We Made It Weird #151

Summary

Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode: We Made It Weird #151
Date: September 15, 2023
Hosts: Pete Holmes & Valerie Chaney

---

Overview

This episode features Pete Holmes and his wife/co-host Valerie Chaney in their signature freewheeling, deeply personal, and often comedic conversational style. The pair discuss everything from parenting quirks and the psychology of storytelling, to masculinity in media, challenges with family dynamics, and the process of healing old wounds. As always, the episode is full of honest reflections, riffs on daily life, and discussions about feelings, sprinkled with family anecdotes and inside jokes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parenting & Storytelling with Children

• Discussion of Imaginary Tales: Pete and Val talk about telling Leela, their daughter, imaginative stories (e.g. a red polar bear) and how Leela is not always pleased to learn that these are not "true."
  • Pete: "She doesn't want to be tricked." (01:09)
  • Val: "Sometimes, baby, I tell you stories with make believe and magic that aren't in this world." (00:49)
• Material vs. Magic: Leela's desire for tangible things from stories highlights children's blending of material wants and imaginative play.

2. The "Tape & Pen" Riff

• Extended Bit About Tape and Pens: Pete and Valerie riff on different types of tape (deli tape vs. duct tape) and pens (Pete’s preference for bold, "masculine" pens vs. Valerie's issues with wet ink and smudging).
  • Pete: "Duct tape. That's the Sharpie of tapes." (07:45)
  • Val: "You like a wet pen. I hate a wet pen." (08:13)
• Handwriting Anxieties: Valerie shares her insecurities about her handwriting, especially when signing cards, leading to a heartfelt exchange about family handwriting and its emotional resonance.
  • Pete: "You could stop a war with your mom's handwriting." (12:34)
  • Val: "I could probably stop a panic attack in its tracks thinking of my mom's handwriting." (12:44)

3. Masculinity and Media Consumption

• Discussion about Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, and Masculine Energy in Media:
  • Pete admits to occasionally watching clips from the Joe Rogan podcast or Jordan Peterson for inspiration or curiosity.
  • Valerie observes the hyper-masculine, competitive dynamic on such shows and advocates for balance, suggesting listeners pair Rogan with more nurturing, contemplative figures like Richard Rohr.
    • Val: "It's all masculine energy… of course that would appeal to people who have masculine energy, who that resonates with." (27:53)
    • Pete: "There's an underlying thought system to all of that, which is if we're wearing the right suit, Jordan Peterson, have the right body, eat the right thing... growth, growth, growth." (29:00)
• Concerns About One-Sided Thought Patterns:
  • Valerie warns against internalizing too much of the "just go do it" advice without questioning meaning or broader purpose.
    • Val: "...for every Joe Rogan and Brian Callan, make sure you have like a Richard Rohr and a James Finley. Just like some feminine flow." (28:30)
  • Pete reflects on feeling more "blunt" when immersed in these masculine-leaning media.
    • Pete: "It makes me a little bit more rigid, it makes me a little bit more of a warrior and less of a…warrior is too flattering. It makes me too blunt." (26:59)

4. Individual Differences, “Wheeling and Dealing,” and Compassion

• Innate Psychological Differences:
  • Pete and Val talk at length about how people are born with different capacities for assertiveness and resilience ("wheeling and dealing"), and why it’s unhelpful to expect everyone to respond to adversity in the same way.
    • Pete: "What I resent from the wheeling and dealing group…is that the wheel and dealing folks often go around saying to the non wheel and dealing folks, why don't you dumb fucks just wheel and deal?" (25:05)
• Relating to Family and Past Generations:
  • Discussion on the inherited nature of survival strategies and trauma responses, and why some parents find it hard to change.
    • Pete: "I'm a product of my environment…it’s from The Departed, but, like, I want my environment to be a product of me." (41:50)
    • Val: "People are only as conscious as they can be…growing up and being, having a mature brain is being able to hold two sometimes contradicting truths at the same time." (43:01)

5. Forgiveness, Family, and Healing

• Forgiveness with Healthy Boundaries:
  • Valerie advocates for forgiveness only when it genuinely relieves suffering, not as a form of bypassing or self-repression.
    • Val: "I'm interested in that [forgiveness], only if it alleviates your suffering, if it's to be good, if it's to let them off the hook…then that's not helpful." (43:33)
• Dealing with Difficult Relatives/Parents and Narcissism:
  • Pete shares about working through trauma with a narcissistic family member, referencing reading Disarming the Narcissist for understanding and personal peace.
    • Pete: "Reading about this stuff…making a shape around trauma is so important…having somebody say, hey, there's a name for this thing…all of a sudden the walls start to build and like a container starts to form." (58:01-59:18)

6. Family Anecdotes & Inside Jokes

• "Apparently, It Can Cause a Fire" Story:
  • Pete recounts a classic-dad moment when he insists Valerie tell their house sitter, via voice text, to unplug the e-bike because "apparently it can cause a fire," which instantly becomes a running family joke.
    • Pete (leaning into voice note): "Apparently, it can cause a fire." (61:17)
    • The phrase is now repeated by daughter Leela for laughs — a new family inside joke. (63:26)

7. Emotional Honesty in Real Time

• Navigating Big Feelings Amid Healing:
  • The episode closes with reflections on the ongoing process of dealing with big feelings, family wounds, and the effort required to face them instead of numbing out.
    • Pete: "Feelings are no joke. When you're not feeling a feeling, you're like, feelings, who cares? …When you're feeling feelings, you're like, no, there's nothing but feelings." (64:49)
    • Val: "You're on such a big healing journey, and everybody listening, I'm sure, is benefiting from." (65:41)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Storytelling and Truth

  • Pete: "She doesn't want to be tricked." (01:09)
  • Val: "Sometimes baby, I tell you stories with make believe and magic that aren't in this world." (00:49)

• On Social Competence ("Wheeling and Dealing")

  • Pete: "What I resent from the wheeling and dealing group…is that the wheel and dealing folks often go around saying to the non wheel and dealing folks, why don't you dumb fucks just wheel and deal?" (25:05)

• On Masculine/Feminine Energies in Media

  • Val: "…for every Joe Rogan and Brian Callan, make sure you have like a Richard Rohr and a James Finley. Just like some feminine flow." (28:30)
  • Pete: "It makes me too blunt. Yeah, blunt is better, because blunt is not always great." (26:59)

• On Forgiveness and Healing

  • Val: “Forgiveness is on the other side of the battlefield of all the rage and the sadness and the grief and the trauma releasing…” (45:25)

• On Family Trauma and Understanding

  • Pete: “I'm a product of my environment…it’s from The Departed, but, like, I want my environment to be a product of me.” (41:50)
  • Val: “People are only as conscious as they can be…growing up and being, having a mature brain is being able to hold two sometimes contradicting truths at the same time.” (43:01)

• On Family In-Jokes

  • Pete: "Apparently it can cause a fire." (61:17, 63:39)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:36-01:21 — The nature of storytelling to children and the line between imagination and reality
• 06:00-10:01 — Tape & pen conversations; humor on office supplies and personality
• 16:00-23:00 — "Drinking" conversation turns into a reflection on consuming media and its subtle psychological effects
• 24:48-27:21 — "Wheeling and dealing" in life and acknowledging different innate traits in people
• 29:00-32:00 — Dissecting the ethos of masculine self-improvement media
• 33:32-35:21 — Commentary on the lack of subtlety/gentleness in certain media spaces, using Joe Rogan and body-shaming as examples
• 39:50-44:25 — Discussing forgiveness, holding contradictory truths, and healthy emotional processing
• 46:18-50:05 — Pete's improved relationship with his brother; seeking and processing family-of-origin issues
• 58:01-59:39 — The importance of labeling/defining trauma to create psychological “edges”
• 61:03-63:39 — The "apparently it can cause a fire" anecdote and its transformation into family lore
• 64:26-66:16 — Reflections on the discomfort and inevitability of big feelings and healing journeys

---

Tone & Style

The tone is candid, vulnerable, silly, and compassionate. Pete and Valerie alternate between humorous, off-the-cuff riffs and serious, introspective analysis of their inner worlds and relationships. The humor often leans goofy and self-deprecating, with moments of real wisdom and emotional honesty.

---

For New Listeners

This episode is a perfect blend of the personal and the philosophical, the trivial and the profound. Pete and Valerie’s chemistry and openness make even the heaviest psychological topics feel accessible, and the family stories and inside jokes provide an endearing throughline. Expect to laugh, to see yourself in their struggles and triumphs, and perhaps to finish the episode feeling a little more understood.

---

Keep it crispy! (66:16)

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it with. You made it weird. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You made it with. Yes, you made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[A]

What's happening, weirdos?

[B]

What's happening?

[A]

What is happening? We'll pause so you can answer like Dora the Explorer.

[B]

Oh, my God. Do you see the monkey? Yeah, he's in the tree.

[A]

We were watching that and Leela looked at me like, to see if I responded, like, she asked a question, by the way.

[B]

I. Sorry.

[A]

No, go for it.

[B]

I. I got you. I heard you.

[A]

You got me.

[B]

I'm with you. But I told her a story about a red polar bear once and she. Last night I'm taking her up to bed and she goes, is the story about the red polar bear not true? She hates. And I go, sometimes, baby, I tell you stories with make believe and magic that aren't in this world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like in a make believe world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she fucking hates it. She doesn't want it at all because.

[A]

She doesn't want to be tricked.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting I should say that. It's like, I'm not tricking you. I'm. I'm trying to tell you a story. And I'm like, there are things that are true. It's hard to explain.

[A]

I know. I said. Because I told her a not true story last night, and she was like, is this true? And I was like, it's true in my imagination. But then I was like, And I collected a coin and I collected a thing. And she was like, do you still have them? And I was like, you know what?

[B]

It's actually funny that you say that. It's because Leila wants stuff and she wants the pink polar bear.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She wants it at our house. It's not so much the lie. Like, I tell her a story about. I've told this. The seashell necklace that you wear that helps you breathe and talk underwater. And she wants.

[A]

Right. She's in a very.

[B]

Get it.

[A]

Yes. Obtain. She's in an Obtainium.

[B]

Unobtainium. She's in an Obtainium.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, guys, I am. Everybody, I am in North Carolina. If you hear this the day it comes out, please come out.

[A]

Please, please come to my show.

[B]

Go to PeteHomes.com. you know, St. Louis was great. The shows didn't sell out, which is fine. It's okay. But there's so much. I'm over it. I'm still upset about it. No, but like, they're so much more fun when they do. And it means so much speaking of which, fuck that, it didn't sell out. People drove in from Oklahoma and stuff like. So thank you to everybody that came out. I'm gonna check myself. I just wrecked myself so I'm gonna check myself. And I met a guy named Phoenix and his girlfriend Molly. And they told me about an artist who has an album called Nothing's Real. So nothing's Wrong, which has been great. I've been listening to it, but also just having that in my back pocket.

[A]

Phoenix and Molly sound like very cool.

[B]

That's what I said. Yeah, it's like a great couple name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nothing is real, so nothing's wrong. It's like really nice for me. Any who's a woozle, go to PeteHomes.com There'll be more tour dates forthcoming. Indiana, Chicago are going to be added soon. And if you like the show, try a pizza pig. You know the deal. This supports the show. It means a lot, Katie. Only one thing to plug up top and it's our friends at Living Libations. Living Libations is a hair, skin, eyes, teeth, a beauty care company that has changed the way I look at beauty care. Beauty care, that's what I'm going to call the market. But you know, things you put on your body end up in your body. And so many things we put on our body are toxic. They're filled with chemicals. They're made by corporations that don't care about you whatsoever. And I fell for, I fell for the marketing. I was like, it's got a French name or it's expensive, so it must be good for my skin. Nonsense. You should recognize the ingredients on your skin care in the same way you should recognize the ingredients of your food because what you're putting on your body gets in your body. Living Libations is here to help. Not only is it natural with things you can pronounce and understand, but it's badass. It works. It's the best exfoliant I've ever used. It's the best moisturizer I've ever. They have gum care, dental care, they have baby care. I always mention that we use their love, the sun sunblock because it's the only actually clean, zinc based sunblock that I've found and it works. You can buy a little bottle, it'll last you a really, really long time. So Living Libations is a great way to support the show. We only endorse things that I actually use and actually love. Living Libations is one of those. So if you want to show some love to this show. If you enjoy the show, go to livinglibations.com weird. You'll get 15% off everything you see there. You can just get a tongue scraper. Scrape your tongue. That's something I didn't figure out until I was in my 30s. Scrape your tongue. Don't just brush your teeth, scrape your tongue. Get some sunblock, get some skin care, get some eye care, whatever it is that you'd like to replace and slowly up your medicine cabinet game. Just get something little or do what I did and do a complete overhaul and it makes a difference. It supports the show. I personally appreciate it. And do your body a favor. Go to living libations.com weird 15% off everything on site. You get a premium, natural and wonderful product to replace the random chemical neon blue nightmare that they sell at 7:11. Living life. Living libations.com weird. All right, everybody. Hope to see you on the road or maybe at Largo. Largo-la.com if you're going to be in Los Angeles. Those shows are always great. Kumail did the last, last one. They're once a month. Largo-la.com PeteHolmes.com for everything else.

[A]

Valerie, get into it.

[B]

You know what's funny is Leela never. Leela never really bites for like, my bits. She doesn't bite for my bits.

[A]

She doesn't bite. Take bites of your bits.

[B]

She doesn't take bites in the bits. I'm always wrapping them in, you know, deli paper and a little bit of that easy to remove tape. You know what I mean?

[A]

No.

[B]

You know that kind of light brown deli tape?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Love a light brown, easy to remove deli.

[A]

Yeah. Why are we using that tape? For most things. For most things, I would say there's.

[B]

A lot of tape mistakes and that was the easiest one to walk it back.

[A]

I would say I deal with the difficulty of taking tape off way more than I deal with tape not sticking when I need it to.

[B]

You deal with ideal with. I didn't know what you were saying. I thought you were saying ideal, like ideally.

[A]

Oh, ideal.

[B]

Ideal with. Ideal with. I was like, are you. I know it's kind of hacked to say, are you having a stroke? But I was like, is this a stroke?

[A]

You know what?

[B]

Ideal. You know what's ideal with what?

[A]

Okay. With all my health scares. Don't joke about that.

[B]

Yeah, My butt just stopped hurting.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

From all that ap ass play. No, guys, it's fine if that's what you're doing. It's Just.

[A]

Let's not talk about it. First thing in the morning, it is.

[B]

No, I'm just offering. I'm regretting my ass. Play rep. Yeah.

[A]

Don't say, yeah, well, I regret it as well.

[B]

Well, okay, then. Here we are in the wake of regret. You know what I mean? I feel it. It's gonna tingle. It's gonna sizzle for a few more moments. Why didn't I stay on the tape riffs? Why wasn't that juicy?

[A]

Juicy? Tape riffs.

[B]

Duct tape. That's the Sharpie of tapes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's the permanent marker of tapes.

[A]

Somehow this feels like deli.

[B]

Tape is the pencil of tapes. It's easy to remove.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I won you over. You were like, I don't know about this riff. Scotch tape is regular ballpoint pen, the kind you can kind of smear. You know what I mean? If your finger's wet, you can smear that.

[A]

You love those types of pins. You love a goopy. A goopy pin.

[B]

I like a wet pen.

[A]

You like a wet pen. I hate a wet pin.

[B]

Here it is. Oh, no, it's not Onyx. I called it Onyx. I was way off. Onyx is probably an Egyptian rapper. Uniball. Uni. Ball vision. Fine.

[A]

It should be called Onyx because it's so. So I was looking for a pin this morning to sign a field trip.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I opened the drawer. There's thousands of those pins. And I was like, I can't find a pin because I don't even consider them as an option. Because if you barely accidentally bump it, it's gonna smear the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like Thomas Jefferson. I have to, like. You know, they have that. They, like, shake. Kind of like. There's, like, a paper salt. You know what I mean?

[A]

No.

[B]

There's certain, like, inks that, you know, in the olden days, they'd write with their feather, and then at the end, they'd go. They'd shake something like a mineral.

[A]

I've seen that.

[B]

And then they'd blow on it.

[A]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

That's what I like.

[A]

You do like that.

[B]

No, I don't. I just keep my fucking mitts out of that ink.

[A]

We were talking about this, actually, at my writing retreat. We were at, like, talking about our favorite pens. And I was saying that you use the most masculine pen possible, where it's.

[B]

Like, sharp as fuck.

[A]

It's super sharp. It's bold. It's as bold as it can get.

[B]

That's what I like about it.

[A]

And it's just, like, kind of imposing. It doesn't give a. If you want to touch your hand to the paper, it'll smear all over you and the paper.

[B]

I'm gonna write with it right now. I'm gonna write the word test, and I'm gonna count to 1, 2. And now I'm gonna touch it, and it didn't get on me.

[A]

Okay, now write test, and just touch it immediately.

[B]

Okay. Test and I touch it immediately. It smears. Yeah, but I mean, you don't touch every word. Are you touching it? Because, lady, it ain't braille.

[A]

I know. I'm just kidding.

[B]

What's your favorite Braille penny? Just a hole puncher. There's some riff here. It seems insensitive. Yeah, it's not, though. This is actually my favorite. This is my favorite area in 2023. You find these areas, like, can you, like, can we riff on what a braille pen is? And you're like, easy.

[A]

Yeah, easy. I was gonna say something that might be insensitive. Well, it certainly is privileged.

[B]

Well, I'm listening to me. And I haven't been listening this whole time, but now I'm perking up.

[A]

This is what it takes to get you to listen to me.

[B]

Oh, my God. We have to talk about. It sounds like we're talking about drinking. Like, day drinking.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And we have to talk about apparently, the.

[B]

Yeah, apparently I'll write it with my wonderful pen. Apparently. And drinking. Nobody drank.

[A]

It's just to finish that. I was gonna say I don't use a pencil, but we should all be using pencils. It's the only one that has an eraser where you can make mistakes and it not be, like, a big deal.

[B]

Hard. Disagree.

[A]

This is really showing.

[B]

I have no need for pencil.

[A]

You don't make a mistake when you're writing, like, on a card. Every single card I write.

[B]

No, I know. It's very endearing. A card from Val is filled with, like, a D. That's correcting, like, what was clearly an F. Like, it's like a triple line. Like, you line over the F so many times, and then you turn it into a D as if anyone. And I always tell you, just cross it out and write it, like, own the mistake. Oh, you're trying to.

[A]

I'm ugly. Cause I'm trying to make it beautiful when you open it.

[B]

Look, I love you with my whole heart.

[A]

No.

[B]

And a card from you is a little goofy. It's a little bit of a meal on wheel. You know what I'm Saying I feel so. I've been in a lot of cars, going to weddings, and you're filling it out and it looks like a ransom note. It does.

[A]

It really does. It's so bad. Why can't I write? I get.

[B]

Don't break it. You're breaking it. You do get nervous. I get nervous because it's on the record.

[A]

It's on the record and you're like, we don't have another card. And yes, I am always doing it in the car on the way to the event, so I gotta work on that. Yeah, I don't feel very good about my handwriting. Never have.

[B]

And I love your little handwriting. I always look at it. I go, leela's gonna know this as her mom's handwriting. It's really wild. You're a mom's handwriting.

[A]

I know. I know. My mom's handwriting's.

[B]

So you could show the fiercest dictator his mom's handwriting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he would take pause.

[A]

Cuz my mom hates her handwriting.

[B]

Stop a war with your mom's handwriting.

[A]

You could. Like, truly. I could.

[B]

I forget to eat an apple today.

[A]

I could probably stop a panic attack in its tracks thinking of my mom's handwriting.

[B]

I could stop a panic attack in my tracks. I'm going to. I'm going to say that's true with my mom's drawing of a cat. She draws a. She draws a cat in a very specific way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my whole life, I love that.

[A]

Well, my mom also messes up cards.

[B]

No, your mom's whole vibe is a woman who messed up a birthday card in ink.

[A]

I know. Which is why it's so embarrassing that I'm the same way.

[B]

No, I love. I like your mom. I like your mom.

[A]

I like my mom, too.

[B]

Like, if you end up being like your mom and I just, you know, personality, kind of like a little flighty or whatever. A little like all over the. Yeah, it's great. Your mom's like a. Like a spilled glass of orange juice.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's not a lot. Well, I'm saying like a hotel serving in the 80s. The little glass of orange juice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Meaning you can get it with those paper naps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Little peeping apps is gonna. It's not a big deal. Nobody's didn't get on the pancakes.

[A]

Okay, I'm losing how. This is my mom.

[B]

But your mom is a small spill.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know how to say this.

[B]

I don't. I can't say this more clearly. She's a small spill. Some people are A hole in the side of a. Like a. Like a truck that refills gas stations. She's just a little. Aw, man. Yeah, and you get the paper naps.

[A]

Okay, but here's the offensive thing I was gonna say.

[B]

Can't wait.

[A]

I was gonna say, like, braille is so 90s.

[B]

Braille is 90s.

[A]

Why? But it must just be because that's when I learned about Braille and because that's when I was, like, going to public libraries.

[B]

Look, I'm gonna write this riff in ink, okay? Like, there's no. There's no lollygagging. I don't think you can say pussyfooting anymore. There's no lollygagging. That doesn't even work. There's no not. Stop bumping me with the chair. It's my shins. I'm going to write this riff in ink. Braille is 90s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm just. Without any facts, without any reason to believe this. I just feel like the blind community of today are using technology. They're not. They're like, read me this text. Read me this letter. Nobody's doing the bumpy bumps. Maybe they are. Maybe they're doing the bumps. You should call them the bumpy bumps. It's like, can we call English the scrappy squiggles?

[A]

Yes, but we're in the power position.

[B]

All right, all right. But I feel.

[A]

No, I know.

[B]

Let me say it this way. I'm sitting with my blind friend. His name is Henry. I feel okay saying bumpy bumps. Because he's like, thank you. That's what it is. I'm over here now. See, Riffing past this point. I'm in. I'm in the danger zone.

[A]

I'm in the.

[B]

Don't say I'm in the dark, Mallory.

[A]

I went in.

[B]

You almost.

[A]

I would never. I would.

[B]

Almost did.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

This is gonna be like a car ride after this. We're gonna be like, it's that old blind stuff.

[B]

Was.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I feel okay about it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm saying right now, you're the writing in it. Am I?

[A]

No.

[B]

I do come to you a lot. Going like. Okay, yeah, listen, we could talk. Let's get the drinking one out of the way because it's less fun. And then we'll do the. Apparently one. Yeah, but the drinking one was.

[A]

We had a very serious conversation last year, yesterday.

[B]

And if you dropped into the conversation at this point, you would be like, there must be talking about, like, day drinking or something, because you were like, just watch it. You Know, just watch it. It's something to be aware of. You know, maybe don't do it every time you think of it. Yeah, maybe every other time.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, balance it out.

[B]

Balance it out.

[A]

You don't want to just be aware. And I was like, that.

[B]

This can change.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's what you were saying.

[A]

That's what I did.

[B]

This can change. You can change. Repeated exposure like this can change you. It has a psychological effect.

[A]

I even said I saw it happen to my ex.

[B]

I saw it happen to my ex. I just don't want to see you go down the same rabbit hole. Anyone at the Denny's next to us would be like, oh, that guy's day drinking. Or you know what it actually sounds like is weed. I remember my therapist was like, look, if you smoke weed every single day, I'm not saying it's a negative effect on your brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, go with God. Get to Stoney Jo. Listening to the podcast. Thank you, man. Stoney Jones new character. New character. Do we do a T shirt? Stoney Jones.

[A]

There was a time where you were making T shirts for everything.

[B]

That will nil.

[A]

That will nil.

[B]

Had a lot more free time. Yeah, I would still be doing it.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's a risk free enterprise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can do it. You can make the Stoney Jones T shirt. And in fact, I'm going to say it. If you come to a show in a Stoney Jones T shirt, you get a hug.

[A]

Also, I have the limited edition CP C3 Pete Holmes C3 Pete Holmes. Which got shut down almost immediately before Lucas.

[B]

Lucas. I feel like Lucasfilm was all over that algorithm. And Prince. Yeah, because we had a Prince shirt.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we had a Star wars shirt. And both of those got shut down immediately.

[A]

But did piano Keeves.

[B]

Piano keys.

[A]

Keys.

[B]

No, because Keanu Reeves isn't a written an entity. Right. I mean, he is an entity quite.

[A]

Literally, but he's not an enterprise.

[B]

There's not a land. There's not a Keanu land at Disneyland.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, there should be. Yeah, there's Bill and Ted's. Like the Excellent. It's like the excellent Egg Venture. It's like the breakfast restaurant.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Then there's the Matrix for the grown ups.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then there's.

[A]

It's like the actual. You like, walk into.

[B]

Something's got to Give.

[A]

No, what is it?

[B]

There's something ought to give. That's just a lot. Something's got to give is just a line. You wait in to use the bathroom room but there's guys dressed like Keanu.

[A]

Doc, no. Something's Got to Give is like a boutique with, like, that you would see in Lagunda.

[B]

My boutique is actually my technique for picking up booze. Okay, so I don't know what you mean when you say boutique. Are you talking about my ability to pick up booze? Because that's my boutique. Joe. Yo, Joe. Joe, Joe. I said Joe instead of Yo, Joe. Check out my boutique. And then I go and hit on a group of booze.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And I'm immediately shut down. And they're like, you got to work on that boutique.

[A]

Yeah. So this is like a conversation that we were having where it sounded like we were talking about your boutique.

[B]

Well, right, so, like, things that you. That affect your brain, that you do every single day. You could say the same about caffeine. Okay. Anyway, but it sounds like we're talking about weed. We were talking about me occasionally watching clips of, like, the Joe Rogan experience or usually, like, guests that I wouldn't be exposed to. Like, Jordan Peterson clicking on a Jordan Peterson link. Just out of curiosity.

[A]

Yeah, basically, I'm not going that deep. Just like the libertarian bros.

[B]

I don't even know what a libertarian is, but, yeah, that.

[A]

But that's what I saw my ex husband come become before my very eyes by listening to talk radio.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Talk radio is like Clockwork Orange. You know what I mean? When they hold your eyes open and like, before you know it, you think violence is okay or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, and I'm not saying libertarianism. I'm sure there are a lot of libertarians. See, I don't know what it is. It sounds cool. It sounds like an Arnold Palmer of being liberal and a Unitarian. So you think everyone's going to heaven.

[A]

Couldn't be the opposite of the combo.

[B]

Of a liberal and you're not liberal. Libertarian isn't liberal.

[A]

It's like. It's like. Think about how my dad uses the word liberty. It's that. It's like. It's like liberty overall instead of justice.

[B]

This is like a.

[A]

That's my interpretation. Obviously, I'm biased.

[B]

Liberty.

[A]

But it.

[B]

Yeah, this is one of those memes. Like, remember the moment you found liberty? I thought it meant kind of liberal.

[A]

Well, what it means is.

[B]

I'm not embarrassed. No, no. I don't think that people left.

[A]

There are probably people who are like, yeah, that could be true.

[B]

That could be true.

[A]

Because it is. It's like, you know, liberals are basically. I'm out of my depth. A Little bit. But liberals are kind of like, we want government involvement in.

[B]

Yeah. You know, And Republicans are like, stay out.

[A]

And libertarians are like, but. But Republicans are like, stay out. Unless it's like abortion. Basically, both. It's kind of like liberals are one.

[B]

Okay. I think I have known this before. And libertarians are like, stay out. For real.

[A]

Like, truly stay out of everything. So they actually overlap with Republicans and liberals.

[B]

Are they the bootstrap people? Are they like.

[A]

Like, pull yourself up from the bootstrap.

[B]

Are they like, just go make money. Like, just go make money. I don't understand. Is it that.

[A]

No, I don't think that's them.

[B]

They're like just two dinguses, you and me.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Explaining a political party.

[A]

My understanding of them is very much like, just very in it. It is bootstrap in that it's like, very individual. It's like they're like off the grid. This is the extreme. I want to live my own life. I have a right to live my own life without anybody telling me how to personally live my own life.

[B]

And I think so. I had a conversation. It was a great conversation, but it was somebody I don't know if I necessarily agreed with. How could I know? But I got the sense that I was like, I bet we have different politics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one of the things that made this person seem different to me was they were all about like, life isn't fair. Like, that was like a cornerstone of their world system.

[A]

World system.

[B]

Thought. Worldview.

[A]

Yeah, Thought system.

[B]

And being like, life isn't fair. Shut up. Like, fucking find a way. And I'm over here going, I get it. I am a life. I'm not saying life isn't fair. I'm just saying, like, I saw unfairness and I forged away. I had tons of privilege, but the main privilege that I had, I would say, is my psychological makeup, my mental makeup. You could say my fortitude. This is so boring. It's almost over. I'm just saying the way that I sympathize with people that. That have more of a freeze response to trauma. I had more of a fight flight both. I was like, I'm getting the out of here and I'm punching everyone on my way out. Like, you know what I mean? I thought that would get a bigger laugh. But the people that have a freeze, I like. It's. What I'm saying is we're not all dealt the same skills. It's like building a character in a video game. You just don't have the same level of Whatever charisma, energy, drive, anxiety, depression, you know, overwhelm all these things. So we have these different levels. And one of the things I resent about my people, me, the guy, the people that are like, I know how to talk that apple out of that guy who loves apple's hands. You know what I mean? Like, don't worry, everybody I know, like George Clooney and fucking old brother were you. Where art thou? Like the gift of gab. Go up. Be charming, be engaging, be likable, find a way. Don't take no for an answer or get a no. Really what it is, is like we were just talking, you and I were just talking about this. This morning is like picking your moments when to like stand up for yourself and when to let it slide. That is like one of the most difficult to explain traits that I am the most grateful for. Meaning there are times when I'm working with somebody and you just let it slide. You could say, hey, yeah, this, this and this. But you just have this sense of like, this is kind of how dinner is served.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, did they get the nachos with all the bits of meat?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But is there another course coming? Yes. And just wait. The art of doing nothing. Yeah, it's a very difficult skill. It's a difficult skill to talk about anyway. I have these.

[A]

The wheeling and dealing skill.

[B]

Wheeling and dealing, yeah, precisely. But what I resent from the wheeling and dealing group of which I'm a card carrying member is that the wheel and dealing folks often go around saying to the non wheel and dealing folks, why don't you dumb fucks just wheel and deal?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which to me is like someone saying, hey Pete, why don't you just ride a unicycle? Or why don't you run a marathon? Or why don't you reply to emails in a timely fashion? Like there's a lot of things that my overwhelm locks me up and the wheeling and dealings, especially after a cup of coffee or a cocktail or God help you, a cigar, which often is, I think the Jordan Peterson from. I'm not a Jordan Peterson expert. I'm just saying these are, these are the, like, well, get out there and fucking do it. You know, just get out there and build a skill. This is a terrible Jordan Peterson impression. Get out there and you know, you gotta do it. I can't. I can picture it and hear it in my mind.

[A]

Sounds like somebody, but not him.

[B]

I'm just saying that advice, which I, I respond to it when somebody is like, just go do it. I'm like, that's fucking right. I should just go do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's people in my family, I have close, close friends that just aren't. Shake their hands, look them in the eye and tell them your skills. You know what I mean? And improve and shine and shimmer. And I'm like, yeah, the world's fucking crazy. Have you been out there? There's not just fucking Aragorn, son of Arathorns, there's elves and there's dwarves and there's golems and there's hobbits and like, the fucking Aragorn's arrogant. There's arrogant son of Arrithant going around. And I'm saying this from their side. So when I watch some of those videos, one of the reasons I like them is cause I feel like they're talking to people like me that sometimes do just need a kick in the ass to go. Like, I'm not talking about watching anything that's like fiercely. I'm not hitting the hot button issues. I know Jordan Peterson's gotten in trouble. I'm just talking about general kind of like motivation. Just like you gotta get up every day and have some fucking meaning in your life. You know, like stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Light Peterson, sure. And I can enjoy that. But I do notice that it makes me a little bit more rigid. It makes me a little bit more of a warrior and less of a. And warrior is too flattering. It makes me too blunt. Yeah, blunt is better because blunt is not always great. Yeah, warriors are cool. That I just mean blunt and a little heavy.

[A]

Well, the thing that you were watching that we like, kind. That started this.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

This is why I'm saying you can't just.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Watch. It was like. It was Joe Rogan and two guys I didn't know and Brian Callan talking about like jfk. And it was very just like, dude, dude, no. This guy saw the bullet. This like. And they're like talking over each other.

[B]

This one inside my body.

[A]

And like, Brian Kellen was like, but what about the blah, blah, blah. And they're like, did you seriously say that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So to me, it's just all masculine energy. It's. Oh yeah, it's all masculine energy. Of course I get. I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing. I'm saying, of course that would appeal to people who have masculine energy, who. That resonates with.

[B]

But what's funny is I do have a limit. You can put too much Iced tea in my Arnold Palmer. That's like. This is. Where's the. Where's the sweet lemon flavor? Like. And when I watched that, I. I was not into it.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

At all. And I was a little embarrassed that I was watching it when you walked in. No, because it was not. Not in a bad way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the. What do you got? What do you. What do you got? What do you got?

[A]

I just was. So that's why when we were having this conversation, I was like, make sure you're, like, hearing your even. I mean, it can, of course, be men, but it's, like, for every Joe Rogan and. But Brian Callan, like, make sure you have, like, a Richard Rohr and a James Finley.

[B]

No, it's so true.

[A]

Just, like, some, like, feminine flow and.

[B]

Just call it lemonade. Just a lemonade.

[A]

Just a sweet little lemonade.

[B]

No, it's very true. There's a. There's an underlying thought system to all of that, which is if we're wearing the right suit, Jordan Peterson, have the right body, eat the right thing. Like, you know, I love Dr. Huberman. Get sunlight in my eyes. Do breath work, all this stuff. There's not a lot of, like. And then what? Like, I've really been tripping out lately, as I almost always am on. It's all just now. And I know that's just something we say, but it's all just now. Meaning it is sort of cosmically speaking, instantaneous. Meaning, at the end of the day, it's not about rocking the day or figuring out the JFK assassination or even, like, doing the carnivore diet and fucking lifting more everyday. Growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. I enjoy that stuff, but it's devoid of, like, deeper meaning. There's no why to it. It's like, why winning? That's why. Shut the fuck up. That's why. Cause it's awesome to eat awesome food and to lift awesome things and to be faster than I was yesterday. And there is a little Richard Rohr, hobbit, you know, hermit, in my mind with a cane, just kind of watching, going like, it's fine. It's fine. But also going like, but why? Why?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can we ask ourselves what it is? Huh? You know, just like. And. And that. That is completely devoid. And the way that I see that is often. And I sympathize. But when people do the Joe Rogan experience, which, again, we're saying I enjoy from. From time to time, when people go on, I feel bad sometimes because it's so powerful. It's so charged and heightened. Oh, it's the biggest fucking show. Everyone's listening. It could just be that. Meaning. I'm not saying it's an environment that Joe makes or anything. See, I have to be, like, polite. But this isn't me being disrespectful. I'm just saying it's such a fucking. This is gonna be a clip. You know what I mean? It's a rare person that can go on that show and hold their own. But even that. What I'm saying, it feels athletic. Like, it's. It's not.

[A]

It's competitive. Even though it's like, he's hosting you, you're a guest.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like they found a masculine way to even do that.

[B]

That's what I'm saying, where you're like.

[A]

Now, like, sing for your supper, and that is fine.

[B]

And that's a lot of things. That stern. That's fucking stern.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

We've had this.

[A]

True. Yeah.

[B]

I just. I'm just pointing out a difference. On my. On our pod, it's like, you're the guest. I tell them, like, you can edit out anything you want. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's. No, it's not a gotcha show. It's fun. And maybe they do that too. I don't know. I liked when I did Joe Rogan. I had a good experience. But, like, I just watch other people who maybe aren't the wheeling and dealing types go like, Jesus, you know, like, they're just. Like, everyone's smoking cigars. Like, I just want to talk about my book about neuroplasticity or whatever it might be.

[A]

Yeah, no, it just is. And I'm not an expert because I don't listen to it or watch it, but the way that I feel is like, this is such a. Like you've thrown dogs in a pen and they're all out for themselves.

[B]

I. I know what you mean.

[A]

It's like a situation where I don't feel like my perspective would ever be considered with an open heart.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think a lot of people feel that way.

[B]

I think we talked about. Didn't we talk about this? That. And again. Look, this is the last time I'm going to say it. I just understand. I'm never going to attack. This is not an easy thing to do to create all that content. Good people. Fine. It's okay. No hardcore shots fired here. What you're saying, though, is there can be a lack of subtlety and gentleness. Which I think is fair to say. Right. So I remember, I don't. Remind me if we talked about this, but they were pulling up, it was Billy Burr, and they were talking shit, as they, as they sometimes do about. It's a little body shaming, like talking about heavier people. And so they're riffing on it and I don't know, the algorithm fed me this video and I'm watching it and they start talking about how Jennifer Lawrence was, like, complaining that she had to lose weight for a movie. And their. And by the way, I've been doing Stand up for over 20 years. I get it. I know what it's like being in the green room. You're going for the riff, you're going for the laugh, but it's not very subtle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they're riffing about it. It's like, you're a movie star. What the fuck you got? You want to look great because you're on the silver screen. That sort of thing. The article that they're pulling up, that I know they can read, it's in a large font, says she was asked to lose, like £20 in two weeks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that is the level of subtlety that's being steamed out, like homogenized out in the name of riffing and comedy. But that doesn't really excuse it. It's like I was watching and maybe they do. I just watched a clip. I'm just waiting for someone to go, yeah, but it says in two weeks. So she's. Some fucking skis is going like, you're too heavy. You have two weeks to lose 20. Or whatever it was. See, now I'm getting my facts wrong. But I do remember it was two weeks. I don't know how much weight it was. I'm like, that's. You know, I think Jennifer Lawrence, as any actress, actor in Hollywood, myself included, knows what it's like to feel under pressure and sometimes being told to get in shape for a thing that happens. I think the time and removing that element removed that level of subtlety. And now we're just going like, ah, you can't. You can't. You can't do some setups. I'm like, I don't think that's the story. The whole headline isn't being represented.

[A]

That's. That's absolutely true. On the. Like, they should at least, or could at least do that. That's the most basic level. But this is what I mean. There's never going to be, it seems anybody on there that would do that, let alone go and also, you know, women have been objectified and hypersexualized since the beginning of time. And so probably she's feeling like, can't I just do a good job here? Potentially the role had nothing to do with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A certain size and they're just making.

[B]

Her a sports car.

[A]

Yeah. And like, just because she's an object. So.

[B]

And it kind of. It kind of goes into that. The Fallon article that came out where it was like, a lot of it was built a lot of the, like, irregularity and some of the abuse that was happening on that set, which I just read about.

[A]

I haven't read this yet, was.

[B]

Was sort of built on the back of, you're lucky to have this job. And that doesn't stop because you're Jennifer Lawrence. It doesn't stop because you're Jennifer Aniston. It just keeps going and it never, you know, everybody's pretty savvy going, like, you know, that's a person. Like, we're not as tabloidy as we used to be. There's a more. Maybe it's Instagram, who knows? But, you know, more awareness, more insight into their personal lives. So you go, like, that's a person. They. They just had a baby. Like, why are we calling them whatever on the COVID of the Inquirer? But I think there is still. You know, obviously, clearly what we're saying is, like, there's still.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In. In insensitivities.

[A]

And there still is a degree of, like, once you become very famous, you belong to us. Us. And you look how we want you to look. And you marry who we want you to marry. And you, like, you're. You're. You owe the public details about your life. You know, like, covers where you look gorgeous. You know, it's like, it's so shitty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's gotta feel insane to be on that end.

[B]

And that is sort of like they're not a real person. They are like a sports car. They are like a prop. And, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Even. Even it's happening in the smallest degree in this conversation, I feel like, where, like, you have to maybe watch your words a little bit more about other people than I do, because I'm like, there's not going to be a headline. That's like, Valerie says she doesn't care for the Joe Rogan experience.

[B]

Right. Right. Yeah. No, that is.

[A]

I also know. I don't think that's bullshit. I. You're. You're representing yourself accurately, as I know.

[B]

I've. I've talked about this a bunch it's like once you're playing a game, once you're in a system and I am saying my feelings.

[A]

You are.

[B]

I am saying them diplomatically, though.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because I don't want to be yanked. Not that I honestly. This isn't false humility. I don't think that's happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's nobody. Jamie, can you pull that up? Pete said what? Oh, that we didn't have a subtle enough conversation. Who fucking cares?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is not. They're talking about, like, this, today's UFO sighting. You know what I mean? And having major political candidates on. Nobody cares about my mild opinion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that being said, I. Once you're in bed with certain agendas, like, you don't want bridges burned or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

Smart. I think that's really smart. I'm just saying, like, well, welcome to.

[B]

The wheeling and dealing. Welcome to the wheeling and dealing.

[A]

I really, by the way, appreciate that you recognize that as an. As a non wheeler and dealer. Although I. I have my own versions of it. But just like, I think. I think often people who are successful in any specific thing assume everyone else could do it. Yeah. Even I was saying that women, the. Some of the women that I know who are Enneagram Eights, which is the challenger, tend to have the perspective in like a me too situation of like, why didn't the girl just leave?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, they would have no problem doing that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But, like, it's just such a good reminder that everybody is different. So anytime you're like, why don't you just do this? And here's the real challenging one. Why don't my parents just go to therapy? Like that. I'm not sure that's challenging to me is like. Because I just asked myself, like, what do I do that with?

[B]

Oh, you impose it on your parents.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, well, it's easy for me to go to therapy. It's really difficult for them to go to therapy.

[B]

I'm glad that you mentioned that because that's been coming up a lot lately. It's another version of if I were them, I'd be them sort of thing. But I've been trying. So today's course in Miracles lesson was so gorgeous. It was like. It was something like, forgive the sort of Christian imagery, but it was like, I can only crucify myself, basically. And the, you know, breakdown of it was, if I attack, I am attacked, but if I forgive, I'm giving myself salvation. And everything I do, I do to myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, wow, that's fucking dope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So lately I've been trying to really deeply forgive and understand my family, everybody in my family. And one of the ways that I've been doing that is trying to go, like, we talked about this, I think last time, what I did the work on, like, in order to be safe, I need my parents to understand me in a way that I consider understanding, you know, Like, I need them to know me in a way that I can. That's what knowing is. Deep eye contact, like, record, like going, I hear you saying, I understand. But then you're like, I've been trying to get in touch with my mother coming over from Lithuania on a boat when she was seven with a family that, you know, I can't know for sure. But I don't think they were like emotionally intelligent geniuses. Meaning there wasn't. Because they were also tired. You know what I mean? They were also spread too thin. And there just wasn't as much care and gentleness as there is now, as we have with Leela, certainly, and as I had. So everybody's doing better, but I've been just picturing my dad in like a Newsies cap in a sepia toned Boston, Massachusetts, and just how fucking. I don't want to gaslight myself, but I don't want to gaslight myself the other way. The hatred way, the bile in my mouth way. I want to. I want to be real and go, like, I think he grew up in a time when that everyone does what they have to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Gary Goleman just did the pot and he pushed back as Rainn Wilson did. When I go, I really feel like my parents did the best they did because that's what they did.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And people go, like, couldn't they? But they could have done this and this and then. But done better. And I'm like, I think if they could, they would. Because could isn't just the ability to, let's say, read a book on modern parenting. It's having that modeled for you.

[A]

That.

[B]

That is a good thing to do. Having friends in your circle that are doing that. Like, we're not in charge. We want to think we're in charge. But like, I'm a product. I'm a product of my environment. It's from the Departed, but, like, I want my environment to be a product of me, but. But we are the products of our environments. And as much as I can go, like, you should be better. I knew people that went to therapy. Then I went to Therapy. I knew people that, like, I keep talking about Rob and Kristen Bell. Like, we moved into a beautiful place and knew that that would be okay and we wouldn't lose our minds. Well, we saw other people do it. So these things have been modeled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does any of that make sense?

[A]

Absolutely. I. Well, I think to the forgiveness element and like, seeing where they're from. Well, okay, let me start with this. I do think people are only as conscious as they can be like that. That's true. I. I also think that, you know, growing up and being. Having a mature brain is being able to hold two sometimes contradicting truths at the same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think it is like they did the best they could and it wasn't enough in a lot of ways. Like, that's. Both of those things are true.

[B]

We could say. I'm hearing you. I'm just like, I wonder if we could amend the language. It wasn't enough. It wasn't as much as I wanted.

[A]

Okay, sure. I would say it wasn't as much as you deserved even. I know you might not be comfortable with that, but I'll say that on behalf of your. This innocent child coming in. In some ways, not in all ways.

[B]

Yeah, I hear you.

[A]

But in like some certain emotional support ways, you. You deserved more. I also, I'm. If the. The like forgiving and seeing where they're coming from. I'm interested in that. Only if it alleviates your suffering, if it's to be good, if it's to let them off the hook, if it's to do any other thing than leave, relieve your suffering, then that's not helpful. We don't need that. That's fine. That can be true.

[B]

I hear that. And that's why I said the lesson today. It's completely for myself and not just if I. I love. I love this line of investigation, by the way, because we don't want to gaslight and we don't want to repress.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't want to bypass either, so. Because sometimes, you know, to me it's like forgiveness is on the other side of the battlefield of the. The. All the rage and the sadness and the grief and the trauma releasing and all of that. And I am speaking from my very specific lens of. I often use understanding where my parents come from to completely squelch my anger and sadness so that I don't have to feel it. Like, and it happens so fast. Like, I will be a little bit mad about something and I'll go, well, you know that blah, blah, Blah. Like, this is. That was how they were raised. And they didn't. Whatever. And then all of a sudden, like, I have an ex. Like, a sprinkler system goes off and totally washes out or extinguishes that fire. But then there's still, like, some smoldering coals that will get ignited very easily because I didn't just let the fire burn out to ash.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

So good. Yeah, that's so good.

[A]

I. I'm not. I'm not telling you how to heal. I'm just saying I'm speaking from that. That lens that sometimes forgiveness can also be like. Let's just, like, jump to understanding so that we don't have to feel the very uncomfortable feeling of, like, being mad and sad at our parents, you know? And you might not have that issue.

[B]

No, I do. Of course I do. I think what you just said applies to every living person. I had a phone call with my brother, and it doesn't matter what the details were, but he was filling me in on something, and. And I. My. One of my favorite parts. First of all, my brother and I are just so close these days and just really love and respect one another, and it's great having a big brother.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it took us a long time to get there. I actually said this to him. I was like, I don't try to like you or respect you or be impressed by you. I just. Just do. Like, there. There is a. Like. Like, telling yourself you do. And you're like, no, it happened. I have a big brother.

[A]

You are reparenting each other in a hard, forced, beautiful way. It's so. And it almost means more that you. That wasn't always your relationship.

[B]

No, it is. It. And we. We had a really nice chat about it because my brother and I weren't close growing up. And he's apologized for that, but that wasn't this. We weren't apologizing. We've moved past, like, I'm sorry I wasn't there. We're at a place now where it's like, everybody did what they had to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my brother was like a. More of a flight. And I was like, I'm gonna stay and try and wheel and deal. I'm gonna wheel and deal and see if I can get everybody, like, United nations style kind of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Agreeing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was I gonna say? My brother wheeling, dealing. Oh. But we. We were. Look, I'm a little. I'm not there yet to draw the line that everyone will draw when I say this. But someone recommended the book Disarming the Narcissist. And after three prefaces and forwards and introductions that I was yelling at, which.

[A]

Is so interesting, too.

[B]

Yelling at. You're like, shut the fuck up. Disarming the Narcissist, third edition, has a lot more. Shut the fuck up. I'm in pain.

[A]

Yeah. I need relief.

[B]

Get to the tips. You're about to hear a lot of tips that help in relationships with narcissist. Shut the up. Like, I was so. I was so hurting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I was like, this isn't a book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm drowning. Would you throw me a lifeline? And I'm not giving that book shit. In fact, I'm about to praise it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But first, go ahead.

[A]

I do think it is notable, and we all do this. I do this, too. That you're ins. That you know, nobody. Everybody's gonna be able to guess what I'm about to say. But instead of, like, dropping down and feeling the feelings, your brain is trying to find relief, like, as fast as it can through knowledge, understanding.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. It's trying to organize it. And it's like, help me.

[B]

But this was after a phone call with my brother where I was saying, every year around this time, I dread that the calendar, this arbitrary thing.

[A]

Thing.

[B]

Insists that families get together.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I am. I feel like a rat. A trapped rat. And I feel like, as you and you know this, so please don't feel like I'm pointing a finger at you. You love Christmas. And the day after Thanksgiving, Christmas music comes on, and it breaks. It breaks my heart a little bit. And by the way, we're going to do it. I love that you love it. I love that Leela loves it. And there's.

[A]

You're going to come up with a game plan.

[B]

And there's a large part of me that loves it, but there's another part that I'm working with, and I talk with my brother with where I go. I feel like a werewolf or like some sort of monster. And I said, a broken toy. Like, I feel like a broken toy. The whole world is, like, celebrating, and I'm just going, like, how do I negotiate the nuance of what I want, what my family wants? And, like, yeah, all that. And I'm just. I'm like. Even as I say now, I feel my insides start to twist. So I spent a good. I'm not saying this defensively. I'm just saying I was in the shit. I was feeling sad, I was feeling angry. But mostly Sad and talking about it. Not just going for the fire extinguisher.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But there was some time of just going like, this is uncomfortable and just feeling it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then I put on the book and at that point I was like, I don't care. Like one of the things at the end of the thing. Nobody cares. But it goes like the forward ends and it goes like forward. By Dr. Bill McDoug from the McDoug Institute. Chairman. It gave like credits. Chairman of the McDoug Foundation. Founded 1998. Ph.D. columbia University. It's really funny. Gripping the wheel, yelling, shut the fuck up. Risking my life to try and find a way to skip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. Anyway, we get to it. Let's go to the mid rolls real quick because we're at 45 and we only have about an hour. So when we get back, we'll talk a little bit about more about disarming the narcissist because it was so helpful. And then we'll do the apparently thing. So we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. I don't know if you're like me. I've got a very, very active brain and very often thoughts keep me up at night. Sometimes I get up to pee, I come back to bed, and it just starts flooding out. Repetitive, unhelpful, obsessive thoughts. Stress, anxiety. There's always something to worry about. Turns out one great way to make those racing thoughts go away, and I know this from experience, is to talk them through. These are unresolved things that are begging for our attention. And talk therapy is a wonderful way to unravel that. Web therapy gives you a place to do this so you can get out of your negative thought cycles and find some mental and emotional peace. I've benefited so much from therapy. I always say it's greater than the sum of its parts. Talking to a trained professional helps in ways that, honestly, I don't think we even fully understand. It's a deeply human thing. It's a need, and it makes a difference. It's gotten me out of toxic relationships, bad work situations. It's helped me get healthier in my body because when I clean it up upstairs, it helps me clean up my life in the third dimension. It's a huge coping skill. It's a huge way to set boundaries with family, with friends, with work. And it empowers you to be the best version of yourself. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. All you do is fill out a brief questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can even switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. So get a break from your thoughts with better help. Visit betterhelp.com weirdo today for 10% off your first month. That's better help. H E L p.com weirdo we're also brought to us by another product that has absolutely changed my life for the better. It's a part of my morning routine. Here we are on Monday morning. I just did this element. Element is a delicious additive. It's silly to call it a powder. It's so much more than that that you pour in your water for me. I got this from Dr. Huberman. Every morning. I start with water that has minerals in it. We're talking about magnesium, potassium, and sodium to jumpstart your day. It's incredible for after workouts, but it's also just a part of my routine, Flooding my system with that stuff that it's craving. Healthy hydration is what we're talking about. And element knows it's not just about water. It's about water plus electrolytes. The problem is so many things that have electrolytes in them are crammed with sugar. This is zero sugar. I do it when I'm fasting. It doesn't break my fast. Element is a huge part of my wellness program, part of my morning routine that I genuinely look forward to. I start it. I like their watermelon salt in the morning. Sometimes at night, I do their chocolate salt. And I do it hot, like a hot chocolate. It's incredible. Especially when I'm fasting. Feels like I'm giving myself a treat. But like I said, I'm flooding my cells with this very, very specific blend. It's an optimum ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium for health, performance, energy, and recovery. Because when you're not hydrated, what what happens? Headaches, low energy, cramps, confusion. It sucks. So get yourself something that makes water taste way better. Makes me drink more water, which is awesome. Get it in and enjoy it and get those elements that you need. Lmnt. By the way, it's not element. It's lmnt. They have a fantastic offer for us. Just go to drink LMNT. Drink element.com weird and use promo code weird at checkout and you'll get a free element sample pack. When with your order. When you order. My friend Ken, who's a longtime friend of mine, listener to the podcast, he texted me. He's like his Element legit. I text him back. I was like, it is legit. And now he sends me pictures of him drinking it. It's. It's the best. Get it in your daily routine. You will not regret it, especially after you exercise. It's a fantastic feeling to get those things back into your body that you are craving. Drink element.com. weird. Okay, we're back so real, real fast. In the first chapter when the book finally got to it, and again, I was in a pain, pain place. So I'm sure the intros are lovely if you're just sipping a goddamn lemonade. But once we got into the first chapter, it was what I was hoping for, which I was like. It was like somebody showing me a map of my life, like, laying out a. A document and going like, look. And in the first chapter. And again, I'm not diagnosing anybody. I know that's very trendy. I'm just saying that some of the issues, like inability to apologize was addressed.

[A]

Immediately, which is like pinpointing the issue that you're dealing with, which I.

[B]

Which I actually said to Gary Goldman. I was like, I think you helped me point out what my dad's apology sounds like. It doesn't sound like what I would want it sound like, but it's kind of there anyway. That's me, you know, sifting through the sands here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But all that aside, all that, like, optimism and compassion aside, it did help me to go like, oh, this is. But not just like, finger wagging. This is why. This is what it feels like for somebody potentially else to evolve. Like, it feels kind of like the end of the world. Like, feels like the end of their life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, that's helpful. Now we're not just talking about a relationship or a person. We're talking about a type of personality, potentially, that is different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it. And now we can more dispassionately unpack it and work with it. But in that first chapter, it wasn't. It wasn't just one person. A lot of things in my life were coming together and going like, this is helping me, giving me some clarity. So I'm going to be doing some more digging on narcissistic personality disorder. And yeah, again, not to label and dismiss, but to rather go like, what. What is happening? Like, talk about not being in control if something's happening. Our friend Jen was like, it's almost like a possession.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like there's a. There's something in the way to stop someone, especially if this is exactly what you want from going like, snapping out of it and going like, I hear you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That must have been really hard for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That wasn't my intention, but I'm humiliated and mortified that that's how I made you feel. Feel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so sorry. What can we do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To prevent that in the future? Because that's the last thing I want in this relationship.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wow. That felt good. Just to say.

[A]

I know. And you can, you can keep saying those things to yourself, to your child. Self.

[B]

Or I could just eat. I just love eating just like a whole pizza.

[A]

I. I think that, like, wait, I'm losing it. I. Feeling it slip away.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I think you're doing great work. I want to say that. And. And. Oh, that's what I was gonna say. So. Reading about this stuff, like context is so important for like contextualizing and containing, putting in, you know, making a shape around trauma is so important because trauma, especially complex trauma, where there's not like one event to point to, is so nebulous and mercurial. And you're just like, it's so intertwined with everything. You're like, I don't know if this is me or what. Or like, should I be fixing this? Or whose roles. It's all so hard. So, like having somebody say, hey, there's a name for this thing, this behavior, and all of it is this, this, this, this, this. Like, here's the list of behaviors. And you're like, yeah, that's it. Like all of a sudden the walls start to build and like a container starts to form.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then there's edges, which means there is something somewhere where this is not. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not just your whole reality anymore. It's being contained to this sort of concept and experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there's like a way out where that's not your only experience.

[B]

Right. It's funny that the book is called Disarming the Narcissist because I'm like, I'm not really interested in disarming. I just want to understand, like it is for people that are like married to people that are like, co parenting. Like, you have to. And I'm just like, I'd really just like to have some understanding, take things less personally.

[A]

Well, maybe it's like disarming for you. It's like disarming him and your mine and like how much authority he has over your own.

[B]

I like that experience. I like that.

[A]

Okay. Apparently.

[B]

Yeah. So this was a really Funny moment. I wonder if I can do it on stage. I don't think so, but it's the most dad energy thing I've ever done. And you were sending our. We. We have an E bike. As you guys probably know, they were a sponsor and apparently. Oh, I shouldn't say that, but, like, yeah, you shouldn't leave any bike plugged in. Something that the guy at the bike shop told me. Yeah, he's like, it's one out of 20,000, but he's like, it's just don't mess around with leaving these things. And it says in the instructions too, don't leave it plugged in for more than 12 hours. Stuff like that. But the guy at the bike shop was like, for real, it. Because in New York City, I think they charge so many of them. You know, there's couriers and stuff that, like, sometimes there's accidents. There's, like, fires.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. You're sending our babysitter. I forgot to unplug our E bike.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're in the car. Lila's in the back. You're sending a voice text to our house sitter. Our house sitter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, before you started sending it, I'm like, could you please tell her to unplug the E bike?

[A]

Yeah. So I'm like, sending her all of the instructions, but I'm like, voice dictating it. So I'm like, the bunnies and chickens have food and water. Just check on the bunnies every day. And can you also unplug the E bikes?

[B]

And then I lean over and go, apparently it can cause a fire. Like, I project my voice into your voice text. Not a voice memo, but, like, it wrote it out.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was like, the most. It was like my pen. It was a Uniball vision pen.

[A]

It was a pen.

[B]

I was writing it in ink. It was an onyx. I leaned over. Apparently it can cause a fire. And when I did it, it made so much sense. The moment after I did it, it stopped making any sense. I was like, what am I doing? I'm over here going, like, if you don't incentivize, I'm trying to wheel and deal. You don't incentivize her. Why is she gonna remember that? You have to be like, it's a hazard.

[A]

She'll never. She'll never do what she's being asked to do unless she knows that it could be a fire. And just like, not being like, you know, maybe add apparently it can cause a fire.

[B]

Right. I just did it. I was like. It was so hyper, blunt, masculine, that I was like, I'm gonna say it. Val's gonna keep it. We're gonna keep going. Apparently, it can cause a fire, and then you're just gonna go. And the back door is locked. But the. You know, whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So we laughed really hard when that happened.

[B]

Really, really hard. This is the best part. We laughed really hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Lila didn't know why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because why is that funny? What?

[A]

Right. So the quick explanation we gave her was we were like, dad, I leaned over and said, apparently it can cause a fire. You know, like, to my phone or whatever. And now anytime one of us is voice dictating a text, she'll. She'll go up.

[B]

Apparently, I could cause a fire. And then laughs her butt off.

[A]

Yeah. So now first family inside family joke. Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that special?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Apparently it can cause a fire. All right, I. We're doing this Wednesday morning because I'm. I'm burning it at both ends.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And we were just in St. Louis, and I'm on my way to Raleigh, and I don't normally do two weekends back to back, but, you know, not a lot happening in show business, so it was like, let's do it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But I'm so glad we got this time.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

We literally were like, we have one hour. We did it.

[A]

There was one hour where we could do it.

[B]

I'm glad we did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And thank you, always. I mean, it's just a gift you give us every week, Val. It's like I talk about all these overwhelming feelings, and you help us. I think you help everyone that's listening navigate them, and there. It's not. Feelings are no joke.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's like, I feel like even having talked about what we've talked about, like, the tension, usually I feel less tension, but today we kind of did some confronting, and it was. It was hard. I'm just saying, like, we've said this a million times. When you're not feeling a feeling, you're like, feeling. Who cares? Feelings. Get out of here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you're feeling feelings, you're like, no, there's nothing but feelings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All there is is feelings.

[A]

So real.

[B]

And so you helping me and. And thereby, I think everyone listening with how to, like, welcome, work with, understand and not bypass or gaslight or, you know, it's invaluable. It's why we do it every week. That's the work that we. That's always there to do.

[A]

Well, I think that. That you help people with your vulnerability and letting us, like, see as it's happening in real time, which is so uncomfortable. It's so much easier to be like, I worked through this thing last year, and now I'm on the other side.

[B]

Well, that's because we do these pods now in real time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, yeah, it is more of a. Like, this is now that I talked to my brother yesterday.

[A]

Yeah, this is happening right now. You're on, like, such a big healing journey, and everybody listening, I'm sure is benefiting from.

[B]

I hope so. Inside Scope for me and for everyone. I. If we can just kind of, like, process and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, I don't want to sound too.

[A]

Complimentary of our own show.

[B]

No, no, no. Too practical and be like. And move on, and then we can wheel and deal again. That's not what I'm saying. It's like, life is tricky. I'm glad we all have each other, that we have this community and that we have each other.

[A]

Yeah. All right, babies. Keep it crispy.

[B]

You kind of said something weird.

[A]

I know. And because I also said scope earlier, and I meant to say scope Scoop. I said, you gave us the inside scope. And then I was like, do I just leave this?

[B]

I didn't catch that. I must have been deep.

[A]

You were talking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, well, okay. Let me try that again. Take two. Keep it crispy.