We Made It Weird #160

Summary

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Podcast Summary: You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes – "We Made It Weird #160"

Date: January 12, 2024
Host: Pete Holmes
Co-host/Guest: Valerie (Pete’s partner)

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Overview

In this playful yet deeply introspective episode, Pete Holmes and his partner Valerie (“Val”) explore the hidden weirdness that everyone carries, with a heavy focus on relationships, self-worth, childhood wounds, parenthood, and the ways therapy/psychology (specifically inspired by Alain de Botton’s work) can reveal the unconscious scripts running our lives. They blend silly, off-the-wall humor with raw self-disclosure in a style that’s part couple’s therapy, part standup, and part philosophy salon. Alain de Botton’s appearance on the “Diary of a CEO” podcast serves as intellectual background for their conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Influence of Alain de Botton and the Concept of ‘Job Snobs’

• Pete credits Alain de Botton’s podcast for much of the episode’s inspiration, focusing on how our self-worth is often (mis)measured by career success rather than luck or circumstance ([12:11], [19:46]).
• De Botton’s definition of "snob": someone who judges a person’s whole character based on a single aspect, such as their job ([20:07], [21:58]).

Quote

"A snob is someone who judges someone's entire character based on one thing. And I was like, oh, my phone is ringing. My inside phone is ringing. He says a lot of things where I'm like, oh, no, it's a call from my deepest, truest self."
— Pete, [20:07]

• Discussion of how ancient Greeks viewed misfortune as fate (and called people "unfortunate"), whereas modern society calls people who are struggling "losers," directly linking outcomes to personal character ([22:59]).

Quote

"They would call them unfortunate... but now, you call someone who just can't get it going in every area of their life, you call them a loser."
— Pete, [23:45]

2. Childhood Strategies & Adult Behavior

• The pair unpack how self-protection strategies learned in childhood—especially around love and safety—morph into adult issues. (e.g., if love was enmeshed/cloying, you may learn to withdraw from intimacy as an adult) ([21:49]).
• Pete connects his drive for performance and external validation—including the dream of SNL fame—to early survival strategies.

Quote

"So much of my life is going like, shut up. Everything was fine. And it's like, really? Yeah... I have the symptom of someone who didn't feel safe, seen. Whatever. And then, of course, I learned, you know, sparkle and shine, and then you'll get what you need."
— Pete, [55:38]

• Both reflect on ways their parents’ behaviors—often unconsciously—shaped their worldviews.

3. The False Self, True Self, and the Need for Recognition

• Pete examines his tendency to regulate self-worth through audience feedback—onstage laughs confirm that “I exist” ([76:00] through [77:12]), and post-performance social interactions feel jarring because they don’t provide the same validation.
• The “true self” is discussed as the part of oneself that longs to be unfiltered—a place that often emerges in comedy, intimacy, or safe friendships.

4. Parenting and the Challenge of Acknowledging Children’s Feelings

• Drawing from both Alain de Botton and Dr. Becky Kennedy, Val reflects on the difficulty of not overriding their daughter’s emotions with forced optimism or “fixing” ([41:31], [44:22]).
• The ongoing tension between wanting to nurture and needing to set boundaries is explored through parenting stories ([43:16]).

5. Modern Meritocracy, Gender, and Social Status

• They discuss how the relentless focus on "what do you do?" at gatherings replaces the old question of "who are your people?"—and how both serve as exclusionary status games ([28:05], [31:46]).
• Female worth is also tied to looks when “job snobbery” isn’t available, something Valerie points out with frustration ([35:20]).

Quote

"What women lack in success, they can make up their worth in how their bodies look."
— Valerie, [35:20]

6. Relationship Dynamics, Wounds, and Healing

• Using their own relationship, Pete and Val unpack how each chose a partner with enough similarity to early caregivers to “fix what was broken” in safer, healthier ways ([64:39], [65:03], [67:11]).
• They dive into the concept that adult love often unconsciously follows childhood pain patterns, but deep, secure relationships can re-script those narratives.

Quote

"Your wheels fit perfectly on the track of my dysfunctional understanding of love. And then you flew in it and you shot two little torpedoes down the hole and you blew it up... that's fucking emotional."
— Pete, [67:11]

7. Humor, Teasing, Openness, and Sex

• The episode is peppered with silly bits—pretending to start a “What Do I Do With My Hands?” podcast ([06:24]-[08:30]), joking about butter in weird places, and riffing on podcast trends and accents.
• Humor and gentle teasing are viewed as healthy ways couples can address grievances and “show how you're mad” without animosity ([72:20]).
• Both believe that openness to discussing flaws, vulnerabilities, and even sexual dynamics helps prevent resentment and keeps relationships (and sex) alive ([73:34], [88:08], [89:14]).

Quote

"Admit how you're mad... most of our relationship is not resisting, but conceding, this is how I'm crazy."
— Pete, [73:34]

8. Game Night as Metaphor for Life & Psychology

• The episode ends with a hilarious and insightful recounting of a game night playing "Telestrations" ([92:31]+). Pete obsesses over his perfect “bedbug” drawing being misinterpreted, which becomes a metaphor for his deep need to be seen and understood—while Valerie delights in the imperfect, group mishaps of the game.
• The whole experience serves as a microcosm: Pete seeks specialness/recognition, Val seeks merging with the group, each playing out early adaptive strategies in adult life ([102:05]).

Quote

"This is what games are supposed to do, is showcase what the fuck is wrong with us."
— Pete, [103:27]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "His voice is like, filling my butt crack with that butter, not to be eaten, just for the feeling of something very creamy." – Pete, [14:25]
  (a quintessential weird/humorous Pete moment as they riff about butter)

• "[Sex is] becoming more and more of a safe place to be... it's a different sex Pete and Val that comes out in that way." – Pete, [89:15]

• "You want the bad drawings. It's way funnier... but I really am coming at reality from a place where I'm like, we should say bedbug. And it should be bedbug." – Pete, [97:01]; reflecting on his need for clarity, mastery, and validation.

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Important Timestamps

• [06:24]–[08:30]: "What Do I Do With My Hands?" parody and banter about starting new podcasts.
• [19:46]–[21:58]: Alain de Botton’s influence, “job snobs” and the system of status judging.
• [28:05]–[31:46]: “What do you do?” as the new social status measure, and ramifications of tying self-worth to success.
• [41:31]–[45:10]: Parenting dilemmas, emotional acknowledgment vs. forced optimism.
• [55:38]–[58:50]: Pete’s self-examination of his need for fame/audience confirmation and how that stems from childhood.
• [67:11]–[68:07]: The Death Star metaphor — relationships as healing the grooves of childhood wounds.
• [72:20]–[73:34]: Teasing and humor as ways of coping with conflict in intimate relationships.
• [92:31]–[103:27]: Game night as psychological metaphor; Pete’s need for recognition vs. Valerie’s love of group connection/messiness.

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Continuous blend of affectionate, absurdist comedy and vulnerable honesty.
• Swing between high-energy riffing (singing, inside jokes, silly metaphors) and genuine self-reflection.
• Both hosts model self-deprecation and couple therapy in practice.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Our “weirdness”—the secret struggles, the quirks, the wounds—often stems from both societal structures and personal history.
• Therapy and conversation can unpack these patterns, and humor is a vital tool for transformation.
• Relationships serve as both magnifying glass and healing ground for all our “weird” stuff—if we let ourselves be seen and practice loving each other’s messiness.

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Recommended If You Like:
Armchair Expert, Esther Perel’s “Where Should We Begin?”, Brene Brown, therapy-centric podcasts, self-examination with a shot of offbeat humor.

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Summary by Assistant.

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it weird. You made it weird. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You made it weird. Yes, you did. It made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[A]

What's happening, weirdos? We're back. And this time we're better than ever.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

I actually do think so.

[B]

I think this is one for the ages.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Silly, funny, laughing, singing.

[A]

Personal therapy.

[B]

A lot of therapy. Sex.

[A]

A lot of more therapy. Well, relation. Deep, deep, dirty relationship. Guts.

[B]

I want to plug it again because this episode is sort of brought to.

[A]

You by Elaine de Patton.

[B]

I don't know what DOAC is, but that's the name of the podcast. Doac and the love Expert. The guest is Alain Debotton. Alain Debotton, Elaine. Oh, it's the diary of a CEO with Stephen Bartlett. Oh, that's doac. So anyway, Neil Brennan shared Alain de Botton with me. That's not how you say it.

[A]

It might be. We don't know.

[B]

I've heard people just say Alan Debotton.

[A]

Anyway, Alan D. Button.

[B]

So very inspiring stuff. Go listen to that podcast after you listen to this one.

[A]

Listen to this first.

[B]

I do think this is a better first one anyway, meaning whatever. It doesn' which one you listen to or if you listen to either of them. But it was very inspiring and it was the backdrop to this conversation and it helped my life so much. All these things that we're about to talk about and I hope it helps you guys as well. Not too much to plug. Netflix is a joke festival in Los Angeles and Chicago. Those are my only tour dates right now, so go to PeteHomes.com Chicago these are both in May, so check those out. Also Largo. Largo-la.com I'll be there on the 30th. Yay. Which is going to be great.

[A]

Can't wait.

[B]

Really great people. Gianmarco Sorci is going to do it and he's one of my absolute favorites and a whole other slew of wonderful talent. So that's going to be awesome. And if you like the show, your support means so much, why not try a Peter's Pick? Katie, if you like this show and you want to support it, why not try a Pete's Pick like element? I've been giving so many of my friends elements. It's wonder what is element? It's a hydration super power, basically, because healthy hydration isn't just about drinking water. It's water plus electrolytes. And that's what LMNT element is. It's incredible in the morning. Dr. Andrew Huberman promotes drinking a salty water in the morning to get that neuro connectivity going to jump start your day. That's when I drink my element. Not only does it give you magnesium and potassium and salt that you need to get that hydration into your cells, but but it also tastes fantastic which also leads to drinking more water and feeling better. Element has been a huge part of my wellness program. I give it to friends who exercise. They drink it after a jog. They say it basically floods them with everything that they just sweat out. I of course drink it after I work out or after I sauna, but I also just drink it after a flight. Anytime that I'm in a situation that I know dehydrated me and I want to flood that into me, I drink it before shows because there's nothing about, there's nothing better than that rush of the magnesium, the potassium and the salt that just gives your body what it needs. Hydration is so much more than just drinking water. Get LMNT into your life. I love their watermelon salt flavor. I also love their chocolate salt flavor which I drink hot at night sometimes. I often find if you drink it before bed, I don't get up to pee. Something about the salt water, processing the water, I can't explain it. I absolutely love it. It is a game changer and if element doesn't exceed your expectations, they have a no questions ass refund policy. You don't even need to send it back. And they came up with a fantastic offer for us. Go to drinklmnt.com weird use promo code weird and you'll get a free element sample pack with any order, which I love because you can try all the different flavors. Some of them are spicy, which I really love. Some of them are more sweet like the watermelon that's my daily go to drinkelement.com weird use promo code weird support your body, support healthy hydration and support the show. We're also brought to us by our friends at the Open App. If you're like me, you've always been out there looking for the secrets to success. Which is really just another way of saying how can we overcome the problems that so many of us face in our daily lives. Problems like sleep, stress, focus, and for me, setting up maintaining daily healthy habits. This is the secret, obviously, but we sometimes need help and I found that in the Open app. I recently discovered this wonderful tool. If you'd like me, you've tried it all. Trendy diets, books, even bad things like drawing the blinds, taking an edible and watching bad movies all day. Avoidance is not the solution. It took me years to find a better way, and now I'm passing it on to you. The Open method is simple and it works. It combines breath, work, meditation, and fitness. And they have a badass community of people doing it all together. They're all committed to personal growth, so you have that accountability and that community to join. Open is the only thing I do every day that sets me up for success. I usually do the breath work in the morning. Makes me feel more focused than coffee, floods your body with just, like, good life energy and dials you in. The breath work, it's so fun to do, but I need that guidance. I need that help, and the Open app is wonderful at that. I also do their nighttime meditation before bed, and I fall asleep in under 10 minutes every time. If it was just that, it would be awesome, but it's so much more. And the fitness and the community, it's incredibly well designed. You'll know when you see it. My only regret is not starting sooner. The app will change your life. So if you want to get on my daily routine, you can get 30 days free of open by visiting withopen.com weird. And again, 30 days free by visiting withopen.com weird. Oh, and if you're in LA, make sure you check out their new studio to practice with Open in person. Support your body, support your breath, support your fitness, support your life, and support the show. All right, everybody, let's get into it. It's. Oh, I kind of said it. I did say it. Let's enjoy it.

[A]

Valerie, get into it.

[B]

What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands?

[A]

What do I do with my hands?

[B]

What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands? What do I do?

[A]

What?

[B]

What? What?

[A]

What?

[B]

What? What do I What? What do I do with my hand? With my hands? With my hands? With my hands? What do I do with my hands? What do I do? We missed. We got off sync.

[A]

What?

[B]

Welcome to the what do I Do with My Hands Podcast. It's the first episode. Look, we've seen everyone out there. We see Jason Bateman, we see Conan o'. Brien, we see and everybody and Andy Richter has in podcast now. So now we're in the mix. You are reaching into the mix. There's cashews, that's Conan. There's almonds, that's Rogan. And then you dip all the way down and find single Eminem. It's us Crispy crunchy. It's us Crispy crunchy. It's a pretzel lemon M. And you are now its new best friend.

[A]

And now it's new best friend.

[B]

And you are now its new best friend. What do I do? Just please support our patreon. Go to what do I do with my hands.patreon.com Go on cameo. We will send you a 45 second video telling you what to do with your hands in any situation. You're at a funeral, we call this the Boyz II Men. You're gonna clasp them.

[A]

You are going to interlock them pointed towards your chest.

[B]

Thumbs up, thumbs up. Bring them in towards the belly. Then up close, one click.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You look like an angel. So the people that just lost someone go, you've seen them. You're an angel.

[A]

Oh, my God. Did you miss us? Did you miss us? Did you miss us while we gone? Did you miss us while we're gone? Did you miss us? Did you miss us? Did you miss us while we're gone?

[B]

While we're gone how miss us baby girls? Did you miss us? Baby boys? Did you miss us?

[A]

Baby girls? Did you miss us while we're gonn. Did you miss us?

[B]

It's a dub dub step. What do I do with my hands?

[A]

This would be the funniest moment for someone to turn off the podcast.

[B]

Just be like, nope, I support you.

[A]

I agree with you.

[B]

So I were Car. Car. Well, first of all, we'll get into that, but I do want to say that I sent the podcast that I sent to you years. That Neil Brennan sent to me years. His name is Alan, but I think it's.

[A]

It's Elaine.

[B]

I know it's Alain.

[A]

No, but it is Alan.

[B]

Alan A l a I n. Yeah, it sounds like you should say it French. Alain de Bon Alen de Bonton is here today. He is going to speak to us in a very TR accent. Not at all. This is French.

[A]

This guy is talking about someone else's accent.

[B]

I'm very aware that my accent is great. In three years, people do not like my accent.

[A]

I think it's funnier if he's not aware he's like similar to me. He tried to put up with this guy's very weird accent.

[B]

The next guy come that has a very weird way of talking and I find it crating to the ear. But if you listen. So I sent it to Judd and Judd tried to listen to it.

[A]

People Are gonna think that we edited something right there.

[B]

It felt like a pickup.

[A]

So anyway, he went so straight the idea. So I sent it to Judd.

[B]

That's a fun game. Oh, this is the edit game. So I sent it to Judd, trying.

[A]

To do it anyway. No, you can't say any.

[B]

I said it to Jeddon. Any. And he just found the guy's voice. I found his voice very charming.

[A]

I loved his voice. In fact, it was Queen's English.

[B]

It wasn't just the King's English.

[A]

No, it was.

[B]

Had a bath. It had had a bath.

[A]

It had a bath.

[B]

It had a stroll in the garden with a spot of tea.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I can't even do it.

[A]

No, it's. It is like.

[B]

I think is like, let's play a little sniper.

[A]

I would. I would. I bet there are some British people who would describe it as posh.

[B]

Is it posh? If you were a spice. Is he posh? Here's what he sounds like.

[A]

He'd be Victoria Beckham.

[B]

Oh, no. So this is the DOAC podcast. It's called the Love Expert with Alain de Bourton. Various people got very interested in water supply. All the main cities, Paris, London, New York got a complete overhaul of their water supplies because it was suddenly discovered microscopic organisms. I'm gonna say something microscopic. I'm gonna say something that's. That's a little cheeky, a little daft, a little wild.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It feels like a very soft. You know when you're at a restaurant. Sure you do, but it's a great restaurant, and they don't just put out, like, it's not just the golden bricks of butter at an ihop.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Although I love that too.

[A]

Oh, who doesn't?

[B]

I love that. It's gold. Thank you.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

Find who made that decision and thank them. It didn't have to be gold.

[A]

No.

[B]

It should have been yellow.

[A]

Did you used to warm it in your hands?

[B]

I've never done that.

[A]

You've never done that? It's so nice.

[B]

I used to tuck it between my cheeks. There's the sauna of the body.

[A]

I used to tuck it between my cheeks, too.

[B]

Your mouth cheeks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lila will eat that. And in the Chris Fryland, I did.

[A]

Too, as a kid. And you know what? Almost fine.

[B]

Sorry. Just two podcasts at once. David Spade used to say that Chris Farley would eat a stick of butter as an appetizer, and so would everybody. I'm saying it. Everyone in Madison, Wisconsin does that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Every person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, but, you know, dairy country throw.

[A]

Yeah, but you know dairy country.

[B]

You know when you're in a drug deal and they stick a knife in the coke and they snort it? So you're at a meal, you throw a stick. Stick of butter in your mouth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's like testing the merchandise.

[A]

Okay, go back to what I was more interested in, which was what you were saying before this.

[B]

His voice is. When you're at a nice restaurant and they put out a little white dish of butter, and there's two, like, thick, clearly human cut pieces of butter. And you know, the salt. I don't even have to tell you the kind of salt on it, but it's granular.

[A]

Morton's probably.

[B]

Let's not bring more big Mortons into this. I'm just kidding. They are a sponsor.

[A]

Are you talking about the, like, Melon Ballard? No, because I like those.

[B]

I'm okay with that. That makes me feel like, what is this, a wedding?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like.

[A]

You don't like. I don't feel like you're at a wedding. You don't want to be married.

[B]

Alain Dubouton would find your joke significant, Alan. No, he actually. Okay, so I'm going to jump ahead, you know. Okay. So that kind of butter and you. His voice is like, filling my butt crack with that butter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not to be eaten. Just for the feeling of something very creamy.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Let's be real. If you pooped your pants and dropped the label, poop, you're just in a squish. It's kind of nice to be filling.

[A]

It's like how kids. Yeah. Kids who poop their pants and diapers. A lot of kids are like, you're spackled. Like, this is great.

[B]

Yeah, you've been spackled. You have a crack and it's been. Yeah, that seems like a Barbie.

[A]

What?

[B]

You can't spread a Barbie's cheeks. It's just. And nothing on the front.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is great.

[A]

This is great material.

[B]

No, no, no. This is like a human ideal.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure. I don't think they want it to be spackled with shit, though.

[B]

No, but I'm saying take shit away. Now that I've sold you on shit. Now I can. Now I go, well, I'm a salesman, buddy. Forget that. Cause I'm filling your crack with. And not just any butter. It's that kind in a dish. And it's not melon balls. And it's got Morton. It's Christmas. I think snowed is Christmas. It's Christmas with salt.

[A]

But also, snowed is not a thing.

[B]

Snowed.

[A]

It snowed with salt. Would you say that?

[B]

No, but it's been Christmased with salt.

[A]

That you took the thing that wasn't a thing and then you made another.

[B]

Word and then you in my butt. And I just go, oh, I feel complete.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's be real. Most of us are going around going like, I feel incomplete. And you are. You have a crack down your butt.

[A]

You know, the story that my mom loves to tell, and she would tell if she were on this podcast in this moment, is that when I was three, I fell, like, hard on my butt, and she went, oh, are you okay? Let me check. And then she, like, looked back there and went, you cracked your butt? And I was like, what? And, like, genuinely terrified. And then the whole family laughed and told that story my whole life. Like, it was so. And I was like, you guys made me think I broke a part of my body.

[B]

So went the early 90s.

[A]

Yeah. It really was like, look at how dumb these kids are. She doesn't even know she's got a butt crack.

[B]

I've been. Well, okay. So one of my interests in Alain de Beauton is these unconscious things that we're doing to our kids that's very interesting to me and that I'm doing to you. This sort of unconscious thought system that I'm folding you into.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'd like more. I'm thinking about going back to Cali therapy. You don't know that song I'm Going back?

[A]

No, I do, but I didn't know what you meant. Yeah, because that was a different word.

[B]

Well, because I listened to this podcast with Alain Dubu, and the punchline with the Judd thing was he couldn't listen to his voice. He found it too uppity. Uppy.

[A]

Yeah. Posh.

[B]

I think. I think it was, like, fast talking British, like, high energy. And when I read that, what I wanted to say was like, I'm hearing irritability. And this is what Alain Dubaton would say. Irritability is rage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And rage is something we can find and uncover and work with. So, like, it's interesting. Like, asking ourselves questions. So Alain Duponton is a psychotherapist at something called the School of Life. I just learned about him, and I've. I've been blown away.

[A]

I just realized.

[B]

You listened to him this morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Were you blown away?

[A]

I was blown away. I did just realize what's blowing me away more. And maybe this is. I would say most certainly. This is only interesting to me.

[B]

Can't wait.

[A]

Is that I've One of my favorite podcasts is Cuddle Club with Lou Sanders. And she has Lou Sanders. You've been on her podcast? Yeah, dummy. You butter butt dingus.

[B]

This butterbutt doesn't even remember being on Cuddlebuds. Is that what it's called?

[A]

Cuddle Club. And she, she's British and she has a whole segment like, she's like. It's like a whole segment where they read something or do something with la de baton. And I've never known what she was saying there. Like, I was like, what is that? What's that word?

[B]

Okay, well, I feel like the whole island of the United Kingdom, they love being called an island. It's up, ups tourism. Come to the island of the United Kingdom, taste coconuts. There's a guy in the snow playing steel drums.

[A]

The most British looking guy you've ever seen.

[B]

We know what he looks like.

[A]

You can.

[B]

You got his. I know. His hat.

[A]

At least I hope I'm right and that that's not another person and I didn't just make a fool of myself.

[B]

Well, all of this is psychologically significant. Well, one of the things that he said that I thought might be fun. We had this nice conversation last night, and I was. I was happy about that.

[A]

You and I.

[B]

You and I, Yeah. Meaning I run a risk. I risk it for a biscuit all the days. And sometimes when we're talking, I'm like, oh, shit, we're having this great conversation and I do like sharing it.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, I wish we were not. I didn't wish we were recording it, but I was like, oh, it'll be okay. We'll kind of be able to talk about it tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm gonna drop that. That expectation for myself. I'm gonna let it go. But I will say the one thing that I really remember that Alain Duponton taught me was he was like, we're snobs. And I was like. And he goes, what is a snob? A snob is someone who judges someone's entire character based on one thing. And I was like, oh, my phone is ringing. My inside phone is ringing. He says a lot of things where I'm like, oh, no, I haven't heard phone ring in a while. And it's a call from my deepest, truest self. And I thought this was significant and ideally helpful to maybe people listening. Certainly to me was that like, geez, geez Louise, I've been doing that so hard. I wanted to do a joke for a long Time about how I was raised by snobs and. But. And with all love and respect for my parents, everybody's doing the best they can. That could be true. And I learned that their strategy for safety in the world, which is Alain de Botton's whole thing, he's like, whatever you're doing, that's not helping you now, some might call a flaw, was a brilliant strategy when you were young to survive and thrive. So the example that he gives is like, if you were with a. This is his example, by the way. He goes, if you had a mother that was like, suicidal and. And cloying and was drawing you into them to, like, save them and protect them, and they needed you, and that's what you were taught love was. Was like a black widow model. Now these are my words, meaning, like, you go in and then you realize you're in a web and you're like, love is a web and it's a spider.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you learn to withdraw because you need to eventually leave this home and become your own person. So he goes, that's brilliant. Brilliant. Now you're in relationships, things start to get serious and you cheat on them or you leave them, or you withdraw or you make them leave you. I've done that. I'll just become less desirable and they'll get tired because I'm too much of a coward to break up with them. So I'll just keep eating teriyaki wings in a white robe and wiping it on my lapel. So he goes, that strategy, which was brilliant, is no longer serving you. But you need to look at your childhood and figure this stuff out. So one of the things that my parents very, very much did, again with good intention or unconscious intention, was taught me to, like, judge and label everything and to, like, measure it and weigh it. Is it real? This brings up another thing I'm not going to forget, the meritocracy thing, which is what I want to talk about in Job Snobs. But this idea that the Greeks had a word for, like, somebody who's not doing well financially.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They would call them or, you know, in their life situation, like, they can't get it going in their relationships and their job, their life, their body, whatever it is, they would call them unfortunate.

[A]

Yeah. Because it was based on the fates that.

[B]

Yes. You just listened to this.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. So it was like the. Either the fates have given you good fortune or bad fortune, but this happened. But it's outside of you.

[B]

Yes. This idea that you're in a larger system and the system involves things like chaos and luck and fortune. So they would be constantly making sacrifices to fortune, pleading to fortune, wish upon a star sort of stuff. We don't have that anymore. He goes, what do you call someone who just can't get it going in every area of their life? You call them a loser.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a real word that I got from my dad. You lose a Peter loser or a bum. You know what I mean?

[A]

Which is so. Like, I thought when you told me that last night, I was like, I don't know if I really do that. And then when he said. When I heard him say it this morning on the podcast, the example he gave was. He's like, if I said to you, yeah, I just got sacked. And I just got sacked.

[B]

My purse got nicked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All the British ways.

[A]

I lost my flat.

[B]

The tube left moments before I arrived. I didn't mind the gap. I felt fell in. I'm dead. I'm right expired. I've laid flat for the night.

[A]

And I think it's made me gone go mad. And I've gone mad. I can't do it.

[B]

I've gone mad. I'm daft.

[A]

I'm. And I'm in. Bloody O. Bloody.

[B]

Ow.

[A]

Yeah, but he's like, you know, if. If you said, like, I. I got fired and I lost my apartment and I haven't been able to find another job. It's just been a bit of bad luck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would be like, yeah, it's not bad luck. That's you. You're doing something wrong.

[B]

We've completely blended.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How someone's doing and who they are.

[A]

Yeah. You would definitely. I would. I would definitely go, well, you are. You can't get your. Together, like, do it, you know? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Which is what's funny. I never liked this movie, but there was the movie. What, Envy with Ben Stiller and Jack Black. It wasn't a great movie.

[A]

Yeah, I think I saw it.

[B]

But it's a dingus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Black, who invents a spray that makes dog disappear.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then it's like, what do we do when someone who you think is a loser stumbles into everything we respect, which is money, influence, power, all this stuff, and. And is hailed as a genius? You know, it's uncomfortable, so I thought that was very valid. And it goes with success as well. And I'm the beneficiary of this bias as people assume that I must have my shit together. Like, I've done well. I'm a comedian. Hey, look at me. And I Go ahead. And I accept that as real. I'm like, your respect of me is valid. You're right. I did it. I had tea stained maps with burnt edges and candlelight and I stayed up and I studied them. When really, and we've had this conversation before, how much the Fates. It's. When you put it that way, you're like, how much of that was the Fates? You're like, all of it. I mean, you showed up, but I see I'm having this resistance. I'm like, yeah, but I showed up. Yeah, but then the winds of the ocean pushed me and there were choices I made, but then there were really. It's pretty impersonal.

[A]

Right? And it's like specifically like all of us are sort of reacting to our wounds. Those things that you said that served us as kids and yours happens to be highly valued in this society where you get paid more.

[B]

And if we were living in Genghis Khan times and I was like, what if we crack him up with a joke? I mean, an arrow would just from my own people.

[A]

Or if you lived in these times and you were a woman who, her. Her defenses were to serve others and always put others first. So you became a nurse. You would be working all the time and getting paid, underpaid, you know, or.

[B]

A teacher or whatever it might be. So it's like success, like big time success, is the degree to which your childhood wounds, meaning your compulsions, the things that you have to do, like I had to do standup. And how much those compulsions line up with the needs of your current society.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because the thing that kept me going into the ocean, that was being pushed and swept and, oh, this chance thing here and there wasn't even me either. Meaning the fortune extends to the wound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was fortunate to be wounded in such a specific way that it ended up serving me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then there's certainly ways that it doesn't serve me and that I. That I'm still unpacking but like, success wise. And that's almost what he goes, you're not really chasing money. You're chasing the love and respect and the belonging.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then so this goes back to job Snob is when I. Because he said this, he's like, when you're at a party and you talk to somebody, the first question used to be, who are you? Like, where are you from?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who are your parents? Yeah, like, where do you hail from? What's your bloodline? Who are your people, man? Who are your people, man? Corn cob, pipe falling out of my bearded face. Who are your people, man? And now we don't give a no. And this is. This is one of those what. What is water moments. Was I. These, these talks that I've watched, several are helping me realize that I. I'm so indoctrinated into a thought system that I'm unconscious to it. But he says, you're at a party and you say, what do you do? Yeah, and by the way, I know. Lava lamp, black light poster. We're having like a freshman year college. Like, it's all about what you do, man. But that's fucking valid, right? And if what they do stinks, like, like I'll make it even more. More uncomfortable if I'm talking to somebody and they're unfulfilled and they're unfortunate and, like, things just aren't working, I. It's almost like it's contagious. I experienced this when I went. When my wife left me, my first wife. Obviously people didn't want to talk to me because I was unfortunate. I couldn't make it work. I remember I saw the movie Troy and Brad Pitt, who. I'm still mad about this. There's some joke at Brad. There's some joke in Troy about like, your wife left you. I'm sorry you couldn't satisfy your woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, like, is that what people are thinking? Is that what I would think?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, what are the assumptions that go with any misfortune? These were just two Rubik's cubes set to the wrong pattern, rolled into a. A dryer, put on spin site, whatever. I know that's a washer, but it's. It's put on delicate press, tossed around, and it didn't work. But then they go like, your dick's probably pretty small and you're probably a fucking asshole.

[A]

Well, we want to other the people because we can't stand the possibility that that could happen to us.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. So I am really getting in touch with how I think stupid is contagious. I think I'll be considered stupid by association. And that's embarrassing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also, like, people who have, like, bad ideas or like, from where I'm sitting, sometimes somebody that, like, let's say I struggle respecting. I hate admitting that. But let's say somebody that like their ideas. I'm like, they're probably not good ideas. They say it to me. And then I sometimes go, imagine if, like, James Bechara, the CEO of Magic Mind, very high functioning, brilliant, wonderful person And I think I've mentioned this before on the pod. I'll pretend James told me that idea. And then, and instantly the idea I start looking at it. It's like the prism's been turned. Same idea, but it's been turned. And now the lights are refracting on it in such a way that it looks beautiful, it looks possible, but these biases. But you're an unfortunate. Like we might as well be going around going, but the gods have scorned you, man. Look at your tattered rags.

[A]

Who are you? Your people.

[B]

Yeah. And again I say who are your people? But like we haven't changed. And now money is the blessing and status is the bl. These are the gods, obviously. Well, and I'm like, I'm a job snob and I don't like it.

[A]

But we, yeah, we corrected something that probably should have, that definitely should have been corrected. We just corrected it in the wrong direction. So to be at a party and say like who are your people? Men and judge. They were judging somebody's worth based on their bloodline if they were well bred. Like what a terrible term. Yeah, you're well bred. Like you're a dog. Yeah, exactly. So we were correcting that by being.

[B]

Like, well you know, I can see it the other way. It's like there's a lot of broken backedness or whatever. Like it's like, yeah, I'm not trying to make fun of anything but I feel like at that time there was so much going on genealogically that maybe I'm just trying to look at it from the other way.

[A]

You mean like incestual or. What do you mean?

[B]

I just mean it was a mess. I'm thinking of the dark ages and you finally meet somebody who's like erect, like standing up straight. She's well bred. You know what I mean? Like maybe that was more important than. I'm slowly backing away from this topic.

[A]

Yeah. Because it was definitely about what was available to people as far as resources and education and so it had nothing to do with their, their inherent DNA, which is what they thought it was. Yeah, like eugenics and all of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Kevin. Eugenics, yeah, that's exactly what I meant. But I'm losing it.

[B]

We've. We've fixed it, but over fixed it.

[A]

But yeah, so we were like, well it's not just like something you have no control over. Like your sense of worth isn't about who your parents are, it's about what you do, which is like a self step closer maybe. But then now we just gotten stuck in, like. So your whole worth is in what you produce and how successful you are at this specific game. Which, by the way, kind of changes based on region.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And. But if you have the skill sets to make it valuable. And I really participate in this, which really is. Is surprising because I think I used to be a snob about that. Like, be a little bit. Maybe in a defensive way. Be like. Well, that's just like men with their dicks out. Fight. Sword fighting with their dicks. Like. Like playing this dumb western game where they're just trying to, like, be better and better and better. But I can still, like. I can still. I can still. I get very bothered when people ask me what I do. And it's not because I think that's a stupid question, if I'm being honest. It's because I don't have a good answer. And I can feel and like, Val.

[B]

What you're saying makes me want to puke.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Because you are the jewel of the Nile. You are the onion ring in the bag of french fries. What the fuck? What a delight. You are a crisp, powder blue, pink sunset.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

And then my fucking. This is what I'm saying. So it's not just the dick measuring sword contest in it. To a certain sense. In a certain sense, I'm like a victim of this. Meaning. I didn't ask for this. It was given to me. And now if I met you and you weren't exactly what I wanted on the outside, wink, wink. Okay, then thank God you are, because my dumb fucking processing system would. You'd be like, I don't know. And I'd be like, loser. This is why. I think it's one of the reasons. Yeah.

[A]

So in that case, that is like our. Because our system also is like. Well, what women lack in success, they can make up their worth in how their bodies look.

[B]

I know. Listen to the sound of horror. The first draft of Simon and Garfunkel. The sound of.

[A]

But what I was gonna say is so. It is. It is. Oh, we had a dinner with. Two with. I think I can say this. Well, I won't get specific. We had a dinner with a director and his wife. A very successful director and his wife. It doesn't matter. You'll maybe figure it out. Or if you don't.

[B]

Oh, this wasn't recently.

[A]

No, this was recently. And his wife and I, I could tell, got into this sort of mode where we were both trying to prove to each other that we weren't just, like, accessories like, we were talking about our unique contributions to our husband's work, and then the things that we do on our own. And it was sort of this, like. Like, it was like. It's kind of heartbreaking. Like, it was like, I do this, and I also write my own stuff. Oh, yeah. I used to write this stuff, and I did. You know, like, it was just like us sort of being like, we have value. We're not just like these wives. And it's just so. It's. It's disgusting that that's what we've done to people and that we've done. We've done it to men.

[B]

And we're saying, don't throw us away.

[A]

Yeah. And we're saying, like, here, I can show you my resume of things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's where my worth lies.

[B]

But now you're competing in a. A rigged game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you never asked to be a part of.

[A]

I also have lately been finding. And this is really dysfunctional, that I am envious of people whose response to their trauma is being a workaholic. Like, you're not like this, but you do have sort of a responses in achieving. But, like, I listened to Selena Gomez on Smartless, and it is so lovely that she's, like, the most public person, and she's just. She gave an interview. Like, she wasn't. Like, she was. She was. They weren't even asking her about her mental illness, and she would bring it up. So she is. So she. I think she's doing a lot of good by bringing up, you know, her mental illness. And. And she said something about. She was like, I work a lot because. Because her. Her resume is insane. It's like, she is a Grammy Award winner, a SAG Award winner. She's. She owns her own business. She's like, you know, has the most followers on Instagram of anybody ever. It's like she's got the Western ideal of, like, perfect. Like, if it's a meritocracy, this is our queen. And. And she's like, I work because it keeps me from bad things, and that's what I have to do.

[B]

Well, that's what Elaine says as he goes, we are all addicts. It's something Richard Rohr says, too. It's like, because we'll busy ourselves with anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we don't have to be with ourselves.

[A]

Right, Exactly. And then we have a society where as long as you're busying yourself with work.

[B]

Work.

[A]

And become. You're most likely becoming more successful. And then we actually think that you are an incredibly healthy, happy. You should be a healthy, happy person because you're winning at this game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's got to be incredibly. I mean, this is no new idea. But no wonder we have people achieving their dreams and then being like, I'm so unhappy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing that you see Selena Gomez's success, and it sounds like it might be a little bit disheartening to you.

[A]

This is the other trick that you learned from him.

[B]

I'm hearing that you think I'm a. A circus pony. Find a way to be passive aggressive.

[A]

What did you say? Where you were like, right before we started this, where you're like, I. I'm an idiot. And I was like, I'm hearing that you think you're a piece of.

[B]

That's what I said.

[A]

I said.

[B]

You said that to me?

[A]

Y. Yeah. Like, you don't get it right. You make it even stronger.

[B]

Yes. That is hilarious. Cuz one of the other things that Elain said was that, like, we're not good at listening. And. And we. We've said this before. You know, your dad says, is this a feel it or a fix it? Which is nice. But Elain, I think, would take it one step further and be like, people don't ever really want advice. I. I mean, yeah, I struggle with that because I love advice, but I do want to be recognized first. So the thing that he said is when you're. The example that he gives is. Is a child on vacation, on holiday. And he's like, I hate this. This stinks. This place smells like poo. And then the mom is like, this is.

[A]

We're on holiday.

[B]

We're on holiday. Don't be ridiculous. You're having a great time.

[A]

Yeah, we're gonna have a great time. This. This costs a lot of money. That was so challenging to me because I think I really do that with Leela. And I've been in, like, such a crazy parenting phase where I've done a lot of solo parenting, and then she was out of school for two weeks, and I can just feel again, which.

[B]

Is why we haven't been doing pods. Come on. Two weeks off.

[A]

I know, but it's been more than that. But it's been because you were gone, too. You're.

[B]

Because I've been gone.

[A]

So we. I mean, I just am in a zone where I'm not parenting the way I want to parent because I'm exhausted. And even today, like, she's crying because she doesn't want to go to school. And I heard you say, like, the thing that we learned from Dr. Becky Kennedy, which is saying, like, yeah, I hear you. Something about school feels really tricky, which.

[B]

I got reinforced by Elaine because I. Alan. Because I said, it sounds like you're having a hard time going to school today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think with grownups more than five year olds, that's just like, a really beautiful thing to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, I'm sure whatever you're. I mean, I just are parenting in is. Is still just a Tetris.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Just a long piece right down the middle.

[A]

I just feel myself overriding her feelings about some. Like, before I even acknowledge, like, I'm like, no, no, this is gonna be great. We're do you know, like, we're trying them.

[B]

Optimism.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that's a big Alain thing too. He's like, the human animal needs grotesque optimism at all times.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. So, okay, on that vein, I had this parenting moment, which I felt really bad about. And then my friend Jen made me feel better. And I still am. Like, I don't know. And when I say right, I'm not sure. Like, there's not a right or wrong, but I don't know if this is the way I want a parent. I'm not sure, but. And then I do have more about Elaine that I want to say, but Leela was super whiny. For some reason, whenever we go to this one restaurant, she just, like, loses her. And she. We didn't get to sit at the table she wanted to sit at. So she. Because it was like a giant booth and there was only three of us, so she was, like, protesting sitting at that booth and would not get up and was. And we are. You and I already, like, moved to the other table. And we could just hear her being like, you know, like, whining for the table.

[B]

And this is when she wanted to sit at an eight top.

[A]

Yes. And so I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, all right, I have two narratives going on. I have Dr. Becky Kennedy being like, you should sit next to her and be like, hey, you really want to sit at this table? I hear you. Do you need help moving or whatever. And then I'm like, I hear other voices in my head being like, no, she needs to understand that we cannot behave this way. We can't just whine and, like, kick and stomp where wherever we are because we didn't get exactly what we wanted. And then I'm like, she's gonna become, like, an entitled kid who can't Handle any sort of disappointment. And she needs, like, a stern, like, a firm, backboned mother to be like. Like, this is unacceptable. You know? And I have those conflicting ideas in my head. And so, like, what came out was, like, leela, I know you really want to sit here, but you need to get up right now.

[B]

You did the. The PB and J in one jar.

[A]

I did.

[B]

You did the swirl.

[A]

Because, like, in my brain, I remember.

[B]

That moment, and I really liked it. And also, it's. It's just such a testament to having two people. You know, There should be more people. You should add friends. You know what I mean? Like, it takes so many people to raise a child.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And I happen to be rested and resourced and all those things, so I felt able to go soft. But I liked that you were.

[A]

But then I went. So I took her outside, and I did say, like, it still felt like it was a little all over the place. Like, I was sending mixed signals of, like, this is not happening. And I know. Oh, you're really. You know. But I was. I did say I was like, leela.

[B]

I don't see why it can't be both.

[A]

Yeah, I really want to sit there.

[B]

But that's not how we behave.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. When you say it, it sounds right. I guess I just want to be more fortified in whatever technique I'm doing as opposed to, in my mind, being like, is this one right? Or should I say this? Or what do I do? Is this, you know, and. But I. I did say I was like you. And this is the part I'm not sure about, but I was like. Like, you are making a choice right now to ruin the whole breakfast over a table, and instead, you can choose to, like, hold it tight in your fist and then, like, let it go. And then we'll eat pancakes and we'll play games, and it will be a great time. And then she, like, melted down and started crying and went, I saw.

[B]

I can't handle when she says, I'm sorry.

[A]

Figure it out, though.

[B]

That's cute. That.

[A]

And. And. But she was really crying, and then I, like, held her and was like, you're not bad, and mom is not mad. I did get frustrated, but I love you. And, like, you know, and then. And then I could feel her. So then she, like, did that thing where she was, like, bling and, like, happy and kind of almost overdoing it, where she's, like, grabbing my hand and we're running around, and she's like, I want to sit on mama's lap I want to do, you know, and, and I'm like, like, I don't know. Because to me that feels kind of like she's overriding her feelings to be. Become happy, to make me happy. But then I said that to our friend Jen and she was like, or did you make it clear that she could choose exactly what to focus on right now? And she made a choice to change her mood and become happy again, which is a skill that you want somebody to do.

[B]

It's what we do too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we hate it. You know, I always think about this in the movie Fight Club. I know you were thinking about Fight Club too. Always still mad at Brad for Troy, but Fight Club.

[A]

But that happened after he goes, we're.

[B]

A generation of people that were told we're going to be movie stars and celebrities and pop stars and we're going to be rich and famous and we're not. And we're pissed off about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think one of the reasons why that was so universal, universally true, even in a culture that isn't trying to be all Those things like 300 years ago, it's still true, is because we're like, we were told we were special and our feelings matter and our voice matters and it's not true and we're pissed off about it. Like, you know what I mean? So you're trying to infuse a little of the world's brokenness into your child's reality. Because now I'm hearing Rabbi Mordecai Finley, he told a story about kids jumping on the hoods of cars from car to car to car and they're denting the cars and he's like, I, I get scared for those kids because some, some grown ups say, what are you doing? Stop it. And some grown ups murder people. So you have to like realize that, that, you know, not everybody is going to be like, hey, big feelings.

[A]

Well, and also though, if you are, if you are living your life assuming everyone loves you the way your mother and father love you, that's how you make a narcissist. Really?

[B]

Well, it's interesting because he speaks about that directly about love and fame. Let's get to that. After the mid rolls, I think there's only, I don't know, one or two. So we'll be back in two minutes and I want to talk more about that because it's interesting. I don't think it's. He had something very interesting to say about spoiling and then, and then leading to like narcissus so we'll be right back. Pardon the interruption, weirdos. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Next Evo Naturals. You guys know the new year is the perfect time to move on from things that just aren't working in your life. And with Next Evo Natural CBD Products products oil based CBD can be one of those things that isn't working for you. Oil based CBD doesn't mix well with our water based body so you absorb as little as 6% 6% of the CBD that is on the label. But Nextevo Naturals. You know I love CBD but this is a company that really elevated it because they developed a clinically tested water soluble form of cbd. Water soluble which means their gummies and capsules are proven to work faster and absorb orb four times better than oil based products. So you need to go to nextevo.com and use promo code WEIRD for 25 off any order or up to 60 off as a new subscriber. I love their stress gummies. It's mixing adaptogens and CBD and CBD that you can feel and feel quickly so you can get that dose just right. The Ashwagandha in there lowers your stress, the CBD rounds it out and gives you a wonderful feeling of well being. Try their strongest gummy ever is new. The new Extra Strength Daily Wellness CBD gummies which the customers love. Or for for the all time bestsellers try my beloved Stress or their Sleep Sleep CBD Complex products. Find new ways to use CBD with a variety of convenient options including gummies, capsules and dissolvable powders which I've been known to put in my smoothies because I love it. Like I said, it gets into you four times better and you start feeling that absorption in about 10 minutes. So leave oil behind and start the year off with more effective and fast acting CBD from Nextevo Naturals. Get 25% off any order or up to 60% off as a new subscriber by using code Weird at Next Evo nextevo.com that's 25% off your order or up to 60% off a new subscription@next evo.com with promo code Weird. We're also brought to us by our friends at Ritual, the multivitamin and the probiotic that I take every single day. If supporting foundational health was a sport, you would want ritual on your team. They made Essential for Men, a multivitamin that's based solely on science and designed to help fill common nutrient gaps in the diet with 10 key nutrients. I can speak anecdotally. For me, I would get my blood work done at my physical every year. I had gaps. I took ritual. It filled those gaps. According to the cdc, fewer men than women meet the minimum daily intake recommendations for fruits and vegetables. And men are more likely to overvalue exercise and undervalue nutrition. We'll stop it. Enter Ritual, a multivitamin specifically scientifically developed to help men fill those nutrient gaps in their diet. 10 key nutrients in 2 delayed relapse CAP. Sorry, delayed release capsules. Which is key because I take it when I'm fasting and it doesn't upset my stomach. It even has a minty essence in every bottle. That makes taking your Maltese actually enjoyable. It's rigorously tested and validated non GMO vegan gluten and major allergen free, certified B corp and made traceable so you know where these nutrients are coming from. They are the industry leading sustainability standards. They're meeting the industry leading sustainable standards. It's a wonderful company and it's something that has absolutely helped my life. Essential for Men is a quality multivitamin from a company you can actually trust. Get 40% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com weird. This offer is only available through January 31st. Start Ritual or add Essential for Men to your subscription today. That's ritual.com/weird for 40 off. And we're back. Okay. So he says the way that you make a narcissist isn't by spoiling them. And he's talking about specifically in the first two years of their life.

[A]

Well, yeah, you can't spoil a baby is a thing that people say.

[B]

But I mean, people think a baby, you know, a year old, it's not a baby anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean some people, six months old is not a baby anymore. So there's different. But anyway, he was like, I think I, I'm, I'm trying my best. But he was talking about like a narcissist is somebody who's over correcting. It's like no one was paying attention to me. He's like, you won't see a lot of people that like received the got it loud and clear the message, you matter. We love you, we see you, we hear you, you're important. Yeah, that then spend the rest of their lives looking for that. And this was what was very significant to me. And again, with all love and respect to my folks, it's like he said that the marker for A child that was raised securely is that they don't have any desire to be famous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that might have been why Neil sent it to me. I think Neil sent it to me because that's the kind of stuff we talk about all the time. But when I heard that, you think I'd feel bad that I was like, oh, and here I've spent 44 years trying to be famous. And even when I was a child, you know, the SNL curtain called Dream is one of my oldest dreams, is like waving goodnight at SNL or being in a parking lot and thinking of the movies that I could shoot there and the stories that I could tell. And as soon as I saw a play, I'm writing a play and just trying to be famous. Like, make no mistake. Not because of a love of the theater, but so everyone could see how brilliant I am and tell me so. Okay. Why I wasn't disturbed by that finger pointing at me. Was it actually made. It released the tension. I was like, oh, I'm not insane. I'm not making this up. There was something chunky in the funky.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But, like, I think so much of my life is going like, shut up. Everything was fine. And it's like, really? Yeah. A lot of times. Yeah. As much as I can be very green lighting to myself when it comes to, like, that was hard. I think it's one of the reasons why I don't remember huge swaths of my childhood. It's just not convenient.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay, then. So, like, studying the Big Bang. We can't see the Big Bang, but we can study the radiation that's echoing from the Big Bang. And that's where that. You know, I'm always saying that that's where that theory comes from. It's not just an idea. There's evidence of a galactic explosion. So I'm going like, oh, now I can study the radiation and that'll take me back. And that's his whole thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is he's like, I have the symptom of someone who didn't feel safe, seen. Whatever. And then, of course, I learned, you know, sparkle and shine, and then you'll get what you need. I'm sort of. I wouldn't say I'm disturbed, but I'm aware that it might be disturbing just how much I was learning to survive, how to game people. I said this on the podcast before, but like my brother said, pete, you've been performing since you were 10 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. And that was a weird skill to Learn. And it served me well.

[A]

It did. Yeah.

[B]

I remember when I pitched crashing to Judd, I was in full child like glory. Like, I brought out the Golden Pony. And that doesn't mean I was juggling and tap dancing. It was so different. It was like a quiet. It was like hyper. Listening to him. But not too much. Not too much. Don't be needy. Like, the levels. It's like one of those stereos that has all the levels. I had all those levels just right. And mastering them through life to charm. Like a politician. I love the scene. There's a Matt Damon movie where he plays a politician and he's giving a speech. Classic kind of trope. He snaps and he starts talking to them real. The people he's like. And he holds up his shoe and he goes, did you know we had a focus group determine that this is the right amount of scuff to have on my shoe? Because you don't want them to be too polished. That looks. That looks like you're a fancy person. You don't want them to be too dirty. That looks like you're uncaring about your appearance. But a little bit of scuff looks like you get your hands dirty, but you're also classy. And I was like, my phone's ringing. Oh, no, my phone's ringing. And the problem is, then I'm not comfortable with my own vulnerability. I'm not comfortable with my own feelings. And then when I go out into the world and meet all these jack holes, I'm joking, but, like, I see all these people who haven't learned the kind of maddening wizard alchemy of presenting yourself in such a way, and they're just telling me that they're, like, unsatisfied or they're depressed or they're weak or they've been crying a lot lately. And look, look. Highest self Pete is there for that. Highest self. Pete is often the one hosting the podcast. I love him. I'm trying to bring him out as much as possible. But if I'm just at a dinner party, sometimes I'm going like, what? What is this? And he taught. Elaine talks about this. The successful people become so invulnerable, and then they start losing friends. They don't have friends because they don't know how to be vulnerable, and they don't know how to tolerate someone else's vulnerability, which is also. Sorry, I'm on a tear here. But like he says, love is a. Is a skill that needs to be practiced. And love isn't just enjoying what's good about a person. It's tolerating what's horrible about them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And recognizing what's ambivalent about them. Like you're working with all of it.

[A]

Right. And I, I really found that interesting because he was like. He talks about the. That we're still for the last. Last you know, 250 years and currently we're in the like romantic sort of period of thinking of love. So. And one of those ideas is that you should love every single. Per. Every single thing about the person that you're with. And he's like do any of us really be. Deserve to be loved for the whole. That we like? The whole of us?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then I guess it's like Plato came up with the idea of like love is actually a classroom where you help each other through spirit of generosity and kindness. Not by like the sandpaper method.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But become the best versions of. Of themselves. So it's actually very loving to say like hey I notice you do this.

[B]

They're not being attacked. They're trying to help you.

[A]

Yes. And I think this is good that that is uniquely challenging to our way of loving.

[B]

You and I.

[A]

Yes. Because we are such sweeties to each other.

[B]

I know. And I tell the story about being bit by the scorpion and I go. I talked to my wife very sweetly but I had to use my big boy voice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like. I didn't even know I had one. But I was like Valerie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even that was weird for me. But I thought I was dying.

[A]

Yeah. And we're so you know. And then attachment there theory which he talks about is that really when we are on a date. Like a first date with someone we are looking at if we can perpetuate the way we were taught to be loved.

[B]

And with this person will they wound me the way that I'm familiar.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And can't find for us?

[A]

I think. I don't know.

[B]

I'm not saying that to virtue signal. I'm saying I feel like I had two marriages. The first one I was doing that. The second one I was going like peppermint fountain. I just want good. But he would laugh at this. I'm sure he would.

[A]

I agree. And I think there probably is a way. Maybe I. I don't know it either. Right off the top of my head. In my first marriage I definitely found that too. The way to wound me in a familiar way. But I will say I think we found. So we had. You had a combination of like an over adoring parent. And then a parent that you had to kind of prove yourself.

[B]

I would step that out these days, the over adoring part. But yes, keep going.

[A]

And I had. Both of my parents were sort of both of those things. Like it was like very over adoring and kind and sweet. But underneath there was a whole other reality happening where I felt like, isn't.

[B]

This the plot of every horror movie?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Looks like a nice house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't go in the basement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're all on the edge of our seat because we know there's something rotten at the Johnson house.

[A]

Yeah. It's bodies in the basement. I mean it's like a real thing that happens. That's a perfect metaphor for what often happens in a house. And. And it. My parents did love me and were incredibly affectionate, but there were very subtle. This is so common. I mean, and everybody did the best they could, but they were very subtle agreements that I were. I was taught to make that were unspoken. But I learned by example. And like, in order to be accepted in this reality, we agree to do these things.

[B]

Which is why meeting another person's parents and being folded into their family can be so weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the exact feeling of watching a play and you're in the audience and then they tap you on the shoulder and they go, you're in the play now and you don't to have. Have the script. And they're like, you know, everyone's overlooking a behavior and you're like, what's going on here? And everyone goes, no, no, no, no. Yeah. The stage.

[A]

It really is like, but that door.

[B]

Yeah, your line is, there's no door here. That's your line.

[A]

Yeah, that's a really good idea for a play that maybe already exists is.

[B]

It's like you're in it.

[A]

Well, it's. Yeah. And. Or I was going to say it's like a boyfriend or whatever, a partner going to the family's house and there's like a very big obvious door and. But everybody's denying that a door even exists. And they're like, but what's behind the door?

[B]

I'm not saying it's obvious. I'm saying it's so it exists. Matt Johnson did the podcast. It hasn't come out yet. He directed BlackBerry and Nirvana, the band, the show. It's incredible. In fact, to prepare for that episode, go on, go online and can find Nirvana, the band, the show. It's incredible. I love it so much. And watch BlackBerry. But he was saying good storytelling is surprising, yet Inevitable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the inevitable part. You know what I mean? And it is. We do get tricked by it every time we're like, what?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Bodies in the basement.

[A]

Well, that is.

[B]

It has to be inevitable.

[A]

That's right. And that's why when you hear a good idea, you're like, doesn't that already exist? Because it seems so obvious.

[B]

Well, you can't. You can't open in that play. You can't open the door. And it's a birthday party.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No one would buy it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this is what is happening when you watch a bad movie, to use Alexander Shia's language, it's like. It's not universally true. That's not the way energy moves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We have the upstairs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is another. Sorry, I have another Alain point, but go on.

[A]

Well, I just was gonna say, I think that we have. You know, I. Last Christmas, I think we talked about this. There was like a. I. I sort of freaked out a bit because there were ways that it seemed like you were similar to my dad. And I thought, oh, no.

[B]

Last Christmas.

[A]

Yeah. And I thought, oh, no, did I marry my dad? And I said that to my therapist and she was like, no, you did exactly what you should do, which is you found somebody who has enough. Enough similarities but is far healthier about it so that you can play out the scenarios with a healthier resolution. And Elaine said the exact same thing.

[B]

And I can see that here. Meaning my overly cursory understanding of my mother was over loving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't really feel like that was true. It was a bit more complicated.

[A]

It was. You had to pay a high price.

[B]

There was a different negotiation happening. And I say this with all love and respect, but it was like, you can help me. You can. You'll save me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I'm like, living with buckets of guilt every moment, and this is reinforced. Why aren't you coming? Why aren't you. Why aren't you here? Why don't I just live in your bed? Like, why? It's like, ah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, the movie Beau is Afraid, which is about my favorite movie of last year, the symbol for his mother is water. And we've talked about that seeping. And there's a scene where he's always like, this is Joaquin Phoenix playing Beau. There's a scene where he's in his kitchen and he forgot that the tub is running. So it's love. It's good. But then it overflows. And now he's standing in his living Room. And the water's creeping towards him. Of fucking course, Pete.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And God bless the artists and the painters and the poets and the filmmakers. I'm like. I flatter myself by being like, my comedy's talking about real stuff. And I'm like. Like, some people are. I'm digging with a spoon. They're digging with one of those, you know, crane diggers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're going so deep that people can't even handle it sometimes.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we've definitely found that in each other. The sort of, like, you'll be affectionate to me in the way that I am. Have grown accustomed to.

[B]

Yeah. The groove. The groove in my brain.

[A]

And what we have to make sure we don't. That we always look at is the underside of that and making sure that we're not perpetuating that part where it's like, we're affectionate at the cost of not looking at any sort of, you know, like, the uncomfortable parts of our relationship.

[B]

Yes. I heard everything. You know, I was excited to say something.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I want you to know I heard you, and I was here for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's Star Wars. It's the Death Star. The Death Star is like a brain. It's like your brain. You can't shoot at it from the outside. That's relationships that you don't relate to. You need someone who can go into the groove, get into the canyon of your brain. So you. Val. Your wheels fit perfectly on the track of my dysfunctional understanding of love. And then you flew in it and you shot two little torpedoes down the hole and you blew it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's fucking emotional. That's. Yeah, it's really.

[A]

That is beautiful.

[B]

But it wouldn't have worked if you were just shooting at the Death Star from space.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You got to get in there. And to get in there, you need to be familiar and broken in a similar way to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He says that over and over. He's like, when you go on a date and you're like, I just didn't feel the spark. He's like, what you're really saying is, I don't recognize the. The torture.

[A]

Yeah. That I associate with love. Because your first. For most of us, our first associations with love came with some underbelly, some sort of cost and some sort of suffering.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, tied to it. So we're. We mix those two up. I love that image. And I also think we should. We both need to be careful to not think, like. And then we did it. And now we're good forever.

[B]

No, that's what it's like.

[A]

It's like that's probably something that actively needs to keep happening.

[B]

Well, you read me that thing about sex. He's interested in sex too. And sometimes I'm like, why don't you and I have. We do have sex. We're not constantly having sex. I'm not even saying. That's not even on my list of goals.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I am interested in psychologically what's going on here.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

And I know my water seeping. It's almost like this. I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable, but it's almost like I don't feel liberated necessarily to constantly be sharing myself in that very vulnerable way. And sometimes I am, but sometimes I need to, like, hinge the desire for vulnerable, melting identity, dissolving intimacy. I have to have. Hook it up to a cruder engine like horniness or like a desire to. It usually comes from an overflow of energy, positive energy. Like I've been killing it in my life and now I feel virile. But that's like a very cheap. It's not cheap. It's just not the most honest sex. It's like an extension of success, of succeeding. It's an expression of. My week has been going well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I had good shows. I. We got a. Whatever. This, this, this. And now I'm like, I. I am worthy. And now I can have sex.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I'm. I'm more interested in the. In the small sex. In the, in the, like, the. The mo. The humble sex of like, I'd like to. So he talks a lot about that, and I'm very curious. We haven't. You and I haven't unpacked this. But I don't take our relationship, as glorious as it is, as a foregone conclusion. In fact, I think that's the worst thing you can do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm. I'm really resonating with it when he says that people stop having sex. And this is all sort of unconscious and child self stuff because there's. There's built up resentment again. I don't, I don't want you to think I'm. No, you know, I'm not giving you a PowerPoint talk where I'm like. And this is where I tell you this is what's happening. I'm very interested in exploring. He says, what's happening is the reason we don't tell each other why something you did annoyed me is because it's so embarrassing. He's like, and the reason it's embarrassing is it's because you're five years old. You're four years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're a four year old. And I'm gonna tell you that like we talked about on the podcast, like at a dinner, you ignored me. And like, if you watch the film of it, you didn't ignore me. But the little boy in me just wasn't getting enough. You weren't picking me up or holding me or laughing. I, I actually, here's a good one. I don't like when you laugh at other people. That is embarrassing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I hate telling you this, but that's, he says, that's the work. I don't, I don't want you intellectually grown, 44 year old Pete.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wants you to laugh at everybody.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I listen to the Weezer song. I want a girl who laughs at no one else. And I'm like, yeah, that's an honest child. That's a four year old song. And there's a four year old in me. And he says when we, he actually had a really interesting point that you and I do, which he's like, the way to address these things is through teasing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, if you can joke about it.

[A]

He liked that. He said, that's something that's so beautiful when someone, when a partner teases another person because they go from saying it changes it from going, you're an idiot to you're a lovable idiot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is what all of us are.

[B]

Which you call me a goon all the time. I love it. I will say that finding the right language to tease a person and making sure you speak the same humor language is like cutting the right wire on a bomb.

[A]

And that there's a tricky, thick foundation of love and safety there.

[B]

And you and I've had relationships where there's teasing and I'm like, like you because I earned. We don't even like each other and now you're teasing me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You and I like each other. We love each other. And you call me a goon or, or, you know, and we do a lot of, not to flatter, but like, we do a lot of the things, like. Yeah, he's, he's like, what's key in friendships relationships is to admit how you're mad. And I was like, oh my God, I did give us a gold star on that. I was like, yeah, we're most of our relationship. Relationship is not resisting, but conceding. This is how I'm crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we went to that game night the other night with some friends, and I had a good time, but I was kind of quiet. And I realized, yeah, the pat. The previous two nights, I had been doing shows. And that just does something strange to me. We call it coyote mode. So I'm in coyote mode. I'm looking for patterns. That's what comedy is, patterns. Who's safe? Who's unsafe? What's my role? And stand up is a delight for a coyote. Because it's like, I will speak, they will laugh. At the end, they'll clap. I'll walk off. I'll go in this little room, I'll eat the fucking thing. I'll go and do it again, and then I'll drive home. It's the same on a film set. I'll stand here, the light will be there, the camera will be there. I'll say this. It's wonderful for a coyote. And then I get back into the subtle, weird mishmash of colors of reality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where someone. I also liken it to a video game. In a video game, if you go down a hallway, there's probably something there in life, you go down a hallway, you're looking for the bathroom, and there's just a plant. Like, you just found a plant. And you're like, what is this?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That's life. Now I'm at a dinner party, and instead of going, I know how to get laughs out of this person. I know how to win the situation. I'm just going like, oh, this is a totally different game. Now I'm eating with chopsticks, and I. I was just scooping ice cream. And now it's much more subtle. But after that situation, instead of you being like, hey, did you have fun? And I'm like, what? Didn't I seem like I was having fun? Because I did. But I'm like, I know what you're picking up on. And here's how I'm mad. I get into a mode without. I'll. I'll make a sports analogy. If someone's playing a lot of football games and Tom Brady goes home, he'll probably have a hard time. I made myself Tom Brady. He'll have a hard time just sitting by the fire because he'll be thinking, like, who's open, open? Like, who do I throw this to? And you're like, no, Tom, that's a hoagie. Yeah, don't throw the hoagie.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, like, we're very good at that.

[A]

I agree. And I also have a different slight alteration on my understanding what was happening at that party. Which you're not attacking me right now. No, I was gonna say, which I think can help us offer even more compassion to you, which is, you know, I. I believe that you're. You have a little developmental trauma in just like a cute little dose of developmental trauma in the I exist mode. We've talked about this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. So it's like all children need to know three things. I exist, my needs are met or my needs matter, and I am loved. And your. Your parents did the best they could, but they were kind of so involved in their own things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That you didn't really get. Your existence didn't get acknowledged in the way that it needed to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cut to. You stand on a stage in a spotlight with the only person with the microphone in a profession where your existence has to be confirmed every 10 seconds. Five by. By five.

[B]

Much better than 10.

[A]

I'm sorry. Yeah. Five seconds.

[B]

Look at the last per minute.

[A]

I know. Yeah. No, but you're right. With like a constant rolling of laughter.

[B]

And if I get off stage and it wasn't a constant rolling of laughter, I'll be like, that was a bad show. And you're like, they laughed at every.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, but it wasn't constant.

[A]

Rolling and it wasn't enough to confirm my existence. The stakes are actually very, very hot.

[B]

Yeah. When I get off stage and it's bad, I go, they didn't see me and they didn't care about me.

[A]

And they were.

[B]

I always say this. I go, they were looking at me like, why are you telling me this? And I'm like, no, you're supposed to care.

[A]

Yeah. And you might even feel like aggressive, like be mad at the audience. This audience. Exactly. That's just your protector.

[B]

I'm just heartbroken.

[A]

So then when you're. So then you go from that high of your most tender wound being addressed in a way that you've devised feels appropriate and can kind of keep it to, like, now you're just a guy in a room with a bunch of other people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And your wife, who all also. You. I was gonna say use, but you don't use. But is your other constant confirmation that you exist? No.

[B]

You're the audience I live with.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, great.

[B]

That sounds weird. But like, you. You're a real pure three dimensional version of my medicine.

[A]

Sure. And I am. I'm even like sitting. I thought about this later. I'm sitting almost with my back towards you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like talking to my friend. And giving her.

[B]

You're giving them my.

[A]

But I wasn't really even. I was giving her that. But I was also, like, getting. It was reciprocated. It wasn't like I.

[B]

Well, the reason I call you a love genius is you're so good at not just loving me, but you just love. You love. I'm so impressed with it. And you. You don't just love, you appreciate. And it's not fake. You're laughing to tears at something that I'm. When I'm in that state, I'll be like, And I'm not even directing it. I'm still feeling a little vulnerable for saying I don't like when you laugh at other people. Of course I do.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I'm trying to give voice to a petulant.

[A]

It's a part. It's just a part. Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Of course I want you to laugh at everybody. I'm not possessive in that way, but there is a part of me that is. But, like, it often comes down to envy. I'm like, look at the abandon. And I've told you this many times when we were talking yesterday, when I take mushrooms or ketamine or something, the first thing that happens is that protector. He's the first thing that gets high and he goes away. And then I'm just like, I could fall in love with, you know, the guy ripping my ticket at the movie theater.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just blown. And you're able to do that most of the time.

[A]

Well, I also think, though, that's tied to. Well, first, let me just say the part of you that is challenged when I'm laughing at other people only comes out when you are not being. When your existence isn't being confirmed by something else. Else. Meaning, like at our Christmas party, I. I had a moment where I was like, oh, I. Pete's been in the entirely other room and I haven't checked in with him. And that's like, our agreement is that when we're in settings like that, I just do little check ins with you so that I don't abandon and ignore you like I wanted to do. Yeah, but it didn't matter because you had Andrew Santino and Lara Bytes and other friends, sort of where you were all. And this is what friendship is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All confirming each other's existence. So I didn't need to do it. And. But when that's not happening, understandably, I'm like, laughter specifically is one of the ways that I confirm your existence. And when I'm doing that for someone Else. Yeah, it makes sense that that sort of tender baby parts. Good is really like, hey, my mommy is like, well, she's breastfeeding someone. I was gonna say breastfeeding, but I just thought it was gross. But it's not gross. Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I've gotten and shared on this podcast before glimpses at my inner toddler. And he's fucking furious. Yeah, he's really. Well, can't handle it. That's why I say it all the time on the podcast when I'm talking to other addicts. I'm like, alcohol is the only thing that gave me as much attention as I want from the world. You want more? Have more food, too. You want more. Have more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're just like, oh, I'll just keep going. And I decide it's like eating laughter or drinking laughter. A lot of people don't know what I'm talking about. That's happened twice recently. Steve O. Had no idea what the fuck I was talking about. Somebody else. I can't remember who, but I'm like, oh, that's not every addict. I'm.

[A]

I'm like, well, sure, there's gonna be different motivations.

[B]

I want to hold. I want to have the spoon in my hand.

[A]

But I also was gonna say, oh, going back to the, like, my ability to love and appreciate people, first of all, it isn't everybody, but I can't. I. I do think oftentimes that comes from an effortless, pure place. But I also think just as many times, it touches my wound. Like, one of the ways that I feel, feel safe is I can understand anyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You give me a person, I'll climb inside there until I know exactly who they are and what they need. And then that way I can mirror that back to them so that they like me. So that's why, like, yesterday, we were watching a Neil Breen movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I kind of said this. Yeah. Neil Breen makes. Makes terrible movies. And. And I was like, I actually don't really enjoy. Like, I think it's funny and it's fun for a short stint, but it does make me uncomfortable because I cannot understand what this person is thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, like, don't understand this person. And of course, there are plenty of people on this planet that that's true for. I just cultivate a life where I don't have those people in my world because it's so upsetting to my nervous system that, like, I wouldn't even know how to begin to talk to that person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And also A lot of my self worth and my self esteem even is tied in like being able to achieve that. Like I can achieve making anyone feel good.

[B]

That's funny. That's another thing that annoys four year old Pete. So we were having a different hang and this is not, you know, the spirit of this is that you'll start mirroring someone else so hard you'll start betraying yourself. So I'll make it a fake example because I don't want to out anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you'll be talking to a new friend and the new friend will be like, three times a year I go to Slovenia and I pick turnips. And they go, you should come. And you'll say, I'd love to go to Slovenia.

[A]

I've always wanted to go.

[B]

And I'm sitting there going, and this is how we help each other. I'm, you know, I help you draft texts and stuff. Sometimes you help me draft text too. But it's like you just don't say that.

[A]

Yeah. That's not true.

[B]

And then that can start making me go like, is she just turnip picking with Slovenia with me? You know, it calls the question, like, wait, what's happening? Am I just talking to an echo chamber? Does she.

[A]

Yeah. Where is she? Where's the person? Sure.

[B]

She'll pick turnip.

[A]

What is that? What is that?

[B]

Gardeners.

[A]

Oh, it's coming from there.

[B]

Oh, it's. It's the heat. If you open that, it's through the door. If you open.

[A]

Sounds like the world's longest part.

[B]

I do. That happened to me once when I was in here.

[A]

Here.

[B]

It's. It's because there's a big decorative.

[A]

It really sounded like a ghost. Just chose that moment to rip the longest fart, which was so. Would have been a great moment. Okay.

[B]

Anyway, I don't want to keep. No, no, no, no.

[A]

But I do think that is.

[B]

But that. That is me. The love skill. I. I'm tolerating something that I know is a shortcoming.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

For you. Which is you will mirror someone to the point where you vanish.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You'll tell them you love baklava. You will tell them that you hate you. You don't like Nora Ephron.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because you'll find the part of you that's like. Yeah, it's a little pretentious.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Even though I know you love Nora Ephron.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then I'm like, I start. Yeah, that, that's.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't have any more thoughts on that.

[A]

And that was also a perfect example when I did do something very similar to that example of, like, you, like, teased me for it later. And it was really funny. And I, like, you made me laugh.

[B]

Really hard at that part.

[A]

I'm like, I'm so full of, like.

[B]

How that's how you're mad.

[A]

Yeah. And that's how I met.

[B]

I teased you right away, too, as soon as we were alone.

[A]

And it was so gentle. It didn't feel challenging. It was like, that's so funny. I'm. I'm such a dickhead.

[B]

I don't. I don't mean to pat ourselves on the back, but to me, keeping the windows unlocked and the doors open and everything is just everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, I know I have my things and. And you tease them and I hear it. I don't know. I never had a psychotherapist confirm what I thought to be true, which. And it's what I'm doing on stage, too. I'm telling these stories where I'm, like, teasing my own bad decisions.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. That's one of the reasons I knew my therapist was right for me, was that she quickly was like, these things, like, you. If you can find a place where you're honestly laughing at it, it's like the most healing thing. And sometimes the only thing to do is laugh at the absurdity of it. And he. Elaine, really confirmed that in the sex thing, going back to that, where the guy was sort of like, like, what do you do then? Like, how do you. How do you keep a sexual, healthy, romantic relationship? And he said, like, I noticed that you're kind of smiling as you say that. And I think that's really important. Is like, all of the most complex.

[B]

Note of that moment, too.

[A]

Yeah. All of the most complex issues. You need a little bit of, like, levity and like, oh, my God, here we are.

[B]

Just like, I think this is what roasts are. I know best.

[A]

Especially when it comes to sex, though. I think having a levity and a sense of humor and knowing, like, this. Another thing my therapist says is she's like, sex is not everything. Like, it is important, but we think that it is.

[B]

Well, they made everything. They made that point in the podcast as well, that sex is just a vehicle for intimacy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you and I have said that we're having sex in quotes all the time. There's lots of. Of different kinds of intimacy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We also have regular sex.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I have to say that.

[A]

Right. And then it is also. He confirmed the sort of Like Esther Perel thing of like, you know, actually the guy who interviewed him was bringing up that sex can be on a completely polar opposite. Like in, in. In far. As far as what it requires as like love, romantic love. Because romantic love, you merge with somebody and you are, you know, like so close and so intimate and in sweatpants and kind of familial. And then you're trying to also like bone that person. It can feel very weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. And that's something that I think we. That's been coming up a lot for me lately because I'm like, that is. That is an area that we got to keep an eye on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we are so close and like such good friends.

[B]

Yeah. But we've been doing a good job not to over share. But our sex has been getting more compartmentalized from the rest of our life. Meaning there's like a different sex. Pete and Val.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That comes out in that way. And it's a little bit different. I. I know. I feel so much more, in a good way, like an animal or like you could say like a man, I suppose. I don't really like that language, but I feel. I feel like I'm my body and you're your body and there's something. It's becoming more and more of a safe place to be. Like this is the sex place. Like, whereas a lot of my life I've had to like bring. And there's nothing wrong with this. We do this too. But like bring laughter and joking into the sex. And to keep reminding you that I'm not a werewolf. You know what I mean? And that's great. In our space, we still have of real time check ins. This sounds like we're doing really weird stuff, but it's like just like. Is this okay? Are you okay? Like that's all there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm being a grown up. I think that's what it is. I feel like a grown up.

[A]

Yes. I think that's important. Yeah. No, and I think that is a good shift. And I also think. I don't know, I. Not again, not to overshare. I think that's like a necessary step towards like we don't have to be sweetie petites all the time, like the scorpion. But also we don't have to role play that we're someone else entirely either.

[B]

Yeah. You know, that's what, that's what makes it so sacred is I still felt like me. And that was the other thing I was gonna say. I have two things I want to say. He talks about the. Richard Roy talks about the true self, meaning your soul and your false self, meaning your ego. Elaine talks about the true self being what you really want and your false self being like you at a party. Being like, you work in finance. That's very interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's fine. Meaning you need bullshit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then he goes, the tension builds up when you never have a place to let your true self out. Sex can be one of those places. But for me, comedy, obviously, is one of those places. And. And to have candid, real conversations with you where. Where I'm like, I don't like that person, or, I don't like this restaurant, whatever it is. But, like, I can unfilter. He says, let it romp. Like, you need to let your true self romp. I was like, oh, my God. That's what Bill Burr is doing. That's why I can watch Bill do such a, you know, like an objectively kind of offensive joke. And I'm like, he's. He's letting out the child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's like, I know this isn't right, but I don't like that. The first lady. Why do we respect her or whatever it is, but he is doing something that's very healthy and good, even if the content of it can be, you know, can rub people the wrong way. I completely understand that. Because that's what your true self is. Is. Is the thing that if you let everybody see it, but we all have one. We all have a true self.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting to look at true self that way, because I would also say that's shadow, but maybe your true self is. Includes your shadow. It's like your whole self shadow, and non shadow, the other.

[B]

Oh, go ahead.

[A]

No, go ahead.

[B]

Well, we can wrap. We've been going quite a while.

[A]

Yeesh.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We needed to. We had a lot to get to go.

[B]

I know, but the other thing. So we played this game at this game night with some friends, which was delightful. Where we play. It was like telephone, but you do the drawings.

[A]

Telestrations.

[B]

Telestrations. So you get a clue. It's ceiling fan. Then you draw a ceiling fan. You pass it to the next person. I'm explaining it pretty well. It took us about nine hours to understand it.

[A]

And notice how upset I got.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That, my friend, there's your true self. And I got upset because I couldn't understand it.

[B]

Yeah, there's your thing.

[A]

I'm like, that's. This defies everything I know about myself.

[B]

So I get a clue. Ceiling fan. I draw it. I pass it to the person on my left. They see my drawing, they guess what it is, and they write what it is. Then they pass it, and then the next person sees the guess and they draw that, and the next person writes their guess on that. So that's how it goes. Every so much was happening in that game that is applying to what we're talking about, and it touches on what I envy about you, which is another kind of irritation, by the way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm saying that. Excited.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, me envying you is another kind of unconscious tension that can lead to not wanting to have sex. Because I'm annoyed with you. I'm not. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

It's so interesting, though, because that almost contradicts Esther Perel, which I actually kind of feel to be more true. You should have tension. And I. I find that to be true. I actually am more attracted to you when I'm kind of mad.

[B]

Like, I see that.

[A]

Like, how you were at that during that game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were like, I. I can get. I can get frustrated. Or the part of me that just wants everybody to get along so I can feel safe.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

You're so aggressive during games, and you're, like, chastising people and yelling at them, and. And I hate it. It.

[B]

There you go. Oh, you got one on the board. And then I'm aware that you don't like it, which is why after the party, I was like, I just want you to know I can control that. So I'm saying.

[A]

But even that is kind of like, I could stop, and I won't.

[B]

And I think because I'm at a party and I don't know what to do, and I'm like, oh, now we're playing a game. I'll be the guy that takes it seriously and yells at people.

[A]

Yeah. You're taking a role because that makes it fun. I think that makes sense for you. I don't know.

[B]

I disagree.

[A]

It probably. It probably.

[B]

I disagree with you because. Okay, well, see, this is what I'm saying. Everything was in this game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe it doesn't make it fun for you. And I apologize. And I. It sounds like you're challenged by the part of me that is very serious about games. I want action. I want the. I want to fucking get. Rotating, get. Get on that timer.

[A]

It's not that.

[B]

Drinking and they're stoned. I'm like, why aren't you running the timer? Like. And then I love the bad drawings, but, like, what's funny is because, again, it's all in this game. I draw. My clue is bedbug. I draw a perfect bed. I'm a good cartoonist.

[A]

Yeah, you are.

[B]

And I draw a perfect bed. And I draw a magnifying glass. A big one. I draw a beam pointing to the bed from the glass.

[A]

It was a nice touch.

[B]

And in the magnifying glass, there's a small bug. Bedbug is the clue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I pass it to my left. Craft all love and respect. He guesses might. And I just want to burn the house down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I also think it's funny that I'm like the Joe derosa of the group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But what's funny is.

[A]

And it. And it is. If it was somebody else, you would like.

[B]

Yes. But you have, like, this responsibility.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You brought Joe derosa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one wants to bring Joe derosa. You just want him to be there.

[A]

You want to have Joe Robin Rosa at your party. You do not want to be. Don't be the guy got out of the car.

[B]

This is my fault with Joe. But I love Joe Derosa and I.

[A]

Love being Joe and I love it when Joe Derosa.

[B]

But you do have a certain responsibility over me. And I'm trying to say, like, don't let me.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Let me be a man.

[A]

And that is true.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's funny is I want when the. When the. At the end, you reveal everyone's drawing. And like, a win, I suppose would be. It's not. But I'm like, a win would be. The clue is bedbugs. The drawing is bedbugs. The next guy gets bedbugs. Everyone gets bedbugs. The last card is bedbugs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I fucking nailed it. And not only did I nail it, I showed you what you. Oh. You didn't see what to draw. But anyway, that to me, and this is embarrassing to admit, I want everyone to be like, that was the perfect bedbug drawing.

[A]

Because then you exist.

[B]

Because then I exist.

[A]

We understood you perfectly.

[B]

I'm shiny. Exactly. It's an understanding game. And not only was I not stupid, I was brilliant. And I love all of this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You. And I think I'm saying this for real. I like my role in this game. I envy your role. You love the bad drawings.

[A]

You want the bad drawings. It's way funnier.

[B]

The makers of the game know that it's the bad drawings things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the mistakes. Telephone isn't fun. If you say bedbug and then the last person says bedbug.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I really am coming at reality from a place where I'm like, we should say bedbug. And it should be bedbug.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's a learning moment from, like, we need the very stone person. We need the guy to guess. Might.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We just do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we need it to get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm going like, it shouldn't be fucked because my drawing was perfect. He actually talked about how rage is optimism.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Is. I'm thinking that my drawing was perfect. I'm optimistic that it will work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then it doesn't. And then I'm. I have rage. It's like pretend rage. He quoted a therapist that said Mickey Mouse or Walt Disney was the most dangerous person in America because he's showing people what could be a utopia. And then you leave the park, and it's not that way. Or at the park, it's not that way. And it leads to all this unmitigated rage.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

How do you mitigate rage? But anyway, you. What was the one that turned into 9 11?

[A]

Airport.

[B]

Okay. So someone draws an airport. And here I am. I'm like a lawyer. He drew a great airport. He drew an air control tower.

[A]

It had antennas on it, but it looked like fire.

[B]

He didn't draw it well. But you're also like, yeah, okay, I think. And then the next person drew. The funniest person in the game drew. So it's a tower. It's a plane on the ground.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Next to an air control tower. They draw the world trade.

[A]

No, they didn't draw it. So the Next person said 9 11, question mark.

[B]

Right. And which is.

[A]

Which is so funny because of course that's not.

[B]

You thought one of these cards for a family friendly game said 9 11?

[A]

And the answer is no, she didn't. She thought it would be really funny. That was the first thing that came into her mind.

[B]

And she knows how to poop in the pool. Pooping in the pool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you draw.

[A]

I have to draw 9 11.

[B]

9 11.

[A]

I don't feel good about it.

[B]

You draw two towers and a plane going towards them. But then you wrote the question mark in the corner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now again, I'm as perplexed as you are. I'm taking it so seriously.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I want to show how wrong everyone is because you're doing the question mark that she put on the thing. So you included the question mark. Fair play. But I'm like, if the question mark is in the drawing of 9 11, the drawing is clearly 9 11. But there's a question mark in the corner that has to be part of the clue. So I write 911 conspiracy.

[A]

That's what I thought it was. Basically when I did that, I was like, it's 9 11. Like, did that happen? So I put the question mark.

[B]

Next guy draws. I write 911 conspiracy. He draws a terrible 9 11. You're 9 11. This is a weird thing to say. Your 911 was fantastic. He draws a very bad 9 11.

[A]

I thought it was okay, but yes.

[B]

Nobody would know that was 9 11. He drew it like at the point of impact. You drew it. The plane distance coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he drew a person on the ground with an arrow pointing towards it. And we're all like, what is this guy doing? And he goes, he's planning it.

[A]

Which led to one of the funniest moments of the night.

[B]

This is why I have. This is the. We're all in the family right now. I'm telling you how I'm mad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely insane. Yeah, I'm insane. I think everyone should just pass around bedbugs and get bedbugs cut to. And this is a good, great metaphor for life. The foibles and the trip ups and the slip ups. But all of those things are too vulnerable to me. I'm trying to fold in an appreciation for the imperfect. So much of my spiritual practice, it's all about forgiveness and inclusion and not othering and seeing that they're you and you're them and everything's. It's all one. All of that is coming from this deep psychological need.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To join the party.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be like, this is funny. It's funny that this went so poorly. But I do have like a deep seated need. You said, we're doing this. We have to do it. And it goes back to a childhood where it was like, you said we were doing this and now we're. What is this?

[A]

Sure. And I also think it goes to. You need your existence confirmed. And actually your existence is only confirmed if you are set apart from the group.

[B]

So the group is very lonely.

[A]

Sort of being in this funny moment and laughing at our collective mistakes doesn't feel. It feels fantastic to me because now I'm a part of a group and so that group is holding me and I feel safe. It feels terrible for you because you disappoint, disappear in.

[B]

This is my enneagram before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I go. But think about it as a child, if I merged with the group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Game over. All I could do was go out and try and sparkle as much as I could bring the report of that sparkle back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, like, a weird dagger, like, et tu, Brute?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I use the specialness dagger to escape.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was crazy, right?

[A]

And I used the merging with the group to escape. Like, I just.

[B]

This is exactly Alain du Bolton, his whole thing. Your wound becomes your strategy, and then your strategies sometimes don't serve you at a game night. I'm trying to take it one step further and go, like, I get it. And I wouldn't have played it differently. Like, I have no regret. Like, I regret some of the things I said at that party, but not the way I played that game. Because I'm like, this is what games are supposed to do, is showcase what the fuck is wrong with us.

[A]

Doesn't that sound fun?

[B]

Isn't that fun? Milton Bradley? We're here to stir the pot.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All right.

[A]

All right. We did it. We gave you a nice long one. Are you happy? I'm just kidding.

[B]

We missed it.

[A]

I know. I did. Really.

[B]

And it's very meaningful. People that reached out to Val and. And said thank you for the episodes and missing it, and so Leela's just been out of school, so we're glad that we finally got to do it.

[A]

Yes. Valerie, go ahead. And if you would be so kind, keep it crispy.