Steven Pressfield

Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Guest: Steven Pressfield
Date: July 26, 2023

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Brief Overview

In this deeply personal and philosophical episode, Pete Holmes sits down with acclaimed author Steven Pressfield ("The War of Art," "Government Cheese") to explore the inner battles of creativity, the forces of resistance, and the nature of fulfillment. The conversation weaves through Pressfield's journey from feeling "feckless" and lost to finding his creative voice, discusses the origins and mechanics of resistance, examines the spiritual aspects of work and purpose, and meditates on the universal desire for meaning. The episode is rich with insights, memorable moments, and a blend of humor and depth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Creativity and Resistance

• Pete shares how Pressfield’s "The War of Art" helped him overcome his own resistance with creative projects.
• Resistance is characterized as an internal, almost externalized force that sabotages our calling and keeps us from doing our work.
• Pressfield shares the origin story of how "resistance" derailed his early creative and personal life, leading him down a path of shame and blue-collar jobs before clawing his way back through writing.
  • “What does it feel like to not create? Isn’t that why you create? Because it feels better than not creating?” – Pete Holmes [13:01]
  • “I forgot even what the question was. We were talking about…what it felt like to not write. Oh. So I felt like a complete loser at that point.” – Steven Pressfield [14:52]
• Discusses how the act of not pursuing one’s calling becomes "cancerous," impacting health, mood, and sense of self.
  • “That unwritten joke goes into a bad channel inside you and becomes…cancer. It must get out. It’s like a living thing.” – Steven Pressfield [27:45]

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2. Breaking Out of "Loserdom" and the Importance of Work

• Pressfield highlights the years-long, difficult process of reclaiming his confidence and sense of purpose through writing, even when early works failed commercially.
  • “The way out of it, the way back is…through work, in my opinion. There’s magic involved, but it’s also really just that showing up every day, every day for the goddess.” – Steven Pressfield [42:27]
• Both agree on the importance of not judging daily output by its immediate quality, but by the act of showing up and trying.
  • “Did I put in the time and did I try hard? And if I did, then I pat myself on the back and say, OK, that was a good day.” – Steven Pressfield [31:54]

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3. Resistance as an Intelligent Force, Spirituality, and Ego

• The conversation delves into resistance’s almost demonic intelligence, and how it can manifest as distraction, temptation, or even "good" opportunities that are actually traps.
  • “Somehow resistance can produce in the real world a quote-unquote opportunity that is actually the death of her dream.” – Steven Pressfield [48:35]
• Pete and Steven draw parallels between resistance, the ego, spiritual traditions (including the Bhagavad Gita and A Course in Miracles), and the mythic hero’s journey.
  • “We could call that the Christ, I suppose, if that’s the Antichrist. Christ, or life, or oneness, or universe, or flow, or whatever.” – Pete Holmes [39:03]
• They discuss the drive toward wholeness and healing, referencing biblical parables (e.g., the Prodigal Son, Garden of Eden), and the way creativity is a return to divine inheritance.
  • “We have these ideas. You’re talking about the risk of no risk…there’s the risk of not risking.” – Pete Holmes [29:04]

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4. Masculinity, Femininity, and the Creative Process

• The discussion addresses how the creative struggle is often painted in masculine terms but is inherently universal—using the archetypes of the warrior and the mother.
  • “In practice, the most warrior-like individual I can think of is a mother. …What is art except bringing forth new life, right?” – Steven Pressfield [64:59]
• The duality of toughness and nurturing as complementary forces needed to face resistance.

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5. Practical Wisdom and Lessons for Creatives

• The necessity of embracing discomfort and difficult emotions as signs you’re moving towards purpose ("the law of the cold plunge").
  • “Get your whole body in it, it’s better because you get overwhelmed and your body doesn’t know where to feel pain, so you feel no pain…Get in it the whole way or it’s gonna punish you.” – Pete Holmes [68:41]
• Pressfield’s advice: Believe in the existence of a higher level (the muse, the goddess, the source of inspiration) and position yourself—through daily effort and skill—to be receptive to it.
  • “Life exists on at least two levels…our purpose…is to believe in first, believe in that other level, and then find a way to reach it.” – Steven Pressfield [89:50]
• The importance of following one’s unique calling, even if it’s not celebrated or visible to the world.
  • "Whatever that calling is, it’s unique to you and unique to me. ...It’s like we were born with it, we were born with a seed inside us." – Steven Pressfield [93:02]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creative inertia:
  “If you have a great joke on your mind and you don’t follow on, that’s not a benign action…It becomes cancer.” – Steven Pressfield [27:45]
• On spiritual resistance:
  “It’s so diabolical and so intelligent and so nuanced…It can’t just be some dumb element. It’s Voldemort.” – Steven Pressfield [37:42]
• On "good opportunities" as resistance:
  “Somehow resistance can produce in the real world a quote-unquote opportunity that is actually the death of her dream.” – Steven Pressfield [48:35]
• On masculine and feminine creative forces:
  “Male or female, we have to summon some—no bullshit—strength to face this devil, day after day after day.” – Steven Pressfield [66:28]
• On the role of work in creativity:
  “It’s not cinematic, it’s not glamorous, it’s tedious, it’s boring. It’s digging.” – Steven Pressfield [92:02]
• On finding unique purpose:
  "It’s unique to you and unique to me. ...The movie that your wife is writing is unique to her. Nobody else could do it.” – Steven Pressfield [93:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Discussing anxiety & creative discomfort:
  [07:24]–[10:21]
• Pressfield’s early struggles with writing, shame, & “loserdom”:
  [12:13]–[17:25]
• On mythic structure, Bagger Vance, and the Bhagavad Gita:
  [20:29]–[23:59]
• The nature of resistance ("the devil" vs. "the muse"):
  [35:58]–[40:03]
• The health risks of creative stagnation:
  [27:44]–[29:36]
• The cold plunge & law of embracing discomfort:
  [67:09]–[69:56]
• Societal roles, fulfillment beyond fame:
  [94:36]–[98:47]
• Parting wisdom, calling, returning what you’ve been given:
  [89:15]–[93:49]

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Tone & Language

The episode maintains an open, reflective, and occasionally playful tone. Pete blends humor with deep philosophical inquiry, matching Steven’s candid, concise, and wise delivery. Personal anecdotes, mythic references, and spiritual language abound, giving the episode a lively and authentic feel.

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Final Takeaway

Steven Pressfield and Pete Holmes offer a profound meditation on the sometimes agonizing, always mysterious process of making art and living a meaningful life. By demystifying resistance, championing patient work, and aspiring toward one's unique purpose, the conversation leaves listeners with practical wisdom and inspiration—whether their “calling” is making art, finding balance, or simply showing up for life’s deeper meaning.

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird.

[B]

You made it weird.

[A]

You made it weird. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you did.

[B]

Made it weird.

[A]

You made it weird with Pete Holmes. What's happening, weirdos? This is my chat, my conversation. Machinwag with the incredible, incredible. I don't say that lightly. Steven Pressfield, whose book, amongst others, his book the War of Art, has absolutely transformed and changed my life and countless other people and creative people who are trying to do their calling, to follow their bliss, to write that book, to write that script, to write that song, to start that physical transformation, whatever it is. Steven Pressfield wrote this book to help you get over what he calls resistance, or the resistance. It came about because I texted Ryan Holiday. I was like, I don't know what's going on, man. I've had this movie idea for almost 10 years. I just can't write it. I know it. It's outlined. I have interest. I want to do it, but I can't sit down and do it. And he said, read the War of Art. I listened to it on tape. On tape. You know what I mean? And I'm almost done with it. I mean, I read it. It's exactly the kick in the pants that I needed. The gentle, loving kick in the pants. And I'm off to the races. I'm almost done. So this is going to be a book that I've already listened to twice and I will always go back to whenever I need that boost to get it done. And if you guys have a project like that, you are going to benefit from this conversation deeply. I know I did. It's incredible. He also has a new book out called Government Cheese Govt Cheese, which is incredible. It's his memoir. I'm loving that as well. He has other books going pro, which is also incredible. Just check them out. But especially the War of Art. Give it a read. Especially if you have a project that you've wanted to get off the ground and you just couldn't. So check them out and you're going to enjoy this chat. Just a couple things to plug up top. I have some tour dates. Where am I going to be? I'm going to be. This is when I found out where I'm going to be. Denver. That's going to be awesome. St. Louis. Raleigh, North Carolina. Salt Lake City. We're adding more and more dates to PeteHomes.com I know I'm going to be coming to Indiana soon. So whenever you listen to this, just go to petehomes.com chances are I will be touring and coming to a town near you. Hope you can be there. And those of you that are new to the show, you might not know this, but we only do ads for things that I actually use and actually love. And these Pete's Picks at the top of the show are absolute OG Pete's Picks Magic Mind. You guys know I talk about Magic Mind a lot. I'm always offering it to the guests. Why? Because. Because I want them to be on their game for the show. And when I am feeling sluggish, creatively drained, a little fatigued, having a hard time thinking, focusing, dialing in. Magic Mind is a magical elixir that helps me focus better, helps you focus better on your work, be more creative and drink less coffee. Athletes have Gatorade now. Creators have Creator Aid is a mix of 12 functional ingredients including matcha newotropics that help you focus and adaptogens that help you fight off stress. So it sort of rounds the edges of your coffee so you can drink it with your coffee or by itself. It doesn't make you wired, it gets you dialed in 30% more stuff done on average. 5 to 7 hours of 30% more productivity after drinking, fighting off procrastination, brain fog, fatigue and some ADD symptoms getting you into that flow state. I love it. I find it mood elevating. I find it really really helpful when I need to dig in and do work, answer emails or write. It's incredible. And I have an amazing offer for weirdos from our friends at Magic Mind. All you have to do is go to magic mind.co/weird and use my discount code at checkout weird for limited 20% off. That's magic mind Co slash weird and use discount code weird for 20% off your first order. I swear. I swear by it and I hope you love it too. We're also brought to us by our friends at Living Libations from For years I've been mindful about what I put in my body, but a couple years ago I realized I wasn't being careful about what I put on my body. Which of course ends up in your body. I was buying shaving cream and face washes that I thought were good because they had fancy French names and sold at mall kiosks. But of course these things are filled with chemicals linked to disease and toxicity levels never intended for human skin or your body. And then I realized I want to eat food where I recognize the ingredients and I want my skin care to be the same. Enter Living Libations. Not only the best and most effective skin care Hot hair, eyes, teeth and baby care products I have found, but also the most natural. You're not making compromise. It's badass, effective, powerful stuff. And it's natural. Made exclusively with plants and oils and extracts that not only will you recognize, but you'll be able to easily pronounce. And now that it's summer, having a natural zinc based sunblock for Leela is so important and so many of the ones that I see online just aren't there. Love the sun. Sunblock not only works and lasts a really, really long time. Both the bottle lasts a long time, but also lasts on your skin a long time. We can feel great about putting it on ourselves and on our baby all summer long. So this is a great way to support the show. Get something small, get something big. Either way, you will be showing your love and your support of this show and your body. Some love as well. Go to living libations.com weird for 15 off, that's livinglibations.com weird. All right, everybody, Enjoy the wonderful chat with the wonderful Steven Pressfield. Get into it. This is from my. I had a talk show and this is what that's from. Isn't that fun?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we just, we just repurposed it. Yeah. Okay. We're rolling. There's no real formality. You can just hold it like you're eating an ice cream cone.

[B]

Okay. That's.

[A]

That's the tip.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

How are you?

[B]

I'm good. How are you, Pete? We've just met through Ryan Holiday. Yeah, we did, you know, over email.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So that's great.

[A]

He's introduced me to a lot of great authors and, and just great people. And we tend to be drawn to similar people. And he's really drawn to you. He loves you. He keeps posting about.

[B]

I love him too. Yeah, he's a great guy and he's taught me a lot. I'll tell you, for somebody that's like 40 years younger than me or whatever, isn't that annoying? Yeah, it is annoying.

[A]

When does he do all that writing? Yeah, some people just have a compulsion, it seems to me. Like I. I don't mean it like bad compulsion. I mean like, I think he's compulsed to write. Like, I don't think, you know, it's interesting reading your work. I'm reading Government Cheese right now. But also War of Art and some of your other things. It's like, what does it feel like to not write? Always comes up to me. Like, especially in Government Cheese. You know, I'm Reading what it was. I'm just making the. Sure. This is off. I'm reading what it was like before. You found your flow and found your purpose. It's really interesting to hear all the. All the shame and the guilt and the.

[B]

Did you. Were you immediately a comic, like, straight out of high school or something?

[A]

Don't you do this? Well, it's funny. I've been thinking. I'm writing a joke about anxiety right now. And the crux of it is everybody complains about too much anxiety. And I get it, but nobody's. Nobody's screaming the virtues of just the right amount of anxiety. And I want to write a joke about. I only really have the opening line as I go. I have anxiety. Thank God. I understand as a bell curve, too much is debilitating, but not enough is.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Is numb.

[B]

But I'm gonna ask you.

[A]

But that's.

[B]

I know I'm supposed to be interviewed, but.

[A]

No, it's okay.

[B]

Ask you something.

[A]

Go ahead. When you say you're writing, use a day off. You are a day off. I'm so excited to talk to you. I don't. I don't feel pressured or beholden when I have a day writing a joke. Tell me, you say.

[B]

When you say you're writing a joke.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You make it sound like it's going to take you three weeks or a month or something. I mean, is. It just. Is a joke like this joke? Will it be like a setup line and a punchline, that's the whole thing? Or will it be a whole. What will it be?

[A]

I think you could do it as well if you have an area that you are deeply passionate about. So I. When I was young, starting as a comic, I knew I had a joke when I had something clever that would literally almost like a. Like a trap you set in the woods. Like, it's a hair trigger, and you'll go in it and it'll snap and I'll close you. So an example of that would be, I bought a paper shredder. This old joke of mine, I love that my paper shredder came with a manual, because that's the first to go. That's just a joke. It gets better. After that, I go, I just plugged in the shredder, put in the manual. Like, if this doesn't shred, I'll read it. It's clever. It's a joke. That's a setup. I bought a shredder and a punchline. It's actually two lines. Anyway. Now, just like you, when I'm assuming you're thinking of things you can write about. I get a white light in my belly of, I couldn't forget this if I tried. I write it down not to remember it. I write it down to exercise it from my body. And when I go on stage, I have. Don't forget to talk about anxiety. But I didn't have to, like, try to remember I have anxiety. Thank God. That's how I feel. It's like writing the music, you know, And I go. And I can go on stage. It gets a little tricky as to whether or not I can yank. If I can fishnet the whole audience over my shoulder like Santa Claus and bring them with me on that feeling, that's where the craft comes in. But the identification of what a joke is now comes from a strong feeling, which often isn't funny. It's just a deeply excited, urgent feeling. And to answer my own question, and to put it back to you, when I don't let those things out and then share them, it feels like too much anxiety. It'll fester like a pond and get scummy and gross and unclear. But if I keep it moving and.

[B]

Pass it on, I'm definitely a believer in that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, when you were talking about I have anxiety. Thank God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That could be a book. It could be a book the size of the War of Art or something like that. 190 page.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You could do an entire thing. Really? I haven't actually done it, you know.

[A]

In defense of anxiety. Yeah.

[B]

Really? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's. I.

[B]

Well, it's a concept.

[A]

That's a very sweet. I love that compliment. And I'm like you. I want to find. I think I'm like you in that. You just did this. I want to find what the joke. Where the joke belongs the best. Like, where the idea. Excuse me. Sometimes a joke is a joke. Sometimes it's a movie, sometimes it's a book, Sometimes it's a cartoon. Like, I found. I submitted some cartoons to the New Yorker because I was like, that's. That just is a New Yorker cartoon. So you had to.

[B]

Did you get accepted?

[A]

I did. It took. It took about a year and a half. I think it's something like four or five hundred bucks per cartoon.

[B]

Why not? Yeah.

[A]

If you break it down to the time, though. Well, I guess that answers why I'm not still doing it. I think if you get on contract just because you seem like an interested person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you get a contract with them, it's more money but if you're just freelancing, it reminds me of your story. Hacking together little gigs and finding your place here and there. But. But here. Now I am going to put it to you. I told you that when I don't create and share and reflect and. And be reflected too, that, like, beautiful circle of sharing, it's not just narcissism, me saying I like anxiety. And they're just. They also feed it back to me and the feedback and the laughs and the groans and the. And. And the silence. It's this. It's this beautiful dialogue. And it makes me feel connected and alive and safe. It makes me feel safe. I go, these people understood me. So you in your book, government Cheese, G O V T. Cheese. Because the government doesn't look right.

[B]

Government spelled out.

[A]

I agree. Government.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're not here to govern the cheese. Government cheese. But you write about this. I love you use the word feckless because it's just such a great word. Because it sounds like a bad word, but it's not. Your early years, I was really struck with how many times you called yourself a loser. Because there's part of me that, like, my heart sort of connected and broke for young Stephen. And this is kind of before you found your path. Would you talk a little bit about what it feels like before you found. Look at your Zen eyes. What do you. What are you doing?

[B]

You.

[A]

You deepen your heart right now. What's happening? Yeah, go ahead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does it feel like to not create? Isn't that why you create? Because it feels better than not creating?

[B]

Let's see if I can. Let's see if I can get this right. Like, I sort of started what sort of put me on this downward spiral. This loser spiral was as a young writer, copywriter at an ad agency. As in the book. Yeah. I had a boss who wrote a novel that was a hit, an overnight hit. He became an overnight hit. Chocolate and Popsicle song, Chocolate Days, Popsicle Weeks by Ed Hannibal. You can look it up. It was a good book.

[A]

Can I also say when you said that I had a nice perspective where I was like, here you are, young Stephen, going, chocolate days and popsicle nights. Imagine if I could be the guy that wrote Chocolate Days and popsicle Nights. And here we are in 2023 going, like, what, what? And what? Like, it's so ethereal. It fades.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

It all goes away.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But okay, so I try. I said, well, how hard can it be? Yeah, let me. Let me write one too. So I just sort of totally was over my head, and the whole thing crashed. My marriage blew up. Blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Because of the book.

[B]

Because of the book, because I didn't finish the book, because I crapped out at the end, et cetera and other things.

[A]

Was writing the book Jeopardy. Because I was interested? You're very. You're almost like Hemingway. You're very tight, succinct, masculine. So you're going bang, bang, bada bang. And I couldn't finish the book. I got 99.9% of the way. And then I sabotaged myself and Leslie, and I fell apart. And I'm over here going like, I love it. I wouldn't change a thing. But now that I'm talking to you, I'm like, was it the writing of the book or was it the not finishing of the book that really fudged the point?

[B]

It was a not finishing of it. It was a sort of the failure of being a good husband, the failure of being a provider, the failure of being a man, that kind of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I forgot even what the question was. We were talking about.

[A]

We're talking about what it felt like to not write. Yeah.

[B]

Oh. So I felt like a complete loser at that point. Yeah. And. And I was, you know, in. In certainly in my wife's eyes, in my eyes and my family's eyes. And the next thing I knew, I was sort of on the road. I sort of fell out of the bottom of the middle class. And, you know, there was such a. A stink of defeat about me that, like, if I went in for a. To apply for a white collar job, you know, people would, like, get nervous just sitting across from me.

[A]

You had a vibration.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, it sounds like a joke, but it's not.

[A]

I believe in this so hard. Let's not sidetrack too much, but I just want to. Yes. And your premise, there's ruts we get into, and I like vibration because it's like the subtle way you're shaking, starts telling people, almost like a predator or almost like a sound in the woods. Like his instinctual. As those things, we go. I can't. I told my therapist that. That somebody in my family was having a hard time getting. Getting a therapist. And he was like, everyone I called would turn me down. And my therapist goes, yeah, I do that all the time. You can just tell there's something about it.

[B]

I've never thought about that. Isn't that crazy? That's true.

[A]

Isn't that crazy? I was like, I thought you had to see everybody. He's like, no, Pete, there's some people. You just go like, not me. Yeah, let's start somewhere else.

[B]

So that's where I was. That's who I was. That's the groove I was in. And so the next thing I knew, the only jobs I could get were the kind of blue collar jobs that all you have to have is a pulse. Yeah. To get the job. You know, like working in oil fields or working in a mental hospital or something.

[A]

Like the movie the Master.

[B]

No.

[A]

Thomas Anderson. Oh, God. Run.

[B]

I've heard of it. Yeah.

[A]

Good. It just reminds me of the, of the character, the lead character, Joaquin Phoenix's character is very feckless and taking these pulse jobs, like he's harvesting cabbages. And you're just like, yeah, this guy. Very lost.

[B]

That's a real world.

[A]

Yeah, very lost.

[B]

So you definitely at that time feel like a loser and everything. Can we define reinforces that.

[A]

Yeah, you're losing at Western capitalist success.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're thinking about your classmates from high school or from college or whatever, where they are, they're married, they have children, they have jobs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you don't. So. But at the same time I knew because I had. What had started this for me was not finishing a book. I knew the only way for me to get out of this is at some point I've got to sit down and write something.

[A]

Doesn't this sound like a story from the Old Testament or like a myth?

[B]

It does. It's like the Prodigal son or something like that. Right.

[A]

You know, well, you got broken and had to go back home to yourself.

[B]

But I think it's true. Really. Truly, Pete. For like everybody, I think, goes through. I'm doing a little thing on Instagram now about what I call a passage through the wilderness, which I think a lot of us have, right. We fall out of. We have a period of our lives where we're really in the wilderness. Right. We were addicted to something. We're in jail. We're just all screwed up or whatever it is. And how you come out of it is by facing whatever the demon was that put you into the wilderness in the first place. That's right. So, you know, like, if somebody wanted to be a stand up comic, but they were afraid to get on stage or. And so they went off into some other, you know, other dimension, other path of life. Yeah, they would. And they were miserable. They started drinking, etc, they whatever. Yeah, they would know, fuck, I gotta get on that stage. At some point, yes. I gotta face the music, right?

[A]

This is why.

[B]

Is there anything in. Am I ringing any kind of bells with you?

[A]

Ring all sorts of bells. Oh, absolutely. So I grew up in a household that was incredibly loud and unstable and a lot of fighting, and I hated it. And then I. And alcohol was involved. And then I got into a profession where it's my job. I was incapable of settling down. These Greek gods, these giants, fucking scary. Sitting tense meals. Then I got into a job where it's my job to go out in front of drunk people and settle them the fuck down. What is that? That's circling back to the dragon and finding incredible satisfaction out of, like, not this, dad. Not this, Mom. Fuck you. It's great. It's incredible.

[B]

So.

[A]

Absolutely. But you also rang a bell. I just. I don't. I hope you like the movie Bag of Ants. I know you wrote the book, so I'm sure you have some Stephen King shining feelings about it, but I rewatched that movie because I love that movie. I was at a great age when that movie came out, and going back to it, it was just so comforting and beautiful.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

So, yeah, I really like it.

[B]

Have you read the book?

[A]

I haven't read the book.

[B]

You should read the book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's the author telling me. No, I know. I bet. I know. I will.

[B]

From what little I know about you, the themes in there will ring.

[A]

I believe it. You're just seeing embarrassment that I haven't read it and I'm talking.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

But I've read so many of your other things.

[B]

But.

[A]

No, I will. I'm glad. I'm just. I'm just noting if you saw a little flutter in my cheeks. I'm just embarrassed. But that movie we. That story, Matt Damon's character, Juna.

[B]

Juna ran off Juno. Yeah, Juna.

[A]

They say Juna so many times in that movie. I was like, juna, Juna. There's a lot of Juna. Anyway, he also. He runs away from his calling because the war of life. And he gets into drinking. The. The war, literally. And he gets away from his calling and then he has to come back to it and he's garbage at it. But it's the. It's the pattern you're describing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Which I was totally unaware of when I was working on it.

[A]

No kidding. Tell me, what do you mean you just stumbled on it?

[B]

Well, I. You know, have you heard of. God, I'm going to get wonky here on you. But that's wonk.

[A]

It up.

[B]

Want to do.

[A]

Right, we made it weird here.

[B]

Are you familiar with the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita?

[A]

A wee bit.

[B]

So baggervance is stole the plot of the Bhagavad Gita. Which Bhagavad to get this is. I hope, our listeners, you have no idea where you are.

[A]

You're in the safest place to talk about this. So he's Arjuna.

[B]

So, yeah. Is Arjuna Bagger, Krishna And Bagger is Krishna. I mean, one of the. One of the titles of respect for Krishna, as I'm sure you know, is Bhagavan. Yeah, Bhagavan. So that becomes Bagger Vance, you know, Magavan, meaning Lord. Yeah. So the. The whole story of. Of the Gita is the great warrior Arjuna laying down his arms, refusing to fight on the eve of a great.

[A]

Battle because they're all his relatives.

[B]

All his relatives, yeah. Right. And his charioteer happens to be Krishna. That is God in human form.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so Krishna sort of. It's a mentor protege story where he sort of teaches him, you know, Arjuna about duality and non. Duality, karma, previous lives, all these great. Yeah. You know, and roles. Christian roles. Right. And obligations and etc. Etc. So Juna, our Juna, is a great warrior and his to fight.

[A]

Wait a minute. Yeah, shut the. Get down here. I'm just putting this together. His name is Judah.

[B]

In other words. That was sort of where I was coming as far as. Coming from, as far as structuring the story rather than thinking about it in that. In that other way, which I didn't think about it at all.

[A]

But you were smart enough to know that there are brilliant stories like the Prodigal Son that touch on.

[B]

I'm a believer in stealing from great stories.

[A]

Are you crazy?

[B]

Romeo and Juliet, whatever, you know, go for it.

[A]

They're doing all this great legwork for you. It's like learning from your elders. It's the same exact thing. It's not theft. It's almost out of respect.

[B]

Yeah, right. Not. It's not stealing if you put a spin on it as well.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, it used to be over there, but we got Steve Martin, all these people whose albums I absorbed. You'd be insane to think that I just went up. Yeah, talk like this. The way I'm talking to you right now. This is not how I talk. This is how I learned how to talk. By listening to people that I admired. Absolutely. That's so interesting. And I was just, by the way, talking about the. The Bhagavad Gita. Last night.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes, last night. So not 12 hours ago, my friend Genevieve was like. We were talking about Arjuna not wanting to fight in the battle and Krishna basically being like, it's the only thing to do. Like you can do it or not do it, but like, it's kind of what's happening. That's like a very, you know, silly summary, but that's very similar to the line, forgive me if you've heard that. I'm sure a billion. But just forgive me. It's the. It's the game that can't be wonder lost, but can only be played. Right? Which is, you know, where does that come from?

[B]

Is that from some.

[A]

That's in your book.

[B]

It is. Get out of here.

[A]

That's you. I quoted you to you.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Unless.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I haven't read the book.

[B]

Better than I thought. Huh?

[A]

It's in the movie. It's got to be in the book.

[B]

I don't know if it is. Anyway, maybe we'll give credit.

[A]

It's like the point of the book.

[B]

Jeremy Levin, the screenwriter.

[A]

Oh, no, edit that out. We'll give him no credit. That was you. But I feel that way. I. I've never even played golf and. But I see, you know, you're doing this, I'm doing this. It's all. It's also kind of like I was at a tea ceremony recently. Have you ever done one of those?

[B]

No, I never have. I've read about it, but never seen one or never been part of it. Me, too.

[A]

I had only heard old Alan Watts talking about how meaningful they were. And what really struck me, as we did round after round of tea, just in silence, very deliberately drinking tea, it struck me how absurd it was. And I think that might have been the point for me that day. In the same way that golf is absurd, doing this interview is.

[B]

Everything is absurd.

[A]

That's what the person said. That's what.

[B]

Life is absurd. Right?

[A]

Life is absurd. And isn't that kind of what Krishna is saying?

[B]

Yeah, like, you can do it anyway.

[A]

You can opt out, but are you really opting out? Because, like, reading your book, government cheese and all the, like, little houses that you rent on the side of the road, and there's. There's. I don't know if it's masculine, but there's a part of every man that I know that would be like, that sounds great. You know, you just go off and you live in a little cinder block house and just kind of don't fuss.

[B]

By the way, thanks for reading it. Cause you certainly didn't have to, you.

[A]

Know, I'm enjoying it.

[B]

Skimmed it or done, whatever. Thanks for reading, Stephen.

[A]

I'm enjoying the hell out of it. And you're a great writer, and I'm. It's fun to see the other side of you because we'll get to the war of art. But I was thinking about that and what a cop out that could be to, like, if Arjun decided to not fight in the war.

[B]

It's like, okay, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that was just a millisecond in the story, and you didn't do anything. It would have been better to be a villain. You know what I mean? I'm not saying we should be villains, but at least you're doing something.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[A]

You're playing the game one another. Yeah, well, that's in the. Rama is the bad guy is. Is really the good guy in disguise because he's moving the story along. And when you.

[B]

That I don't know about. You're educated.

[A]

There you go. Well, let's get Hindu, baby. When you start to see I'm talking too much. But, like, I had a conflicting morning. Like, my daughter was just stressing me out. She didn't want any of the break. I made her four breakfasts. It was in today. This morning. I was very happy to be talking with you because I was like, this is. I need that out of the house. You need another. Like, you're. You're. You have a good. I don't know how to say it, but, like, a masculine voice in my consciousness. And I was like, I want to talk to Stephen about this. But then as I was driving here, I. I was grateful for that conflict, even though, as it's happening, I'm like, this is the worst thing in the world. Because I was like, at least something's happening. And I'm more used to the listener. And I'm more used to you, honestly, because I can tell you, like, it was deeply frustrating and I, like, lost my cool. And as much as I don't want to do that, that's where my humanity is. Like Leonard Cohen, the cracks are how the light gets through. And now I'm so much more alive and present here because I failed this morning. What good is Superman? Give me Batman.

[B]

Ah, interesting.

[A]

All right, hit me with whatever that gave you, or I can take you back to the story you were telling me.

[B]

What? You just said, take me back to the story I was just telling. Whatever.

[A]

Okay, I'm going to try to calm down. I'm Talking a. And I want you to talk a lot. You. We were talking about you. What it felt like when you don't write and what. When you went from feckless to finding your voice and we were already covered, Leslie. And your. Your thing blew up.

[B]

Let me. I'll break in here, Pete, because you said something before that I think will ring bells between the two of us.

[A]

Ring it.

[B]

If you don't write. And let's use that as a metaphor for whatever. For all of the other things that people might do. If you have a great joke on your mind and you don't follow on, that's not a benign action. You know, that joke, that unwritten joke goes into a bad channel inside you and becomes. I'm absolutely convinced of this. And becomes cancer. You know, it becomes something like it's must get out. It's like a living thing. Like it. Like if we're. If we're female and we're giving birth and we're pregnant and you cross your legs. It's a living thing that inside us. Like the alien.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that got to get out. And until it gets out, nothing good happens.

[A]

We're back to rivers and ponds. Right. Flow is health, pond is not.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you're saying. And I completely agree. But for those listening, we have these ideas. You're talking about the risk of no risk. We think there's taking a risk, quitting the job, writing the book, not going to the 4th of July thing so you can sit and write or whatever it might be, but you go, that's a risk I'll miss out on. All those things, by the way, are very short term gains. I'll have a hot dog. I'll laugh with my friends.

[B]

Yeah. Not that I don't give in to plenty of those, of course.

[A]

Me too. But there's the risk of not risking. And that those, those are heavy risks. You're saying that stagnation can manifest and I would agree with this in depression and disease.

[B]

Exactly. I think it absolutely does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, and the opposite side of that is if you do follow through with the joke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Health comes, you know, something positive. Something where your feet are on the ground. Something where you feel like, oh, I'm doing what I was put here to do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I can sleep tonight, you know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Flow finding or even not flow. Even grinding it out, you know.

[A]

Well, that I like about. See, I'm one of these writers that you've helped me get more in touch with the romance or the reality maybe of. Of suffering at The. At the computer. Like, there's something that really stood out in the war of art where it's like, you. You were. I forget how long your workday. Mine is about four hours. Three, four hours.

[B]

Me too. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And I'm like, when I got nothing done, but at least I was just looking at the page and nothing got done, but you go, okay, it's two o'.

[B]

Clock.

[A]

I'm done. Was the work good? It doesn't matter. That's my impression of it doesn't matter. At least you got in there. When my wife is reading it, I don't know if you know the Enneagram, but she's an Enneagram 9. Do you know the Enneagram?

[B]

I'm actually Enneagram 9.

[A]

Get the fuck out.

[B]

Not that I know what it means. I just did it once.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

My girlfriend Diana is big into the Enneagram.

[A]

Okay, what is she?

[B]

She's done. And she's a four.

[A]

See, I'm a four and she's a nine. These are great combos. I got good, good feelings for you and your girlfriend. Wonderful pairing. So Val is nines. All you need to know is Jamaica. They're the beach people. It's not that all of Jamaica is that way, but it's like, relax. We just want no conflict, no stress. So it's very. But a nine in health is a three, which is the achiever, which is going to go out and ring the bell and prove it.

[B]

I didn't know that. I never knew that.

[A]

So you're a healthy nine, and Val is a healthy nine, but she's reading your book by my recommendation. And when I summarize it, I just go, stop being a candy ass and just get in there. So the line is, was the work good? Was it not good? It doesn't matter. You did it. That was very profound for me, which.

[B]

Actually, in many ways is sort of if. When I die, if there's any lesson that comes out of this, you know, it's so true. I mean, it really sort of saved me is like I say when I sit down and write on a day I really don't judge myself at all on, did I do anything good? Did I get 500 words or whatever? Is all I say to ask myself is, did I put in the time and did I try hard? And if I did, then I pat myself on the back and I say, okay, that was a good day.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And. And I think really, you know, I'm a believers, you know, in the muse and the Goddess. And I think that when she looks down on us, you or me or whoever, and sees us putting in the time, even if there's nothing on the page at the end of the day that counts, you know, that goes in the book. You know her book? Yeah, her book of you're a good boy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and because you were available, you tried. All you can do is try.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like you had the channel like a ham radio. Like you had it on the frequency nobody called you. Yeah, but that's on them. You were there. And then it seems to me to continue with that, the muse goes, oh, this guy's radio is open. Maybe I'll start sending him exactly some messages.

[B]

You know, they say like in, in training, in the gym, whatever it is, that not every day is going to be a good day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's, you know, in fact, it's rare when it's a good day. A lot of days are going to be shitty days. You don't really do it, but it's a day you did the day, you know, and that's all you can ask of yourself.

[A]

Can you go, did you have more?

[B]

No, that's it. I ran out of it.

[A]

No, you didn't.

[B]

That's all.

[A]

I just don't want to cut you off. I. We talk about this a lot on this podcast. I think it's this strange mechanism of this universe that just seeking pleasure and avoiding pain doesn't work. But most people, we're going back to those goals. Like, okay, I could sit and write or pursue my whatever, or go to the fourth of July barbecue. We all do, like, short term things. That's one. But we also just like, would rather avoid pain. Sitting in the chair is going to be painful. We do that more than we do to gain pleasure. I wonder what that makes you think of. But also the fact that, like, we always talk about heroin. Heroin doesn't work. Isn't that crazy? Isn't it weird that there's nothing on this planet like that that works? Meaning it will take a toll.

[B]

It's sort of a crazy. It's almost like a trick that God played on us.

[A]

That's what I mean.

[B]

Like, if it's short term satisfaction, if it's immediate gratification, it's gonna kill you, buddy. But the long term satisfaction hurts. It's painful, it's tedious, it's boring, it's not interesting, you know, but that's the only way, you know. And what. Yeah. Why did God design the world? Like that. But you know, he did.

[A]

Right. You can fight it or wonder why or you can just kind of get with the program.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, Stephen, my bad morning started last night. For some reason, I actually think I know why my wife was having Val. She just have. I was feeling her pain. She was, she was dealing with something and I was feeling it. And I had been good all week and hitting all my goal exercise and food. And I was like, fuck it, there's a peach cobbler in the fridge. And I did. I really, I'm 44. I really think that's what did it. Somebody told me about what sugar does to you hormonally. And I'm just. It's just kind of churning in my belly like a dryer all night. And then I woke up and I was just like, fuck everything. I was like. It was that like, I'm so very well.

[B]

Could be. I'll tell you why I think not even the sugar. Just the knowledge that you gave into that shit. You know.

[A]

That's right. And then I tried to exercise. Couldn't do it. It was like walking through mud. Everything was fucked because I had. And that's kind of what when you say you were a loser, which is a tricky term only mostly because Trump said it so much, but. So you were losing. You felt you weren't meeting your own goals. There's a momentum. There's a sludge momentum. And that sludge momentum, you call it resistance, seems to have a consciousness. It seems to have this weird. I don't want to get too fancy and call it demonic, but it has this like dark demonic. Yeah, you just made a face to say, go ahead. It has an antichrist. It has an anti. Energy.

[B]

You know, we're talking now about the war of Art. We're talking about the concept of. Of resistance with a capital R for our listeners. You know that that is that sort of force that radiates off a blank page or anything like that and that will sabotage us. It's the voice in our head that says, you're no good, you're unworthy, you can't really do this. Etc, Etc.

[A]

You'll lose your friends.

[B]

Yeah. You lose it. Right. Everything. Right.

[A]

They won't feed you.

[B]

They want to eat a peach cobbler or makes you want to go to the beach, you know. And yes. You know, sometimes like, you know who Seth Godin is? I'm sure I don't. You don't. Ah, Seth Godin is. He's one of. I, I of the blogs that I read. Ryan is one of them. Okay. And Seth Godin, another. Okay. He's. He was one of the first kind of Internet marketers, but he's way, way, way beyond that, a real visionary. And in. In. In business terms and creative terms. Check him out. You know Seth Godin.

[A]

How do you spell that?

[B]

G O, G O, D I N.

[A]

Okay, here it is.

[B]

And where. Where was I? Oh, yeah, he. His concept of what the. Where this resistance, this negative force comes from is the amygdala. You know, the lizard brain.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right at the. At the. That. It's.

[A]

Whatever that is. It's the oldest part of your brain, the oldest part of your first part that grew.

[B]

But I don't believe that, because unless the lizard brain is really smart, because resistance, when it produces that voice in your head that's trying to psych you out or trying to distract you, it's so diabolical and so intelligent and so nuanced.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so capable of changing shape, shifting, doing all that. It. It can't just be some dumb. No element. Like it's Voldemort and. Yeah. And I don't know to know where that comes from. Is it. It's the devil. Is it the devil? I don't know what it is, but it's for real.

[A]

Well, you okay. On this show, I. I always try to get. That's. That's just honest. I do try to get people to. Sounds manipulative, but I do. I manipulate people. I try to get them to talk about spiritual things and their spiritual beliefs. And one of the ways.

[B]

You don't have to work hard for.

[A]

Me to talk about it, but my way in is. Your way in too? Is any. They'll say, I'm an atheist. But then I'm like, well, tell me about your creative process. And they'll start talking in these terms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's really interesting. We have Voldemort resistance, this entity that's inside of us. I know that sounds really scary, but it's fine. You're. You're dealing with them constantly. So it's not exotic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not frightening. You don't have to look out for it. It's probably, you know, whispering to you as you're listening to this podcast, going like, maybe let's just watch pornography. You know what I mean? Because this is a little too challenging. But also, one of the things I love. I loved about your book that you really gave language to is the anti resistance. So we could call that the Christ, I suppose if that's the Antichrist. Christ or life or oneness or universe or flow or whatever. When you are working, and this is a phenomenon, anyone that writes certainly knows you write. And then you go for a drive or you go for a walk, and there's no effort, there's no exertion, and there's nothing conscious. You don't go, I'm going for a walk. That I might have good ideas. But it happened to me on the ride down. I was mostly driving in silence. And this fucking thing kept going. Cause I wrote that anxiety joke last night. Slept, drove, now I'm driving. And it goes. The opening line is. It says this. It goes. The opening line is anxiety. I have anxiety, thank God. And it cut whole swaths of the treaties that I had written. It's doing cuts. So you point this out, you go, what is this effortless? What? I mean, really, why aren't we all talking about this effortless program that's running in the background, that doesn't deplete your energy, doesn't even seem to be running on your energy.

[B]

It even charges your energy. Right?

[A]

It charges your energy. So it's effortless.

[B]

That's the opposite of the diabolical resistance.

[A]

Exactly. Which is why maybe Christ is a good word for it. It's like this birthing, or the muse.

[B]

If you wanted to call that.

[A]

We don't need to get Christian. Yes, yes. Muse or.

[B]

Not that I have anything against that.

[A]

The fountainhead. The spring. Yeah, it's like a spring. And the spring, just like a spring, is a naturally occurring thing. It's not being charged by engines. Nobody goes shut off. The spring, spring, spring. And now you're a spring. That's the. I'm just saying, if we're getting too dark on the resistance and scaring people, there's this counterpart that is also available to you. So we're back with you and your vibration and your loserdom. And so you were in that bad momentum, the cobbler momentum. Peach cobbler. Not a shoemaker. Your peach cobbler. Now your workout sucks. Now your job interview sucks. Now your therapist won't return your calls. So breaking out of that, and it sounds like the answer was.

[B]

I mean, for me, it was just years and years of grinding increment by increment. Like I say that. I knew I had to write my way out of it, Pete. That was like the only way, right? And so it's like, as I talk about in the book, at one point, I saved up enough money to work for a year, turned out to be two years, and finally did finish a book. Didn't, you know, didn't crap out at the end. Now, book never sold, and neither did the one after that. Never sold. But that was kind of an increment back from that loser Dom, you know, at the. So I do think a lot of the bullshit that's out there now sort of tells you, oh, you. You achieve an insight and everything is groovy from then on, but I don't think that's the truth. Like, for me, that was like two years of grinding. Grinding. It was fun, but it was grinding, grinding, grinding. In other words, for you to say to yourself, or for me to say to myself, you know, maybe I'm not as much of a loser as I thought I was. You have to actually have done some work, you know, Like, Robert Greene would say this, you know, Ryan's mentor, you know. Yeah, he did, huh? Yeah.

[A]

He's incredible.

[B]

Yeah. But he lives in Los Feliz, right? He lives right.

[A]

He walked here. Or he could have.

[B]

But in any event. Yeah, you gotta. The way out of it, the way back is. Is really through work, in my opinion. There's magic involved, but it's also really just that showing up every day. Every day for the goddess. Yeah. So. So that finally the. You know, you will get a little bit of a graduation notice, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's years and years and years, in my opinion.

[A]

It sounds. It's too trite to reduce what you just said so brilliantly into, like, fake it till you make it. But there's something about, like, work it till you jerk it, maybe something like. Right.

[B]

But of course, once you start to do. To do that, to get on that path of work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no ending point. It's not like, oh, four years from now you get a degree, you start to do this. This is the rest of your life. You know, it's just till they, you know, take you out feet first.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But that's reality. That's what we were talking about before, you know, that somehow God designed this world that you got to. You got to work, you got to.

[A]

Grind for, and you got to suffer.

[B]

I mean, it's the Garden of Eden, right? Where he casts Adam and Eve out and says, you know, henceforth. Yeah. Shalt thou eat thy bread in the sweat of thy face.

[A]

King James. Yeah. And you know what? You know what I like about the Garden of Eden is we had a hand in it. The way I interpret that story is we were perfect oneness in the garden and we elected to play a game, but it was us. An aspect Of God. Us decided to eat the apple by our choice. The snake is us too. The snake is our voice.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And it says, eat the apple. But it was us. We wanted to listen to a naughty snake. Is there anything more exciting than listening to a naughty snake? That's. We. We connect to that.

[B]

Yeah. There's.

[A]

The first time you heard that story, you. You're like, oh, I hope they eat the apple. As soon as God says, don't eat the apple, you're like, I hope they eat the apple. Because, you know, there's something in our existence right here and now. All this insanity and pain and up and down and. And all the goodness is hiding on the other side of work. We know that's what happened. Like a deal was struck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we could know pleasure. But they're like, but if you want to know pleasure, you need to know separation. Have separation. That means you have pain.

[B]

You should be a rabbi. Pete, you really got into this thing.

[A]

I'm. I'm really going for it. I'm enjoying this chat.

[B]

Let me ask you. D. Are. Are most comics or comedians. No. Going deep into like that?

[A]

I mean, I think.

[B]

I think about George Carlin or people like that, that they were, you know, they would go deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. They just wouldn't. Maybe not do it on. On stage, but jokes came from someplace deep.

[A]

For sure. I completely agree. And I. I've said there's a million. But I think it's weird that more comedians aren't interested, that they sort of stopped at. It's all bullshit. Yeah. You don't want to be at the table. But I'm like, the. The ultimate way of not being at the table is to, like, really get into it. You know what I mean? You go so far past the fundamentalist or the literalists or whatever it might be that you can't even see them in your rear view anymore, but you get all the juice that was drawing us to these things in the first place. It's confusing to me, and I appreciate you noticing. I appreciate you seeing me.

[B]

Well. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You should be a rabbi or think about it. It's not too late.

[A]

It's not too late now. There's. There's. There's. There's room for that stuff. One of the great things about podcasts, like, if Carlin had had a podcast, you would have. We would have records.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? I feel like if Bill Hicks had had a podcast, I feel like it would have saved these guys lives. Not Carlin, but. But Hicks would have thrived and flowed in a way maybe.

[B]

True. Yeah.

[A]

I think he was made to be a podcaster even more than a comedian. Like, he should have just been recording himself how he felt every day. That's how I feel. And I think the road sort of squashed him as it will. Okay, so you wrote your way out of it. We're talking about. Well, we were talking about resistance and the anti resistance. Can I give you an example of a resistance and you can comment on it?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because I don't remember this being in your book, but my wonderful wife Val is writing a movie, and it's a wonderful movie, and it's her first movie. And I think she is destined, like, her thing is to direct it. I can see, because she doesn't write like me. I mean, I'll put angle on and all these things. Like, but she's writing the music. She's saying the shots. Like, I'm like, this is not normal. This is a director. This is how Paul Thomas Anderson writes for himself. He puts in all these shot notes and stuff. You should direct it. And she's. I can see my little nine believing that. And I even imagine the. The headphones on her shoulders, and I'm like, wait a minute. I can see it. I really can. So she was working on it, and she. When she's writing, she feels alive and in the flow and exactly what you describe. And then she also teaches dance. And then this opportunity came about to possibly take over a dance studio and take.

[B]

Right, I'm smiling. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, you're smiling.

[B]

Yeah, buddy.

[A]

If we didn't go like, wait, should we do this? Like, now I'm. Instead of rehearsing. This is Val. She directed this beautiful movie called this Now. I'm going like, oh, yeah. My wife owns the dance studio in town, and it costs this much money. And there's all these, like, sort of businessy things, which I'm like, I don't think she'd like that. But she got very interested in it, and I was being supportive. And then she came to the conclusion that it was resistance, that it was another. See, this is the intelligence you're talking about.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, it will talk about that. It will come for you in these ways. It comes, like, shrouded in good news. Like good news.

[B]

You know, you're absolutely right, Pete, that that's not in the war of art, and it should have been in the war of art. Yeah. And it's so true that resistance is so diabolical, and somehow. Somehow I don't Know, has control in the world that, like, if you're on a path like, like your wife is towards the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Somehow resistance can produce in the real world a quote unquote opportunity that is actually the death of her dream. Right. If she says yes to this dance studio, that's a catastrophe, you know, And God knows how that works. It's got to be the devil. I don't know. Yeah, but you're very, You're. It's great that you're so supportive of her and that you get it and you see what, you know, her potential, that unrealized potential yet.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And yeah, but it is so true that resistance will tempt you. You know, it's like for me, I. I've worked a couple of times or maybe two or three times in advertising. Right. Which is kind of a sellout sort of a job to save money so I could go write a book. Every time I was ready to go leave, they would offer me a promotion, you know, or whatever it was before you said. And I. Who knows what is there? Like the devil putting an idea in your boss's mind. I don't know what's going on, but you always have to sort of confront that, like. Because the other thing about this, I know I'm blathering on, this is what.

[A]

I was hoping for, but these quote.

[B]

Unquote opportunities always make great sense so that if you talk to your friends who are, like, trying to wish you well ago. Oh, you know, a dance studio is really a good idea. I mean, you may make money, it's a realistic thing. And. And you in your head are going to. Should I do this? I mean, but it. It's just resistance in the end. And so diabolical.

[A]

The practicality of it is the dev. It's the details where the devil is hiding. It's like month to month, it'd be like an income coming in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, if we had this many people, it would be this. And you're just sitting writing for no one.

[B]

Like it.

[A]

It makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Here's the thing that happened to me. For whatever this is worth, this was like, I don't know how many, 10 years ago or something like that. I got an offer from the Getty Museum where they had, like, they brought in fellows or whatever it was for a particular thing anyway. They would pay you seven grand a month. They'd give you. Actually, if you wanted an apartment, they gave you an apartment. And you go up to the Getty, they gave you an office, they gave you a research Assistant. And the whole idea was, here, you can write your book here, you don't have to do anything.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And so I talked to various friends and they, oh, you got to do this. This is good for your resume. Blah, blah, blah. I took it. I hated it. It was like the worst thing I ever did. I quit. It was the day I. I said, you know, each day I go, you should be liking this, Steve. This is a golden eye. And I just, finally, I just said, this is resistance. This is driving me insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was so happy when I finally drove down a hill and never went back again.

[A]

This really synchronic, deliciously ties into what I was saying about anxiety. So my morning with my daughter put me off center. And this conversation, I can feel it as I'm talking to you. I was charged like a balloon on hair. I was charged by that conflict. And there are so many situations. And as you were talking, I was like, oh, my God, I've done things while I've had this movie idea for 10 years. I wrote you an email and I was like, the war of art. I'm like page 160 or something. It's too long. It's great. Yeah, go back and edit. I write too much. I'm like. I'm one of those people that puts in ellipses and that's the whole line. Like, does that need to be there? It doesn't. So I'll trim it down. But like, I got through it. But I'm realizing For the past 10 years, I've had this movie idea and some of the things that have fucked me up were no brainer. You have to do that. Opportunities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And as we're talking about this, I'm remembering just to give Mike a shout out. I called Mike and I was like, you know, I'm doing this thing and I. And it's. It's like a nice opportunity. And I. As I was doing it, he was like, you should do it. And then as I was doing it, I was like, you know, I haven't worked on my movie. And since I've been doing this, I thought I would because the hours were right, right, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, oh, the life would be nice now money is coming in and, like, I should be comfortable enough to work on my book. And this goes back to the anxiety we should be running towards. Dis. Ease. Not disease, but, like, we should be running towards. Well, let me something. Let me interrupt your ass.

[B]

Define anxiety for me as you mean it.

[A]

Okay, I will. And right away, something Val Says to me all the time. And she goes, fear is excitement without breath. Is something she says to me all the time. So that's what I think.

[B]

I mean, fear, huh?

[A]

It's fear.

[B]

Yeah, it's now. Would it be fear of the creative project that your. That your heart tells you you want to do? Is that so? In other words, is it resistance in one way or another?

[A]

It is, absolutely. See what's interesting, I think I'm getting into new. My resistance is getting very nuanced. I struggled through all your friends will leave you. What do you think you're better than us? I got through all of that pretty quickly thanks to an over loving mother. I was like, fuck you. I am better than all of you and I don't care about any of my friends and you can all eat my ass. Like I was like fine going off, but now I think one of the things, and this is very subtle, it goes, if you do it, what will you have to kind of like go, I could always do that. You know what I mean? Because if you do it now, it's done and there is a pleasure to.

[B]

Going, well, that's nuanced.

[A]

I could always do that. Isn't that crazy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is why it's helpful to talk about these things. Because the ego is insane. Yeah, it's insane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you let it talk to you, it goes like, don't do it.

[B]

Because you go too. Just like Ryan says, ego is the enemy. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, he does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was reading your War of Art, have you ever read A Course in Miracles? Because I was.

[B]

Oh yeah. In fact I was into it for a while.

[A]

Can I tell you?

[B]

But I couldn't get very far into it. I got to like day 27 or something like that.

[A]

Okay. Reading your book. So was War of Art before or after that? It almost doesn't.

[B]

Way after that.

[A]

Okay. Way after that you can tell. I was like, oh, this dude's read the course. Because it's so for those you don't need to know much about a course in miracles. But of Course in Miracles is like trying to teach you that there's two, two choices in your mind. And by mind it means almost more like soul. It's like you're awareness and one is the ego. You can, you can use that as your teacher or you can kind of like you could think of it as a lens. Like that can be the lens you shine your light through. Or one I think they would say is Jesus or the Holy Spirit uses Christian language. You could just say that as your higher self or your God self or whatever you want to say. And we're always alternating between these two. And its strategy, the course's strategy is to listen to the ego. It's not to whistle in the dark or spiritually bypass or even stop any behavior. It's like, just look at what you're doing and out it. Like, turn the lights on. On it and listen to it. And you'll start to put it together slowly that the ego is insane. And what does the ego say? It's never enough. It's never enough. I have to take what you have somehow. I have to. Like, I'm not saying this is how I consciously feel. I'm just saying there's part of me that's like, somehow I could take the war of art and have the love that you got for it for me. Like, there's an insane want monster in there that wants it all for them. The teacher Sadhguru says, like, even if you had the whole world, if you owned the whole world and it all came to you, how long before you'd want the moon? That's just what it does.

[B]

About a minute and a half. Yeah.

[A]

About a minute and a half.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you didn't get very far, but do you remember? Does any of that sound familiar?

[B]

You know, I hadn't seen it through that lens of the ego. I mean, the course of miracle starts, if I remember right. It starts like the first lesson is something like nothing I see is real. Right.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Nothing in this room is. Is real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And means anything means that what they say.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So that's kind of, you know, that sucks you in a little bit. I think that's. That's pretty cool, you know, because a part of you says to yourself, you know, I believe it, you know. Yeah. It doesn't really mean anything. It isn't real. And. But I hadn't thought of it from that ego point of view, but I'm certainly a believer in that, you know.

[A]

Gets into it hard. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the ego being. I had a real revelation where I was like, oh, when I was talking about the devil when I was growing up, who's the liar? Because I grew up evangelical. Who's the liar? Who's the thief? It's the ego. We just called it the devil also. You're gonna. This is a fun fact you can use the rest of your Life. When Paul, St. Paul writes about the flesh, he means the ego. That's what the modern scholars would say. Unfortunately, he use the word flesh. Sarx. Is the word in Greek. I believe he is. They translate deep.

[B]

You are. Look at this stuff. We're into First Corinthians stuff here should.

[A]

Have a cane, but like a sheep's herding sheep. But sarx is the word, and we translate it as flesh. But Richard Rohr and others have taught me that a better word would be ego. But we took it as flesh, which. Which only hurt this, like, obsession with sexuality and, like, the filth that I'm like this eating, shitting, farting fucking thing. And it's like, no, that's a cop out. Like, you being embarrassed of your poops is, like, so stupid. Like, it's actually way more insidious and deeper and that needs to be exposed. And you're actually stopping here going like, oh, I had a boner. Like, fuck off. Go further. You're actually ravenous and murderous and. And you think invading countries are insane. They're just acting out the same thing that's in you just writ large. And that's why we love scapegoating, and that's why we love. Oh, that's not me. And we just stand with the innocent and whistle. Whistle in the dark.

[B]

Right, man, you're a rabbi. You are.

[A]

Healthy. Hydration isn't just about drinking water. It's about drinking water plus electrolytes, which makes sense. You lose both water and sodium when you sweat, so both need to be replaced to prevent muscle cramps, headaches, and energy dips. It's also wonderful for cognitive function, overall wellness. This is how I start my day. With what? How do I get magnesium, potassium, and just the right amount of sodium into my bloodstream every single morning? I drink Element, the amazing hydration drink. It's become a huge part of my wellness program and a huge and important and pleasurable part of my morning routine that I sincerely look forward to. I start every morning with a big glass of water and a packet of elements. I like their watermelon salt flavor best. You just mix it and you are good to go. No sugar or artificial junk. Just electrolytes and great taste. And you get that potassium and you get that magnesium for health performance and energy. It also tastes amazing. I love drinking it. I actually don't like my water without it. I prefer it with element 10 times more. Sometimes at night, I'll have a cup of the chocolate salt element in hot water, which is incredible and also wonderful for curbing my appetite. When I am fasting, I do intermittent fasting. And occasionally I do an entire fast day. And when I'm drinking my element. It makes it so much easier. I've given it to so many friends who love the orange salt flavor. A friend just texted me, he went for a run, he came back and drank it. It's like drinking a life giving elixir again. You can't just replace the water. You gotta get these minerals, these elements into your blood to replenish you, to give you that energy, to give you that brain support and to prevent cramps and fatigue. I love it. You have a wonderful offer here from our friends at Element. You go to drink lmnt.com weird and use promo code weird. They will give you a free Element sample pack with any order when you order, which is really fun because you can try all of the flavors and if you're anything like me, get hooked and rotate and try lots of different ones. If Element doesn't exceed your expectations, they have a no questions asked refund policy. You don't even have to send it back. You got nothing to lose but support your body. Support this show. Go to drinklmnt.com weird to get your free sample pack with any purchase. That's drinklmnt.com weird. We're also brought to us by our friends at Caraway. One of the smallest, simplest things that has added so much value to our lives is cooking together as a family and with a four year old. We've noticed it's a wonderful parenting hack that our daughter, if she's involved in the food prep, she so much more likely to eat it and even try new things. Val and I just got and are in love with the best looking, best cooking, new cook and bakeware from Caraway. What is Caraway? It's great cookware with no nasty chemicals, that's easy to clean and fun to use. And it also looks great whether you're late to spring cleaning, way way, way late or just about to do some anytime cleaning. Their thoughtfully designed sets and complementary storage makes getting and staying organized easier than ever. And you can now save 10 on the full suite of Caraway products from their Internet famous cookware to their newly launched food storage set. Caraway's high quality ceramic coated kitchenware is free of PTFEs such as Teflon. It's also free of lead, cadmium and other toxic chemicals you know aren't safe for you so you know you are cooking safe. And Caraway kitchenware comes in a variety of chic shades and all sets include complimentary easy access storage solution ceramics naturally slick surface means minimal oil or butter for slide off the pan eggs and easy Cleaning. So no chemicals and less oil means healthier cooking and easier cooking. It's so fun. Over 40,000 people have raved about their Caraway kitchen. Now it's time for you to try for yourself. Visit carawayhome.com weird to take advantage of this limited time offer for 10 off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for weirdos, so visit carawayhome.com weird or use code weird at checkout Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern. All right, everybody, back to Stephen. Okay.

[B]

In fact, I have another guest you should ask onto your podcast. We can talk about this later. Yeah, tell me. He's my rabbi. His name is Rabbi Mordecai Finley. Have you ever heard of Rabbi Finley? No. He's here in la.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he's half Irish, half Jewish, former Marine, kung fu, jiu jitsu, black belt, whatever, I don't know what he is. And a PhD in ethical psychology, I think it's called. No. And he's done a million kind of videos that are sort of teaching videos, you know, an hour long class. But just a wonderful guy and really into. I mean, he'll go deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Yeah. So we can write that.

[A]

Yeah, we'll write more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm panicking that I have to spell Mordecai, but yeah, I'm mortified. Okay. So it's interesting talking about Ryan and you. I was interested in your feelings on masculinity. You mentioned the Marines. You were a Marine. A lot of your approach. Val is a deeply feminine woman and when she reads the War of Art, she. She goes like, it's very masculine. And I'm like, yeah, it is. Like, that's what I really love about it. I'm just wondering what your relationship, as I read about your youth and how hard it was and long haul trucking and fucking living in your van and all of that stuff. And I'm over here, I'm like, what makes you think of us complaining that the WI fi is out in the Starbucks or whatever it is? But I'm just interested in, like how this day and age, like masculinity and men in general, we're learning. We're kind of like learning and evolving. But I'm wondering where you find it useful.

[B]

Oh, that's a great question. Well, first of all, let me say that we're talking about resistance. We're talking about anxiety, fear, whatever, that and doing the hard stuff and not going with the peach cobbler. And in order to do that, to live that, that hard life, which we for the rest of our lives, we have to summon some sort of force of mental toughness or whatever you want to call it. And I think it can be masculine or feminine. In practice, the most warrior like individual I can think of is a mother. I mean, if you think about a mother will lift a Buick with her bare hands if her child is underneath that, right? Or go into a burning building to save her child. And in fact, when we talk about art or creativity, what is it except bringing forth new life, right? It's being pregnant, it's bringing forth something like that. So I do think male or female, the male side would be the kind of the warrior sort of ethic. You know, the virtues of a warrior and that kind of thing. The female side to me is. Is the mother. The nurturing, the loving, the idea of total selflessness that you, the mom, will give everything, including your life to protect that life within you, you know? And so I think whether it's male or female, we have to summon some. No bullshit. Strength.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To face this devil.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Day after day after day. And, and. And faith has a lot to do with it. Now, I'm not talking religious or anything, but we do have to believe in that creative force that you were talking about before, you know, which to me is like the big bang. It's. It's. It's part of the cosmos. It's part of existence. Whatever it is, though, there is this devil force of resistance. There's also this universal creative force that you heard in your head when you were driving down here from Ojai this morning. So anyway, that's kind of where I come out on male or. Yeah, it's not masculine or feminine. I think it's both.

[A]

I completely hear that. So we have a cold plunge. So does Ryan. I think he got. Maybe got the same one I have. Anyway, we were texting about it. It's very interesting. Both we have little get togethers at our house and people are always curious about the cold plunge. And that's one of those things that I can't shut up about. So I'm always like, really? Don't ask me about it if you don't want me to talk about it for 45 minutes. But what happens, and I'm very proud of this, we're not like drinkers, so our parties are very pg. But what happens instead of, like, doing shots or other, like, feats of strength, is people will get in the cold plunge, which is really fun. Men and women. And I do notice that in general, men tend to be a Thousand times more interested in getting in it. And that's neither really here nor there.

[B]

That's interesting. I thought you were going to say the opposite.

[A]

No, the women do get in it, and some of the women absolutely rock it. And, you know, both do well. But I've always considered it to be pouch envy when I get it. This is because we don't have babies. This is only because we don't have.

[B]

Well, I think that's true creativity.

[A]

Yeah, we have creativity. But I. The. So I coach the people when they get in the cold place, and I go, first things first. You're going to get in at your feet, and it's going to be really cold at your feet, and you're going to want to stop. And the first thing you need to realize is if you get your whole body in it, it's better because you get overwhelmed and your body doesn't know where to feel pain, so you feel no pain. But if you just get in your feet, your feet are going to hurt like hell. So get in it. Doesn't that just sound like the law of the universe?

[B]

Yeah, I think it is true. Absolutely.

[A]

Get in it the whole way or it's gonna punish you.

[B]

Yeah, get in. Yeah.

[A]

And then I go. The first thing we're gonna do is.

[B]

I thought about that. That's why cold plunges, I think, are so addictive. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. There's something universally true about them, like, cosmically true about them. 2. Smile, because you're not going to want to. Your lips are going to turn blue and you hate it. I go, you have to smile and tell yourself, I love it. You have to say, l'. Chaim. Like, this is to life. This is the opposite of dying in a nursing home. This is like the most invigorating thing. And then our goal isn't to stay in for two minutes or one minute or anything. Our goal is one long, slow exhale because you're going to be going. And it's just like. Just all. And I just go, just look at me. Because they all close their eyes and I go, just look at me and go, what does that sound like, Lamaze? That's exactly what I did with my wife when she was giving birth. I go, look at me and breathe. And that's why everybody's getting in this cold plunge. It's the same exact thing. But this is why Bagger Vance is true. This is why your work on the resistance is true. It's like, get in, slow down, breathe. Go through, not around. You can't go around. And if you give up, your day is fucked. And if you stay in, your day is golden.

[B]

Yeah. Why did God make the universe that way, right? That you gotta get into his freaking, you know, 32°, whatever it is. Plunge. Yeah.

[A]

That goes back to the Garden of Eden. It's what we were saying. It's like we wanted. And this is very. To me, a Course in miracles is the Garden of Eden and the Prodigal son just from much more extreme vantage points. But the first one is God wanted us all together in him or in God as one thing. And this is all metaphor. None of it's gonna. It's not gonna be perfect. It's just words. But it's like there was part of us that was like, wouldn't it be nice to be separate just as an experiment, just like as an innocent little game. What if we were separate? And then bam, it all happened. In fact, the whole of it happened in an instant. It's already over, it's already done. But here we are kind of worming our way through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the prodigal son. We just, we. We left home. We squandered our inheritance. Our inheritance being perfect oneness to gamble and have sex and remember, he's Jewish and he works with the. The pigs. So that's like, to degrade ourselves. We want it. We want it just like movies. We want to be degraded, we want to be disrespected, we want to be wronged. We want so we can fight for vengeance, so we can come back and all of it. And then the. The game ends when you go like, wait, I could just go back to my dad's house.

[B]

And your dad welcomes you, but any welcome, I would say.

[A]

It'S going to kill.

[B]

Please tell me when we ate the apple, what we really wanted to do? It was like God had all the creative power. He was the creator and we were the created. Right? And if we stayed within this world where everything was given to us, we were like children, right? But we said, whether we realized it or not, how about if we create something? And we started to get a little spark of the power that only God had. And that's why he got so pissed off at us. I think it's like you crossed this line, motherfucker. You know?

[A]

Can I. Deeply excited to interject because A Course in Miracles would say, God can't be mad at us. God's perfect love and oneness. We thought he was mad at us. So we developed the ego. And the ego is a creature of Duality. And it says, come with me or God will kill you. And we go, okay. It's like Schwarzenegger, come with me if you want to live. So we sided with the ego, and then the world of the ego was developed. And that's why this whole thing is kill or be killed. That's why this whole thing is chaotic. That's why this whole thing is random. That's why this whole thing is afraid, because we think God is trying to kill us, so we have to kill him first, which we think we did. But that sin, that guilt and that fear, fear comes into past, present, future, and it creates this whole thing. Which is why the course in miracles is the only thing that I found that doesn't just explain suffering, but goes like, this is. This is why it happened. Like, we did this and we're afraid of this. So the whole thing follows that. The law of that initial choice, very interesting. But the solution is to go, God's not mad at us. How could perfect love be mad at us? Stop it. Like, stop it. I was just very excited to say that.

[B]

But I do think that. That we're trying to get back to the garden. Don't you think?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, as. But not as we were originally. In other words, unconscious, created beings. Right. But as conscious, creative beings. Yeah, yeah. And get back to that somehow to get back to that oneness, to God completely, whatever that. Whatever that may be. Which I think when we're writing a joke or we're being. Or doing anything creative, we are doing that which God alone does. Yes, right, agreed. And that's pretty amazing.

[A]

You're coming into your inheritance. You're kind of like you're reflecting the light of God's creation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which in a way, I think has to be God's idea from the beginning, whether we knew it or he knew it or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think any of it's a mistake or an error. But here's. Here's where.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

It's interesting. Why don't we go back to the Father or to God? The course would say because we think we killed him. The ego says you killed him. If we live in duality and God is oneness, you must have ended oneness to become duality. So you murdered him. And that's why we kill our food, and that's why we kill each other. And that's why we project our guilt onto you. And that's why we can't stop judging each other to make ourselves innocent. I Go, well, Stephen's an idiot. He's selfish and greedy. All the things that I am, so I can be innocent and you'll go to hell and I'll go to heaven. It's all this, like, scapegoating, projection.

[B]

And then the Bhagavad Gita comes at it from a whole other aspect of Krishna. God saying, arjuna doesn't want to fight, doesn't want to kill these other people. Krishna says to him, yes, I do want you to kill those other people, because death is not real. And he says to Arjuna, I have killed them all already, so it won't be you doing it. Which I don't really understand. It's the opposite of the sort of the Christian concept.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But so the whole killing thing, you know, is embraced in some crazy way in. In this Hindu tradition, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. You know, the destroy. I am whatever it is. The destroyer of worlds. Yeah, whatever that. Was that Oppenheimer?

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, I come as Death or something, was that.

[B]

Yeah, something like that.

[A]

Yeah. Katie's gonna Google it kindly for us. We'll all know when we see that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nolan movie.

[B]

Anyway, we're getting deep here. You gotta have Rabbi Finley here.

[A]

I think you're doing wonderful. I mean, you're.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're lighting me up. The rest. I just know the rest of the day is going to be great because we did. We went to this depth together. What do we got? I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds. Yeah, it gets heavy. See, that's why.

[B]

But that's not a bad thing, I think, the way Christians looking at it.

[A]

Well, in our culture, death is the absolute worst.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Abomination.

[B]

And this is something crazy about that, I think.

[A]

You know Ram Dass right there, his picture is up there.

[B]

Oh, that's wrong.

[A]

He used to say. It's like.

[B]

Is he still alive?

[A]

He died. 88. He died when he was 88. He's like, we run out, and the leaves are turning orange, and we paint them green, like that's our whole society. And he goes, our religion is staying alive. And the high priests are the doctors, and the churches are the hospitals, and it's like, we can't look at it. We put makeup on our corpses. We. We put them in suits and we visit them and eat cheese like we can't fucking handle it. But I always think that it's. I quote it all the time, but it's in the Dao de Ching. It goes. No, it's in. Yeah, it's maybe the book of the Dao, but maybe that's the same thing. I've never even known. He goes, you should have been born.

[B]

Back in the 60s, you know, you should have been, you know, 20 years old in 1969.

[A]

Wouldn't that have been. Maybe, was. Maybe you knew me, man.

[B]

Maybe my son and I don't even know.

[A]

But it says those that find their way in the morning can gladly go in the evening. But we don't have that. We have. Just keep it going. This whole world. This is a dark thought, but this whole world runs on. Not me. Not yet.

[B]

Yeah, true.

[A]

Other people are dying. Other people are sick. Not me. Not yet. Not me, not yet. Another day, my passport got sent, stamped again. Not more hamburgers, more movies, more. More sex, more Skittles. But it's like, it can't be that. Skittles are great. Skittles are great. But it can't be that, because the day you die will be just like today. It'll be another moment. And the quality of your consciousness in that moment is, I think, what matters. How you've learned to embrace all adversity, including the cessation of your breathing, is the whole thing. It can't just be Skittles and jizzing. It can't.

[B]

Now, if. If we go back to what we were talking about before, about the ego and the self, and I'm going to lose my train of thought here, but it's the old thing of, are we spiritual beings having a material existence, or are we, you know, material things having a spiritual existence? And if we are spiritual beings having a material existence and the ego is this bad thing, then are we simply in exile from whatever world exists beyond the curtain? And in that case, maybe we shouldn't be so afraid of that world, whatever that is, gradually? And maybe we've. Yeah, maybe we've just talked ourselves into it. It's the ego running rampant, you know, and convincing us that, you know, there's, like, a great quote. Have you ever read. There's actually a Penguin paperback called the Last Days of Socrates, and it has, like, the three or four dialogues that Plato wrote when Socrates had been convicted and was in the cell and was waiting to die. Are you familiar with this at all? It's really amazing, you know, because here was, like, one of the smartest guys that ever lived, the most highly evolved, facing his own death. And the way it worked was he was in this. This prison, but all of his friends could visit him, and they were there all day long. You know, finally at night, the jailer would kick him out, but, you know, all of his disciples and acolytes and stuff like that, and it went on for, you know, a couple of weeks or something like that, while he was waiting. I'll again get wonky on you here. They couldn't execute him. He had been convicted. He was going to. Supposed to drink the hemlock, but they couldn't execute him because there was a festival where a boat had gone, you know, the spiritual boat with the maidens and the virgins had gone to the island of Delos, I think Apollo. And they couldn't execute anybody until the boat came back. And of course, there's no radios in those days, so nobody knew when the boat was going to come back. So they were just sort of waiting and it was like each day would go by and it was like, where's the boat? They can't execute anyway. He says to Socrates, says to his. His, the day comes and he's taken the hemlock and the poison. Yeah, the poison is going to kill him, right? And he says to his friends are all weeping and upset. He says, and so we part, my friends, you to live and I to die. But who knows, who can say which one is the best of these two of these two things. Wow. And then they all. They all go and wow. He goes on, so. And of course, he's absolutely right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's to say?

[A]

Who's to say? Yeah, Nobody's ever come back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And been like, hey, yeah. I mean, that's debatable to certain traditions, but. Yeah.

[B]

And I'll give you one other small thing in here, please. Socrates. You know, they're waiting for the boat and they have no idea when the boat's going to come back. And Socrates has a dream. And in the dream, a woman in white greets him on the road, and she says to him, in three days, to the pleasant land of Thea, which is a place in Greece, a beautiful place, shalt thou go. And sure enough, so he. He said to his friends, the boat will be here in three days. And of course it was. And but what the maiden in white, or the lady in white said was, you know, to the pleasant land of Thea, shalt thou go. So for whatever that's worth, we don't know. Yeah. Nobody knows.

[A]

Gladly go in the evening.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It reminds me of when Ramana Maharshi was a great Indian saint, was dying. His devotees were also around him and said, don't go. They were saying, heal yourself, like, do a miracle. And he said, don't be silly. Where Could I go And I've had some pretty far out talk about the 60s psychedelic experiences where the takeaway was beyond. I just can't articulate it. But beyond a doubt, Thomas Merton said this too. You don't go to heaven. It's not like leaving and traveling. You. You come back into the essence of what you always were. And that was my experience, is it's not like a rocket, like Mighty Mouse to another dimension. You're already there. There's just all this muck kind of confusing you.

[B]

Which. Didn't Jesus say, the kingdom of heaven is within you? Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that what he meant? Did you interpret that?

[A]

Absolutely. That's how I interpret it. It's. The kingdom of heaven is here and men do not see it is this idea. And that's why I think you and I, when we're writing, when we're great music, great art, great movies, honestly, it sounds like, well, how could that be? I think anything that helps you lose yourself, you vanish. But you're still there. I think there's something deeply spiritual about an audience listening to the same music. It's like consciousness is shared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Musicians.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With each other. And that's why it makes it so.

[B]

Yeah. Their ego has gone away. If you're in the audience, your ego's gone. Right. You're just in the music. You don't even know what you're thinking about.

[A]

And what a great pleasure. And that's a little reflection of our original state or of the garden.

[B]

Yeah. And it's also really interesting that it's music we're talking about here, with which also mathematics and music are like the same thing, you know, and they're sort of supernal, you know, beyond. Beyond. Right, right. The music of whatever. The spheres or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Mathematics being the language of. Of existence. Whatever Einstein said, you know.

[A]

Right. Wow.

[B]

We're getting pretty deep here. You know. Is this what we were going to do here?

[A]

This is what we were supposed to do.

[B]

It was a comedic.

[A]

Now, as I always say, we stopped trying to be funny about 10 years ago on this show. It's not really a chuckle hut anymore, but I. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm trying this. I'm trying to remember. It was Beethoven that said something similar. It was. It was like if people could understand. I'm badly paraphrasing. It's like if people could understand one symphony that I wrote, like, fully, they would know God, basically. It was. It was very.

[B]

And I'm sure he's right.

[A]

Yeah, sure. He was well, you said the first lesson, of course, in miracles. This blank doesn't mean anything. This cup doesn't mean anything. Eckhart Tolle said, if you could understand just that one lesson, that's the whole thing, is that you're a meaning making machine. I'm discerning between the atoms between us and the atoms that are me and the atoms that are you. And going like, these are three things. The air, you and me. But it's also one thing and it's very scary to lose meaning. We can praise our ego too and go like, thanks for helping keeping us calm.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Huh?

[A]

Yeah. It's a little too much to go like, yeah, Stephen. It helps me to call you Steve. Yeah, yeah, it's a little.

[B]

We can't live in a psychedelic world all the time.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Because we're just, you know, we have to get up and fry some eggs, you know, for breakfast, you know, and that's where the ego, you know, proves its value to us.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's funny, this is going back a couple ideas ago, but again, to talk about the scapegoating we were talking about, if you achieve things, the ego stops existing. Like, if you find your flow and start seizing your potential, the ego gets shaky. That's one way to explain why resistance exists. It goes like, let's keep you small, let's keep you manageable.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's what the ego does. And then I think it made me think of people that are like, well, America just wants to keep you consuming. Like, it just wages wars and it just wants you to buy stuff. And I'm like, that's what the ego does. It's the same thing. Like, stop acting like it's so exotic. The reason it's so offensive to us is cause that's what we're doing to ourselves. Not me, not yet. Just keep buying, just keep coming, just keep eating, just keep sleeping and I'll run the show. That's the shadow government. That's the real Illuminati is the thing that's going like, pay no mind to the man behind the curtain. But there's this greater inheritance. Jesus has all these great parables about it, but one of them that I love is, it's like the man that was in a field and he found a treasure buried under the ground. So he went to the people selling the land and bought the field, knowing that he could get the treasure. So he sold everything that he owned to buy the field knowing that there was a treasure that's powerful. You don't even need to really fully understand it. But it's like there's something, somewhere. It's in you, it's buried like a treasure that's worth giving up everything for. But we're too busy. It's one of the reasons I'm not too worried about AI is because our desires. I know our desires are so insane. They're all respect based. They're spatial, they're psychological. I want you to respect me. I want you to tell me I'm important. I can't see a machine going like why didn't you tell me I was cool? You know what I mean?

[B]

It may surprise you. You think it might, you know? I don't know. I don't know. I don't even want to think about it. It's too scary to me. Yeah.

[A]

Oh really? Yeah, yeah, it's possible. As long as it's not in space though. Like we want to work and achieve and humiliate our foes and win. So we can have a house by an ocean, right? AI doesn't want a house by an ocean. It wants literal electricity. It wants electricity. So that's the great.

[B]

I wonder about.

[A]

You think it'll go like.

[B]

I don't understand what it is anyway. But maybe it will want a house by the ocean, you know, maybe it will want, you know, we want ultimate dominion over whatever.

[A]

We want those things because an ocean looks like resources that keep us alive. Like we're so stupid that we go like water, commerce, recreation, hydration. A computer isn't going to go Like I just need to know where the farms are. Like it doesn't care.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I hope you're right. I hope you're right.

[A]

Well, for the record, AI, I've always spoke up in your defense. Tell me just some good. What, you have something?

[B]

No, go ahead, go ahead.

[A]

Give me some good old fashioned off the. I wasn't planning on asking you this, but here you are a man I respect. I feel like I would want to be asked this question. Give me some. Give me some wisdom. Give me some of those things that have carried you through. We've covered a lot of them, so don't feel like you owe me any more.

[B]

Yeah, we've hit everything.

[A]

Yeah, but if you have some of those things, I'm. I'm 44 people listening are 20, 22. There's things that you might assume they know, but give me. We just have so few people that have been there, done that and can articulate it. Are There little mantras that you've carried, little maxims, things that people have impressed on you. I know this is in the book as well. Would you share just some. Totally. Aside from. From your work, just what is that life wisdom that. That you. That's changed your life?

[B]

Well, I'm a believer. Okay, I'll try. And I'm a believer in the muse, the goddess. The goddess who inspires artists. Right. And I'm definitely a believer that life exists on at least two levels. We're here on the material level. We're talking about the ego or the flesh that dies. But there's another level above us, and that's where jokes come from and where movies come from and the Ninth Symphony comes from. And basically, I think our purpose, at least my purpose, and I'll say that to anyone creative, and I believe that's everybody, is to believe in first, believe in that other level and then find a way to reach it. And the way to reach it, in my experience, is through work, is through sitting down and grinding. You know, sitting down, like Beethoven sits down at the piano and sort of tunes into the cosmic radio station. That's the thing up there. And in order to. To be able to do that, he has to first sort of make himself an instrument, make himself a vessel, make himself a conduit, make himself someone who possesses the skills. I'm blathering on here, but I'll give you the full. The full dose.

[A]

You would prefer that I keep laughing.

[B]

Who possesses the skills. Thinking of Beethoven. Yes, he can play the piano. He can, you know, write the music, but he also has the skills to sit day after day after day when everybody. When he's deaf, when nobody. When everybody else thinks he's crazy and to serve the goddess and to reach that. That higher level. And that, I think, is. I mean, that's the way I try to live my life. Yeah. And it's the. The weird part of it is, is that it's not cinematic, it's not glamorous, it's tedious, it's boring.

[A]

It's a montage in a movie at best.

[B]

And it's. It's digging, you know, it's digging with a shovel, you know? Yeah. So that's my. I think people think today, young people think today they can do one video that goes viral and they'll become Kim Kardashian, you know, and the world just doesn't work that way.

[A]

Isn't it fun to think in defense of Kim Kardashian, how hard and how much effort she's putting into.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure if we really knew her, she works like a dog.

[A]

I'm sure she does. That's really fascinating. And what a brilliant, truly brilliant answer. I'm saying, what is your life wisdom? And you're saying, find a higher calling. Believe in a purpose. And that is, like, what I see so missing. I'm.

[B]

I think people are trying for it, but they don't know where to find. Yeah. Let me say one other final thing, please. That whatever that calling is, it's unique to you and unique to me. It's not that you can do anybody else's. Your comedy or your whatever it is that you're doing. The movie that your wife is writing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is unique to you and unique to her. Nobody else could do it. That's. That's the calling. Yeah. So the answer sort of is what? It's like we were born with it. We were born with a seed inside us, you know, with this sense of humor or sense of whatever it is. And all we have to do is find that. All we have to do is open ourselves up to it. Like Joseph Campbell said, follow your bliss. It sounds like a, you know, a kind of a phony baloney bumper sticker mantra, but it's really true. Yeah. What do you love? What makes you feel great and follow it.

[A]

And that aligns with what you were given. So Richard Roy says, the meaning of life is to humbly and proudly. I like that because it's a paradox. Humbly and proudly return what you've been given. Right.

[B]

Okay, that's good. I like return.

[A]

Isn't that great?

[B]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[A]

So what I hear you saying is something I say to people when they ask. It's like, maybe it's not a movie store. Like, fucking stop it. Maybe it's not a movie star. Like, sometimes what's written on your bones to do is just so happens to be what the culture values above all else, which is a movie.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sometimes it's Tom Cruise, sometimes it's absolutely not. And we need to get more. It's a lack of imagination. Thinking I'm going to go to Hollywood and be a this or I'm going to be a rock star. Like, there are other options. And you need to broaden the menu of fulfilling deep, important, very well, special lives.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But too many of us are just going like, well, I guess I have to go viral. Like Kim Kardashian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like there are Kim Kardashian levels of all these different places, but we don't. We don't see them modeled.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you one small example that I've thought about on this subject. I have a lifelong friend, my friend Ruthie. She's basically never worked. She's been married. I know, three times, I guess. And according to any of the sort of movie star things, she would not be able to check that box. But what she is in her family and her extended family, which is a pretty big one. She's the one you go to when this hits the fan, you know, she holds it. Now, there's no role for that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, there's no label for. They don't say. That's not like astrophysicists. But that's just what you're really saying, Pete. Yeah, that. That we need to have the imagination to say. That's just as valid, if not more valid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than any of these other, you know, Elon Musk or whatever it is.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So. And of course, there are a million, you know, I don't want to. What you'd call it roles.

[A]

Yes, yes. That's right.

[B]

Are not valued. The society doesn't give you a medal for it.

[A]

They don't tell the story about.

[B]

They're absolutely vital.

[A]

That is okay. So it's like. I love that you said valid because it made me think of Val. I was sort of making her laugh, telling the story. You mentioned that we live in Ojai. We have this beautiful, balanced life. It's filled with, like, quiet and beauty and, like, the greatest compliment. People ask Val, what's it like being married to a comedian? She said, I. I can't tell other than we laugh, but I'm not like some insane person scrawling on the walls or whatever because we've achieved this balance. It's right for us. It's not. That is not the fix for everybody. But we found the thing that worked for us, and it happens to be the exact thing that works for me, which is great. So I told Val, there's a little story where I was like. I was just making her laugh, just appreciating her being like. I was like this insane monkey in the woods, and I had acorns, and I spent all day just throwing acorns in a little hole, and it's all I did, and nobody bothered me. And I just got really good at throwing acorns in a little hole. But was I fulfilled or happy? No, I was pretty insane. Like, there were moments of, wow, I really nailed that acorn. But, like, I Had been doing it so long, nobody even asked me, like, how many acorns are in that tree? This is not a metaphor for money, by the way. It's just a skill. How many acorns are in that tree? Have you done that long enough? Like, are you good enough at that? She came along like a woodland fairy goddess. A love genius is what she is. Someone who understands and appreciates what a home can be. I know that sounds very gender.

[B]

No, that's great.

[A]

What a home can be and what a life can be. And she fucking rescued me, and we took the acorns again. It's not a metaphor for money. It was a science skill. And we were like, this can be part of it. But I can be so stubborn and blindered on that I. Without her. So when we're biking around our beautiful town at sunset, I get emotional going, like, I wouldn't have done this. I'd be living in a cop's apartment with venetian blinds and the mattress on the floor, just saving money for who knows what and fucking dying. So is there. Is that, like, a heralded choice? Not. Not culturally. There's not a lot of movies about people like this, but it's the most fucking beautiful. And her life is good. Her life is beautiful. And not because she's married to a famous person, because she knows balance. She. She understands harmony. She understands friendship. She taught that to me. And then in my small way, I teach her ambition and drive. And so these two flavors and this Yang came together. That's gorgeous. But nobody's sitting around going, like, I could just. Or if they did, they would say, just if I could just be a Val. You just be a Val. Just be a Pete and strive to be a Val. It's under celebrated, under recognized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All these.

[B]

And there's God bless you and God bless Val. It's an incredible thing.

[A]

You know, we all need Val.

[B]

We should end on that note right there. Cut.

[A]

Does that feel good?

[B]

It doesn't get any better than that. You know, God bless you.

[A]

I can't. I'm so struck by your humility. You've let me blab so much this hour, and you. And when I wasn't. You were going.

[B]

I'm sorry for going conversation. Right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But, yeah, I. I see the. I don't want to. I'll just say it. I see the work you've done on yourself, and it's great. It's like hanging out with a giant bell.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

You can ring when you want to, but the rest of the time. There's just all this space for everyone else. What a beautiful example.

[B]

Great that you and Val have this thing, you know, God bless the both of you. Thank you. You know, it's great.

[A]

Thank you. I appreciate.

[B]

Thanks for having me here, Pete, you know, and it's been my pleasure being the dude that you are, you know. Well, everyone, meet Rabbi Finley.

[A]

I'm gonna have him on Mordecai. My boy Morty.

[B]

Don't let Mordecai throw you off. You know, it's more the Finley part, you know?

[A]

Yeah, he's more of an Irishman.

[B]

Yeah, he's a redheaded dude, you know, and. Oh, I can't. Yeah, yeah, he's great.

[A]

Well, we'll all be better for it when he comes on. Thank you. What a privilege to say thank face to face. Thank you for the war of art. Thank you for government cheese. Thank you for everything you've done, and thank you for this time.

[B]

Hey, great. You know, thanks, Pete. Thanks for having me on here.

[A]

Would you say keep it crispy? It's right over your shoulder in case you want to read it like a cue card.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Keep it crispy. My neck won't turn that far.

[A]

Yeah, you didn't. You don't have to look at it. I like that you. I saw you realize why keep it crispy.

[B]

What's that all about?

[A]

It just started as a joke, kind of, but, you know, we've been talking about this whole time keeping it crispy.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Flow open. Honest.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Crisp. Do the work, get in the cold.

[B]

Plunge.

[A]

All right. Thank you.

[B]

Great.