Wayne Brady

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Guest: Wayne Brady
Date: October 2, 2024

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Overview

In this deeply candid, joyful, and insightful episode, Pete Holmes sits down with the multi-talented Wayne Brady. Known for his improvisational genius and wide-ranging career, Wayne opens up about his lifelong battles with imposter syndrome, mental health, identity, family origins, his journey to accept his talents, and his recent coming out as pansexual. The discussion flows from the pressures of fame to childhood trauma, building self-worth, the evolving landscape of entertainment, and the beautiful absurdities of being alive and creative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nerding Out Over Comics & Showbiz Hustle

• [01:32-03:43] Wayne, a self-proclaimed comic book nerd, dreams of playing Mr. Terrific in a DC adaptation and riffs with Pete on the business of producing such shows.
  • Quote: “I’m a straight up comic nerd. Like for real, for real.” – Wayne ([02:41])
• Pete laments the challenges of funding digital comedy, with Wayne offering to help produce.
• They discuss early-career milestones and the shifting sense of accomplishment in entertainment.
  • Quote: "I used to drive to San Diego from here, two hours to sing in wedding bands for $50." – Wayne ([05:50])
  • Quote: "When you give me a check for a couple thousand dollars. Are you kidding me?" – Wayne ([05:59])

2. From Whose Line to Social Media Stardom

• [06:07-11:16] The pair compare the old showbiz thrill of being on TV to today's viral fame ecosystem, from Antoine Dodson’s “Hide your kids, hide your wife” moment to TikTok stars.
  • Quote: “Someone’s first brush with social media – it’s either fame or infamy.” – Wayne ([06:44])
  • Quote: “I remember coming up, I was like, it’s the guy from Road Rules. … And now I’m like, who cares? Any bus that pulls into the bus stop, he got on it.” – Pete ([10:14])
• Wayne touches on the difference between creating in private and performing live, especially for comedy and improv.
  • Quote: “If you can’t ply your trade live, I don’t know if I have as much respect for you.” – Wayne ([11:16])

3. Pressure, Ownership, & Imposter Syndrome

• [12:13-21:14] Pete probes Wayne on the pressures of being an all-around improv virtuoso and the expectation to "perform" on cue.
• Wayne details early sidekick roles, his feeling like the "seventh guy in the back," and the evolution toward owning his skills.
  • Quote: “...the tools that I needed to develop because ... I’ve accepted that I am very, very good at this art.” – Wayne ([15:09])
• Stories of being one of few Black performers, imposter syndrome in comedy, and learning to take pride in his achievements.
  • Quote: “I couldn’t take it in. I could not accept that gift. In fact I fought it.” – Wayne ([18:47])

4. Standup, Peer Respect, & the Science of Comedy

• [21:42-24:34] The conversation turns to peer validation, explaining comedic perspective to audiences, and the “membrane” one crosses to be accepted as ‘funny.’
  • Quote: “So much of the first 10 years of comedy is like waiting for someone to say: you’re a comedian, you’re one of us.” – Pete ([21:07])
• The science vs. art of standup and improv, the grind behind crafting material, and why instant TikTok magic isn’t the same as showbiz discipline.

5. Summoning Playfulness, Rituals, and Show-Time Mindset

• [24:58-27:39] Pete asks Wayne about the practice of “summoning” his onstage persona, and if he has rituals.
• Wayne attributes his ability to perform now to gratitude for being wanted, booked, and anticipated by audiences.
  • Quote: “Isn’t it cool that there are enough people that go: we got Wayne Brady on the show ... he’s gonna kill.” – Wayne ([27:03])
  • Quote: “Gratitude being the opposite of fear. … You can’t feel afraid and grateful at the same time.” – Pete ([27:49])

6. The Terrifying Joys and Dangers of Headlining & Perfectionism

• [30:14-33:54] Wayne walks through going from the surprise delight in group improv to the demands of solo stardom; the pain and pressure of always having to "bring it," fear of not being enough, and its toll on friendships and well-being.
  • Quote: “I was miserable. I was absolutely.” – Wayne ([31:54])
  • Quote: “I’ll replay it for weeks and weeks and weeks.” – Pete ([32:18])
• They bond over letting go, with therapy helping Wayne move from obsessive control to trusting ensemble work.

7. Inner Child, Trauma Work, & Gratitude

• [34:41-39:13] The show dives deep into psychological territory: childhood wounds, the inner child as a driver for performance, and the reparative power of gratitude and awareness.
  • Quote: “When I’m on stage doing improv ... this is Lil Wayne getting a chance to play with another kid.” – Wayne ([34:56])
• Pete likens stage gratitude to “showing” his child self the present moment’s goodness.
  • Quote: “Really, there’s another way to say the same thing, which is I’m saying to my child self: look, look, look!” – Pete ([35:29])

8. Family, Generational Guilt, and Parental Dynamics

• [39:32-52:22] Wayne unpacks his upbringing—his military father’s absence, being raised by his strict grandmother, and the generational expectations around education and safety.
  • Quote: “My father was not physically around...he made the choice early on to ask my grandmother to raise me so that I’d have the same upbringing he did.” – Wayne ([39:36])
• Profound discussion about carrying dreams and anxieties for ancestors, the meaning of college in Black and immigrant families, and seeing these cycles repeat with his own daughter.
  • Quote: “So I had a lot of guilt around that, too. So I needed to succeed to prove to them that I was OK.” – Wayne ([50:52])

9. Race, Comedy, and the Wayne Brady "Blackness" Debate

• [56:08-61:39] Pete asks about the notorious "Wayne Brady makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X" joke. Wayne candidly discusses the pain, Paul Mooney’s intent, and why challenges to his racial authenticity stung so deeply.
  • Quote: “When we look at another Black person ... and we question their blackness—first of all, and I say, what is your blackness? … Who says you are the gatekeeper and the arbiter of that?” – Wayne ([59:10])
  • Wayne explains processing this in therapy and how it tapped into his lifelong desire to belong.

10. Battling Depression and Embracing Therapy

• [63:30-73:05] Wayne opens up about living with undiagnosed depression and anxiety, the hidden toll it took behind the scenes, and a turning point in seeking genuine therapy, not just "gaming" therapists.
  • Quote: “I wish I could say I started going [to therapy] a while after all that happened. Really, I didn't take therapy seriously until 10 years ago.” – Wayne ([32:40])

11. Solitude, ADHD, and Growing Up Inside

• [73:32-78:10] Both Wayne and Pete relate as "indoor cats," shaped by protective, nervous upbringings that cultivated rich inner worlds and imagination, but fueled social withdrawal as adults.
  • Quote: "The Wayne that people see on TV is drastically different ... I'm a very solitary person and developed that as a self-defense mechanism." – Wayne ([73:05])

12. Coping Mechanisms: Community, Men's Groups, Small Steps

• [78:10-88:00] Discussion of men’s groups as community, the importance of connection to combat isolation, and practical tools for coping with overwhelm and executive dysfunction (making the bed, doing just the next thing).
  • Quote: “If I make my bed, it all falls into place.” – Wayne ([86:59])
  • Quote: “Who could do the day you’re doing? Nobody, including you. But isn’t there even just a comfort ... just this, just this?” – Pete ([88:00])

13. Coming Out as Pansexual

• [89:37-98:46] Pete respectfully asks Wayne about being pansexual and the complicated, ongoing journey of self-discovery and public disclosure.
  • Quote: “I’m still figuring it out too.” – Wayne ([90:16])
  • Wayne discusses misunderstandings, people's desire to categorize, and that his “truth” is still a journey, influenced by his faith and family support.
  • Quote: “It means that you would be open to love for everyone. Hearts, not parts.” – Wayne ([97:56])

14. Faith, Meaning of Life, and Legacy

• [98:49-107:07] Wayne credits Pete’s public spiritual searching for encouraging his own. They discuss the importance of being unembarrassed about faith, separating love from fear, and following the example of elders with deep self-faith.
  • Quote: “Maybe I can… that’s how you don’t walk around mad and angry and negative, asshole sometimes…” – Wayne ([103:01])
  • Quote: “When you know yourself to be a child of God, you know you’re going to your father. … Don’t be afraid of yourself.” – Pete ([105:39])
  • They tie loving oneself to being able to build and contribute rather than be cynical and destructive.

15. The Funniest Moment Ever

• [107:21-109:48] In a closing segment, Pete asks Wayne about the hardest he’s ever laughed. Wayne recalls being on stage in pure flow with his best friend Jonathan, laughing until he, literally, farted:
  • Quote: “That’s when I’ve laughed the hardest… laughing so hard onstage that I just ripped one.” – Wayne ([109:15])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Wayne on gratitude as fuel: "I can operate at a level of gratitude that I wasn’t capable of before, and that unlocks it for me." ([26:05])
• Wayne on feeling singled out: "I felt like there was no seat at the table for me." ([61:39])
• Pete on inner child work: "Really… I’m saying to my child self: look, look, look!" ([35:29])
• Wayne on imposter syndrome in success: "You don’t get a laminated comedy ID, you know what I mean?" ([20:54])
• Wayne on therapy and men’s group: "Being a part of a men's group gave me a community of at least a couple guys who I could talk to…" ([78:10])
• Pete on pansexuality and gender boxes: "When what you’re saying is life, the human experience… is so much stranger and wilder and mysterious and unknowable." ([92:14])
• Wayne on coming out: "That’s part of the journey for me. So I’m still trying to find out exactly what it means." ([98:46])
• Wayne on faith and self-love: "Well, if you’re saying that you’ve got faith and you love him, then you gotta love you." ([105:39])
• Wayne on laughter and joy: "I've laughed so hard on stage with Jonathan that I just ripped one." ([109:15])

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Important Timestamps

• Comic Nerd/Dream Roles: [01:32-03:43]
• Old Showbiz vs. Viral Fame: [06:07-11:16]
• Imposter Syndrome, Early Career: [15:14-21:14]
• Gatekeeping, Blackness, & Chappelle show joke: [56:08-61:39]
• Therapy & Depression: [63:30-73:05]
• Childhood Solitude & Imagination: [73:32-78:10]
• Practical coping (making the bed): [84:03-86:59]
• Wayne on coming out as pansexual: [89:49-98:46]
• Meaning of Life & Faith: [98:49-107:07]
• Hardest Laughter: [107:21-109:48]

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Concluding Thoughts

Wayne Brady and Pete Holmes co-create a conversation that moves seamlessly between deeply funny and refreshingly honest. From the challenges of living up to industry and community expectations, through inner battles with self-worth and depression, to moments of acceptance (creatively, racially, sexually, and spiritually), this episode is a celebration of vulnerability, resilience, and joy—their shared "weirdness" is rendered not just relatable, but healing.

Memorable Sign-Off:
"I like how to make a up!" – Pete ([110:12]), after Wayne recounts laughing so hard he ‘ripped one’ onstage.

Check Out:

• Wayne Brady: The Family Remix (Hulu / Freeform)
• Let’s Make a Deal (CBS)
• Whose Line Is It Anyway? (CW)

Wayne’s Final Words:
"Keep it crispy, baby." ([111:19])

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This summary covers core topics, highlights the episode’s wisdom and hilarity, and respects the conversational spirit and candor that Pete and Wayne brought to the mics.

Transcript

[Wayne Brady]

You made it with. You made it weird. You made it with. Oh, yeah. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[Pete Holmes]

What's happening, weirdos? Holy smokes. It's Wayne Brady. Wayne Brady is here, everybody. And he is thoughtful, he's deep, he's interesting, he. He's hilarious and he's just made of absolute talent. I'm so glad he came on the show. It was a thrill to get to sit down with Wayne Brady. Incredible. He's so fun. I'm so glad you guys are here to listen. Do check out his new show. It's called Wayne Brady the Family Remix. You can stream it on Freeform or Hulu or rent it or buy it on Prime. It's incredible. It's unlike any. Even calling it a reality show isn't quite right. It's like a documentary about a family and there are dynamics that I promise you have not seen before. And it's got Wayne. It's so funny. It's so interesting. Wayne Brady the Family Remix is available now to stream. So also I. The only other thing we're going to plug up top is my dates. Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Denver, Raleigh, North Carolina, Indianapolis, Seattle and Portland. So please go to PeteHomes.com for tickets to all of those. I can't wait to see everybody. That's so fun. These are all so many of my favorite places. Peteholmes.com hope to see you on the road. Get yourself some modern mammals. Get yourself into this show. Get into it.

[Wayne Brady]

I sit at home when I'm watching it. Which DC character you could be? I can be to be fired. You've already had sign.

[Pete Holmes]

Look, no offense to Ron Funches, he did a great job. But if we thought for a look, maybe that's mean. Ron, thank you for doing it. But if we thought for real, but if we thought you would have done it, that would have been fun. Let's say parallel universe.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, I got. Got another one that I could be that if I came on, I could be Mr. Terrific. Mr.

[Pete Holmes]

Terrific.

[Wayne Brady]

Which I think that you would.

[Pete Holmes]

No, I'm Picturing Shazam.

[Wayne Brady]

No, Mr. Terrific has like, it's a dark, dark, dark blue or black suit.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay.

[Wayne Brady]

And. And he has a mask that's kind of a cross that covers his face. He. He's in the league now and in different iterations. His whole thing is he's a a a. He's kind of. He's black Tony Stark and he's created these things called the Terrific Spheres that hover about him. He. He's in the same group of the league as Booster Gold.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't know Booster Gold.

[Wayne Brady]

See, I, I, I'm a straight up comic nerd.

[Pete Holmes]

Can see that.

[Wayne Brady]

Like for real, for real.

[Pete Holmes]

I like it. I'm a little embarrassed. Like, I don't want to let you down. As, as, as. I'm not really the only gatekeeper of who we fire. There are Matt McCarthy, who writes them with us. He, he would know everyone you're talking about.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, Matt, get on your shit.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, get on your shit. I have a question. Do you want to produce them? They're so expensive.

[Wayne Brady]

Really?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, Nobody wants to front the money. It sucks.

[Wayne Brady]

Wait, shut up.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm going. I'm calling. Look, I don't care if you guys hear a little business chat. I call companies and I go, we'll give you. What is it? It's, it's like 20 million YouTube impressions and then 50 million social impressions and I can't sell that. What's going on?

[Wayne Brady]

I don't understand.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't understand.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, I want to be in one and I'll help to produce it. You got to do what you got to do.

[Pete Holmes]

The slimiest guy on a podcast going, like, will you produce it?

[Wayne Brady]

Well, and then the rub goes, sure, mister. Yeah, absolutely.

[Pete Holmes]

Which I heard you talking about when you did. Whose line I actually heard you freestyle about. I have so many things. I'm so happy you're here. But you talked about, like, kind of like when you did the pilot, I guess that they were kinda, I don't wanna say motowning, but a little lowball.

[Wayne Brady]

I love how you use the Motown.

[Pete Holmes]

That's a verb.

[Wayne Brady]

Come on. I love that.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a thing.

[Wayne Brady]

I love that. Yeah, in the pilot. But it's all work. It all worked out. It's all scale and relativity, right? Yeah. That the Wayne that got. Whose Line is It Anyway, going back to, I guess we shot 97 or 98. I forget when the ABC version went on, but, but, but I was on the British version first. The Wayne that did that was happy to make. Yeah. I don't know, five grand or something. Yeah, maybe five grand. Are you kidding me?

[Pete Holmes]

I remember the first show I did where they said it was a thousand dollars. Look, I'm not saying $1,000 is nothing, but I'm saying I, it's scale flipped out. I was like, I can't trip.

[Wayne Brady]

Trip.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, quadruple digits. Really? Four if you count the one.

[Wayne Brady]

That's, that's the thing. And those are the things I think in gratitude that you have to remember sometimes when you're lucky Enough to. To, of course, you know, like they say, you know, you know, today's price isn't yesterday's price or tomorrow's price or whatever.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

But I remember specifically when I got cast up to that point, I'd done a lot of guest starring stuff and arcs on things and, and was cool.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And I'd been a regular on a VH1 series with. Oh my God. With. With Barry Sobel was a very little known little show on VH1 called Vinyl Justice. The producers of RuPaul Drag Race, they did that first here. And not. Not a very good show. Not because of them. No shade to Randy. The team, they were awesome. The chemistry between Barry and I. Not. No. No bueno. But. But when you get that little bit of money.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

I used to drive to San diego from here, two hours to sing in wedding bands for $50.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Wayne Brady]

Back in the day.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

So when you give me a check for a couple thousand dollars. Are you kidding me?

[Pete Holmes]

Are you nuts?

[Wayne Brady]

And I'm on tv, right?

[Pete Holmes]

Forget it.

[Wayne Brady]

Forget it.

[Pete Holmes]

I kind of. It's almost sad to me that like, social media, not as a whole. I'm just saying it takes away some of the allure of like the first time lots of people are watching you on a screen. You know what I mean? Because you and I are both old enough to be like, holy shit. Like, I remember I was on the news when I was a kid and you know, stay up to watch me at Fenway park just with a sign because they thought maybe I made the news and like, that's a thrill. And now you can, you know, you can be live on Instagram right now and maybe, maybe people will watch and.

[Wayne Brady]

God, it sounds like we're sliding into the old guy talk.

[Pete Holmes]

It's fine.

[Wayne Brady]

I remember when show business was about talent, so I get it. And when tea was hot when you left it out. And I get it. But we do live in a world where someone's first brush with. Well, with social media, it's either fame or infamy.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Could be. Because they are the hawk to a girl. Yeah, that's your first. That's.

[Pete Holmes]

I.

[Wayne Brady]

That's your thing. And all of a sudden, yeah, everybody knows my name. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. For about 20 minutes. Like the hide your kids, hide your wife husband too.

[Wayne Brady]

Remember he was kind of one of the Antoine Dodson.

[Pete Holmes]

By the way, that song slaps.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, you know what I'm talking about.

[Pete Holmes]

Where they, they auto change it.

[Wayne Brady]

Hide your Gibbs, hide your wife.

[Pete Holmes]

It makes me emotional because they put in like, a big chorus.

[Wayne Brady]

Because one of the first times that anyone had done that. Remember when those guys, like, that team started doing that? And that was like, at the beginning of the social media thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Funny story. Well. Well, no, not funny because I hate when folks say that. Because then. Now it's got to be funny. Not a funny story.

[Pete Holmes]

Here's a story.

[Wayne Brady]

Interesting. Here is. Here are. When. When. When Mr. Dodson broke.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

A friend of mine named Callie managed him. She had the brilliant idea. She was one of the first people at that time. It's like. You mean, there are these people whose talent is negligible or questionable, but for some reason they have this burst.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Online on this thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Ad dollars. I'll manage you. I'll help you manage your 15 minutes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And turn into something. So she worked. Worked with him. Him. I don't know, whatever really became. I don't know if he. Maybe he has a huge recording career overseas. You know, maybe there are tons of Japanese people that love.

[Pete Holmes]

Hide your kids, Hide your wife.

[Wayne Brady]

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe there's a dance remix. Hide your kids and your wife. Maybe. I don't know.

[Pete Holmes]

We can't know. Katie can look it up. Do you know where Antwan Dodson is now? Well, keep. Keep going with your story. We'll have the update.

[Wayne Brady]

And. And so she. She was one of the first to say, I'm going to be a manager in that film. And that. That's brilliant. It is. Now, I think that a lot of these kids, they are savvy enough that they do with themselves. Or now they're with. I'm. Maybe we're signed with agencies.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

That we've worked our entire lives. It's like, oh, my God, I'm with CAA or with William Morrison. And then the dude's like, so am I. I stream. I'm on Fortnite, bitch. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

I was like, well, you're right. And I cannot knock you for it. Yeah, good for you.

[Pete Holmes]

Good for you. But I remember when I saw Antoine Dodson, I think he did Kimmel or one of those. And I was kind of like, I wouldn't say sad, but you're watching, like, a Tibetan sand sculpture. Like, it's so fragile. Like, it's going to be blown away. And it's not like it was valid when it existed and invalid when it didn't exist. But, you know, he came out and he looked really good. Like, clearly they got him a stylist.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

He looked really cool. And he didn't. But the hawk to a Girl is easier because Antoine looked like he living in the projects. Right? I mean, it's harder to, like, roast this kid.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, he would.

[Pete Holmes]

I'll roast people that I think much faster.

[Wayne Brady]

That's why I can't hate on people, especially musicians and some younger comics that if that's their way in. I mean, if that had been around when we were younger, it just had been another. Yeah, we would have done another place.

[Pete Holmes]

It's like Theo Vaughn was on Road Rules. And I remember coming up, I was like, it's the guy from Road Rules.

[Wayne Brady]

Holy shit. All this time, I just.

[Pete Holmes]

You just. You were. Today he was on Road Rules. And I'm not saying, like, I actively had disdain for him, but I remember thinking that was corny, you know? And now I'm like, who cares? Any bus that pulls into the bus stop, he got on it.

[Wayne Brady]

And now anyway. And as long as now I've adopted my mindset because I was that old man in the rocker shaking his fist. But now I've seen enough talent, especially musically, I've seen enough talent self seed online that has grown into something real. Like, I don't know if you. You follow a lot of music. A guy named Teddy Swims.

[Pete Holmes]

Teddy Swims.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, my God. This is like a voice children's book. Oh, yes. Yes, it does. And Teddy swims because Penelope drowned. The end.

[Pete Holmes]

Teddy should have swam faster.

[Wayne Brady]

Teddy is so dope. But I remember meeting him online on TikTok because of his videos.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And. And following him and talk. Talking to him and then watching him blow up and watching a lot of music artists now using that as its way in. And it's accepted. I go, okay for some people in comedy. Comedy still to me, a little. If you can't ply your trade live, I don't know if I have as much respect for you.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I've seen people doing stand up on TikTok where it's clearly a fake audience. And like, they're. They're just trying to. Like, I can even hear them talking to me, being like, well, what's the difference? And I'm like, I don't know. But there is. It's like pornography and sex. I do. Of course I do, but I'm. I. You can't quite put. Can't quite. It's not easy to quantify. Meaning masturbating to a pornographic movie is a sexual thing, but it's not sex. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the chasm there. I'm like, you did technically, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

You did it.

[Pete Holmes]

You did something. But.

[Wayne Brady]

But then the difference is then you're doing it in front of other people.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, doing it when it counts. Well, this. Okay, so this brings us to you. Obviously, one of my first real fascinations with you. I've been such a fan. I. I was thinking about the first time I watched Whose Line and just being blown away. I don't think you were on the first one I watched. And I remember really being taken with Ryan. Tall, come on, big birdie kind of guy. I say that as a tall, big birdie kind of guy. So I was projecting myself onto him. He just seemed so calm. We don't need to waste too much time talking about how great Ryan was. But I remember being like, what is this? Like, I just didn't know what was happening.

[Wayne Brady]

Brilliant.

[Pete Holmes]

Then I saw you, and I was like, next level. Like, I don't mind. He would agree. There's just something going on with you. Here's a million improv questions that I can't wait to ask you.

[Wayne Brady]

Please.

[Pete Holmes]

One is, do you feel a little put out? Like, being known as a great. Like, Jonathan Winters? Like, I can do it. I can create worlds and hamstrings and rhyme. Now I'm talking about you. But, like, I can rhyme, I can sing, I can dance. I can do it. But, like, you and I both know part of the skill of improvising is you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, creating a certain atmosphere within yourself where you feel like doing that. Like, it might be a million different rituals and.

[Wayne Brady]

And places.

[Pete Holmes]

It might be a meal, might be a mood. It might just be knowing that there's a sanctioned place for it called Whose Line Is It Anyway? That's the. It's like going under your bed with a flashlight in a comic book. There you go. You know what I mean? So there's a magic appropriateness to it. But then you go on the morning radio. I go on morning radio. Nobody says, like, let's drop a beat. Nobody.

[Wayne Brady]

Nobody asked you to come on. All right. It's Jimmy and the eagle. It's 6am playing the Tempe Improv. One of my favorite guys here, he's. He's been on hbo. Yeah. With his sitcom Sleeping. Sleeping. Love the show Sleeping. And, man, I can see them reading the Wikipedia page and. Great theology school. God. God bless you. So. So, Pete. Well, welcome to Tempe. So what's it like? It's pretty damn hot here, huh, Pete? You got a joke for that?

[Pete Holmes]

See, I used to think that was pressure and I wonder if this is how you feel about improvising now. I'm just like my move there. Which isn't available in the world of musical improv specifically, which is what people really want you to do. A lot of the time I have to imagine I can just say, like, what kind of question is that? It's 7am I'm trying to sell tickets in Tempe. It's hot. I was asleep 45 minutes ago. You think I'm just gonna turn it on for you in your bald spot.

[Wayne Brady]

I do the same thing, right?

[Pete Holmes]

What do you mean?

[Wayne Brady]

I do that exactly. But it took me a while years to learn that I had that right.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

That I didn't have to. That. That I had to learn. And I don't want to turn into self. Self help time. But I.

[Pete Holmes]

It is self help time. It's the show.

[Wayne Brady]

Learn a lot. Yay. It is.

[Pete Holmes]

You're in the right lane.

[Wayne Brady]

But the tools that I needed to develop because to this very day, I've just come to the point where I've accepted that I am very, very good at this art. I'm not going to say I'm the best because there's always somebody else. But you know what I'll even own. In my experience so far in working with other improvisers that do musical improvisation and whatnot, A, I know that I'm looked at as an OG in that world. And B, whatever the peculiar little skill sets that stacked on top of each other that God gave me that led to me being able to do this lane. I know that I'm great at this. Cool. Just came to that point a while ago because to own it. You mean to own it. Because I wouldn't let myself. Because I felt that I was never supposed to be here doing that. When I auditioned for Whose line. I was in a group called the House Full of Honkies. And we moved out here from Orlando, Florida.

[Pete Holmes]

Is it all black group? No, because that would be funny.

[Wayne Brady]

Which is. Yes. But we thought it was funny because it was all. It was six white people and me.

[Pete Holmes]

Reverse Living Color.

[Wayne Brady]

So. Right. So the house full of honkies. Truth and advertising. So we all moved out here together, including my buddy Jonathan Mangum, that co host, let's Make a Deal with Me. And he's. He's a. Whose line Regular too. So we moved out here.

[Pete Holmes]

Is he the kind of like. He looks like a greaser.

[Wayne Brady]

Greaser.

[Pete Holmes]

Ah, forget it. Sorry. I thought that would be a quick yes.

[Wayne Brady]

I didn't want to be no He's. He's a mint. If. If you had to type him.

[Pete Holmes]

Bowling shirts.

[Wayne Brady]

Love your. Your big bird. He's the other big. He's the more handsome big bird that kind of is Ryan, but. But a couple inches shorter.

[Pete Holmes]

Okay, I bet I know him. I just wanted to give him some respect.

[Wayne Brady]

They used to make Doogie Howser jokes, but. But he is kind of Ryan esque.

[Pete Holmes]

O.

[Wayne Brady]

That the thing. Even when I was in the group, I never gave myself the grace that I belonged in the group. I felt unfunny because I never intended to be funny. I started taking improv classes in Orlando with this group called SAC Theater because my friend Claire that I met said, you're funny. You ought to come take improv class. For myself, my husband. What's improv? Oh, it's improvised theater where you make it up. I said, oh, that's what I do at home. Hahaha. So I always did it as a way to find community and a way to just keep sharp and stay on stage. But I never thought I was funny. I always played my role, which I was the seventh guy in back. You guys be the stars in this. Me, I'm the actor. I do Shakespeare. I've actually toured and done the Bard. I do serious things. I. Blah, blah, blah. I had that thing in my head.

[Pete Holmes]

And you'll support it. Like structurally, I help the narrative because you guys don't know.

[Wayne Brady]

I absolutely would say some pretentious shit like that in my mind. It's like, like, no, if you need. Need a story, I'll help with the narrative and I'll boo you. And your choices lead you to say. I was like, that's the guy. Because when I move out to la, I'm gonna audition because I've already worked. I'm gonna audition and maybe I'll get on a soap or something, but then a sitcom or a drama. That's what I really want is I want to be like Denzel. And then I'll go to Broadway. Maybe I'll do stuff like this, all that stuff. So when I find myself at Whose Line Callbacks I really. The imposter syndrome started there in the room because I was like, what the. Why am I here? I am not funny.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Wayne Brady]

I am smart. I am smart and I can rhyme fast and I'm fast and I know all the things processing and I'm great at characters, I guess if it. But I'm not funny. I know what that show's about. It's like if you do a game, World's Worst person to take on a bus. That scares the out of me. I don't know who's the world's worst person to take on a bus? Why am I here? And I got the show. And for years every time I showed up, I still would show up like why am I really talking to me? Why am I doing this? Why am I. I don't understand why you people are do. I couldn't take it in. I could not accept that gift. In fact I fought it. So much so that cut back to the radio host. Hey Wayne, you're playing the Tempe improv, so. Okay, okay, so tell me, me and the Eagle, we want to know is that stuff really made up? We got a caller on line one. He don't make that shit up. Hey Wayne, Merv said you don't make it up. Let's put on a beat. Hey Casey, can you does some anemic beatbox at six in the morning like okay, smokes. Ok, here we go, here we go. Yo, yo, six o'. Clock. I'm hungry like a dog, maybe a beagle. I'm sitting here with the Eagle. You got the sound effects and haha tap dance for you. Haha. Yeah, great. At some point I got fed up because I didn't want to be a one trick pony. I didn't want to be respected just for that. Just for whose line? Just for. So I learned that answer in the.

[Pete Holmes]

Sense of the roasty answer.

[Wayne Brady]

Enough pride.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Pride slash roast.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Not to hurt feelings.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no, no.

[Wayne Brady]

But hey, Wayne, is 6 o'. Clock. Yeah, it is 6 o'. Clock. Well, we're going to throw no, because I want the people listening that are going to pay tickets to come and see me picture what I do on Whose Line? And you're going to be seeing that live. If I do it here for you. Right now you trying to beatbox in your studio and you doing the thing. Yeah, I can do it, but it's not going to be what I do. So I'm not going to cheat these people out of what I do because what I do is fucking amazing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, there you go. That's right. But it took you a while to own that it's funny. Nobody you don't get a laminated comedy id, you know what I mean? That's kind of what I feel. You saying like you were waiting for someone, just as I was. So much of the 10 years, the first 10 years of comedy is like waiting for someone to say like you're a comedian, you're one of us. And you're funny. You know, I never.

[Wayne Brady]

Welcome to the club.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, well, welcome to the club. And that's why we're always. We're obsessed with our peers, opinions of us and all that and credits and all these things.

[Wayne Brady]

But I'd imagine. And on camera, I'm gonna. Because I was talking to you back. I am such a fan.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh.

[Wayne Brady]

Like when I tell you, I. I think I. I started watching when you first broke onto the scene, and. And really, though, when. When you started doing your sitcom, and then when I researched that it was your story and. And it was your thing, and you were.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that's a lot of imposter syndrome in that show. Yeah, that's.

[Wayne Brady]

That's why I think I connected with you so much, because when I was watching, it's like, oh, I'm not the only one.

[Pete Holmes]

No, no, no.

[Wayne Brady]

That feels this way.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And you gave people a glimpse into the life of somebody who does something such a subjective art as comedy.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

That I'm gonna make a room full of people laugh. The audacity.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. The gall.

[Wayne Brady]

The gall that I. If there's a hundred people here, 100 of you will laugh.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm gonna make all of you laugh.

[Pete Holmes]

It's true insanity until you realize. But can you talk about when you. There is a moment, there's like a membrane you cross through, because I. I now am on the other side of this membrane. And now people just think you're a funny person. And by the way, all the. Not even haters, but people that are analyzing and trying to understand comedy, maybe trying to do it on their own, they watch and they go, that wasn't that funny. Like, I used to analyze Seinfeld's records, and he had a line, and it gets this huge laugh. I'm like, it's not that funny because you go to open mic, you say the same line. Nobody's going to laugh. But there is a membrane. You. You find your voice, and then you're sanctioned. And. And now I go on morning radio, and they're just. They're just happier there and they're primed now. You're not just a person. And when I do stand up, you're not just a person. They're your fans, and they're like, we know. We know you're a spiritual person. We know you're this way. We know. And then they're ready to go. You work so hard, which is.

[Wayne Brady]

Hey, folks. Yeah, this is me. Let me tell you about me. Like me. Like me.

[Pete Holmes]

It's 15 years of every opener has to joke, every opening joke has to explain who you are and your perspective. That's where I got jokes. Like, I know it's weird that I'm here. I look like a youth pastor. You have to say that right off the bat and be like, and I still kind of do it. But you had to be like, it's weird for me to be out this late. You know, it's like Ray Romano stuff. You have to say like, oh, you know my kids. Yeah, you have to. Now you go.

[Wayne Brady]

Whose life is like mine?

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

Because of his kids.

[Pete Holmes]

Right, exactly. And Seinfeld had jokes where he goes, I'm not gay, but I'm thin, clean and neat. You know, like he'd have to like explain who he is. That's a. That's a lot of information in there. Thin, clean, neat.

[Wayne Brady]

But the. But the information that I think and not having done a lot of stand up or started now when my act, I do incorporate a bit of stand. Stand up.

[Pete Holmes]

But.

[Wayne Brady]

But in watching Masters of Stand Stand up and appreciating a well crafted joke, it's when someone says, oh, well, I'm funny. That's cool. And like when I teach an improv class, someone goes, well, I can do that. And I'm funny. It's like, that's great. I'm not taking away from you. But you also have to understand that there is a science. And whether you're willing to study the science or not, I think that's what separates the people that are great at this subjective. Well, that's because you've studied it.

[Pete Holmes]

Look, sorry, that brings us back to TikTok. There's a big difference to Saturday. You had your coffee, you're with your friends, you're laughing, you're in the zone because you're in the most comfortable place for you. You pick up the phone and you shoot that sketch. That's where a lot of magic comes from. But you and I against old guy alert. It's like show business is being funny at Friday at 8 o'. Clock. Or if it's not that, it's being funny at 11am on Hollywood Squares.

[Wayne Brady]

Showing up, show up.

[Pete Holmes]

And that brings me back to the other thing I'm fascinated to talk to you about is you seem to relate or resonate with the idea that we all have like a way to. It's almost like conjuring up a spirit of playfulness. You could say, like, I want to be that version of Wayne. We've already talked about he did the Bard, Shakespeare. There's all these different flavors. Now I'm going to go out and I'm going to dazzle. I'm going to. I'm going to show off. And when I say show off, I don't mean in a bad way. I mean like that's what they want me to do. Do the thing. So you're in your green room or it's a day, you're going to tape who's line or you have your show that night. Is there anything that you can tell me? How do you prime yourself to be in that mood, to want? Because you and I both know there's certain, like Saturdays you're with your family and you're having a great time and you do. There's a. There's an instrumental song on the radio. I do this. You just start freestyling because you're happy.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

It's just, it's. How do you bring it out when maybe you. Maybe you're jet lag. Maybe you're doing a show in Melbourne, Australia. Wayne, how do we. How do we bring out that spirit?

[Wayne Brady]

I think, I think it's different for each of us. I don't do anything specific. I think my switch is. And this has changed from time to time as you get older. My switch is just being there. And I can operate at a level of gratitude that I wasn't capable of before, and that unlocks it for me. So I'm being very, very specific. Yeah. So if I am backstage, whether it is at the Tempe Improv or at a big theater or like when I leave here, I'm gonna go tape, tape, tape, tape an episode of After Midnight.

[Pete Holmes]

There you go.

[Wayne Brady]

When I'm backstage, I don't have a ritual. Except now. Now I'm dressed up, I'm ready to go. I know what's expected of me.

[Pete Holmes]

Yep.

[Wayne Brady]

Isn't it cool that no matter what else else just happened, isn't it cool that there are enough people that go, we got Wayne Brady on the show and when he comes out, oh my God, he's. I'm. He's gonna kill. I don't know what he's gonna do, but he's gonna kill it. Yeah, I know that.

[Pete Holmes]

But you think about that consciously and.

[Wayne Brady]

I think about that consciously and I have a level of gratitude now of like, wow, who knew you could never have told me that I would be able to walk into certain doors and rooms and people are. Are happy by me walking in. Yeah, you arrived in anticipation.

[Pete Holmes]

I have an opener about that this is the only job. You show up and people are already clapping. Yeah, I just arrived. Yeah, I just arrived. That's an. That's a preposterous job.

[Wayne Brady]

That's.

[Pete Holmes]

And it's something to be grateful for and also to join you. So gratitude being the opposite of fear. I don't know if you've heard that. You can't feel afraid and grateful at the same time.

[Wayne Brady]

No.

[Pete Holmes]

So when I'm about to go out, I go, I can't believe one person showed up. I say that every time I go, I can't believe one person showed up.

[Wayne Brady]

That.

[Pete Holmes]

And it sounds like an ego trip, but I actually, I don't think it is to think, Think about a couple sometimes. I just did Pittsburgh and people were like, we drove from Ohio. So I'm like, these people drove your Santa, San Diego, length two hours. They're driving two hours to go to the show. It's their night. They got a sitter, they got a hotel. That's a big deal. And you think about that. Suddenly you're not anxious anymore. And that, you know, that feeds into why you don't feel like you need to dance for the dj because really you're just, you know, exit from being.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, man. It stops it from being about you. Which as the professor.

[Pete Holmes]

That's exactly right.

[Wayne Brady]

Ironic. Thing is. Yes, of course it's about you. Your name is on the marquee. You do this whole thing. Yes, objectively, it's about you. But the way that I can look at it now after all these years, it used to be when I first started touring because to my knowledge, and if I. And if this can be refuted, cool, just tag me or hit me. To my knowledge, outside of like the Second City touring shows. When I started touring right after Whose Line blew Up and I talked to my agent, Stacy, I said, I want to tour like a stand up. I want to show up at these comedy clubs and theaters doing improvisation. I was one of the first people to tour doing improv. Like just doing that. That was the thing. Folks were showing up in droves to see that guy from TV make stuff up. Just pull a show out your ass. Yeah, I wanted to do it at first, until the first night when I show up on oh, I have to do an improv show. And I'm not with my group, the House Full of Honkies being the seventh guy in line, they're expecting. So it's me. And I took a couple of my friends along with me to try to duplicate the whose line format. I Was still playing with. With. What do I do on stage. I hated every one of those shows.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Because the pressure was so. I felt it like, I have to make you laugh. I have to make you laugh so much.

[Pete Holmes]

You want to be a surprise.

[Wayne Brady]

You have to be.

[Pete Holmes]

You want to sneak in and be. And steal the show.

[Wayne Brady]

Look at that.

[Pete Holmes]

There's such a difference. I think about this all the time. It's a phenomenon in show business. Being the relief. Being the guy. Like, you're like, I'm on a show. Let's say I'm at the comedy. I'm at the Comedy store tonight. There's 12 comics and you go up fifth, and you're the surprise best one. That's so fun.

[Wayne Brady]

It's him.

[Pete Holmes]

And. And you were the best. Let's just say you just brought it. That's so different from being like. And the ticket was 40 bucks. And you bet. You better be the best one.

[Wayne Brady]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

Totally different energy. You have to do it.

[Wayne Brady]

There's a lot.

[Pete Holmes]

So you went from being like the. The. Not the relief, but there is some anxiety when you watch whose line. You're like, please be good. And there's a relief when you would come in. So there's. That's part of the enjoyment. And then you murder. Very different from I bought a ticket. Now. Now go.

[Wayne Brady]

So kind of a nightmare and do it. And I know the first couple years that I toured, I lost friends. I lost friends. Doing what now knowing, you know, I'm a big advocate for mental health and I talk a lot about my journey. Everything. I know now what I was going through with my depression and also the ADHD and. And a host of other things that that guy on stage who is supposed to be playing. I'm doing improv. I'm supposed to be playing and having a good time for you. Was so angry that if anyone on stage with me, any of my buddies made a choice in a scene that in my mind, I've already written scenes as we're doing them because this is the maximum funny. This is the only way it's gonna be funny. You didn't do it. You didn't do it. The show sucked and they gonna hate me. And.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, and going to bed with that anxiety and then getting up with that anxiety and then taking that. I was miserable. I was miserable. I was absolutely.

[Pete Holmes]

I know exactly what you're. Believe it or not, my improv career. Very different level. But once you start taking it seriously, the shadow side of that art form and wanting. It's one of the Reasons I don't like doing it anymore because I will be like a little obsessive, like, or on myself, actually. I'll be like, oh, fuck, they said this. I said that. I ruined the scene. I should have said this. I went for a cheap laugh. I. I'll replay it for weeks and weeks and weeks.

[Wayne Brady]

You have to let that go.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, exactly. But it sounded like you needed to learn how to do that.

[Wayne Brady]

I had to learn. Thank God for therapy. Yeah, thank you. Thank God.

[Pete Holmes]

When did you start going? Oh, go ahead.

[Wayne Brady]

No, it's. I started going. I wish I could say I started going a while after all that happened. Really. I didn't take therapy seriously until 10 years ago.

[Pete Holmes]

You were kind of gaming in a little bit.

[Wayne Brady]

I was gaming the system.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

I spent so much money in various therapists office doing the thing. I think that people who think that they're smarter than the person with the degree. Sit down.

[Pete Holmes]

So you were doing the scene thing with them. It's like, well, you should have said this then. You really. You got. Would have got me to cry, but you went that way.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah. So. So I'll tell. Tell you what I think you want to hear. Oh, and now I feel better. Yeah, thanks.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

Didn't. Didn't work, of course. And.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And I became better on stage enough to figure out what my thing was and how I could stop obsessing and begin to have fun. And. And so I was actually having a good time. I actually became a good, good scene.

[Pete Holmes]

Scene partner instead of just the madman.

[Wayne Brady]

Instead of the mad crazy man.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. The orchestrator. The director.

[Wayne Brady]

Right. And I didn't have to be the director. If, if you're with people that you trust. Which is why I love being on stage with Ryan and Colin and like Greg Proops and my buddy Jonathan. It's. It's such a relief, you know, that if you throw something up, they got you. They've. They've. They've got you. And you know that thing. Thing that improvisers and sketch. Sketch guys say. You say, you know, the. They got your back.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And for someone like me, who. My stage Persona is radically different than the Wayne at home. Not sad, sad clown, but I'm a fairly uptight and serious person. Yeah. Who retreats into his books. I have to read my books and I write and I do my whole thing, basically. You know, in therapy when they say that we're always trying to heal our inner child and we're trying to play and do the. When I'm on stage doing improv, Or I'm performing or even having fun with you. Now this is Lil Wayne getting a chance to play with another kid, inviting him out. Because I didn't get a chance to play with other kids much. Yeah, yeah. So I get to play with other kids and I get to have fun. And. And.

[Pete Holmes]

And that's the thrill of it.

[Wayne Brady]

And that's the thrill.

[Pete Holmes]

You repair it.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what feels good. And that's why I do that little prayer of gratitude. Because I'm like, oh, if I've done nothing right in therapy and learned a lot about myself, at least I have learned to have fun doing this thing that I enjoy doing. And that little guy can. Where else do you get paid a buttload of money if you reach a certain point to walk on stage and go, you give me a city. And now I'm just gonna make up a song about being in your city. Okay, fine. That's silly. It's stupid. And then I get to pretend to be a bat. Or now I'm jumping off making sound effects. It's ludicrous. But in the ridiculousness of it, I found joy.

[Pete Holmes]

I hear all of that. And with. Because I'm doing some trauma work currently. Parts work, so child self and all the protectors and all of that. And I'm realizing now what we're both doing with that gratitude going like, I can't believe one person showed up. Really. There's another way to phrase. Phrase that and say the same thing, which is I'm saying to my child self, like, look, look, look. To me, trauma work is all just look. It's like you're looking this way. You're looking at the past. You're looking at the present like it's the past. And trauma work feels like this. Someone just going, just look. Look at your family, look at your job. Look at your life. Look at your present moment. You know what I mean?

[Wayne Brady]

Because you've been shocked into. Of course, whatever the trauma was, was shocked into. So using the analogy of looking, you can't look around if you're like this.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's right.

[Wayne Brady]

The entire time dealing with whatever's in front of you.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. You're paralyzed. Fight. It's all fight, flight, freeze. Right? So you're. Or Fawn is another one. But you're also like, I think if I stop looking at this, my mother will die or something. You know what I mean? It's like BJ Novak has this incredible joke. I quote it all the time. It's one of those. It's A made up premise. So I take slight fault. I'll deduct points for that. Meaning a comedian says a premise and you're like, that's not real. But it doesn't matter. It's a great joke. He's like, sometimes when I'm on an airplane, I look next to the guy and go, next to me and I go, do you think I can crash this plane just by thinking about it? Which is a great joke. And the reason I love it is because, yeah, most of us think we can crash a plane just by thinking about it. Most of us are keeping bolstering up all sorts of realities. Whether or not this is like a. That's like a OCD thing. Like when it's overt and you really know if I don't touch this, my family will die. But I think in a much subtler way, Child Pete is like, I can't leave the house. Like, I can't leave the house I grew up in. Mom needs me. And you're going and talk about money. Spent a lot of money going like, you don't live there and you don't live there anymore and you haven't been there and they haven't died. So that's not true.

[Wayne Brady]

But that was your job.

[Pete Holmes]

That was my job.

[Wayne Brady]

Exactly. That was your self ascribed job.

[Pete Holmes]

And it takes a lot of programming to believe that that's your job. And it takes a lot of unprogramming, it seems to believe that that' ear job. So when Wayne goes like, holy shit. People want me to just sing a song about Pittsburgh. That is you inviting your child self to go like, look, whatever you were frozen in fear over isn't happening anymore. This is happening. This is happening. And I got you. I got you. You took Child Wayne to that show. You know what I mean? Sometimes after I do trauma work, I lift weights because I just want to show my child self how strong I am. He loves it like I'm my own dad. You know when your dad's arms. Holy shit. You punch him in the stomach. I just want to show him.

[Wayne Brady]

No, no, I don't.

[Pete Holmes]

Tell me about that.

[Wayne Brady]

No, I don't. Which is no, dad. Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I mean, obviously you had a yes. There was sperm involved, but no father.

[Wayne Brady]

I was created in a comedy laboratory.

[Pete Holmes]

Drew Carey with a lab coat.

[Wayne Brady]

Hey, look at that. I made a black guy. Thanks, Drew. Thanks. Thanks, Drew.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what he would say too.

[Wayne Brady]

He would.

[Pete Holmes]

I made a black guy. Okay, all right. When I did Hollywood Squares, real sidebar because we were about to go to A really interesting place. I said that Drew Carey was wearing a jacket. I go, you look like you sell magic in a shop down by the pier. And he goes, he didn't miss a beat. He goes, you look like you buy magic in the shop down at the pier. And I'm like, it was such a dog sniffing each other butt comedian mutual respect moment.

[Wayne Brady]

That's true.

[Pete Holmes]

I don't know him. I don't know him that well. And I'm making. He's in a square above me. I'm making fun of him and he makes fun of me back. I was like, that's how we say hello. You know what I mean? Isn't that cool?

[Wayne Brady]

But yeah, I love that.

[Pete Holmes]

But you're happy when to. To be outdrawn by Drew Carey. So anyway, no dad.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, right. Going back to that. No, it.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I laugh because of the absurdity of this segue, not the situation.

[Wayne Brady]

I did have a father. And I also say to say that because at any point I love to flip any racist stereotypes or tropes. So suck it. Any racist watching who. Who love to dig into the. The thing about black men and their families. My, my father was not physically around because he was in the military and he was a combat engineer. So he was always being moved around. He fought in Nam, did a couple tours and then from there was always someplace. And he made the choice early on to ask my grandmother to raise me so that I'd have the same upbringing that he did. My. In a nutshell, my, my folks on my dad's side are from the US Virgin Islands, from St Thomas and from St Thomas and St Croix. Very strict island up upbringing. Education is very, you know, pretty much an immigrant mentality. So, so, so education is par. Is paramount. And, and so I was raised by my grandmother at his behest. So I wasn't raised around my mother either. So those are all the issues that I'm working on now. And if you want to see me work on them, check out my show Wayne Brady the Family Remix on Hulu Streaming now and on Freeform. Edit that out. So that's all the shit that I deal with.

[Pete Holmes]

You know, your show's incredible. People should absolutely be watching the Family.

[Wayne Brady]

Remix because I'm trying to.

[Pete Holmes]

You think it's just like a celebrity show and you're like, oh no, I've never seen anything like this. Just to give it a little plug.

[Wayne Brady]

This was prime.

[Pete Holmes]

It wasn't something you could do. It's something you should do. It's very interesting.

[Wayne Brady]

You should do It I did the show and I tell people, you know, in a way I did the show. Well we did the show as a family for reasons. I did the show for self accountability. I was like, you know what if it takes a friggin TV show for me to say X, Y and Z truths. Yeah then I'm gonna do that.

[Pete Holmes]

That's like Jarrod.

[Wayne Brady]

Did you watch Jarrod show that was so deep.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And wasn't even funny.

[Pete Holmes]

No.

[Wayne Brady]

And personally awkward like, like folk folks online were always it's cringing is awkward. Said yeah, yeah, supposed to be.

[Pete Holmes]

But he couldn't confront his dad without making it a show. And his dad was kind of like calling him out on that and that's the part I always remember. And Gerard's like yeah, this is how I had to do it.

[Wayne Brady]

That's his way.

[Pete Holmes]

The only way I could.

[Wayne Brady]

Which I completely get. Yeah, I completely get that. So I was raised, raised by my grandmother. So my dad was always a satellite presence and I love being a father so so much and I'm such a hands on dad. It boggles my mind because I didn't know him well and I didn't get a chance to talk to him before he passed about wanting to be around his son and because I couldn't imagine, I could not imagine being. Not being in the same place as my kid and seeing these moments like hey, punch me, teach me to shave all that stuff. He was over here. So if he's in Germany, either I get a new pair of shoes from dad which, which thanks the thanks thanks dad or a hat from Stuttgart or something or, or Wayne, listen to me or blah blah blah or I call your dad. That's not getting on a plane to come into that next day. Knock knock. No hey Junior. That six foot two, big old GI Joe beats my ass because that's the old school that we come from. So in my mind my dad was a satellite for. For taking care of me monetarily and discipline, not love.

[Pete Holmes]

They'd call with the bat signal.

[Wayne Brady]

They were calling with the bat signal.

[Pete Holmes]

And there were times to have been planning that trip home anyway.

[Wayne Brady]

No, I know my dad.

[Pete Holmes]

There are certain he flew home just to discipline you.

[Wayne Brady]

Because my dad loved his mom and. And I have enough of my dad in me now to get him, you know that. Because I would probably do the same thing he, he would because I was a good kid. It isn't like I did a lot of things but my household was so strict that even me talking back a little bit like in my house yes, sir. No, ma'. Am. Chores. The whole nine. You do that. You the old. Go, go get me a switch. Or it's a leather belt or what. Not that type of upbringing. So me staying out because now I'm 14 or 15 and we all kids always push. No, Mom, I want to stay out. Grandma, dad, don't talk to me. Well, I want to. Oh, you do. Playing smack. So my whole thing of him was, dad either is gonna take care of me.

[Pete Holmes]

Sorry.

[Wayne Brady]

Or he's gonna beat my ass.

[Pete Holmes]

I think about your dad checking in and they're like, are you business or travel? I'm going to beat my son.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, we've upgraded you, sir. We've given you more leg and arm room so you can practice your swing.

[Pete Holmes]

And find a switch in the overhead compartment.

[Wayne Brady]

Thank you so much. In the event of you having a 16 year old, there's a belt, you're like, oh, and there's a phone cord.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, no.

[Wayne Brady]

So I grew up with this disciplinarian that was. Oh, over here. And. And also who. When I decided to start acting when I was 16, I made that choice and I started working professionally. They didn't love it because I wasn't going to school. I. And I didn't go to college. I dropped out. I. I ditched all of the scholarships that, that I had caused a whole big fracas. Like one of those after school special things. You don't understand. You don't know. Son of mine is nigger. Well, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna act. Immigrants.

[Pete Holmes]

Immigrants.

[Wayne Brady]

It's that thing. Yeah, it's that thing. And now I understand where they came from because I want nothing but the best for my daughter. She's at Loyola. She's getting her degree. She's got an office to do things like, please don't drop out to. Do I get them now. But then we did this. It wasn't until I was 21 and that I. That I was shooting a show in Conyers, Georgia, in the Heat of the Night, the old TV series with Carol o', Connor. That was like, dad, I made it. And my dad called me. He's like, son, I'm only 15 minutes up, up the road. I'm living in this other town. I got to visit him. He was on the phone with one of his army buddies. Hey, Junior's in town and he's on a TV show and he's doing this. So even just that little bit of approval from him, that's how dads do. It was so hard.

[Pete Holmes]

They have to say to someone Else.

[Wayne Brady]

They can't say it to you. So he never got to see all the other stuff, but at least he saw that. And so even in the trauma work, I realized that so much of my career and even life is trying to be seen and liked by the other kids who didn't see and like me trying to be seen and liked by my family.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. So did you make, as I did, the association that being special was being safe?

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

I like your face.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes. Now. Now, I watched you go like, oh, hell yeah, dude. Now. Now add the layer of being special is safe. Now add the level of being raised in the south and being a young black kid who. Who, when you're saddled with the mantle of special, because I was in the gifted program, as one of the only kids bust out of my school and raised in this and all these things, and you're being told that your worth is, oh, you're a good one. You're special. You're like this. You're not like the other ones. You're this. So as much as I hated it because that tastes like racism, I still took it because it was validating. You were also a child, and I was a child.

[Pete Holmes]

You're a child. That is a very sophisticated thing to.

[Wayne Brady]

And it was very validating to go, okay, well, maybe I am special, and this is the only thing that makes me good. I need more of this.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

So then I just transferred that from academics into. To being on stage.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And then the fact that my family didn't really support me at first. I spent so much time going, hey, look at me. Look at what I'm doing now. I'm really good at this. I'm really, really good at this. Until right. At some point, the ceilings crack and they go, oh, we love it.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Wayne Brady]

And. And I go, thank you. I love you too.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. This is what I always ask, because this comes up from time to time, this exact phenomenon. Did it help them understand? In my case, it. You had to say a number. Like, if you were doing a show, it was fine. But if you go there, giving me $50,000 to do that show, then that's when the applause came. Did they understand just the accolades, or did it have to be financial?

[Wayne Brady]

With my grandma, God bless her, she. She really was my fan, and she really did love me. She just didn't understand. Once she saw, though, I think once she. It went from, oh, that's. That's nice that he. He's on stage. That's. That's. Oh, the funny. And you jump up and down. You do to. I guess when it finally hit her that other people saw me in a certain light. For her, it wasn't even about the money. It was respect. It was the respect. And I think for someone of her generation, yes, the money did matter. But getting respect also took a bit of worry off of her plate, I think.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Because I think to a certain point, she really did believe that if I didn't. If you don't go to college, you don't have a degree, you don't have a job, then I worry about you because you're not going to make it.

[Pete Holmes]

But what is college really is? It's like. Seems to me like a slower, less condensed version of what show business can do in success. College is like building relationship and building skills. People who will help you. A professor, you meet a classmate, you start a business. It's all. There's a huge social component to it. And once you start getting recognized, there is this, like, very basic feeling. Like, people know Wayne. They won't let him starve. You know what I mean? Like, they'll take care of him. Like, if they. If they're excited to see you, that means he can. It's like my dad always used to say, if you could play piano, you'll never starve. That's what you'll always be able to work. If you can play them.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

So now they're seeing you.

[Wayne Brady]

And that's a piano. Oh, he's fine now. Because.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

People like. Yeah, they like him.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And that really took a lot of work, I think, on her part, to change the mindset of. Because I think that it's just the part of the American dream. Yeah. That you go to college and especially for an immigrant and immigrant fam. The family. You're black. You're from the south, you're young. I've got this paper that.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Wayne Brady]

So many. You know, because we're so much wrapped into our culture of. Of. At least this paper says that I've made it, that I'm doing something that men and Men and women for decades and decades have died to get this paper. That at one point, I could never have imagined someone letting me read and write. So. So I think for. For. For a lot of black families, it just isn't as simple as, why aren't you going to college? It's, why aren't you going to college? Don't you understand? So I had a lot of guilt around that, too. So I needed to succeed to prove to them that I was okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, you had to go to college for your ancestry. Basically.

[Wayne Brady]

Like, we've been.

[Pete Holmes]

My, my wife and I have been thinking a lot about like generational trauma and how it's like passed down like the sins of the father and all these things. So it's like when you go to college, the whole line goes to college. When you didn't go to college, the whole line didn't go to college.

[Wayne Brady]

And I'm living that dream right now.

[Pete Holmes]

With your daughter?

[Wayne Brady]

My daughter, yeah. And it was.

[Pete Holmes]

You were like, just give me one more generation.

[Wayne Brady]

It's so weird.

[Pete Holmes]

I gotta sing some songs with you. Carey.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, give me one, please, please. But the day that she was able to turn to me, I think it was after she got in which shout out to my daughter Maile. She did her whole college process herself. She. Because at that point she'd entered a realm where I had no experience. I just had experience that 16 year old Wayne kind of started. But she was doing this thing on her own. So at one point we were having this discussion and she turned to me and she goes, that's not how college works. So you wouldn't understand. And I got you don't talk to your father. And then I went, oh, no. First dial it back. And secondly, she's right, Wayne. You don't know. Your image of college comes from School Days by Spike Lee and the. And back to School with Rodney Dangerfield and School Ties. So shut up, Wayne Brady.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow.

[Wayne Brady]

Shut up.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, that's progress right there. That moment, those little repair moments, or even stopping it, like just that's. That's the next generation of dads right there. Good on you. That's incredible. You guys know I'm obsessed with ways to strengthen my immunity and my gut health as well as my fitness, my endurance, my metabolism, as well as hair and skin radiance. And I recently discovered one product that does all of that. And it couldn't be easier to add into your daily routine. Talking about armor Colostrum. Colostrum is the first nutrition we receive in life and it contains all of the essential nutrients our bodies need to thrive. I'm talking about reactivating hair growth and glowing skin by reducing inflammation and puffiness. Talking about igniting your metabolism and fortifying gut health so you feel less bloated. That is a huge one for me. I feel it go down. I just feel my stomach feel lighter and definitely less bloated. While replenishing your microbiome, stabilizing blood sugar and accelerating fat burning, which is so helpful for me with cravings as well as fueling your fitness, performance and recovery armor. Colostrum is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses over 400 living bioactive nutrients that rebuild the barriers of your body and fuel cellular health for a host of research backed health benefits. It's natural, it's sustainable and was developed with the highest integrity grass fed in the United States and they guarantee the highest potency and bioavailability of any Colostrum on the market. For results that you can see and actually feel, both Val and I take it every single day. I just use my own promo code to order a big old tub of it because we love it. Receive 15% off special offer for weirdos go to tryarmra.com weird or enter weird at checkout for 15% off your first order. That's t r yeah a r m r a dot com weird we're also brought to us by our friends at Brain fm. Brain FM has been a huge part of my creative routine. I throw on these headphones, I open the app and I drop into flow state. I dial in, literally signaling to my brain that it is time to work. On the surface, Brain FM seems just like the perfect work music. An app that plays you lo fi electronic or soundscapes or nature or cinematic kind of sounds. And on one level that's what it is. But underneath, Brain FM's composers work hard to add patterns to the music underneath that change the patterns in your brain, creating increased blood flow and electrical activity in the brain, increasing focus in as little as five minutes. Brain FM actually has the scientific research to back up these claims through close collaboration with neuroscientists and a wide array of field experiments and testing. And I can tell you it is the best. It dials me in. It signals to my brain literally that it's time to get creating. It's time to get working, relaxing, meditating, falling asleep. They have settings for all of it. Regular music is designed to be distracting. Brain FM is the better way and it's made by humans, not computers, actual composers that they add these sounds in that you will see a difference. So go to Brain FM/weird for 30% off one year of Brain FM. Start getting more done with less effort and unlock your best self on demand. Experience the difference that the right music can make in your life with Brain fm. Brain FM Slash Weird. All right everybody back to the show. So you're one of the good ones. That phrase hurt my heart and then your blackness, if I can say, became this thing. I'm sure you've talked about this A lot like Chappelle Show. Wayne Brady looked like Malcolm X sort of thing.

[Wayne Brady]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

So when that was called into question, was that particularly pointed for you?

[Wayne Brady]

Always. Always. And it hurts. And even now, I wish I could say, because in therapy and in programs, right. You only can control yourself. I still. I still have a hard time that every blue moon, I'll be scrolling online and some site, a black site, has one of the interviews that I've done breaking down the joke, and I feel that I've done a good job.

[Pete Holmes]

What do you mean, breaking down the joke?

[Wayne Brady]

At explaining why I didn't find Paul Mooney's joke funny.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And how it was that. The initial cat, the catalyst, I'm grateful for, because if it wasn't for him making that dumb joke, then I wouldn't have been able to respond with Dave and write that sketch with him and Neil, which is a classic. And I'm glad I got to do that because, hell, yeah, that was great. But even now, when I see someone talking and I read comments, which is like, he. Well, if you're funny, Mr. Funny man is just a joke, or see the fact that you're mad about it, that's why you're white. I was like, that doesn't make sense. So.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

But. But stupid things. And that's. And that's the minority, pardon the pun, that that's the minority of the minority. It's not everyone's view, which I used to in my own head. That's how everyone feels about me. So I've got to fight. So I spent so many years of my career in life always fighting.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a strange thing to have sort of stapled to the. The hem of your coat, you know?

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You've got this great career, and there is something about it being Paul Mooney. Meaning. Do you find it significant that it's a black person making a joke about a black person? Meaning if a white person had made that joke, it'd be like, yikes.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, well, it would have been doubly worse. But to me, and I'll explain it in a smaller fashion, the reason why it was not a great joke to me, some other people found it funny, is that in this world, in this country, where the American black person has had a very specific experience versus any other black culture in the world, a very specific experience here, when we say through the trauma of slavery and other things that were injected and then laid upon us, when we look at another black person who is doing X, Y or Z, whether they're a Doctor Whether they're an actor, whether they're whatever. And we question their blackness, first of all. And I say, what is your blackness? What is your blackness? But I get it from, from the earliest time, if, if a slave was shown any type of exception and removed from, from this group, of course the ones left would go, well, now I'm suspicious of you because you have the favor of those people that hurt us. That's part of our trauma. I completely get it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

But to that I say, why would Paul Mooney, someone of Richard Pryor's generation, a comedy legend that I look up to the basis of your joke, let's even talk joke craft. Wayne Brady makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X. So you're saying that Malcolm X, who for the sake of this joke is the, is the blackest of black because of him being this fighter for our rights and by any means necessary, you're now saying that Bryant Gumbel, who, whatever you feel about him or whatever the thing, because of how he talks or whoever he's married to, associates with, he's obviously white. So then that means that I am so not black that I make that guy look black by association. So now you're questioning my blackness. You're questioning Bryant Gumbel's blackness. You're throwing anything that we have done of merit. You're tossing that shit aside when really those are things that objectively like, holy crap, Brian Gumbel was one of the first sportscasters of color to be able to achieve the things that he achieved. And very intelligent man carved a path in this thing. But screw that, he's not black. Black enough. And then who says that you are the gatekeeper and the arbiter of that? So that's, that's the problem that I had with it. I, I, I put up with that my entire life to a degree, because of that whole being separated, selected from the beginning, right? So I put up with that. So I was cool with it. But when I saw it on Dave's show, I was hurt a little bit because, and I've even said, said this in other interviews on TV because I love Dave Chappelle so much because I rocked with Dave from the days of Robin Hood, Men in tights and his early stand up sets. I was a fan, fan, fan. So I was like, what did I do? And I'm out here killing it too. I'm a trailblazer. I'm doing. Why would you say so? That's why a joke like that hurt. And then that joke also hurts. Now I realize in trauma work, that joke hurts the little guy. The Little Wayne who always wanted to be accepted, belong, who always want to belong, who thought that by being really funny and making it as the only him on this show and breaking down sir, certain doors. I never changed who I was. Yeah, the gig changed, but I didn't change. I was taking all that on and I felt horrible. I felt bad. I felt like there was no seat at the table for me.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

I felt like I didn't belong. And now it's not just elementary school or high school. I don't belong. I don't belong in the friggin fraternity of comedians that I respect, that I've worked to be in, mentioned in my own right with, with these other guys. So that's why that hurts so much. And I get that and I work through, through that and, and that's always been a sore, sore, sore spot. Oh, excuse me, my phone is ringing and it should, you shouldn't be. Oh, it's Dave. So. But, but you know what? Stuff, stuff, stuff like that, you then use it and it goes on to feel the beast. It feels your comedy.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, talking about your incredible. Thank you for talking about that. That wasn't like a planned. Oh, I have Wayne. I'll get him to comment on. Of course, like we were talking about the, the plucked feeling.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

In your schooling. So thanks for talking about. I'm sure people will be very interested to hear that if they hadn't heard it already. So thank you. Of course, when it talks about that tension. Right. That not belonging tension, whether it be in school, in the south, racially, later, does that, like, I'll show them stuff come out in your comedy. Is it when, when the lights come on and it's time for you to go, are you sort of fueled by that wound? You know what I mean?

[Wayne Brady]

I used to be fueled by it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Tell me.

[Wayne Brady]

Especially after, you know, like in that era and, and I kind of went through this, you know, I was always, geez, when I wrapped my talk show and did the Chappelle sketch and was moving on to everything else, I went batshit crazy. I was already crazy, but I was doing a pretty good lid job of keeping a lid on it.

[Pete Holmes]

What kind of crazy?

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, just emotionally.

[Pete Holmes]

And this is the undiagnosed depression.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

And anxiety.

[Wayne Brady]

Didn't realize that I was living with it because when you're moving quickly, like, like I had for a number of years. Once, once. No notoriety hits any time that you have with yourself. No, I can't spend any time with Myself, I actually had some time. I was like, oh, hell no. I'm not dealing with this and dating and going out and. And. And that's when I. I got divorced and. And just didn't know what was happening.

[Pete Holmes]

I. I feel it like a substance thing too. I mean.

[Wayne Brady]

No, no, not even. It's so funny. I say I've said this in the men's group and. And just know that this is not to disrespect anyone in the a. To me. And I. I should stress that to me. There are times when I've wished that I had a substance abuse so you.

[Pete Holmes]

Could fix it, so you could dial in on it.

[Wayne Brady]

And this also is somebody talking who has not had that. So. So I have brothers in. In programs who. I don't want them to think that I'm belittling that.

[Pete Holmes]

Is it for that reason.

[Wayne Brady]

To me it seems like.

[Pete Holmes]

No, it seems like to diagnose this is the.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm sorry that if this is my problem, that if this is my thing, if I can't stop drinking Vita cocoa, if I get the right help, I don't have to touch Vita. That's tangible. I know this. I know what it tastes like. I don't want it. I shut. I shut the door on it. I'm good.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Wayne Brady]

The problem is in me.

[Pete Holmes]

It was.

[Wayne Brady]

Problem is me. It's chemically in me. It's the same brain that gives me my superpower is also my worst enemy.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. The shadow side of it.

[Wayne Brady]

And I wish I could excise or expunge, just grab what. Whatever that thing is. And so there were days when I would go. I would trade a problem like that for what I'm carrying around and what I'm feeling and would just get worse and worse and then not really getting help for it and spiraling. And nobody could see it. Nobody could see that there was a problem because, oh, Wayne is smiling and he shows up and, And. And that's what you do. Because that's in my DNA. So even on a worst day, old school show business, I'll show up. But I began to see that slowly things were unraveling. So I would show up, but I would show up angry. I'd get the job done, but I'd be mad. Don't talk to Wayne right now. But he's now smiling, but he's. Oh, I'd be doing a play. I couldn't remember my lines because my memory locked up. Because. Right. Because my memory from the traumatic memory loss, the short term memory, I couldn't Remember things and that would make. Make me angry. I became paranoid at times because I was not being treated, I was not getting help. I was trying to self medicate, either by relationships or did you think everybody.

[Pete Holmes]

Was trying to take advantage of you or.

[Wayne Brady]

Absolutely.

[Pete Holmes]

Even bigger. Like aliens. I'm not trying to get it.

[Wayne Brady]

No, no. You're saying no because not aliens. But I did believe. I started to believe I couldn't be in a relationship because if you're willing to be in a relationship with me, something's wrong with you. Or you're stealing. So you, you don't want me.

[Pete Holmes]

Wow. Or I laugh because that's so real.

[Wayne Brady]

That's so real.

[Pete Holmes]

That's raw data. If you don't you. So you don't love yourself. Right. And now you're with somebody and you're like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Wayne Brady]

So there's no way. Or the flip side, side of that is when you don't love yourself and you're seeking validation. Which, which side? Side note 1. One of my biggest heroes growing, growing up was Sammy Davis Jr. Just because as a showman, his Broadway work, his singing, his acting impersonations, though those were things that immediately young Wayne locked into it, said, oh, I think I can be a guy like that. And then becoming a Sammy Uber fan. Also reading about the dark side, about his gambling addiction, about his substance addiction, about all the ways that he wasn't accepted by his folks and all these things. So I was kind of drawing this parallel in my mind, silently never really saying it. So knowing enough and going, I wish that he would have loved himself. And I see other people that make it and go, well, I, I wish that they would have valued themselves enough and. And I began to see that in me, that if I didn't value myself and I'd place myself in situations in, in relationships where you can't love me because I don't love me and therefore I don't trust your. Your judgment and I don't trust you.

[Pete Holmes]

It's a gift you've given us. Because people talk about why do you have to love yourself? It sounds like an ego trip or something. And I'm like, no, it's the first step to any relationship.

[Wayne Brady]

And it sounds. So now it's been said so much.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

It sounds trite, I know, but dude, it is so true.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes.

[Wayne Brady]

You have to love yourself just on a basic level.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. Even if it. Because Val said, my wife said this to me. She was like, when you want to be better, that's Lovable. That's something worth loving. You know what I mean? So you're broken and you're noticing. Why can't I? I always do the thing I don't want to do. Why is that? You don't want to be that way. That's a starting point. You go like, oh, my God, look. Pete wants to improve. That is beautiful. That's the first step towards forgiving yourself.

[Wayne Brady]

Which is why doing that work legitimately, going to therapy legitimately is important because it's not just you sitting and telling a stranger stuff. And I want to try to fool this person. It's you doing some action. You're actually taking an action. Whereas you could just sit in whatever this thing is and let it consume you. And then everything that you love starts to go away. I started finding the thing, my joy, which was being on stage. Because I would do that. I'll show them. If you'd think that I'm not. Da da da da. Watch this. You aren't funnier than me in my realm. You aren't smarter than me in my realm. You can't make this song up. And now I'll say you can't out sing. You can't do this thing. I started to notice the things that I truly loved and was good at started to get tainted and they would erode. Maybe I wasn't as good on stage that night. Maybe I wasn't as fast and made people laugh as much. Maybe I was unhappy showing up for the show so much that I am gonna read a comment from someone online. Yeah, I saw him on Thursday. I don't know.

[Pete Holmes]

Because if you believe them when they hate you, if you believe them when.

[Wayne Brady]

They love you, you have to believe the other side. It's like reviews, right?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

So. And I had to face up to that truth. I said, okay, I'm not showing up. I'm not showing up for myself in real life. That's why I can't show up on stage. And stage was my. I was fond of saying that. That maybe the other 22 hours of the day, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. But those two hours, I'll kill it. That's where I'm happy. That's my safe place.

[Pete Holmes]

That doesn't work. Life won't work that way.

[Wayne Brady]

Life won't work that way. It eventually.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

Takes it away.

[Pete Holmes]

But we've all seen the behind the Music of Comedians enough. That story over and over.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

And I love that you're saying it. It's like Well, I, I'm always worried I'm saying Mulaney too much, but I was close with Malay, closer with Mulaney. Isn't he the best? He's the king. When I was getting divorced and I remember being like, this is when I was 28, so I was a baby, but I was like, shouldn't I be funnier? Like I'm in all this pain. Shouldn't I be funnier? And he just goes, pain gets in the way of that, of what we do. So that idea that we're supposed to be swashbuckling, hungover, coughing up, like literally coughing up cigarette butts, going on stage, and you're in the middle of a horrible divorce and you're killing it, that.

[Wayne Brady]

Only works in movies.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

That only works when the character's like, you know what? I'm just gonna tell you the truth.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, we're not all Lenny Bruce.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

That is not the case.

[Pete Holmes]

Most of us will do better. You'll. So getting in touch with your joy again? So how did you treat that depression? What, what was the, how did you diagnose it?

[Wayne Brady]

Like, what I found, I finally found a great therapist, which like any relationship, I found one that got me and that I really looked forward to sharing with gender. Was it a male?

[Pete Holmes]

Male.

[Wayne Brady]

Male.

[Pete Holmes]

Just interesting.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Guy. Older, a little younger than me.

[Pete Holmes]

I'm just trying to get a picture.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, I'm a little younger than me. Brilliant, huh? Like when I say brilliant, that not to blow up his spot or to like one of the, one of the heads of psychiatry at one of the schools that would be known for psychiatry. Yeah, like, oh, wow, one of these guys.

[Pete Holmes]

So you got the guy who, how'd you find him?

[Wayne Brady]

I found him through someone in my men's group who said, hey, you need.

[Pete Holmes]

Compelled you to join a men's group. Sorry, we're gonna get to the depression and the treatment. But this is.

[Wayne Brady]

No but that, that I needed community. Yeah, I didn't, you know, earlier when I was saying that, like the Wayne that people see on TV is drastically different. And it's not. Sad clown. Sad clown. Because I'm not crying at home. I mean, I've cried at home, but I'm not crying at home.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Early on, I don't know why or where, but I developed, I'm a very solitary person and I developed that as a, as a self defense mechanism. My grandmother kept me inside a lot because she was, she was very fearful. I, I, I had a very fearful Upbringing.

[Pete Holmes]

We had that in common. If I'm home, I'm safe.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

One of the first lines in my book. I was an indoor cat because I noticed my mom's having, like, a panic attack because my brother's out. I'm like, I'll just stay home.

[Wayne Brady]

I was an indoor cat.

[Pete Holmes]

Indoor cat.

[Wayne Brady]

And I love the fact that you phrase it like that. Well, then your analogy makes complete sense. And now that I look at it, that's what I tried to do to my daughter, which caused us a lot of thank God for therapy, because she goes to the same therapist.

[Pete Holmes]

Nice.

[Wayne Brady]

But the way that I was raised, my grandmother kept me inside because the neighborhood wasn't the greatest. It was a good neighborhood. But yeah, folks, you know, there was an occasional pop, pop. You heard shooting and. Or there were drug dealers or whatnot. So in her mind, I'm keeping you in the house because I'm keeping you safe. My word to your father was I would keep you safe. Yeah. And I'm going to raise you like I raised him. So I was very sheltered. So I was made fun of anyway for my accent because I talked like. Like them. I had a very strong Saint Tomian accent. And. And they thought that our family had money. We didn't have any money, but.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, you're from the islands, right?

[Wayne Brady]

Just sounds various things.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

So my thing was, you know what? I don't need you all. Fuck you. I'm good by myself, which, once again, that's a little bit of a superpower. Later on, I learned to play by. By myself, my imagination. I read every single book and get my hand on. I started to use a tape recorder to do plays.

[Pete Holmes]

Me too.

[Wayne Brady]

I would do all the voices. And you learn that. And I loved it. And I'd play with my action figures and story. So I developed a sense of story.

[Pete Holmes]

I think about that, too. That's when I'm writing a script, I'm like, this is GI Joe's. That's all it is.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what it is.

[Pete Holmes]

That. It was so stupid. I played with GI Joe's until I was like 18 and only stopped because people made fun of me. I was like, now I write scripts.

[Wayne Brady]

I would still play.

[Pete Holmes]

Just me, too.

[Wayne Brady]

I would still play.

[Pete Holmes]

If you play Grand Theft Auto, that's fucking any sandbox game. That's GI Joe's.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what it is. And it's that bit of you that loves that creativity because the creativity is safe.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

And so I did that in a vacuum. So I grew up that way. So later I learned to fake being very, very outgoing and. And I've talked with this before, too. I had a very strong stutter, a very, very strong stutter that I was in speech therapy early on for that. I believe it was brought on by childhood anxiety and, And. But almost debilitating. And even now, every. I mean, every blue, blue moon, if I am really worked up, if I'm very angry, if I'm very scared, if I'm unsure, the words can't come faster than my brain can process, and they get stuck. So it started then. So that's why I didn't talk to anybody, because if I didn't talk to you, then I didn't. Then I had no fear. So later on in high school, once I started acting, I developed up the character of Wayne, which was cool enough to be on stage, and I could walk into any room and I could look somebody in the eye and I could shake your hand and be. And I could carry on a conversation, and I could make your mom like me, and I could be charming. I can get with that. We could do the whole thing as soon as I went home. Click, ear. Oh, God, I'm so glad that's over. I don't want to do. Ever do anything. And I kind of put that, that box away. But then as I started working years later and things started happening and people know you and you have to show up for events, you have to show up and show up, my social. That fuse began to. To. To misfire. And I became super solitary again, which is why I wouldn't go to any events. And my publicist and agents stopped sending me to things and people stopped inviting me because Wayne isn't going to show up. Wayne. Wayne isn't going to show up, show up to this thing. And I got a reputation for that. And that started to affect. Even when offers really think Wayne's gonna show up, I was like, but I pride myself on showing up. You show up when you want to. And I. And I had to realize that that was a truth as well. And I realized that I'd cut myself off from everybody. I was very happy being in my house by myself. And because Mandy and I were divorced, my daughter Miley would be at her house some. Some of the days if I didn't have her. I'm by myself. I don't need anybody. I'll sit in that room, I'll shut down. And that's how I dealt with things. So being a part of a men's group gave me a community of at least a couple guys who I could talk to, especially some of them being. Being in the business, I could actually listen to their stories and I could talk and we all had very similar stories. And that's helped me to this day now, too.

[Pete Holmes]

Antonio Banderas is in your men's group. That's incredible.

[Wayne Brady]

I know, I know. Shout out to a man, the aman. I'm not very happy with his voting preferences, but come out in a weird way. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Yikes.

[Wayne Brady]

Antonio. Who knew? Oh, by the way, he's. He's not really in my man's group, but it would be awesome.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that goes. That goes viral, right?

[Wayne Brady]

Somebody. What? And then I get flamed on Twitter by. By. By Antonio. But weirdly, he says, you didn't show up Wednesday. Huh?

[Pete Holmes]

The show is brought to us by our friends at Element. Element, like it says on my hat. I'm going to talk about a different aspect of Element. Not only has it replaced my morning cup of coffee, flooding my body with the electrolytes, we're talking about sodium, potassium, magnesium. That it means to get. That it means to get every cell ready to start my day. The neuro connectivity is fired up. It tastes great. Watermelon salt. I love it. Awesome. After a workout, of course, hydration isn't just water. It's getting these nutrients in this precise measurement into your body. But here's a different way. I enjoy Element at night. Sometimes I'm just bored and I want to eat, but instead I make a cup of hot element. They make these chocolate flavors. There's chocolate salt, there's chocolate chai, there's chocolate raspberry. Put it in a mug, add some hot water, stir it up. Couldn't be easier. It's delicious. It satisfies my sweet tooth. There's no junk, there's no sugar, there's no caffeine. And it's flooding my body with stuff that it actually needs. Magnesium before bed is fantastic. Something about the sodium in the element also keeps me from getting up to pee in the night, which is amazing. So get Element into your life. I'm seeing it everywhere. People are definitely. The cat is out of the bag. People are finding out how amazing healthy hydration is with these electrolytes. So go to drinklmnt.com weird. Get a free sample pack and you can try all of the different flavors. Who knew I would love mango chili? But I do. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't tried the sample pack. So go to drinklmnt.com weird. Get this hydration in your life, get this energy, get this brain fired up stuff in your body. I swear by it and you will love it. They also make incredible 16 ounce cans, which we love. Whenever we have people over, people go straight for the element. So do it. Drinklmnt.com weird. We're also brought to us, as always, by our friends at Modern Mammals. You know, I hate shampoo. Shampoo fries your hair. It dries it out, makes it look poofy, makes it look terrible. For years, practically, yeah, Pretty much my entire life. If I washed my hair, I just knew I was gonna look like crap for two, three days until the natural oils in my hair came back and brought it back under control. Well, enter Modern Mammals to fix all of that. It leaves the natural oil, just enough of the natural oil in your hair to give you that sweet, sweet flow that means you wash it when you want it to look good, which is how it should be if I want a perfect hair day, if I'm going to a premiere or if I'm acting in something or doing stand up, I wash it, I clean it. With Modern Mammals, the non shampoo shampoo that gets your hair looking Perfect in about 15 seconds, over 40,000 guys have switched making this their new shampoo. You got to see the reviews for this product. It blows people's mind. And once you try it, you will be hooked for life. Which is why I'm always giving it out to the guests on the show. I love this company. I love this product. You are six seconds away, guys. To perfect hair, go to modern mammals.com weird. And you can try the bar, which is a plastic free alternative. It's also pH balanced, wonderful for travel and the bottle, which is a more traditional shampoo experience. Try both for 44 bucks. Modern mammals.com weird. All right, back to the show. So you wanted community and that started to help because you are a little reclusive. I relate, by the way, just, just so you know, you're not alone in that. Like, you go like, it's safe to be alone. It's familiar to be alone. And then, you know, my wife and my daughter bring me out of that. And, and then, and then you start feeling like this other thing. You're like, because fight flight is going away. That's Fight flight. Freeze. That's kind of like a freeze for me. It's like, just freeze. At home. I might be moving, but I'm frozen.

[Wayne Brady]

Right?

[Pete Holmes]

You're in the body like the armadillo or the turtle shell.

[Wayne Brady]

Right.

[Pete Holmes]

But from the outside, you're just frozen. You might be in there playing Xbox.

[Wayne Brady]

Shocked into inaction.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Which, which I also know is the ADHD trait of the executive functions and the executive shutdown. But there will be times when I. I absolutely feel that thing of I will just sit and I'm happy to be sitting in the quiet.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And I know that I've got to get up and do something, but I'd rather stay here for right now because if I move to do what I've got to do, I'm exposing myself.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. You have to do the next thing too. You know what I mean? Jim Gaffigan has a great joke where he goes, you ever have a Saturday where you have 30 things to do and you get so overwhelmed you do none of them?

[Wayne Brady]

I was like, yes.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. You ever do neurofeedback? Just give you another thing?

[Wayne Brady]

No, have I done that? Which, now, which one is the neurofeedback with the machine? Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

You put a little note on your head and the movie fades out. That really helps me. I've started doing it again because I know exactly what you're talking about. And I've been noticing, like, feeling less overwhelmed when I'm just like, I have to go to the post office. And I just. Before I know it, I notice I'm at the post office and I'm like.

[Wayne Brady]

This is a miracle. If you can make yourself go. Yeah, just do it. Then everything's cool. What I tell people now is what, what works for me whenever I've asked, asked about it, speeches that I give is, it's easy. I make my bed.

[Pete Holmes]

Yes. Starts the momentum.

[Wayne Brady]

Even this morning.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Because I didn't sleep last night. I was overwhelmed by the day that I knew I was going to have today. That even just this morning I had a pitch. I had to take care of my dogs and my house was being worked. Worked on and people were invading my space. And then I had to get out early. I knew traffic and I had to get here. And then I'm doing after midnight. And then I'm singing in a Broadway, Broadway tribute tonight. What? So I looked at the day. I didn't sleep at all because I was trying to deliver this short story that I needed to finish. I waited until the last second and then I was freaked out about the story. And then I was jet lagged and then I couldn't sleep. My dog wanted to go outside. So basically I got like three and a half hours sleep last night. So at 6am this morning, laying in the bed, I went, you know what I wonder if I. I'm going to make something up and maybe I can say that I'm sick and then maybe he'll have me back as a guest later. No, but then he already booked out the day and I know that that sucks. You can't do that. Well, maybe I can do the other thing. I'll drop out of the Broadway song tribute tonight and I'll just tell them that shooting on After Midnight ran long. No, you can't do that, Wayne. You already. You're really trying to make sure that people know that you can show up.

[Pete Holmes]

Fuck.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm like, make your bed, huh? Go. I actually jumped out of bed because it was the only way to go. And I made my bed. I went, okay, the bed's made. I can't get back in it now. So all those excuses, those things that ran through my head, no, the day is set. I made my bed. Now it's on to each thing.

[Pete Holmes]

That's incredible. I've never thought of a made bed as a bed you can't get back in, but sometimes that's all it takes. That's my theory on why we wear suits to office jobs. It's so it's hard to get naked. You can't wear sweatpants and no undies. People be all day.

[Wayne Brady]

Which is bad. Bad for productivity, which is bad. Unless you work at pornhub, but not in corporate offices.

[Pete Holmes]

They all. They have Juicy sweatpants uniform. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like brushing your teeth if you don't want to eat, like snack. Late night snack, brush your teeth. It's that same sort of mentality because.

[Wayne Brady]

You don't want to taste it. So any of those little tricks and tools, that's a tool that I got from therapy. It sounds so basic and simple.

[Pete Holmes]

You just get going.

[Wayne Brady]

That's one of those things. Why don't you make your bed, Wayne? Well, I always make my bed. It's part of how I was raised. No, but I had to admit, when I was going through it on days I was going through it, screw that bed in the comforter. And I would treat everything like, I don't care. I'll leave a mess on the counter. And I'm a fastidious person, so that's how I know that I was going through something. If I make my bed, it all falls into place.

[Pete Holmes]

I completely agree. The other thing that it struck to. Struck me to share is that, like, I've been feeling overwhelmed, like on the weekend. My daughter's going to be six this month.

[Wayne Brady]

Congratulations.

[Pete Holmes]

She's the best. But sometimes, you know, when you're my wife and I say looking down the barrel of, you know, 12 hours with a 6 year old, got a lot of activities. It's exhausting. And you get through Saturday, you don't get through Saturday, but it's Saturday night, you're going to bed and you're like, we have to do that again tomorrow. Like there's Sunday. Weekends are for people that don't have kids. It's not a new observation. There's no weekend that's the hardest. It's the most packed day. It's the most effort. It's an effortful day. But then I was like, basic stuff. It's like making the bed just like, just do this, just do this. Just what you're doing right now, don't compound it and think about the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Who could do the day you're doing? Nobody, including you. But isn't there even just a comfort in just going like, just this, just this?

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, just for today. And little flips to language. That's what I've really been studying lately. And that's the one thing that I think that Instagram and TikTok have really proven themselves good for. Just like it's been the rise of, of, of the at home comedian and musician. It's also been the rise of the therapist. Using that and not everybody because there are some quacks. But there's a lot of good stuff, common sense that I go, oh yeah. And one of them is adjusting. It's not that I had to get out of my bed and now I gotta go do the Pete Holmes thing and I gotta go. Did. No, I get to, I get to. I'll, I'll tell the folks watching. You know what? I had my PR team reach out to Peach home to Pete. Pete. I wanted to be here. I was j. I was like, oh my God. All these people I like get to go and have fun with Pete Holmes. So I get to have fun. I get to be on after midnight because they think that I could make their show good by being funny. I get to go and sing tonight because they asked me as a member of the Broadway community here in LA to raise awareness to me. I get to do those things. Who gets to do a day like that? That's a brag. I get to. Oh shit, that's my day.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. When I'm doing an hour of stand up, I always have them to turn the clock around. I'M like, this isn't a job. Turn the clock around. I'm not watching a count from an hour. That's insane. What. You know, it seems like we're making, you know, tiles in a factory or something.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm not doing great. That you do turn that around.

[Pete Holmes]

I get off when I. When I'm done. And I've been doing this since I've been headlining, so it's been 20 years. I go, I don't have to do an hour. I get to do as long as I want.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Isn't that good?

[Wayne Brady]

You can get to. And that changes everything.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, yeah. No, that's. Hugely. Language is so powerful. We don't have a lot of time because you got to get to Taylor. So we got 20 minutes here. I did want to talk about. You're the only guest we've had that's pansexual. That's very interesting to me.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

Talk about that. But we also want to talk about the meaning of life, so let's do both.

[Wayne Brady]

Let's.

[Pete Holmes]

Let's see if we can do. Let's do. I'm just. You really are talking to someone who doesn't really know pansexual. Pan. Like pantheism kind of sexual in any direction. Is that correct?

[Wayne Brady]

Yes. And you know what? Here's. Here's the truth. I'm still figuring it out too.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. Oh, no. Nobody's making you be the spokesperson for pansexuality.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, no. But some people, you know, want you to do. Demand that. Some people demand it. And. And what I love is. Is God bless America. The level of. Of wanton and sometimes intentional ignorance is amazing, especially online. That's what Twitter is for, I guess, because, you know, somebody. Especially under our posts for our show and you know, the weekly. Weekly posts and stuff, there's all this love, and then every blue moon, there'll be somebody, he's like, just say, you gay man. That's gay around him. You know what? Even if I were, okay.

[Pete Holmes]

Right.

[Wayne Brady]

It's not like you're shaming me into doing some. Something. It's.

[Pete Holmes]

People get uncomfortable, though, when it's like a new thing or a new thing.

[Wayne Brady]

Or something that spacious thing or something that they don't get. Spacious is the right word because if you don't understand something, it doesn't cost anything to still create space for it and give. Well, I don't understand it. Personally. I don't get it. But good. Good for you, because that's your thing, right?

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

So I don't get It, Yeah, but good for you, right? Or let me listen and see if I actually can.

[Pete Holmes]

I thought you'd say it doesn't cost anything to just step back and take a beat and observe. You know those people that call into news polls to say, I don't know, it's like, do you think Biden should step down? 48% say, yes, I don't know. 12% said, I don't know, I don't know. This guy was motivated to call in and say, I don't know.

[Wayne Brady]

You called in three times, sir.

[Pete Holmes]

That's what it is like with this.

[Wayne Brady]

But, but that's what social media. Well, three times. That's what I think. Social media, you have to have an opinion. You have to, you are your opinion. You have to. If I don't say something and that discourse is happening, then I don't exist.

[Pete Holmes]

Also, if they're your opinion, you are your sexuality or you are your race or you are your gender or whatever it might be, be like, you understand, when, when you start making people yeses and nos on a, like an sat. What Scantron. I, I, I know what pansexual is that. That's just someone who won't say they're gay, you know, and also they're asking you to be a Scantron sheet as well. And, and break it down. When what you're saying is life, the human experience, even this moment is so much stranger and wilder and mysterious and unknowable. And it's like sometimes when I'm really in touch with reality, I see that we're skiing, you know, or whitewater rafting. Everything's changing. We build monuments and we wear the same shirt and stuff to give the illusion of consistency because we want to hold on. That's why we play Wake Me up before you go, go at the, at the supermarket. You hear it and you go, I've heard the song before. You have memories. I belong on this planet. I get it. It's a good thing to do. But the truth of the matter is, is you and I are on the tip of an arrow shooting through outer space. And it's wild. It's so much more dreamlike and ethereal.

[Wayne Brady]

You said that in, in one of your shows. What's the joke that you, the observation. It's kind of like that where you, where you broke down. How we're moving.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, we're floating on a space rock. The life makes no sense.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, life makes no sense.

[Pete Holmes]

Right?

[Wayne Brady]

Because we take time to think, think about us hurtling through, through infinitely expanding space. And doing this thing.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And all this stuff.

[Pete Holmes]

And then that's.

[Wayne Brady]

Those are the things that you were worrying about.

[Pete Holmes]

Exactly. And to create some order or power or identity, we would go like, wayne, just say you're gay. Because I can't handle it. Like, I'm having a panic attack. We're in. I'm not saying they're consciously thinking that, but we want things to be. Need you move.

[Wayne Brady]

You've got to do that thing. You've got to do that thing. So now I feel good.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. You go to the grocery store, you want the coffee to be where it was last time. And any disruption, even though we all know it's an arbitrary choice made by the stock boy. Steve.

[Wayne Brady]

Shout out, Steve.

[Pete Holmes]

Shout out, Steve. Thanks for putting that taster's choice right.

[Wayne Brady]

Where I need it, Cosmic stock boy.

[Pete Holmes]

So I'm just saying, when you are brave, and it is brave as a known person to come out and be like, this is the thing. People don't go. People magazine can't sell as easily if you were gay. Wayne Brady. I'm gay. Just like Clay Aiken. You get your I'm gay cover. There's no I'm pansexual cover.

[Wayne Brady]

You know, that's why it was really great when they even ran the story.

[Pete Holmes]

Who ran the story?

[Wayne Brady]

People making it up. They were the first people to really break it because we talked. Talked to them and they did a whole spread and everything. But. But you're right. It's not a cover story because it's not even the reality show. It's not as sensational as folks would want it to be. They're like, well, if you're gonna come out and do these things, I want to hear the lurid details, which is why I think that a lot of people, even when they ask a question. So now that you've come out and you're. Your truth, which is the buzzword.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Now you're living your truth. How things changed. There are a lot of people that would love for me to say it has changed. I. I am in denim tight ass shorts on a Wednesday night. I'm going through West Hollywood with a top hat and a cane, tap dancing to. To RuPaul's greatest hits. Doing splits with living fish in your shoes. With living fish that I eat afterwards. Hibachi. So. But no, my life has not changed like that. That is not my truth.

[Pete Holmes]

Right, Right.

[Wayne Brady]

So don't try to force.

[Pete Holmes]

That would be the drawer we would know to put it in.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what I'M saying because that sounds.

[Pete Holmes]

Good and it's, it's digestible. You know what I mean? I'm not saying what you are and what you say.

[Wayne Brady]

You're right.

[Pete Holmes]

Indigestible.

[Wayne Brady]

No, you're exactly.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, but it requires a certain level of sensitivity.

[Wayne Brady]

It's a little indigestible. And, and that's why I say, even for me as someone, I didn't just lightly get up on a winter and go time to upset the apple cart. Let's see, I even part of my childhood story and everything up to this point and that piece of trying to figure out what was up with myself and the things that I found attractive and the person I wanted to be with and love and fan and fantasy and how does that play into that was all part of my deal, which I never thought about it until I started going to therapy. So there's a reason why even younger, I never came out as gay. Because I'm not gay. I'm not. I have the women that I've been with in my life and all the women I've dated and the people I was married to. It's because I was attracted to them. Now that's not to say that maybe I was not attracted to a man as well, which is what gave me pause. So I didn't know what the term for that was. And then even once I did learn the term later of bisexual, there was something in me that said, I guess that could be it. But then once we started to become educated, I dare say maybe in the past six years about people that are non binary and, and more. And the trans, more of the trans community started making a stand and making themselves vocal and sharing their story. And I've got a transition trans trans niece. And seeing that and then I went, oh, I think I understand what this mean. What does this thing. And then my daughter Miley was the one that said, you know what a pansexual is, right? I'm like, no, what is pan? I guess you know, me being a snare. Well, the entomology of the word pan, would it mean that I was at. Yes, dad. Okay, whatever. Yes. It means that you would be open to love for the, for, for, for everyone. It's hearts, not parts of the it hard top parts.

[Pete Holmes]

I've never heard that.

[Wayne Brady]

I love women.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

I could be attracted to this beautiful trans woman. I have found that guy attractive if this person says they're non binary, but there are a couple non binary presenting actors or actresses that, that, that I've met that I'VE gone, wow. You're. You're beautiful. In. In that way. That's a pansexual. I think. I believe that's what that is. Scary as hell and still trying to work through it. Is that what it is? But now that I voiced it, people are expecting, well, does that mean that you're with somebody now and you're gonna end up with a man? You're gonna boom. I said, I don't know. That's not for you all to know. That's for me to find out later. I. That's part of the journey for me. So I'm still trying to find out. I'm still trying to find out exactly what it means.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah. It's beautiful. Man.

[Wayne Brady]

And I have you to thank. How's that for. For some of my growth. Tell me. Because I'd never seen a comic actor writer who discussed faith. Huh. And faith definitely played a piece of this journey form for me as well. And I'm sure that we know some of the same people where for a while. And I grew up in a very religious household. On top of that. I'll say we. We grew up. Up Episcopalian cat, Catholic light. I guess. Very much in the church all of the time. And. And being told, you know, you're gonna go to hell if you don't live a good life. And that's partially why I never wanted to delve into the sexuality thing. When you're around a bunch of other people that think that they are the smartest people in the room, inevitably faith comes up. And it's like, there's no God. There's no data. We all. We have. It's our intellect and. And life and what end and what we do. And we enjoy it here. And we're gon. Because we're all. But. And those are the smartest people in the room. And I fell in with some of them for a while because I kind of wanted to let my faith go because things didn't make sense. But it wasn't until therapy and seeing people like yourself talk about faith in a very specific way and not beating people over the head head with it going. I need to have a relationship with my faith. So whether I call it God or a higher power or whatever I speak to, I. I know I need that. And it was great to see someone else that tells jokes and makes funny speak about it.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

In a. In a positive and bright way. But with conviction went, oh, and this dude's brilliant. So you don't have to. So you don't have to smart does not equate being a godless or faithless person. You got to believe in something.

[Pete Holmes]

Right? Right. Yeah. And you do believe in something. That's what my joke about God or nothing. It's like you do believe in something. Let's look at the differing beliefs or whatever it might be.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

So you're making a choice in the non choice or whatever you want to say.

[Wayne Brady]

And they don't see that. But thank you.

[Pete Holmes]

Right. I really appreciate that. You know what? For me, what I wanted to, what I didn't realize I wanted to be, but what I'm glad that has started to happen is unembarrassed. So you say conviction and there is conviction. And I'll agree that there's some intelligence. I put a lot of work into those jokes.

[Wayne Brady]

Jokes.

[Pete Holmes]

But there's also like something I think powerful about somebody talking about again, the meaning of life, consciousness, awareness, being whatever you want to say, God. Without being embarrassed. That means this person, me, has found a way to hold in my heart that isn't shameful. We used to go to church and they would sing I am not ashamed of the gospel. I was like, why would you be? Oh, right. Because there's all these other things that we believe other than just the good news. We believe in like all these people are going to hell. We believe in being whatever the sexuality is, whatever, blah, blah, blah. I was like, that's why we have to bolster ourselves up and be like, I am not ashamed. It's like, why would you be? If you look at what Jesus is.

[Wayne Brady]

Saying, you have to feel it.

[Pete Holmes]

There's no reason to be ashamed of being aligned with that belief.

[Wayne Brady]

But it's easy to fall into. Well, maybe not for everyone, but I'm just saying personally, it's easy to fall into that and feel. Well, I really don't want to talk about that stuff.

[Pete Holmes]

Of course not.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm ashamed of it right now.

[Pete Holmes]

But I would. That's what I, that was the big revelation was I was like, I was ashamed. Like as long as you bring atonement theory into it and sin into it and hell into it and, and believe this turn or burn sort of stuff, then you, then that is why you have to like be like. And I'm proud of it. Once you found find out that God is a lover, not a tormentor, then you're not ashamed at all. And when you realize that it's looking out your eyes right now and it's all just kind of like a beautiful strange dream it's having the thing that I aspire for.

[Wayne Brady]

And I feel that in that, that in the talk about faith. And it comes back to everything that we've talked, talked about that journey is I. At some point, and I'm working on it, I'd love to have as much faith in something as my grandmother did.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, wow.

[Wayne Brady]

When she passed and you know, the older yet we all have these thoughts of mortality now and everything. When she passed a couple years ago, that started another piece of the mortality clock. And I realized that I was jealous of my grandmother for a second because for her to pass and I watched her transition and leave this world, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that that old lady was not afraid. Because she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, you cannot tell her that she was going to whatever her reward was. And that's when a little bit of that thing that I had started to cultivate broke down. Because I thought, wow, to have that faith, not just in God, but to have that faith in yourself because we are of him. And to have that faith in yourself and then to have that faith in. In your fellow man and then to have faith in things. I went, oh, maybe I can. That's how you don't walk around mad and angry and negative asshole sometimes when you're not on stage. Have faith that things are going to be okay and put that on there. Then I can be a better man. I can be a better husband to someone one day. I can be a better father. I can be better on stage because I can really show up. Right. And it's not an act.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. And you recognize your shared reality. I try to. I try to remember that when I'm on stage, it's like we're all just kind of performing for ourselves. It's all this little dance we're doing to delight ourselves. But like, not me and audience, but like this thing we're all creating together, or me and guest, it's like this little space we're creating together.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes.

[Pete Holmes]

That's when you start to recognize who you really are. I believe it's Chinese Zen, have this expression that dying is like a vase and it breaks and the air inside the vase just disperses into the air in the room. And it sounds like your grandmother knew who she was. And when you know who you are. And in religious language, when you say when you know yourself to be a child of God, you know you're going to your father. It's right there in front of you, right. Jesus says, your, your son's where he's the Son of God. And we're to be like him Or. Or the prodigal son. Remember, I always go to the prodigal son. You can go back to your father's house. But you were. You were his son, Meaning you're of him, is what you said. So don't be afraid of yourself.

[Wayne Brady]

Don't be afraid. And. And that goes back to the love yourself thing.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, if you're saying that you've got faith and you love him, then you got to love you. And if you love you, then you love him, Then you love your fellow man. All of the things that. It's cool to be skeptical. That brain. It's cool to be skeptical. It's cool to make fun of things. It's cool to get. Get online and flame people immediately. And. And when folks say, well, I'm running to the comment section. Section, because you've been all that, there's no need. I. I look at all that behavior as when you don't believe in something. That's when it's easy to pick somebody else's thing apart. And I didn't want to be part of that anymore. I want to use whatever time I have left to build. And it just goes back to if I say that I want to be on stage and be funny and this is the rest of my life and. And all the creative things that I do, I can't show up and be funny, or I can't write music like I do, or I can't. Now I've started to write sci fi and. And do this. I can't play. I can't do any things I want to do. If I'm a bitter asshole. I can't do any of those things.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And I'm gonna be a bitter asshole if I don't love myself and have faith.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, that's great, man. I'm glad.

[Wayne Brady]

It's.

[Pete Holmes]

Who cares what I think? But you seem like you're shining bright.

[Wayne Brady]

I do.

[Pete Holmes]

You're shining bright.

[Wayne Brady]

And I see that in you too.

[Pete Holmes]

Well, I'm thrilled. It makes me. You know, it'll bum me out for a long time if I have a guest hunt. I'm like, yikes. Like, I just don't know if they figured it out. And I love seeing you figuring it out. It's really nice to see.

[Wayne Brady]

That's all we can do.

[Pete Holmes]

That's right. Well, we have literally two minutes. Can you tell me the time you laughed harder in your life than any other time.

[Wayne Brady]

Oh, wow. Oh, my God.

[Pete Holmes]

You want to think While I read a comment. Yes, guys, if you want to help the show, one of the really nice things you can do is rate the show. I'm looking for the text. Where is it? Katie? There it is. And leave a comment on itunes. And here's one maybe we'll read on the show. This is from berare93. The wisdom he says required listening. Five stars. You don't have to listen to this. You can think of your story. The wisdom within these interviews over the years is essential listening for anyone in interested in comedy at any level. There was a comedy university class. This would be required listening on every syllabus. No other comedy interview podcast comes close. Scroll around, find a comedian you like and listen to the interview. It's the best. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Help support the show. There's so many podcasts and I'm very proud of this show. I want people to hear it. So share it, text it to a friend or maybe leave us a nice comment like that.

[Wayne Brady]

That's awesome. Well, I found this comment for your show as well because you got to take it. Take the good with the bad, man. Pete, you're not black enough. That's. I don't. I don't.

[Pete Holmes]

Paul Mooney jumped on there.

[Wayne Brady]

Paul. God bless him.

[Pete Holmes]

God bless him. God bless him.

[Wayne Brady]

Ouija board. Mooney.

[Pete Holmes]

Black enough.

[Wayne Brady]

The time that I've left, I can't even say. They say, man, I've been lucky enough like you to just get a lot of. I know I've left belly laughs, but I think the times that I've laughed the hardest have been when I'm in the flow state on stage with my buddy Jonathan and I'm in that childlike place where I've laughed so hard that it hurts my stomach.

[Pete Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And once. Well, a couple times. No shame in my game. We've. I've laughed so hard on stage with Jonathan that I just ripped one.

[Pete Holmes]

I thought you're going to say pee your pants. Ripping one is a high compliment.

[Wayne Brady]

Peeing your pants. How g. Low brow.

[Pete Holmes]

That's so funny.

[Wayne Brady]

No, just laughing and. Yeah. And little solo. A little solo. And now the horn section. Take it, Louie. So that's when I've laughed. Laughed the hardest.

[Pete Holmes]

That's wonderful. I. The times I've made a friend, usually a female friend who's had a baby, no shade there. Pee their pants in the audience. I'm like. A friend told me that she peter pants at my show and I didn't know what to say. And this is a true story. I went, I like it. A mega upee.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what I said.

[Pete Holmes]

Why? Like a weird Mario Italian.

[Wayne Brady]

I like how to make a up.

[Pete Holmes]

I didn't know what to say.

[Wayne Brady]

You know what?

[Pete Holmes]

Don't tell me you peed your pants. There's no right answer to that.

[Wayne Brady]

The character obviously loved. That's his job. Yeah.

[Pete Holmes]

I like how to make you pee.

[Wayne Brady]

I'm the pee specialist. I travel from town to town. I make an ultimate pee.

[Pete Holmes]

You have a sleepover, Put a friend's.

[Wayne Brady]

Hand in the warm water. I like how to make a up. That'd be $5.

[Pete Holmes]

That's Wayne. What an honor. Would you say keep it crispy? Check out the family remix.

[Wayne Brady]

The family remix on Hulu. And go.

[Pete Holmes]

See you live. Clearly, if you're ripping smart.

[Wayne Brady]

You see me live. Ripping away. You can catch every single day. Let's make a deal on cbs.

[Pete Holmes]

Incredible.

[Wayne Brady]

And Whose Line Is In Any way just started its latest season on the cw.

[Pete Holmes]

And in the upcoming Batmans.

[Wayne Brady]

And in the upcoming Batmans that I will be. We would be producing. It's amazing that I'm.

[Pete Holmes]

No one's holding you to that.

[Wayne Brady]

Producing. Once I'm in embarrassment. I just got a text from my accountant. He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So I'm producing it.

[Pete Holmes]

So look, man, this is how deals get done.

[Wayne Brady]

That's.

[Pete Holmes]

Would you say keep it crispy?

[Wayne Brady]

Keep it crispy, baby.

[Pete Holmes]

Oh, got a baby.