We Made It Weird #190

Summary

Podcast Summary

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

Episode: We Made It Weird #190
Date: September 6, 2024
Host: Pete Holmes
Guest/Co-host: Valerie (Val) Holmes

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Episode Overview

This episode of We Made It Weird with Pete Holmes and his wife, Valerie Holmes, delves into the tapestry of everyday weirdness, existential musings, sex, presence, relationships, and the realities of aging and death. True to form, Pete and Val blend humor with depth, trading stories, ideas, and philosophical frameworks in a candid, stream-of-consciousness conversation. The episode weaves together themes of embodiment, spiritual practice, the mystery (and allure) of the unknown in relationships and life, and finding comfort with uncertainty, all peppered with memorable tangents and laughter.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The Allure of Ordinary Rest Stop Restaurants

[05:23 – 10:46]

• Pete paints a sensual, nostalgic picture of finding a “wooden, not fancy, mountain restaurant” which leads to a playful, accidental sexy riff.
• Valerie misinterprets “mushroom cap stuffed with breadcrumbs” as some sort of “mushroom bag,” prompting a burst of laughter and Pete’s tangent on trashy novelty lingerie.
• Quote:

  "It's not fancy… it's a very ordinary place. Drip coffee on burners. Comforty food… what's better than that?" – Pete (07:06)

2. Sex, Embodiment, and Flow States

[10:46 – 18:42]

• Pete observes that sex is one of the last primal embodied experiences for screen-obsessed modern humans. It’s compared to skiing and rock climbing for its capacity to force us into presence.
• Discussion of how activities that require full attention (sex, skiing, dancing) are portals to a deeper sense of aliveness.
• Quote:

  "Sex is like the pilot light of our humanity… so lo-fi, animalistic, and vital." – Pete (12:54)
  "You're like the only time you're present and in your body. And I think that is true for sex for a lot of people." – Valerie (13:26)

3. Spiritual Practice as Connection to the “Screen” of Awareness

[18:42 – 26:36]

• Pete references Rupert Spira, using the metaphor of the “unchanging screen” on which all experience plays.
• Val connects this to Inside Out 2 and parts work, noting how all feelings reside within something larger (the “viewer,” “the screen”).
• Discussion of spiritual practice: It’s not just thinking about a place of internal peace, but “going there.”
• Quote:

  "It's not just thinking about that [awareness]… like in a busy office, you don't just think about your house—you go there." – Pete (21:00)

4. Parenting, Seeking Fulfillment, and the Limits of Reason

[26:36 – 36:04]

• Pete and Val unpack their experiences with Lila’s (their daughter) tantrums, realizing that even the best “reasoned” responses fall short—sometimes what’s needed is breath, touch, or just being present.
• They reflect on how fleeting fulfillment is: achievements and good news deliver only temporary satisfaction.
• Quote:

  "Looking for fulfillment in strawberry shortcake or in bike rides… doesn't work. And when it's not working for Leela, it reminds us that it also doesn't work for us." – Pete (30:45)

5. The Mystery as the Lifeforce in Relationships and Life

[36:04 – 45:06]

• They agree that both science and religion’s greatest value isn’t in certainty, but in keeping the wonder and conversation going.
• Drawing analogies between relationships and spirituality: The unknown—the “not knowing everything about your partner”—is what maintains vitality and attraction.
• Quote:

  "The point is wonder and mystery… the thrill and vitality exist in the unknown.” – Valerie (37:41)
  "You want your relationship to mirror what you know deep down: reality is skiing down a mountain…constant uncertainty and excitement and novelty." – Pete (39:08)

6. Seeing and Being Present with Others

[45:06 – 47:27]

• In relationships, we often stop seeing partners as whole people, only as extensions of ourselves or collections of associations.
• Pete shares his recent effort to “really see” Valerie, inspired by My Dinner with Andre, emphasizing the importance of presence for passion and connection.

7. Non-Duality, Merging, and the Play of Awareness

[47:27 – 58:05]

• Delving into non-dual spiritual ideas: Merging with another is, in a way, merging with God/awareness itself.
• The episode invokes imagery of swirls and currents in water to illustrate the relationship between the individual and the infinite.
• "There's nothing to do. There's nothing to fix. There's nowhere to go… Whatever you're trying to realize—must be present now." – Pete (47:32)

8. Aging, Death, and Letting Go

[55:44 – 79:47]

• With humor and honesty, Pete and Val reflect on the realities of aging, including parents and grandparents facing death, and the body's stubborn will to live.
• Valerie shares her grandmother’s conflicted final days with compassion and dark humor, illustrating how the body resists death even if the spirit is willing.
• They reference the impossibility of being fully “prepared” for death—drawing parallels to birth, spiritual practice, and human longing for more experiences.
• "It was never about acquiring more—one more trip, one more memory—it's a bucket with no bottom." – Pete (75:50)

9. Surrender, Doing Less, and the Grace of the Unknown

[73:21 – 78:39]

• The wisdom that serenity comes not from grasping, but allowing:
  “Most of our effort is going into trying to control or understand what we could never control or understand.” – Valerie (74:06)
• They circle back to letting sand slip through your hands, echoing both Buddhist detachment and Jesus’s surrender.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fulfillment:

  "You sell a book, you feel good for 40 minutes. That fucking sucks. You should feel good for your life." – Pete (31:26)

• On the Unknown:

  "All the juice is in the mystery and the wondering… once you make it certain, we lose our life force." – Valerie (37:42)

• On Surrendering to Life:

  "How many orgasms, how many sunsets, how many meals before you realize that death isn’t the failure? It was never really about the acquiring." – Pete (75:17)

• On Non-Duality:

  "Merging with Leela is merging with God, and merging with you is merging with God… there's nothing else to merge with." – Pete (46:22)

• On Presence:

  "Can I keep a grounding rod—just keep a tether to that [unchanging, peaceful awareness]?" – Pete (22:15)

• On Control and Effort:

  "Most of our effort is going into trying to control or understand what we could never control or understand." – Valerie (74:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Mountain Restaurant Riff and Sexiness – [05:23–10:46]
• Sex, Flow States, and Embodiment – [10:46–18:42]
• Spiritual Awareness and “The Screen” – [18:42–26:36]
• Parenting and the Limits of Reason – [26:36–36:04]
• Mystery, Wonder, and Relationship Dynamics – [36:04–45:06]
• The Importance of Truly Seeing Each Other – [45:06–47:27]
• Non-Dual Play, Merging, and Presence – [47:27–58:05]
• Aging, Death, and Letting Go – [55:44–79:47]
• Surrender, Allowance, and Closure – [73:21–79:47]

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Tone and Style

• Language: Intimate, humorous, stream-of-consciousness. Pete’s analogies and Valerie’s candid reflections keep the conversation alive, honest, and accessible.
• Energy: Lively, reflective, and unafraid of dark or challenging topics—always returning to presence, wonder, and connection.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a funny, vulnerable meditation on being alive—in all its weirdness. It swings from jokes about burping to the profundities of spiritual presence, loving, and dying. Whether Pete and Val are riffing about comfort food, breaking down when reason fails parents, or contemplating the cosmic joke of always wanting one more trip, they invite listeners to embrace both the mystery and mess of human life.

“Keep it crispy.”

Transcript

[A]

You made it weird. You made it with. You made it with. Oh, yeah, you made it weird. Yes, you made it weird. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

[B]

What's happening, weirdos? You freaks.

[A]

What's happening? You freaky dickies. You stinky feet. Freaky deaky. Wicked. I know I always say it. It's a great one.

[B]

You do literally every time.

[A]

Yeah. What are you gonna say? It's a bad one. But I feel like this one's particularly wonderful and I'm glad you guys are here. I have some tour dates. They're all on petehomes.com I believe. Minneapolis, Buffalo. I'm just making this up, but Minneapolis and Buffalo are coming up. Thanks to everybody that came to Pittsburgh. Five sold out shows. That was awesome. Milwaukee and Denver. And we're going to be adding new ones. We're going to be announcing Seattle, Portland in December, both of those and some more. So keep an eye on PeteHomes.com and Largo is once a month. I believe the next one might be October 29th. So hope to see you out there. They're always the highlight of my month. Go to largo-la.com for tickets to that. And as we always say, the show is supported by sponsors that we actually love and use. So if any of these ads speak to you and you like the show and you want to say thank you, maybe try one of them. Maybe get one for a friend. It's the best and most direct way you can support the show and we appreciate it. Katie, roll it. Pardon the interruption, weirdos.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

Yep.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

All right, everybody, so glad you're here.

[B]

Valerie, get into it.

[A]

Welcome to the program. WPPZ Buzz. The buzz, the buzz in the morning. It's me, Jerry D. Buzzly. Can I, can I, can I, can I, can I start by saying that if you're like in like the mountains.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

And there's like a road.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Like suspicious.

[D]

Uh huh.

[A]

And then like sort of nestled into the mountain is like a wooden.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh my God, this is turning you on. So sort of nestled into the tight spaces of the mountain, there's this imposing wood. Valerie, whenever you do sexy, I always say it's not funny. It's very serious.

[B]

It's serious to be sexy.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Continue, please.

[A]

Wood nestled into the mountains, like a wood exterior. Inside it's dark. There might be a stone fireplace. Oh, my God. There might be a stone or two. There's gonna be a decorative wooden bear out front.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

What's that called?

[A]

Chachki.

[B]

Burl or something.

[A]

Burl.

[B]

I'm close.

[A]

It might be burl. I don't know. I don't know. And what I'm saying is it's not fancy. I'm not describing like a fancy place. It's a very ordinary place. Drip coffee on burners. It was made this morning, but a lot of turnover, so, you know, pretty fresh. You're gonna see like a stuffed mushroom, like a breadcrumb.

[B]

Breadcrumb.

[A]

Yeah. Mushroom caps stuffed with breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs and maybe cheese. The salad has, like, pretty serious croutons on it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And it's all iceberg.

[A]

It's. Yeah, it's all iceberg.

[B]

Or romaine.

[A]

I mean, Rebecca. Romaine. Rebecca. Romaine. Beautiful romaine. What I'm saying is, what I'm coming to terms with is like, you and I. I think I can speak for you. I'm gonna put this to you. You agree or disagree? Like, what's better than that? Like you're in the wilderness and you see it and there it is. And back when I drank, that was even better because you were like, I can get liquor in here. So that was even. So I'll even include that for our. For our drinking listeners. But there's definitely comforty kind of food and waitress, and it's not busy.

[B]

Oh, wait, is it a diner?

[A]

It's not a diner. It's a restaurant. In fact, there's a restaurant.

[B]

This whole time, I was picturing a house like a cat.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry. This is a restaurant.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What a huge. That deserves a.

[B]

And I am still. I am still stuck on the mushroom cap. Is it a. Like, a mushroom bag? Like, what.

[A]

What. What?

[B]

They're saying it's a mushroom cap full of bread crumbs and cheese. Oh, it's one of the things they serve at the restaurant.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you think I meant?

[B]

I was trying to make it work. Like, this is something in the kitchen that. You know how, like, there's certain ways that people hold their fruit?

[A]

Oh, my God. Like a netting.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, is there, like, a mushroom?

[A]

Like, that was.

[B]

That's kind of bag that. That's where they cook their cheese and breadcrumbs.

[A]

I'm gonna count. That's really funny. A mushroom cap. Like, there's a limit on how many mushrooms they serve. Or there's, like, a bag of them hanging like dried chilies.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I was picturing something like that.

[A]

It's funny that you mentioned that, because of all the trashy. Like, if there were. If there was one item that they sell at, like, a truck stop, adult bookstore that I would find, like, as intended, like, erotic, meaning a lot of that. I'd be like, this is trashy. And that would take me out of it. Like edible undies. Like, get out of here. It's always with some cartoon. They always soften it with something childish, like my G string is G string cheese or something. Yikes.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

So there was always, like, a comedy element, softening the adult nature. But like a. I was just thinking about this the other day that a. Like a dress. I guess it would be lingerie. That is like a banana bag like you just described. Oh, like a netting.

[B]

Deep netting.

[A]

Like a net deep.

[B]

I mean, like big holes.

[A]

Big holes. This is great.

[B]

What is happening?

[A]

I don't know, but it's. It's a happening.

[B]

It is a happening. I think I'm ovulating.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

And we're just both, like, accidentally saying sexual things. No. Is that not the read?

[A]

Oh, that's what you were picking up on? Like, why is this so sexual?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I was picking up on. Why is this so great. I'm enjoying the electric vibration living, which is, you know, sexuality is a part of that. It's actually there's sort of a tragedy that like one of the only connections that so many people have to screen free, present, embodied, engaging, natural. Similar to dancing. There's like, you know, a rhythmic moving. Is sex. Like it's like the last to go. Meaning so much of our experience, judgment free zone has been flattened and sensationalized and edited and present. And we scroll through it and we watch it on TV and, and we eat. But there's a lot of like unconscious eating. Guilty.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there's sex. Sex is like the pilot light of our humanity. It remains. Yes, like even the most detached. Now, I'm not talking about like a modern, like Gen Z person who's all online. I'm not even thinking about that. I'm thinking about like a basic bitch, 50s, middle of wherever, just kind of going through life without much shamanic. You know what I mean? Not a lot of like tantric or like fire fire, like red clay, barefoot, howling at the moon, bathing in a waterfall or having like a dream and like interpreting it. Like all of that may be pushed out by constant streams of news and massage chairs and bowel movements that have no help from the fiber community. And just like, like cut off. That guy or woman still may be occasionally having sex, which is so lo fi.

[B]

It's so, so lo fi. So like animalistic and vital.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And granted you can also have.

[A]

You can have horrible, detached, disembodied, dissociated sex. Yeah.

[B]

But that would be probably the most embodied. Some people are being like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also I always feel that way about any sort of, you know, people who are like very into skiing or rock.

[A]

Climbing or something that's stretching them and moving them.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like you probably because that's like the only time you're present and in your body. And I think that that is true for sex for a lot of people.

[A]

I agree. And you know, it's funny. Skiing and rock climbing are two great examples of what I try to do in my spiritual breakfast.

[B]

Jes.

[A]

My very serious spiritual practice, baby. You know, I don't even know what baby R this from. Is that Goonies?

[B]

What is that from? Oh, it is from Baby Root, but.

[A]

It'S also from the office. Frank and Beans.

[B]

Frank, Frank and Beans.

[A]

When Jim and Pam have an off camera private joke and they never show it to you what it is.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I know, me too. But in my super serious spiritual practice I'm always trying to sort of. What we're talking about with sex is I'm trying to engage with the raw data would be one way to put it. That is, as everyone's listening to this emerging and constantly changing. I think one of the reasons why we're interested in fountains and screensavers, things that are just kind of like, you know, moving. It reminds us of just exactly what's in reality. Or sped up.

[B]

Impermanent.

[A]

Yeah. Sped up footage.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like even seeing something from above and you just see the cars and the people and the ant farm nature of things.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Just kind of helps us step out of our limited perspective. Where admittedly, everything in this room, the table and this all seems like it's very, very here.

[B]

Very here for good.

[A]

Yeah, very here for good. But skiing or rock climbing, snap you so. So essentially so necessarily, meaning your safety depends on a hyper vigilance to, like, be paying attention to the landscape. I feel that sometimes when we're biking, I got Lila on the back and I'm looking for those little divots in the road. And I know where a lot of them are in the neighborhood because they're so annoying. You hit this little. It's like the size of a cup of coffee, but it's enough to really lift you off your ass and set you back down with not so much as a thank you.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So what I'm saying is, and we've made this point before, but something about skiing that you said. I think that's right on. It's like flying down a mountain.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And even if you are just kind of like going to a wedding, make no mistake, you're flying down a mountain. And if we can get in touch with that meaning, look at how nothing, especially a wedding's a really good example. Cause you're in a ballroom and everyone's moving, you know, even if it's slowly. They're getting up to eat, they're dancing, they're whatever, going to the bathroom. You're seeing a lot of movement. And that is sort of a level skiing. Like a. There's downhill skiing, there's cross country skiing. I'm talking about wedding skiing.

[B]

Well, also, I think I'm thinking of, like, how we really respond to the story arc. Like a plot. What did we call it when I taught English? Like a plot curve or something. I can't remember what it's called, but it's like the buildup, the climax, and then the, like, letting down conclusion.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Like the movement, the. And like. But that it moves specifically in that way. So it kind of goes up and up and up and up, and then it climaxes and then it starts to.

[A]

Go down and then it starts to come up again and then it.

[B]

Yeah, and so that's. I mean, that's sex, if you're doing it right.

[A]

Real estate.

[B]

And that's skiing, like you're riding.

[A]

No, you're absolutely right. We've talked about this with waves and. And surfing is engaging with one of the few waves we can see. Everything is waves, sound waves and whatever. When you look at energy, blah, blah. I'm not the person to ask about that, but a lot of waves showing up in physics.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's waves in the ocean and you can, like, get on them. That's what I'm saying. The reason why I'm talking about ski, the skiing of going to a wedding or the skiing of being on the subway or being on a train or going to work or whatever it might be isn't just because that's kind of like fun. It's because the. The level of engagement that a skier has with their reality or someone who's having sex. I'm going to say it properly. Who's engaging with their partner and connecting with their own body and their partner's body. I think one of the. One of the. I don't want to say keys of life, but one of the. One of the metrics that you can measure your life with is how much are you, like, engaged in your regular life with that level of intensity. Rock climbing or skiing or. Or surfing. All three of those sort of trick you into engaging.

[B]

It's flow state, too.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You're like, hyper alive and aware and present with what you're doing. You're saying you can be in that flow state even at a wedding. Is this.

[A]

Yeah, I'm saying you can be in that flow state. And in fact, somebody asked me, I did some. I guessed it on someone's podcast yesterday. And they asked me what my spiritual practice was, which, of course, I was thrilled about. And I was like, well, it gave me pause to. To think about it. And obviously there is certain things that I do. But as I've learned from Rupert Spira, the main practice is to check in to my, like, sense into myself, into the, you know, the. The field of awareness. Check. Check in with. You could call it being present, but what you're being present to is a sense of being. And he made this really interesting point. I listened to him this week. He was like, you know, we don't just talk about these things. Being present or sensing into a sense of self, or finding that part of you that is unchanging. You know, sort of like the screen that the movie plays on. Finding that screen, the part of you that was the same when you were 2 or 22 or 42. That constant sense of, I am being myself, I am. He goes, you don't just think about that. So, like, if you work in a busy office building downtown and it's lunchtime, you don't just think about your house where it's quiet and peaceful and you can have a nice lunch. You go there. And I was like, oh, my God, that's the spiritual practice. That's my practice. Isn't just. Even as I'm talking to you, not just going, like, there is a part of me that is unchanging and spacious and peaceful and content and fulfilled. Fulfilled with, and only with itself. Lacking nothing, seeking nothing in experience. Don't just think about that. Take. It's not literally how you do it, but like, take a step back into it and go, ah, there it is. So that's what I've been doing. Leila's been having tantrums. And I check, is that space still there? And the, the good news of the gospel is like, you're like, yes, it is. I'm. I've had too much coffee and I'm anxious and I'm angry. Is the space still there? Yes. And then, like, it's a little silly to make it a game of like, like inside out. At the end of the day, you have all the colored balls and some of them are yellow and some of them are red and some of them are blue. You're like, a good day is if they're all yellow. It's silly to apply that kind of feeling. But seeing as the deepest source of peace and happiness and fulfillment I found is in that space, is in stepping away from. Boy, I hope I get a good seat on this airplane. And those momentary winds that, as we said as we're skiing down the mountain, those winds are so momentary. You know what I mean? Like, I've worked so hard. I told. We've been talking about. I wrote a kid's book and I'm very proud of it. And then you get the news they're going to make an offer and you get this good feeling. And I'm shocked at how short that feeling is, right? And you know, when I was younger and I had less. Less achievements, maybe it would have lasted longer, but still not longer than an hour, right? You know what? You know that thing where you're like, you have good news and you have to, like, keep remembering it so you can. Ah. It's like smelling a flower again and again and again and again. And then eventually it just. Like a smell. Like, you get used to a smell. So anyway, the practice has become a little bit of, like, again, even as I love talking about it because it reminds me, even as we're talking about it, can I, like, keep a grounding rod? You know how they put grounding rods and in the soil to ground people, like electrical workers and stuff? Can I just keep a tether to that?

[B]

It's interesting that you mentioned Inside out, because this. The first time that it's kind of occurred to me this way, where obviously that those movies are so helpful and. And even just having the framework of like, oh, like, anger is talking now. It's parts work. It's like. It's basically internal family systems or just, you know, internal family systems isn't the only type of parts work. Parts work is a bigger umbrella. But, like, where you just see anger, you see fear, you see anxiety, whatever, and just by seeing them, you realize that they're just a part of you. They're not the whole thing. That's why the depiction of anxiety as we're all flipping out about everybody, anybody who's experienced it, is just like, this is unreal. Because that. Like, she's.

[A]

So you mean in the second one?

[B]

The second one, yeah. Because it. It just overtakes everything for a minute, and then it takes sort of another feeling coming in and putting anxiety, like, back into the line of all the types of feelings.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the part that didn't occur to me is that, like, it's like the viewer, like us, the viewer.

[A]

I. The viewer.

[B]

I. The viewer have.

[A]

I just mean all of our eyes.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

All of us call this viewer the same name.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

I, the viewer, have a role in this too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In fact, that's the. The grounding rod.

[C]

Precisely.

[A]

In fact, Inside out, too. Even though it's not in the movie, this idea is represented because it's the screen. And that's Ramana Maharshi's metaphor, and that's Rupert Spirer's metaphor. Is that. Okay. In Inside Out 1, anxiety wasn't one of the feelings. Just like some days you might not have anxiety.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, okay, here's Inside Out 2. Here's a new movie, and there's anxiety. Oh, they're nailing it. There it is. And there's even moments in the movie where they communicate it so effectively that it conjures up this memory and the sensation. That's anxiety. I know exactly what that feels like. And now you're re experiencing it. Yeah, but the screen was in both movies. Yeah, the screen is in every movie.

[B]

That's right. And the screen is.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And the screen is unchanged by what happens in the movie.

[A]

Not. Not to mix metaphors, but I find it useful. Rupert says, like Rupert Spira says, like the space in a room. So he says there's only one awareness. And just like there's. There's the illusion of different buildings and houses. We put up walls, and there's a. There's apparent limitation. But the space in this room and the space in whatever room everyone is listening to is the same space as everywhere.

[D]

Right?

[A]

It's the same space as everywhere. I understand that there's different molecules or different. I can't speak that way scientifically. I'm just saying, like, there's no oxygen or there's certainly decidedly a lot less oxygen. There's no oxygen in outer space except on Saturn. Don't ask me how I know, but, you know, we're talking about the space. And in that same way that, like, nothing in a room, you and I having this conversation, in fact, you could really trip out on this, like, this space that we're in, this physical location. You know, go back a thousand years, same space, pristine. And this is Muji. Remember? He goes, fresh.

[B]

Fresh.

[A]

It was always fresh. It was always fresh. It was always this space. There's nothing matte about this. It's very alive.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It was the same space when dinosaurs were walking through it or what have you. And another metaphor that Rupert Spiry uses is. He's like, your awareness is like water, and you add coffee or tea, and it colors it. Like, so when you're having. As we have, like. Leila had some really rough times this week, and we had that one of those moments where we were in a restaurant and we were the family with the kid that was really screaming and, like, threw a spoon at me and all this sort of stuff. Now that we're sitting here calmly, and I. You know, I'm. I can even see the humor and the beauty and whatever, but in the moment, that's very strong coffee. To go back to that metaphor, meaning the water is just completely black. I'm having, like, a really intense. You know, it feels like I'm weighing scales. It's my feelings, Leela's feelings, and I'm trying to get it just Right. It's like, I need to represent a little correction here. Like, baby, we need to. You gotta.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And also, like, anyway, there's a. It's like juggling, I guess, but also, even in moments like that. And I can't necessarily say I did it when she was having her tantrum, but I certainly did it right after. And that's. The game is going. Like, is the water still present in the coffee? All I taste is coffee. All I taste is panic and dread. And there's always sadness for her. And also there's this existential. Like, Leela often has meltdowns. And this is very familiar to the human experience when we're giving her everything that she wants.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

I don't mean. I don't like the word spoiled, but, like, not in a moment like that. I mean, like a nice bike ride to a dinner. We had pizza and now we're sharing a dessert and she doesn't want to share.

[B]

That's what the tantrums are.

[A]

And then you go, like, I gave you.

[B]

You're getting dessert and you're crying right now. And unfortunately, I do say that exactly like that in my. My less resourced moment.

[A]

I don't think that's wrong. I mean, we're here to give her a trial run of what the world might be like and that she's going to run into that.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you. But it's not. It doesn't help the situation. It doesn't diffuse the situation.

[A]

Now, if we only said things that were helpful, I don't know how much we would say, like, I don't know. Right. That's a really trying. We're trying in that moment. I believe that you think this has been coming up a lot lately. When it comes to matters in our own lives, in our adult lives of the heart, we try to get at them with reason. And it's just like. It's the wrong. It's like trying to unlock a door with a slice of French toast. It's, like, completely wrong.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And I know I'm talking like you.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's like what we actually need is breath, or we need touch, or we need quiet, or maybe we need loud. Maybe we need music. Maybe we need exercise or whatever it might be.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, so often and with trauma in families, I'll speak to my own family. It's like, you want to, like, present a case.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And be like, well, this happened and it made me feel this, and therefore this.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And everyone. Like, it's like you walked into a courtroom in Portugal and just started speaking English. And everyone's like, we speak Portuguese here.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just the wrong approach. And we do that with her. And we know we're doing it. Leela's having a meltdown.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So she's not like the 50 year old that needs to hear, like, absolutely. And we know that, but we're going. Then we also are unresourced. We're having our own tantrum.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which is, like, what you really want to say. And 90s moms and dads and what am I saying? We've done this too. Full sarcasm, where you're like, great, great. Yeah, I understand dad wanted a bite of your strawberry shortcake that he bought you, that he rode you here, that.

[C]

We sat outside with your friend.

[A]

And before this, we had another play date. And before that, we had camp. And, you know, like, you just want to be like, all I do, but, sorry, I'm all over the place. But I do want to stick the landing on this point is this kind of goes back to what I was saying was looking for fulfillment in strawberry shortcake or in play dates or in beautiful bike rides. Doesn't work. And when it's not working for Leela, it's so upsetting. Like, deeply upsetting, because it's reflecting and reminding you and I that it also doesn't work. I'm back to my point. Like, you sell a book, you feel good for 40 minutes. That fucking sucks.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You should feel good for your life. You should just always feel good. I know, but, like, the name of this podcast could be, like, look, two resourced in love fulfilled people who have figured out what they like to do and. And have, you know, the access to do it. I mean, both of us also are dealing with the exact same oiled up, Grecian Olympic wrestler.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of reality. And it pins us at the strangest moments.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you just want to cry. You go like, I don't understand. A simple example is, I got the perfect amount of sleep. Why am I exhausted?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And your heart is screaming. Like, you don't actually get energy from. Just like, sorry, I'm on a real tear here. But, like, I watch. I watched a video about. Is Dr. Huberman wrong about delaying your caffeine intake? So Andrew Huberman has this thing, you should wait 90 minutes to two hours before you drink your coffee. And they did this test. They were like, we're gonna test it. And I was watching, with full respect to science, just how darling, science is still human. It's still human. It's as human as poetry. It's doing a different thing, but it's still being done by humans. And when I say darling, I don't mean stupid, I mean like hand on my heart, like, oh, baby, we're doing the best we can, aren't we? Because they were going, so does delaying your coffee really help you not crash in the afternoon? That's Huberman's thesis. So that we're going to do it and there's 30 of us and we're going to. Some of us are going to. It's like a blind test. Some of us are going to be given decaf, some of us are going to be given regular, you won't know which. And then we're going to. This is where the real fudge, the punch comes in. We're going to test whether or not you had a crash in the afternoon. How are we going to do that? Well, if you ask me in the afternoon, how's your energy level? And I just got off the phone with my dad, I'm gonna say very, very low. Like, don't we see what we're rolling? A million side die. And of course science acknowledges this, but they march forward anyway going like, well, what are we gonna do? Not do experiments.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So they march forward. That's darling. I know, but they acknowledge asking, are you having a crash isn't enough? So we're also gonna give them a cognitive test like a. And then the data comes back and you're watching it. Whenever I watch things like that, just like with any pursuit of any type of truth on any level, you just go, look at us, we're dogs trying to explain the Internet. Like we're doing our best. And some of us bark so brilliantly and so eloquent and you just go, this is a fountain. We are in a fountain. And like a constantly changing fractal fountain of feelings and circumstances and the emotion and psychology and God love us, we're all doing the best we can. Yeah, but at the same point you could say like that test proved nothing Huberman proved. By the way, they said, no, it doesn't make a difference. That was their data. And then you just know that if you present that to Huberman, like any good scientist, he would say what was the variables? And the variables are the control group was too small, the test was insufficient. You know, we need to be taking this and this and this. And you go, it's always like that. This is why there's year round research labs. I know, it's Just constantly passed. Just like the poet. This is why there's new poetry being written. Because you thought Pablo Neruda cracked open the heart, and then Walt Whitman is like, actually, I think some of the variables were ignored. It's just. We're just spiraling through infinity trying to explain the quality of a sandstorm around us, right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's no wonder. And then you could also find meaning there and go, like, look at the grace that the reality we're in happens to be. You could say unknowable. That's kind of desperate. But you could also just say perpetually inviting you to investigate it.

[B]

Absolutely. I do find all the meaning in that. In fact, like, the only reason, guessing what's happening here, either through science or religion or simulation theory, that's. That's only interesting. Not because we're gonna crack it, because we're not going to crack it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just be. Those conversations are only fascinating because it points to wonder.

[A]

You're so right on.

[B]

So it becomes problematic in a lot of ways once there's certainty, where it's like, well, it definitely is this. And you're like, well, that wasn't the point. Like, we don't know. Nobody knows. And you can have your, you know, beliefs for the purposes of making the sandstorm more beautiful and enjoyable and to engage with it and to engage with it, but to have a certainty that ends the conversation is just missing the point, because the point is wonder and mystery. And you're right. The second it's like it is. It does go back to kind of. To sex and. And relationships. And, you know how it's. It's so much more exciting in the beginnings because there is such a. Like a high degree of unknown. You don't know everything about that person. You don't know if you're gonna make it. You don't know if they are as into you as you are into them. All of that makes everything, the thrill and the exciting and the vitality exist. And the second that you tried to make it certain, and now we're married and we'll never get a divorce. And I know everything about you, and you have to tell me all your secrets, and you have to tell me everything. And you know, there can be no part of this that's unknown. We lose our life force.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So that's. That's the certainty of religion. It's all the juice is in the mystery and the wondering and.

[A]

And it's very much like a relationship. I'm hearing you because, like, I. I've been making a decided effort to, like, really see you, which I always do. But, like, I just mean, like, physically see you. I rewatched My Dinner with Andre, which I mentioned at that dinner, which is there's no way to kind of say that without. I don't know how it sounds. I think it's such a cliche, intellectual film.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

That. It sort of sounds that way. But I just think it's the first podcast.

[B]

Yeah. It's so good.

[A]

I mean, so good.

[B]

It's. It's popular for a reason.

[A]

If you like this podcast, you'll like the movie. My Dinner with Andre and I. I invite you to push past the first six times. You think I should turn this off and watch.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Something that's gonna, like, light me up with instant dopamine. It's coming. Like, it's coming, but it was it to your point. We're watching the Affair. I think one of the reasons why people have affairs is because they want their relationship to mirror what they know deep down is happening here, which is constant uncertainty and excitement and novelty and evolution and revolution and redefining, redefinition. You know what I mean? Like, so you want your relationship. You're like, wait, no. Reality is skiing. Skiing down a mountain. And now suddenly we've. Now I'm cross country skiing.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm in, like, a regular thing. But, you know, that's not real. That's just an illusion. So then you start having an affair and you start feeling, like, alive again. So. Which obviously, I'm not saying, blah, blah, blah, but when I. When I was watching my dinner with Andre and they're talking about seeing each other, when you and I reach a cruising altitude in a relationship, well, now there's a temptation to go, like, we know what this love is. We know what reality is. And you can start building yourself a pretty boring microcosm. Like this little world like a church, like, this is higher grounds. It's where we get our coffee, and in the sanctuary is where we get our truth. And fellowship hall is where we have our fellowship, and the gym is where the kids play. And it's all just sort of parceled out. And you go like, what. What happened to howling at the moon and, you know, skinny dipping or sitting on a log and licking. Licking a frog.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See what happens? So in a really interesting way, what we're talking about, I think, is neural grooves, at least on that level.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

On the gray matter level, we're talking about parts of your brain that are just getting deeper and deeper and Deeper. So then I'm not seeing you. I am. I'm really making that effort. But that's been my game lately. I'm. But when you're not. You know, when you put that on autopilot, I'm actually seeing my memory of you. Like, I'm. I'm projecting onto you.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Or an older version of you and filling in blanks.

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

Just like our house used to be. So much. Our house is still beautiful, but it used to be so much more beautiful when we first moved in.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And now I'm projecting, and you could really see this. Like, backdrops in a play. Like, big, you know, hemp sheets that you've painted. I've just made it into 18 backdrops. And I look around and I see those backdrops because it's too overwhelming. But when we were first here, I was like, I don't know where to look. I don't know what trees are where. And you're like. And we make this point almost every episode. That's why travel is so engaging. But, like, trying to. So the point in my dinner with Andre that he makes is he's like, I was deeply depressed and I went to work at the theater, of all places. You'd think it would be groovier, but he's like, five, six people saw me and told me how great I looked because all they saw was that I had a tan and that my tan matched my shirt and my shirt matched my pants. And then he's like. And then finally, the last person that saw me said, God, you look awful. And I was like. And we connected and we talked for, like, an hour. And I'm like, that's so interesting. A lot of what my dinner with Andre is about is the dream state. And it is an insane. It's an insane dream. And the. And the lies that people. The bigger the lies that people ask you to kind of swallow and overlook, the bigger the pile of elephant shit in the living room that we're just spraying glade on and ignoring. Even if it is, you're feeling low today or you look terrible today, the more of those, the greater the pit in our stomach and the worse on our posture. And the sooner the grave, like, it's just. It will kill you. So we're trying. So I'm trying to see you because one that's very exciting and interesting, but then you become my tether. You become this anchor. And I try. Obviously, I'm doing that with Leela. Every time I look at her, I'm Like, I'm really trying to see her. Her. Because that's how she's looking.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And go like that becomes the tether, the grounding rod into the true. This is a paradox. But the true dream, the true. When I say dream, I don't mean that in a dismissive way. I'm not talking about the screen anymore. I'm talking about a way of engaging with the movie.

[D]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Well, there's that, like, spiritual level, for sure, of, like, seeing, you know, seeing the. They are the same screen that you are, you know, that I am and Leela is. But also this just on the. Like, you know, this. In this realm or whatever. I know that's in this realm, but on a different level.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Like seeing. I think when you're. When you know somebody and you live with them and you know them so well, you. You only see them really as what they are to you. Like, you stop seeing them as a whole person and you see them as your associations with them and what you like, you only see them as your relationship to them.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And that becomes not exciting because they're actually, like, isn't enough separation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's where the. The, you know, I've explained this so many times, but the feminine mystic method of being, like, using separation to be in relationship and. And, you know, like, love in that way until you merge is so interesting to me because. Because it's a different type of emerging when you're. We're being, like, really present with each other. And then we see. We see, like, we actually are the same. But I. It's just more interesting when it starts as, like, a totally separate person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then. Then there's like a dream state way of merging where I'm only seeing you as, like, my relationship with you. And I'm so comfortable with you that you're. You become like an appendage to me. And then there's no thrill or excitement or interest, really.

[D]

Because.

[B]

I don't know. I guess I'm just noticing that there's these two different ways of merging.

[A]

But, yes, it's not. I love this today. Meaning there are other times when I might push and be like, no, it's only the absolute reality. It's only. We need to get back to it. The one. The one. The one. And this isn't like we were saying last week, this is blissfully irrelevant and all that. But the paradox that, again, keeps us so engaging is that I don't think this is a mistake. I think it's in awareness or Being or God's nature to express and create and play. And on that level, I think I said this last time. But, like, when we did, we had our psychedelic journey, most recently, me and my friend, we were laughing that there's almost a voice that goes, stop it, stop it, stop it. Shut up, shut up, shut up. Meaning this is also beautiful. And that's what Richard Rohr is so good at, and that's what so many, like, Mirabai Starr is so good at, is this. And that's what the poets and the. And the painters and the. But, like, you know, when I was really into a Course in Miracles, that. That has a much fiercer. Like, this is nothing. This is. This is. This is nothing.

[B]

And, like, if it is anything, it's bad.

[A]

It's evil.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The world was created as an attack on God, was the line. Because a lot of people that read the course don't seem to pick up on that. And I'm always like, that's one of the lessons. Like, how did you miss it? I don't know, because there's a lot of lovely stuff that would help you miss it. But. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's a valid worldview. But my. My inclination is so much more to, like, without conceptualizing, that I merge with Leela, that I might merge with God isn't. Isn't necessary at all. Merging with Leela is merging with God, and merging with you is merging with God, and. And there's nothing else to merge with. If you think about it as, like, underwater, and there's patterns like swirl. Like currents. Yeah, but we're deep in the ocean. It's very silly to go like this one. This swirl of current is remembering the ocean, and this one is thinking it can remember the ocean by appreciating the current.

[D]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

That's the joke, right?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

As you go. When were you not that.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And the message that comes through almost every time is like, excuse me, there's nothing to do. I know. I burped so perfect. There's nothing to do. There's nothing to fix. There's nowhere to go. There's not. If whatever you're trying to realize, inner peace, union, enlightenment, God must be present now. Far out.

[B]

All right, let's go to the mid Rolls.

[A]

Yeah, let's go to the mid Rolls.

[B]

Let's talk about something completely different.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. That's fine with me. You know, I love talking about butts and diarrhea. All right, we'll be back. I. I will acknowledge the humor of, you know, all this divine dance talk and now some ads. But on a very practical level, these, these help Katie buy her medicinal marijuana. Katie, roll that beautiful bean footage.

[C]

This episode is also brought to us by our friends at Brain fm, one of our newest Pete's picks. And guys, trust me, run, do not.

[A]

Walk to this one.

[C]

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[C]

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[A]

Why?

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

All right, back to the show. All right, what do you want to talk about? Butthead skateboards? The 90s cordless phones? Sega Genesis Kids versus Super Nintendo Kids?

[B]

Yeah, why don't you two. Why don't you tell a story of a hardest laugh from when you were a kid that you haven't told a.

[A]

Hardest laugh from being a kid.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I didn't laugh as a.

[A]

Child, but honestly, that's what my enneagram for once is. Like. There was no laughter.

[B]

But that's not true because I've heard you laughing on a. Yeah, I know. On a recorded tape.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good question. What. What really made me laugh as a kid? I. It's funny. When I ask people this question, I'm always like, I know you might freeze up because.

[B]

Yeah, you're like. You're thinking of all. All of the different ones. Yeah, I know. I can remember, like, also, did you ever do this? I was just talking with my mom about, like, peeing. We laughed. We had a really hard laugh in the Target parking lot. Yesterday. And my mom is a mom, so she has to cross her legs every time she laughs really hard, which then makes us laugh even harder. But we were laughing because she was trying to remember, like, the word. The word pumice stone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which also, I guess, is lava. Rock is the same kind of thing. Maybe.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I'm not sure either. But she was trying to say either of those words, and she couldn't remember or say any of them. So she was like, you know what you can get for that dog hair in the back of the car is a. A pummel. A. A pum. A lava. A law of lava. And I went, are you dying?

[A]

It's funny because I was gonna say, if there's any indication that we are living too long, like. Like that we've medically cheated the natural way of things is that women over 50 can't laugh without just pissing their pants.

[B]

No. Or if there's any reason why you should absolutely do Pilates or Kegels or whatever.

[A]

Obviously. Yeah. No. If you really dissected what I'm saying. I'm not saying we should all be dying soon. Dying.

[B]

Although my mom was just explaining to me that people get UTIs more easily as they get older because the, like, urethra tilts or something, and then it lets in the bacteria, and then it's like succession, where it becomes a problem for their mental health. They, like, start to get either depressed or, like, lose their minds from UTIs, and they can't take anti biotics because their immune systems are so low. And you're just like, wow, we really are living too long. Like, I really do think I'm. I'm hoping by the time. I know this is dark, but it doesn't feel dark. It's only dark if you, like, hate death. Excuse me.

[A]

We've been burping so much.

[B]

I didn't burp. I did that. Like, my body swallowed without my go ahead.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know when that happens?

[A]

Yeah. When Rogue.

[B]

But I am hoping by the time I'm, you know, 95. Well, before then, maybe, but.

[A]

So I'm long dead.

[B]

So you're long dead. That we've obviously figured out things for, like, the quality of life, but then that we've also just sort of. Is it Dr. Kevorkian.

[A]

Oh. Figured out how to, like, gracefully.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Gracefully. Beautifully.

[A]

I told you I wanted. I actually would re. Watch it with you. It's called Ren. Ren Fair or Renaissance Fair. On Max. On the. On the Colo. Drink Max. First person to make that observation. Anyway, he. It opens with meeting this. Like, I think he's 90. 91.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, and when I'm 95, I'm gonna go to Sweden. And they. They'll do it. They put you down.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[B]

He has a plan.

[A]

And it was very like, you also, though, it's not a spoiler. You get the sense that in the same way that my father is always talking about retiring, but never will, and you just know he never will.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's very much what that show is. It's not a spoiler. It's this guy going like, I want to hand over the game keys to my Renaissance Fair. So there was a character that reminded me of my dad, which is that guy. There's a character in there that reminds me of your dad, which is this sort of. Is a Texan guy. And it might have just been that. But, like, he's sort of hoping that the keys will be handed to him, but he's too nice. Then there's a guy that's, like, kind of, like, slick and cutthroat and, like, business savvy. And he's kind. He actually is kind of like Kendall. But anyway. And you're just watching, going like, this guy's never gonna get. He's not going to Switzerland when he's 95. Like, there' going to be a good day where you're like, that's enough. Yeah, that's enough. We will always go, maybe one more orgasm.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the cop. That's why the metaphor or the. The trope of the cop who was one day away from retirement, gets shot on the job. Because that's. All of us is we're like, I'm going to retire tomorrow.

[B]

Right. That's so true. Because. And you also have the.

[A]

But you wanted to die. You wanted to die the day before your retirement. Like, people think you want to get to the retirement, but actually the whole. All of life is postponing the retirement and then dying suddenly before it. That's actually. You should be happy for that guy. That's like, me and the wife are going to Costa Rica.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh, Jimmy. Like, that's us.

[B]

I know.

[A]

That's what we're. That's what we do.

[B]

Right. Because we also have the desire to see stay alive. That's why we're not, like, walking in front of buses and everything.

[A]

And that thought of Costa Rica will always be better than actually going there. And it's humid and there's buggy, and you get diarrhea or whatever it might be.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And also our. The animal of our body keeps us alive and afraid. And by do. Does that. By keeping us afraid of dying too. We're making two different points, but.

[A]

Oh, I. I think I see now.

[B]

But also my.

[D]

Like.

[B]

I mean, I guess this is really dark. Maybe I shouldn't.

[A]

I can't wait. I can't wait for what you're about to say.

[B]

But my. My grandma for, like, the last. At least 10 years, probably 20 years. Well, I mean, for. For most of her adult life, she was, like, off and on suicidal, which is terrible.

[A]

Your grandma?

[B]

My grandma, my mom's mom.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And. But then, like, especially for the last 10 years of her life, when she was just, like, very old and her mind was kind of going or whatever, she would just literally say out loud in the middle of, like, Christmas, like, oh, Jesus, won't you just take me up to heaven? And she really wanted, like, she wanted to die. She was hoping to die. But then when she was in the hospital and they had decided, like, it's time to, like, let. Let her go, like, start hospice and everything, she was like, I can't.

[A]

This is. I'm. I'm on the edge of my seat. I. As a lover of depth. Depth and truth and comedy, I'm enjoying everything. What did she say when they were like, okay, it's time. It's hospice. Him. What did she say, Val? She put on her tap shoes.

[B]

Oh, my God, this is so dark and sad and crazy. She said, I can't breathe. They. You gotta tell somebody. I'm gonna die. But, like, she's like, what are you doing?

[A]

I thought you were gonna say something so much lighter.

[B]

Oh, that one's bad.

[A]

That is. That is an overcast. Like a huge gray cloud just rolled over. Shit.

[B]

Don't abandon me now. You encouraged me.

[A]

I'm not mad at you. Oh, no, no, no.

[B]

It's terrible. Okay. But she didn't, like, continue.

[A]

I'm not abandoning you. I support the Cher. You've told me that before also.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is it. That's. We're talking about something very real right now.

[B]

And it's so sad and scary, but also, she didn't continue to panic. That was just sort of like her. Her flare up and you're like, okay, that is what our body is doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, there it would be. We would be fools to be like, okay, never mind. Like, she really, like, wants to live another 10 years, you know, like, it's like your. Your body is. Is going to do that no matter what, because it's. That's how it's keeping you alive.

[A]

Well, that was.

[B]

I hope that didn't bum anybody out. It's all good. She actually ended up being really happy for the last days of her life.

[A]

I don't think much is at all. I don't think anything is gained by not looking at. And thinking about it and. And. And wrestling with it. So that. That is heavy. But it reminds me of the movie Paddleton. Remember Mark Duplass.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Wants to die. And as he's dying.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And then you said that same thing. You were like, no matter. And as a spiritual person who's interested in a groovy death. Just showing all my cards.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Acknowledging that, like, well, that doesn't mean there won't be a body response that is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, like, that doesn't negate. That's just, you know, to bring it slightly away from the bullseye of death is like, I've been having more of that allowance, more of that forgiveness for all things, including myself. Including a moment of, no, no, no, no, no. Or including being angry or jealous or petty or horny or just take your human feeling.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

I've been doing pretty well at finding compassion for reality. And then I still remain this, like, bubble who's wicked or whatever it is, and. And that's been softening, and I'm very happy.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's. My therapist just said in the most recent session, too. She was like. I had said something where I really got to a point where I'm like. I'm seeing in this moment that whatever happens. And I was talking about a specific situation, but then obviously it opened up this greater truth, but I was like. Like, I'm seeing really clearly now that, like, whatever happens, it's fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she was like, yes, whatever happens, it's fine.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And she was like, that's a really good mantra. And she goes, and if you can open that up to the whole thing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's freedom.

[A]

Well, that's what Krishnamurti said. I don't mind what happens. Another way to say that is whatever happens is fine.

[B]

And she was like. Like, we were using a boat metaphor of, like, how if the boat is anchored, even if there's an engine. What.

[A]

I'm now finding the humor in your dark story.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

No, no, no. It wasn't too far. And it sparked a thought that I have on deck. I have a Tetris next piece that I think is good. Because this is good. This is sparking this conversation about whatever happens is fine.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm breathing so much more gratefully, like, it. Isn't it delicious for all of us to be like, oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah, this is what. I think. I can, like, tie that in and bring it home. So we. We were using a metaphor for something else about how if you're. If your boat is, like, anchored, but, like, in a sort of a bad way, like anchored in something not good, then even if you have.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Even if you have an engine, it's just gonna make the boat go in circle, like. Like Ripley. And then. And I was like. But then. And then at some point, I said something, the whatever happens is fine thing. And she was like. And to continue with the boat metaphor, she's like, that means that's like cutting the rope and having the courage to go into the open waters and just knowing that you can handle the open waters. Whatever happens is fine. It's like. And even if you get bit, eaten by a shark, then you're dead and you don't know, and that's fine. And she's like. And that's real freedom, because then you're not afraid of death. So it's like, whatever happens is fine. Including. What if I panic when I die? Yeah, that's fine, too. What. What if I die? Okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. That's really interesting. I. I have a million. A million. A million thoughts. But what you just said brought up more. Well, the Thomas Merton thing that I quote all the time is. And this is in my dinner with Andre. And what's so haunting about a story like your grandmother's is that she's alone in that moment. You want someone to help. Literally help. Like, what's going on? Why are you letting this happen?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So in my dinner with Andre, they go, one thing's for sure about death. We all do it alone. And then that made me think of Thomas Merton. He makes that same point where he's like, there can be people there, but it's still you going. And then. So Thomas Burton. And I'll say this every time I think of it, because it's a great, wonderful, hopeful thing to remember. He goes, paradoxically, paraphrasing, paradoxically, the solution to that problem, that we die alone is to not go away from it towards speedboats and orgies. Nothing wrong with speedboats or orgies. I'm just saying, like, running away from it isn't the answer. Paradoxically, it's going towards that aloneness and getting very curious and not just Curious. Doing the work, investigating the nature of what it is that. That you call I that is alone that does this thing called dying. What is this I that is alone? And when you really. And this is where words fail, but when you get into it, you go, who dies? What dies? It's like the walls of this room are demolished and the space inside of it that always was the room. We don't live in these walls. We live in. The space contained by the walls is totally fine. So it's sort of. There's an unraveling in death, but you go nowhere and nothing happens to what you essentially are.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The walls in the building do go away.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And we can mourn that. But like, that is the paradox. So going into the open water but also recognizing that that aloneness is. Is, like we said last week, the two pockets. You are everything and you are nothing. So that aloneness is nothing. But that's only part of the story. It's also absolutely everything, which is why I still think the old fashioned classic heaven metaphor of everyone you've ever known is there.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Is good. It's fine. Yeah, it's totally.

[B]

They're just the same thing as you.

[A]

Because they weren't what you thought they were either.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I, you know, so the ripple. Sorry, the current in the ocean ceased, but nothing happened to the water.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think. You know what, it's interesting because I'm having the same sort of. And I can sometimes have the same sort of reaction to the, like, spiritual practice of like, I'm gonna try to do this so that I can have a groovy death and die.

[A]

Well.

[B]

I have the same reaction to. To it that I had with hypnobirthing. It's essentially that exact thing.

[A]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[B]

Hypnobirthing.

[A]

Valerie, when we were talking about the. No. Epidural hypnobirthing.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And it's. And it. And you know, if you get in deep into hypnobirthing, the claims are even.

[A]

Like, it'll be pleasant.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's just a lot of sensation. But I didn't feel any pain. And I'm. I'm not here to tell anybody this, that their reports of their experience isn't true, but everybody that I know, including myself, who did the hypnobirthing classes and listened to the meditations, had at least a point in their labor where they're like all on all fours screaming, somebody help me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

This, like, because it.

[A]

Epidural.

[B]

Yeah, but, but, but that's the thing. Is. It's. It's. Birth is. Going through labor is a gift in that. And it's the ultimate, like, psychedelic experience. Because if you. If you go long enough without an epidural or, you know, let's just take the epidural out of it. I ended up having one, but, like, I had labor long enough that I. I got to that point. But there is a point, it's inevitable in labor, where you are. You think you're gonna die. Like, you are pretty certain you're gonna die. And the feeling is like, no one can help me. Like, I'm. My body. I'm the only one that's doing this. And it's. And there's just no. Like, no one can make this go away. Which is why I was in love with the epidural guy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I remember, because I was just like, you're gonna make. You're saving my life.

[A]

What was his name? Dr. Al or something?

[B]

Dr. No.

[A]

Dr. No. Yeah. Something really funny. No. You ask for him by name. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

And, you know, maybe there's argument that that's, like, what morphine is for. For dying.

[A]

Don't. Don't misunderstand. The allowance and the forgiveness of all things includes Pete. How great would that be? Dying ripped on morphine.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But I will say, once I. And I'm sure there was maybe, or I'm not sure it's possible that by having the epidural, I missed out on an opportunity of, like, breaking through something that later I had to break through or, you know, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe if you die totally consciously, it is different. But my experience was then, once I had the epidural, I was. I was there. Like, I finally was like, you got to experience. I got to experience it. Yeah.

[A]

Also, again, if we look at ourselves as currents underwater, it's a la. It's a joke to say, maybe if I had done this, I would have realized that I was water. It says this current and says that current.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The ultimate revelation and the reason why Eckhart Tolle seems so calm is because we're all looking at different swirls of water, saying, maybe if I did this, maybe if I die naturally without anything, maybe if I have a birth without anything, maybe if I take ayahuasca, maybe if I do that, maybe if I fast, maybe. And they're all going, like. Then I can recognize that. That I'm water. I'll finally know what water is, that I'm water. And the. But the teacher who's Smiling is like. Sees clearly that. It's all abstractions or it's all the activity of water. John Astin, who I love, this teacher has this book called, like, I'm going to mess it up. But it's something like searching for rain in a monsoon. That's it. Where have you ever gone? That wasn't the fullness of it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's very. It's. It goes back to the science. The darling. It's very darling.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

That we're like, oh, maybe if I do this, maybe if I die naturally, I'll meet God.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Whatever God is, it's eternal and it's infinite and it's complete. So it's here and. And it's. You know, I've done enough theologizing, but there's a great relief in going, like, would you stop? It's actually a stopping.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Of all of this searching. It's. It's. I. I looked for God everywhere. I'm badly paraphrasing something. But only when I gave up and. And walked home did I find them. Yeah, that's it. It's a surrendering and going like a. The love with which I love God is God. The eyes that I'm looking for, God are God. It's like, you know, you're looking for rain in the monsoon is the best.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is the best example.

[B]

That is the answer to. Even in the details of this human experience, it's so often the answer is like, just. Just less. Do less.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like less efforting. Because most of our effort is going into trying to control or understand what we could never control or understand.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So it's. It's just simplifying. It's the art of doing nothing or.

[A]

Just at least doing less or allowing or forgiving. So even with your, you know, admittedly haunting story of your grandmother. I'm not. I'm not making fun of you. There is a haunting quality to that.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

What the ego says, meaning the separate self that believes it's a separate self that shares the limitations of reality that we see, that's forgotten that it's water and thinks that it's a current. And what are currents doing but falling apart? They're dissolving. And there's your grandmother. And she dissolved. And we're going, no, it's a better movie, a better story. She said she wanted to die.

[C]

Then she said, I can't breathe.

[A]

Somebody help me. And we did. We helped her. Then they found this new medicine from Tibet. They injected her, and if she didn't get up and dance. Fine. Okay. Fine. How many experiences before it's okay to let go?

[B]

Right?

[A]

How long. How many things do you need to have? How many orgasms, how many sunsets, how many meals before you realize that, like, death isn't the failure?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

It was never really about the acquiring, which is what we think it is. The acquiring of more and more and more. And they'll always be one more trip. One more trip. My dad's gonna retire. One more day. The Renaissance Fair guy. One more day. So it's not. It's never enough. It's a bucket with no bottom.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's never. It's like when I'm eating cookies. How many cookies is enough? Never comes back the answer. And that's actually a perversion or an extension of what life is. It's like Sadhguru says, if you own the whole Earth, how long before you would want Mars? That's what we do. We want Mars. That's what's happening. So there's all this desire that's creating the universe. Then when you realize that, let's say. So if I did tell that story that we injected your grandma and then she danced and she climbed Mount Everest. What? And she lived another 50 years. Now she's. 150.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she died. Now it's okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't understand your metric. Because what's happening is this. This reasoning falls apart. And then when you look at light, like, the average lifespan used to be, like, 40. And that your grandmother. What was that? Your grandmother compared to those people. So it's all relative. There's no such thing as a medium blizzard unless you're in a Dairy Queen.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Or that she lives and you need.

[A]

To be next to the large and the small to see it.

[B]

She lives another 150 years and says, like, I'm finally ready to die. And then it starts happening, and she says, I can't breathe. Like, no matter what, your body is gonna do that.

[A]

Let's say she lived a million more years.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So the acquiring of experiences, relationships, perceptions, sensations. It can't be it. And in those moments where you. Where you withdraw into the screen. This is why it's irrelevant. But it's blissfully irrelevant. You realize that there is something permanent that you ultimately are. That is playing a game or dancing a dance or dreaming a dream or creating a world. However you want to phrase it. But the point isn't. This is why I always bristle when Tony Robbins is, like, at the end of my life, I want to have all these rocking chair moments and think about that time I skydived or whatever it is. I'm like, I'm not sure. I actually think the skydiving and everything else might be better used as a transformation tool to surrender and let go.

[B]

Well, that's. That's. That's it too, is. You know, even a somewhat less non. Dual perspective is. Or I should say even a more Buddhist perspective is that it's not about collecting the experiences because you can't take them with you. And everything is slipping through our fingers at every moment.

[A]

Show me this morning.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Show it to me.

[B]

So it's just about opening your hands and letting the sand slip through.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And finding the peace in that.

[A]

Which is. One of the ways to interpret Jesus on the cross is you're like, that's it. That's what this is. It's this big letting go.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And even this deity is engaged in this grand surrender. You couldn't ask for a better symbol. Eckhart makes that. Eckhart Tolle makes that really interesting point that if you visited an alien race and one of their most important and ubiquitous symbols was one of them nailed to a cross and people are worshiping it and kneeling, you'd be like, holy. This is pretty weird. Until you realize that that's. We're back to skiing. It's moment by moment ending. I've died a million, billion times. And then. And then you get into the sansa, and then you realize that there's a. There's a sort of a loveliness to it that the ego will never not rebel against.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like dying. And one more burp.

[B]

Thank you for that.

[A]

You know, I think it's important that I burp here.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Well, I support you.

[A]

Thank you, Valerie. I loved catching up with you.

[B]

Yes. All right, Every babies. Every babies. All right, Every babies. Keep it crispy.