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How Trauma Can Keep Us From Our Embodied Spirituality
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Diving into the often overlooked but deeply interconnected realms of science and spirituality, Sarah guides listeners through a transformative exploration. She underscores how both domains intertwine, particularly in the context of trauma and healing. Many of us desire to embody the core elements of spirituality—connectivity, presence, love, and surrender—but struggle to actually do so. This episode will address the common misconceptions and challenges associated with spirituality, including the impact of trauma on our capacity to experience deep levels of connectivity. She critiques the prevalent shaming in spiritual contexts, advocating for a more empathetic and inclusive approach.
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A
Hi, I'm Sarah and welcome to youo Makesense. I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner, an expert on trauma resolution, attachment parts work, and nervous system regulation. This podcast is a manual to understanding your human experience so that you can navigate the world with freedom, ease, empowerment, and create the life that you desire. Remember, you make sense all parts always. This episode is something that I've been wanting to do for a really long time. We're going to be talking about the interconnectivity of science and spirituality, and it's something that I don't think is talked about enough, you know, here inside you Make Sense. The podcast. And of course, in every program that I offer, we really focus a lot on the science behind trauma and healing as a whole and giving you tangible tools to do that. So we look at research and, and data points on. On practical things that are necessary to facilitate the. The healing we want. And not only that, but to help us step into the life that we desire. But something that I don't talk about a lot is that my spiritual life actually is the center of my life. Truly, it is the center of my life. And I don't name that all the time, but it's really the driving force behind everything that I do. It's the driving force behind why I created this podcast. And I'm really excited to talk about how science and spirituality are not different things. They're really two and the same. In many ways, science is just explaining what spirituality is. And when it comes to our nervous systems, there is such a correlation to the practice of spirituality and being and living a spiritual life. So without further ado, let's get into it right now. The first thing that I just want to talk about is what is spirituality? I think that in many ways, religion has hijacked a lot of the pure nature of what it means to be a spiritual being and what it means to live a spiritual life. I will also say, just a caveat to that, that there are beautiful things about religions. I grew up in actually evangelical Christianity, and there were things about it that today and even then I really disliked and do not orient to or condone in any way. And the connectivity that I got, the community that I got, the singing, all of that was really, really supportive for me and regulating of my nervous, you know, like all things, nothing is fully good or fully bad. Usually it's somewhere in the middle. But I just want to. Want to name that there's a lot of things that religion has done to strip the core of spirituality and to give spirituality A really bad name. But I believe all the great spiritual teachers like Jesus and Buddha and Muhammad and of course, there's been so many others over the course of human existence. The names that I don't even know what they were all trying to teach about was spirituality, which is three real things. So things that I constitute as the pillars of spirituality. One number one connection. So it's connectivity to ourselves, connectivity to our higher self. So you might call that your soul. Connectivity to nature. So the world that we come from, we are made of stardust. And as is everything on this planet. So the interconnectivity of, you know, I. My body will go back to this earth and become, you know, depending on how I'm not going to be embalmed just in case I pass away and I don't have a living will yet. Loved ones don't embalm me. But if my body is put into the earth, I become a tree, right? I go back into the place that I came from. So connectivity to the earth and connectivity to other people. So interconnectivity. I am you and you are me. We are the same, sharing that energy. And then connectivity to the greater thing, this great mystery. It is just a mystery, isn't it? None of us actually know. But if you've ever felt into this thing, beyond what is visible, this thing that is greater than us, if you've ever touched it, it is unnamable. There are no words for it. And there's been, you know, many in my life where I've had profound spiritual experiences and met that moment of what felt like meeting creation. And I cannot put that into words what that is. But it's the highest form of connectivity I've ever felt in my life. So spirituality is about interconnectivity, and that begins with connectivity with ourselves. What else is spirituality about? Presence. Being here in this moment and with every breath, breathing in the next one. Only this one. Just being here. By the way, as I name these things, aren't these things that animals are so good at? So good at, right? Being connected, being deeply present, being here. And then lastly, love. So to be. To know deeply that I am love and you are love, and all things are love. And we are all connected to each other. And when I think of animals, they're so good at all three of those things. I once heard Edgar Tolle say. He said, the reason I think we love dogs so much, but all animals is because you look into the eyes of a dog and you see the whole universe. Because what is my sweet Dog Truman doing. And Jerry, you know, it's really weird. It's not weird at all, actually. And this is appropriate for the spirituality episode. My dog Jerry died a year ago. Had him for 10 years. And my dogs were the center of my healing journey, actually, my first real secure attachments and so important in my healing process. And it still feels funny to just say Truman's name without Jerry. But to me, that's a deep form of interconnectivity. He is still very much alive. We know energy doesn't die, right? So it's very strange to me when we say that person's dead or that being is dead. They might not have that body, but their energy is somewhere. And that's the great mystery of it all. The other thing that I want to name is spirituality as its core. Actually, I didn't even think about this till right now, but I wasn't planning on saying this, but spirituality as its core is a surrender into the truth that we don't know anything. That's really the truth. We know nothing. I feel like the older people get, sometimes the more wise they become. Certainly for myself, I have noticed that as I get older that it feels really good to say, I don't know anything. What do I know? Not much. And to feel safe, to be able to have that as the truth. We can only know that when we're anchored in truth, and we can only surrender when we're anchored in safety inside of ourselves. But those are the real markers of what spirituality is. So interconnectivity to self, others in the world around us, presence, being in this moment, just this moment, feeling love for self, others, and everything around us. And surrender, surrender into life, letting the river of life carry us. And so when I say those things, you know, my friends who are atheists, I love my atheist friends, if I said those things to them, they'd say, like, yeah, I want those things. And also, by the way, a lot of them are just fully living them. So I would say I laugh with them because I'm like, you're spiritual. You are. And they're like, oh, no, I'm not. But anyway, I think that those are the major things of what spirituality is. And aren't those things that we all want. Those are things that I want more than anything else in my life. Those are the things I want. And so I want to talk about why so many of us are disconnected from that or why it feels so challenging. And there can be a lot of spiritual shaming out there. That messaging, like, well, you're anxious right now, or you're disconnected, or you're depressed right now because you're not being faithful enough, you're not praying enough, you're not meditating enough. And that's the problem. Basically, you're the problem. You're not being spiritual enough. That's why you don't feel the connection. And that is completely and wholly untrue. What science actually tells us is the reason why so many of us struggle to access our spirituality, to really feel the things I named is, is because of trauma. So many things comes back to trauma, my friend. So many things. And remember, all of us experience trauma in our lives. None of us go through life unscathed by it. So trauma, remember, is the overwhelm of stimulation in our bodies. So overwhelm of energy as a result of something that happens. And if that experience isn't able to resolve in the. In the aftermath of it occurring. And the reason it doesn't resolve is because you don't have safety. And you don't have something called a mutually empathic witness. So that's a safe other who can hold the container for you. So it can process through. If you don't have those things, it gets stuck and stored and locked in time. And it lives in an internal. It lives in your body, but the information about it lives in this internal database. And so what occurs is your system says, never again am I going to allow myself to be exposed to things like that. And so much of trauma involves connection. Trauma is relational, meaning it happens with others the majority of the time. Even if I'm in a car accident with someone I don't know, it involved them, right? A surgery, it involved a doctor. So most trauma is relational. And remember, what is spirituality? It's relational. It's about connection. So if my nervous system learned connection is not safe, then guess what's going to happen. It's going to keep me from that interconnectivity and connection because it's saying it's not safe. Now, what else happens with trauma? Well, when we experience trauma, our system thinks that the past is happening now or could happen at any given moment. So the result of that is, you know, when or when we're out in the world, we have this beautiful thing called neuroception. It's a threat detector in our brainstem. It's looking out into the world to see if we're safe or not all the time. And it looks to that internal database. We all have to decide. So for many of us, we are triggered. When you're triggered More often than not, you are traveling back to the past, which means you are not in the present if you are dysregulated, but you are safe, meaning you are actually safe in your present life. That is a clue that you are not in this present moment. You are somewhere in the past. Your system thinks the past is still happening, so you are not present or you are in the future trying to prevent against danger. So what is spirituality? It's about presence. What is, what is dysregulation and trauma lacking presence. So we lacked connection, we lack presence, and we most of the time lack self love. What is spirituality about love? And why do we lack self love? Because most of the time we internalize the things that happen to us. So instead of saying that thing is bad, I am bad, I must not be lovable because humans are meaning making creatures. I must have done something wrong. I must be inadequate. I must not belong because I was bullied. I must not be good as I am because I had to be perfect in my house. So disconnects us from that inherent truth that you are deeply, deeply loved. So when we have yet to fully embody our healing work, we're going to struggle to embody our spirituality. And I want to normalize this. And this is why I say that a lot of the times that regulating your nervous system unlocks the life that you are desiring, including your ability to connect deeply in your spiritual practice and make your spiritual practice a personal relationship with the divine, with source, with the mystery. I don't know what you want to call it. With love, with God, with whatever. It's all the same thing to me. It's about a personal relationship. It's not about dogma and rules. I think the reason why so many religions have held onto rules is because it is coming from a place for people of I feel out of control inside. So if I can just control others, it will give me a sense of safety. Because remember, the last part of spirituality is that surrender. I didn't actually get to that. Let's go back to that last part of spirituality is surrender. And so surrender, what does that mean? I am relinquishing control. I am letting myself be carried instead of carrying myself. Now let's think about trauma for a second here. When we experience trauma, it is overwhelm in the face of helplessness. And so to be surrendered was a helpless experience. It was not safe. So what does our system learn to do? It says, never again will I surrender for myself. For so many years, it was impossible to let people help Me, even as a deeply. My spirituality has been the center of my life, my whole life. And as a kid, it was my only friend. I think that perhaps a lot of people with trauma histories like mine may have had that experience, but it really was my only friend. And the beings that I felt like were around me. I don't know what you call them. Maybe you could call them angels or guides or something. Felt like they were helping me through the horrors that truly were hell on earth. I couldn't escape my house, and I. And I knew I could turn to it and it would be there. And I, very early on, started using writing as a way to communicate to it. And what I found was it would often write back to me. This is just the idea of channeling. And I don't want you to think, oh, my God, Sarah's into some weird stuff. If you've ever had something you've ever done. By the way, I'm channeling right now. Anytime I ever speak to you, I'm channeling. We don't do scripts here. I just speak and let things arise through me. If you've ever listened to a musician or an artist creating art, they're a lot of. Not the whole time, but a lot of times channeling, like, letting it come through you, or you give a friend advice, and then they say, hey, what did you just say? And you say, I don't know. I don't know what I said. Channeling. So anyway, I used to channel through writing. I still do very big part of my life and would write to the universe and then. And then have it right back to me. And I found that it did, and it wasn't me writing, and still isn't. And what would often happen in that process was I was trying to be really surrendered to it. Like to surrender to what the universe had for me, which I very much am. But the last bit of this surrender, which was really hard, was what I was doing was I was holding myself while I was letting the universe hold me. I was holding myself while I let others hold me. So I was never actually surrendered. Right. Because when we experience trauma, it's not safe to surrender. And so, again, for all of these reasons, this is why so many of us struggle with our spirituality, struggle to step into it. And what I can tell you is embodying the type of spirituality that's right for you. I don't know what that is for you, but I think that each of us are deeply spiritual creatures and finding an avenue that helps us to experience interconnectivity presence, love and surrender is really important because those are the things that our beingness desires the most. So I want to talk about when we've experienced. We're going to talk in a little bit at the end. So, like, what do I do if I have all this trauma and I want to experience spirituality more? I struggle with trust or surrender or connection or presence or love. We'll talk about that in a minute. But the first thing I just want to talk about around this is the importance of processing anger at the universe. That might seem really taboo and strange, but wow, is it really imperative. Also, I work with a lot of people like myself who grew up in religion whom had to reorient themselves to spirituality. And a lot of times it means going through this divorce process from their religion. And sometimes they end up back at that religion again, but really allowing themselves to have all of their feelings around the things that weren't okay. The shaming that occurred, the messaging that we're a sinner, that we're this bad thing and that we're, you know, lowly and if we can just be perfect, which isn't possible because you're a sinner, then you'll be okay. Or, well, you know, all these messages that are really shaming, shaming of our bodies, our sexuality and so on. But whether you experience religion in the past or not, I think that it is very common to have anger at the universe, anger at the thing that's bigger than us, anger at God, whatever again you call it, is really normal. Why? Well, because this is a relationship, right? Spirituality is meant to be a relationship. And it's really healthy to be angry at your parent. It would be very unhealthy. If someone said to me, I have never been angry at my mother or father. I would say, would you like to work with me for a little while? Because that's suppression. It's not possible. It's healthy, actually. Anger is the same as joy and aliveness and curiosity. There is no good or bad emotion. That would be very strange, wouldn't it, if this great mystery that created existence made bad emotions. That that anger is a really beautiful and healthy one. And so it's really important to let us access that healthy aggression. That's something Peter Levine calls our anger is our life force energy. And it's really an act of self love to access healthy aggression. Healthy aggression is our ability to say that wasn't okay or to defend ourselves or to say, you know what? It was so fucked up that I had to experience that in my Life. I am so pissed off that my mother, who I really love, made me be her mother. Like, it's not fair. I know she did the best that she could. She did the best she could, but it was like she was a child. So I didn't get a mom or it's really not fair that my dad died or my mother died or they left or whatever, or they hurt me. It is so important. That's just not just in our childhood, in our lives, to let ourselves be with that so we can release it. Resentment. Have you ever met somebody who's, you know, I don't know, they're 70 years old and they're still so angry about something that happened when they were 15. It'll kill you, literally. Because internalized anger becomes illness in our bodies. And the reason why that's still occurring is because they haven't accessed the healthy aggression. And when we access healthy aggression, we actually get to release them. So this is an act of self love, and it's a act of love for them as well to be able to come into that. So that's really important, including being angry at the universe. I detest the messaging that this happened for you. Oh, my God. I can't tell you how many people I had say that to me along the way. And they were people who never experienced the things I had. And it made me so angry that somebody could so flippantly say, no, this happened for you to serve your soul as highest good. And I wanted to say. And, you know, excuse me for giving details, I wanted to say, well, if you were trapped and violently sexually abused for a decade, would you say that? Would you say that that happened for you? So again, you don't have to have a history like mine for this to be true. That I do not think it happened for a reason. That someone experienced, you know, a hate crime that didn't happen for you. I don't think it happened for you, that you grew up in, you know, a civil war. I don't think it happened for you that you grew up in poverty. I don't think it happened for you that you got cancer. I don't think it happened for you. You get it? I can go on and on and on and on. So I just want to name that because there's. There's just so much gaslighting and shaming stuff out there. And it's really healthy to say that. And I said this along the way so much. I said I would get angry and tired on the journey, and I would say in my Therapy, Therapy work, but also to the universe, like, in tears. It's not fair. I'm a really good person, and it's not fair that this happened to me. It's not fair. It's not fair that I have to struggle with this or be on the sidelines of life or whatever it is. That is not being a victim. Like, oh, playing a victim. Because, you know, people say that all the time. Like, stop being a victim. If you tried to bypass the truth that you were a victim, you are bypassing a very integral part of the healing process. So we don't want to stay in this place of not having agency. But it is so important to name what's true. Yeah, there are people who've had a much easier life than every single one of you listening right now. And I don't care how great your life was. There's somebody whose life was easier. And yes, there are many people who had a harder life. But being with what was is really important and processing the anger that you might have towards the universe around it. Not being fair is vital. And from what I know, in my own very close relationship to this universe, I've only ever felt it be overjoyed in the expression of that. Because the expression of that leads to greater interconnectivity and connection. And this great mystery wants us to be connected. So the more that we're able to process it, we're more able to surrender. We're more able to be present, we're more able to be connected. We're more able to experience love. So that is absolutely vital. And I just want to name a couple other things that helps us to unlock the connectivity to the universe and our spirituality. And one of them that we must focus on is regulating our nervous system. I am annoying. I know I'm annoying because I talk about the profound nature of nervous system regulation all the time. It. Remember, your nervous system creates your thoughts, feelings, sensations, behaviors. So everything you ever do as a result of it, the perception of yourself, others in the world around you, it creates your whole experience. And it either keeps you locked in a prison or set free. Your nervous system does that. So the more that you focus on regulating your nervous system, actually, I feel like every spiritual, every place of prayer, spiritual practice, you know, like you go into, even it should be in every room you go into to meditate, do a sound bath, yoga, church, temple, whatever it should like. The first thing it should say is, nervous system regulation is our number one value. Because if everybody focused on regulating their nervous system, you would be more Connected. Because the more you regulate your nervous system, the more that your system sees I am safe. So your nervous system no longer stands in front of you. It stands at your side. You are safe to connect with all things to yourself, you to the different parts of you, to other people, to the world around you in the universe. So it checks that box presence. When you are regulated, you are in this moment. Only this moment I'll never forget. And some of the most spiritual moments I have had are in healing containers. Truly, truly. Actually, two of the most spiritual moments I ever had. Two high moments of ventral. I remember them vividly. One was a long time ago. It was my first high moment of ventral. And I had tears rolling down my eyes. I think I might have said this in another episode. I was in, like a 10 ventral, highest level of ventral. And I said, there will never be words for the hell that trauma and dysregulation is. And there will also never be words for how extraordinary the most ordinary moment can be. When you are safe to be here and to be alive. I don't think there's anything more spiritual than that. Second one was I had a moment where I completed an incomplete experience with a mentor of mine. Maybe one of the most skilled somatic clinicians I know. He's been my mentor for a long time. And I completed an experience, one of the most intense ones from my childhood. And there was a peace that happened. This peace, like, actually is in Scripture. Peace that passes all understanding. That's what it was. And I was in this. My eyes were closed and I was in this place that was total darkness. Not just like darkness with my eyes closed. Like this place of total darkness. Full, full, full regulation. And with tears streaming down my face. I can't really describe it in words, but all I kept saying was, I am everything and I am nothing. I am everything and I am nothing. I think I might have said that for 20 minutes straight. Just with tears rolling down my eyes. I can feel it when I bring it back to life and I open them. And he said, I don't know if you need to do psychedelics. It was really funny because that's what I was experiencing. He facilitates some of that. And it was maybe the most spiritual moment I've ever had. Where I feel like I know what's going to happen when I leave this body. So, anyway, my point is, regulation brings us into the things we're wanting. Light, connection, presence. You can only be in presence when you're regulated. So, see, the imperative nature of that, it connects us to love for ourselves, self compassion and love for others. And it is the only way you can surrender. It is not possible to surrender when your system doesn't think you're safe. But when you find safety. This is something I always said, I just would say like I just want to feel like I'm flowing down the river of life. I don't want it to be hard anymore. It was hard because I was gripping life because I didn't feel safe. So when you have safety, you can relinquish the gripping and actually surrender. So that's what regulating our nervous system does. And the second thing is showing our parts that the past is over. So part of, you know, when we experience trauma, we have these parts of ourselves that are stuck in those experiences. They don't know that those things are over. Listen to the episodes I have on parts work because it'll give you helpful tools to do this. But our work is to show those parts that the past is actually over through regulating our nervous systems, through greeting them through something I call internal co regulation and bringing them here in the presence with us. And when we do that, they can have full presence just as we can. And then the last thing that's necessary to really build our spiritual experience is building the relationship with source. You know, it's a relationship. That's what it really is. So I want you to think about this for yourself. How can you begin stepping into connection with you and connection with nature and connection with others and then with source as well. So simple examples, connection with you. Can you just even notice the food you're eating coming into your body? Connect to your body. Put your hand on your chest and feel yourself breathing. Connect to that. Even journaling is a connecting to self. Connecting to what I am feeling inside and letting that be be expressed. Connecting with nature. Can you go into nature and actually connect to a tree like I touched? It's a tree in my front yard. I touch her every day and I talk to her. Not every day. Some days I don't. I'm lying. So we don't talk every day. Tree, if you're listening to this, I know, I just didn't tell the truth. Sorry I hadn't talked to you yesterday. Anyway, trees touch a tree, they're alive. Touch the earth. Connection. Connection with an animal. If you've got a pet, connect deeply with them or watch an animal in nature. Connection to source. What makes you feel connected to it? For me, I channel in writing, pray, meditate, and then practicing presence. We do that through regulating our nervous system. So importance of that. So connecting. Connecting with it deeply. And then what we want to see is can we surrender into it a little bit? So literally, it might be laying on the earth and letting the earth hold you a little bit more. And then if this feels, you know, like something that is resonant for you, just talk to whatever this is. This thing is bigger than you. And if that seems silly and weird, still try it. I invite you to try it out and ask it for help and ask it for support. And you can do that in nature, too. Remember, everything is energy. So the energy that you put out is the energy we get back. And if we put out the energy of needing support, we tend to get that back. And then life becomes. Martha Beck talks about this a lot. It becomes this magical adventure that oftentimes we don't realize how much we are the magician, how much power that we have to create magic in our lives, to draw things in. And it's our spirituality that allows for it. It's the only thing that has allowed me to certainly to step into the life that I am desiring. Along with this healing work, they go hand in hand. I don't think you can have one without the other. And when you have both, life opens up in beautiful, beautiful, beautiful ways. And it guides you, right? When you're connected deeply to yourself, your soul, it guides you in the direction you're meant to go. That's why we created this podcast. Not because I thought it would be a cool thing to do, but because there was this thing inside of me that says, you have to do this. You must do this. And so we become good at listening and surrendering, and then we do the thing which we're doing right now. I don't know how well this is going to do. I don't know. I just know that I'm supposed to do it, so I'm doing it. And then I surrender to the outcome, knowing that if I am guided in this direction, that I'll be cared for and that it's going to be okay. And again, only the interconnectivity of our healing work and spirituality is what allows this to really blossom in a beautiful way. So I invite you to step into it in any way that feels valuable or. Or not valuable, possible for you. And a reminder that everything about you makes sense, all parts, always. And your current orientation towards your spirituality does, too. Want to get more of these tools straight into your inbox? I send free teachings most Wednesdays that cover a wide range of topics, from relationships and purpose to Parts work and connecting with your truth. Use the link in the show notes below to join my email. Female Community all right, welcome back, Rachel. It is good to have you here today to talk about spirituality and the nervous system and healing and all things. I am really excited to get to the questions that we have today, but first I just want to ask you how has this worked help your relationship with your spirituality?
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B
For 20, 20, 20 something years I was on a spiritual journey and bringing in the nervous system work. It literally felt like it made those 20 years come to life. So I didn't feel like I made much progress in my emotional world until I added in the nervous system stuff and then all of a sudden the regulation that I had allowed all the spiritual stuff to find its place within my body. It felt like I had all these spiritual ideas and notions but. But it didn't sink further down really. And yeah, the nervous system work kind of allowed it all to slot into place and come alive for me rather than just be up here.
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A
Thank you for sharing that, by the way. Everyone listening. I asked Rachel questions like this and it's on the spot. We didn't, I know that sounded rehearsed, but I didn't tell her I was going to do that. But I really appreciate you sharing that, Rachel, because I know your spiritual journey like mine has been such a big part of your life and just for people to hear how this work actually amplifies that is is, is really important. So let's get to the questions and see if other folks have got some other things they want answered around this work too.
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B
Yeah, they sure do. I've been on a spiritual journey for a lot longer than my nervous system journey and I promise I didn't write this question.
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A
This is just Rachel. It's all Rachel. Every question we've ever submitted is just really Bradley, Theresa, myself, Rachel, Natalie, Rachel. We have many Rachels on our team. Basically our whole team is just submitting questions. Just kidding. We actually use questions you give us. So anyway, go ahead Rachel.
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B
But I love this question. The progress that I've made in the last year learning about my nervous system has been unsurpassed. I do however, need some advice on how to integrate spirituality with nervous system healing.
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A
So you know, I really, I hope that the word I name say right now is not going to be triggering to some people. It may so just just want to say in that, but I really think of healing work as holy work. And I don't use the word holy in any religious context whatsoever. What I mean by that Is. It's spiritual work. It's. It's. It's the most. The work of the highest form of connectivity possible happens when we are deeply regulated. When you are in your ventral vagal complex at a high state, you are connected to everything, all things. Yourself, your soul, if you call it a soul, Nature, others, everything. You are connected to what's actually true, which is that we are all made of stardust. That we are. And you don't need to take a psychedelic to have this experience, like a lot of people do, psychedelics, so they can experience, experience that full connectivity to all things. Well, the truth is that is what you get from being deeply regulated. But you don't have to take a drug to do it. You feel it all the time and to varying degrees. Of course, you're not going to feel a 10 out of 10, the most regulated moment you've ever had in your life. But if you think about for a second a moment of awe that you've had, like just pure awe or feeling so deeply connected, there's been moments where I've felt so much connection that it's. It overwhelmed my system in a. In a beautiful way. Not overwhelmed like I left my body, but just so filled with it that it would just bring me to tears. Like unnamable, right? When we say thing, this. This thing is unnamable. Well, the, the love of the universe, whatever you call that, is unnamable. There's no words for it. And the direct access to that, if you want direct access to it, is high levels of regulation of your nerves. Nervous system. You cannot physiologically experience it without high, high forms of regulation. So that's the thing we're looking for, which is why I say all the time, well, I don't think there's anything more spiritual than this work. And it's science, right? But to me, science, spirituality is the same thing. We're calling it different things. But much of science explains what spirituality is all about. So if we want to unlock our spiritual journey and have a de. Deep personal relationship with the universe, God, whatever you call that thing, a personal relationship, which is what most spiritual traditions talk about, having a personal relationship. Well, first I must have a relationship with my own vessel that I live inside of, and that then allows me to have the relationship because I'm open and available with the universe. So if we want to deepen our spiritual practice, part of the spiritual practice must be regulating our nervous systems. And that's why I think it's holy work or spiritual work or whatever we want to call it. And I've watched people come alive. Like I've literally watched people beginning with myself going from being someone sleepwalking through life or in a consistent hell to coming alive. And so some of these, I just. There's a. There's been a lot of great spiritual teachers, you know, in the, in the world. Like Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, like all of these people were wonderful spiritual teachers. And of course many, many, many, many more over that, that I'm not naming over the course of human history. And what they were really teaching about was nervous system regulation and connectivity really. Right. Like coming into, back into this place of high levels of connectivity. And when we're there, I am all things and all things are me. And so there's so many ways that religion has, has harmed people and gotten things really, really wrong. And there was a lot of great teachers involved in all of these, these, these religions that I think probably would have hated a lot of the religion that was then created from them. But I think of healing as in a lot of ways is when we're struggling, that's hell to me. Hell isn't some underworld in some far off place where you're on fire for eternity. Hell, because I've experienced it, is being trapped inside of this perpetual place you cannot escape. That feels worse than dying, truly. And for me, I did not want to be here because that felt like freedom from the suffering. And, and what I think that heaven is that a lot of religions talk about is really freedom from that here on earth. It's not something that we're supposed to like. Well, when, you know, my grandmother used to sing this song When We all get to Heaven. It's a hymn I feel for her. My grandmother had a lot of trauma. She was the most important person in my life as a kid. Severe sexual abuse and stuff. And there wasn't access then when she was a kid and she was deeply religious and I just wish deeply for her that she would have had this work because it is what sets us free. Like the heaven is here, it's not somewhere else. And so if we want to expand into the life we're desiring and feel more spiritually connected, this is the way. And by the way, you know, like your version of that can be one of my versions that is going into nature. Like how humbling it is to be in nature and see I am it and it is me and I'm connected to everything. It's a high form of spirituality. So I just went in 17 directions, but all seem really important to me. And the more we regulate, the more we come into this.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah, it's like the regulation it creates the fertile ground to then be able to feel that connectivity that are just things that we read in a book otherwise. And I realized that the spirituality, my seeking of that was so that I could escape from my body, so I could escape from suffering. And actually, really, I just needed to know how to be regulated. So then being here becomes joyful and fun and alive. And that was really what I was looking for. But I didn't know what I was looking for because I didn't know it existed. So.
- [40:38]
A
And that's why I think in a lot of religions, people are coming into it really afraid and from dysregulation. So what does it give people? Belonging when they haven't had belonging. And then the second thing it gives people is control. This is where it goes awry. Right. Like, if I can control others, you're bad, you're good, you're bad. And it's all about rules. That's not what spirituality is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about interconnectivity and presence. And how do we get interconnectivity and presence? Through our ventral vagal complex regulation. So I say this a lot, but when we're dysregulated, it's like our nervous system stands in front of us. So if you can see my hands, I'm putting my hands in front of me. Like a wall, it blocks anything from coming in and also things from going out. Which means it blocks me from feeling interconnectivity, love of the universe, presence, all of that. And when I'm regulated, it's like my nervous system stands at my side. And it is standing at my side allows me to step towards things, to receive things, to be connected to everything and really feel the experience of that. So it's profoundly important to embody our spirituality to have regulation.
- [41:49]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier about some people using psychedelics to feel that connectivity. And the next question is asking about that. How does plant medicine, such as mushrooms or ayahuasca work in terms of the nervous system and releasing stored trauma? Is this incompatible with titration and consistent incremental release via regulation tools?
- [42:16]
A
All right, complex question. So the deal with trauma work is less is more. You never, ever want to overwhelm your nervous system, because what is trauma overwhelming your nervous system? So trauma work is actually much more gentle than people think trauma work is. I am not going to overwhelm my nervous system. And I'm actually Being control of it. So titration is the simple explanation of this is imagine that you had a gallon of water. That jug is filled with all of the traumatic energy stored in your body from your life. When trauma isn't released, it gets stored. So that's traumatic energy. What we never wanna do is dump the gallon jug over us because that overwhelms us. Which is why if you go to talk therapy sometimes and someone's like, tell me more, tell me more. You keep talking about the story, and then you end dysregulated all the time. That's not good. That's re traumatizing, really. And what we want to do instead is imagine the gallon jug has a spigot at the bottom. If you turn the spigot, you can take out a small amount of water. I take out just enough that is uncomfortable, perhaps in my system, but it doesn't overwhelm me. And then what I do is I stay with the emotion. I allow it to process out of my body and discharge. And we can use therapeutic regulating tools and also things that regulate you to do this. So that is the process of titration and discharge. That's what we want to do. Now, plant medicine, you know, there can be the use of psilocybin, mdma, even sometimes a mixture of MDMA and psilocybin ayahuasca. And in other things, there's many other things that are used as well, can be very supportive for some people. The issue that I have about it is it is not disclosed to people that there are times where it can actually be detrimental. And so people go to these, you know, retreats, an ayahuasca retreat or whatever. And they're just desperate. Everybody's desperate for things to be better. And I will say everybody wants a magic pill. Like, this thing is gonna save me. There is no magic pill. And by the way, even if plant medicine ceremonies go well, that is not the work. Peter Levine talks about this a lot, I think, in his life. He's in his 80s, and same with Bessel, has done it, done plant medicine less than a handful of times. And the reason being is because he said we need a lot of time to integrate. So to take the work that just happened and then process it through my body and continue the actual work that happens after that. So that could be, you know, like a substantial amount of time in between these ceremonies. Instead, I see people doing them, like five times a year. That is excessive. And that's not. You're not integrating anything. If that's occurring so what can happen? To go back to what I was saying of what we want to be tentative about is, first of all, environment is very, very important. If you have a trauma history, a complex trauma history, what happens is your psyche brilliantly will put all of these experiences into boxes. Think of it like there's all these boxes in my body and my brain, and the boxes hold those activating experiences. It's very smart and adaptive because if I was to feel all the things that happened to me in my life all at once, it would overwhelm me and be too much. So someone like me, I would have had at some point, 10,000 boxes. So many because I had complex trauma, meaning lots of things repetitively happening to me that were quite severe. So if I would have gone and early in my healing, like early on, without building capacity in my nervous system, have went and did plant medicine, all of those boxes, because this is what plant medicine can do, open up the boxes. And if you have a lot of boxes, it might open all of them. And if you have all of those boxes open, that's like dumping the gallon of water jug on me. And it might overwhelm my system. And then my system goes into acute dysregulation or self protection. And I have worked, when I used to do individual work, worked with a few people who had that happen. And it can take a very long time to get our system back to reshape to a place of greater regulation. So I say that not to scare anybody, but to be realistic that that is possible. Now, if you don't have a complex trauma history and you go to do ayahuasca, for example, or a severe trauma history, there are less boxes to open and they aren't as intense. And that means the opening of those boxes might be within my capacity, meaning I can hold. It might feel like a lot, but I'm ready for that. And then I can process it through and then later spend time integrating with a practitioner, therapist. And then for me, after doing a lot of work in my own life, then there's a point where approaching something like plant medicine is much safer and more feasible because I now have the capacity. But it's the same, by the way, I'll say this about emdr, for example. I see people all of the time jump to do EMDR without building capacity in their nervous system. And then what happens is memories arise and they overwhelm them and they feel retraumatized. So it's the same concept these things can be. So plant medicine can be a fabulous avenue to support us, to be able to hold something that has been pushed away and process it through and have a different orientation to it. And especially lots of research on MDMA and complex trauma. Lots of research on that now and how wildly beneficial it can be to have self compassion for ourselves and what has happened to us and really remarkable results from it. But we need to build our capacity in order to do these things. The other thing I will name is microdosing is a really, really beneficial thing for a lot of people. Then, of course, I just want to preface by saying none of this is medical advice, and please speak to whomever your trauma practitioner clinician is before engaging in any of these things. That's really important to name, too.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah. Because to have all of those drawers empty out all at the same time, you know, I've seen people get stuck in the dysregulation that that's created, and then you've got to try and find your way out of that as well as process all the stuff that you're now aware of that you weren't aware of. So it's really helpful to hear that we need to have capacity.
- [49:06]
A
That's right. That's exactly right, yes.
- [49:09]
B
Yeah. And in the question before that, you talked about how being in our ventral vagal complex, that's where we feel and can experience an embodied connection and interconnection with everything this person's asking. I feel like I have no spiritual connection. Why is that?
- [49:32]
A
Yeah, when we're dysregulated, especially highly dysregulated, remember, it's our nervous system fortifying us. What it's doing is. It's like putting a. It's like it's. Not only is it standing in front of us, it has a wall all around us. And its job, that wall, is to keep us from danger. The issue is it not only keeps danger out, but it keeps the good things out, and it keeps us from being able to connect because it's creating that wall, that fortifying wall. So connection becomes something that is not accessible for us. And what is spirituality all about? Connection. Connection with the divine, connection with ourselves, connection with others, connection with animals, connection with creativity, connection with our soul. It's really about that. So presence, connection, and love. And so when we're dysregulated, that can be very, very hard to experience. And something that makes me really fucking mad. We occasionally swear on this podcast, everybody, I apologize if that is, you know, something you don't like. But sometimes I can't help myself. So what makes me really Mad is messaging in a lot of religion that if you are depressed or if you are anxious, it means you're not spiritual enough. It means they're not praying hard enough or meditating enough. And that is such a fucked up message. It is so wrong. It is so shaming. It is so ignorant of whoever is saying that. And it. And it makes me want to, with my own healthy aggression, find those people and not do anything dangerous to them, but tell them what's actually true is that they're completely and wholly wrong and they have no idea what they're talking about at all. So if anyone listening to this has received that message, I'm so sorry, that is not true. What's true is that your nervous system is protecting you. And when that occurs, it keeps us from our spirituality, because spirituality is just those things. And by the way, you know, some people that I know, this is actually funny. A couple of friends who are atheists, and I joke with them a lot. I'm like, you're more spiritual than a lot of spiritual people I know. And they're like, no, I'm not. I'm like, yes, you are. Look at you in nature. I watch you in nature. You are connecting so deeply to it. That's spirituality, right? So what we want to look at is not this. Well, to be a spiritual being means that I'm always kind to everybody I see in the world. And it also means that I pray and meditate for four hours a day. And that makes me really spiritual. I mean, certainly doing those things are spiritual acts. But literally stopping. I was walking my dog with my partner yesterday, and I love gardenias. They remind me of being in Hawaii. So I can't wait to get to this certain block. And I was like, we're going this way. And he's like, why? I was like, because we have to go this way. As I knew they were blooming, and I got there and I was so excited and I was like, stop talking. I need to smell these flowers. Then I did that for, like four minutes. Probably that's a spiritual act. That's. That's being deeply connected and present. And so I want us to, like, relinquish this idea of religion. Religion, by the way, for some people, is highly supportive for them. But that is not the only form of spirituality. What I was doing is spiritual. Putting music on in your home and letting your body move to the music is a spiritual act, because what is that about? Self, love and connectivity. So for this person, I invite you to take tolerable steps towards this like what I just described. And I look forward to that. I'm going to do it after this long day of filming today because I can do that, see what that's like for you. Let the sun touch you, touch your face and touch your heart. Feel that. Feel like you smiling, Rachel. I'm taking that in right now fully. And the love that you emanate, it's so beautiful. And to receive that is a spiritual act. So I want us to see. Can we start with what are ways that I can feel connection with nature, with a person, with an animal? And let yourself be moved by it. Let yourself be deeply moved by that experience. Don't brush it off. Really be moved by it. So can I feel that connectivity? Can I feel awe? Can I feel love for another being? And start there. Those are spiritual acts. And they'll also regulate your nervous system, too.
- [54:13]
B
Oh, yeah. I'm glad you just said that at the end because I know from my periods of being in dorsal, like, it's so hard to. To connect with anything. And it can. And. But you can have the spiritual. You know, the spiritual knowing that you're meant to feel connected to everything, but that wall around you that shuts you off is just intense. So I'm glad you just said about regulating your nervous system too, because then that allows for those glimmers of feeling in awe and presence with your family and your animals and the sky and the sun.
- [54:48]
A
That's right. And Rachel lays outside on her trampoline in the sun. I hope you jump around on it too, which is awesome. You do? Oh, good. All a very spiritual experience.
- [55:01]
B
I do. It's great. It's great for. If you've got a bit of sympathetic in your nervous system. And if you want to celebrate, I. I go out there to. I put a song on that I love and I jump and dance and celebrate myself if I've done a tolerable step and things like that. So, yeah, the trampoline gets well used for ventral activities.
- [55:23]
A
I love that so much, Rachel. And I love you. You very much, too.
- [55:26]
B
I love you too, Sarah. A. And that's all our questions for today.
- [55:32]
A
That's it. Well, go jump on the trampoline. I'm going to go smell a flower and I will see you in the next episode.