Richard Rohr #3

Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes — Richard Rohr #3 (June 11, 2025)

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Episode Overview

In his third appearance on "You Made It Weird," Franciscan priest and spiritual teacher Father Richard Rohr returns for a profound, affectionate, and at times playful conversation with Pete Holmes. The episode revolves around Rohr’s new book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, and tackles big questions about love, suffering, spiritual maturity, nonduality, trust, and the transformation found in embracing both joy and heartbreak. The tone is warm and philosophical, with Pete and Rohr displaying mutual admiration as they explore what it means to move beyond religious superficiality into deeper connection with God, others, and ourselves.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nature of Kindness, Love, and Nonduality

• Kindness as Spiritual Practice
  • Pete recalls Rohr's habit of truly seeing people, asking how conversion influences Rohr’s kindness—Is it effortful, innate, or recognition of shared being? (08:36)
    • Rohr: “It’s both…As I get older…I don’t let the eccentricities of people irritate me as much.” (09:19)
  • Rohr distinguishes between “nice” (social convention) and genuine gospel love:
    • “Victorian politeness is not gospel love.” (09:56)
• On Oneness and the Paradox of Love
  • Pete probes the “impersonal yet intimate” nature of God-encounter and oneness (13:04), reflecting nondual experiences.
  • Rohr affirms, “You have to have experienced it to give such precise words.” (13:13)
  • Pete: “The love of God, I guess…the sort of embarrassing gratuity of it.” (14:44)
  • Rohr: “Embarrassing gratuity. That’s what I’m trying to say in this book.” (14:59)
• What Is Love?
  • Rohr draws on William of Ockham and Dostoevsky:
    • “The truest answer is that it’s all about love…Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.” (17:00, 17:32)
    • Love involves surrender, risk, and inevitable suffering. “When you walk the plank of love…you’re setting yourself up for trials down the road…” (17:40)
• Paths of Transformation
  • “The two paths of transformation—before the way of the cross, before Buddhist meditation—are great love and great suffering. And those are universally available.” (19:15)

2. Trust, Suffering, and the Challenge of Faith

• Trusting Reality and God
  • Pete prompts Rohr on trusting in God amidst suffering and loss, referencing people's early life wounds and projections (22:31).
  • Rohr reflects on how psychological wounds distort our image of God. “That insight is a psychological insight that will help you limit…your wrong expectations of God.” (23:46)
  • Rohr: “The mystics always encounter a lover, not a tormentor.” (24:27)
  • “Any talk of God that does not comfort you is a lie.” (Pete quoting Eckhart, 24:47)
• Deconstruction and Reconstruction
  • Pete mourns when people deconstruct their faith but never reconstruct it, highlighting Rohr as a guide for rebuilding (30:46).
  • Rohr affirms the process: “Reconstruct…yeah.” (31:02)

3. Nonduality and the Christ Consciousness

• Jesus’s Teachings and Mystical Doctrine
  • Pete asks about “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), suggesting Jesus’s “I” is the same universal awareness we all share (25:24).
  • Rohr: “You’re saying it perfectly…[Divine love gives] more permission to be yourself…It’s a communing that all worthiness is shared.” (26:39)
  • Rohr is cautious about claims of individual divinity: “Our divinity is always shared…What they’re really afraid of is egocentricity. But this is the opposite…” (29:16)
• Balancing Christ’s Divinity and Humanity
  • Pete laments how we sanitize Jesus, refusing to let him be fully human (36:23–37:02). Rohr: “The miracle of transformation is holding…his humanity and our humanity.” (37:16)
  • They discuss paradox as intrinsic to mature faith: “He knew how to live with paradox in nonduality easily. You and I normally don’t.” (38:12)
• Scripture and Universalism
  • “For in him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Rohr notes Paul’s genius in adapting to his audience—philosophically and inclusively (40:35, 41:55).
  • Pete: “When we talk about what doesn’t change in reality…people get…tend to lean in.” (44:45)
  • Rohr: “God does not exist as another object of consciousness, but consciousness itself.” (44:28)

4. Religion’s Dangers, Forgiveness, and Spiritual Maturity

• Religion’s Misuse
  • Both speakers acknowledge religion’s coercive, tribal, and exclusionary dangers, but agree it’s more useful to model forgiveness than dwell on past harms (45:21).
  • Rohr: “In my age now, I feel like I’m forgiving everything for being what it is. Universal forgiveness. This. I don’t have time for anything else.” (46:00)
• Contemplative Release
  • Rohr shares his contemplative, effortless “flow” into radical, universal forgiveness as he ages: “It almost comes naturally now.” (46:40)
• The Roots of Evil and Scapegoating
  • They discuss the tendency to externalize evil (Satan as “the accuser”—categorizing, judging, othering) (47:56).
  • Rohr: “It’s just. There’s direct scapegoating and nothing new. They’re direct neighbors, the Samaritans. They have a devil.” (48:40)

5. Scriptural Critique and Transformation

• What Rohr Would Change About the Bible
  • He critiques the “preoccupation with sin” and purity codes, advocating for solidarity instead. Dislikes “sin management” clergy roles.
  • “If there’s one book I wish we hadn’t included, it’s definitely the Book of Revelation…It has done more damage because…people don’t know how to read that.” (51:23)
  • Pete notes the arc of the Bible as paralleling the arc of human life—starting with rules, ending with surrendered wisdom (52:42).
• The Beatitudes vs. American Culture
  • Rohr contrasts the Eight Beatitudes (“blessed are those who weep”) with American ideas of success:
    • “I wish, instead of putting the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawn, we put the Eight Beatitudes.” (60:36)
    • “Christianity is sort of the religion of how to lose…how to lose gracefully.” (61:19)

6. Sadness, Tears, and Prophetic Wisdom

• The Transformation of Tears
  • Rohr’s new book focuses on “angry prophets” who end in sadness rather than rage:
    • “They start angry but they end sad. Sadness feeds the soul…Anger just emboldens the ego.” (56:39)
  • In men’s work, Rohr reminds men that beneath anger is often deep grief: “Many of you think you are angry…Let me tell you something even more true…You’re deeply sad.” (58:17)
    • Title of the book: “The Tears of Things — that everything has sadness.” (59:22)
  • “Jesus calls it a blessed state—blessed are those who weep. That’s really quite amazing.” (59:22)

7. Artificial Intelligence and the Future

• Pete asks about AI; Rohr admits uncertainty and expects both good and bad:
  • “We’re going to need wise people. Help us see the difference.” (63:34)
• Rohr describes reading an AI-generated imitation: “I read it and I said, my God, that’s me. That’s the way I talk. My metaphors, my aphorisms…” (64:10)
• Pete ponders that future generations might “have a conversation with an amalgamation of you based on conversations like this.” (64:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Love:
  • Rohr (17:32): “Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.”
  • Pete (14:44): “The love of God…the sort of embarrassing gratuity of it.”
• On Nonduality:
  • Rohr (13:13): “You have to have experienced it to give such precise words. That’s excellent.”
  • Rohr (29:16): “Our divinity is always shared…this is the opposite of egocentricity.”
  • Rohr (26:39): “A moment of great love…You’re more yourself than you ever were before. But you’re also utterly free from any need to make a spectacle of yourself.”
• On the Bible:
  • Rohr (51:23): “If there’s one book I wish we hadn’t included, it’s definitely the Book of Revelation…People don’t know how to read that.”
• On Forgiveness:
  • Rohr (46:00): “In my age now, I feel like I’m forgiving everything for being what it is. Universal forgiveness. I don’t have time for anything else.”
• On Suffering and Joy:
  • Rohr (59:22): “Everything has sadness. And if you can get in touch with that empathetically, you’re a long way down the road of wisdom and holiness. That’s why Jesus calls it a blessed state—blessed are those who weep.”
• On Christianity:
  • Rohr (61:19): “Christianity is sort of the religion of how to lose…how to lose gracefully.”
• On AI:
  • Rohr (64:10): “I read it [AI-generated text] and I said, my God, that’s me…We’ve achieved this level of genius.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Kindness, Oneness and Love: 06:25–15:38
• Defining Love, Suffering, and Transformation: 15:38–21:16
• Trusting God, Mysticism, and Psychological Projections: 22:31–25:00
• Christology, Nonduality, and Scripture: 25:24–31:01
• Jesus as Human and Divine, Paradox in Faith: 36:23–39:26
• Acts 17:28, Oneness and Participation in God: 40:33–45:08
• Forgiveness and Universal Acceptance: 46:00–47:56
• Scapegoating, Evil, Othering: 47:56–49:26
• What’s Wrong and Right with the Bible: 50:42–53:44
• Sadness, Tears, and Prophetic Maturity: 56:39–61:04
• Final Reflections, AI and the Future: 63:31–65:40

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Recurring Themes and Episode Tone

• Mutual Affection & Humor: The episode is warm and sometimes lightly comedic, with Rohr telling Pete he’s “more than a comedian…a philosopher” (15:12), and Pete (playfully) asking for theological validation.
• Depth with Approachability: Despite the heavy topics, Pete’s childlike wonder, storytelling, and quips (“sacrilicious”!) make the dialogue accessible.
• Urgency for Practical Wisdom: Rohr consistently returns to the need for lived, embodied love over doctrinal or abstract religion.
• Humility and Universality: The pair stress spiritual principles accessible to all, not just the religiously devout.

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Final Notable Exchanges

• Rohr on his new book and prophetic sadness: “They start angry but they end sad. Sadness feeds the soul…That’s why Jesus calls it a blessed state.” (56:39, 59:22)
• Pete on reconstructing faith: “You were the…important voice that were like, let me show you where I went. The reconstruction.” (30:46)
• The classic sign-off:
  • Pete: "Would you please...say keep it crispy? It’s the silly way we end the show. You’ve done it twice before." (65:16)
  • Rohr: "Here’s Richard: Crispy." (65:27)

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Summary:
This is a rich, profound conversation between Pete Holmes and Richard Rohr on the gritty beauty of love, the necessity of suffering, and the spiritual maturity achieved through nondual awareness, universal forgiveness, and prophetic tears. Full of quotable wisdom and gentle humor, it’s an episode that will resonate deeply for listeners navigating faith, loss, and the journey from deconstruction to joyful reconstruction.

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it weird. You made it weird. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You made it weird. Yes.

[A]

You made it weird.

[B]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? I am thrilled if you listen to this podcast. You know that the episodes that I love the most are when I get to sit down with someone like this, with Richard Rohr, Father Richard Rohr, who. Who's written books that have absolutely changed my life and millions and millions of other people's lives. Absolutely unbelievable person I call my spiritual father. I'm so glad you're here. He has a new book. I'm holding it up right now. If you're watching this on the YouTube. The tears of Things, his new book, Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. It is timely. I'm so glad he wrote it. I'm so glad that he's not done. There's so much for him to say about these times we're living in. So much. So check it out. I got it on audio as well, which is wonderful. So check out the tiers of things and everything that Richard does. I start my day by reading just this, which is a very short chaptered book that is a wonderful way to start your mornings. And I also love the universal Christ very, very much. These are incredible books and everything he has on YouTube and everything he has on itunes. I just, I love this man so, so much. And I'm so glad you're here. You're going to hear how loving and generous and warm he is. And it's just going to hopefully. For what it did for me. Do for you, will do for you what it did for me. That's what I meant to say. Meaning make your day better and brighter. So check out the Tears of Things by Father Richard Rohr. He is incredible. This is his third time on the podcast. Only a couple things to plug and then we'll jump into the episode. I am on tour. If you're listening to this, the week comes out. I'm in Irvine, California this weekend, followed by San Jose. I have a show in Los Angeles, then Houston, Royal Oak, Michigan, Washington, D.C. boston, New Hampshire, Spokane, Washington, St. Louis, Missouri, Cleveland, Chicago. Just announced Chicago on November 6th, Homestead, Pennsylvania and Atlantic City. And as I say every week, New York will be announced soon. Those are going all the way into November though. All of those are available on peteholmes.com and if you like this show, try one of our sponsors because our sponsors are actually things that I use and truly love. It goes like this. I find something I love. I reach out to them. And one of those things that I love and of course that I'm wearing right now is the perfect jean. Father's day is coming up, coming up. And if you're like me, you struggle knowing what to get for your dad. Well, as a dad, I'll tell you Perfect jean is the perfect pair of pants. It's a little bit of stretch, but they're designer looking, perfect feeling they feel like pajamas. 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So glad you're here. Get into it. I. You know, this is the third time you've been on this podcast and this podcast is sort of. No, it's not sort of. It is how we met in Laguna beach that one time beach.

[A]

I remember.

[B]

And what a. What a life changing encounter that was for me and for so many of our listeners. And I'll never pass on an opportunity to say what a gift you are. Specifically your teaching, which I think is your love language, that you. You aren't the special boy necessarily, but you're. I think you are. But your work has transformed and helped so many people. And specifically people on this comedy podcast come out of the woodwork to tell me how much you've shaped how they.

[A]

Oh, that makes me happy.

[B]

Yes. How they look at reality. What's better than that?

[A]

Yeah, what's better than reality?

[B]

And we are. I want to talk about the book, but if it's okay, I. I had a very specific thing come up that I wanted to ask you about. Is that all right? Well, it's sort of. Also, I'm just gonna have to try not to just love on you the whole time. But when I always do, when I. When I've spent time with you, the thing that I always tell people is just what a seer of people you are, an appreciator of people you are. And that when we would just be going into a hotel or something, you would greet somebody in the lobby and just really reflect their dignity and their reality and. And see them like you took a moment to see them. Yes. I mean, that is what I was so moved by. I'm sure you've heard the I didn't come to learn from my master. I came to watch him tie his shoes thing.

[A]

I haven't heard that line.

[B]

Oh, that's a Zen thing.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. I came to watch my master tie his shoes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And the times I've spent with you watching you tie your shoes. I wasn't grading you. I was just so touched to see. Here's my question. I'd love to hear your reflection on this. When it comes to kindness, Richard, you've lived this life and kindness and seeing everyone as brother or sister, God's child, or the very same essence that we all are. I'm curious. What role has conversion played in your kindness? Are you kind out of an effort, like a good Kansas boy? Out of being polite, out of wanting to be loving because it feels good? And. And how much of it. This is a very heady question, and maybe it's not a good one, but how much of it is recognizing the sacred moment that right now we're talking to ourself, that you are. You and I are the same.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're branches on the same vine. And when I can be converted and have a God encounter, when I see you, I'm not being kind to you. I'm recognizing our shared essence.

[A]

You're answering your own question.

[B]

Welcome to the show. I can't stop doing it. I want to hear your thoughts.

[A]

It's both. It's both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd be lying if I said I approach every person with that God image glaring at me many times. It's a hard choice. People who irritate you or whatever. So it's unhealthy.

[B]

Fours.

[A]

But it's coming much easier as I get older.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't let the eccentricities of people irritate me really as much.

[B]

It just. It. It. Do you think that faded away?

[A]

Naturally, yes.

[B]

Because obviously I think a lot of us confuse conversion or enlightenment or self realization with being nice and being happy and being calm. Right.

[A]

Such a sellout. The word nice is never in the New Testament.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Victorian politeness is not gospel love.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I. I agree. But isn't it interesting that let's say we went to watch our master tie his shoes and he did get mad about something, like he lost his temper, like, we don't know what to do with that. We don't. We don't know how to like. It's much easier for me to include other people. But when it's my own rage or disgust or whatever. Pick your thing. It's really hard for me to go. I too am a lawful expression of the one. Suddenly I'm a wicked little boy on the outside.

[A]

Very good. Have you heard, as a good Catholic boy, I've got to say it. Have you heard the motto of Pope Leo?

[B]

No.

[A]

I'll translate it for you in Latin. In ilo una, in the one unum. In ella una unum. In the one we are one.

[B]

Yes. Wow.

[A]

I think any of the world religions can respect that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It hasn't received a lot of publicity yet. Well, I'm overjoyed with him.

[B]

Yes. Is that right?

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

I never met him before, but I sure like what I'm seeing.

[B]

Oh, that's wonderful. Of course I thought of you. You're my closest person that would have a real vested interest in the new Pope. So I'm glad to hear this and. Wait, did he say the anuno unum thing?

[A]

It was. It was in the press. Oh, wasn't from his voice, but he. You have to choose a motto. So it's somewhere in the Vatican, I guess.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know. You choose the motto. How fun.

[A]

You have to have a motto, and.

[B]

That'S a very non. Dual model.

[A]

And very universal religious.

[B]

And very universal religious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I mean, would you talk a little bit about. I've become much more non dual in the years that I've known you, and I've had some authentic encounters at the. The intimacy and the impersonality. It's impersonal and. And it's intimate meaning. It's. It's all these paradoxes. It's nothing, it's everything. It's everybody asking God yes or no questions. Makes no sense to it. You. You make that quote. There's one thing that God can't do, which is add or subtract. Do you remember that? So when we talk about oneness, it's really. It gets really tricky to talk about. It's probably why it's so unpopular. Right. It's not very special if we're all in. If we're all one, we lose our shininess and we lose our. The fun of being included. Isn't that right?

[A]

I like what you said right at the beginning. It's both impersonal and intimate. Intimate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That shows. You have to have experienced it to give such precise words. That's excellent. You didn't learn that from me.

[B]

Well, I have had. I'm very fortunate to have had that experience. And there's a sort of. I know. You know this. There's a. There's a. Like a weeping or a laughing. There's a real.

[A]

Yeah, you have.

[B]

That comparison of trying to please God is like our children bringing us these crude crayon drawings and God puts them on the fridge. I think I've told you this before. I asked this non. Dual, this oneness, if it loved or knew Pete. Because, you know, there's this idea that complete, perfect oneness couldn't even really know about Richard or Pete. It's. It's perfect. It can't know things subject to object. But when I was sort of in that way and asking it that, it was like, do you love Pete? It was like, that's like asking the ocean, will I get this wet or will I get this wet? It's like. It's all I do. All I am is wetness. Like, bring me anything. You could say, do you love my imaginary. Like, if my daughter said, do you love my imaginary friend? I would say yes, and I would mean it. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, there's a. I saw. Loved your daughter.

[B]

Yes. I'm so glad.

[A]

How old is she now?

[B]

She's six now.

[A]

Six, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so glad you've gotten to see her, and I hope you get to see her again.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

But do you know what I'm talking about? That. That unquestioning abundance, The. The love of God, I guess. The. The sort of embarrassing gratuity of it.

[A]

Embarrassing gratuity. That's what I'm trying to say in this book.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

And you've summed it up. You know, you're a bit of a philosopher.

[B]

You. Stop it.

[A]

More than a comedian.

[B]

I'm trying. Well, that's certainly true. I'm trying to nudge you into the faucet.

[A]

Something profound.

[B]

No, I. Look, if this is just you telling me that, I understand. That'll be nice for me. I just know people would love. How. What. What part of your new book does that make you think of? How does that resonate? The embarrassing.

[A]

Yesterday, they interviewed me on the last chapter of the book, which is on love. I quote the English Franciscan, William of Ockham. Speaking of philosophy, did you ever hear of the name?

[B]

No.

[A]

He invented what's spoken of in philosophy class as Occam's razor. Have you ever heard of that?

[B]

I do know. Occam's razor.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. His. He. The Summary of it is he develops it much more with much greater complexity. The truest answer is the most simple one. He expressed Franciscan simplicity philosophically. And I use that as the beginning of the final chapter in the book that I say the truest answer is that it's all about love. Which sounds so sentimental now and so overdone and so Valentine ish. But defining love in the most sophisticated, theological, philosophical, psychological way, that's true.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's all about love.

[B]

It has been co opted by the chocolate and greeting card people. Right. Well, that's. I don't think we can say this enough. I'd love to hear you. I'll start you off. Love is not just a good feeling or love is not just a preference or liking some. Somebody. Right. It's more radical than that.

[A]

You know the quote I've been using, you tell me is a Tolstoy or Dostoevsky. Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.

[B]

Oh, wow. No, I don't think I've heard that.

[A]

Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.

[B]

Tell me why.

[A]

Well, I don't know what his thinking was exactly. I have to look it up before I quote it again. When you walk the plank of love and surrender to anything, affirm its inherent goodness apart from you, which is what you're doing. When you love something, you're setting yourself up for trials down the road because you've got to be faithful to that. You know that as a married man. Although I know you have a beautiful marriage and a beautiful daughter too. So maybe the trials haven't come yet. I hope they don't, but they will in some form. Sickness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do a lot of marriage counseling and even the most lovely couples can reach impasses where two loving people just can't get out of it. Can't get out of the desire to not love, to withhold myself so to continue to give yourself. That's why I believe, and you've heard me say it on. But the two paths of transformation before the way of the cross, before Buddhist meditation are great love and great suffering.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And those are universally available. I dare to think they were available to the Stone Age people in their own primitive. Yes, beautiful way.

[B]

Well, that. That is why that teaching is worth repeating. I don't think it's ad nausea. Nobody is nauseated. I can't hear it enough because unfortunately I. I was thinking about what you said the other day where I was like, if it's just on the span of time, if it's just people who had access to the gospel and Jesus's crucifixion. When you look at creation, how many people had access to any sort of transformation, any sort of conversion? It's. It's a joke. In the span of time, it's a joke.

[A]

You've got it. How can I take it seriously if God is so stingy with God's truth?

[B]

Right. It has to be ubiquitous. It has to be gratuitous. That's.

[A]

That's the way it is universally available.

[B]

And love and suffering are certainly available to everybody.

[A]

There you go. Thank you.

[B]

Yes. And it's funny. You say, I hope it doesn't. It's funny. It reminds me of a poem I think about all the time, but I'm going to be the one who can't remember who said it. But they're like, asking the poet for another verse is like asking him to have his heart broken again. Because we know that all of these things come from, you know, the lotus grows in the mud. So even though you say, I hope the suffering doesn't come, isn't there a cheeky little part of us that goes, but I hope it does. But I hope it does because that's where there's so much richness.

[A]

So you're a philosopher. Very good. Very good.

[B]

I. I appreciate that. I appreciate, well, love and suffering, converting us and changing us and. And chasing us. I mean, that's. That's really beautiful.

[A]

Good word, good word.

[B]

Chasing. Right.

[A]

Chasing.

[B]

Seducing.

[A]

The Hound of Heaven.

[B]

The Hound of Heaven.

[A]

Yeah, the Hound of Heaven.

[B]

But not the hound that wants you to not smoke or drink or swear or whatever. The hound that wants to devour you into itself, to return. Right.

[A]

Not just a philosopher.

[B]

Stop it. You bring it out of me.

[A]

How do you see those things?

[B]

I can't. Well, I can't help but. I mean, I don't know if I'm showing off, but I love you, and you've brought me to these things. You've brought me to these things. It's fun to reflect them to you. I remember asking you about death, and I was asking you about, you know, how can we trust? It comes down to a trust. You know, you're going into an unknown, and then you look at the world and there's so much craziness and. And suffering and pain, and. And then you go, how do we know that we're not gonna die and. And transcend into some horrible place? And you talked about the mystical encounter. Do you remember? Or. What does that make you think of now? How. One of the big issues is how can we trust reality. How can we trust this God?

[A]

That's the biggie. Really.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the wounds of early life make that very difficult for an awful lot of people when life wasn't trustworthy already as a little child, your heart just breaks for them. I met so many in the jail when he used to be chaplain there. They were. They looked so macho and tough and sinister. And you sit there and hear their story. And they were little boys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crying for Daddy's love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mother's love.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or sometimes both.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. You helped me understand that. That my projection of the. In my version, it's the drunk dad. God is drunk dad who. If. If he gets close to me, he's going to devour me or he's. Or he's going to want to punish me or. Or it's. It's not safe. But that has a lot. Would you say that that has a lot more to do with psychology than an honest God encounter?

[A]

Yeah. That. That insight is a psychological insight that will help you limit your expectations or your wrong expectations of God. God is like my dad or God is like my mother. Our God is like a king or a queen, most of whom have been tyrants.

[B]

Yeah. I remember you saying the. The mystics always encounter a lover, not a tormentor.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And isn't that. That's like one of the avenues of faith is. Is sort of taking their word for it, going like. I believe that Meister Eckhart went somewhere and tasted something real. And he says that any talk of God that does not comfort you is a lie. And that. And that quote blows me away.

[A]

I'm not perfect.

[B]

And it sounds like it lands. You know what I mean? You go, of course. Yes. There's an intuitive knowing of that a recognizing.

[A]

Eckhart was such a mystic that the church never canonized him a saint. He didn't know what to do with that level of unitive consciousness. So they just sort of kept it at a distance to our loss.

[B]

I. I agree. It's exciting, though. I think one of the things the Internet is doing is letting those cats out of those bags.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Wouldn't you say it's. Why do I know. Why do I know that? Well, I know that quote because of Father Boyle. But I mean, you hear these things and they get passed around and it sort of can't be stopped. It's too. It's too delicious. It can't be stopped. Let me ask you this, Padre. When I wanted to ask you specifically about John, it's John 10:30, which is I and the Father are one. Jesus says I and the Father are one. I would love to hear what. What do you. What do you make of that, of that claim? And I'll even load it a little bit more from where I'm sitting today. I think Jesus is saying I, the one I. The same knowing that you have and that I have before. It's qualified by experience and our memories and our stories. But the knowing or the being that you are is I. Jesus didn't say Jesus and God are one. He said I and the Father one. I find that significant and a hint to the. The same eye that you and I share is one with. All that is. Is that. What do you make of that?

[A]

If I'm understanding you, you're saying it perfectly. You have to include individuation and communion and not give in on either end. They're both intensely true. A moment of great love, especially a moment of great love with God. You're more yourself than you ever were before. And we're given more permission to be yourself in the presence of divine love. But you're also utterly free from any need to make a spectacle of yourself as something special or different or above or worthy. It's a. It's a communing that all worthiness is shared. And yet it's an individual rejoicing in the same moment. Does that make sense?

[B]

It does. Absolutely. And I'm not trying to drag you into the sacrilecious waters. Sacrilegious. But I like sacrilicious because it's so tasty. But we Christians. And I'm sorry to bring you into the basics. I. I know there are new ideas to express, but people really love this stuff coming from. From you. When we get to what you essentially are and what I essentially am, that means in the. In the deep sleep or the moment I'm born, before I even know what I am. Take your. Take your moment. That. That being, that knowing, that sort of spacious awareness, that luminous emptiness. All these words that kind of perceives and senses. But every sense is made of the knowing of that sense. That. That knowing is the only knowing there is. Again, Meister Eckhart, the eye with which I see God is the same eye that God sees me. That there is only one knowing. Do you see why I'm worried that we might get sacrilegious?

[A]

It's the only knowing that matters.

[B]

So if we. If we're talking about it as consciousness, that the one consciousness, the I am, is the same I am, that you are experiencing when you, Richard, say, I am. Yes, yes. But you see how that can get tricky, right? I mean, people don't really want you to say that, do they?

[A]

Well, they're afraid you're. You're claiming individual divinity. Our divinity is always shared. And they're so afraid of that. Why, there's much worse things to be afraid of. Thank you. One's divinity. What they're really afraid of is egocentricity. But this is the opposite of egocentricity. It's precisely knowing you are one. In the one, as Pope Leo's motto.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the one, we are one.

[B]

And there's no room for specialness or narcissism or power in utter oneness.

[A]

Once you use it that way, you're not there anymore.

[B]

Right. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now you're selling something else.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Interesting. I love that.

[A]

Understand. So. Well. Thank you.

[B]

Well, Pops, I. I read you every morning and it's been utterly, utterly life changing. And as I say to every time we talk, it's the. That's why I have these verses written down that I'd love to talk to you about. It's. I meet a lot of people that have deconstructed their Christianity, specifically their Christianity, and then never reconstruct it.

[A]

Reconstruct.

[B]

And I. And I. I mourn. Because that was very significant to me. And you were the. One of the very important voices that were like, let me show you. Let me show you where I went.

[A]

The reconstruction.

[B]

The reconstruction. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. Can I throw another verse at you? John 8:58. Let's see how priestly you feel today. Do you know John 8:58? It's like being on Jeopardy.

[A]

Not the woman caught in adultery. It's what follows that? No, you're gonna have to tell me.

[B]

I'll tell you. It's when Jesus says, before, Abraham was. I am.

[A]

Oh, I am. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Would you. Would you. What does that verse mean to you? It's a weird. The language of it is weird.

[A]

He's saying it to a Jewish audience. Abraham is, after Yahweh himself, the farthest they can reach into transcendence. So he's using a language they can understand. Abraham is as far back as they can reach in their history. And he's saying, I was there. It's a daring statement, isn't?

[B]

Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

Well, it's even a. By normal standards, it's a heretical statement. Don't they pull out their hair when he says that?

[B]

I'm pretty sure. Pardon the interruption. Weirdos. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Tushy Tushy Bidets. You got to up your bathroom game and Tushy Bidets is the perfect way to do it. Have you ever been emotionally scarred riding the subway? I have and seen a literal butt sweat print left on the seat. Well, it's time to rethink how we're caring for our swampiest body parts. Get get your ass a tushy bidet. Tushy is the everyday luxury bidet that is not a paradox, that's not an oxymoron. It's every day meaning you need one. And it's luxury that you can get instantly onto your toilet that transforms your bathroom habit and your bottom health for life. There is a bidet for every biohacking personality type like the Cloud plus which automatically deodorizes the air when you sit down and aura which automatically opens the seat when you enter the bathroom. You didn't know you wanted that, but you do. I also love the light inside Tushy's bidet. The elevated bidet collection nurtures your bottom with instant warm water that never runs cold, a soothing heating heated seat and UV sterilization for next level hygiene. And all tushy bidets easily attached to your existing toilet without the need for additional plumbing. So keep your swampiest body parts fresh and cool for a limited time. Our listeners get 10% off their first bidet order when you use our code weird and at checkout that's 10% off your first bidet@hello tushy.com with promo code Weird. We are also brought to us by our friends at Mud Water. The warm delicious mix of cacao, chai and adaptogenic mushrooms that dials me into feeling focused and refreshed with just the right amount of energy without feeling jittery or wired. I'm obsessed with Mud Water because it's not just energy, it's warm grounded feeling that it gives you. Not just jacked but earthy and solid for when 3pm rolls around and you're losing energy but don't want another cup of coffee for the jitters and the lack of sleep that comes with it. And there is no crash. It's 100% organic gluten free vegan coffee alternative that's so chock full of goodness it's no wonder it makes you feel amazing. Mushrooms and superfoods to boost your energy focus and your immune system. Cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and a hot chocolate like flavor. If you're ready to make the switch to cleaner energy, head tomud watermud wtr.com and grab the starter kit today. Right now, weirdos get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use Code weird. That's right. Up to 43% off with code weird@mud WTR.com after your purchase, be sure to tell them we sent you. Support your moon morning or your afternoon routine and support the show. Because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. So you were looking up John 8. 58 before Abraham was. I am. In my thinly veiled attempt to get us to nudge us onto the non. Duality of Christ.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you can't get any stronger quote than that one. That's the end of chapter eight. We call that a high Christology. You don't find that everywhere in. Even in John's gospel. But that's about as high as it gets.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Abraham came to be. I am.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is really the divine name. I am.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Jesus normally doesn't walk around claiming divinity, but if there's lines that get close to it, that's one right there.

[B]

And then I guess again, I. I know you're not worried about being in trouble. I just suppose that that I am. To really put a pin on it is the I am that you and I are experiencing right now.

[A]

It has to be it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Of course. Even. But our level of experiential consciousness probably is not as advanced as his. I think it's safe to say that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not putting ourselves down.

[B]

Right. But on that point, I recently, I just saw this clip and it made me. So it's probably Pete stuff that made me upset about it, but somebody was telling the story about when someone touched Jesus's garment. And Jesus said, who touched me? And as they're explaining the story, they said, and of course Jesus knew who touched him. Like they had to rescue Jesus's humanity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just. I don't. I think I'm in a small group here that gets very upset when we're like, can't he not. Why is he Superman? Does he have to be Superman?

[A]

We have to preserve his divinity as if that was our job to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go ahead, please.

[A]

Everything I was gonna say, that's very common.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of course. He knew already. He knew all things. But the miracle of transformation is holding on to his. The fullness with which he identified with his humanity and our humanity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Hold that in Creative tension with before Abraham came to be. I am. Yes, they're both true at the same time.

[B]

Isn't that the whole of Christianity, Father? Isn't that the whole of it? Isn't it important that he didn't know who touched him? Isn't it more valuable that he was a person looking out eyes and felt something? Why does he have to be the all in all that goes, I told you to touch me and you did it. Because I wanted to heal you. And I'm writing this and I'm reading it like he has to be a person.

[A]

He knew how to live with paradox in non duality easily. You and I normally don't. So we want to make him choose sides. Choose your divine side and don't let us see the other. Yes, he held both of them beautifully.

[B]

Well, you even see it in the Christmas carol. Away in a manger. It says, no crying he makes. Like, even baby Jesus isn't allowed to cry. They get him right out the gate.

[A]

Never thought of that.

[B]

He even colicky. It's like, what is gained? It's one of the reasons I don't like Superman as a superhero. It's like, what is gained by this, this perfection that he doesn't even know crying or. You see how hard the gospel writers work to kind of explain away why he let John the Baptist baptize him or why he was following John in the first place.

[A]

You know your scripture better than we Catholics.

[B]

No, I probably learned it from you. I'm just, I. I took note. And again, I'm not trying to keep us sacrilegious here. I'm saying, like, in my understanding of Jesus, he, like all of us, went on a journey. He was order, disorder, reorder. Right.

[A]

That's why what he's saying when he says, I am the way, the path of growth, path of development, the path of unfolding. We've got to walk the same path. You don't start where you end.

[B]

Yes, right. What is the point?

[A]

What's the point?

[B]

What is the point?

[A]

Yeah, you're a wise man.

[B]

Stop it. Stop it. Oh, this will be one that when I'm in a nursing home, Val will replay this episode for me and I'll just smile ear to ear and I'll be like, richard loved me. You love me so perfectly. I love it. Let me, let me throw another one at you. Acts 17:28. For in him we live and move and have our being. This is a different understanding of God. Somewhere else, something else. Watching, judging, thinking about it and. And punishing or rewarding. But in him I live and move and have my being. I know you like that verse.

[A]

Oh, I do.

[B]

Tell me about it.

[A]

They show you the spot. Have you been to Athens ever?

[B]

I have, but I didn't see what you're about to say.

[A]

Oh, there's. We know almost the exact spot.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Where. Where Paul preached and used that line.

[B]

And what is. How is that significant? Is it a.

[A]

Well, it shows how already Paul, you knew to the group he was speaking to and how to adjust his word to the way they thought is a great lesson for later Christianity, which we didn't get. He's talking philosophically. One in whom we live and move and have our being. He isn't quoting directly the Old Testament. He's quoting the way a rational Athenian would think.

[B]

Wow. So he's bending towards them.

[A]

There you go. That's good.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you. You've. You've convinced me that Paul is a genius, a spiritual genius. I. I listened to your tapes on him and. And got very excited about him as well. Whereas I think, like a lot of people, I dismissed him as a misogynist or whatever it might have been.

[A]

Yeah, it's a shame.

[B]

It's too easy. Yeah, it's. You know, when my daughter makes. When she says poop, you know what I say to her? I go, be funnier than poop. That's what I say. I don't say. Don't say poop. I say, be funnier than poop. In this house. In this house, we're funnier than poop. And I give her an example. They don't call me a poop, call me a monkey's butt or whatever you want it like something better. Then. Paul was a misogynist.

[A]

She loves her father.

[B]

Well, you know what else I also think about? Because she still climbs in bed with us. And I think of the Trinity. I think of what you say about the three. The love that she must feel in the. In the. What is it? The valley between the mountains? Yeah. Isn't. Yeah. So talk. I want. I was trying to nudge you towards the participant. God is the ultimate participant, not just Rupert. Spiro, who I love very much, talks about God or awareness being like the screen and we're in the movie. That's. That's a way of understanding. It's in this Christ that we live.

[A]

And move and have our metaphor.

[B]

Isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that great? He's not the only one that uses. Uses it. But like when the vedantic teachers came to the west they did what Paul did and they talked to people who were watching a lot of movies and they adapted the metaphor. And isn't that great? Because it helps me. A joke that I'm working on that I don't think I'll ever get is I go, I believe in God. Don't get me wrong. I don't think God exists. I don't think you can go somewhere and see something subject to object called God. It's like we're characters in a movie talking about the screen. Right.

[A]

You're a mystic. Stop it. Mysticism 101.

[B]

It's Mysticism 101.

[A]

You just said it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You said it with conviction. Thank you. Why are more Christians there?

[B]

I mean, we. Our beloved mirror by star is there. These are the. These are the pointers who taught me about these mystics that have these encounters. But that sort of. We're not going to open a door and see. It's Oz. Talk about where we borrow our images from. It's Oz behind the curtain. We think God is something somewhere. But strictly speaking, God does not exist in the way that you and I.

[A]

Another object of consciousness, but consciousness itself.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Not something that appears in consciousness, but it's the paper that everything's written on because everything that appears in consciousness must disappear. That's how it goes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we're talking. This is why I think you, me, Father Boyle, all agree that you tell me if you agree that you can talk to people about religion and, you know, half will leave, half will say, maybe three quarters will leave. But if you talk about what doesn't change in reality, if you talk about the essence of reality, people get. Tend to lean in.

[A]

Yes. Now some turn you off there, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's a better road than getting religious too quickly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Scares people. With good reason.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We've seen religion so misused in our lifetime, in the history of the world, really.

[B]

It's sort of. It seems to be. It's not its main purpose, but one of. One of its big purposes is to enslave, trap, coerce, control. We don't have to get into that. You know, this. It can be misused.

[A]

It can be. Yeah. But we don't have time to keep beating a dead horse of the mistakes it made.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's like beating the dead horse of the mistakes I've made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Get over it. Of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And maybe do I say it in the new book? In my age now, I feel like I'm forgiving everything for being what it is. Everything. Everything is starting with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Universal forgiveness. This. I don't have time for anything else. I just don't.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you find that to be an intellectual exercise or more of a contemplative releasing a cessation of an effort to judge or criticize into yourself or how would you.

[A]

Definitely. The second. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Contemplative flow. That almost comes naturally now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you've heard me speak of the two halves of life. This is terrible mathematics. But I can't help but feel that I'm in the third half of life. We're just so much. It doesn't matter. Stop fighting about it. Matter. Yeah, it doesn't. It just makes you argumentative. The. The vital flow that God is. And that's a fairly good metaphor. When you don't plug into the vital flow that affirms, chooses, says yes to what's right in front of it. You almost always go to a negative flow of opposing using. I'm sure you've been told, Satan means the accuser. Highly accusatory people on the left as much as the right. Or. Don't go there.

[B]

It's almost like the devil.

[A]

Or.

[B]

Or say Satan. You just said it. Satan is at the. It's almost. That's an activity. It's. It's a way that we can start. Everything is analyzed, labeled, othered, pushed away.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And categorized.

[A]

You know, while I was looking for this passage you quoted at the end of John's Gospel, I saw a passage that I'd never noticed before. John 8. 46. 48. Are we not right in saying you are a Samaritan and therefore possessed by a devil? I never noticed that before.

[B]

How perfect for the new book, the scapegoating.

[A]

Yeah, it's just. There's direct scapegoating and nothing new. They're direct neighbors, the Samaritans.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They have a devil.

[B]

Yes. Aren't you. Aren't you an immigrant? Aren't you eating your pets?

[A]

Aren't you gay? Aren't you?

[B]

Yes. Yes. And again, you've taught me this. There's nothing more pleasant or cheap. It's like a cheat. It's like fast food identity verification to say, I'm not these people and these people are wrong. And it. And it's sort of devilishly delicious to kind of devour that othering. And it makes you exist in contrast.

[A]

You should edit this program and just cut me out of it. You keep talking. You're talking beautifully.

[B]

Stop. Stop it. I can't.

[A]

You don't have a Degree in theology. Do you?

[B]

No, just from Richard Rohr University. I want you to know the rest of your day that there's thousands of people like me that have read everything you've written and that will. That carry it. That don't just carry it. It's. It's, it's permeated our, our bones, our cells. I meet them every day. So I, I want you to. I want you to allow a little bit of good feeling for that.

[A]

It feels too good to be true, but thank you.

[B]

I love it. Here's a, Here's a hot question that we. Again, you have full cut of this. I don't think it's going to throw you, but is there something you would change about the Bible? Like when we talk about the. And to really widen it out, stuff that's kind of caused more harm than good A little. Stuff that's just been a little too. In the way that we cling to and maybe would have been nice if it wasn't there.

[A]

What comes to mind, first of all is the preoccupation with sin. And it's almost entirely defined as purity codes. That's early stage religiosity where you try to create a cult of innocence, that I am not a sinner. Whereas what we see in Jesus is solidarity with sinners. We don't catch the radicality of that eating with them. And as Paul even says he became sin. He's on a different track than we are. This seeking to prove that we're innocent. We clergy became sin managers. And as if we could. If we just thought of the many different faces of evil. And there are. Evil is real. But as Pope Leo just said, evil will not have the final word. I trust he's right. Yeah. The preoccupation with sin. If there's one book I wish we hadn't included, it's. It's definitely the Book of Revelation. It has done more damage because it's all archetypal mythological science fiction and people don't know how to read that.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And so they interpret it all in the most useless ways.

[B]

Well, that's where we always get our. The world's gonna end on whatever. Whatever, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I would agree with you. And, and it's interesting. I think it might have been you, it might have been Rob, Rob Bell that talked about the Bible itself. Sort of has the arc of a human life. The way we were saying. It starts in that sort of. You know, you have to. It starts where you're building your container. Good, bad, right. Wrong. And then as it goes, it gets pretty radically where you are, which is the. Who cares? Let's. Let's settle down.

[A]

The third half of life.

[B]

The third half of life.

[A]

Terrible math.

[B]

It's wonderful.

[A]

You get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

The. The allowing and the surrender. This is something I thought recently. We waste a lot of time talking about whether or not the Bible happened, but this sounds like something you would have said. Isn't the issue more. Is it happening, like, right now? Is it happening right now? Are you and I enabling each other's right seeing? Like, am I reflecting back to you? Your worthiness, your beauty, your inclusion? Are you reflecting it to me? Can we get in our sense knowing?

[A]

The sad thing, Pete, is a lot of people weren't even told that's what they should be wanting. See, in others are in the world. I should want to condemn the world? Oh, my God. So when it isn't even a goal to seek communion, it's something that's made fun of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's lightweight. That comes from our superficial definition of love. Sentimental, good feeling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not a harsh and dreadful thing.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Dawson told me from behind me, that was Dostoyevsky. Oh, yeah.

[B]

The harsh and dreadful thing.

[A]

Love is a harsh and dreadful thing. And Dorothy Day, who worked with the street people in New York, she used that line very often.

[B]

Oh, is that right?

[A]

Love is a harsh and dreadful fish.

[B]

Yeah. Is a better definition than a warm feeling or liking somebody. Well, again, Rupert Spiro would say me recognizing our shared divinity. That's one way of putting it. Like. Or namaste. When you're in the center of your heart or I'm in the center of my heart. We're the same. That. That's authentic. And that in the same way that I can allow myself. I can allow you. It's kind of like I. I benefit from thinking of, like, a dream in a dream. It's all your mind. And it's absurd to say this is good or this is bad. It's all just kind of one thing. Kind of seeing reality and seeing your neighbor as the same one thing. That's a. That's a way of looking at love. Right. It's like we're all in God's dream.

[A]

Did you get nothing but A's in college?

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

Your mind is amazing.

[B]

Stop it. You stop it.

[A]

Forthright is so true. How did Western education not mess you up? That's beautiful. Thank you.

[B]

Oh, Pop, you're. You are too good to me. I love it so much. I. I am getting a lot of that from Rupert Spira, who I love, but you are. You're past. You're done reading books. It's over.

[A]

And writing books.

[B]

It's. Oh, this is it.

[A]

This recent one on the profits is the last one.

[B]

Well, let's. Let's talk about that a little bit before. Before I leave you to your day. Sacred criticism. Good trouble, solidarity, the transformation of tears. Commiserating and grieving with others. Talk a little bit about.

[A]

Well, in our school here at the center in New Mexico, one CONSTANT in the 38 years of our history is I would teach our interns and students the Jewish prophets. So it forced me to really work with them. And I, like many people, get just tired and angry of their railing and yelling and condemning, their preoccupation with sin. They all start there. And if you had a rageaholic father or mother, you just can't hear any more of that. It's unhearable, literally. But what I also learned to do over these years was stay with them. They start angry, but they end sad. What I try to do in my last book is chart that journey from anger to sadness. Sadness feeds the soul. It expands you. Anger just emboldens the ego and strengthens your againstness. Satanic impulse. Yeah.

[B]

And you do a lot of men's work. Don't most men? Or is it just me? When I'm feeling angry, I go, oh, I'm sad about something. There's. There's sadness right under it. And a protector lays over it and gets real blustery to hide the. The broken heart.

[A]

Well, all I know is the years I gave male initiation rights up here at Ghost Ranch, the one liner that most stuck with men was on the third day of grief, as it was called. I would say it very pointedly. Many of you think you are angry, and perhaps you are. Many of you think your father is an angry man, and probably he is. But let me tell you something even more true. Before what you're naming as anger is named, recognize its sadness. You're deeply sad. And literally, a lot of the men would just straighten up in their chair. I had their attention almost as if the whole week pivoted on that saying, wanting to get in touch with that deep sadness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it became the title of this book, the Tears of Things, that everything has tears, everything has sadness. And if you can get in touch with that empathetically, you're a long way down the road of wisdom and holiness. And that's why Jesus calls it a blessed state. Blessed are those who weep. That's really Quite amazing. No imperial religion would ever say, blessed are those who weep. Now, that's religion coming from a different source than the Roman Empire. Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's funny how it's right there. Right? I mean, he said it and we're like, sure, sure. The Sermon on the Mount has a certain white noise to it, wouldn't you say? Like, we've heard it so many times. You, You. You're actually in. You can't hear it.

[A]

It's pretty. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[B]

But blessed are those who weep. Yeah. So you think that cracking heart thing is sacred ground?

[A]

Yeah, I wish. Instead of putting the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawn, we put the Eight Beatitudes. It would never enter our mind as Americans. Forgive me, to do that. The AP attitudes are utterly countercultural to the American agenda of winning and success, accomplishment.

[B]

And haven't you said it's funny to quote you to you. The joke on the show is if there was a drinking game every time I quoted you, people would go blind. But to quote you to you, that Christianity is sort of the religion of how to lose.

[A]

Well, yes, yes. How to lose gracefully.

[B]

Yeah. But we've turned it into how to.

[A]

Win, how to succeed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A winner script which put us all in the wrong direction. And the sad result is nobody wins. We all pretend.

[B]

Yes. Oh, you've been to Hollywood? Always. If you've ever been to a Hollywood party. It's a very confusing thing because it's all these special people. I'm saying is a special in quotes person that goes to these parties. We don't know what to do if there's no audience telling us that we're special. If we're all special, the whole thing falls apart. So these. The Met Gala is a very. I've never been. But I'm saying it's a confusing place if we're all sparkly. None of us are sparkly. We need the others gawking and fawning or suddenly none of us are winning anymore. It's. It's bizarre. I'm not saying that really from my first perspective. I'm saying those places can be very lonely because it's not real. It's not a real win. It's a pretend. You pretend I win, I'll pretend I'm a winner kind of winning.

[A]

Philosophers would say it has no substance.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's no substance.

[B]

Yes. So you have been to Hollywood? Well, Pops, I. Is there anything else about the book? Just. We'll. We'll give it a big push in the beginning. I I certainly wanna.

[A]

I'm not here to have you push the book. Held it up four times.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I said, you don't have to do that. She's the deer.

[B]

How was it seeing her this last time?

[A]

Well, I. She's getting younger.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Make her happy. She just looked 15 years younger than the last time I was with her.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think she's doing well.

[B]

I love that she's a. She's probably a reason why I. I know who you are. Here's one final area. Do you have any thought on AI? Is that. Is that something you pay attention to at all? Artificial intelligence?

[A]

No. I don't know what to think about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I really don't. I know it's going to be another paradox with a bunch of good effects and some bad. So the only thing I can say is we're going to need wise people. Help us see the difference.

[B]

Well, talk about. Yeah.

[A]

Someone put my name in and said, have Richard Rohr give a talk on. I can't remember what the subject was. It took about three minutes. I read it and I said, my God, that's me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's the way I talk. My metaphors, my aphorisms, my. Where that we. We've achieved this level of genius.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll bet they could be almost as funny as you.

[B]

You know, of course that's where my mind went. If you ask it to write a joke in the style of me, it's not there yet. And I'm not saying that. I'm saying that probably because there's less me to mimic than there is you. There. There is something rather interesting that like to consider. Future generations might be able to have a conversation with an amalgamation of you based on conversations like this. This will be more data for some sort of recreation machine of each of us. Isn't that wild?

[A]

You're wild. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. Pops, I love you so much. I really. I'm glad. I'm very glad. And we are coming to New Mexico. I don't know when, but we are coming and we will see you soon. It's gonna happen.

[A]

That'd be great.

[B]

We have to. It's always. Thank you. You. You are the best. Would you please. My friend. Would you say keep it crispy? It's the silly way we end the show. You've done it twice before.

[A]

Here's Richard Crispy.

[B]

Thank you, Michael.

[A]

We ones don't know how to be humorous.

[B]

You're doing great.

[A]

Thank you for teaching me.

[B]

Of course. Thank you.

[A]

Bye. Bye.

[B]

Bye.