You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes — Richard Rohr #3 (June 11, 2025)

Episode Overview

In his third appearance on "You Made It Weird," Franciscan priest and spiritual teacher Father Richard Rohr returns for a profound, affectionate, and at times playful conversation with Pete Holmes. The episode revolves around Rohr’s new book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, and tackles big questions about love, suffering, spiritual maturity, nonduality, trust, and the transformation found in embracing both joy and heartbreak. The tone is warm and philosophical, with Pete and Rohr displaying mutual admiration as they explore what it means to move beyond religious superficiality into deeper connection with God, others, and ourselves.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nature of Kindness, Love, and Nonduality

• Kindness as Spiritual Practice
  • Pete recalls Rohr's habit of truly seeing people, asking how conversion influences Rohr’s kindness—Is it effortful, innate, or recognition of shared being? (08:36)
    • Rohr: “It’s both…As I get older…I don’t let the eccentricities of people irritate me as much.” (09:19)
  • Rohr distinguishes between “nice” (social convention) and genuine gospel love:
    • “Victorian politeness is not gospel love.” (09:56)
• On Oneness and the Paradox of Love
  • Pete probes the “impersonal yet intimate” nature of God-encounter and oneness (13:04), reflecting nondual experiences.
  • Rohr affirms, “You have to have experienced it to give such precise words.” (13:13)
  • Pete: “The love of God, I guess…the sort of embarrassing gratuity of it.” (14:44)
  • Rohr: “Embarrassing gratuity. That’s what I’m trying to say in this book.” (14:59)
• What Is Love?
  • Rohr draws on William of Ockham and Dostoevsky:
    • “The truest answer is that it’s all about love…Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.” (17:00, 17:32)
    • Love involves surrender, risk, and inevitable suffering. “When you walk the plank of love…you’re setting yourself up for trials down the road…” (17:40)
• Paths of Transformation
  • “The two paths of transformation—before the way of the cross, before Buddhist meditation—are great love and great suffering. And those are universally available.” (19:15)

2. Trust, Suffering, and the Challenge of Faith

• Trusting Reality and God
  • Pete prompts Rohr on trusting in God amidst suffering and loss, referencing people's early life wounds and projections (22:31).
  • Rohr reflects on how psychological wounds distort our image of God. “That insight is a psychological insight that will help you limit…your wrong expectations of God.” (23:46)
  • Rohr: “The mystics always encounter a lover, not a tormentor.” (24:27)
  • “Any talk of God that does not comfort you is a lie.” (Pete quoting Eckhart, 24:47)
• Deconstruction and Reconstruction
  • Pete mourns when people deconstruct their faith but never reconstruct it, highlighting Rohr as a guide for rebuilding (30:46).
  • Rohr affirms the process: “Reconstruct…yeah.” (31:02)

3. Nonduality and the Christ Consciousness

• Jesus’s Teachings and Mystical Doctrine
  • Pete asks about “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), suggesting Jesus’s “I” is the same universal awareness we all share (25:24).
  • Rohr: “You’re saying it perfectly…[Divine love gives] more permission to be yourself…It’s a communing that all worthiness is shared.” (26:39)
  • Rohr is cautious about claims of individual divinity: “Our divinity is always shared…What they’re really afraid of is egocentricity. But this is the opposite…” (29:16)
• Balancing Christ’s Divinity and Humanity
  • Pete laments how we sanitize Jesus, refusing to let him be fully human (36:23–37:02). Rohr: “The miracle of transformation is holding…his humanity and our humanity.” (37:16)
  • They discuss paradox as intrinsic to mature faith: “He knew how to live with paradox in nonduality easily. You and I normally don’t.” (38:12)
• Scripture and Universalism
  • “For in him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Rohr notes Paul’s genius in adapting to his audience—philosophically and inclusively (40:35, 41:55).
  • Pete: “When we talk about what doesn’t change in reality…people get…tend to lean in.” (44:45)
  • Rohr: “God does not exist as another object of consciousness, but consciousness itself.” (44:28)

4. Religion’s Dangers, Forgiveness, and Spiritual Maturity

• Religion’s Misuse
  • Both speakers acknowledge religion’s coercive, tribal, and exclusionary dangers, but agree it’s more useful to model forgiveness than dwell on past harms (45:21).
  • Rohr: “In my age now, I feel like I’m forgiving everything for being what it is. Universal forgiveness. This. I don’t have time for anything else.” (46:00)
• Contemplative Release
  • Rohr shares his contemplative, effortless “flow” into radical, universal forgiveness as he ages: “It almost comes naturally now.” (46:40)
• The Roots of Evil and Scapegoating
  • They discuss the tendency to externalize evil (Satan as “the accuser”—categorizing, judging, othering) (47:56).
  • Rohr: “It’s just. There’s direct scapegoating and nothing new. They’re direct neighbors, the Samaritans. They have a devil.” (48:40)

5. Scriptural Critique and Transformation

• What Rohr Would Change About the Bible
  • He critiques the “preoccupation with sin” and purity codes, advocating for solidarity instead. Dislikes “sin management” clergy roles.
  • “If there’s one book I wish we hadn’t included, it’s definitely the Book of Revelation…It has done more damage because…people don’t know how to read that.” (51:23)
  • Pete notes the arc of the Bible as paralleling the arc of human life—starting with rules, ending with surrendered wisdom (52:42).
• The Beatitudes vs. American Culture
  • Rohr contrasts the Eight Beatitudes (“blessed are those who weep”) with American ideas of success:
    • “I wish, instead of putting the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawn, we put the Eight Beatitudes.” (60:36)
    • “Christianity is sort of the religion of how to lose…how to lose gracefully.” (61:19)

6. Sadness, Tears, and Prophetic Wisdom

• The Transformation of Tears
  • Rohr’s new book focuses on “angry prophets” who end in sadness rather than rage:
    • “They start angry but they end sad. Sadness feeds the soul…Anger just emboldens the ego.” (56:39)
  • In men’s work, Rohr reminds men that beneath anger is often deep grief: “Many of you think you are angry…Let me tell you something even more true…You’re deeply sad.” (58:17)
    • Title of the book: “The Tears of Things — that everything has sadness.” (59:22)
  • “Jesus calls it a blessed state—blessed are those who weep. That’s really quite amazing.” (59:22)

7. Artificial Intelligence and the Future

• Pete asks about AI; Rohr admits uncertainty and expects both good and bad:
  • “We’re going to need wise people. Help us see the difference.” (63:34)
• Rohr describes reading an AI-generated imitation: “I read it and I said, my God, that’s me. That’s the way I talk. My metaphors, my aphorisms…” (64:10)
• Pete ponders that future generations might “have a conversation with an amalgamation of you based on conversations like this.” (64:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Love:
  • Rohr (17:32): “Love is a harsh and dreadful thing.”
  • Pete (14:44): “The love of God…the sort of embarrassing gratuity of it.”
• On Nonduality:
  • Rohr (13:13): “You have to have experienced it to give such precise words. That’s excellent.”
  • Rohr (29:16): “Our divinity is always shared…this is the opposite of egocentricity.”
  • Rohr (26:39): “A moment of great love…You’re more yourself than you ever were before. But you’re also utterly free from any need to make a spectacle of yourself.”
• On the Bible:
  • Rohr (51:23): “If there’s one book I wish we hadn’t included, it’s definitely the Book of Revelation…People don’t know how to read that.”
• On Forgiveness:
  • Rohr (46:00): “In my age now, I feel like I’m forgiving everything for being what it is. Universal forgiveness. I don’t have time for anything else.”
• On Suffering and Joy:
  • Rohr (59:22): “Everything has sadness. And if you can get in touch with that empathetically, you’re a long way down the road of wisdom and holiness. That’s why Jesus calls it a blessed state—blessed are those who weep.”
• On Christianity:
  • Rohr (61:19): “Christianity is sort of the religion of how to lose…how to lose gracefully.”
• On AI:
  • Rohr (64:10): “I read it [AI-generated text] and I said, my God, that’s me…We’ve achieved this level of genius.”

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Kindness, Oneness and Love: 06:25–15:38
• Defining Love, Suffering, and Transformation: 15:38–21:16
• Trusting God, Mysticism, and Psychological Projections: 22:31–25:00
• Christology, Nonduality, and Scripture: 25:24–31:01
• Jesus as Human and Divine, Paradox in Faith: 36:23–39:26
• Acts 17:28, Oneness and Participation in God: 40:33–45:08
• Forgiveness and Universal Acceptance: 46:00–47:56
• Scapegoating, Evil, Othering: 47:56–49:26
• What’s Wrong and Right with the Bible: 50:42–53:44
• Sadness, Tears, and Prophetic Maturity: 56:39–61:04
• Final Reflections, AI and the Future: 63:31–65:40

Recurring Themes and Episode Tone

• Mutual Affection & Humor: The episode is warm and sometimes lightly comedic, with Rohr telling Pete he’s “more than a comedian…a philosopher” (15:12), and Pete (playfully) asking for theological validation.
• Depth with Approachability: Despite the heavy topics, Pete’s childlike wonder, storytelling, and quips (“sacrilicious”!) make the dialogue accessible.
• Urgency for Practical Wisdom: Rohr consistently returns to the need for lived, embodied love over doctrinal or abstract religion.
• Humility and Universality: The pair stress spiritual principles accessible to all, not just the religiously devout.

Final Notable Exchanges

• Rohr on his new book and prophetic sadness: “They start angry but they end sad. Sadness feeds the soul…That’s why Jesus calls it a blessed state.” (56:39, 59:22)
• Pete on reconstructing faith: “You were the…important voice that were like, let me show you where I went. The reconstruction.” (30:46)
• The classic sign-off:
  • Pete: "Would you please...say keep it crispy? It’s the silly way we end the show. You’ve done it twice before." (65:16)
  • Rohr: "Here’s Richard: Crispy." (65:27)

Summary:
This is a rich, profound conversation between Pete Holmes and Richard Rohr on the gritty beauty of love, the necessity of suffering, and the spiritual maturity achieved through nondual awareness, universal forgiveness, and prophetic tears. Full of quotable wisdom and gentle humor, it’s an episode that will resonate deeply for listeners navigating faith, loss, and the journey from deconstruction to joyful reconstruction.