, who grew up in a different time. And I'm so glad she didn't see it. But he gave her what I would call the death look. Like, don't fuck with me. Like, no. No filtering of it for the child version.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I'm trying to have compassion for my dad. My dad grew up in a tougher neighborhood situation where you couldn't let that stand. And I'm like, it's my daughter. Who cares.

[A]

You.

[B]

You're lucky to be kicked by her. But you're. I'm seeing there's different.

[A]

Yeah. And that's a discussion with your daughter. See, if I. If that were my kid. Who have done that to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would say. I would say, first of all, please forgive my child and please forgive me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We need to talk. First of all, you're not in trouble.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not in trouble. I want to know what went through your head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where of all the things in the world you could have done, you kicked. That's what made sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Or your daughter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. But going back because.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And the kids go. Oh, I don't know. I just felt like it, clearly. But I want you to go deeper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're not in trouble.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not in trouble. I'm not gonna punish you, but you need you to have insight to what you did, because it wasn't right.

[B]

This is grown ups. This is Louis CK scandal. Noted. Had a great bit about shut up and eat your fucking French fries. And like, what a lot of grown ups aren't doing is like, why it wasn't the French fries. Like, you're not mad about what you. I say this all the time because I want to get it out as much as I can. In my marriage, some of the most helpful language that I've discovered is I was just embarrassed and that I don't know if I'm an archetypal man or whatever, but it's usually something threatened my sense of self and well being and my value that no one intended. And then something, maybe, or maybe they did, and then it comes out in this other way. And Val is a genius, a love genius. So she'll be like, what's going on? And when I look in, I Go. I was embarrassed. So my neighbor here, Kate, I always joke about not my neighbor. I guess I'd say my tenant, she rents this house. I always like, notice that I get threatened when she never knows who the guest is. She always asks and I always say, I joke with her. I go, you're not gonna know. I'm gonna say Lewis Black and you're gonna say, who? That's always what happens. So I give her shit, and that's fine. But I was driving down and I use my car time as thinking time. And I was going, like, what is the underlying thought? And I uncovered. If Kate doesn't understand me or Kate is undermining my value, this is like really like going like, go ahead unconscious. Tell me in the voice of a little child, what do you think? She's undermining my value. If she doesn't see me, I'm not safe. All of this stuff comes out and as soon as you look at. At it, you can go, that's ridiculous. And I was a lot kind of gentler coming.

[A]

When you realize if. If you're not recognized, let's say the quality of a guest.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Somebody that, that should know. Which reflects on your stature.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

That's part of our core needs as a human being is to have our stature respected.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In fact, that's one of the greatest causes for anger and violence is. Is to have your stature disrespected.

[B]

Okay, that's exactly right.

[A]

It's a core need. So if she doesn't know who's coming in, I feel my stature disrespected. Therefore, I have completely human reaction of threatened. Because if you don't respect my stature, now we go down to the primate level.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're going to take my mate, you're going to take my food, you're going to invade my territory. Right.

[B]

Okay, I'm telling you. Yes.

[A]

And then you realize and you say, oh, you Yetzer Hara. Yeah, you got it in me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So now let me tell you something. Yetzer Hara, she actually is not on this planet to watch out for my stature.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I'm good.

[B]

And she's not the arbiter of my values.

[A]

Exactly right. He goes insane. He goes, yeah, you're right, he does.

[B]

Yeah, but. And like an insolent child, he just needed the shadow. Just needed me to look at it and acknowledge it.

[A]

That's a great way to put it because that's for me, that's that kabbalistically, the shadow is symptomizing your Brokenness and asking you to look at it so you can repair yourself. Now, that's deeper level.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's deep stuff. No, it is at a basic level, it's your alternative self making a play for power.

[B]

I hear that, right?

[A]

Yes, but at a deeper level.

[B]

Yes. Or the deeper level. The reason I'm a comedian. I think one of the reasons I'm a comedian is because I started feeling like if I'm not seen, I'm not safe sort of thing. And so I go on stage. It's brilliant, actually, as a strategy, as a psychological strategy. Talk and do it in a funny way. So they laugh and, you know, they heard you and you kind of like get that wound kind of patched over.

[A]

Yeah, I. I tell jokes all the time. I populate my sermons, my teachings with humor. And. And I realize one thing. It is when you get a laugh out of somebody, you feel like you're, You're. You've. You're in charge of the room and you've brought pleasure and delight to everybody.

[B]

You've really.

[A]

It's a really. It's a really great feeling. And so I. Then I have to look at myself and I'm saying, is it. Is it really for the sake, or am I just seeking attention? And he goes, yeah, a little bit. Seeking attention.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I say, okay, how much? You know, I had a. I had a spiritual teacher and he sent me out to speak in his. In his stead. And I have my natural ability and very highly trained by him. I went out to a university and gave a talk. I came back, said, how'd it go? I said, horrible. He said, why? I said, because I. I enjoyed it too much, man. I just had there in the palm of my hand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He said, here's the rule. He said, if it's. If it's ever less than 10% for God and 9% for Mordechai, don't do it. At least a tithe.

[B]

Tither better.

[A]

Tither better.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But if it's not 10%, at least 10% for God, then stop talking.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

And then he said, okay, if it's ever all for God, you are in really. You're in really big trouble because you're lying. Because you're lying.

[B]

Every time you tell or joke or like a wisdom thing, I get the stomach flip because I'm like, I didn't see it coming. If it's 100% for God, you're fucked.

[A]

Yeah. You're just lying to yourself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And a pious liar.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, that's the worst kind of liar.

[B]

That is it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, through. When I was a younger man, I would say, no, I want to save these people from a bad night. I want them to feel joy. And now as I'm older, I go like, this is mutually beneficial. It's okay to use my wound. I need to be seen to delight. In fact, I feel like that's pretty good alchemy.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, whenever I have a particularly good night on, or, you know, Friday night or Saturday morning, I say to myself, 70 for Mordechai, 30% for God. I'm still in the game.

[B]

Still in the game.

[A]

And by the way, I. I'll disagree with you slightly here.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

See, I think your talent, I mean, the thought, the cogitation, your acts, your. Your ability to connect to your unconscious because common has to go straight through. You can't cogitate on everything. You got to read the room. There's so many things going on. I mean, it's a talent, you know.

[B]

Not just a wound.

[A]

It's a God given talent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, you may be working with a wound, but more than anything is talent. And as long as you're not advocating violence or some destructive behavior, there's no downside to making people laugh. In fact, people like you. When I watch some of your stuff, you are the kind where a person says, why did I laugh?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're like, they say, okay, I just learned something about myself. Oh, I like that. So I like, I like that kind of. And when I think to myself, I only use comedy jokes, wry comments in my teaching for the service of the point, not just to say, as an aside, here's a joke. Right. I've done that, by the way. Right. Because I can't stop.

[B]

That's the 70%.

[A]

That's like, yeah, I'm down into it.

[B]

But that goes back to the beginning of our conversation. That your happiness, that's a, That's a duty, you know.

[A]

And you know what I said I'm sorry last time I just told joke for joke's sake, says Rabbi Finley. We love it when you're having fun. It was a fun joke. So we're also going to hear jokes if you don't tell them to us.

[B]

And then what is the underlying message of you having fun? Right. Yeah, that's a valuable. That's like saying the underlying value of saying, what do you like about Call of Duty? Is let's teach you insight. But seeing a member of the clergy having fun and being light and being present and just kind of Wanting to.

[A]

That's what they say to me. Thank you for that. Because they say you're having fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're having fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't always have to be on topic. You don't always have to be on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes you can free associate, tell us a joke, come back.

[B]

Yeah. And we're all to going, well, I would attest to that being very true. Because that's what you're doing now.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

I'll throw this at you. People always think I'm a clean comic. And I'm like, I say fuck all the time. But that I think there's something interesting. There is like the being fun and present and light and not ugly. The word I use is ugly, not dirty or clean. But like, are you. Being ugly is communicated in a way that transcends logic. Meaning like I love, I love clean comics. And they just watched me say all these swear words and talk about sex or whatever it is and I'm like, that's exactly where I'm trying to go. You know what I mean?

[A]

Sure. And by the way, I mean, I watch the raunchiest comics. I will never use a vulgar word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will never make fun of any group other than Jews.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And will never let anybody else do it in my presence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now within that there's a lot of funny stuff.

[B]

I was going to say that's a rich culture to be able to. And I've always admired the self deprecating and just the shorthand. Not every Jew, obviously. Not every Jewish person. But yeah. You got a good field.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. When I teach my wisdom classes, I always populate it with anecdotes that are hilarious. Clearly I watched them through the test of anonymity. But man, there's some hilarious things that happen when you counsel people. The cluelessness that people events and they're just, you know, when I was teaching my Hebrew school back in the day, I always tried to teach them wisdom through anecdotes. And I'd have them on the floor laughing about people like their parents. So one way I got them to behave was they say, more anecdotes, more anecdotes, more counseling, more counseling. I said as a reward if you pay attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they would pay it. They would pay attention. So then I could do my half hour of stand up with the seventh grade. Right. And they loved it. So teaching wisdom through anecdotes and hilarious anecdotes and then they stick with people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People, years later come to me say, I will always remember the point you made when you taught that.

[B]

Well, isn't it funny that you said, please plant that seed. And I saw you used your thumb, and I saw your thumb pushing a seed down, and I'm like, that's what I'll remember at the swings. You know what I mean? Images, stories, these things stick to us so much more. Even sitting here at the beginning of our conversation, I was like, quick, Pete again, status. Looking for me. Being special. Think of those interesting things, you know, about the Jewish faith and say them.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And who cares? The reason I can't even think of them, too is because, like, you know, there's that. There's slogan and really great slogans or really great, oh, did you know this or that. But the stuff that really sticks is like a story. You said, lord of the Flies, and a whole feeling washed over me. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

You know, when. So here's a good little inside thing about Jewish religion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People say, we only believe in one God. I'll say, jews today, why did Jews only believe in one God? They actually don't believe in any God, but at least one is the minimum. If I'm not gonna believe in any God, I just keep it to one.

[B]

Do you run into a lot of atheism all the time? Yeah, that's. That's like a.

[A]

Like, I. Jewish values, Jewish culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I say, so what? What's your culture?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or. I don't mean that many cultured people. Right. It.

[B]

Well, in the Christian tradition, you call that Easter, Christmas Christian.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that Christian culture?

[B]

I guess.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Doesn't sound like culture to me.

[B]

It's not. It's barely. What do you make for. Because atheism. I forget where I learned this, but it was like. It's a pretty modern phenomenon. Yeah. This idea. And I always think of Penn Jillette, who is a just. I always say, he's a gorgeous atheist. I love him. He's really almost like a mystic. Meaning he's resting in the. I don't know. He's not saying. He'll tell you. He's like, could there be a God? Yeah, maybe. I am saying there's no evidence. I don't see the evidence. But he's saying, my flag says, I don't know. And then he explains why that's not agnosticism. Agnostics believe that. They don't believe it's possible. He's saying, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whatever it is.

[A]

Who cares?

[B]

It's boring. We just lost the joke. But, like, so there's that. I guess what I'm putting it to you. What, what you make for all the atheism. Is it suffering? Is it.

[A]

No, it's the Enlightenment. I mean, people rightly blasted the dogma of the church as untenable. For first of all, the scientific revolution and then the Enlightenment and so forth. It just wasn't tenable. It was not sustainable. And religion was very slow on its feet to go. Where they went in the 20th century was the understanding of human consciousness. So they have Jung coming back in, makes a strong case for religion. But then you had to read Jung, meaning that language is metaphoric, language is imagistic. We're not reading the Bible because it is the very word of God, because it is rich in an understanding of the human condition and metaphors for consciousness. So he'll say to me, is it from God? I said, I don't know. There's people touched by God who wrote some of this stuff. But that's not. I mean, I read it for a few reasons. Number one, I'm part of the people. It's our inheritance. There's been great labor and sacrifice to pass the Bible and the Talmud and all of it down. It's amazing. It's beautiful. It binds me to other people. We have an ongoing conversation. So if I say to somebody, job, we're already talking, right? If I say to someone from China and they say, what are you studying, Job? What's that? The Bible. What's that? So, yeah, I can do it, but I'd rather actually be someone, you know, that we're rich. We're already in. In the conversation. So part of. I see Judaism as a coherent language value system, text, metaphors, ways of talking, so we can conduct the business business of deepening and enjoying our lives. So people say, do believe in God. I say, what exactly do you mean? Because they usually mean something that I don't believe.

[B]

Yes, okay.

[A]

So that's why I got to clear that up now. As far as evidence, See, when you go to anything not empirical, for example, justice, see, if you're looking for what is the empirical evidence that the metaphysical value of justice exists? Empirical? Because he says, I don't see any evidence for it. I don't see evidence for the existence of justice either, because people are unjust. So when I say, that's not right, what do I mean? Yeah, so whenever I hear people talk, well, people have a right to do that. I said, you know, because I'm trained. I'm, you Know, but. Doctorate in religion, social ethics, and I did a year of law school. I studied legal theory. So I read books such as what are rights? Where do rights come from? So when a person says, well, I have a right to do it, I say, that's so interesting. Would you like to talk about that? What is a right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And where do they come from? And how do you know when you have them? And what does it license you to do or not do in other people? See, people don't think about this, but ultimately, if it's just made up in our culture, it refers to a justification for action. But if there's something metaphysical, like in the Declaration, human beings are endowed with unalienable rights. Right. They're metaphysically endowed. That's a whole other game. So if I were talking to. Who's the gorgeous. Yeah, yeah. So if you say, I don't see any evidence for it, I say, can we just forget the God thing? Because that's. That's. That's. It's actually not worth having that conversation. Do you believe that human beings actually have rights? When we say human rights?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that a. Is that a sensical statement to you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in what sense is it true?

[B]

I feel like it's a yes.

[A]

Okay. And I'll say, okay, so what is the evidence that there's this metaphysical. Because it's not empirical. What is your evidence for this metaphysical thing called rights that human beings have?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I would be wondering what he would say.

[B]

That's interesting. You want to hear my pedestrian attempt at kind of. I think kind of what you're saying is when I was flying back from Montreal and the flight was canceled, and it's a temperament thing. Maybe it's a fruit of the spiritual work I've done. I don't know. But I'm very good at when things are. It happened. The flight is canceled. I can just sit down. Yeah. I won't be plagued with all the things I'm missing. I don't catastrophize.

[A]

It is what it is, right?

[B]

It is what it is. I'm very. And I. My brain, again, is probably wiring genetics. Who knows? I'll just go, like. Oh, I just have to sit in a chair. You know, I have my book. I have this. There's coffee here. I'm with my friends. Like, I just. That's just how I am. It's a wonderful gift. I hope my daughter has that gift. True. And then meanwhile, a friend of mine, not a close friend, but he's up at the Counter. And he's. He's banging the. He's pissed. He's reading the riot act to the gate attendant. And I'm over here going like, he's mad at United. And then, you know, you go on Twitter and you tweet United, and I really just want to hear your response to this, so I'll bring it in. Pun intended, for Atlantic. I was like, united doesn't exist. There is no United. There's this plane and this engine, and we can. And we like to. To look at patterns and go like, well, this fleet of planes statistically has more delays and this or whatever. But, like, that's kind of like a show me United. We could even get weirder and be like, show me this moment. Show me this room. I was just laughing so hard. I was like, we're in this room, but to know the room, you have to kind of go around and pinch everything to get that sensory data. And I just pinched that table, so I have a memory of it, but now I'm pinching the counts, and I'm just remembering that I pinched that and it was there. So it's like nothing is. Does any of that make sense?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

It's all falling apart, and we all go around going like, this room smells like God.

[A]

One of the core questions of ontology, the theory of being, and people got really stuck ever since Aristotle. So Manuel Kant comes along and talks about what's called phenomenology, which means the study of perception. Why? Why in. In. In perception, do things organize themselves in certain ways so you can function with the world, and you come to Heidegger and so forth? So what's behind your question is a profound philosophical discipline, which is when we say United, it's a linguistic way to organize something. Okay? It's like there's a company and the charter, and there's all these other people. But does it have a will? Is it conscious? Did it actually do something?

[B]

Right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is not an independent being with a will of its own.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's a. It's a corporate system that came down to a person upon. Upon whom you can take out your anger for something that is not conscious and willful. Okay? Now, there might be an inefficiency somewhere, but it is not that person, right? So to stand back and say, you know, because I've studied, you know, theory of being, like, what is and what is not, I would say there's no conscious entity with a will called United Produce this. There's a glitch somewhere, and it might be Somewhat systemic, but who wants to think that hard? I'll just rather say it's united and you're at fault. Yes.

[B]

I wrote this in my book. Johnny Damon, I think, was on the Red Sox for many years. And then I happened to be at a ball game with my dad, and then Johnny Damon was on the Yankees. And everyone claps when he comes out. And I was like, something profound is happening here. We're transcending labels. We know. It's almost like soul awareness. It's like Johnny Damon as a Yankee isn't real in the same way Johnny Damon as a Red Sox wasn't real. And we're like. We have one foot in two streams at that moment. And I'm watching. I'm not putting them down, but I want to say beer swilling. Just because it was like a pedestrian kind of event. Like, nobody's necessarily being philosophical, but in that moment, like laughing at a joke. And you don't know why they're clapping for Johnny Damon. And it's like their love of what he was is informing.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? This is great, what you're saying. Because human consciousness is so philosophic at all times. We're clapping because we admire them. And he used to be. When he's.

[B]

Yes, yes. That's deep.

[A]

That's deep. But it's the philosopher who unpacks it. See, people operate this level all the time.

[B]

It's. It's every day.

[A]

Yeah. So for me, because I love thinking about these things, Right. I've studied the philosophers who have said, let me try to explain this. And that's why when I say I love reading philosophy, it's like somebody else loving reading how an internal combustion engine works.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I want to know how things work.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I want to know how consciousness works. I want to know how jokes work. Yeah. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you a gift right now.

[B]

Please.

[A]

It's called Meinung's Jungle. M E I N U N G M E I U N G U N G Jungle. Yeah.

[B]

I was gonna ask what should I check out based on.

[A]

Well, just. This is just something. It just occurred to me.

[B]

Okay, go ahead.

[A]

I want to put this in under your Christmas tree.

[B]

I can't wait.

[A]

All right. It's the place where concepts that don't exist exist.

[B]

Jungle.

[A]

Yeah. Mining.

[B]

Minung.

[A]

Is that real? No, it's a mining show. When somebody thought it, it just doesn't correlate with anything.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But, boy, did it consume our thinking.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they exist. But in mining's jungle.

[B]

Yeah, right. Oh, I like that.

[A]

How many things do people think about stuff, but it doesn't exist.

[B]

Yeah, it does. It digs over there in mining jungle.

[A]

I think I got the name right. If not, it's pretty close.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Once I discovered that concept. That's like the gift of a philosopher.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

To name the things that we think about that have no connection with reality.

[B]

Would United be in that jungle?

[A]

Well, United actually is suggested because it is a corporation. It is an organization. It does do business. It does have parameters. It does have a function. So to say it's willful. That's not such a jump.

[B]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It kind of goes back to that joke you told. You work at United States and you are United. You are part of United, and then you're fired. And now you are not part of United.

[A]

But if I see you on the street, you will still be part of United.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. There was a song. I reference it all the time. I should really look up what it is. But I think this guy was on LSD and he's in Chicago. And he kept touching things and going, is Chicago is not Chicago. And I'm like that. Yeah.

[A]

Philosophic, man. That's very deep.

[B]

It's what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just think of framing a picture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What?

[B]

The art stops here. What?

[A]

Exactly. Isn't that amazing that your eye says here. No, no, no, no, no. It's this. It's this or these sounds.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Craft the sounds.

[B]

This way.

[A]

Boring. Beautiful. Interesting. Deep. You know, it's like notes and pauses.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Organization.

[B]

Right.

[A]

How does the brain do that?

[B]

I know.

[A]

I mean, it's just. I mean, I love thinking about these things.

[B]

Well, the prioritization of what's important. And this goes back to Steven Pressfield. The fact that your brain is working on your next book or whatever it might be while you're on a walk. Like, you go on a walk and you come back and that problem that you had is now solved. So that let's. I mean, we could unpack this. That supposes that there's a part of your awareness that is in favor of you finishing that thing.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And it. It was effortless. Thinking is hard. Going on a walk and just letting the background program fix it for you was effortless. So that sort of like, seems to. Has a lot of implications.

[A]

Consciousness is so interesting is when I sometimes give myself a thought problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'll know what I think in two days.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

As A practice. Propose a question and tell my soul. You work on this.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Tell me what you come up with.

[B]

That's great. That was in Mad Men. Did you watch Mad Men with your great tv?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I loved it.

[B]

It's great. And there was a. They're talking about creativity and they go, think really hard about it. They're trying to come up with a slogan or something. Think really hard about it for two days, then put it out of your mind.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And I've known a lot of people that. Maybe not a lot, but they think a problem at night, then they go to sleep and they wake up. That's why I told you I do death work at night.

[A]

Just.

[B]

There's just so much to do during the day. But my unconscious is like, can we talk about this? And I'm like, yeah, I made a whole special room for you. And it wants to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

While I'm asleep. Something has a want while I'm asleep.

[A]

So deep. Right?

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

It's so deep.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

We've hit more than enough.

[A]

Yeah, we think we have. I feel like we had enough.

[B]

This was such a joy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Am I using it right? This was a mitzvah for me.

[A]

Mitzvah is a duty.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that produces some good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mitzvah means duty.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Obligation.

[B]

So not quite right.

[A]

They've. They've wanted it to mean a good deed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a good deed is actually good deed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So mitzvah is like when I light candle, when my wife lights candles on Friday night.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We do it because it's a mitzvah.

[B]

That's a mitzvah.

[A]

It's a duty that produces a good.

[B]

Right. And there are times when a gift, you might say, like, it's a mitzvah because it was your duty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I see. I think that's where we started blurring.

[A]

So you and I did a mitzvah today.

[B]

Okay. We did our mitzvah.

[A]

You. You have a job that you love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you produce good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I have something good to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna see if we can connect. That's.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Somebody listening to that will say, wow, I just had a thought I never had, and my life got a little bit deeper. Well, I. Yeah, we did a mitzvah here.

[B]

I want to give this to you. Is that I took some mdma. I know I'm the. I'm the one that keeps referencing these drugs, but sometimes those heart opening places And I'm really just trying to give this to you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because sometimes Pete can get hard on himself. And when I was in that state, I was like, of all the things. I'm saying this to you now. Of all the things you could do, you share and you give, and that's beautiful.

[A]

Thank you, man.

[B]

I know that's very basic, but, like, when you really hear it, you go, wait. It's like what I felt like on the Experience. It was like I swept the leaves away and the street was gold. And I was like, I. I wish that for you. I hope you feel that today.

[A]

I think it's a beautiful blessing.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Probably one of those beautiful blessings I've ever received.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

That's a blessing to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, this is going to sound silly. We have the guests say, keep it crispy. That's how we sign off.

[A]

All right. Keep it signed off.

[B]

You say it say, keep it crispy.

[A]

Keep it crispy.

[B]

Is there any way to say it in Hebrew?

[A]

I'd have to really think about that. Not just the words, but the intent.

[B]

No, I know. A latke is crispy. Okay, we're out of here. Keep it as unto a latke. That's what we'll say.

[A]

Keep it as unto. Alaka's Yiddish, not Hebrew.

[B]

Oh, fuck.

[A]

See, we'll get there.

[B]

We'll get there.

[A]

We'll get there.

[B]

I'm a new student.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And how do I take your parenting course?

[A]

Oh, it's online. Just go to Rabbi Finley.com and.

[B]

Because I think everyone listening is going to look that up.

[A]

Yeah. Rabbi Finley dot com. I'm in the middle of it now, so it might be gone, but we're going to put up on teachable or something. Something.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I have wisdom courses that I, again, people say are life changing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was ill for. I had a. I got sick and I had heart. Heart bypass surgery. I've been recovering for many months, so I've been off for close to a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm just getting back now. Wow. And very, very glad you are putting stuff back up there.

[B]

That's great. Well, we're gonna. I'm gonna watch it with my wife, and I'm gonna watch Ninja Turtles.

[A]

Okay, I'll send you a link. How's that?

[B]

Please send me the link. All right. So happy to be in touch. Thank you.

[A]

It.