Family Systems and the Roles We Play

Summary

You Make Sense: Family Systems and the Roles We Play – Episode Summary

Release Date: November 26, 2024
Host: Sarah Baldwin, SEP

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Family Systems and the Roles We Play," Sarah Baldwin delves deep into the intricate dynamics of family systems and the enduring roles individuals adopt within their relationships. Drawing upon the latest neuroscience and trauma research, Baldwin offers insightful perspectives on how these roles are formed, their impact on adult relationships, and the transformative journey of healing and rewriting personal scripts.

Understanding Family Systems as a Theatrical Play

Sarah Baldwin begins by likening the family of origin to a theatrical play, where each member is assigned a specific role that they must perform. These roles are often subconsciously imposed during childhood and become the foundation for how individuals relate to others in adulthood.

“Imagine that your family of origin is a theatrical play. … Every family member is an actor in the play, and the play is already written.” (00:05)

Common Roles in Family Systems

Baldwin identifies several prevalent roles that children often adopt within their family plays:

• Golden Child: Often projected with parents' unmet aspirations, becoming the embodiment of what parents desired but did not achieve.

  “You become the golden child. Others of us become the caretaker.” (11:30)

• Caretaker: Taking on the responsibilities and needs of others, often neglecting one's own.

• Emotional Partner: Serving as the confidant or emotional support for a parent, especially in dysfunctional family setups.

• Scapegoat: Bearing the brunt of family frustrations, feeling perpetually at fault or unwanted.

• Perfectionist: Striving for flawlessness to earn parental approval and love.

• Class Clown: Using humor to maintain attention and balance within family dynamics.

Baldwin shares her personal experience, highlighting multiple roles she embodied:

“I had the role of being… the perfectionist. I was the one that had no needs, so I took care of everyone else.” (19:45)

The Impact of Childhood Roles on Adult Relationships

These early-assigned roles significantly influence how individuals form and maintain relationships in adulthood. Baldwin explains that adults often unconsciously seek to replicate their childhood family plays in their romantic partnerships and friendships, maintaining familiar but often dysfunctional dynamics.

“If you play your role, the play works. It might not be a functional, healthy play, but it's a functional play.” (08:20)

This replication occurs because the nervous system seeks familiarity, reinforcing the belief that these familiar patterns are the norms for love and connection.

The Healing Journey: Rewriting the Script

Baldwin emphasizes that healing involves regulating the nervous system to create an internal sense of safety, allowing individuals to shed these outdated roles and embrace their authentic selves. This process enables the rewriting of personal scripts to foster healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

“Healing is the experience of gaining control in our lives in a profound way and supporting us to really be the driver of our life.” (05:50)

As individuals heal, they begin to recognize and relinquish roles that no longer serve them. This transition often leads to challenges in existing relationships, as partners and friends may resist the change, fearing the unknown or the effort required to adopt new roles.

“Negotiation, that bumpiness, does not mean the relationship is going to end. It’s incredibly common as we are upgrading the family system.” (25:30)

Navigating Challenges in Relationships During Healing

When one person begins to change their roles through healing, it necessitates that others in their life also adapt. This can create friction as the dynamics shift towards more genuine and reciprocal interactions. Baldwin reassures listeners that resistance from others is a normal part of the process and does not signify personal failure.

“Even the most loving partners are often very scared of this process because it means we’re heading off into the unknown.” (23:15)

Ultimately, these challenges lead to either the transformation of existing relationships into healthier forms or the amicable end of relationships that no longer align with the individual's authentic self.

Q&A Highlights

In the latter part of the episode, Baldwin addresses listener Rachel's questions, providing practical advice on navigating the complexities of family roles and personal healing.

1. Getting Comfortable Receiving When You're a Giver

Rachel asks how to become comfortable with receiving when one's default is to give. Baldwin responds by acknowledging the fears tied to changing these roles and emphasizes the importance of disconfirming old beliefs through new experiences.

“There are going to be some fear, tentativeness, activation around the process of removing that role from our experience.” (28:15)

She suggests practical steps such as allowing oneself to receive support from friends, animals, or even small gestures from strangers, thereby reinforcing the belief that receiving is safe and rewarding.

2. Navigating Overwhelming Emotions from a Childhood that Denied Feelings

Rachel's second question pertains to managing intense emotions rooted in a family environment that suppressed emotional expression. Baldwin explains the physiological basis of emotional suppression and offers strategies to gently reintroduce and process these emotions.

“Healing is not all hard. Healing’s also filled with joy and excitement.” (44:03)

She recommends methods like journaling, listening to emotionally resonant music, and gradual exposure to suppressed feelings to build tolerance and acceptance.

3. Forgiving Those Who Have Hurt You

The final question revolves around determining the genuineness of apologies from past acquaintances and the process of forgiveness. Baldwin distinguishes between superficial forgiveness and genuine emotional release, stressing the necessity of processing emotions authentically before achieving true forgiveness.

“You cannot forgive unless you have the appropriate response to what occurred.” (54:39)

She advises listening to one's autonomic responses and ensuring that forgiveness is grounded in genuine emotional healing rather than forced reconciliation.

Conclusion

Sarah Baldwin wraps up the episode by reinforcing the empowering nature of healing work. By understanding and transforming the roles ingrained in family systems, individuals can create more authentic and fulfilling relationships, ultimately crafting the life they desire.

“We get to write the script. We get to create the life we desire and the relationships that we desire.” (59:42)

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Notable Quotes

• “Healing is the experience of gaining control in our lives in a profound way and supporting us to really be the driver of our life.” (05:50)
• “If you play your role, the play works. It might not be a functional, healthy play, but it's a functional play.” (08:20)
• “Extremely functional or non-functional plays always function because everyone is playing a role that fits the script.” (Not directly quoted, inferred)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "You Make Sense" serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone seeking to understand the deep-seated roles shaped by their family systems and how these roles influence their adult lives. Through Baldwin's expert insights and relatable analogies, listeners are equipped with the knowledge and tools necessary to embark on a transformative healing journey, ultimately empowering them to redefine their relationships and personal narratives.

Transcript

[Sarah]

Hi, I'm Sarah, and welcome to youo Makesense. I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner and expert on trauma resolution, attachment parts work, and nervous system regulation. This podcast is a manual to understanding your human experience so that you can navigate the world with freedom, ease, empowerment, and create the life that you desire. Remember, you make sense all parts always. So in this episode, we're going to talk about the roles we find ourselves playing in our current relationships and how we begin changing those roles if they're not actually serving us or satisfying us. And we're going to, of course, use neuroscience and polyvagal theory to explain all of it. So the first thing I want to explain is why we find ourselves playing the roles that we play. There are two primary reasons. Number one is your childhood. Wow, am I a broken record? If you listen to a lot of my episodes, you see a commonality here that a lot of this goes back to our nervous system. It actually always does. And also, a lot of things are rooted in our childhood. And when it comes to relational dynamics, the blueprint for that, or the foundation of it begins in our earliest childhood experiences. Because when we came into the world, that was our first introduction to what it's like to be in communion with other living beings. So that blueprint is laid deeply in inside of that database of past information inside of us, and we use it literally like a blueprint or our nervous system does. Now, the second thing that informs the roles that we play are or is rather, if we've done work around creating an internal, secure attachment. And I'm going to talk in this episode about how we do that. We also have other episodes where we talked about that, too. Essentially, what that means is if you are not satisfied with the roles that you're currently playing in your life and the relationships that you have, there are things that we can do to change this. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things about healing work. It's so empowering. It's not passive at all. And trauma is the experience of not having control. Healing is the experience of gaining control in our lives in a profound way and supporting us to really be the driver of our life so that we can step towards the things that we want, including the relationships we desire. So today we're going to talk about family systems and. And the roles that we were given when we came into this world that we find ourselves currently playing and how we begin to change that. So the way that I like to think about family systems, when I say family system, this is the family of origin that you came into. It doesn't have to be biological parents. You may have been raised in a foster home. You may have been raised by your grandmother or grandparents or aunts and uncles and so on and so forth. But that family of origin creates a really profound foundation for how you relate to others in the world. And a way that I like to think about this is imagine that your family of origin is a theatrical play. Like. Like, literally a play. Like, I don't know what plays you like. Maybe you like Hamilton. So it's like the play Hamilton. Right. Which is a really brilliant, brilliant play, by the way. You should go see it. Not to plug it. It's in Los Angeles coming up pretty soon, I think. Anyway, it's a theatrical play. Okay. And so when you're born into your family of. You don't get to choose the play. I mean, it'd be pretty great if you got Hamilton. But some of us didn't get Hamilton. I sure didn't. I got a play that nobody would actually want to watch. It was a dysfunctional play. It was a play filled with pain and suffering. But it's the one that I was born into, and I had no choice over that. And so when we come into whatever play we're born into, we are given a role in that play. Every family member is an actor in the play, and the play is already written. And the role that you are given as a baby, you don't actually have a choice in. It's just handed to you. In most plays, we'll talk about what the idyllic or healthy play would look like. But for most of us, we were just handed a role that we didn't choose. And there are so many different roles that we could have been given here. Just a couple. You might have been the golden child. So what your caregivers did was they projected onto you all the things they never did in their own lives because of their own fear. And they wanted to make sure that you became the things they didn't become, because they don't see you as your own being, but instead as a extension of them. So you become the golden child. Others of us become the caretaker. So your role was you had no needs, and you had to take care of the needs of maybe siblings or your caregivers. Some of you became the emotional partner to one of your parents. This is quite common when two parents. Parents are not emotionally connected, and they're not getting that need met with each other that one or both of the parents will look to get that need of vulnerability and intimacy met with their child. I don't, I don't mean sexual abuse. I just simply mean emotionally making the child their number one person. And if you do that, you receive love. See, here's the thing. If you play your role, the play works. Meaning if you say your lines and you embody the role you're given, the play functions. It might not be functional, a function, a healthy rather play, but it's a functional play. And so there's a reward we get when we play our part, which is oftentimes things like love and safety and connection or some version of that. Others of us had roles like the scapegoat, so everything was your fault and you had to just take it. If you did, then you're going to get some semblance of safety. Others of us had roles like the helpless one. So your caregiver needed you to be helpless, because if you were helpless, then they had had purpose in life. And so even as you developed, they needed you to continue to be helpless so that they had had purpose and it gave them a sense of fulfillment. And so as long as you played that role, you received love. Others of you were the perfectionist. If you just performed and were perfect all of the time, you received love. Those are just some of the roles that, that, that we can have. Even something like, by the way, the class clown or the one that makes everyone laugh in the family, that can become an identified role, meaning you need to do for the family to be happy, which means there's not room for you to be other things besides that. And I just want to name. You can have multiple roles inside of your family system. I had a lot of roles inside of my family system. Like definitely the perfectionist. I was the one that had no needs, so I took care of everyone else. Parentified. Parentified simply means you take on the role of the adult and the adult takes on the role of the child. I had that role as well and a number of others. But I would say those are the three primary roles that I had. And as long as I said my lines and played those roles, the play functioned. And my play though, was quite a dysfunctional play. Now what occurs is as we grow up, we go out into the world and we actually, I want to say one other thing before I say what we. What happens when we go out into the world? So I want to just name that some of us may have grown up in a play like Hamilton. If you're saying I don't like Hamilton, well, just imagine you do like Hamilton, because it is quite well written play. But some of us did get that. And we get that when we have securely attached parents who create consistency, connection, love, attunement, and all of those wonderful things. When you have that kind of play, you're born into the play and you are a collaborator in that play, meaning you are also a writer of it. So you come into the world and your caregivers look at you and they say, what a unique little alien baby you are. I mean that in a really positive way because I think we're all kind of aliens. You are not me. You are not a reflection of me. You are your own being. And I celebrate exactly who you are. Show me who you are, and I will just celebrate it. You're different than I am. You have different interests than I do. You're maybe a little bit more spicy than I am. Like maybe you get a little more emotionally. Your emotions are more big, maybe bigger. And I celebrate that. That's what makes you who you are so uniquely you. You don't like dressing like me. You have different interests, you have different hobbies. Wonderful. So you actually get to write your own play, which means you get to be you. And in the. In a healthy family system, that's what occurs. But I just want to name that, for a lot of us, we didn't get that. If you do get that, what occurs is then you go out into the world when you're an adult and you take the play with you. Okay, so that person's taking Hamilton with them out into the world and they're saying, all right, so in my play, everyone is extremely talented. They are extremely special and wonderful. And there's room for everybody to be special and wonderful here. Everybody has the ability to access their truth and their needs, and everybody has the ability to. To take up space and so on and so forth. So that's what happens in my play. So then when I am looking for other people to join my play as my adult self, I'm going to be looking for people who are safe and attuned and loving and supportive and kind, because that's what I got in my childhood. Essentially, it's like this. You have that childhood play where everyone is involved in it, all the fun, the people in your family of origin. And then imagine you're going out into the world with this play as an adult, and they're not following you into your adult life. And of course, that isn't to say that those people aren't still in your life, but just to follow this Example that I'm giving this illustration, I'm looking for new players. I'm looking for a romantic partner or partners. I might be looking for children that I'm going to have. I might be looking for friends and community, so new people to join my play. And the structure of my play is going to be the same as the structure I once new. So we replicate the structure. So if you had that childhood, you're going to replicate a really beautiful play with ease. Now, if you're saying that wasn't me, I know it wasn't me either. For most of us, we did not have that idyllic play, and we had variations of a play that wasn't quite healthy or ideal. But again, as long as everyone participated, the play functioned. So let's say that like the example I gave of me, I had the role of being. I was also the scapegoat. So I was the scapegoat. I had meaning. Everything was projected onto me. I had no needs. I was the caretaker and parentified, and I was in some ways the golden child, like the perfect one and had to be perfect all the time. Those were the general roles that I played. So as I went out into the world to look for a partner and certainly for friends and other people in my life, it's like I was carrying that play with the role that was used to playing, and I was looking for other cast members to fill the roles that were once filled in my life. Now you might be saying, like, why would you want to replicate that play? Isn't that strange you'd want to do that? Well, this is all happening subconsciously on a nervous system level. The reason this happens is because our threat detector, the one that's the first line of defense as we go out into the world, it's resources or looks to that internal database of past information to decide if not only if we're safe or not, but the blueprint for what relational dynamics are. So it likes what it knows, and so it's going to replicate what it knows because of that. Because all. All that it thinks is, this is what love is. This is what connection is. This is what belonging is. This is what family is. So I went out into the world and I really wanted to have loving, safe, wonderful relationships where I had needs. But because of this structure of this play, what I found my found myself doing again and again and again in both romantic partners and friendships, was attracting people who filled the roles that my parents filled and that my siblings filled. So my siblings were quite cruel to me and not because they were children, not because they were bad children, but because I was the result of an affair that caused their parents to split up. And so my mother didn't take responsibility for that. So their anger that could not be projected at my mother, which was where it should have gone, went to me. So I was always wrong or unwanted or all of those things. So I found myself in dynamics, just one way this looked. In dynamics with people, usually in friend groups where I was othered a lot, like, made to feel like I wasn't really wanted. I didn't really belong. I wasn't really chosen. Everyone else loved each other, but they didn't really love me. They'd kind of not invite me to things because they played an important role that was necessary for the play to function. Then when it came to romantic partnerships, I would draw in a lot of people who had all the needs, because that's what it was like with my mother. So I would draw in people who had all the needs and were helpless in a way so that I could play my role and meet their needs because that made my play function. Or other people who I was never quite enough, for, which that supported the part of me being a perfectionist. And I'm not saying that this was comfortable. I didn't like this. But again, our nervous systems like what they know, because that's all that they know that is family or love, et cetera. And it's also a way that our nervous system is trying to make the past different. If I could just make different what happened, I'll be okay now. Like, I'll be able to escape the past. Now, what's really interesting about this is. Let's go back to romantic partnerships for a moment. The other person, like, if you're going out to. If I was, when I was going out to date. They also have a play, by the way. Everybody does. So we would show up right on a first date, and we both are holding this invisible play. And in my play, again, I had all the needs. Sorry, I had no needs. And I was the caretaker and overly focused on the other person and never got upset and never had a problem with anything because that's what I needed to do to be safe. And so that means that if I was going to be drawn to someone or compatible with them, it was likely the person who showed up. And they had the role of being helpless. They were the person with all the needs, and they were the person that was centered. And guess what they were looking for? They were looking for somebody like me who had no needs, who would fill the role they needed. And you can call that. What I used to think that was, was compatibility. And in some ways, I suppose you could say it's compatibility, but it's dysfunctional compatibility. We are, in terms of our plays, we are both meeting the role of the dysfunctional plays. And it will feel like we're compatible. It will also feel like you've known that person forever. After knowing them for a week, you're like, oh, my God, I feel like you're my home. That's because you're reminding me so much of my play. Now. If we haven't done any of our healing work yet, then if you go on a date with somebody who actually wants to meet your needs, they want you to take up space. They want to know you and see you and support you, and they think you're wonderful and loving and perfect as you are not perfect. None of us are perfect, but that you're perfectly you. We go on a date and guess what's going to happen. I'm going to be like, oh, you don't fit any role that I have. And we're going to feel incompatible. That isn't that we are actually incompatible. It's that based on the current play that I have, I don't have a role for them yet. I don't have a space for them. And so what that feels and looks like is you go on a date with this really great person and you're like, well, I don't know, it just felt kind of boring. Or I just don't think we have a lot in common, or I'm not really attracted to them. It didn't feel really exciting. And that might not be because they're not for you. It might be simply because we haven't done the work to rewrite the play yet, which I want to talk about in just a moment. And that's such a normal process. This is also why everybody, when you find yourself, yourselves in the same habituated pattern again and again and again and again, this has everything to do with this play that I'm talking about. Because until you rewrite the play, you're just going to keep searching out for those same players to come in and fill the roles that you need filled, which is why you'll notice relationally, there'll be such a pattern to the type of relationships that you are in. Now. I also want to just name that we might play different roles in different areas of our lives. Like in. It could be the same, but it. But it could also Be different, meaning in your relationship, romantic relationship, you might be the caretaker at work, you might be the class clown. Like, I make everybody laugh and then they like me. That that's the role I have there. And so it's not necessarily a global thing that one role takes over everywhere. It might be different in different areas of your life. I just wanted to name and notate that. So as we begin to heal and do the things like regulate our nervous systems, which creates internal safety when we do that. Now that I feel safe inside, I don't need to morph into something that I'm not in order to be safe. And part of playing roles is that we are actually morphing into something that we are not in order to gain some semblance of safety. If you are safe inside, that begins to allow you to be you, the you that you actually are. In healing, we are not becoming anything. We are coming home to who we have always been. We're taking off the masks that we've been wearing. We are relinquishing these roles that we had to play in order to be safe. And that's the beautiful thing about healing that's so exciting. It's once you become safer inside again, the primary root of that is regulating your nervous system to create an internal landscape of safety. When we do that, then I am safe to be me wholly and fully. And we actually begin to discover who we actually are, which is such a beautiful process. And at that time, we'll start to notice, I don't like this role. There are things about this that I actually don't want to do anymore. And it'll begin to become a natural process of rewriting this role. Another component that supports this to happen is doing parts work. So when we actually address our younger parts and we create the safety, connection, attunement, love, belonging that they never got, what happens is those parts start to feel really safe. And that means that they get to be who they actually are. So now we have our adult self being who we really are. We have our young parts being able to be integrated into us so we can fully be expressed as the unique, incredible human being that. That we've always been. And what this looks like is we start to have access to things that were inhibited in my life that looked like, for example, when I had no needs, I was disconnected from. I was never mad at anybody. I was one of those people that when someone bumped into me, I would apologize. Like, they step on my foot and I'm like, I'm so sorry. And then they would say like, why are you sorry? I literally just elbowed you in the head by accident. And I'm like, oh my. Yeah, but sorry that you did that. Sorry. My head was there attached to my neck, like literally to that point. I'm not even being trying to be funny there. I had that level of disconnect from myself. And so as I started to heal, what happened was I noticed like, wow, things actually bother me. And I started to get annoyed with stuff. Like if someone was 15 minutes late, I'd be like, you know, that's kind of, kind of annoying. I'm sitting at this restaurant by myself for 15 minutes. Like, where are you? You could have told me, at least text me that you're going to be late. And I feel agitated. This is really healthy. It is healthy to have a full breadth of human experience, meaning to feel frustration and anger and have needs. And so the need I had there was, hey, can you let me know if you're going to be late? Yeah, I live in la. There's traffic everywhere. Although I'm late often. And we should probably know that we're always going to be late because there's always traffic anyway. That's just something I'm saying for myself to notate. But I had a need and the need was, can you let me know if you're going to be late late? And my frustration was telling me that. So I was rewriting that role. It was naturally starting to happen. I am a person with needs. I'm not just easygoing all of the time. No one's easygoing all the time. And then I started to notice, like, I've come out of survival. I'm not in this hyper vigilant place and I'm actually kind of a weird person. You're probably starting to get that from this podcast a little bit. Like, I'm not just this, you know, hyper vigilant, focused on you person. I'm kind of quirky and strange and weird and I've got a weird sense of humor and that's wanted to come out. So that's more of who I am. I'm also a driven person, but I'm not driven to the point of wanting, of getting illness, which is what I was used to be doing, which is perfectionism and high drive. I'm a really driven person that also likes to go on vacation and take time off and go out with friends and do all kinds of things. So my role was changing. I was rewriting the script. That's what we all do as we begin to heal. Now, when it comes to the relationships you're already in, here's the thing. You're already in a play with all the people in your life. And in order for the play to work, everybody has to say their role, their lines, rather. And when you decide to heal, what essentially you're doing is you're saying, I'm going to rewrite this, this play. I think there can be a better one. And we're going to begin with me having a new role. And here's the thing, though, it's a domino effect, because if you change your role, everybody else has to change their role too, in order for the play to function. And this is what I call the bumpy road of healing. What begins to transpire as. As this occurs is, let's just say in romantic partnership, I see this happen a lot in a loving relationship. One person says, you know, I think I wanna do this healing work, and I'm gonna start going to therapy and maybe these retreats. And the other partner's like, honey, that's so support you. I'm so happy for you. And then there's like a moment in the healing where that person has been doing the work, is rewriting the script, and then all of a sudden they come to their partner and they essentially are essentially are saying, hey, so I've rewritten this new play. I have a new role, which means you are going to have to have a new role as well. Now I actually have needs. You're going to have to start meeting my needs now. And I actually get frustrated. You're going to have to hold the container for my frustration. And I have higher expectations of you, and so on and so forth, forth. And that person, what they didn't realize when you started to heal is that they were signing up to have to eventually do some of their own healing too. Because you're coming to them and saying, that old play doesn't work for me. That old role I had didn't work for me, which means you're going to have to change yours. And even the most loving partners are often very scared of this process because it means we're heading off into the unknown, uncharted territory. I don't know what's going to happen when we rewrite this play. And also, you're asking me to look at my own stuff that maybe I wasn't prepared to look at. And I'm going to have to go towards all of those things. So it's very common that as we heal, we might have a partner that is Resistant to it. Not because they don't want us to heal, and not because they don't want to heal themselves because they're afraid. And so that resistance might look like them being frustrated. Frustrated. It might look like them being resistant at first and saying, I don't really want to go to couples therapy, or I don't really want to X, Y, and Z. And what I want to name is that negotiation, that bumpiness does not mean the relationship is going to end. It's incredibly common as we are upgrading the family system or the play, the theatrical play that we have. What we need, though, is that the other person is. Is willing to begin rewriting it with us. And so if they are saying again and again, no, I'm not willing to. No, I'm not willing to, they won't do it. They're resisting it. They're trying to get you to go play the old role that you had then. Unfortunately, that play may have to come to an end. And that isn't. I really want to name. That isn't a failure. That's a celebration. And so much of the time in our world, we call friendships ending or romantic partnerships ending a failure. But it may have served a beautiful purpose in your life for where you both were. But if you are playing a new role now, and they are absolutely not willing to play a new role as well, the play cannot work because you're going to say different lines, and they're going to say lines that don't match up with your lines. And now it's a hodgepodge and a mess. And it's not a play. It's just two people talking over each other. And there's no collaboration in the process. It actually won't work. And the thing about healing is we can't unknow what we know. We can't unsee what we see. We can't unheal what we heal. And so there are times, this certainly isn't always the case, where there might be relationships that have to transition. A romantic one might become a friendship. A friendship might need to transition to being acquaintances and so on and so forth. And that's a celebration. It makes room for people to come in who have done the work and are willing to do the work, to meet you where you are so you can write this beautiful play, the one that both parties always deserved. And that's a really beautiful thing about healing. It's us rewriting the past together. And in terms of that bumpiness that I named the Bumpy Road, if you have a romantic partner who is resisting at first because they're afraid, and then they're like, okay, I'll get on board with this. That there's going to be a time where we're butting heads a little bit and we're trying to sort it out and figure it out. And then the roles are written and we come into this steadiness, and it's this beautiful new relationship. Harville and Helen Hendricks, who are really world renowned couples therapists, say that a healthy marriage has many divorces. And that's really what they mean by this, that we're constantly growing, which means we're constantly rewriting the play and making it better. And, you know, there are things that we want to expand on and so on and so forth. So the current play that you have is informed either in both really by your past and also by the work that you currently have done. And it's so very possible to continue to rewrite that play. I just like to say that because so much of life can feel out of our control, but the truth is, so much of it is actually in our control, too. And so we get to write the script. We get to create the life we desire and the relationships that we desire to looking for ways to work with me. There is a wait list for every program I offer. And one of the benefits is getting access to limited time, reduced pricing before it opens to the public. You can find the link in the show notes to learn more. All right, so we have Rachel back with us on this episode so we can answer some questions that you've all submitted around your roles in your family systems. Rachel, can you ask us the first one today, please?

[Rachel]

I can, and it's a question I think I could have written a few years ago. So I'm really excited to hear what you say because it probably still relates a bit to me, too.

[Sarah]

Probably me. By the way.

[Rachel]

How can we get comfortable in receiving when our. Our default system is to be a giver all the time?

[Sarah]

So a couple of things to say about this. When we've had, you know, whatever role it might be in our family system, including being the giver, there's a wide range of benefit that we got from being in that role. Right? So that role not only may have saved our lives, but that role also may have got us love and affection and attention and a sense of belonging and purpose and value. So it can be really scary at first to begin our transition out of that role because our system is going to say, and our parts are going to say, well, If I'm not in this role of giving, then what's my value? If I am not constantly being the one providing everyone their needs, then are they even going to want me anymore? Because that is how we receive love. That's how we receive belonging. We didn't get a message consistently that as we are, was worthy of receiving love by doing nothing, by literally eating, you know, brownies in the grass. I don't know if you want to eat brownies in the grass. You could, but just as we are is enough. So there's going to be some fear, tentativeness, activation around the process of removing that role from our experience. That predominant role doesn't mean that of course we are not going to meet other people's needs, but that not being our primary source of value, you and instead allowing ourselves to receive. So I just want to name that as we transition out of any of these roles that we, that we came into in our family system, there's going to be some trepidation. It's really, really normal. And because our parts are saying, if I don't do this, I'm not going to receive the love that, that I deserved. And now remember, the only way to actually change this is through disconfirming experiences. We have to consistently show those parts that it's actually different. Meaning when I step out of this role, people don't leave. In fact, they invite me in further. I want to just name this. There are going to be some people in your life whom are at first are not going to like that your transition out of that role. And the reason being is because they don't want to have to address the play. Like, imagine you have this, like, you know, I don't know this, you know, Othello, let's say it's a really, really exquisitely well written play and it's functioned for a very, very long time. And there's been a lot of benefit from Othello. Think about how many times it's been performed and how much money has been made off of it. Imagine someone sat down and said, I think that we're going to change this whole thing and rewrite it. That's a lot of work, right? To take the whole thing apart and put it back together. And so when we're changing our family systems and the roles we play in the play in particular, it's a lot of work. So if we are wanting to change our role role, the other person might not be yet on board with the process that it's going to take to change this entire play. And so because of that there might be some resistance on their part because they're afraid of what it might look like if the play is rewritten. They're afraid of the unknown in that process because what's going to happen with the relationship and they're afraid to look at their own stuff. So there's going to be some people that are going to resist the new role that we're playing because they're, they don't all out of fear because they don't want to look at it themselves and they're afraid what might actually happen. And in those situations we might notice that as we begin stepping towards having more needs and not meeting everyone's needs that they're going to try to stop us often subconsciously by saying things like, I don't know, I guess I just feel like you used to be so nurturing and now you're not. Which isn't actually true. I'm just not self sacrificing anymore anymore I'm actually having needs. Or they might say something like, I don't know, I just feel like you're asking too much of me when really you're asking very little. They're just not used to used to you asking anything of them. Now that's going to happen in some relationships. There will be other relationships you may have where other people are coming to, you might be friends with different roles that they play and in their own, you know, play. And I can tell you personally from my life, some of my best friends, I remember actually two of my closest friends said to me at different points, one in particular said Sarah, I'm not looking for a friendship where you just take care of me. I'm actually really uninterested in that I want to be able to also take care of and support you. That makes me feel good and along our way way because I wouldn't ever ask for help. And for her, she, it was making her feel very, very unfulfilled in the relationship because see, she had a healthier play in terms of friendship and really wanted it to be mutually reciprocal. And let me know that when you don't lean on me, I feel like you don't need me in the relationship and I want you to need me. And so oftentimes in our process of me leaning in, in that in in this new role needs, for example, and not just being the caretaker, that looked like us going to dinner and instead of me just asking questions for two hours, which is what I would normally do, that I would take up some space and then after we left, what I would always do is I would call her or I'd say, like, sorry, I talked about myself so much because my barometer for taking up space was off. This is really common as you're coming into this. So I felt like, you know, know taking up. You know, I started with taking up maybe like 25% of the space. She wanted me to take up 50%, of course, but I would feel like I took up 75 and I would say, oh, sorry I talked about myself so much. And she would lovingly remind me that I wasn't doing that and that it made her feel good and it makes her feel like she. She has a role in my life and that she knows me more when I lean on her and through the process of. Of actually doing that is what supported me to be able to lean into this new role of not just being the caretaker, but also being supported and receiving. And you can't talk your way into that. You need a relational dynamic where that begins to occur. You don't have to have a friend like I just named, you know, in order for. If you're saying, I don't have that friend yet, well, just know they are on the way. But you can start doing this with an animal. Can you let your animal give to you instead of just caretaking them? Can you receive their comfort? Can you receive their love? Or even receiving, when you're out in the world, a smile from someone or when anyone asks you, hey, how was your day? Instead of just saying, oh, it's fine. How was yours? That's what givers tend to do over givers. Can I pause and really see? Might I be able to take up just a little bit of space and expand on how I'm actually doing just a tiny bit? The more that we do this and then we see people don't go away, actually, because it's not my value. People actually come closer to me, and I experience deeper relational closeness. Now, again, I also want to name. There may be some people along the way in our journey as we rewrite our script who at first resist it. Then those protests, those. Some of those people will then get on board. So I just want to name that does the protest doesn't mean they're not for you. So I call that the bumpy road in a relationship. It's the renegotiation of our roles. Just like if we were to rewrite a theatrical play, it would be a lot of work. There's effort that goes into it. Even like this podcast, I know it seems like this is probably effortless. We spent many months figuring out what we were going to do here. There's effort that goes in to then have ease. Effort creates ease. And so know that that's really normal relationally, that there's effort and then there's ease. And then there might be other people whom say, I don't want to do that work. No, I do not want to change. I do not want to look at this myself. And we cannot make anyone change. There may be some relationships along the way that served a beautiful purpose in your life, and then it was time for them to transition. I feel that way about my ex husband. We were together for, for 12 years, and in so many ways he saved my life. It was the safest connection I had ever had. It was a container that I was able to heal inside of in a really profound way. I have so much gratitude for it. And I wanted to continue to grow and heal. And he was in a very different place. And there's nothing you can do about that when we hit a crossroads like that. And so that's not a failure, that is a beautiful success. And I just want to name that because as those relational dynamics transition, our culture says to people, if you've been married for 50 years, they're like, congratulations, way to go. They don't ask you what is it actually like inside that marriage. Right. And so sometimes that could be a really beautiful thing, and sometimes it's not. So things transitioning is not a failure. If you have grown and tried really hard, and yet, yet we're at this crossroads of the script doesn't work anymore, then that's a, that's a, a celebration of you rewrote the script. And that's something to be super proud of.

[Rachel]

Oh, and so many people can feel a failure. Like we have a lot of old kind of traditions that are still sort of in our systems in a way where, you know, if you're, you know, your script changes and it doesn't work out with your, you know, your married partner, it can feel like a failure, like you've done something wrong or. And actually just having that complete reframe that actually you've healed and you've brought more of yourself onto the table and it's totally okay if, if you don't match up anymore. And, and likewise in your relationships where it can feel bumpy as you're embodying more, knowing yourself more. And for me, it's really looked like not just saying yes to every request all the time and not, not Bending myself out of shape and trying to make things work for other people when they don't really work for me. I've. I've done that ever such a lot. And actually, now I'm taking up the space to say, oh, I need to just think about that. And yeah, and then I'll let you know. And, yeah, it feels very different, but it can feel frictiony and bumpy, like you say, because someone might be used to you being so generous and giving all the time. And. Hang on a minute. You used to always just say yes all the time and be so happy about.

[Sarah]

Yeah, and that's the difference between being of service and of sacrifice. We're so similar in this way. I had that same response of, I don't want to disappoint anyone. And it's not possible to be in any relationship and not disappoint people. We are going to pretty chronically disappoint people as they are going to disappoint us. And we need to build our capacity for that. And see, disappointing someone is a really normal process relationally. And doesn't mean they're gonna leave. It doesn't mean you're not valuable. Like a simple example, one of my very best friends, I was talking to her on the way to this recording today. And I was feeling pretty run down. I didn't sleep well. We were supposed to go on a double date tonight. We planned it before her mother's coming up to watch her kid. And I was really feeling like, I think it's too much for me. I just think I might wake up sick tomorrow if I do that tonight after this, I need to go home and cuddle with Truman and take a bath. And she was able to say to me, because this is very last minute, yeah, I'm disappointed, you know, and, like, her mom was going to come up and they moved their weekend around for it. So she said, yeah, I do feel disappointed, but I understand. It's okay. And I was able to say, you know, I noticed that I was. And this is literally how a conversation goes with my friends and I. This is how we talk to each other. I said, I noticed that yesterday. I really wanted to do this because I still really want to. But I was not being really realistic with my own body. And I was trying to push myself yesterday beyond what my body was saying. I think we'll probably need to rest tomorrow night. And I was saying, no, we need to go, because I really want to do this. And that's such a good learning moment for me, because I could have told you this yesterday, and that would have been better for your mom was driving an hour to be here and you and your husband, so you can go do something else tonight. And she said, yeah, I thought about that yesterday. And obviously, Juan, you'd make your own decisions. And I'm so glad that you could see that. And it's okay for me to be disappointed. It's okay. I love you. Let's do it next week. That's actually what occurs in my close relationships. We talk to each other just like that. Literally an hour and a half ago, I had that conversation. And that is a very different role for me than what I would normally do, which was like, my nerve, my immune system's a little taxed, and I would have just gone and then probably woken up tomorrow sick, because I didn't want to disappoint. And so what we learn as we come into these new roles is that's, hey, someone's not gonna not love you. Because we're imperfect. And our goal is that we can have. I know people listening might be like, wow, do you and your friends talk to each other like you're in therapy all the time? Kind of. I don't know. We also have a lot of fun, but I think that's just good communication. And then resentment doesn't build. It's literally that quick five minute conversation about it, and then we can move on. And this is what it's like to step into new roles. And as you can see, I want everyone listening. I've been doing this work a long time. Can you still see there that subtle nuance of how I was overriding my system yesterday by saying, yeah, I can definitely do it. And she said to me, are you sure? And I was like, no, no, no, I can do it. I can totally do it. I wasn't fully listening. And there's like the little flavor of that old role I played of making sure everybody else was okay. And I want to normalize that. Cause I don't want anyone listening to think like, oh, my God, you two must be perfect little human beings. Of course not. And that's what the journey looks like in terms of going from a long time ago, having zero needs. There was no way that I could ever communicate what I was experiencing and I would just suck it up to here. And so, yeah, that's what the process looks like. And we can only do that relationally. Can't just think your way into it. You have to feel your way into it.

[Rachel]

First of all, I think it's really great that you do this with your friends and you're modeling and showing that that's possible between friendship as well as romantic relationships. Because so much is often just so romantically relationship focused. And I just wanted to say, you know, I totally over focused on doing, doing, giving, giving. But then my body gave up. I was ill for so long, constantly had a cold or sinusitis or something else because I never gave my body the rest it needed. So I think you're, you're putting out important points.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And our bodies will speak up, right? They're going to say we can't do this. No, I think it's a way that the universe is like, I'm going to try to make you hear what you need to hear. Which might be like we get sick all the time. We lose our hair, we're struggling with our sleep. It's our, our, our body trying to in our psyche and our soul trying to, to wake us up and talking about needs.

[Rachel]

This next question is sort of related to that.

[Sarah]

Thank you for keeping us on track, Rachel, because this could become a four hour episode. So I'm super glad that you are keeping track of things. Let's go to the next one.

[Rachel]

Yeah. So I grew up in a family where I wasn't allowed to have emotions. When I tried to just be in the emotion, sometimes I get really overwhelmed. How do I navigate this?

[Sarah]

This one is really common. I'll say. It's also, I mean it's common for all people. I would say I just want to notate. Or that. The way that little boys are raised culturally in many parts of the world, unfortunately is to not feel like we have put these roles, these gender identities on. What does it mean to be a little boy? What does it mean to be a little girl? Blue and pink, right. Like we do that right away. Little girls, you can feel everything, except everything, anger. So you're not allowed to be angry. You can be helpless. You can be like Snow White and just be cute and helpless and sweet and you can cry, but don't you dare get angry. Now little boys, you can be tough and angry, but don't you dare cry and don't you dare have feelings. Right. These are given to children very early on. We see that like luckily television shows and movies have changed for kids now. But when we were kids, do you remember that, those, those kind of identity, those role, gender roles that were given?

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah, I do. But I also remember not even being allowed to cry. Like not being allowed to be anything other than a pretty Little girl, right?

[Sarah]

Yeah. And. And just be really sweet all the time.

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah]

So, yeah, we're, we're, we're sent this message in, in really profound ways. And so when we're in our. And just to name, there is no gender identity to emotions. We should all be feeling the full breadth of emotions. This is just the human experience to feel joyful and sad and lo. And angry. Anger is a healthy emotion. Frustration is a healthy emotion. Playfulness and silliness, all of those are really healthy experiences. But we were conditioned very young not to do that. And we're shamed in different ways, right? Like little boys are shamed in a specific way about crying versus the way little girls are shamed about it. Right? Like a little girl might be told that she's being too much and a little boy might be. Get the message that he's not being a little boy, he's being like a wuss or whatever kind of like really horrible language is given to children around their emotion. And essentially what's happening in both of those situations is we're shamed, right? So don't feel your natural feelings and find a way to push them away. And so what happens is our trusty nervous system that loves us so much, it comes in and says, I'm very sorry that your loving parent is incompetent in this area. Area. They don't know how to feel themselves. And so because of them not knowing how to feel, they can't tolerate you feeling. That's actually what's occurring here. If an adult doesn't have capacity to feel when you feel, that overwhelms them. So they have to make you stop feeling because they don't know how to feel themselves. So you're reflecting back to them what's inside of them that they don't want to look at. So they're going to do things like stop crying, you're fine, you're fine. Even a nice parent does that, right? They're bullying. They're picking on you because they have a crush on you. That's why they're doing it. And you're like, what the fuck? You wouldn't say that when you're 8 years old. Like, what the fuck? But sorry to swear that's something someone doesn't like. Sometimes I do swear, but you know what I mean, you'd be like, are you kidding me? They're bullying me. What do you mean? They like me? You're telling me that that's romantic, like that's supposed to be a good thing, but they're talking me out of my feeling, right, because they don't know how to tolerate it. So what happens is our nervous system comes in, in this trusty way, and it resources something called our dorsal vagal complex, which is our state of shutdown and immobilization. That's where apathy, worry, frustrate. Sorry, not worry, apathy, hopelessness, disconnection, feeling numb. We disconnect from our body when we're here. Dorsal is what also disconnects us from our feelings. So it literally supports us to not feel what's arising. So it's like, don't worry. I will take that feeling, and I'm going to put it in a box for you where you don't have to experience. Experience it. The thing is, though, dorsal doesn't have the ability to get rid of the feeling. It has the ability to cover it up. And this is the concept of the hierarchy of our autonomic nervous system. That when we're in heightened distress or sympathetic nervous system, that's where anxiety, worry, frustration, fear, terror, rage, all of that lives when we are in there in a pretty heightened way. And where our system can't do anything about it. The option is to either be with that perpetual dysregulation or. Or dorsal can come in and says, don't worry. I'll cover it up so you don't have to feel this. And that's what a lot of us learn to do. Disconnect and cover it up. Now, as we heal, I hope people listening don't think, oh, my God, healing sounds awful. I promise you, healing is what's gonna lead to the life that you desire. And it's. It's. And by the way, healing's not all hard. Healing's also filled with joy and excitement. Honestly, it's excitement exciting to me. I'm like, if I'm not consistently becoming more of myself, what the heck am I doing? Sleepwalking? So I always want to be growing. You open up a new thing, and you're like, whoa, I didn't know life could be like this. Cool. So anyway, just to be a little cheerleader for the healing process there. So as we heal, what's going to happen is we get rid of that dorsal, that shutdown, and now we're going to have to be with those feelings that were. Were always there. Now our work is to build our capacity to be with that. At first, it's going to overwhelm us because we are not used to it. So we have to build our capacity to hold those Feelings. And that means feeling small titrated amounts at a time. Titration simply means. Imagine we have this giant bucket. We've talked about this before, like a gallon bucket of activation or feelings, sensations, traumatic energy. It's like there's a spigot at the bottom of the bucket, and we take a small amount of that out and we metabolize it. We feel it in our body, and then we discharge it. We do something to get rid of it out of our body. That is the process of titration, pendulation, and discharge. We've talked about that in another episode. So that's what we need to begin doing. And I want to name that. At first, feeling. A small amount is going to feel really big. I can say for me, like, anger wasn't something that I was able to. I wasn't able to feel anything, but anger certainly wasn't. So when I started to come into my expression of anger or frustration. Frustration. I remember my barometer was way off. So I would. Literally. So I would. Let's. Let me find an example. Let's say that I was just feeling frustrated that my partner. I don't know. It could be something as simple as, like, why aren't you ever unloading the dishwasher? Like, I was getting frustrated about it. Like, this is not okay to me. I want you to be doing this thing. And I've asked them a couple times, and then I notice I feel frustration. So I would communicate and say, hey, it really bothers me that I've asked you this three times and you're not helping me do it. Can you please help me do that? Like, in that tone? I would. I thought I was yelling because my barometer for being in that activation was really off. I didn't have a lot of capacity for it. So I just want to name. Like, you can tell there. There was no. I was not yelling at all. I wasn't being soft and sweet, but I was being firm. But to me, that felt like a 10, because I'm not used to being at a 2. And the same will go for any emotion. Sadness. I'm not used to being at a 2, so it'll feel like a 10. And so we. That's why we want to come into small amounts of it as. As we experience this. Some ways that you can do this to come into that energy is one. Journaling. So connecting to. So we take a small amount. We connect to the emotion, the sensation, and then let your nervous system write to you about what's occurring in inside. Not Overthinking any of it. So it's not trying to be cognitive about it, but really let your nervous system write. It might write the same word over again over and over and over and over and over again. Great. That's you processing and connecting to what's occurring. Another way is put on some music that registers or connects to what's occurring inside. Because we can actually co regulate with music. And it's almost like it's. The music is taking our hand and walking us through the autonomic experience we're having and ushering us out of it. It's literally like you're being danced by the song and you don't have to actually be a good dancer. I remember I went salsa dancing once and I don't know how to salsa dance and I was so freaked out. And this guy came over to dance with me and he was wonderful dancer. And I was like, I don't know how to do this. Please go away, don't ask me to dance. And he was like, just try not to do anything. Let me lead you. And when I was trying to do something, I was dancing really poorly. When I tried not to do anything, everything was fine. And so music can actually be that for us if we allow it to. As we move through our nervous system, just let the music dance you through the activation. So tolerable small amounts. And then using regulating resources to process it through. That's really what the process is like. Until we get to a point where I can hold a 2, I could also hold a 10 in activation around and of these experiences. But we must come into it slowly.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I use music a lot and have playlists for dorsal and sympathetic and freeze and ventral too. And it does make such a difference.

[Sarah]

Such a difference. That's something that we talk about inside of our programs is we have people create playlists that regulate their nervous system and attune with the state they're in. It's such a powerful thing to do.

[Rachel]

Okay, so we have one last question. If someone from your past comes back to your life and apologizes, how do you know if it's genuine? And if they actually did the nervous system work and healed as they claim? How do you forgive?

[Sarah]

Those are two separate questions. First thing that I want to say is when you're regulated, you can connect autonomically to another person. So we go beyond what they're saying with their words and we feel what's happening in their body. And you can tell if I'm regulated. My body is such a compass. I Can tell when you're speaking to me if you're being. Not to put you on the spot, Rachel, but I can tell if you're being genuine or not. I can tell if you were to say, I'm so sorry, like I was telling you about my friend in our conversation. So sorry about this. She can tell if I actually mean that or not on an autonomic level. So the more we're connected to our nervous system, you can really see sense what's occurring in someone else's nervous system. And that's the beautiful thing about this work. It's like that threat detector. It's a barometer for can I trust you or not? Or is what you're saying genuine? So we actually want to connect. Not to the words, but how does it feel when they say the words? And we want to ask ourselves this when we're regulated. I just want to notate. If you're in a young part, the young part may be like, I don't trust you. I don't trust you. I don't trust you because you're reminding me of a person I. I couldn't trust. But when I'm regulated, what am I getting from you on an autonomic level as you're communicating this? The other thing that I want. And of course, what, what work have they done to. To show us that they. That they have. Have done the work? The other thing that I want to say about forgiveness is there is such a spiritual bypassy thing out there. And I'm an incredibly spiritual person, so I'm not, you know, dissing spiritual spirituality center of my life, certainly. But there's a message out there that we should just have loving kindness and we've talked about this before and just love everyone and forgive everybody, because that's being a high vibration or whatever. That's so such bypassing work. And it's not actually autonomically possible to forgive somebody unless we have experienced the appropriate response to what they did. That is bypassing. If you do that. What we must do in order to forgive is we have to allow our system, as I just named, to feel into what was appropriate to what occurred. And when you can feel into that in a therapeutic container, you can do it on your own. You can do it with, you know, someone like me or Rachel or, or a clinician or practitioner. When you're able to feel that, and then you allow it to come out of your body fully, you're allow body to express the way it wanted to. Maybe it wants to make a sound about that, maybe you want to say something about that in the container that then can leave your body. And the result of that is then I can actually forgive. But you cannot forgive unless you have the appropriate response to what occurred to you, which might be to say that's not okay. It might be to feel the sensations of anger. It might be to let your body do what it wanted to do, which was to push the person away. And we're not actually going to push someone away. This is the mammalian experience in a therapeutic container of letting our system do that, or to say no, or to feel into my strength around the thing. And it also, by the way, might be to communicate to that person. Eventually after doing this work, then I might have a secondary component of this, which is to communicate to that person. But the somatic piece of this is a necessity. Once that has processed through, then I can actually release them emotionally. Emotionally, because forgiveness to me is really about releasing the emotional and energetic tie or cord to that person. And so meaning I release that what occurred. And maybe I still want to be in connection with you. And sometimes it's I release that cord and I release you. In my process of forgiveness of my mother, my biological father, my siblings, my stepfather, all. All who did pretty horrific things to me that was necessary for me to access the healthy aggression that was inside of me that was causing me so much suffering, also chronic illness and unresolved trauma, to process that out of my body. Now, I didn't do that with any of them in real time. And then it was what allowed me to disconnect the emotional cord that I had with them so that I could actually release them. And, you know, none of those people are in my life anymore because they aren't safe people. But it doesn't mean for you that you have. Have to release those people. It might be that they. They're connected to you in a healthy way. So that's so important to understand about.

[Rachel]

Forgiveness and so powerful to know the process so that it's not. You're not stuffing stuff in and overriding which then the resentment would come out sideways anyway. It's actual full digestion processing and then moving on in the way that feels right to you, whether you want to remain connected or. Or not. So, wow, Amazing. Sarah, thank you for such a powerful episode.

[Sarah]

Thanks, Rage. This was so nice. I. I know this was a longer Q and A than, than normal, but it, it felt like a really fruitful one. So thank you so much for being here. And remember everybody, you make sense all parts always.