Skyler Higley

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes" Featuring Skyler Higley

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Introduction

In the December 18, 2024 episode of You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes, host Pete Holmes engages in an in-depth and candid conversation with comedian Skyler Higley. Known for his sharp wit and insightful commentary, Skyler delves into a range of personal and societal topics, including veganism, identity, race, the evolution of comedy, and the impact of social media on creative expression.

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1. Veganism and Personal Identity

Skyler begins by humorously admitting, "I am a vegan, first and foremost, because it upsets my parents" (01:38). This statement sets the tone for the discussion on how personal choices often intersect with familial expectations and societal norms. He reflects on the complexity of genuine motivations behind lifestyle choices, emphasizing that even well-intentioned actions can be flawed: "Even your good shit is still shit" (01:49).

2. The Perception of Reading and Intelligence

The conversation shifts to the social perception of reading, where Skyler muses, "Is there anything better than being caught reading? It's the opposite of being caught masturbating" (02:32). This humorous contrast highlights societal attitudes towards different behaviors and the judgments we pass based on them. He further explores the ideal conditions for being caught reading, emphasizing solitude and personal engagement with the material.

3. Hypervigilance in Comedy and Audience Perception

A significant portion of the dialogue centers on the concept of hypervigilance in the comedy industry. Skyler explains, "There’s a hypervigilance where you’re having a thought and then you’re thinking of how the thought might be perceived by you, but also the audience" (05:45). This awareness affects how comedians craft their material, balancing personal expression with audience expectations.

Pete adds, "Comedy is so subjective that you're like, oh, yeah, show the shirt" (07:43), illustrating the tension between maintaining authenticity and catering to diverse audience tastes. They discuss how social media has transformed comedy into a "clip factory," where the drive for viral moments can undermine the development of genuine comedic craft.

4. Evolution of Comedy Styles: British vs. American

The duo contrasts British and American comedy styles, noting Pete’s frustration with what he perceives as the British tendency towards intellectual and rhetorical humor: "A lot of British comedy can be very sort of intellectual and rhetorically" (17:23). Skyler agrees, highlighting the importance of relatability and the differing value systems that influence comedic expression on either side of the Atlantic.

5. Improv vs. Stand-Up: Quality and Audience Engagement

Skyler and Pete delve into the differences between improv and stand-up comedy. Skyler emphasizes that "If bad improv, I think, is a little bit worse" (25:12), explaining that poorly executed improv can feel disjointed and less engaging compared to the more controlled environment of stand-up. They discuss the challenges comedians face in maintaining audience interest and the importance of refining their craft to avoid sounding forced or unnatural.

6. Personal Trauma and Family Dynamics

One of the most poignant segments involves Skyler sharing his experiences with adoption and strained familial relationships. He recounts his tumultuous relationship with his adoptive father, marked by conflict and manipulation: "How do you feel about it now?" (96:30) Pete empathizes, acknowledging the deep emotional scars such dynamics can leave.

Skyler reflects, "When I was starting, I weirdly didn't think I was gonna talk about race at all" (67:24), discussing how his background as an adoptee raised by white parents in a Mormon household has influenced his perspective and comedic material. They explore the complexities of race, identity, and the burden of representing one's community in the public eye.

7. The Impact of Social Media and Short-Form Content

The conversation returns to the influence of social media on comedy, with Skyler lamenting the shift towards short-form content: "I don't want to be a clip factory" (27:51). He argues that the demand for quick, viral clips discourages comedians from developing their full range, ultimately diminishing the quality of their performances. Pete concurs, stressing the importance of long-form engagement for true creative expression and personal growth.

8. Spirituality, Psychedelics, and Self-Discovery

Skyler touches on his spiritual journey and the role psychedelics have played in shaping his worldview: "I became spiritual because... the things you kind of see and feel on psychedelics... really shifts your perception of reality" (110:36). He critiques how spirituality can sometimes serve as an escape from confronting systemic issues, echoing his earlier sentiments about avoiding accountability through lifestyle choices.

9. The System and Metaphors for Resistance

Using metaphors, Pete and Skyler discuss resistance against oppressive systems. Skyler describes it as "a supermarket filled with prizes that the system put in" (56:01), illustrating how societal structures lure individuals into conforming behaviors. They debate the effectiveness of simply going along versus actively building alternative spaces that reject mainstream norms.

10. Navigating Identity and Authenticity in Comedy

The duo explores the challenges of maintaining authenticity while navigating multiple identities. Skyler shares his struggle with imposter syndrome and the pressure to code-switch, saying, "I have to code switch... when I’m writing a joke, I go, this is like how it would feel to say it to a black audience" (53:35). This constant adjustment can lead to a fragmented sense of self, complicating both personal relationships and public personas.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates in a heartfelt exchange about the intersection of personal trauma, identity, and creative expression. Skyler and Pete underscore the importance of authenticity and the need for comedians to navigate their personal histories while engaging with broader societal issues. Their conversation emphasizes the delicate balance between self-expression and audience perception, highlighting the evolving landscape of comedy in the digital age.

Notable Quotes:

• Skyler Higley: "I am a vegan, first and foremost, because it upsets my parents." (01:38)
• Skyler Higley: "There’s a hypervigilance where you’re having a thought and then you’re thinking of how the thought might be perceived by you, but also the audience." (05:45)
• Pete Holmes: "Comedy is so subjective that you're like, oh, yeah, show the shirt." (07:43)
• Skyler Higley: "I have to code switch... when I’m writing a joke, I go, this is like how it would feel to say it to a black audience." (53:35)
• Skyler Higley: "I don't want to be a clip factory." (27:51)

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Timestamp Reference Guide:

• [00:00-00:15] Introduction and Episode Setup
• [01:38] Veganism Revelation
• [02:32] Perception of Reading
• [05:45] Hypervigilance in Comedy
• [07:43] Subjectivity in Comedy
• [17:23] British vs. American Comedy
• [25:12] Improv vs. Stand-Up
• [67:24] Adoption and Race
• [92:05] System and Supermarket Metaphor
• [96:30] Identity and Authenticity
• [110:36] Spirituality and Psychedelics

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Final Thoughts

This episode of You Made It Weird offers a profound exploration of how personal experiences, especially those related to adoption and race, shape one’s identity and creative output. Skyler Higley and Pete Holmes provide listeners with an honest and introspective look into the challenges comedians face in balancing authenticity with audience expectations in an increasingly digital and fragmented world.

Transcript

[A]

You made it with. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it with. Yes, you made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening, weirdos? This is Skyler Higley, who, if you don't know, you're about to find out, is one of the funniest comedians. I love him. He's incredible. He's a wonderful writer. He's written for Conan. I believe he won an award. Let me see. He won a WGA award while on staff at Conan. He's currently writing for the Onion. He's also working on After Midnight, which is where I see him most often. We work together whenever I'm on that show. And I also hosted his New Faces at Just for Laughs. He's an incredible comedian. Conan agrees. Says he makes him laugh so hard. Skyler makes me laugh so hard. And he has an incredible, incredible story. So I'm so glad you guys are here to check out Skyler Higley. And not too much to plug up top before we just jump right in. I do have some shows coming up. I'll just say the cities. Seattle, I think that's pretty much sold out. Portland is sold out. Eugene is sold out. That's really great. Thank you, everybody. We just added looks like Atlanta at Helium, Los Angeles for my monthly show here at Largo, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Vancouver, and Austin, Texas. Go to peteholmes.com for tickets to all of those. And in the meantime, enjoy my chat with my wonderful, my wonderful friend. My wonderful friend, Skyler Hegley. Get into it. Can I say something I said to Val on the ride? Down I go. It's time to be honest. I am a vegan, first and foremost, because it upsets my parents.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Like, that's the number one reason. And that's. That's the first step towards, like, stop trying to fix people. Get real about your shit. Even your good shit is still shit.

[A]

It's still 100%.

[B]

I'm still in the mire of shit. Like, I think I love animals, and I do, but let's be real, right? I really love confusing and upsetting my parents.

[A]

Well, it's also like, I got to write that down. No, you must go on. I need that made me think of. Yeah, no, I'm going to pitch everything to you and you just write it down if you want. I. It is like this thing I had a realization of a while ago where I'm like, am I, am I. Am I smart and do I like reading or do I just like that the idea that people See me as somebody who reads.

[B]

Can you tell me, sky, is there anything better than being caught reading? It's the opposite of being caught masturbating.

[A]

You know what? And the ideal conditions are the same.

[B]

Alone.

[A]

Alone.

[B]

Reclined.

[A]

Getting into it.

[B]

Pantless.

[A]

Not understanding what's happening.

[B]

Expanding your mind.

[A]

Getting into some new shit I never would have thought I'd be into before.

[B]

The foot can be on the back of my knee somehow. Wait, that was too practical.

[A]

You know, when you ever. You know, when you come to the.

[B]

Table of contents, I jizz at the index so hard. It's hard to wait till the index. But I will.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's better if you wait.

[A]

The acknowledgment of the dedication don't come during the dedication. Who's Janice?

[B]

Who is that sexy lady? You know, she's good. Because when you're reading, she can look like whatever you want. You ever read a book and you have an image and then they start describing them and you're like, fuck you, man.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

I had her my way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or him. I had him my way.

[A]

I don't read a lot of like, novels and fiction anymore.

[B]

What are you reading? What are you reading?

[A]

I'm reading, like, I just gotta. See, now we're doing exactly the thing that I was self aware about.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

I was talking about reading. I don't know why I'm like, so, like.

[B]

Yes, he's the best.

[A]

Oh, he thinks he's. Anyway, how old are you? 28.

[B]

You need to be telling everyone to read about you. Yeah, I'm saying it.

[A]

All right?

[B]

And yes, it's cause you're black.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

LeVar Burton. LeVar Burton, the people.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

We need it, Skyler.

[A]

Yeah, we need it. All right, so hey, y'all, Butterfly in the sky, you know, reading rainbow.

[B]

I can fly twice as high.

[A]

Twice as high. I just got a James Baldwin book.

[B]

Oh, man, everyone's got to own one. Reading. It's the Pickle.

[A]

Yeah, I've read. I read every time.

[B]

Oh, you've read some.

[A]

I've read some. Okay, good for you. It's very good.

[B]

And well, anytime you hear him, you're just like. Yeah, it's like the most stirring content. It's stupid to call it content.

[A]

No, it's content.

[B]

He was like stirring ideas.

[A]

He posted his clips. Cause he didn't do crowd work, Pete. He just did speeches. He was like, tattoo.

[B]

How many times I wanted to put my Instagram bio 100% crowd work free. But I realize what a fucking Privileged place, that is. That's why I don't do it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because my people, the standups. We need to be posting. Be posting.

[A]

We need to post your people as opposed to my people.

[B]

No, our people.

[A]

Our people.

[B]

This can't be racially tense. This.

[A]

Well, you can't. You already. You went, you're black and you read.

[B]

Well, I wanted to show my hand and say, in case you're wondering, let's not waste time wondering.

[A]

I didn't think it.

[B]

Your blackness informed my riff on LeVar Burton, or I would have said it anyway. But I wanted to go, like, just so you know, I'm aware that you're black. And I'm saying you're like this other black guy.

[A]

Clip that I'm aware.

[B]

This is the clip. This is the clip.

[A]

Clip that. Clip that I don't like. To your point. I do not like how self aware I am about reading. No. Reading and everything. Everything has become so self aware now. And everything is so like, I know exactly. I'm aware that I'm being observed. And now it's like, oh, well, now I'm thinking about that instead of this room.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The hype. We were talking about hypervigilance. There's a hypervigilance where you're having a thought and then you're thinking of how the thought might be perceived by you, but also the audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're like, well, let me get ahead of that. Sure. We're like little politicians. We're like. And I understand, like, we want to, like, we want everyone to be like, this is good person. This is.

[A]

Well, you also. It's also like, are you. Is. Are these people approaching me in good faith? Because I don't know. And sometimes you're in a. And it's. Especially now with comedy. You're in this place where it's like, people come to see you, they know you. People don't usually know me when they come to see me, so I can't get away with saying, like, there's more hedging that I have to do where I go, look, I'm not saying this because you don't know who I am.

[B]

Describing the first 15 years.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Maybe 10:15, but like so much of early comedy. And when did you start?

[A]

I started in 2016.

[B]

Okay, so you're still in your first 10.

[A]

First 10, I'm getting into. This is eight. Is eight.

[B]

Wow. But to be eight in and like nine jobs and you're so funny.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Thank you for the respect.

[B]

So you're like an old eight. Yeah, old eight.

[A]

I'm an old. I would say I'm an old eight.

[B]

Dude. Sometimes you see someone's like, in 20s and you're like, well, this dude's more like a eight.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And you're like an eight.

[A]

It feels like an. Yeah. Like, part of it for me now is that it feels like right in the middle of my career in doing standup, everything changed. Like, right in the middle. Four years in 2020. And then suddenly everything's different now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so now there's a whole new world of ethics and ideas to navigate.

[B]

Which is what you were starting to talk about. The hyper vigilance. Yeah.

[A]

And it's. Now I'm vigilant about how I'm coming across and who is going to see it and who cares. And also that it's like, comedy is so subjective that you're like, oh, yeah, show the shirt.

[B]

Got it. Got it. I feel like that's the way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, now I feel like I'm seducing you, but.

[A]

Oh, no, it's fine. I was seduced.

[B]

There's a fire.

[A]

I was seduced of the fire. Next time, James Baldwin. Oh, circle back. Yeah. I can do something.

[B]

You do. Callbacks.

[A]

People don't care about anymore because of the Internet. Everything's 30 seconds.

[B]

Don Glover.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because of the Internet.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Did you read that screenplay, by the way?

[B]

Which one?

[A]

The screenplay that he wrote with the album.

[B]

What?

[A]

You want to get into this? This is one of my. Look at me, look at me.

[B]

Tell me what I'm looking at.

[A]

He. Because the Internet, that album. He also released a screenplay that goes along with it that like, describes the story of the album and it's like a precursor to Atlanta. Like that stylistic writing that he does. It was a big deal. If you were a black suburban kid in 2013, you loved that shit.

[B]

You know, I wasn't.

[A]

I. Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

I. I don't take any of those.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except suburban.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But even then I was urban.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2013.

[A]

I understand Herb, anyway.

[B]

You smoke herb.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So already.

[B]

Already you were on something good, though. You were talking about James Baldwin and reading, but you were also talking about. Oh, dude, I had something for you.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Just to interject. But it also get you back on track. You're on any track you want. But this track was interesting. You got disrupted four years in.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And, dude, not to say everything needs to be the way I was, but I like the way I was how my soil was in comedy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Meaning the crop of people that I came up with. And you know what we had in common? We were doing it about three years when 911 happened. Oh, shit. Not that Covid or 911 are here to help the artists. Obviously not.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

See, that's the hyper vigilance.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So those things are tragedies. And there's something about, like, this, like, global thing. And 911 was less global. But change the world, that adds urgency to the artists and adds like a sort of like, we might die to the artists. You tell me that.

[A]

No, I wasn't even framing it like that. I was sort of thinking about how sort of the. The economics of it and sort of the value system with social media and everything and the TikTok. It just. I think it really fundamentally changes, like, the art form when it's like, it's being. Yeah. It's inter. It's. What is the thing? It's like being distributed by this platform instead of. It's weird.

[B]

The medium has changed.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like the. Yeah. The medium is what the art is. So you're gonna get a bunch of people who see it in one way or another, and they're not engaging with it live like this. They're engaging with it from behind a screen. And then we also. My friend made this point that now we don't just see stuff, we also see the thing and the comment at the same time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that changes your interpretation of what it is.

[B]

This is to make a comment. Yeah. I will comment on this.

[A]

Before you even have formed a comment, there's a comment for you from someone else and you don't. How do you know what you think anymore? Where. It's like. The first thing I saw was this.

[B]

I completely agree. So there's this study and you're a reader. I think about it all the time. When it comes to politics, when it comes to the Internet, when it comes to Donald Glover's 2013 script, which you read. Which I read because I was a black team growing up in the suburbs.

[A]

100%.

[B]

But there's. Tell me, tell me this doesn't just resonate real big.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Real big. Real bigly. They bring in 10 people into a room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They show them an image. It's not the first test. Let's say it's the third test. So everyone's warm. There's a line, and then there's another line that's shorter than the second line. So it's just two lines. Line A is this Long line. B is this long line.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They ask the group which line is longer. You're number 10 in the study. Everyone is a plant except number 10. You're the only real test subject.

[A]

Oh, I know where this is going.

[B]

1 through 9 all say they're the same length. Dude, it's like high 80s. 90% of the 10th person say it's the same.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even though it's clearly shorter. It's like group thing. So to your comment, to your point, it's like, we're so susceptible, we think we're not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But advertising that study, I think political, religious identities, we're all spending a lot of our life going like, no, that line is the same as day line.

[A]

And you know what's really funny, because you bring up identity. I love the idea of what. How identity factors into that study where if I'm in the room with nine white people and nine white people are being like, this line is longer than this line. I'm like, white people be crazy. You know, white people be thinking lines are longer than they are, et cetera.

[B]

Whereas, like, you look at my hand, it's up like church. Because that's blowing my mind.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're absolutely right. The next variable is what are the other nine people?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think in the study it's assumed that they're peers, meaning they're like the 10th person. Right. You can't be the outlier. You have to see yourself as them. But I'm the same way. If it was all old people, you're like, they're wrong. I'd be like, these old people are wrong. And I'm young and I'm okay with.

[A]

They can't see well.

[B]

Yeah, but if they're all like, you know, whatever, If I can see myself in them, then I might feel that pressure.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But we're back to my veganism. Like, I love outlying. Like, I love, like, being healthy during the holidays. Because it's just another way to be like, oh.

[A]

Cause you. Fuck you. I'm not going to eat that shit that you eat.

[B]

Oh, I don't have cookies.

[A]

You like.

[B]

Yeah, but it's not about the cookies. It's not about my health. It's about you.

[A]

That's what I'm not gonna eat the cheese. I'm gonna eat the worst cheese.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

It tastes weird, the vegan cheese. Yeah, it's weird. It's got a viscousness to it.

[B]

Oh, veg cheese is the worst.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't get me started on vegan cheese.

[A]

That is interesting. But it is, you know, like a trauma response to whatever. Whatever feeling you have about eating. You're like, I. It feels like, oh, yeah, I have evolved and I have advanced. And that's, I think, why. I think that informs a good amount of what I do. Like, I completely agree with you. Yes. Why do you think. Why are we doing Stand Up?

[B]

You know, I have a line where I say, you think I'd be doing this if, you know, if my mom knew how old I was? That's the line, is I go, I don't know how old my mom is? And I go, it goes both ways. You think I'd be doing this for a living if my mom knew how old I was? And it gets a laugh. And sometimes it gets, like, sad sounds. I'm like, no, no, no. It all. It all worked out.

[A]

I hate the sad sound.

[B]

We don't need the sad sound.

[A]

I've done a good amount of it because I talk about, you know, being adopted, raised Mormon, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all of that stuff that. There's a good amount of stuff that historically has gotten that sad sound thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you go, oh, that's really sort of the opposite of a laugh.

[B]

I'm tell you something.

[A]

That'll go away.

[B]

I know, but it's not even. It' it's better than that'll go away. That is where it's kind of the point is. Maybe that'll go away, but I think it's better because I was watching the. The clip of you at the stand.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And I said to Katie, Katie will vouch. He'll believe me. I go, man, starting on Stand up is rough. Here's why. It's a great set. They only laugh at the tens. When you kind of, like, get more of your fans there, they'll laugh at the sixes. And by the way, you should laugh at a six. It's a six.

[A]

What is this clip at the stand? I don't even know this one.

[B]

It's the one you're represent.

[A]

Oh, my fucking go.

[B]

All right, I'll give you an example. You. You have a line where you go, my father is white. When I was 15, he kicked me out of the house. He goes, that means my dad is so white, he gentrified his own house. They don't really laugh at that.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Then they laugh when you go, I checked. There's a Whole Foods where my bedroom used to be. They laugh at that. That's the 10.

[A]

Yeah, but, guys, the one. The one leading up to It.

[B]

I might even call that an eight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they don't. And that really brought me back. And I'm really just trying to compliment you. Thank you. Don't drop those lines. It's just. What? I'm not giving you advice. You don't need my advice. I'm just saying it just is. What comedy is at the beginning is they only laugh at the tens.

[A]

Right. I complete. Yes. And I think that is good because then you write more. That is higher.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I will have my own thing, like justifying and, like, you know, saving myself. The set that must have been sent to you had to have been from, like, four years ago.

[B]

If you didn't speak defensively about it, I'd say, what's wrong with you?

[A]

Five years ago, I'm like, that. What? I'm like, the st. When the was. The last time I was at the st, it would have been.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

New York comedy festival in 2019.

[B]

No, it's an old clip. It's an old clip, but to your point.

[A]

Well, now I know to talk to somebody about something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You can say, stop sending that clip. I thought it was a great clip. I actually don't think you need to change the clip. But. But. And as a comedian, you know, I'm 20.

[A]

I'm 28 now. And now I would have been 20 for then. That's. I.

[B]

That's absurd.

[A]

I feel differently. It. That's a big changes in both your personality and as a person and the way you want to perform comedy. You know what I mean?

[B]

Totally. The other thing. And I think this is the other side of that Good point you just made. Comedy should suck. It should be like swinging three baseball bats at the beginning, because then when you get one baseball bat, you're real fast. But, like, when you get really big. Now they laugh at the threes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And now you suck.

[A]

Yeah. And then you start threes only.

[B]

You only do threes.

[A]

Or, like, the way these. I mean, whoever. My feeling about a lot of British comedy is the way that they're like threes all the way through, and they're like, oh, they're all proud of their threes.

[B]

What am I. What am I agreeing with right now? I'm just helping me agree because I want to.

[A]

To me, for an American ear and audience, I'm dying. I think that a lot of British comedy can be very sort of intellectual and rhetorically. Whatever.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the punchline will be like, okay. And then a lot of times there is this sort of celebration that they do or there's like a smugness about the way they're doing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Comedy. And it's like, okay, that was, I guess, pretty good for all the people who came to see you. But it's not. It's not actually making me laugh and it's not fun for me to watch. But it is what they value over there. So we're talking about different value systems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just saying, to me, that's ain't funny to me.

[B]

Right. There is a different style. I'll agree with that for sure. And that is why, look, I'm sure I have blind spots. I'm positive of it. But when I do a club. I was just in Raleigh. I know at least 20%, it's great. I know at least 20% are people that are just kind of like giving it a shot.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Maybe they are fans, but they're fans of not my stand up. So they're just kind of coming in cold.

[A]

That's good, though.

[B]

That is.

[A]

You want that?

[B]

You want it.

[A]

That's granola in your yogurt or whatever.

[B]

It absolutely is granola in my yogurt. And if you go out and it's just fans and now you're the threes guy. Yeah. Or maybe you could even. I think I know what you're trying to. What you are saying about the British thing. It's the way that they love puns because puns are like the fencing of comedy. There's like a very on guard quality. And I've got you, but you don't actually hit them, but you go like, oh, points.

[A]

Oh, I've been gotten. Yeah, I've been.

[B]

That's where I would slice you.

[A]

The Cheerio Chat.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Imagine if I was savage and I actually got you.

[A]

Imagine if I was a savage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like those Def Jam savages.

[B]

Oh, my God. Not what I meant. But there's your clip. Just clip every time. It's a little dicey.

[A]

No, I mean, like, that is their version of, you know what.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, I do understand what it is. But then again, to the subjectivity of audience and comedy, there is a whole. If they would potentially see the. The crowd that likes that would see, let's say, a death jam on the other end of the spectrum, stylistically, and go. What the hell is I. There's not. There's nothing here that really resonates with me at all.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it is all about the audience and how they're receiving it, which is why I get very frustrated at this idea that we have learned of, like, this objectivity in comedy, and funny is funny and whatever, where it's like, on a technical level, there are certain things that are better, but it's. I think it's just so clear from the way we live in even a different country and this nation that it's insane to be like, you should be able to kill anywhere. What? You don't even want to be around people from anywhere. You don't even want to. Like, the election. I never want to hear after, like, the election of people being like, we live in completely different realities. Someone go, oh, well, funny is just funny. And it's like, you know, it's not.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's nothing is nothing is nothing. There is no standard.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You're absolutely right. No, I really relate to that. And maybe you've heard me say this before, but I bombed in Germantown, Wisconsin. I shouldn't say that it was Germantown, Wisconsin, but I think it was Germantown, Wisconsin. But it was a bad crowd. I'm not saying Germantown, Wisconsin's bad. I'm just saying we had a bad show in Germantown, Wisconsin. And Jim Gaffigan also did badly. He was the headliner. He didn't. He didn't bomb. But neither of us felt good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I remember the Middle did really well, and he was pretty bad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Jim said to me, I'm feeling like shit. And I'm kind of curious how he feels. You know what I mean? Like, we both just did badly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I thought we were supposed to be able to kill anywhere. And he just goes, you shouldn't kill for everyone.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, no. He goes, I'm sorry. He goes, there's some crowds you shouldn't kill for.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

And I was like, whoa. Never thought of that.

[A]

If you killed for them, like, what does that mean about you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I could have gone out and juggle dildos, and it would have been incredible. Maybe.

[A]

And you know what? People are doing that now. That's what people do.

[B]

These clowns?

[A]

Yeah, these clowns. These clowns.

[B]

Which clowns?

[A]

The. The clowning community of L. A.

[B]

There's a clowning community. He literally.

[A]

Oh, my. Katie knows they're clowns, and they do. They just kind of do bullshit. They just kind of do bullshit. And they go, this is comedy. Right. Because it's funny that I'm even doing the bullshit. And it's.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The worst thing I've ever seen.

[B]

Oh, my God. Really? I can't wait.

[A]

I mean, I know there's good I know it's. There's good of it, you know, like with everything. There's the good top of it that people talk about. Chad Damiani, I think his name is. And Natalie P. Something Palamides.

[B]

And then Natalie Palamides, doesn't she do that character?

[A]

Yeah, it's like character stuff, clown work kind of stuff. And. But then that's become sort of a new comedy wave in a way. And my interpretation of it is that it's a lot of just like theater kids that aren't funny enough to ever write anything, doing a lot of random physical comedy and weird bits that aren't grounded in anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I personally hate it.

[B]

I. The reason I said yeah was because I'm like, that's always been. I don't want to be the old guy here. But I'm like, yeah, that sounds a lot like it's funny. I was going to say the far alt. No, but it is far.

[A]

Right. It's. The far is a political spectrum. It is far alt. It is a far alt movement and they're ruining all. They're ruining all.

[B]

Well, they can give all the bad name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there comes a time and believe me, there's some far alts that I've seen in my life. They were literally geniuses. But then there's a fine line between Charlie Kaufman.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm sorry, Andy Kaufman. And like somebody who, I don't know, just maybe shouldn't be there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know how to say it.

[A]

And as with anything, right. There's the top version of it and what is good. And then there is sort of the rest of everything that's around and you know, what exactly is the best and the rest of it. But when some, you know, experiencing a bad improv show and the same with this bad stand up show. It's excruciating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, this is CIA level torture. How could I even. Why are we here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because it's just. Because it's cornier. Because people are just up there just kind of make it if it's not going well and I'm pretending to juggle dildos and there's not even dildos there and I'm doing object work and it's perfect. But then everybody's just like sitting there in like silence. It's like, yeah, what are we doing?

[B]

Bombing at least a stand up. I'll say this, a bombing stand up at least isn't pretending to be opening cupboards while you know what I mean? Right.

[A]

You're like watching someone play pretend.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I've done enough improv that I can say stuff like this.

[B]

I think improv, when it's fantastic, is really untouchable.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

If you're in the room and you're watching it, it's like a magic spell. It's like seeing a flying saucer land. It's something that. That's why it doesn't really translate to TV very well. And bad improv, I think, is a little bit worse. Is. Is worse. Here's why. Because bad stand up. It's just one mind. Just can't find it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not there. And maybe they're sweating and they're uncomfortable and you hate it. But bad improv is like, there's five of them and none of them.

[A]

You as a group couldn't do this.

[B]

You couldn't do it as a group. Like, you're in a scene and it sucks. And the guy comes in and goes like, I'm Wilford Brimley.

[A]

Oh, no. And it still doesn't work.

[B]

Or better. It's worse because you added Wil.

[A]

Like, now I like Wilford Brimley less. I hate Wilford Brimley now because of you. You're ruining my reality with this fake word.

[B]

Brim. Brimley. Wilford Brimley. Never thought of his name being Brimley before. So anyway, you're right that the British style and Def Jam do like. Like a hoity toity, I suppose, would say. And then the Def Jam. I remember the first time I saw Def Jam. It's so honest, it can be kind of blunt. That's where you get the, like, Victorian heavens. Yeah. I mean, imagine it.

[A]

You know, the reason why this came up is because last night, for no reason at all, I just put on an old Martin Lawrence special.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It was like, oh, God, I don't even remember what it's called.

[B]

You gotta wipe away from the pussy.

[A]

I mean, it might have. I didn't watch the whole thing.

[B]

I'm old enough now that I am. Like, come on.

[A]

No, there's some. That's great in there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

[A]

He was talking about Rodney King and said like, they whooped his. And it was just the way he was saying it where they, like, they didn't just whoop his ass, they whizzes up his ass. And it was just like. So like. It's just the way he performed. It's. It's.

[B]

They whiz.

[A]

He just like added extra syllables to whooped his ass in A way that is like, very simple but also very, you know, it was just the. A lot of it, I will say doesn't hold up to me.

[B]

Like. Sure.

[A]

From what I watched, obviously, this was like 1990 or 80s or something. It was like, yeah, this is not quite right. Something that I'm gonna consider good now. But what is in there and like the style of it and being like, this is a version as legitimate as any other version of comedy and would be rewarded in different ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is, you know, it's an interesting factor to me when now pursuing it, where you have to build, like, okay, what am I going to do going forward and how am I going to be. And I think that there is a. There is a thing that's happened because of social media that people have stopped trying to get better. Like, like actually better at the craft of it.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's all like, they just want to be good enough to get clips.

[A]

Ye, exactly.

[B]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[A]

And you.

[B]

It podcast too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if we just bullshit for 90 minutes, we'll probably get one clip. It's like just making clips.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, I don't want to be a clip factory. No, no, no, that's. I don't. I never got into this. So I can be like, oh, I can. You are basically an employee for Big Tech now as a creative.

[B]

You're exactly right. You're selling ads for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At that point. And really, it's short. It's short money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can get clips. I can go viral. Well, you know what really struck me? I'm such an old person. But I was talking about. This is a couple weeks ago, I went on Instagram reels for the first time. And I've told this story before, but I'll make it quick. I was crying, laughing. Imagine if you've never seen any of those kinds of jokes. It's your first time seeing like, I think you should leave. Like, what? With like a different caption.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So it's all new to me and I'm dying. I don't even realize. Some of it's hackers, some of it. It stolen or whatever. But then like, and I've told this before, but I saw Arnold Schwarzenegger singing Bone Thunks in Harmony. And it was. I think it was AI. It might have been a great impression or it might have been AI. I don't know. But here's the point. I loved that more than anything I've ever seen. When judgment comes for you. I was dying Right. Don't know who made it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who posted it? I think they were just reposting. You know, they put themselves in the corner being like, check this out. Right? No one's getting the following. No one's getting the fan. No one's getting the credit. There's no name attached to it. I'm not buying a ticket. I'm not seeing you in town. It's nothing you made. I don't know what you made. You made like a tile in a mall. That's what you made. I walk on you on my way to a store. And the store makes the money.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You make nothing. So the long money is to, you know, get good at stand up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like I was gonna make a big point.

[A]

The long money is no, but also get better.

[B]

You know, Right.

[A]

To me, what you were also saying is moving with, you know, creative intent.

[B]

But judgment comes for you. Mr. Mr. Everybody.

[A]

Yeah. Keep going. No do Crossroads.

[B]

I miss my Uncle Charles, y'all. What it did was wrong.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not even going to do it. I'm not. I know I'm. No, because I know I'm not going to nail it.

[B]

Everybody.

[A]

I can't. I would love to commit to this bit with you. I would love to commit to Arnold Schwarzenegger's Bone Thugs. I would. I would. But I know I'm not going to nail it. And, you know, you go.

[B]

No, to my point. Katie, can you look up who did that the first time just so we can give them credit?

[A]

I'm so sorry to no good to.

[B]

Ask you with that, but someone thought of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What would be the funniest song for Schwarzenegger to sing?

[A]

I.

[B]

Was that okay?

[A]

I did a similar point.

[B]

Because I was interrupting.

[A]

No, no. I forgot what the point was. We both have adhd. Of course. I'll get back to it. You know what? It's something I talk about all the time. And I'll get back to it. I remember it. I made a similar video. That was Cat Williams's Daniel Plainview.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Because I. I.

[B]

Wait, it was AI.

[A]

No, no. I just did it. And because I thought. Because I don't. I. Why? Why would we.

[B]

So that's my point. You can't find it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You can't find it. It's. It's. You just wrote it on a piece of paper and put it in a tornado.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's gone.

[A]

And that's why I don't want to do. Like, when I came out and was like, you can make this person do this. And it's like, that can be funny. But it's also like, okay, well, this makes it irrelevant to. Not to do an impression for how. How close you sound to the person. The. What I would like. And the reason why I would still watch an impressionist on SNL or something or somebody who's doing an impression like that is like the art of you being able to do that.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I don't care. Yeah. A computer can do anything. I do not give a shit.

[B]

Val did an impression. Oh. Of a five year old. We know. On the way down. And when she did it, first it was perfect and we cried. Then she did it again and I literally. We laughed. It was like. It's veering into caricature. But I still love it.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

But like, that was. Human beings have an analysis. We all have it. My mom has it. An engine that when she hears an impression goes, is it real? Is it good? Where is it? Oh, it's getting a little wobbly. It's like watching a basketball go around the rim and then it goes in. That's the throw. A computer being like, perfect, like, hey, cool, My Schwarzenegger isn't as good as that AI Schwarzenegger. But you can tell it's me and you can tell it's a guy trying, and then there's a thrill when I accidentally nail it.

[A]

Right. Well, it's like a painting. As in like, you know, hugging the Joker.

[B]

Yeah, there it is.

[A]

You could have just like mocked up a Photoshop of that happening and it being like a thing and it's like, okay, well, there's that. You could have AI'd that. Well, there's that image.

[B]

Who? Why?

[A]

I don't give a shit.

[B]

I'm trying to teach this to my daughter. Well, does this come up, like, how to do.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

Is how.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

This is the painting we're talking about. The making of this painting was the joy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I like when I made this. The quiet and the detail. And it's not perfect, but it's.

[A]

It's mine.

[B]

Dang it.

[A]

Yeah, but it's also. It's also very good. It's. It's artistic, you know, there's at least an interpolation of what is the world. And then that. That came through me and then now goes out to everybody else.

[B]

But if I typed into, you know, mid Journey or whatever, Batman hugging the Joker, it would do a perfect one.

[A]

It's not about seeing Batman hugging the Joker. It's about making Batman hugging the Joker and then sharing that and. And the connection that it creates between humans to share something that was made.

[B]

That, I would say is also the point of comedy. I agree. I've said this a million times, but I'm gonna have a bad set if I'm like, how do I open? What do I say? And you go, like, everything is an excuse to hang out is one way to put it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, to be together. I would say everything is an excuse to, like, love, meaning, like, to see ourselves in each other. Like, to come together is another way to put it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, like, this podcast is an excuse to do it. We know each other would never have a meal. Stand up is an excuse for all these strangers to get together and merge and all that stuff. And it feels fantastic, right? And art. I've been telling this to my daughter because we'll be coloring something, and I can see that she's rushing, and it's really hard to teach my daughter. She doesn't want to be taught directly. So I'll just kind of, like, say, like, you know, one of the things I like about drawing is how I feel while I'm drawing. Like, I'm not trying to finish. I like that it's quiet. I like that I can focus on something and kind of disappear while I'm doing it. But I couldn't tell her that. But that's the point. Like, we could have a machine do it. But, like, when you're doing it, who are you and where are you and how do you feel? And then when I look at that painting, I'm remembering how I felt when I made it. And when we see the brushstrokes of an artist, we get a sense of how they were feeling and how they evoke that in you.

[A]

I remember the first time I did acid in the woods. Nice. Yeah. Up your alley, of course. What?

[B]

Tim Robinson.

[A]

Oh, what. What is acid? The first time I did it, I remember my friends started, like, playing music on the guitar. And I remember while I was painting, something like, I. In my brain, I also don't know how this connects to what we were saying before, but in my brain, I was like, this somehow, this blue that I'm painting, what this is right now is the same thing as that note that he's playing. These are the same thing.

[B]

Skyler.

[A]

You know what I mean, Peter? You know what I mean, Guy? Yeah.

[B]

What you're saying, unfortunately, I think, is in the category of the most interesting thing that very few people are interested in.

[A]

And you know what? That's where my comedy has always suffered.

[B]

That'S been my problem. No, I say this all the time. Why do you have to be stoned for that to be interesting? But I am not stoned, and I find that deeply interesting. The idea that the blue of your paintbrush is the same as a music note is. Is what I would call the great mystery. The great truth is that, like, a sound is made of the knowing of the sound, and a sensation, like rubbing my fingers together, is made of the knowing of the sensation. So they are the same thing. Seeing is made of the knowing of seeing, and hearing is made of the. So you could say they're both experiencing and they're both modulations of consciousness. One is a color, one is a sound. But the epiphany that those are the same thing is literally what you would say if you were doing an impression of, like, an unstable person or a prophet.

[A]

Yeah. It really just depends on how showered they are, I think.

[B]

Yeah. How dirty are their shoes?

[A]

How dirty are they? And then we'll find out if someone's real crisp. And then they say that you go, I think you got it. Probably Jesus. Like, that's why Terrence Howard's getting away with all his math stuff.

[B]

Because he looks fantastic. Yeah.

[A]

Because he's rich. You can make new math if you're rich. Sorry, what were you saying about Jesus?

[B]

What you already said about Terrence Howard, actually, is because I think Rob Bell wrote this interesting book where he was like, there were people. There were systems in place to take care of holy people. Meaning someone paid Jesus's bills. Like, the people with him, like the disciples and the women that were.

[A]

Jesus did, like, sponsorship.

[B]

No, no, no. I mean, they handled his affairs. Like everyone has stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wish I could summarize this better. I just remember reading a chapter called who Paid Jesus's Bills?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I've never thought of the financials of Jesus before, and now I'm really like.

[B]

Well, there's other examples.

[A]

There's like, did he have to do, like, corporates? You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, to make money.

[A]

Make a lot of money.

[B]

Sermon on the Mount.

[A]

He's like, I kind of did that. I wanted to. Okay. You know, if you have bread, you can multiply the bread. If you.

[B]

Oh, people are bringing in rolls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prodigal son.

[A]

Do that one trick where you make him see again. Do that one trick.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Do you ever think Jesus was, like, preaching and he was like, this. This one sucks. Like, he wasn't in it where he's, like, bombing. Can I say Jesus ever Bomb the.

[B]

Way that I think of Jesus. See, people do fully God with Jesus a lot, which is the, the, I would say the shortcoming of the way I was raised. Jesus just became Superman. I mean, Clark, Kentucky, like Superman, Superman, totally perfect. Born perfect, never sinned, never doubted. Nothing. No transformation. He was just a straight line. He was born and he stayed there. And I'm like, what a bummer. Yeah, I really. And this makes my Jesus so much more. I was going to say delectable, but like enjoyable. Amazing is that there were, I'm sure there were sermons where he was just sort of like, they were not vibing.

[A]

Didn't really. People were like, that was Jesus kind of overrated. He's everywhere right now. The industry loves him. He's nothing. There's a dude going, jesus, you guys, I traveled all the way from Nicaea for this and now, God damn. I got a babysitter. I got a babysitter and Jesus just bombed.

[B]

I got a babysitter and Jesus did not have it. He had food poisoning. Yeah, like, he just wasn't feeling it.

[A]

Didn't have it that day.

[B]

This episode is brought to us by our friends at Living Libations. If you listen to the show, you hear me talk about living libations all the time and it's no surprise I'm mindful about what I put in my body. Try to be careful about that. But I wasn't always careful about what I was putting on my body. That meant using health and beauty products that weren't good, filled with toxicity levels never intended for humans, of course. That stuff gets in your skin, gets in your blood, gets in your body. So enter living libations to fix all of that. They make high end, wonderful gift, by the way, for the holiday season here that we're in. Wonderful gift. They make high end, badass, effective products with ingredients that you can pronounce, recognize and are safe for your body. And they work. It's the most effective skin care I found for hair, eyes, teeth, even baby care products, even sunblock, everything you need. This is a wonderful way to support the show, but it's also the most natural. That doesn't mean it's like weak or middle of the road. It's badass, effective, powerful stuff like their exfoliant that they make you recognize all the ingredients and it is the grittiest, most effective, most exfoliating exfoliant. Never said exfoliant so much that I've ever used in my life. I love their love. Best skin ever face moisturizer. Love the sun, sunblock, anything you have in your medicine cabinet. Living Libations has a premium and natural replacement for it. It's a wonderful way to support the show. Get something small, get something big, get something for someone you love. 15% off by going to livinglibations.com weird that's livinglibations.com weird makes a great gift. Also, you guys know I'm obsessed with my immunity with gut health as well as fitness, endurance, metabolism as well as hair and skin radiance. And I recently discovered one product that does all of those things, that handles all of those things and it couldn't be easier. Talking about Armor Colostrum. Colostrum is the first nutrition we receive in life and it contains all of the essential nutrients our bodies need to thrive. Talking about reactivating hair growth and glowing skin, talking about igniting your metabolism and fortifying gut health so you feel less bloated, that's the first thing I noticed. As well as fueling your fitness performance and recovery and stabilizing your blood sugar and accelerating fat burning, Colostrum is an armor. Colostrum is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses over 400 living bioactive nutrients that rebuild the barriers of your body and fuel cellular health for a host of research backed health benefits. It's flavorless, it's easy to take. Sometimes I just throw it straight in my mouth and wash it down with water. I also like the packets they make. Blood orange is my favorite flavored armor. It's wholly natural, sustainable and was developed with the highest integrity grass fed in the US and they guarantee the highest potency and bioavailability of any Colostrum on the market. You can work it out with a special deal. 15% off your first order. Go to tryarma.com weird or enter weird at checkout for 15% off. That's T R Y A R M R A dot com weird. Back to the show. I feel this way about my own life sometimes when I'm suffering or struggling or doubting or just like kind of being a crispy bitch, like I hate everybody or I'm depressed or whatever it might be, it doesn't always work. But I go like, yeah, and what good are you if you never feel that way?

[A]

Okay, what good is that?

[B]

Dude, if you come to me, you're my friend and you say I feel depressed and I'm just like, just try.

[A]

To make a list of sunshine things to fix it.

[B]

Rainbows. Like you want someone that goes like, I get it. Yeah, it's fucking nuts.

[A]

And, yeah, it's a lot of that now. And it's. I think that.

[B]

Wait, what's a lot of what?

[A]

Just people being like, I get it because it sucks. Because it does suck a lot for a lot of people right now. But it's like, so, you know, it. It's hard to then go, like, eventually you do have to climb out of that, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And is that kind of like, is that your. Is. Are you feeling that as a young person that that's your group?

[A]

Oh, that everybody's depressed?

[B]

Well, of course. I was. What was I saying on the way down? There's something really, really funny. Val and I. Dude, tell me what. How you relate to this as a 28 year old. We were talking about the system, right? Val just got her hair.

[A]

Oh, I love talking about the system.

[B]

We're talking about the system. Val just had her hair done and she looks beautiful. And she was telling me that she noticed that some of our guy friends were treating her differently. She, like, had a very nice color and everything, so her hair looks great. And they were like, you look great, and they're giving her attention. And she was talking to another one of her girlfriends that she kind of feels like a crispy bitch, that she's like, here I am playing into the patriarchy and all that stuff. And her friend was like, yeah, but at the end of the day, it's about you. You want to game the system. You can do your hair and people will be nicer to you. This is a. This is a big one. I'm gonna give it to you in a moment.

[A]

I'm thinking, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then I was like, val, I know I'm a man and it's different, but like, I. I'm also playing the game. It's not necessarily how I look. But something that was very profound for me is when we shot at the Comedy Cellar, when we were doing Crashing. And the Comedy Cellar for a decade was this very scary place. And I wouldn't say people were mean to me, but it was kind of cold in there. Let's just say then we shoot now we've taken it over. We got tr. We got cameras on rails, and. And it's my show. And now everyone's being kind of nice. I'm not saying all of that was insincere, but I kind of felt like I had gotten a boob job. You know what I mean? So now people are kind of like, nobody was kissing my ass. I'm just saying, like, wow, boy, there's an Eminem Lyric where he goes, all of a sudden, I have some 5,000 cousins or something. So I felt like, oh. But then it made me feel kind of sad in the same way that Val's hair getting her positive treatment made her kind of feel sad and a little bit lonely and a little bit phony. But then I was like, yes, and it's just kind of what's happening. Meaning in Mario Brothers, there is a mushroom, and if you eat it, you double in size. And now I feel like people would be like, and this is fair. It's valid, but you should. I should be big in your eyes even if I don't eat the mushroom. And then someone's just like, yeah, but in this game, if you eat the mushroom, you double in size. And it's like, well, what if I don't feel like eating a mushroom? I get it. But if you eat the mushroom, you'll double in size. But I'm valuable even when I'm small. Yeah, that's true. But if a goomba hits you, you'll die. So you should eat the mushroom and you double in size. But people don't want to play the game. Did that.

[A]

That made me think a lot of things, Pete.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna unplug my mic.

[A]

First of all. First of all, I've never done this before. That's crazy. That's great. He unplugged the mic. He comes back, and he's back. No, of course. Give me a couple preaches. No, I think that it. Well, it's interesting that you go. Someone goes, I'm experiencing sort of this patriarchal male gaze situation. That. What I call the situation. Yeah. And. And then you're like, oh, yeah, that's like when I had a TV show. Because.

[B]

Facts.

[A]

Because that is. Thank you. That is something that I. Is I not. I think I know that women have to deal with all the time. And. And as you were saying, part of the game is sort of the patriarchy and the male gaze and stuff. And. And is what happening? What is happening? But what I do have to push back on is that in sort of that metaphor, we go, okay, there's this mushroom. It makes you big. You should be big, even if it's not fair. But. But we are. A lot of what we're doing now culturally, is going well, okay? So maybe there shouldn't be that mushroom that some people can get and others can't get or that you. That you need that mushroom for this to happen. And you can say, it is what it is, but that is part of the Matrix saying, well, you can't wake up from.

[B]

Why would you wake up from the perpetuating it.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Yeah, but don't.

[A]

Don't. Yeah.

[B]

Ask where the. Where the Nikes come from. Yeah, just wear them.

[A]

You can't really, like, down. It's. Or you can acknowledge it, but I think it's. It's weird to fully downplay something like that. And all, I guess in this specific scenario, all you can do is commiserate and go, damn, like, things are unfair. And let's talk about it and think about it and. And engage in having a deeper understanding of what it is to be a woman with a body in this society and how it might feel. Because, like, for the two of us, I'm assuming unless either of us transitions. That's not a joke. That's truly. Like, if we did, we would never really experience or understand that. So you have to be aware without being like, oh, I'm gonna kind of downplay this stuff and say, it is a part of the system. Because we can easily bury that. You can. You can really easily, easily move on with your day. Whereas, like, Val's going, like, yeah, I'm going through sort of an identity shift because I got a haircut because I'm feeling the perception on me shift.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That would be fucking crazy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That would be fucking crazy. And it's like, I relate to that in my ways as well, but it's still, like, not the same as, like, you know, on a physical level that you would have to deal with, knowing that this is embedded into the way people are valuing you all the time.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

That's.

[B]

And by the way, just to be clear, this is the hyper consciousness. I wasn't saying it was one for one. I was saying the lonely feeling I got when people were nice to me at the Cellar was similar to, like, upgrading my appearance.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not one for one. And it's deeply unrelatable. I don't want to concede.

[A]

No, I completely understand. I just was.

[B]

But you're.

[A]

You' I was talking about how the. Because everything is sort of hierarchy and status.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was talking. I was just.

[B]

No, this is awesome.

[A]

This is how we. I relate to that even more directly. I am. I perceive. To audiences especially, I feel like I'm a different person or a different comedian based on whether or not I'm wearing glasses to an audience.

[B]

Oh, what?

[A]

Because I wear glasses, I'm a black nerd? I don't. I can. I still am a black nerd or whatever, but I It's. There's less of a Sort of interesting.

[B]

Is that what I was noticing? That I wasn't noticing? Because I said you looked. I said crisper, I think, than when I see you.

[A]

Oh, sure. Because I do wear glasses. Wear glasses at work a lot. Because it's often like, whatever.

[B]

And then Skyler and I do After Midnight a lot.

[A]

Oh, yeah. After Midnight on cbs. Everybody watch it. Shout out Nick Spurnstein.

[B]

Edit that out.

[A]

Don't edit it out. You want to be. You want to work on After Midnight? No, I'm just kidding. I would never.

[B]

I would never. Are you kidding? I love it. Interesting. You're saying black nerd.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Sort of that social concept.

[B]

That's a great. We're having the same conversation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You take your glasses off, and now suddenly Superman. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's a weird, like, perception thing. And especially, you know, I also think this applies to women. I can only speak for myself. If you are a black person, you are put into these categories.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

That are like, oh, well, I'm gonna perceive you in a specific way based.

[B]

On not just black people, but all people. We want a category.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We love a category. But you're absolutely. I'm just. I'm saying, even from my experience, you'll go like Jordan Carlos. You go, oh, black. Kind of black nerd. Like that. When he got. The reason Jordan Carlos came to mind was he did his audition and for Montreal, and he said. I think he said something like, I'm a black nerd. I'm a dorky black guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's what he said. And that was the year he got it because he had figured out a category. I don't know, Jordan. I don't mean to be speaking out of school year, but, like, people love a category 100% and Montreal loves a category 100%. I got it when I said I'm a fun dad. That was my category.

[A]

You have to interpolate yourself to people, especially in an audience that doesn't know you. And again, you're like, well, you should see me if I'm small before I take the mushroom. But the mushroom in this scenario is being able to explain yourself in plain terms. I think the problem comes in where, like, when it comes to whiteness and blackness, there is a different perception of being able to be white in moving spaces and being black in moving spaces. That there are. There's so much more that is expected of you, I think, from quote, unquote, your own people. And then also so much more of a perception that you either have to play into or play against and be aware of it at all times.

[B]

Well, that's what Jordan's doing, isn't he? I mean, by saying, I'm a black. I'm a black nerd.

[A]

It's like a caveat. You're like, I'm a. I'm of this category.

[B]

This category.

[A]

It's like, oh, I'm black. Caveat, nerd.

[B]

Or, by the way, you know, Jordan, I'm not saying that was you selling out or anything. I'm saying that's what people kind of want.

[A]

Right. And I don't think it's stelling out. I think the difference for me, because I'm kind of working on a bit about being a black nerd, but it's also living in a post black nerd world where sort of the king of black nerds became Donald Glover in 2013, and now we're 10 years after that. And the way race relations work and how people see each other is in a lot of ways a lot better, but also a lot less simplistic. And it's. It's sort of harder to go in front of an audience and sort of interpolate yourself and know that you could be speaking to two different groups of people at the same time. In my case, it's white and black. And this runs deeper because I was adopted by white people as a baby and whatever. But then it leads to this, like, sort of bifurcated way in which I'm writing my material. Because you're like, oh, like, find your voice. And it's like, well, I have a voice, but I also have to code switch. And when I'm writing a joke, I go, this is like how it would feel to say it to a black audience. And this is how it would feel to say it to a white audience. And that doesn't. I'm not saying, oh, I've mastered that. I'm the king of that. But it's like, I know why. I know how different things sound to different people in a way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I just.

[B]

We're fascinated with that as people. That reminds me of the Departed, where they say to Leo, Leonardo DiCaprio's character, they're like, did you have two accents, two voices? Cause he was with us upper class, and then he was with the. You drop your eyes on the weekend, that sort of thing. But I've also. There's lots of examples of that. For some reason, we love the person that can code switch because they have that heightened awareness of what they're doing in each situation instead of like just being in one situation and not even knowing that they're in that situation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You had the. The contrast, I guess that helps you know yourself.

[A]

There's a lot of contrast, I just think, in knowing myself and knowing and like coming from an all white world and space and then moving to Chicago and then going and navigating more spaces that had more black people in them. Knowing that when you speak, you're like supposed to sort of. In a way, there is like a burden of like, speaking for black people in a way. If I were to get super famous and say stuff, it'd be like, okay, this is what is speaking for black people. There is that sort of thing.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Whereas, like, nobody's being like, Pete Holmes speaks for the white guys. You know, like, it's a different.

[B]

This goes back to the mushroom thing. There's something. There's a parallel to be made with the mushroom thing is there's like a. There's an unfair power that I can just be Pete.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not an entire race.

[A]

You're like, yeah, that's Rainbow Road. But it's like, yeah, but we gotta march down Rainbow Road.

[B]

You know what I mean? That's right. Here's another. I was going to put this to you about the mushroom idea. So this idea of going with the flow or just going like, the Matrix is just the matrix. It's eating the steak, going, ignorance is bliss. Right. Cypher in the Matrix, there's also something talking about short money and long money again is like, it can seem to someone like me that's going like, just keep marching. Let's drop the. The. And I don't mean protest march. I mean, like, there's a.

[A]

There's a. I'm in a protest march. I'm in a protest. Go ahead.

[B]

When. If everyone is like, so now we're literally afloat. It's like a river of people walking in one direction. And that's the patriarchy and that's all the institutionalized things that are benefiting some and impressing others. And we're just going with the flow. So I'm saying to Val, just get your hair done and people will be nicer to you. Like, let's not be a crazy thing to say. Right? No, I know, I know you never said that.

[A]

But let's just get your hair done. People be nicer to you. Smoke a cigarette.

[B]

That's actually kind of what her lady friend was saying to her was like, yeah, yeah, I didn't say that. She was saying, like, at the end of the day you're kind of like, it's self care, but it's short term self care. But like the people that break away from the group. I'm going to switch metaphors. It's like Supermarket Sweep. Remember that game Doesn't Matter or Nintendo Video Power. Any, any game show where you get to run around and grab prizes. So there's a people running around this sort of rig system grabbing prizes. And if you opt out of that system, and this is what we're seeing with some of the, like, you should, I should be powerful before I eat your mushroom. Like, why do I have to eat your mushroom? Why do I have to get my hair colored? Why do I have to have a TV show or whatever? It might to be important. So they break off. So if you're looking at that, you see people running around a supermarket filled with prizes that the system put in. Those are the available titillations. And then there's this group that from above, you're like, well, this group is just not in the supermarket getting prizes. Looks really stupid. But if that group spends enough time and ferments and organizes and strategizes and lays out their beliefs, now they build their own, a new supermarket. And that's what human beings have been doing over and over and over and over. Yes, but for the short term it looks stupid. You're like, why just get in the supermarket? I know it's not great, but just get in the supermarket. That's kind of what that idea was, which I like that we're on.

[A]

Yes. But I think the trick is, is going. Because again we start off talking about clips and all this. That is like, that is the supermarket. And then you have to go, okay, if I'm gonna do the Supermarket sweep, how am I going to do it? And am I going to do it in a way that feels good and know that I could participate in building another supermarket. And how do we make that other supermarket not. Not the same as the one that already exists. That's right, because that will happen. You know, these people who I being ex Mormon, there's these people who, if they're in it a little bit longer than me, they suddenly make their whole lives about being ex Mormon in this way that is very like, no to me, you left so that you didn't have to really be a part of that and think about it all the time. And now your whole thing is like, oh, the Mormon church does this and this and I hate this. And they're always like mad about it and they're like, railing against it. Which, I mean, they are technically. Right. But I'm also just like. Yeah, but, like, put it down. Like, you had all of this. Put it down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't get into your own world of.

[B]

Don't let raging against that machine be a way for the machine to sneak in the back door.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It still has you.

[A]

Matrix two.

[B]

Matrix two.

[A]

Because he. Remember, he gets out and they go, this was part of the Matrix the whole time of you to get out, where he talks to the guy with all the screens.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The architect.

[A]

Yeah. The arc. Yeah. The guy. I call him the guy with all the screens. He's billed, in my mind is the guy with all the screens.

[B]

It's fine. There's just a lot of issues with the second Matrix.

[A]

Well, yes, but I'm just. I'm. I don't like the movie. I'm just talking about metaphorically. Peter, have you heard of a metaphor?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, No, I got. I got lost in thinking about how that scene was.

[A]

How that.

[B]

How it's so much talking.

[A]

I only watched it once, but, yeah.

[B]

I gave it a lot of tries.

[A]

Point being.

[B]

So they were like. You were always. You're the. You're like the seventh Neo. Right. It's always been built in that somebody leave. But then they always choose, save everybody. And he chooses save Trinity.

[A]

Right. But the point being that all of the. Because we existed in a world of supermarkets and Super Marios and other super things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then we go do our own thing, and then suddenly we're building our own problematic supermarket. And I think that's what we tend to do.

[B]

It's hard to be truly free. And in a weird way, we're back to me being vegan to.

[A]

I was gonna say that.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I was gonna say that you're not free because you're, like, being like, I'm doing this.

[B]

I actually think that's exactly what we're saying with Mormonism. It's like, I'm going to be vegan to upset my parents. But in that way, I'm. By the way, I'm vegan for other reasons. But to oversimplify, in the same way I am doing it because of my parents. I'm still the result of my parents, even though I'm doing it to be free of my parents. That's not actual freedom. Actual freedom would be enjoying a delicious Arby's. Whatever they make at Arby's.

[A]

Yeah. Meat.

[B]

Triple pork meat.

[A]

Arby's. Horse meat sauce.

[B]

Or was Horse. Horse sauce.

[A]

We have the meats.

[B]

We have the meat.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

That's gross. It's so disgusting.

[A]

We have the meat.

[B]

Jesus, the meats.

[A]

Yeah, the meat. Okay, why don't just not like Arby's. Let's come eat food, Maybe something nice.

[B]

How about Arby's? It's a roast beef sandwich. You know it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know it's. Yeah, it's Arby's on your porch. Why are you acting like this? It's Arby's. Let me in. Just come on, come on, come on.

[A]

It's me, Arby's.

[B]

You know Arby's. Look at my hat.

[A]

Gotta vote the mics. Gotta bump the mics.

[B]

I got a hat.

[A]

Got a hat.

[B]

Come on. There is your clip. All right.

[A]

The whole time we're talking about freedom and then also just being like, clip.

[B]

Clip, clip, clip, clip, clip it, clip it.

[A]

Which sucks. Which I don't like. It is again, like, I got into this to be free, and now suddenly you're like this self aware. Stand up. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, no, no, you're right.

[A]

But then now suddenly it's this self. Aware. Like I'm aware of how trapped I am within an identity and a brand and a system in an industry and all this stuff. And you're like, wow, maybe I'm less free than I ever could have been psychically, especially in the world of social media.

[B]

Sorry to go back to this, but, like, go ahead. To rob an artist of the. Of the drive, of the motivation to become really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when I was starting, the difference was no clips, no nothing. Maybe you could get on a late night show, but the only thing you could do is get really good at stand up. But now you really are losing something as a young stand up. If you are rewarded with these. It reminds me of like getting someone hooked on a drug.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I get them hooked on this. Oh, you like affirmation? We have the synthetic affirmation. And I know it's maybe silly to say that stand up is a better affirmation, but there's a. There's a deeper quality to it. When you do an hour of standup with people, you've all been through something together. When someone watches, like, once a clip of mine gets a lot of views, it doesn't really do anything for me. I'm just sort of like, well, maybe more people will come to shows. That'd be nice. But like, even that. Well, I. I don't know who that gonna miss. Everybody. I don't know who that is. And they don't know who I am.

[A]

Right. Well, the thing is, I think that you can because also now I'm feeling that we're being overly Internet negative and you know, after Midnight dog. You know what I mean? But.

[B]

But Taylor even makes jokes about how she doesn't care about the Internet on the show.

[A]

She doesn't give a shit about the Internet.

[B]

It's fun.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, like, I do think that you can be creative and create things for the Internet, which I've done. You film sketches, you shoot sketches and make little bits. That is fun. But the affirmation does feel different. Yeah, it is sort of condom on, condom off, validation. You know what I mean?

[B]

I completely agree. And I'm going for the raw dog feel.

[A]

Yes, of course. Why would you not? That is what we're all going for. But I think that we can, yes. Become very addicted to that and then just go, oh well, it does become about. And of course I have enough trauma that of course I want a lot of validation. But then it becomes more about the validation than the art of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's like I want the validation of taking something that potentially traumatized me or was really bad and shitty and turning that into a joke. And then everybody laughs at it. And I expel some of what that demon is.

[B]

And they do too.

[A]

And they do too. And then it also can speak to a larger point of what we're all experiencing.

[B]

I completely agree. It's a trick. It's a benevolent trick. It's like, this will feel good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'll be get affirmation, people will laugh. But it's a trick. It's an excuse to hang out and it's an excuse to exorcise those demons. Let's go to the mid roll here because I have to pee. And I'll be right back. This almost never happens, but I had a lot to drink. I'll be right back. And for anybody that's like, oh, that's enough. After the break, let's talk about. I want to talk about Mormonism and I want to talk about your family because that sounds really, really interesting.

[A]

We'll be right back.

[B]

This episode is also brought to us by On IT and Alpha Brain. Alpha Brain is a nootropic. What does that mean? It means it's earth grown ingredients. It's not a stimulant. It's not like caffeine. It just gives your noodle, your noggin the nutrition that it needs from the earth to concentrate, to focus and to thrive. Everything that I do that's creative, I take two or three. Alpha brain 15 minutes prior I've done this for years and years and years. It is absolutely a secret weapon. Before this podcast, before I sit down to write, before I sit down to do stand up, before I stand up to do stand up. And even when I'm just going out for a party and I want to be able to access my full vocabulary and my memory, my concentration and my engagement with my brain and the power of it is an absolute secret weapon. I wish I knew about it in college. I'm so glad I know about it now. I keep it in my car. I keep it in my travel bag. I keep it in the pockets of my coats. On it. Alpha Brain is a game changer and a life changer for me. If you like 110 as much as I do, you're gonna it's gonna blow your mind. Go to onit.com weird you'll get 10 everything you see 10 off everything you see on that landing page. Oh and N-I-T.com weird support your brain. Support this show. We're also brought to us by our friends at Roosevelts. That's rsvlts. Who has time for bells? Roosevelts are the make makers of the most fun, best feeling, best fitting, best looking clothing that I have found in years. They are an apparel brand born for their passion for pop culture in Americana which means they have amazing Star Wars, Disney, Nickelodeon, Big Lebowski, the offense, this. These are statement pieces, wonderful font. They have Batman stuff too. Fun and funny and interesting shirts that get the conversation rolling. They also just make some incredibly high quality, well made, perfect fitting, perfect looking dress clothes, dress button down shirts, everything. It fits so damn nice. Moisture wicking. It's extremely breathable. It's made from Kuna Flex which is a four way stretch material. They have shirts for everyone. That means toddler youth, men, women and I'm talking about those fun patterns. Jurassic park, the office more. They even have some more laid back bespoke original designs which I love and I always wear when I do late night or stand up on television. They won't shrink or wrinkle after washing. I can attest to that. I just throw them in my carry on. It's amazing. They also have hats, bomber jackets, performance hoodies and shorts. We won't blame you if you never want to take it off. They are based out of Hoboken, New Jersey and they are bold and fun for those who dare mighty things just like their name says like Teddy Roosevelt. So if you want to get some check out RSVLTS.com. or follow them on Instagram @RSVLTS. Support your wardrobe. Support this show. Tell them we sent you at rsvlts back to the show.

[A]

When I started, I, I. I weirdly didn't think I was gonna talk about race at all. And then people found out that I was adopted and that I was raised Mormon, and they were like, like, no, you should talk about that. And I was like, why? Come on, why?

[B]

Yeah, but your first couple years, everyone. I feel like not everyone, but that's your time to pretend like you're not gonna talk about the thing.

[A]

Yeah. And then. And then everybody told me. But see, that's the thing. I think now. I think now when people start out and I did, I weirdly feel like I'm the old person now, because it's different than when I started. Significantly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. I think now when people start out, they know to talk about the thing, and they go into it. Talking about the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's weird.

[B]

I prefer it the way you did it. But that is the way that I did it. I'm also thinking of Kumail, who never talked about being from. He talked a little bit about being from Pakistan, but, like, never wanted to lean into it too much, and then ended up doing the Big Sick, a movie that was really about his experience. But I kind of think there's something right. About that. You don't want to start by being like, this is what you expect me to talk about, and I'm gonna talk about it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, then you start to feel a little boxed in. And then the problem is, I think something that I've experienced, too, is then going, like, I have even more to talk about with all this. And then also, I am a little tired of talking about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, with the Mormon stuff, I'm like, people still hear it and go, like, do stuff about that. And I am even doing a show right now that's about, like, Mormonism.

[B]

Like, a one person.

[A]

Yeah. And I did one version of it that was very rough, and I was like, you know, I'm only doing this because I thought this is what other people wanted, and I'm not as interested in it as. I shouldn't say this, like, right before I'm about to do it again, but. Yeah, but I'm like, oh, I don't know if I'm as interested in this form of this. And I was talking to my girlfriend the other day, and I was like, you know, a lot of people, and I think it might be more of a white thing. We'll Go, oh, Mormonism. And want to, like, talk about it. And I. And I'll be like, yeah, it was weird, but the weirdness of being adopted and growing up in a white household in an all white place was, I think, overwhelmingly weirder. And they intersect. It's like a phenomenal sort of intersection of like. Yeah, of course the religion itself is built around sort of white patriarchy. And so too was the city and state built around that religion and all the laws and stuff. And so that led to it being weird. But it's like, it wasn't just weird because of Mormonism. It was weird because it was.

[B]

Mormonism was also there. Mormonism was in the background. Back seat.

[A]

I mean, I think, I mean, maybe the passenger seat. You know what I mean? But like, the driver's seat was right. Just like whiteness and what. Because it's just like a very specific form of.

[B]

So you were. Both your mom and dad are white?

[A]

Yes, So I was adopted. I. I said, here's why.

[B]

I said, I just noticed in your stand up, you say white dad, but I was like, maybe his mom.

[A]

No.

[B]

Something.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

That confuses the premise or something.

[A]

I. I had white mom. I can't believe they sent you that. The oldest set in the world. Jesus Christ. You know what? What? Like, what if. What was your first. What was your first album? If someone sent that and like, Pete, this Pete Holmes guy, check him out.

[B]

You'D be like, still happens.

[A]

What the fuck?

[B]

Can I tell you something? Look, I can't stop saying this, but there's an expression. I saw it on Facebook, and my goal. I'm just kidding. Is to have it attributed to me.

[A]

I'm just kidding. Take it, Take it, take it.

[B]

I do want to take it, but I. I can't take it. It was. But I can't find it anywhere. And it was just over a picture of Snoop Dogg and it was a quote. And I've googled the quote. It's not Snoop Dogg. It's nobody from what I can tell. But the quote is, don't get upset hearing something you already knew. And isn't that good?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

My manager occasionally will send the wrong headshot, the wrong clip, the wrong bio, and you just go, like, don't get upset. You know that happens, right? It's not personal. It's just something that happens is fine.

[A]

I don't feel. It's not that. If I was.

[B]

That's not for you.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I'm not telling you that.

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm just letting you know you're not alone.

[A]

I understand. No, it happens to everybody. I think that what happens. What's happening in me is like, it gives that imposter syndrome flare up where it's like. Well, I probably know the quality of what that was. And somebody watching something from like five years ago when I'm only eight years in is a significant. Yeah, like, that's.

[B]

But I thought it was great. I really thought it was great. I know everybody. I did mention that the crowd wasn't white hot, but I thought. I thought the material was great. Anyway, whatever.

[A]

Talking about past is the past.

[B]

15 and your dad. So you're adopted. There's something like. If I was just talking to you off mic, I would say, what's the.

[A]

Off my question.

[B]

It's not a question. There's something really funny about someone adopting you, which is electing to let you into their home and then kicking you out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like your own kid. You know what I mean by that? Like your birth child. Maybe that was an accident. You know?

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, who know.

[A]

You made it.

[B]

They signed up the papers. They got them there. There you were. And then they were like, material.

[A]

I have.

[B]

What's.

[A]

That Is getting close.

[B]

Well, that's what I mean. We're very close to the nerve of the issue with that kind of grotesque wording that I just offered you. Tell me. Tell me what you.

[A]

No, but it's like. It's really like. It is. It was strange to go because they got divorced. The joke I've been doing is they go, well, marriage is just paper. And I'm like, well, I'm adopted, so our whole family is just paper. You know, it's very funny. Like, it's. It just. Yeah, it and it.

[B]

This whole family. This whole family. Trees in an accordion file.

[A]

Exactly. 100%. An agency put this together. Yeah, we had reps for our family.

[B]

We were cap.

[A]

Exactly. Wait. Damn.

[B]

It is like getting casted.

[A]

It is. I mean, look at the headshots. They go. What are the special skills? Can he drive? Is he in la?

[B]

Swimming?

[A]

You know, he don't have that.

[B]

It's because if you. If you're not laughing, it's because there's a stereotype that black people can't swim. You hear about it, guys.

[A]

There's a stereotype that black people can't swim. I learned that I didn't make it.

[B]

I learned that from Amy Schumer.

[A]

You learned it from Amy Schumer?

[B]

That's where I first heard.

[A]

She would know why I said this. Random hating.

[B]

She Said she had a joke where she goes, I'm dating a black guy. He's teaching me how to dance. I'm teaching him how to swim. That was the joke.

[A]

That's cool. That's really cool for a white person to make that joke. I'm sorry. I think I can say that. I think that I can make a criticism about that, and I think it's okay. I don't think it's fully hating on a comedian to go.

[B]

I hope this is in the wide.

[A]

Oh, I was wondering if it was supposed to be cut off.

[B]

No, no, no. I'm like, trying to touch you in different places. Yeah, yeah. No, no. Oh, my God. No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

In her. Not even in her defense, just as a point of fact. That was 20 years ago.

[A]

No, I mean, exactly, exactly.

[B]

I'm not defending. I'm just saying I'm.

[A]

I know, but I, I, this is where I will. I agree with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's like, again, things change and everything's on the record.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you tell me that now and I go, wow. And, but right. Also. Yeah. At Martin Lawrence special that I was watching, he pretty early on goes into a whole bit about getting raped in prison. And it was like, very, like. Yeah, I don't.

[B]

Is it real?

[A]

No, like, like, just if. Oh, I can't go to the. And then it's. And it's a pretty long chunk and it's just like, like, I'm just gonna wait until this is over to get to somewhere that I'm like, I don't want, I don't want any of this, you know? So it's.

[B]

Again, you had to hold your nose through like a ten minute.

[A]

Yeah, whatever.

[B]

Like, I get it, I get it. No, no, no.

[A]

You're in balance.

[B]

I'm only embarrassed that you thought I was trying to signal you off my.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Every part of me was hoping that this is in the episode. This, this body language.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Mormonism. Fifteen. They got divorced.

[A]

Yeah. So they got divorced when I was nine. And me, and, me and my adopted dad haven't really had a relationship since I was about 15 or so because we were in a dispute over a. I think it was, honestly, weirdly enough, a PlayStation 3. I had bought myself a PlayStation 3. He's like, you can't take that to your mom's house. I'm like, well, I bought it. I, like, worked to get the money to buy this, and then it was like, it just became a bigger and bigger Thing that didn't.

[B]

What was his.

[A]

His perspective on it was.

[B]

Well, I. I'm gonna need.

[A]

No, no, I'll give context.

[B]

Your family broke up because of a plus false one.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, look, give me that Sly Cooper. That's my senior dad. Yeah, it's a good system, Pete. It's a good system. I wouldn't have done it over a Wii. We weren't breaking up the damn family over a damn Nintendo WWII.

[B]

You don't PlayStation a Switch either?

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

You need premium triple PlayStation.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three iconic.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I would have done it for a two.

[B]

That's what you say when you're leaving, Dad. I would have done this for a 2.

[A]

I would have done this for the PS2. There some classic on there.

[B]

Craft Bandicoot.

[A]

I need craft bandicoot more than I need a day.

[B]

He's like, I'm going to Google that and have my feelings hurt later. So what was his perspective?

[A]

So I would work for his dad, my grandpa, and go out into, like, this piece of property, this, like, junkyard that they owned out in, like, middle of nowhere, Utah, and, like, make money for, like, painting and mowing lawns and shit like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And doing weird, odd jobs. I didn't really. It was like a thing where I wasn't fully actually needed. It was like a really old property that had burned down once, and he would pay me to do stuff, and it was like my first, like, like side gig making money for a while. And I would have, you know, regular job, inside gig and do that kind of stuff. So it was his dad. So he's like, well, you made that money through my lineage or whatever.

[B]

That's the most Mormon thing I've ever heard. But you begot that money from my seed.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So it was. So he was like, well, you can't take it over there. You earned it through my family or whatever. And I was just like, is it.

[B]

Because spite for your mom?

[A]

Yeah. 100.

[B]

Oh, he didn't want you to, like, have fun. Now I kind of understand control. He's like, I want my house to be fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you play here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't have fun at your mom's house. Exactly my dad.

[A]

And that's why I didn't pay child support. He's like, no fun over there. You don't have no money over there, but look over here, it's PlayStation. You know what I mean? It's a. It's a controlling thing. And that gives you sort of perspective on this guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was like, you know, it was the moment of like, you know, I was like, like, I remember the last like real sort of conversation that we had that wasn't like fully just shouting at each other. Because over the years there's been, you know, one or the other thing. But I was like, well, if I, if I go right. I was old enough to where first he was like, he had gotten weirder and weirder. Where I remember saying to him at one point, like, I learned the world. Child abuse. I'm like, this is child abuse. You're doing child abuse right now. Because he was like manipulative. He goes, no, you're doing adult abuse. And adults, children can abuse adults. And I'm going to call the police on you. This is what my dad said to me. My white father said this to me. And it's just like, okay, so you're a crazy person. So. Yeah, I remember that.

[B]

I don't think I've ever made this face.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, just sharing trauma and it's got to be a good bit eventually.

[B]

There's. There's zero discomfort. No, you're safe and welcome. I'm just like. The face I'm making is like shock, horror.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And also you are kind of saying it funny.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It is kind of interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Cuz it's gonna be a bit eventual. But I keep, I keep like going back.

[B]

This is an adult abuse.

[A]

This is adult abuse. You can't. What? You can't flip that around. What are you saying?

[B]

I have it written down to try it tonight.

[A]

Drugs are abusing me. What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slippery. That's all I'll say. Slippery. Yeah, keep going.

[A]

But drugs are abusing me. Exactly. It doesn't make any sense. Sense. Like whatever. Because that's what it is to be sort of a manipulative, gaslighting narcissist.

[B]

Have you seen the Sydney Poitier Guess who's Coming to Dinner clip?

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm gonna send it to you.

[A]

I'm gonna watch it.

[B]

It's one of the best things ever. If you just kind of need someone to speak up for the child, it'll make you cry and give you the chills.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I, I can't do it justice. But there's. He's. He's confronting his dad. Like, his dad is like, I gave you everything. And he's like, you're damn right you gave me everything. You should give me everything. I'm trying to do his voice and he's like, if you Walk me a thousand miles in the desert. You should walk a thousand miles more because you brought me into this world. I didn't ask to be brought. I'm your child. It's like that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if that voice is okay, but I'm trying to do it justice, and it's better at coming out of him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

How do you feel about it? I, like, speak for all black people.

[A]

What's up, y'all? I was gonna do it, too. What's up, y'all? What's up, y'all?

[B]

What's up, y'all?

[A]

What's up, y'all? Read more books.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But not in a. Not in a. Not in a Cosby, you need to read books way, but just everybody across the board should read more books. I think nobody reads anymore.

[B]

That was my Cosby. Exhale.

[A]

Well, I didn't mean to be sort of condescending to Cosby.

[B]

Sending.

[A]

There you go. And that saved it. That saved it.

[B]

All right, so your dad. We got it. We got an image. There's some trauma. There's some abuse. It's. It's getting funky. Chunky.

[A]

Yeah. So he was like, you know, I'll get out. He kicked me out one time, and he goes. And I go, you know, if I leave right now, I'm never coming back. And he was like, well, good. Last thing he said, such a hack line. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. And I remember in that moment, Peter. In that moment, I. In my mind, as I was leaving, I went, it's gonna hack. Like, literally. Literally. I was like, that's a real cliche. Like, he thought he was having, like, a moment, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm like, he's not smart enough to know that. Like, he can't stupid. Honestly. And is speaking from, like, what media has taught him to handle these.

[B]

I had it.

[A]

I was like, that's kind of. Heck, dude.

[B]

The most traumatic night of my life, which actually happened at this house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With my family. And there was a big fight. It was this explosion of all this repression. And one night, like, if you were doing it as the movie, it would be like a full moon. There was something in the air. It just came to a head.

[A]

I'm a vegan. Screaming, I'm a goddamn vegan chicken.

[B]

But it was actually kind of similar. What provoked it was like a spiritual thing. My mom was like. Cause I had a statue of Hanuman, which, again, was to upset my parents way more than it was an appreciation for Hinduism.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Literally. It did its job. It upset my mother and a statue of Jesus, and they were next to each other.

[A]

You're being a white girl that dates a black guy in college is getting involved in Hinduism. Yeah, yeah. It's Hanuman. What do you think about that? Mom, you're freaking me out.

[B]

You're freaking me out. This is Hanuman. Anyway, so there was this big explosion where I was like. The line was like, I wrote a book about it. She was like, how do those things coalesce? I was like, I wrote a book about it. And I could tell in that moment how hurt my feelings were.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That I had written my book in a large part so that my parents could read who I am, because they wouldn't listen to me for that long, but if I wrote it out, they could read it. So there's a lot of, like, hurt, wounded child in that. And we're coming back to you. But, like, in the fight that, like, ensued, I said to my dad, and it was a real. Like, the full grown person would be like, no, my feelings were hurt. That's how I feel. And I'm sorry if that's not convenient or if it's uncomfortable, but that's how I feel. I didn't do that. I went full. I'd like to think I would do that now, but I went full little boy. And I was like, I'm sorry. I was like, sorry, dad, I'm sorry. And I was really putting it on. And my dad went, love means never having to say you're sorry.

[A]

And I was like, that's crazy.

[B]

Also, it's incorrect. Love.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I believe in the movie. Yeah, yeah. But I believe in the movie. Love means never having to say you're sorry doesn't mean when you love someone, you never have to say you're sorry. Like, it's wrong. It's, like, reversed.

[A]

Who. What is that? What is this movie?

[B]

Do you know what movie that's from? I think it's just. It's Carly Simon song maybe.

[A]

It's crazy that. That. That, you know, you'd have a moment and then someone says something that's, like, written by Nora Efrot.

[B]

That's what I mean.

[A]

You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. A movie called Love Story.

[B]

Love Story.

[A]

Source novel. It's also a novel. Oh, all right.

[B]

I want to ask Chat GPT what it means, but we're getting off subject. So your dad said, don't let the door hit you in the butt.

[A]

Yeah. And I was like, okay, that's corny. And like, that's actually what he said. Yeah. So I. We just haven't really had a relationship since. And there were times in. In high school when I was like, older and older that we would sort of just be on the phone like, screaming at each other, but, like, still no real relationship.

[B]

What is the topic of contention when you were be on the phone and scream at each other?

[A]

It would be like, he wouldn't pay child support and say some really nasty, mean things to my mom. And I would find out about it and then I would call it and be like, how dare you say that you're an evil person? And don't. Because it was really horrible things to say.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And. But I also, with. At the time, I thought that was like a good thing to do. And then I also, like, with time being like, oh, I shouldn't have been in the position to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I shouldn't have been doing that at all.

[B]

Well, you're 28, so if you're anything like me, it'll be another almost 20 years when you'll start going like, wait, I shouldn't have been in that position.

[A]

No. And the whole thing that's.

[B]

I'm not saying you don't know that.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I mean, really unpacking. And maybe you'll do it now. Maybe you already did it. But, like, there's a lot of, like, why was I mom's lawyer?

[A]

Well, yes, I know that I've thought about this because I was like, doing bits about that too, because I think I've done a lot of unpacking based on the adoption thing of being like, why was I in that position? But then you got to think about it globally. Why was I in the position at all? Why was I adopted? In a way. And this is to. This is to frame it in a certain way. But I was adopted because of there was a person who couldn't afford to take care of a baby. And then there were people that were at the, you know, pre divorce at the time. Well off enough that felt like they could take it over. But then Also in the 90s, there was this wave of sort of like white liberalism that was savior complexy. And so they thought, like, with what's the Sandra Bullock movie Blindside, they thought we. We are going to. The joke I just wrote down is like, well, of course we'll take a savage and teach him the ways of man. You know, like, they thought they were going to.

[B]

That they were doing A Fair Lady. How much is of turning a scoundrel lady Into a. Like, a Fair lady. Sure is about the guy.

[A]

100%.

[B]

100%.

[A]

100% of it. And so it's like, that is.

[B]

It's another mastery over nature, right? It's like, we're gonna cut down those trees and we're gonna build schools. Is also about the guy being like, look what I have done.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So, yes, I'm hearing you.

[A]

So. And it is a function of a white supremacist system to be patriarchal, to say, I am, you know, white savior my way through this. And, oh, look, we saved this poor, poor child.

[B]

You know, this is very similar to the mushroom thing, too, because it's like, yeah, it might be a white, savory thing, but they're. They're. They're saving you.

[A]

And that's what happens when you do bits about it and just put it online. That I've had people, when I had a Comedy Central set come out, they.

[B]

That wasn't the point I was making.

[A]

No, no, no, I know, I know, but what. What I'm saying is them people will receive it and hear it like that. Where you go, you called your parents white supremacists, but they saved you. And you're being, you know, and they, like, obviously. And I've had people say, like, really vile, very specific things because they were offended by just jokes about, like, what I was saying about my parents, where it's like, well, no, I'm not saying. I'm saying it's complicated. But what I am saying is that something that I never realized growing up, which is this situation existed because there was a power differential. And then I ended up in a family where I think, even thinking about it now, I think my adopted dad wasn't even all in on doing the adoption and being that person. Like, I think, yes, there was love there. And, yes, he was, you know, a father to me at that time, but I do think that, like, now I don't consider him a father really in any way. We have it spoken, and there's no bond of blood that makes us actually family. So it's like, who is that guy? He's a landlord for a time in my child, right? My child landlord.

[B]

A deeply, psychologically, and maybe even spiritually disappointing landlord, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Like, yeah, a landlord that can give you trauma.

[B]

You got to be. Well, you don't have to do anything. But, like, our protectors want to say, like.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, when I got divorced, I go, well, she wasn't my blood. She's a breakup with Paperwork. And then you go, like. And there's another part of you that was like buying into it. I'm saying, for me, sure, well, yeah, my wife, this is my person, and she leaves, has an affair. And you. And you want to do a bit where you're like, you're just a stranger.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I remember people saying that, like, that was just someone you met in the wild.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're like, yes and no. And I've seen other people do bits about like, I grew up without a dad, but, like, I never had a dad, so who cares? Like. And it's like, yeah, but every time you went to someone else's house, they had a dad.

[A]

Right. You understood the concept of dad.

[B]

You knew dads, you heard dads on tv.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The dads and stories.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it can be tricky and, and completely understandable. And I'm not saying this is what you're doing to want to, like, dismiss it to save ourselves, but then we're vegan. Need to piss off again.

[A]

I don't think, I don't think I'm. I've dismissed it. I understand how much it has affect me. Affected me. But I, I'm thinking about it on a maybe material and. Yeah, like a material and structural level. I go. And the reason why I'm even saying this now is because it's something that I had to think about later in life. I didn't think about everything I just said about it until I was maybe 22, 23. And it was kind of a big revelation because I'm like, obviously it's true. But I had never thought about it in those terms because I was like, yeah, this is just my family. And it, it happened how it happened, but it, the reasons for it were based on, you know, race and economics and that kind of thing.

[B]

You mean that led up to the adoption in the first place? Yeah, like, it was, it was the byproduct of a. A system already in.

[A]

Of the system.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so that is why I can't ever stop thinking about the system. Because most people's home lives and their identity are not built around or the direct product of. I mean, I don't want to say most. Actually, I don't. Let me not say that I think everybody's a product of the system, but I think, oh, okay, cool. Okay, cool.

[B]

I'm clean.

[A]

Okay, good. We have the meats. Arby's.

[B]

Arby's dot com. Skyler.

[A]

Yeah. Get 20 off your Arby's at the next checkout. What was I Saying.

[B]

You were saying product of assistance.

[A]

Oh, yes. And so I've been like, kind of keenly aware of that the whole time, because I've always been, for one reason or another, alienated by the circumstance. Not always, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Through my childhood. And so then it really makes me focus on the mechanisms of why things are the way they are. And it's. I've been sort of. I've been just kind of hyper aware of that the whole time. Whereas, like.

[B]

That's like the gift, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's.

[A]

It's a gift in a. You know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I understand. It doesn't sound very convenient.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it also seems like what you. For better or worse, it's what's grown in your garden.

[A]

It's what I've built my career on.

[B]

And now you have it, and now you share it, though I consider it a gift. I thought it was very interesting in your standup when you talked about your mom, your white mom, explaining, like, civil rights and slavery and the N word. And I'd love just to, again, not to represent black people, but your experience, your emotional experience of, like, what is that like?

[A]

Well, I think that knowing it, because at the time, I'm not perceiving as this is being heard from a white narrative. Right. But I did know about it after the fact. And I also really, like. You get that narrative that, you know, in 2020 where everybody was like, like, oh, we thought Martin Luther King solved everything, and he didn't, you know, and that was like a big thing with all the protests. It was crazy for me to realize that that is the narrative that a lot of America had still, because I had progressed really far beyond that. And that was sort of what I grew up with was this sort of civil rights. Yes. But this is like. Like white liberal version of civil rights where you're like, there's struggle and all this stuff, but to know about all that and then not really have access to any black culture, really, except for what is being appropriated and assimilated through white culture is like a very weird experience of blackness because you go, okay, well, then I'm just part of a people who struggled. And I'm also different from everybody else. And that's it. And I don't know. There's only a handful of stuff that crosses over, really. And so I'm getting that. So it felt like, you don't know how weird it is at the time. I mean, the real moment that occurred.

[B]

To me now that you're saying, I'm like, yeah, didn't you didn't know that?

[A]

I didn't know it. I didn't really know. I didn't have a concept of how weirdly I grew up until I moved to Chicago. And when I, you know, I started figuring it out because people would ask more and more questions as I got older and older and, you know, 18 and 19, people were like, whatever. But when I moved to Chicago and people were like, wait, what? Like, that's a lot. You got a lot going on there. I was like, oh, yeah. Because, you know, to you, that's just, like, your story. But people are like, yeah, that's not. A lot of people have that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you're like, oh, okay. I guess that is exceptional in a way.

[B]

And then did you find, to put it just plainly, black mentors? Did you start finding some community?

[A]

Yeah, 100. I mean, it's like Chicago, obviously. Yeah. And then consuming hap. But I still have to go out of my way to, like, consume black stuff just because there was basically 18 years of not getting any of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then now going, like, consuming it and. And feeling. However I feel about it now is, well, that's.

[B]

How do you feel about it now? Because I wonder if. Because you would race so supremely. Utah. White.

[A]

Yeah. Which is a specific brand. It's the white people of white people.

[B]

That's right. Even the whites look at Utah.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Do you ever have to overcome a feeling of, like, imposter syndrome?

[A]

Oh, all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's if.

[B]

Which is absurd, of course, but, yeah.

[A]

If we're talking about, like, core, you know, wounds and stuff, that's, like, probably the main thing. That is, like, you have to, first of all, take it on the chin when somebody who is. I hate it when white people do it, but if somebody black makes a joke about me not being black, you have to just kind of whatever, you know, you could. Well, what does that mean? What does black. Whatever.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

But, yeah, like, I know it's a specific thing, and I'm a specific type of person and come from a specific place or whatever, but I still feel like I've reconciled that a lot. But at the same time, like you with your parents, it's not completely going to be. It's gonna. It's gonna take a long time of, like, figuring it out and, of course, becoming more and more grounded in myself. But you also can only be who you are. And sometimes you're like, well, who is that? And you really. I get thrown into a crisis, identity crisis sometimes but because I've done so much, like, that's what comedy has helped with a lot of.

[B]

And so comedy makes so much sense for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so glad you have it.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Because the. The code switching that you did as a child, that you've done your whole life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Looking for yourself. Stand up is a great way to, like, test and. And get feedback. Like, is this. Is this right? Is this who I am? Does it feel right when I say it? Does it feel right the way they're laughing? You know, this is only. Whenever I'm having conversations with people I can't fully relate to, I'm always worried that it sounds like I'm comparing.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

My experience. But the closest I can come to something in my own life, I just want to hear what it makes you think of is I remember when people would question my manliness, my manhood. So because I was like, why would it bother you? This isn't what I was thinking, but I was thinking, why would it bother you if a black person made fun of your blackness? Then I was like, well, when a man made fun of my manliness, I got the chills just then. It would make me so much more hurt than you'd think I should be.

[A]

Yeah, it's shame.

[B]

It's so much shame. And I remember thinking, like, but I am a man. Like, meaning we're not getting into gender politics. I'm just saying, like, this is 2000.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I'm like, I have a penis. I am a man. I remember saying to my friends, I was like. Like, it's so weird. I was writing little sayings and I probably journaled this. I was like, a man is what I am. It's not something I'm trying to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then there is a concept just, like, correct me if I'm wrong, which is like, blackness or all sorts of different cultural identities. You are black. No one's questioning that. But are you being black? Am I. Are we in the same page?

[A]

Why is that? Why is there a. And we can. Yes, you're on the same page. I also to say, oh, I'm not going to get into gender politics. And saying the most gender politics thing about being a man was hilarious. It's like, well, that is gender. That is what we are stuck with.

[B]

I see what you're saying.

[A]

There's a lot.

[B]

What I really meant was I can see that I'm not being. And I'm not making a fully fleshed out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Statement. I'm saying in 2000 I thought, I have a penis. I'm a man. That's the end of the conversation.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And we've added more nuance.

[A]

And I'm. And. And the very same way. So my skin color is dark, and therefore I am black. Okay. But then there's all of this culture, and there's all of this idea of authenticity and validity and what. What authenticity is and what it is to be valid. So is it. You know, it. Here's something that's real for me. I feel this for the wrong reasons. I think that I've internalized. I think I feel more validated by the fact in my blackness by the fact that after my parents got divorced, we were very poor for a while, me and my mom and my brother is living in an apartment, and she would just, like, put herself through nursing school and go to the hospital. That. Because I had that struggle, which I didn't really have before. Even if it was, like, suburban, it makes me feel more closer to like, oh, okay. Like, I am black because of this identity or idea that's been built up. You know what I mean?

[B]

I already mentioned Eminem. Eminem's like, yeah, but I was raised by a single mother and in poverty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And everyone's like, okay, it's kind of in the ballpark. Is that what we're saying?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so it feels like. Because there's this sort of black essentialist idea of like, well, you're this amount black. If this. And obviously that's all become very complicated and changed over time. But, like, think about the way we were talking about people of different races sort of 20 years ago, things were ghetto or not ghetto.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the way we talk about it now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it. So it's. It does feel very like. The fact that I still feel shame about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is at times, is annoying. But I know there are certain people from certain places who have different viewpoints of everything. And it's always like, well, that's just the easiest route that your brain can take is go. I can invalidate this for this reason. And I don't feel that way as much as I did five years ago, 10 years ago. The amount of shame. But I think when I first started discovering how weird I was, I felt so much shame because I was like, I. I don't relate to any people who grew up more traditionally black, really. At all. You know, and now it's like, well, I'm an adult, and I figured most of that out. But it's definitely something that can strike a Nerve in the wrong way. If I bomb. If I bomb in front of a black crowd, the way it's not the same as a normal bomb. The way it makes me feel, like, deeply like I'm in. I am inauthentic dick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they hated me because they were sort of like, you know, Kendrick style. They not like us. Who is that? Why is. And then. So I sort of do this then. And I try to do this dance of like. No. Like, I'm not that weird. I know I sound like this, but.

[B]

Also, again, I'm relating. Yes. But in Boston. If I bomb in Boston.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels. And I might be a little bit more Bostony when I'm in Boston 100%.

[A]

And you're like, I, I, I. But I just want to be accepted among people that I understand to be my people. Because it is specifically hard where you go. I've gone through this version of being alienated by white people because of the color of my skin and the racist things that happens to everybody. And then not being able to go a lot of times into a space where. Where people were like, well, yeah, you're part of us. And I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that that is fully how it is now, especially. But it is something that I had to deal with, especially in my early 20s.

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Belonging is. I'm not trying to be funny. It's a trip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so much more. It's like the father stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like. Do you claim me? Yeah, it's heavy. It's heavy.

[A]

It is heavy.

[B]

So you mentioned. Sorry.

[A]

No, go ahead. No, I didn't. I didn't have anything.

[B]

You do.

[A]

No, I just said it was heavy. I agreed with you. Okay. What's Philadelphia? Are we just start rapping.

[B]

So funny. I've always wanted to do a bit. Well, I guess I have done it where I'm like, why do the. Yeah, you're 28. Why do you know the stuff? I know. It's so weird.

[A]

Reruns. Nick at night.

[B]

No, I know why. Literally. But, like, nothing really replaced you. Tell me if I'm wrong. I'm not even doing it as a premise. I'm not doing it as a business. But I'm like, we both know Harry Potter. We both know Star Wars. We both know Marvel. It's all. It's all the same shit.

[A]

Mainstream stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I think.

[A]

I think that is. I think there was a cutoff, and I don't know where it was, but I think a lot of that's different now. Like the things that cut across do. But I, I think that like a 12 year old culture is kind of.

[B]

You know, that's interesting because we had a friendsgiving last night and one of my friend's daughters is about 12 and I know she doesn't know. Know what the I'm talking about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's not us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're not like us.

[A]

They don't like us.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

And that's true.

[B]

And it's true. So we were talking a little bit. I don't want to miss.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Oh, we only have 15 minutes. You've been a real pleasure, man.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Check out that clip of Skyler at the stand.

[A]

It's hopefully not online. Check out my Comedy Central. If you, if you do. It's on YouTube. I don't even like that I'm this insecure about this.

[B]

If you weren't this insecure, you wouldn't be funny. It's an appropriation of Jerry Seinfeld, Gary Shandling. They're like in their 40s. And Gary goes like, why am I uncomfortable at this party? And Jerry goes, if you were comfortable, you wouldn't be funny. Isn't that good?

[A]

Yeah, it's good. Talk about quote.

[B]

When you get folded into a group, comedy is another little family culture.

[A]

And that really helps.

[B]

It does help.

[A]

I mean, it could also be deeply toxic and deranged, obviously, but also it can very much.

[B]

Again, this is. This I will say to you, although I really feel like you're living one of these like presidential things. Like every year you've lived is like four years.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

I feel like I'm definitely talking to someone who knows everything. I know. So I won't phrase it as advice, but looking back, how many people were criminally insane? I can't even tell you. Like, there were just a lot of. Even not criminally insane, but you know, like just like, like unstable. There's a certain attraction. And of course there would be to get up on stage and everyone listens.

[A]

To literally the joker.

[B]

To certain. Exactly, exactly.

[A]

And a lot of these people. Yeah. Were at mics and you go, that's a, that's a crazy. But then you also just kind of were around them and you go, yeah, that's fine.

[B]

Well, there's something beautiful about that too, where you're just kind of like. And I was friends with people that you probably would have been like, stay away. And. And there's something beautiful about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We all got you took lsd. But I just wanted to know where you at, where you're at spiritually, just because it's fun. You were raised Mormon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, you know that blue is the same as the sound. That's pretty.

[A]

Blue is the same as the sound. And. And don't steal that premise. Y'all motherfuckers like blue. Y'all know that shit. Same as a sound. That's. I'm gonna do that.

[B]

I. If you did a def jam. Blue is the same as the sound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All the best things sound like absolute insanity.

[A]

It does sound well. And I do the same thing. Not to fully digress, but I do the same thing that you do where I will say a joke about. I have a joke.

[B]

Oh, no. Yeah, go ahead. I've seen you say some profound stuff on stage.

[A]

Yeah, I. I have a joke that I'm doing right now about I can't focus on. I can't get too high having sex because I. I don't want to. I can't focus on sex while I'm wondering if the universe is a simulation. Right. Right. That premise is very, like, all of this weird stuff. For whatever reason, all you have to do is say that you got high and then it works. But then if you don't say that, people are like, why is he saying that?

[B]

I'm so.

[A]

You're like, but I'm. I'm still right, right? I'm still right.

[B]

And if you said it was a daydream instead of a dream.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It suddenly. It's out of it.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

And that should be out of control.

[A]

Yeah. And that's the thing about comedy that's interesting is it's just like, you got to get as grounded as you can so that then you can get into whatever you want to say. And that is sort of the trick of it, anyway.

[B]

Yeah, that's really well put. Yeah, you're right on the.

[A]

Where I'm at now. Well, I was Mormon very much, and then I remember going, also, this podcast factors into that very much. So I should say that my intellectual transition out of Mormonism was. You know, I listened to this podcast, and then I also had the Internet, and it was like, the same time I was getting interested in comedy because of this podcast, saying so much about it and how it worked and things, and then also being like, I don't think Mormonism is. I remember the first time I heard this podcast. I was. I was a huge fan of Bo Burnham Prime Age. To be a fan of him at that time, because he was like, doing stuff. Stuff. And he came on this and he railed against religion and made these arguments for atheism that I was like, it made so much sense that it scared me that I. That I turned it off. That I was like, I was a huge fan of him. But this. Wait, like. But it made logical sense and it.

[B]

Was scary because the elevator in the Shining, it's all the blood comes on. You're like.

[A]

I was like, wait, I think he's right, but that's really scary. And I think if I'm even thinking about what the cultural moment is right now, I think people are so in their cults and camps intellectually, because that feeling is really that. That feeling of, oh, I is everything I believe and I'm wrong. That is a very uncomfortable feeling.

[B]

But rather be wrong and in a tribe or comfortable right than right.

[A]

100%. Short line, long line, long line, short line. Arby's.

[B]

Yeah. Anything.

[A]

Yeah, Just free associ words we said before. So, yeah, then I. I was atheist for a time. I came back to the podcast was. Went pretty hard atheist for a time because I'm like, none of it makes sense. And didn't go back to church after I turned 18 and was like, I'm done with all that. And then I got kind of spiritual and started doing psychedelics and have done ayahuasca quite a few times. I think I've done it like seven times.

[B]

Seven times.

[A]

What?

[B]

And this is a dumb question, but so you get a positive result out of it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it made me spiritual because, you know, the things you kind of see and feel on psychedelics and all that kind of stuff really shifts your perception of reality. And knowing that. Okay, like, maybe the narratives and stories that I have heard don't make any sense. I don't think Joseph Smith went into the woods and anybody appeared to him. I think he went into the woods and jerk off. Went in the woods to jerk off and then sort of just kind of made something up. That's what. I think that's what it was. That must have been 14 years old. He goes into the woods and then he's like, oh, God. And Jesus appeared to me. Yeah, I know it appeared to you. And it was white.

[B]

That is the funniest. Got caught masturbating.

[A]

I mean, it was God and Jesus and they were. They were here. Whatever. I found a book. You want to read my book?

[B]

You don't believe me? A whole religion covering for golden tablets. Wow, this is a rough riff. I mean, I Like it. But it's a rough road. Anyway, when I was young, I was always just like, where are the tablets? Because I wanted all that stuff to be real. And I'm just like, just show me. The tablets took him back up to heaven. There's a book that I actually liked. Well, I mean, I enjoyed it. It's called the Disappearance of the Universe. And it was supposedly told of this guy by two angels. And he would record them audio.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So they visited him and he. And he. It sort of fell apart for me because I was like, all these characters talk the same. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

They all sound like the same person anyway. But I was like. And there's always a line where he goes like, what's that?

[A]

There's no angel from Brooklyn.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I mean, come on. But there's not even like. It's all. They talk exactly the same. And they all fell apart for me in that way. No disrespect to anybody that loves that book, because some of my friends love that book. But there's always the line where it's like, and of course I destroyed the tapes.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, of course you did.

[B]

And we destroyed the tablets. Or the tablets disappeared.

[A]

I'm like, yeah, it's a lot of excuses.

[B]

Come on, guys. Yeah, keep the tablets, keep the tapes.

[A]

You gotta. You want.

[B]

You have a tape of an angel talking.

[A]

Yeah. But then of course they go, well, but you should have faith. And it's like, well, faith is just the biggest sort of manipulative tactic that you can throw on anybody.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

So after all that, I became like kind of quasi spiritual for a while, and now I'm kind of past that too, in this way that I think a lot of spirituality can be like spiritual bypass, where I. I think I just met enough of these people that were like, turned out to be bad, but were very spiritual. And I was like, oh, this is. You can use certain words, leaders or just people. You know, there are certain people who are just. They are spiritual. But then you're like, but you're. You're like actually a genuine narcissist or whatever.

[B]

And so like with comedy, spiritual leadership in particular, but also just spirituality generally speaking, has a certain appeal to the self centered. I would.

[A]

Yes. And I think that there's a lot of words that people can use that are ways to avoid sort of accountability. And I think there's. I think that the problem, by the.

[B]

Way, as somebody who struggles with being self centered.

[A]

No, I understand.

[B]

I recognize that in myself.

[A]

Well, it's interesting because it's like the. I think especially. And again, I'm suddenly self aware of how much I've brought up race. But I think it really factors into all of the stuff that I talk about. The way that, that white people have consumed spiritual messages from a sort of westernized mind. And then understanding the appeal of them can be very like, well, you haven't done any of this other work that involves what reality is and how reality works. And now you're sort of getting into like, well, we are not. We're. I'm a, I'm a spiritual being having a human experience meanwhile, you know, like hardcore racist or something like that. You know what I mean?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it can be a way to abstract some of the structural and functional and look the other way on the mushrooms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you can go, oh well, the mushrooms aren't written. No, this is real. This is just a video game. I'm just driving a car. It's like, well, there are people who are, are really suffering from stuff like that. And so I, it appeals to me less in the current moment, but I'm sort of reconnecting with some of that for a semblance of, of calm and centeredness and peace. But yeah, I guess that's where I'm at right now. It's just.

[B]

I get it, by the way, you're.

[A]

Just post, post, post, you don't need.

[B]

My seal of approval. But like, you're so right on, like, it's hard to look past that packaging. You know what I mean? The Santa Monica crystal. Kinda.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also the bypassing of like, I am God, I am the universe.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And like meanwhile.

[A]

Yes. And it's not even just like the packaging. It's just very much what I read because I got super into Alan Watts for a time. I was really into Aldous Huxley. I was really into, you know, psychedelics, that world of things. But when. And it. I am a product of my environment, then like, you know, 2016 happens and everything continues to happen and we realize that like the U.S. government is maybe even worse than we thought. And anything that you want to say, it's just like, oh yeah, there are real ways that sort of like structural oppression has happened. That when you live in sort of a white middle class world that you do not have to engage in at all, that is very present in exploiting everybody else. And I think that a lot of the spirituality stuff, those people are just like really far on, on that angle and don't engage with, like, the realities of the world. So I. I became less interested in that as I started maturing more and more because you can. Once you convince yourself you're enlightened, holy shit. You know what I mean? You can be a. You can be a complete dick, but you're like, yeah, but I stamped my enlightened card. And that was the same thing that happened in Mormonism where people would be like, well, I'm a good person because I did all the things. It's the same. Creating your own supermarket. It. That happened. Everything is recursive and loops and everything.

[B]

Well, you see that? And we don't have time to get into this. Yeah, but the. What was it sweet, Nice and quiet or whatever?

[A]

Oh, yeah, Beast. Oh, the Mother God stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Not Mother God.

[A]

No, it's not that one.

[B]

Mother God is love wins. Oh, that one was good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The Mormon one, it's called oh, sweet be sweet and.

[A]

Yeah. Something. Whatever. I know. I know what you're.

[B]

But it's using the. Like, I have achieved Mormon enlightenment and now I will have my work camp, basically, of. Of the men and horrible rape.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Basically. Anyway, I wish we had more time. I have to go. I have to go.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

I guess I think we did it. We did do it.

[A]

We did do it. Do it.

[B]

There is a feeling of like, oh, I wish we had more time. But it's also like, no, I think. But we did do it.

[A]

We did do it.

[B]

We had tons of laughs.

[A]

Tons of laughs. We touched on the stuff that I.

[B]

We were very wonderful.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Thanks, man.

[B]

Funny.

[A]

Thanks, man.

[B]

And people are going to love it.

[A]

And everybody, you know, go to. Go to Arby's.

[B]

Go to Arby's because we got the meats.

[A]

And of course, you know, we. How we have to end. Butterfly in the sky.

[B]

I can fly twice as high.

[A]

Take a look. It's in a book.

[B]

Reading Rainbow.

[A]

Reading Rainbow. Keep it crispy.

[B]

Everybody, you know what? Here. Not everybody gets one, but you get a shakti mat.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

Yeah, those are dope.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

You'll like that.

[A]

What is this? What is this?

[B]

It's like a. It's like lying on a bed of nails. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really sharp and pokey, but if you have, like, a knot in your back and you lay on it for like 10 minutes.

[A]

Nuts. So this is like, it. Because bed of nail didn't sound.

[B]

No, you're going to think I'm nuts.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

At first you're going to be. It's like cold exposure. You're going to lay on it, and you'll be like, what the. And then I swear I fall asleep every time I use it. It's awesome. They are a sponsor. It's shaktimat.com promo code. Weird. Probably, but that's for you.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Thanks. Yeah. That's not a paid promotion. That's just a gift. Whoa.

[A]

Thank you, man.

[B]

You already said it.

[A]

Yeah, I can say it again. Keep it crisp. Be normal.

[B]

What was that?

[A]

I said, keep it crispy.

[B]

Then you said something, and then I.

[A]

Said normal because we. It was the tag to the song. And then I said normal.

[B]

All right. Sydney Poitier.

[A]

Sydney Poitier.

[B]

Poitier.

[A]

Keep it Poitier.

[B]

Let me whitesplain how to say Poitier. Thanks, guys.