We Made It Weird #116

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Made It Weird #116

Podcast: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes
Hosts: Pete Holmes & Valerie Chaney
Date: December 9, 2022

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Main Theme

This episode captures Pete Holmes and Valerie Chaney in a free-flowing, intimate conversation during a “coffee date” at 9:30 in the morning. Their dialogue moves through playful banter, food and holiday associations, relationships, spiritual practices (especially A Course in Miracles and Buddhism), childhood influences, emotional honesty, boundaries, and healing. The tone is warm, funny, self-deprecating, and at times deeply vulnerable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Coffee Date Vibes & Holiday Banter

00:20–11:00

• Pete and Val talk about the change of recording in the morning instead of their “off-mic” coffee dates.
• They riff on holiday songs and the word “Aboriginal” ("It's funny because it has the word original in it, and abs. A lot of them have abs, if I'm being honest. The hunting, the gathering lifestyle..." — Pete, 07:10).
• Their banter morphs into playful absurdity, as they make up holiday puns (“Happy Hollandaise”) and reflect on Pete never having had eggs Benedict or Hollandaise sauce, leading to a foodie tangent.

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2. Risky Foods, Oysters, and Rituals of Eating

11:18–18:00

• Discussion about Anthony Bourdain’s aversion to hollandaise and mussels, segueing into “bad oyster” as a gross-out phrase for Pete.
• Val shares childhood stories about Humboldt County’s Oyster Fest, the social aspects, and developing a taste for oysters later in life ("The whole town came together... I loved going to oysterfest because the whole town got together and just got schmammered." — Val, 16:43).
• Humorous, slightly gross riffs on oyster-related wordplay (e.g., “Slurp and Swallow” as an oyster bar name, and the failed “Goisters” sketch about tube oystering).

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3. Relationship Dynamics, Judgement, and Intimacy

18:31–22:30

• The couple discusses sexual preferences, privacy, and the feeling of “alone time” even during intimate acts. Pete uses humor to defuse the awkwardness.
• They touch on how relationship boundaries and preferences can change and how honesty about desires is important ("No one’s looking and you're just kind of like alone." — Pete, 19:09).

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4. Spiritual Practices: A Course in Miracles, Judgement, and Mercy

21:54–42:00

• Pete shares his current spiritual practice (A Course in Miracles), emphasizing confrontation with negative thoughts ("...you literally today the practice is to sit, close your eyes, and willingly invoke all of your hateful thoughts... and say, I could see peace instead of this." — Pete, 22:21).
• The duo dives into the internal landscape of judgment, defense mechanisms, and childhood wounds (internal family systems, “protector” and “exile” concepts).
• Notable analogy: defenders in your mind as WWII soldiers who never received the message the war is over; how healing is about honoring rather than shaming your defenses.
• Texting and boundaries: They explore how feelings of anger or overwhelm often indicate poor boundary-setting, not simply the actions of others ("The anger... comes from an inability on our part to set good boundaries, so we're taking it out on them." — Val, 31:43).

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5. Projection, Guilt, and Spiritual Forgiveness

34:23–42:00

• Pete illustrates projection by recounting feelings toward a friend, “Bon Belaney,” who rarely replies to texts. He links this to the psychological idea of projecting internal guilt outward, wanting others to be “guilty” so he can be “innocent.”
• The conversation explores how spiritual paths, like the Course, ask one to notice these impulses, forgive the external world, and reclaim internal peace.
• They reflect on the paradox of feeling both overwhelmed by communication yet hurt when others do not reciprocate, using it as an example of how easily we cast ourselves as victims ("I'm the victim when people text me, and I'm the victim when people don't reply to my liking." — Pete, 41:47).

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6. Family Influences, Fear, and Judgment

43:14–58:52

• Pete and Val examine Pete’s upbringing in a judgment-heavy household, and how that shaped his mind for stand-up comedy and his own inner work.
• Pete describes how parental models (especially his father) made fear and judgment his default lens, and how this ties to inherited ideas of God as punishing or distant ("I felt like a gazelle, and there was one lion in the crowd." — Pete, 58:48).
• Pete discusses a recent vulnerable moment with his father, who showed up at Pete’s show after being told not to—leading to a conversation about fear, respect, and God.
• The pair touch on how family dynamics often set the template for adult spirituality and self-conception.

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7. The Core Teachings of A Course in Miracles and Buddhism

61:17–79:44

• Pete unpacks the Course’s metaphysics: Non-duality, guilt, the “tiny mad idea” of separation from God, and the notion that the only true choice is between love and fear.
• The pair compare and contrast Course language with Buddhist teachings of non-separation, compassion towards objects, impermanence, and mindfulness.
• Buddhism’s comfort with impermanence and interconnectedness is contrasted with the Course’s view of the material as illusory, yet both converge on compassion and awareness (“Choose again,” is the centerpiece lesson).
• The discussion lands on the daily practice of recognizing patterns, surrendering to feelings, and then making conscious choices to shift energy ("The last chapter of the text is called 'Choose Again.'” — Pete, 76:53).

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8. Emotional Honesty and Surrender (Miscarriage, Grief, and Healing)

83:10–89:20

• Val vulnerably shares her recent miscarriage, the second during their attempts at having another child, and the resulting grief coloring her emotional landscape.
• The couple talk through the balance between surrender (feeling what is honestly present) and choice (consciously shifting emotional states).
• Val uses the metaphor of a toddler’s tantrum over a lost toy, illustrating the importance of both emotional validation and knowing when to help oneself move on.

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9. Poetic Coda: Mary Oliver

91:34–93:28

• Val closes the episode with Mary Oliver’s poem “Can You Imagine?”, a reflection on the silent joy and patience of trees—a metaphor for steadfastness, contentment, and presence.

"Surely you can't imagine they just stand there loving every minute of it... patience and happiness like that." —Mary Oliver, quoted by Valerie, 93:03

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s funny because it has the word original in it, and abs. A lot of them have abs, if I’m being honest.” — Pete (07:10)
• “Happy Hollandaise. And also a breakfast song.” — Pete (09:32)
• “Slurp and Swallow would be a great name for an oyster bar.” — Valerie (15:35)
• “I like 69 because it’s like a privacy booth... no one’s looking.” — Pete (19:03)
• “You say to those thoughts... ‘I could see peace instead of this.’” — Pete (22:41)
• “What I come back to again and again... if I actually had better boundaries, I wouldn’t have such a flare up...” — Valerie (32:03)
• “You want him to be guilty. The Course would say you dreamt him... so you could tell God, ‘See, I’m good, I try to stay in touch. They abandon me.’” — Pete (35:41)
• “I was happy with just, like, let’s just nibble the corner of a cracker.” — Pete (35:53)
• “Parents and family systems set the template for our relationship to God.” — Pete (61:17 paraphrased)
• “The last chapter of the text is called Choose Again.” — Pete (76:53)
• “Surely you can’t imagine they just stand there loving every minute of it... patience and happiness like that.” — Mary Oliver (read by Valerie, 93:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:20–11:00: Coffee date, holiday riffs, “Aboriginal,” Eggs Benedict, foodie detours
• 11:18–18:00: Oysters, “Goisters” sketch, Oyster Fest memories
• 18:31–22:30: Sexual honesty, privacy, comedy about intimacy
• 21:54–42:00: A Course in Miracles, negative thoughts, internal family systems, boundary-setting
• 34:23–42:00: Projecting guilt, texting, being a “victim”
• 43:14–58:52: Family influence, childhood, Pete’s father, show incident
• 61:17–79:44: Core teachings of the Course and Buddhism, oneness, impermanence, “Choose Again”
• 83:10–89:20: Val’s miscarriage and grief, emotional surrender vs. choice
• 91:34–93:28: Mary Oliver poem as a closing meditation

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Summary Tone & Feel

The episode balances Pete and Valerie’s trademark goofy, loving riffing with a deep dive into spiritual and emotional growth. It feels like being at an intimate brunch with two thoughtful, vulnerable friends alternately making you laugh, think, and feel deeply seen.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a great representation of both the humorous and profound aspects of We Made It Weird. You get the hosts’ silly side early, but the majority of the show is rooted in honest dialogue about healing, emotional awareness, and spiritual practice—with plenty of relatable, real-life examples and a dose of poetry at the end.

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Closing Moment

"Would you? All right, babies, keep it crispy."
— Pete & Val, sign-off

Transcript

[A]

You made it with.

[B]

You made it with.

[A]

You made it with. Oh yeah, you made it with. Yes you did. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening weirdos?

[A]

Hey, what's happening? Hey, hey.

[B]

What's happening weirdos?

[A]

This is a coffee date. We did it at 9:30 in the morning and I loved it.

[B]

I loved it too. We usually have an off mic coffee date and this time we just did it on. We did in front of some microphones.

[A]

What you do off you should do on. Let's just get to it as quickly as possible. Come see me on the road petehomes.com if you want to come see me do stand up. Just, just go look and see. I'm not going to list the dates. And here are the ads. It's Chris, it's, it's the holiday Christ time. And if you want, why not get a Pete's pick for yourself or someone you love? Here are the ads. They support the show. Try them out. Valerie. Why not try a Pete's pick like our friends at ritual? When I travel, speaking of being on the road, there's only two vitamins, two bottles of pills. I take a lot of different things, some for sleep, some for this. But the only ones that I absolutely always, always, always take with me are my ritual multivitamin and my ritual Synbiotic plus. Synbiotic plus is my pre pro and postbiotic. What does that mean? It means it's all of my gut health in one easy to take delayed release pill, which means it delays release which waits until it's in your lower intestine, which is where it needs to be to actually be effective. Probiotic, which means gut health. Your gut is basically like a second brain and keeping it healthy is super, super important for virtually every area of your life. Not to mention my ritual multivitamin. As a mostly vegan person, I'm deficient in a lot of vitamins that used to be in our soil, that used to be in our food. And now taking my ritual multivitamin, when I go to the doctor, I get no notes. No notes. And I can take it on an empty stomach, which is huge because if you, I don't know if you've ever taken something like zinc on an empty stomach, it will make you vomit. But ritual has a delayed release and a minty taste, so, so it gets into your system and breaks down in the lower parts into the lower intestine where you can actually absorb this stuff. But putting a Highlight on Synbiotic plus, the Propri Postbiotic contains two of the world's most studied strains. With over 350 publications of human clinical trials. It is a 3 in 1 clinically studied. As I mentioned, prebiotic, probiotic and postbiotic to support a balanced gut micro microbiome. It doesn't need to be refrigerated, which is huge. As I mentioned, I take it with me when I travel. It's a single nested minty capsule, which means it leaves a nice minty aftertaste in your mouth and it is designed to thrive, as I mentioned, delayed release, so it will break down in your colon, not the stomach, which is the ideal place for your probiotics to survive and grow. So show your body some love, show your gut some support, and show your support of this podcast. Symbiotic plus and Ritual are here to celebrate, not hide your insides. There's no more shame in your gut game to try making something new easier. Ritual is offering weirdos 10% off their first three months when you shop [e-mail] weird or if you prefer to shop in person, Ritual is now available at Whole Foods Market. But why not use the promo code and show that these ads are working? That's how we keep the lights on. Go to ritual.com weird do your body a favor and and show your support of this show. Speaking of products that I love and have changed my life. Living libations. You guys have heard us talk about living libations for many years. Our whole household is a living libations family. What does that mean? It's skin care, it's hair care, it's oral care. Everything that you put on or in your body for beauty reasons, for health reasons, to look good, to feel good. Living Libations has got you covered. Years ago, I realized I was being very careful about what I ate and what I put inside, but I wasn't being very careful about what I put on my body. When it comes to things like moisturizers or shaving creams or even dental care, a lot of these things are filled with chemicals and are linked to toxicity levels and disease. Stuff that is just never intended for human beings. So I was like, there's got to be another way to do this. There's gotta be skincare, for example, where I can read the ingredients and actually pronounce and recognize them. Because I want my food to be stuff that I recognize and I want my skin care to be the same. Enter Living libations. I now use their zinc based sunscreen. It's called Love the Sun. We use that for Leela every morning when we're getting her ready for. For preschool. Obviously you want to put good things on your kids skin. Their love the sun is the only one that I found that is actually natural. Meaning there's a lot of them that you see online that say they're natural, but they're absolutely not. They're still filled with chemicals. They're just a little bit clever about it. But the Living libation sun sun protection is actually zinc based and real and natural. I use their ginger exfoliating scrub, which I always say is not only natural and has ingredients I recognize, but it's the most badass exfoliant I've ever used in my life. I use their Zen shave. Both Val and I use their best skin ever moisturizer before bed. Smells great, feels great going on, and keeps your skin looking vibrant and. And alive because it's made with ingredients that are vibrant and alive. But this is a great company to support the show because I promise, if you want to buy something little or you want to do a complete house overhaul like we did, they have lots of stuff ranging from you can get a tongue scraper at Living Libations, or you could completely rehaul your entire beauty cabinet. Living Libations has a premium, natural and wonderful product to replace the random chemical nightmares that too many of us are used to. So go to livinglibations.com and use promo code GRATITUDEWEIRD. One word, capital G, capital D, capital W. Excuse me? GRATITUDEIRD, capital G, capital W. And that will get you your discount. That is 15% off, which is pretty great. And show your support of this podcast. Just go to livinglibations.com and use that promo code GRATITUDEWEIRD. All right, everybody, hope to see you on the road. Here is. We made it weird. Do you know the number?

[B]

115.

[A]

116.

[B]

116. Get into it.

[A]

I hear those sleigh bells ring a linding ding a ling.

[B]

Come on, it's lovely weather.

[A]

It's a didgerid. Finally, the sounds of. Can you say Aboriginal?

[B]

Aboriginal.

[A]

Thank you. Like, I just want to hear. Just want to hear another person say it. Can you say Aboriginal?

[B]

Yes, of course.

[A]

Aboriginal.

[B]

They are.

[A]

Yeah. Aboriginal. It's funny because it has the word original in it. And abs. A lot of them have abs, if I'm being honest. The hunting, the gathering lifestyle, they were.

[B]

The original people who had abs.

[A]

That's why the Aboriginals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so here's, here's. Well, here. Happy holidays.

[B]

Happy holidays. I'm not done.

[A]

Happy.

[B]

Holidays.

[A]

To you. Real quick, real quick. Real Real, real quick.

[B]

Yes, real quick. And then we'll continue.

[A]

Real K. Real K. Real K. Oh, my God. Real K. True insanity. That is a Christmas song, right? Happy Holidays. What I'm saying is, as soon as Sleigh Bells, you can be saying Happy Holidays, but nobody at. I know it's hacked to say Kwanzaa or Han. Han. Hanukkah Solo.

[B]

It's so hacked to say Hanukkah Solo.

[A]

Chewbacca.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Chewbacca celebrates Hanukkah Solo. Okay. We're having fun. What I'm saying is those are other this time of the year. Holidays.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Noting that we are too Anglo. I don't know what Anglo Saxon means. I.

[B]

But I think it's safe to say we are that. If it means white, then yes.

[A]

Well, waspy adds white. White, Anglo, Saxon, Protestant. So we are wasps.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Get your wasp repellent, guys. Which is world. I don't know what's was. I don't know.

[B]

I think that's a really good guess.

[A]

Good guess. Right off the spicy foods. Get your wasabella. Very spicy foods. I'm not talking Taco Bell fire sauce, because that was just like Vinegar Delight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so what I'm saying. Finish the riff. Finish the riff. Someone yells finish the riff. Finish the riff. Is nobody at a Hanukkah party is throwing on the Happy Holidays song.

[B]

Right. Even though it's technically.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Isn't this a missed as pigs? Call it slopportunity. Happy Hollandaise.

[B]

Happy Hollandaise.

[A]

And also a breakfast song. Can I say one? I've never had hollandaise sauce.

[B]

What?

[A]

I've never had eggs Benedict.

[B]

What? I know you don't like eggs that way.

[A]

Eggs. Loved it.

[B]

I know. I say eggs and legs. Okay.

[A]

It's cute. I love it. This is a real Pam and Jim Maugham. It cuts to me in the confessional. Pam says, eggs, and I think it's egg cellent and the show's canceled. Like, if it goes off of that.

[B]

Joke and it just says too much and then goes too much, too much, too much.

[A]

Do merch the AI that is watching.

[B]

Our TV for us, but Eggs Benedict. Eggs Benedict.

[A]

Don't you change.

[B]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to every day.

[A]

Eggs.

[B]

Eggs Benedict is one of my favorite breakfast foods of all time. And you can get it with scrambled eggs. And then you get to have the joy of Holland, which is one of the best flavors in the world.

[A]

What is the flavor? I think I know it's it's hard to. Savory.

[B]

Yeah. But it's hard to describe because you probably think it's like, a bland cream sauce, and it's not bland at all.

[A]

Vinegary.

[B]

It's a little bit. Maybe has that. It's like. I don't. This is the word that I use to describe any flavor that I don't know how to describe. It's a little umami.

[A]

That's very, very funny. I bet it is uma. Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

Um.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that mushrooms? Mushrooms.

[A]

Mushrooms can be umami.

[B]

I could see Holland being umami. I don't know.

[A]

We don't care. Meaning. No, I'm just saying risk it for a biscuit.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And that's also. Holland is so good on biscuits, so you should risk it for a biscuit.

[A]

Well, in Kitchen Confidential by the late Anthony Bourdain, he says one of the foods he'll never eat is hollandaise sauce.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because he's like. It's so delicate that if you leave it under a heat lamp for, like, I don't know, I'm not gonna make up the number. But a reasonable amount of time that it might be under a heat lamp, there's a chance it'll go bad, it'll curdle, and it'll make you sick.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But he also says muscles like mussels. Like, his list of foods he'll never eat. I don't buy it. I think he just means, like, these are risky foods. Don't eat it in, like, a place where there's not a good amount of. Not too much traffic, but not so much that it's, you know.

[B]

Yeah. He probably means, like, he won't eat it at regular.

[A]

You can say Red Lobster.

[B]

Yeah, Red Lobster.

[A]

Although Red Lobster. High traffic. Maybe that's the safest place maybe to have hollandaise. But he also says he'll never eat a mussel, because one bad mussel and you're like. I think, sorry, guys, but you're like exorcist barfing.

[B]

Yeah. People say a bad oyster and a bad.

[A]

I don't like bad oyster. I just realized.

[B]

What?

[A]

You know how some people don't like moist and don't like panties? These certain trigger words, forgive me to everybody, but I wanted to bring you into the boat that I'm in because bad oyster.

[B]

Not just oyster. It's bad oyster.

[A]

Yeah. Because I like oysters.

[B]

Okay, first of all, oyster kind of is, like, moisture.

[A]

Oh, yeah. A moist oyster.

[B]

Second of all, I feel like, I.

[A]

Guess Oyster is just moisture moister.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's moister than a land sea fish.

[B]

It's moister than a lobster.

[A]

Oh, my God. We wanted to. Do you know how they had gogurt?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We wrote a sketch me, Oren and Matt called Goisters. And it's a tube like gogurt. I know.

[B]

I can't believe you like that. But you don't even like the phrase bad oyster.

[A]

Well, that's J.J. abrams production company. Bad oyster. It's a bad robot riff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a bad, bad robot.

[A]

I, I actually, let's put it this way. Oysters and all that sort of stuff are so nasty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I don't want to poke the bear. Because being an A New England boy, I still would like to occasionally. Like, I just saw my old Prof. Mark Stevik and our friend Jamie, and we went out and we had oysters. And I'd like to continue to do that.

[B]

You know that.

[A]

But there's a real. I wouldn't even say it's a. Don't think about it. But they have to be really fucking cold.

[B]

Yeah, they do. And you have to have that vinegar sauce. I'm only in it for mignette sauce.

[A]

Is that what it's called?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Migonette. Maybe. Aboriginal also. Yeah. Restaurants that are just giving it with cocktail sauce. Why don't you just show me to where the pinball machine is and give me a Coors Light? That is some. That's not. It's not the same level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nothing wrong with pinball and Coors Light. But I'm just saying, once oysters hit the scene. White glovet champagne to be a chill. And minette sauce says we know what an oyster is supposed to be.

[B]

Do you know that I grew up in Humboldt? Do you know that?

[A]

What if I didn't? I'd be like. Are you okay? By the way, can I just announce. Just put the tiniest pin in this. I just want to announce that one. I'm very. This is the other thing I was gonna say. You grew up in Humboldt. Don't lose it.

[B]

I mean, now it's like, it's not worth it. Like, okay, we're not on an Oyster train right now.

[A]

We're gonna stay on the Oyster train. I just wanna say I've been very stressed this week and I'm very happy to be talking with you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're wearing your tomato red sweater and you're just glowing like Christmas itself. Christmas herself. And two, I just wanna announce that this is. I Saved my first sip of coffee for the podcast. So I have my wee espresso cup and I'm gonna sip it and tell me the rest of the oyster thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I just wanna be like, as a. As a. Like, I'm taking it serious. Best Pete is for a sip of coffee. Pete. So I'm saying. Here he is.

[B]

A moment of silence.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You got the slurp and the swallow.

[A]

Was it gross?

[B]

No, it was nice. But Slurp and Swallow would be a great name for an oyster bar.

[A]

The Slurp and Swallow, it's confusing. Every third person walking in clearly thought it was like a brothel.

[B]

A sex.

[A]

Oh. And yeah, I'll stay for. That's most of our business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. You're from Humboldt county and we, you know, weed.

[B]

We and weed. We had the Oyster Fest every year because it's. It's on a bay and there's just. It's like oysters aplenty.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't know that. I thought we went out to sea to get oysters.

[B]

Well, maybe we do, but it's also on the sea.

[A]

Oh, don't think that that was me subtly and passive aggressively correcting you. I really don't know where we get oysters.

[B]

Yeah, same with clams. Same with.

[A]

I've seen people shucking for something, but I.

[B]

But so we had Oysterfest every year. And I loved it in my early 20s because it was just the time that, like the whole town came together in the town center and there were.

[A]

Like around the Christmas tree, each one of the Christmas.

[B]

And each of the restaurants would like, make their own oysters. So it would be like the sushi place would do one with like soy sauce and to be go. Yeah. And then like the French place would have their own whatever version. And I didn't like oysters because I don't like big oysters, which is. It was always really big oysters. And I don't like cooked oysters.

[A]

Oh. Yeah. I've never really liked it.

[B]

And they were like fried or cooked, and I never really liked it. But I loved going to oysterfest because the whole town got together and just got schmammered.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of the disgusting cuisines are cultures that are like, if you get fucked up enough, you'll eat this oyster.

[B]

But it's not oyster. That doesn't apply to oysters because especially if you're doing a slurp and swallow, your gag reflex is heightened because you've been taking five shots of buttery nipples, which literally was a shot that we used to do. That's like cream based.

[A]

This is disgusting. Terrible. I just turned this podcast off. No, it's just. It's just challenging.

[B]

It is gross.

[A]

Let's move on from oysters. I'm not saying that in the like to shame you, but I'm like, I'm worried about the people listening.

[B]

But I was gonna say that I. So I never liked oysters during that time of my life. But sip number two, when we started dating, you were like whining and dining me a little bit and I was like, okay, now.

[A]

Right. I don't think we did that in their early days. I don't think we do it now. It's not really on the menu.

[B]

Keep going, keep going. Back on oysters.

[A]

I did. Brett Goldstein did Largo last time and he's like, I don't like 69. A bit. Bit about it. And I was like, why do I like it if I were. And I do. I mean, we don't do it. This is so funny.

[B]

This is ridiculous. Also, we sometimes.

[A]

Yes. I just want to say I feel comfortable ordering it.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

But I don't.

[B]

I'm actually really surprised. I did think that you didn't like it for the same reason. Because I don't really like it for the same reason that Brett said.

[A]

Oh no. I'm gonna tell you why I like it.

[B]

Why?

[A]

It's a privacy booth. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a blue. It's a bj.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And no one's looking and you're just kind of like alone.

[B]

So that's what you. What bothers you about BJ's is that you feel like it's a performance.

[A]

No. But if there is, and there always is with me and sex. Just a little bit of an awareness of like, this is the big show. We've been saying big show a lot lately. This is the big show we're doing. I don't feel this way with you. Completely true. But like, if you wanted a moment alone, have a 69.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If I'm listening to this podcast, I'm losing it. It's the. It's the sha. It's like, you know when you're in a relationship and you take a shower just for alone time or you're 69, like you're still. You're not talking, you're not looking at each other.

[B]

But isn't that true if it's. If it's happening with just one or the other, you're like kind of focused on Your work. You're not, like, it's not the, like, eye contact.

[A]

I'm not. And this sounds like I hate eye contact and intimacy. But, like. I don't know.

[B]

I think you're like, well, she's busy down. Down there. She's got her own project.

[A]

Really? I just take it as a moment to, like, think. Like, finally, a little privacy.

[B]

See, to me, it's like the last time I could think because I have two things happening. I have to focus on two different things at once.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. But getting doesn't require. It doesn't matter. Let's move on. You usually say too dirty, but I'm gonna say, this is too dirty for me. It is 9:20am I know.

[B]

Who knows when people are listening to this, though? They could be listening to it at 11:30pm which is sex, Alex.

[A]

And you could. To my point, you could be listening to it. Wow. 60, 90. Because no one knows you have earbuds in. That's a great summation of my point.

[B]

This is very telling. You're like, I need a moment where you don't look at me.

[A]

Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Yeah, but I. Maybe I am being defensive when we're doing it. I like being seen and seeing. I'm saying this is maybe more of a. A single thing. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or an older. I'm thinking of older relationships where you didn't have boundaries. So you're like, let's get a 69 because I need a breather. Well, that's probably it.

[B]

Well, there is no shame in liking it for whatever reason you like it for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. Yeah, I don't. Humble hasn't been my thing. Oh, humble. Oh, whining and dining and 69ing. Okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I would take you out to oysters a lot.

[B]

Yeah. And then I. That's the first time I had a mignette, and I was like, well, this is just vinegar, which is what I always want to be eating.

[A]

Yeah. You've ended friendships over people that don't. Not really.

[B]

But I have judged heavily people who don't like vinegar.

[A]

Your boy. As we've been discussing, one of the things I like about my current spiritual practice, which is a course in miracles. What I like about it is it's very confrontational. Not in a bad way, in a gentle way, but it's like, let's talk about all the judging you're doing. And I'm like, thank you. Like, literally today the practice is to sit, close your eyes, and willingly invoke all of your hateful thoughts. Your anxious thoughts, worry, dread, depression. Like, you call. Call them up to say to them, kind of like loving kindness, which is your path.

[B]

Which is my bag.

[A]

That's more your bag. But I love loving kindness as well, although I've never been drawn to do it for some reason. I got to work on that. That's. That's the privacy booth.

[B]

I was doing it in the car while you were doing your meditation.

[A]

I know, it was very cute, Tray.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

But you say to those thoughts. You say different things. But today you say, I could see peace instead of this, which I just think is really beautiful. And what I. What I find. And I'm not trying to shift us into the serious section of the pod, but what I like about that is I'm like, finally we're addressing it, that. That I have all of these knee jerk responses to certain things that I see, and they're pure insanity. So what I like about Eckhart Tolle, too, he's like, 99% of your thoughts are repetitive and useless. I was like, thank you. Like, finally someone's saying it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have no shortage of people going around pretending like their brains are totally safe neighborhoods and normal and boring. And I'm like, while we've been talking, I'll give a fake example. Cause it's just too vulnerable. I've thought about cutting you in half with a sword. You know what I mean? Or, you know, usually I am defensive. It'll be something more playful. But, like, if I'm annoyed by somebody, I'll imagine kicking them off a cliff. Like, just kind of like a wily. It's not like a violent image. It's like a Looney Tune image, but it's kind of like, boink. But, you know, it's. It's not kindness. And I'm not trying to become a doormat. I know that's. That's my own flare up. I'm like, am I gonna get stuck in every awkward conversation? Like, I'll have no way out? Which, by the way, was my question for Stephen Mitchell. Who's Byron? Katie's husband. I was like, katie is so giving. What happens when, like, people come up to her and just, like, want that hit, want that eye contact, that connection, and you guys are on your way to dinner. And I'll never forget, he goes, she's not a child. She knows how to go. Like, I have to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my difference is I'm like, I gotta go. And it's not in a kind way. I'm like, you get the fuck away from me, you leech.

[B]

That is really interesting.

[A]

And I think that's my dark thought, that's not my consciousness.

[B]

Sure. And I think that that is really telling the flare up of a doormat. Because this is your protector. Your protector is. Is imagining kicking off the cliff for your. Like in internal family systems, they call it your exile. It's like the soft part of you that got wounded and then put into exile. And a protector got put in place.

[A]

Very course in miracles, by the way. Oh, they're like, you got wounded as a child, so you built defenses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now there's an unlearning, which is to realize that to be defensive validates the reality that you are under attack. And by the way, I spent some time thinking about this last night that there are situations where you are maybe physically unsafe. You know what I'm saying? So you can't practice this while you're behind enemy lines, you know, metaphorically or literally. But like I do go around projecting onto things a feeling of I'm defensive and therefore it's attacking. They define each other.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's a state of mind.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

And when you see Eckhart Tolle or you see Byron, Katie, and we've been privileged to see them, it's like you don't see that what they did is. We talk about this all the time, but they went in and they cleaned off the lens of the projector instead of wiping the screen, which doesn't do anything. They're not trying to fix form, they're trying to fix content. They're not trying to fix the result, they're trying to fix the source.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's. And so of course, in miracles. Sorry, I know I interrupted. You're talking about internal family systems, but it's like they're talking about the true strength is the defenseless. And we kind of have language for this. Jesus being a lamb and gentle as a. I know he was crucified. It's not like the ego hates this. The ego hates everything I'm saying right now. But the true safe person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is the person that goes, I have nothing to defend against. Because they know who they are. They know who they really are.

[B]

Right. And that's childlike. Like that is what children are like. That's what Lila is like right now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so, and that. So that's the exile. That like pure one who is defenseless. But you ha in internal family systems, you have to get. You can only re Merge with that exile. Like, take them out of exile by going through the protector first. So if you try to just go straight to the exile, the protector will flare up even more.

[A]

Can I say Trey? Course in miracle.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm not surprised.

[A]

I keep saying Trey with no irony. I started saying it ironically, like, isn't it funny if I'm like, that's Trey. Oha. Now I just say it.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Okay, good. All right.

[B]

But yes, but yeah, so you have to fight. It's not a denial.

[A]

It's through.

[B]

It's through. You talk to the protector. You, like, you level with the protector. You let the protector know that, like, thank it for its service. You know, Jack Kornfield has that story that I'm sure I've told on the podcast before. I've heard Jack Kornfield tell it. I've also heard other people tell it. So it's not really his story. But when, like, they found, like 10 years after World War II ended, there were soldiers. I might not get the details exactly right, but there were soldiers on this, like, remote island that were never told that the war was over.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So they were. They were continuing to, like, put on their uniforms and guard their post for 10 years after the war was over.

[A]

Fix it with a phone call.

[B]

Just waiting. But that's right.

[A]

Yeah. No phones.

[B]

No, no. If you fix it with the phone call. So once they realized, oh, shit, these people have been. Are still doing this. And maybe it was only one guy. I can't remember if it's one guy.

[A]

That's a movie starring Tom Hanks.

[B]

Either way, it's a movie.

[A]

It's a movie.

[B]

Yeah, because it's so darling. The, like, they realize, like, you can't just call this person up and be like, hey, your life for the last 10 years has been a waste. Sorry.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, we'll send a plane.

[A]

The more compassionate thing to do would to be have the highest ranking official say, we've been running a training exercise. We've been monitoring you. This is all a lie. And you have passed and award them some sort of medal.

[B]

Well, what? That's kind of ruining the punchline. Because really, I mean, they didn't do the lie, but they, they put like, they had the high ranking official put on his uniform and go to the man and thank him for his service. And I don't know if they told him in that moment, but I think the story is like, they put on the uniform and they Acted like that was the end of the war and thanked him for his service.

[A]

Don't Google it.

[B]

And this is. I might be getting the details wrong, but the point is, this is what we do for our protectors. We honor their service. This is what you do for your thinking, mind you, very gently, go to it. And go, you did protect me. You wouldn't be doing what you're doing if it didn't serve a purpose at some point.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So thank you for your service. And also, you're released. The war is over. We can leave our post and get back to that tender purity that you were trying to protect, because now we have more knowledge. And the other thing I was gonna say is, you know, the anger. I find this in myself constantly. This is one of the key ways that we're really similar. When, like, somebody. When too many people are texting us or a friend is asking too much of us, we have this secret, like, real anger about it. Because the story is, don't you know what a toll this is taking on me? How can you ask this of me?

[A]

Mine is actually more INS saying, don't you know that I have five things to do right now?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is insane. And I don't mean insane putting it down. I just mean, like, that's where Byron. Katie's work comes in. They should know that I'm busy. Is that true?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And you're like, no, I'm often not busy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm often happy for a text.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I got a text from a guy yesterday was like, coffee tomorrow? And I was like, you don't. I'm under five deadlines right now, which I do happen to be. And I was like, you should fucking know that. And it's like, that's the craziness. By the way, I don't mean to be disrespectful with this language. I just mean that's the illogicality of the ego, right? That's like, you're hurting me. And you're hurting me deliberately.

[B]

You should know that better.

[A]

And you should know better.

[B]

So that is. The anger actually comes from, like, the anger of that protector voice comes from an inability on our part to set good boundaries. So we're, like, taking it out on them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Incredibly coarse.

[B]

And I believe it. This is why I'm saying it, because I know you're looking through everything with that lens. But that's. That is what I come back to again and again. When I remember is I'm like, oh, if I actually had better boundaries. I would trust my own boundaries so I wouldn't have such a flare up of, ah, you're gonna take advantage of me, you know. Cause I would trust like, no, I actually won't let you take advantage of me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So this is not a problem. I can just say I'm a little overwhelmed with plan. This is what I've tried to do. I've done it once, but I said to a friend, like, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed with all the planning right now. So I like, I need to come back to that. The more that I do that, the less I'm going to. When somebody says, hey, can this happen on the fifth go like, I don't know, like yes.

[A]

Oh my God, Val.

[B]

So it is so it there. The another way to look at it is because parts work does really help in. That's what internal family systems is. But also that's what looking at adult self and child self is is. Your adult self is your protector and your child self is like the one that like gets overwhelmed. And if the adult self has good boundaries, the child self learns to trust that and stops flaring up at every little thing.

[A]

And what a Course in Miracles is doing. And other spiritual practices that are similar are trying to say like, you're good. That's the whole thing. It's like, you're good, you're good. In fact, I get emotional when I read it. It goes like. But I read a line last night which was like, you don't have to earn your way back into heaven because you never left again. That's non duality taken to its logical conclusion. Meaning if there is a oneness with God, then we are currently one with God because it's all one. I get very worked up about this. So it's like. So if we're having an experience of duality, that's why I like the dream thing. It can be a gentle dream, it can be a good dream, it can be a dance or a play. I'm not gonna do the. The harsh. Like it's insanity and you need to like, let's leave that be for now. Yeah, but one of the things, and I wasn't planning on saying this, but there's a friend. So you said something about projecting your guilt onto other people.

[B]

Yeah. Get taking it out on them like you're angry with yourself for not having good boundaries. And then you take it out on them.

[A]

Right. That one of the things, the forgiveness A Course in Miracles is very, very, very, very heavy on forgiveness. And we've Already talked about that. Getting into touch with your judgments and all that sort of stuff. But like the forgiveness thing is very practical. I want to talk about you last night with Leela and your rage. That's going to be interesting. Maybe we'll do that after the mid rolls. But I'll just say that there's a friend, let's call him Bon Belaney. And I love Bon and I'm. And I consider myself on good terms with Bon. Whenever we see Bon, it's always very nice. But Bond's life is very. Is very. I don't know, it's changed, it's different. He's incredibly huge, famous, busy, all that stuff. And I get it. But I do find myself if I. If we text and he this often, Bond will reply and then I'll. He'll reply with a question. I just reply a bit. I send him a bit being like, remember this bit just kind of to be like a ping. Hey buddy, I don't want you to think that I'm like giving up on this relationship even though we don't see each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm saying, hey, remember this bit? Just for a laugh. He'll reply, and this has happened many times. Haha. Some. Some other. Yes. Hand to the bit. And then like how are you? And then I'll reply and I told him about our life and how it's changed and then how are you? And then like often that's the end of it. It's like a ghost. I don't even wanna say ghosting cause it's not a total ghost, but it's like I was happy with just like let's just nibble the corner of a cracker. And by the way, this isn't shots fired. This is just talking about a situation where you are tempted to go like hey. And maybe have your feelings hurt. And then what the course says. And this by the way, as you've heard me say many times, sometimes I find when you summarize or even explain the course, it just doesn't. It's not, it's not where the juice is. The juices is in like sitting with it quietly and letting it kind of like mix with you. I find that to be very transcendent and, and can give me altered states and a lot of beauty and goodness. So I, I'm aware that this example isn't going to be maybe as cool as it was for me in the retelling. But I go like, you want him to be guilty? The course would actually say you dreamt him. You Dreamt a character named Bon Belaney who would become more successful than you and not reply to your text so that you could tell God. See, I'm good. I try to stay in touch, they abandon me. Hell belongs there. There's some line in the course where, like, death is a happy price to pay. If you can say by your hand, I die, brother. Like, as long as you can blame someone else for it. It's deep psychology. It's real, real psychology. But like, I was like, as soon as I said that I didn't just forgive the situation because as Father Greg said, forgiveness is sort of a mental exercise. Mercy is a place. It's like, it's like the fountain of youth. It's like white water, like still white light infused water that you just drop the situation in. And like an Alka Seltzer tablet, it just dissolves. No efforting on your part. You just go like, oh, right. And this is where it gets a little chunky, funky. I feel guilty that I separated from God. I think I did something naughty in coming here and I can't handle that guilt. So not only do I feel the guilt, I'm gonna project it into a dream, which is John, which is.

[B]

People are gonna know what a slip up. Katie, edit that out, edit that out, edit that out.

[A]

But is Bon Belaney meaning Bon Bellini didn't do anything. In fact, I'm playing a game with myself and I find great relief in that. I'm saying my judgment and my guilt and my shame and my fear are so big, a lot of the time I need something extreme that goes like, you're dreaming Bon Belaney. You want him. In fact, you could even take the metaphysics out and just talk psychologically. You're texting him so he won't, you know, he won't. This has happened 10 times.

[B]

That's like existential kinky.

[A]

That's existential kinky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I get more juice out of the feeling that not only do I. Existential kink would say, I'm looking at the book over your shoulder. It's a great book. Existential kink. Check it out. Not only existential kink would say, I like sort of like tonguing a wound on my gums. Like, I like that sort of bad. Like pain, like pleasurable pain. But I like that the course is like, actually you think God is mad at you. And one of the ways and that is facts. Like, I've just gotten in touch with. I'm like, pretty sure I'm not saying all of me. It hasn't all been a lie. I believe God is. Yes. God is everything. It's abundant love, perfect love, all that stuff. But there is a part of me that's still sort of like, but I'm a bad little boy, and he can't wait to slash me out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I go, but that's too much to bear. So I'm gonna say, look, God, it's actually Bon Bilaney. And he doesn't reply to, hey, he's the evil. I'm good. I'm the victim. That's what Ken Wapnick says. The whole course, the whole point of the ego is I exist. I'm special, I'm different. I'm separate, and it's not my fault. So you start by blaming your parents, and he's like, that's perfect. Then you blame everybody and everything. Traffic, delayed flights, bad food, cold coffee. Everything is just getting the feeling of guilt off of you and going, see, it's them, it's them, it's them, it's them, it's them. And I'm not saying that's for everybody, but when old Holmesy reads that, I'm like, that feels right to me.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Well, it is so funny. Just one little note, because I want to make a bigger, better point, but that. We were just talking about that. You used that example with dear old Bond. Because we were just talking about how texts can overwhelm us. And so it's so easy in that moment for me to see how.

[A]

Oh, my God, He.

[B]

He is doing actually the kind thing where he's like, I want to check in with you. Like, I want to. I want us. You to know that I care about how you're doing. But if you ask me how I'm doing, I. When people say, how are you? I'm like, I don't even know how to begin to text this. Fine. Most of the time, I'm going through a funk. I don't know, like, how often in.

[A]

The typing my reply, I felt panic, pure bliss, peace and dread.

[B]

Yeah. In just writing.

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

Like, yeah. Yeah. So it makes perfect sense that that is happening.

[A]

As soon as you say that, I'm like, we just.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Swung from the branch of like, I can't handle people texting me. Do you want to get coffee tomorrow?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that. That I'm the victim of them. And then in the next example, you. I'm stealing your point.

[B]

You're switching, and you're still the. Or. We're. I'm with you.

[A]

I'm the victim of people when they text me, and I'm the victim of when people. When I text people and they don't roll reply to my liking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is. This is the whole thing. This is Eckhart Tolle. This is Rupert Spiro. This is a course in miracles. This is a lot of. This is Ram Dass. It's like, the first step. And this is what we were saying. It's through. It's not going, like, cut it out. I just smacked my own hand. Stop it. It's not. Stop it. Yeah, just catch it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were like, even lose your temper. Even get mad, even be grumpy, even. Whatever it is, just don't justify it. Is the word that Ken Wapnick uses, meaning Ram Dass would say. Don't identify with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't. Don't believe the hype, I guess.

[B]

Well, I. I also just wanted to say I was thinking this yesterday, just, like, on my own, while I was driving or something. I was like, this is so. Such a big. Part of what I love about you is that you are determined to face and fix, for lack of a better word, your heel, your. Your judgments. Like, that is, like, where a lot of your work lies and where it has lied. And where does that come from?

[A]

My desire to fix my.

[B]

Where does that come from, really? Cause your parents. It's really easy for me to say.

[A]

We just got into color bars. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've talked about this a lot, and.

[B]

I know this is sort of the, like, the ego that's not your fault, but just, like, that's not even my intention is to let you off the hook. I just. The way that I see it is. It seems so clear to me that it's not who you are at all, but your parents, for their own reasons, were very judgmental and really showed that to you guys as kids and so, like, trained you to be that way.

[A]

Yes. And I can even hear my ego saying, to good effect. My father judged his reality so hard, he transcended.

[B]

That's what I mean.

[A]

They had their own reasons out of his. I'm not saying my dad still identifies with his neighborhood and everything. He's still Jenny from the block.

[B]

I knew you were gonna say that. Yeah.

[A]

But, like, he did. It's like, how I sort of feel about my college. It's like, a lot of the people that went to my college, like, work for my college or, like, stay in that circle. It's hard to kind of break out of it once you're in that stream.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my dad has, like, a lot of movies and stuff where it's like, you don't live. You don't leave Framingham. And my dad's like, I'm gonna leave Framingham even though I don't. Anyone that's done this. Yeah, not from framing him, but. Yeah, but. But he did it with the. The harsh sword of. Of scalding hot judgment. And then my mother was like, I'm a Lithuanian immigrant. People are literally throwing cabbages at me. And I'm going to judge this so hard that I'm going to.

[B]

That then I'm not the one marry out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they had their reasons. It's totally understandable. But they definitely. It was like you were going to a boot camp for how to become judgmental. And then you also used that to become a comedian. Like, that plays a big role in stand up.

[A]

It's. Yeah. It's just constantly dark underbelly. Yeah.

[B]

Having opinions about. I remember that being a sensation. And now I'm a little bit more merged with you in this way. But, like, when we first started dating and you were taking me to oysters, I remember being like, whoa. He has a very strong opinion about literally everything.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there. That is so. That was just so not my nature where I'm just like. I don't know. Some things I feel totally neutral about. Yeah, but that's.

[A]

That's comedian training.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, you can't. When someone says, how are you? You launch into 50 things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want Splenda? And you launch into your thing about Splenda.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have to.

[B]

You have to. So it serv you well, too. But there is. It must be. The only explanation I can think of is your wise knowing. So maybe that's the divine. Maybe that's, you know, the Holy Spirit.

[A]

Or just, of course, would call it the Holy Spirit, but. But Rupert would call it your awareness, your pure awareness.

[B]

Pure awareness.

[A]

Your pure being.

[B]

And in psychology, there is usually like some version of. And in internal family systems, too. Like, there is your wise healer. So it's your pure self that sort of orchestrates the whole healing. Like, I need this in order to heal. And you have that voice because that's the only place it could come from. You didn't really have any examples of why, like, judge. Like judging not being good.

[A]

Well, this is also the course. The course says that the Holy Spirit, which is. It's actually not Quite just being the Holy Spirit is the memory of oneness. So it is just another way of saying that pure being in you. Yeah, but it says the Holy Spirit or that oneness uses the ego to disarm it or to walk it back or walk it down the ladder. And I don't know why, where I was going, but like, ah, fuck, it doesn't matter. Let's do the mid rolls and then we'll come back and I want to talk about your. Everything you're saying is beautiful. So there'll be no gap for us. So we'll remember what we're talking about.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then when we come back, I also want to hear about your. Your rage moment last night.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is. I didn't witness it, but okay. So we'll be back in literally two minutes. Pardon the interruption, weirdos. This wonderful episode is brought to us by our friends at Mizzen in Maine. No joke. I said, I guess it's. And Mizzen and Maine, I like to say Main. Mizzen and Main are the clothing company that I am most excited about. It is so hard to find clothes when I am touring that are comfortable enough to wear on the plane, that are wrinkle resistant, all of that stuff that are going to stay looking good, that are warm enough, but not too warm, and also look fantastic on stage. I really can't overstate this. I'm not just saying this. I'm not reading it off the monitor. Mizzen and Main makes the best dress shirts and some of the best pants that I've ever owned. But specifically, their dress shirts fit fantastic. They have amazing cuts, and the fabrics and the patterns and the style are second to none. I've completely done an overhaul. I absolutely, absolutely love them. 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[B]

All right, we're back. I just want to make sure there was. I feel like there was another point. Oh. I wanted to say. So, yes. You. You're so good, and.

[A]

Oh, that's very kind. I interrupted a compliment about.

[B]

Yeah. About just looking at these things and. And wanting to heal that in you. And it makes sense that the course really applies. Helps you with that. I do feel like, for me, and maybe I haven't just. I just haven't looked at this yet, but I know that there's judgments for sure. Like, I make judgments about people.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

This is 100%, but not to the extent that that is my main work.

[A]

Well, yeah, I sharpened it. I took an aspect of everyone's brain, and I sharpened it because it's very funny to call the shots or call out the situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This guy's a close talker. This person. This person's too loud. That. That's funny. So it became the stick that I hunted my food with.

[B]

I also think that there's just. It makes sense, the course. You know, like, wisely says, you've told me, like, this is a path. This isn't the only path. And it. It makes sense, you know, like. Like how. You know, I understand, like, polyamory and all of that, because I'm like, there should be as many different relationships as there are people. Like, people are different enough that they need different things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there should be as many paths. And I think there are, like, spiritual paths as there are people. So your specific, Like. Like the plinko, like, going through your specific wounds. This makes sense because it goes straight to the, like, judgments and all of that. Whereas I.

[A]

And also guilt and fear of God, which other people might not have.

[B]

Might not have.

[A]

And I was sort of raising Leila being like, I don't want you to.

[B]

Well, that's what I. I was gonna say. Like, I would love to. And I'm sure that it exists. And actually, we know somebody. Oops, sorry. Cynthia Morgan, our wonderful hypnotherapist, is very into the course in miracles. And I know she wasn't raised religious, but I do think. I would imagine it. It draws a lot of people who were. Because that idea of. And I know that it's not the course that the course doesn't say that God is spiteful, but that you believe that God is spiteful. And people who were raised religious probably are like, yes, I do. And it might come from there. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because remember, I was home in Boston and we didn't even talk about this. Do you know we didn't talk about this. So I did my show at the Wilbur, and I told my parents not to come, and my dad came, I think I thought. Did we talk about it?

[B]

About it? Yeah.

[A]

All right. Well, I actually don't want to wallow in that victimhood because it really makes me feel.

[B]

I honestly don't remember if we did or not. I have a vague.

[A]

I remember we didn't talk about it right away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a short story. I told him not to come, and it felt really hard to do my stand up. It was.

[B]

He did come.

[A]

He came.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was actually about to go on stage, and one of the backstage people had their hand, like a Secret Service agent, their hand in their ear, and they went, your dad's here. So it wasn't just that he came. He came, and he didn't have a ticket, which causes a kerfuffle, which means I'm going to be told. And they're like, do you want your dad to come in? And I'm like, I immediately, because I had no time. I was about to go on stage, tried to turn it into, like, that. That's sweet. And there is something that's sweet about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do sort of wish he hadn't told me, and I also sort of wish he hadn't come because I told him not to come.

[B]

He. He was violating your boundary.

[A]

But then once he did come, I leaned into, like, there's a sweetness there. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also. No, I. I don't even. Now, child, Pete doesn't feel safe being like, I didn't want him to come.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Well, it was nice to you. I was like, this is really interesting because when I talked to you right after, and you were like, it's not a big deal. It's kind of sweet. And I was like, yeah, that was denial. I'm really upset, and I think you might be, too.

[A]

No, I was very upset. And the voice of that upset was like, there's not room in this theater for me to do what I'm doing. And my feelings about you, it doesn't even. And the feeling that I had was, I really. And I know this is an exaggeration, but when you're dealing with feelings about parents, meaning what it was in the moment, wasn't this. I'm just saying my interpretation, my lens was I felt like a gazelle, and there was One lion in the crowd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was just supposed to relax.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

And then I have bits about. How about making fun of my dad? And nothing harsh, but there's one line where I say I'm terrified of my dad. I jokingly say, I go, give me the fucking phone. I go, I didn't say that I'm terrified of my dad. Just like a little throwaway. And then the next day, we were having breakfast, my mom and my dad and I kind of. We were really just sitting around drinking coffee, and my dad said, are you really afraid of me? And I was. But he didn't even say it like that. It was almost like I could tell that he sort of liked that I was afraid of him. And then I was like, oh, no, because again, no room for. For truth. I want to be like, yeah, I have like an irrational fear of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In fact, when I do my mind searching exercises, always images, you'd think it would be my mom always at my dad. Like these weird recurring feelings. It defines me. This, like, weird. I'm the son to this giant kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I go, no, even though the answer is yes. And then he go. And then he's quiet. And this is one of those moments where it's like so transparent what he's thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's almost like, not embarrassing. Yeah, it's a little embarrassing. He's quiet. I go, no. And he goes, are you afraid of God? And I'm like, oh, you're just drawing a conclusion to me. I could be wrong. You can tell that I am afraid of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, in the way. You're afraid of God.

[B]

Yeah. He said, because I'm God. I believe he said before he said that he was like, like fear, like something about, like fear and respect are linked.

[A]

Like God.

[B]

Like God.

[A]

But when. When he said that, I was like, no. Yeah, I'm not afraid of God. But the real truth is yes. Yes, I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were saying, not all of me. That's not. It's not binary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I hit the big no. Hit the big yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But nothing is gained from not being completely honest, I don't think. And going like, yes. There's residual or there's just something made me. I'm at its mercy. It can do whatever it wants. And what am I gonna do about it? It's the lion in the audience watching my life. That's still in there. And again, there is a parallel to my father and my mother.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

I would Just all of that is to say, talk about the course not being for everybody. One of the things that I. Again, it doesn't. I never like it when it's summarized as much as I like it when I'm just participating with it. But it would say that again, I have no problem buying this. If it's all one, that that means it's all one right now. It's not like it becomes all one later. It means it is all one. And it always, always was all one. God is one. The whole thing is one. Then I go, then what are we doing here? And I don't mean that it's a mistake. It just goes like, we're having a two experience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So what's going on here? The course again, don't like the summary, but it would say the ego told us to kind of control us and keep us here. You killed God. You murdered him. And don't worry, I got you. I'll make you God. I'll make you special. I'll make you unique. And we can hide here. We have a world of our own making. And the whole thing is our guild projected. But it doesn't tell us that. But, like, we get to play here. But Ken Wapnick, who, you know, I listened to his lectures. He's like, but have you ever noticed in horror movies, when they kill the bad guy, they're never dead? He's like, that's what's going on here. It's like, the trick is, but we didn't kill God. We actually. And we know that we're lying to ourselves. We go, we killed God and we're guilty. But really we know he's not, and he's mad. So an angry father is pursuing a guilty son. And we're waiting for, like, in Scream, where the killer always pops back up, or. I know what you did last summer. I was like, I know what you did last summer is certainly a great exploration of psychological guilt. But when I started studying this, I was like, it's also a good exploration of spiritual guilt. If that. If that. Again, these are metaphors. These are symbols that can't literally. I don't know, we can't literally talk about these things. But I was like, given my Gazelle lion relationship in my family system, it makes sense that I would take that into my religious understanding. All this father imagery, all this Old Testament stuff, all this fire and brimstone, all that sort of stuff. And I like that. Something goes like, let's work with that. Let's not deny it. Let's Say like you are afraid and I'm going to walk you gently back to reality. Your father is not a lion. God is not a lion. No one's waiting to devour you. In fact, you're already there. You just kind of need to gently and slowly wake up and realize that the whole thing. I love the line in the course. It says that all of duality is a tiny mad idea at which the Son of God, which is us, forgot not to laugh. Meaning do this. But why. Why take it so seriously? It's an illusion. It's a dancer, it's a play. And you don't have to be so serious about it. Why so seriously?

[B]

Wait, say that again.

[A]

I've never quoted that to you.

[B]

No. What is this?

[A]

From into the mind. It's of course, a miracle. Into the mind of God crept a tiny mad idea.

[B]

Yes, you've told me that part.

[A]

And that is the idea that I could be separate from God.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then from that idea, which was harmless. It's not a. It's not a sin. It's. It's.

[B]

It's not a bad thing.

[A]

Which is an error. It's just. Or. Or it's not even an error. It's. It's just sort of like a. A what if.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that spawned the whole universe, basically. That's the Big bang is an aspect of God when. What if I wasn't one? And. But then carrying. And this is where the psychology comes in, carrying into that creation myth is a feeling of like, I left. It's the prodigal son. It is the prodigal son. It's also the Garden of Eden. It's the same story.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's. I left my father's house, now I'm with the pigs and I've squandered my inheritance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the story is you got to go back, but you don't want to go back. You go back. Maybe I can be a servant and you go back and. And the father says, kill the fattened calf. Celebrate for what was lost is found. My son has returned. It's a great story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. That's the. The. I think that's both.

[B]

What's the last part? Get to. That was the part I wanted to hear.

[A]

Into the mind of God crept a tiny mad idea, the idea of separation at which the Son of God asks. Forgot not to laugh. Meaning. It's absurd. It's.

[B]

Forgot to laugh.

[A]

Forgot not to laugh. It's just fancy kind of Bible language to say we forgot to. We forgot not to laugh. We forgot. We should have laughed. We had a crazy idea and we.

[B]

Should have been like, we forgot to laugh.

[A]

So we forgot to laugh.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. I like the last part of that. Every other part, I don't, you know, it's not resonating with me right now that this is a tiny mad idea or that any part of that is that this is, you know, But I understand, like, it helps to not think of it. When I hear that, I'm like, well, this is just an error then. And that seems insane. How could that beautiful tree that I'm looking at right now, and my response to it be some sort of error. But that's. But you did just explain it in a way that I can, you know, I can see where it's. It's not an error. It's just. Is like a thing that happened.

[A]

This is the nasty. But I also want to say Rupert would disagree. He would say, how could perfect love have a mad idea unless it was mad again? To which I would say, well, it's a metaphor. This is just a series of symbols. It's not really about the literal interpretation of the story as much as it. Where does it take you and what does it unlock in you that you can start moving things around and finding more peace and less fear. And for some reason, this story does that for me. It pays out in that way. I will tease that the courts would say. And I. This is my least favorite part too, because I look at trees. This morning we got up and looked at the sun. Dr. Andrew Huberman says, look at the sun in the morning or like, get some sun on you, not through a window. So we went out and the sprinklers were on and it was misting and.

[B]

It was cold going through the trees and then on to the, like, gorgeous. It was beautiful.

[A]

So the course would also say, everything you're looking at is the Son of God. It's the same as you. You. It's all one. It's all one thing. So in some of the more far out things, it's like, you should be kind to objects. You should be gentle with objects. You should be grateful to your car. Don't just, like, kick the tires and bash it when it doesn't work and all this stuff. Be gentle, be kind, be respectful. A lot of the lessons are like looking at a rock and just acknowledging its divinity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it is. It's. It's part of the split mind of God. Everything is, but it's part of the split mind of God. So it's precious. But it would also say, and this is where it gets a little tricky, that tree is going to die. It's temporary. That's part of the, you know, we can sort of shut that out of our minds. It's also in a kill or be killed system. Nature, even though it's beautiful, is incredibly kill or be killed. And we do just sort of compartmentalize that and not think about it. So it's decaying and dying and impermanent, which is a huge tragedy, you know, or at least can make you feel sort of weird. And also it is sucking water out of the soil, stealing it from other trees. Again, this isn't my favorite trip. Yeah, I'm just saying it's saying, yes, it's beautiful, but also, look, you don't even know. I guess to my brief cursory understanding of it, it would say, you don't even know. You think you've made a heaven out of your reality, but you don't know what heaven is. You don't know what joy is. You don't know what peace is. You're just doing the best you can and seeing it in a. In a specific way.

[B]

Yeah, that's so interesting because there is parts of that that really do go with Buddhism. Like, Buddhism is also like, everything is. I was kind of telling you this yesterday and barely understand it because that's one of the things. Like, for the most part, I would say my spiritual practice is Buddhism. Like, that's what all my teachers are. But the way that Buddhism uses the word mind sometimes doesn't work for me as that word. But they would say mind is everything. It's not just the humans that have minds and the animals or the. Even the plants. It's like everything in life is imbued with mine, and mine is this sacred, holy awareness. And there is no separation. That's the oneness between, like, it's all happening in my awareness, and it all is awareness.

[A]

And it's your awareness that gives it.

[B]

Its reality, and that is what makes it sacred and holy. So that is. That seems really similar to the course. And of course, it's like what you said about, like, staring at a rock and noticing its divinity. That is mindfulness. It's being completely present with whatever you are being with. And in that becomes. You're making it holy by being that. It's like Tara Brock tells a great story about, and I think we've shared it on the podcast, about how she gave her son an ant farm when he was younger and he would spend, like, hours just watching these ants, building their society. And then he went to school one day and saw kids just, like, killing ants, like, stomping on a bunch of ants. And he, like, couldn't believe that they would do that. And she explained, when you give your attention to something, it begins. You get. You see it really clearly.

[A]

And I bet I said this last time, Wilson.

[B]

Yeah, Wilson. Yeah, exactly. So. So that does become holy. I think the difference. It would seem like what the. The difference is there and what you were explaining is in Buddhism, the Dharma teaches that you can fall in love with impermanence. You can love the nature of impermanence, that everything dies. You can get to a point where you see the beauty in it. Our judgment that that is bad or a problem is. Is where the issue lies. It's not the impermanence itself that's interesting.

[A]

I never even considered that it is a judgment. That would be a question I would ask my course teachers if they were alive. But there are course teachers that are. That there is a judgment inherent in, like, this is wrong, this is an error.

[B]

And the fact that it dies. Or the fact that. And Buddhism would also say, like, yeah, the fact that this. This plant feeds off of the soil and takes its nutrients. That's. That's interconnectedness. And there's nothing more holy than that.

[A]

I agree. But Buddhists are always the. Are also the people that will hop a cemetery wall and sit with the corpses and meditate for days. Meaning. I have used some of these ideas as a way around the nastiness. I think I told you that when I smoked five meo, one of the people in our group had a really bad, kind of like a crucifixion experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, I have nowhere to file this except fear. Like, this just scares me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the course goes like, no, the ego is vicious. The ego believes its killer be killed. The whole world is attack, and you have to attack it. And not only that, but God wants to attack you, so you have to attack him first. And now when I think about that trip, I'm like, I'm not saying that this is what it is. I go, oh, I get it. And I have a little bit more of a framework for, like, war and megalomania and narcissism and selfishness, all of these things. I'm like, right, because people are scared. And the Corsica scared people can be vicious. And I was like, oh, not only can we be vicious, we also think we deserve to be punished. The course would say that's a big part of regular meaning non coarse Christianity course isn't Christian, but I'm just saying. But the biblical Christianity is that like it's all about specialness. God chooses you, God saves you, or even God judges you. Oh, what was it, what was I gonna say?

[B]

The ego can be vicious and the.

[A]

Oh, and also that you, you want to be punished. Like you. There's a part of you that wants to get caught and thinks you deserve it and all.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think Buddhism would probably, the perspective of Buddhism would be like, you, you, you're so lost in your separateness that your, your thinking mind does want to be punished because then there is a you to be punished.

[A]

That's exactly what the course is.

[B]

Yeah, I could, I could see that. I, I don't know, it wouldn't really. That I have heard and I'm sure I, I am not an expert in the Dharma. I'm still really, really learning that or the Greg, there's like a. There is a lot to learn there. But I haven't yet come across anything that is equivalent to that. Like you, you know, you have this inherent guilt. The only thing I've come across is Tara Brock talking about the evolutionary cause of guilt, that we needed guilt and shame to keep us a part of the pack for survival. So that was, that's more of like a psychological thing. But you know, really it all comes down to it seems like the course really has this whole story and metaphor and worldview and the Dharma does too. And it's diff. It's slightly different, but the practices are really similar. So like, even though the philosophy behind it is different, the practices are really similar. And this might not be true of the course, or it might be true for some people who are really into the course and some others want the story. But you don't need to have the story in either case. That's for the benefits of the practice to come into place. And that is where like, I just love to like, for me, it feels good to take like all of this theory and we're just like in our language centers and in our brains and like pull it down into this moment and into our bodies to integrate. And it really is so simple. And I just heard it described this way yesterday. The practice of mindfulness, and I think you'll relate to this in the course is getting stuck in your patterns, Noticing when you're stuck in your patterns and making a different choice again and again and again and again.

[A]

That's exactly the chorus I know. Choose again I believe the last chapter of the text is called Choose Again.

[B]

Choose Again.

[A]

And the whole point in the lesson yesterday I was mentioning, like, it's not even to stop your anger or your judgment or your. Whatever it is. It's just. Even just asking for help is a little ping on your sonar that goes, I'm acknowledging that there is another way, even if I don't take it.

[B]

That's right. That's so Buddhist. That's really Trey Buddhist. It is. And that's why the meditation practices focus on your breath. When you notice you're lost in thought, your regular patterns choose another way. You choose to go back to your breath again and again and again. And then that. That happens in bigger, off the cushion, bigger ways where you're like, when I notice I'm about to judge this person or react, I remember that I have a choice.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the Joanna Macy, who is this person I discovered yesterday and I'm like, so excited about, She's a brilliant dharma teacher. She was like, it's all about remembering that you can choose which version of reality you're going to get behind. And that element of choice. I would say the two main things I forget when I'm suffering is that I have a choice. That I don't have to just succumb to whatever emotion or mind state is befalling me.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That I have a choice and that I belong here. That I am part of this.

[A]

This is the. This is a course in miracle. Summarize. In fact, Ken Wapnick would say the only choice, the only freedom, the only true freedom in the dream reality is your freedom to choose. He's like, that's the only mechanism that matters. He also says, just to go back to what you were saying, that Jesus in the text doesn't ask for perfect metaphysicians of the course that can explain it and defend it and all that sort of stuff. It's just, that's why I love my story about Bombalaney and going like, oh, right, I just caught myself wanting to be a victim and wanting to have attack thoughts and wanting to justify my innocence by someone else's guilt. And that is the benefit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know why I need, like, the Listerine. I say that with love, but the Listerine of spiritual practice.

[B]

Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with it.

[A]

I just needed more shock therapy and I even needed a. I'm going to say this with love, but a weirder story like Buddhism to me, I don't know. I really, I don't know why it's never called me. I love David Nichturn. I love Jack Kornfield. I love Sharon. These are friends of ours.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

And I love them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for some. For some reason, I just need someone to come and put a gun to my head. Like, I really need a little bit more intensity. Intensity. More intensity.

[B]

What's that from?

[A]

It's from Lawson. Translation.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's the only direction he gets during the photo shoot. More intensity. And he's like. That's all he said? It sounded like he said a lot more than that. More intensity. But like this. I love this conversation, as always. I'm not trying to wrap it up. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't. Whatever increases peace, decreases fear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And whatever gets you noticing unconscious patterns and interrupting them and making you make another choice. So the decision maker is a big thing. That phrase doesn't appear in the course. But. But the way that Ken teaches it is. It's like it comes down to the decision maker. And I finally found something in one of his books that defines the decision maker. And it's the part of you that is witnessing your thoughts. So it's the witness and the Witness, not just brain, not just, like, positive thinking. But the witness can go one way or the other. It can either choose Jesus or the Holy Spirit or God or love as its teacher, or it can choose the ego or fear. And it's just that.

[B]

Trey Buddhist. Trey Buddhist, right. And that's why the observer in Buddhism is so. I mean, that's the whole thing, is that you observe your thoughts. And the freedom, once you practice just observing your thoughts, the freedom is that you realize that your choice is to either believe your thoughts or not to. And it's that I could see peace inside of this.

[A]

So today I'm going, oh, there's a scary image of my dad. You know, I could. I'd actually have to close my eyes. I can't recount it, which is what's so interesting about your unconscious. But if you close your eyes and go, what am I stressed about? Weird violence, weird fear, weird panic, weird dread. And everyone that comes up, you just calmly say, I could see peace instead of this. I know as I'm saying that that sounds like you're judging it, but you're really just reminding yourself that you have that choice. A choice.

[B]

And so this is what I've been really interested in. And I know I've brought up on the podcast because it always comes up, but it came up in my mindfulness group, yesterday, the dance. And sometimes tension even between surrender and choice and how, like, both are required. So there is a surrender. And that, I guess probably in the course that would be the forgiveness. The, like, surrender to. This is what the reality is. And this. I'll put it in really practical terms. I'm feeling my. Like, my heart is kind of closed, and I don't. And I'm. I know how I usually feel at Christmas and how I want to feel at Christmas, and I'm. And. But, like, my heart is just a little bit more closed. Like, I. I'm. I can feel that I'm in a moment of attract.

[A]

Forget. You just moved. And there's, like, a whole thing. Last night, by the way, all of my dreams were packing up things and moving them. I was like, how are we gonna move the espresso maker? Like, it was just that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Still having those dreams.

[B]

We've had a lot of different. Some, like, really sad things happen in the last few months. Like, there's been a lot of life.

[A]

I had a. Oh, right. Sorry, baby.

[B]

Yeah, it's okay. I mean, we can talk about it, but we. But.

[A]

But this is.

[B]

We'll talk about it another time.

[A]

I had a. That's your. That's your Bon Balaney. I'm embarrassed. I don't want you to think I don't have that on the card. You know, I'm not good with time.

[B]

No, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, you probably can put it together. I had a miscarriage when we first moved here, and it was my second one that I've had since we've been trying to have a kid, but this one was further along and. And really devastating as they are. So there's been. And we'll talk more about that later. But there has been a lot of life in the last four months, and so all of that is helpful to remember. But what usually happens. So I'm like, oh, I just feel, like, a little bit more down and a little less open to life. And, like, my heart is closed and this is not how I want to feel. And I like, what's wrong with me that I feel this way? And. And it is helpful to have people be like, no, this is understandable. You feel this way. Okay, but I feel this way. So what am I gonna do? The first step is to surrender to, like, can. Okay. I feel this way instead of resisting and spinning out of control about how I wish I felt different. And what am I? A missing Christmas and all these stories that aren't very helpful. Helpful Can I just surrender to the fact that I feel this way? This is how I feel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And allow it. So that was your experience last night, where. Yeah. So it's like, where do I feel this in my body and can I be with it? And I've been doing that for the last several weeks, it feels like. But then really today, I just. It, It. It's like I can feel it recreating every morning where I wake up. I feel, you know, when you're sleepy, you haven't. You haven't yet had time to evaluate how you feel. And that's actually kind of peaceful for people like us who are always evaluating how we feel. And it's like, you're fresh in the morning. And then I feel that I pick up my bags of like, oh, right. I'm in this phase where I'm feeling kind of low and I'm not feeling how I usually want to feel, and my heart feels closed and I'm looking at the beautiful view and I'm just not feeling it as much as I usually feel it. And, like, I'm picking up all the briefcases of the day. So then, of course, I'm perpetuating that reality. So there comes a point, and the only thing I can think of for when to do this, when to go from surrender to choice, is that it is a practice and attunement. Like, your equipment will know when it's time. You just have to trust that it will know when. Have I gone from allowing this to be how it is to ruminating about now? I'm just creating more and more and more of this. And that is when. And I just had it this morning where I was like, okay, we've allowed this, and it still is allowed, but I'm introducing choice into this. I know the things that will change my energy and make me feel better. I'm going to actively do those now. Like, that's. That's enough of it. And the other really great example makes. That helps me with this is if you have a child or know a toddler, you can benefit from this too. Leela will. Let's say we have a great day where, like, we get ice cream and we go to the park and we go see Christmas trees and we have a great day. And then we pass a toy on our way to the car, and she wants that toy and we. We say, no, she is gonna cry and melt down about wanting that toy. And if I go straight to. But. Which I do often. But you had ice cream and you had. We went to the park and you had like the best day. Can't you just think about that? That doesn't feel right to her because that's bypassing the emotion that she needs to let out about grieving. Sort of this greater truth in life, which is you sometimes don't get what you want and that causes suffering. So if I go straight to that, it doesn't feel right. But if I. So I'll let her. When I can remember this, we let her cry. Yeah, you really want that toy. And mama said no. Oh, you're so sad. And let that go for as long as it needs to. And then there's just a moment. And you've, I'm certain, have noticed this too, where she is done crying. But then she'll kind of go like, like, I still sad about that toy.

[A]

And it's like reheats it.

[B]

Yeah. And you're like, okay, now you've crossed over into ruminating and creating this. Like you are now perpetuating that. So I'm going to help you out of it. What things did we get today? What can we be happy? So this is just a long winded way of. Of saying, like, there, there is sort of this, this attunement to knowing when to surrender and when to have choice. And then there is. The surrender comes back around. Because like, so now I'm gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna go to a dance class, I'm gonna meditate. I'm gonna go for a walk outside. I'm gonna do all these things that will make me feel better. And I have to surrender the outcome. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. But I'm back to surrendering that. You know what I mean? I don't know how I got on that tangent, but I loved it.

[A]

I'm like, Whenever you do that, I'm like, oh, good. Oh, good. I just. I don't have anything to add. Well, I think it's beautiful. Although I. I guess I had one thing to add, which is that ruminating 28. I know.

[B]

No, I'm saying that's our anniversary.

[A]

I. I know the course. That was me not knowing. Take care. A course in miracles would say that we create these things to ruminate on to keep us from the truth. That there is only one problem and only one choice, which is you chose the wrong teacher. Your decision maker went the wrong way. So I notice that I tend to keep a problem on a little altar or a seat in my consciousness. And when I solve one and it goes away, I pretty Quickly find another one to just sit there so I can always go back and go like, there's a problem made, a fix. And that's another big course in miracles. Thing is, like, you're really scared of letting go of your guilt and your fear because you think you'll vanish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very. I've heard Rupert say that too. It's like the moth is attracted to the flame. And what's really difficult is the last step is the moth has to go into the flame and let itself be burnt up. And you're like, ay, yikes.

[B]

That's so interesting because I have, like, there's always a constant problem. And because we actually do at this stage in our life, are, like, blessed to have the best life ever. It. Because there's very rarely, like, an. A real external problem. For me, the constant problem is I don't feel how I want to feel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is that belief that I just carry with me all the time is the thing that's keeping me from feeling how I want to feel.

[A]

Yeah. It's Byron. Katie calls out the thought that kicks you out of heaven.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, I could use a glass of water right now.

[B]

And I was like, ah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But tricky. You also sometimes need water. Okay. I am. We're out of time. Oh, you're gonna do a poem?

[B]

Should I?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do we have time?

[A]

It's what, 45 seconds? Go ahead.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm just.

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

Go for it. I'm sorry, I'm looking. I'm clearly looking.

[A]

I'm sorry. I'm clearly looking. Well, I'm getting the music ready.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Oh, it's already queued up from last time.

[B]

Okay, let's see what this one says.

[A]

Hilarious.

[B]

That's so funny. Okay, I'll tell you off mic. This is called can you imagine by, of course, none other than Mary Oliver, for example, what the trees do not only in lightning storms or the watery dark of the summer night, or under the white nets of winter, but now. And now. And now, whenever we're not looking, surely you can't imagine they just stand there looking the way they look when we're looking. Surely you can't imagine that they don't dance from the root up, wishing to travel a little, not cramped so much as wanting a better view or more sun or just as avidly more shade. Surely you can't imagine they just stand there loving every minute of it. The birds or the emptiness, the dark rings of the years slowly and without a sound thickening and nothing different. Unless the wind, and then only in its own mood, comes to visit. Surely you can't imagine patience and happiness like that.

[A]

Wow. Good one, Mary.

[B]

She's so good at writing.

[A]

Hilarious. Thank you, Val, as always. I feel so much better after our little coffee date.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Would you?

[B]

All right, babies, keep it crispy.