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- [00:01]
A
Today I'm so excited we have the Jane Latman.
- [00:06]
B
Aw.
- [00:07]
C
First time she's here.
- [00:07]
A
I don't know what to do with Mike because I'm like trying to look at both. I'm in the middle. I'm in the worst spot. Jane Latman, thank you for coming.
- [00:14]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [00:15]
A
Oh, my gosh. I. You're not supposed to fangirl over your guests. I told you this when we had talked earlier, but I am your first ever, ever podcast guest number one. So it's going to go both ways. No. So we're going to suck at this. But we're really pumped that you're here. Jane and I cross paths through hgtv. I'm going to give you an introduction here in a second, but for anyone listening or watching. Gosh, what year was it? 2019. Technically. Well, the show took. Okay.
- [00:50]
C
The pilot came in 2018.
- [00:53]
A
Well, let's back up. I'm going to do an introduction to Jane.
- [00:56]
C
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [00:57]
A
Put a pin in.
- [00:57]
C
Who's Gene Lamman?
- [00:58]
A
Put a pin in this. Put a pin in this. Because I. I have something that I put into chat gbt. I literally asked chat gbt, which I'm not a huge user of, but this guy likes it. And I was like, it's great for research. Yeah, I was like, I'm gonna ask ChatGPT who Jane Latman is. Do you want to hear it?
- [01:17]
B
Sure. You never know what that thing's gonna say.
- [01:20]
A
I know it makes you sound really great, so check states. Jane Latman is a seasoned tele with decades of leadership experience in non fiction and lifestyle programming. Since 2003, she has built her career at Discovery, now Warner Brothers, Discovery now not. I think something else went down there. We're not sure where. She has played pivotal roles in transforming several networks and super heading hit shows. Jane Latman is foremost known for her outstanding leadership in unscripted television, particularly driving explosive growth of ID investigation. Discovery turning into a top tier network, revitalizing and expanding content across multiple cable brands like the Travel Channel, hgtv, Food Network. With compelling franchises and talent, consistent industry recognition as one of cable's most powerful and influential women executives. Bridging crime and lifestyle programming, culminating and launching her own creative production imprint.
- [02:20]
C
Wow.
- [02:20]
A
Dang.
- [02:22]
B
Hiring ChatGPT.
- [02:23]
C
It's great. You forgot the one thing I was like. Also one of the most pivotal things was green lighting HGTV's popular show. No demo rental.
- [02:31]
A
That's. Yes, it's on here. So it says one more thing. Jane Latman's tenure as president of HGTV starting in 2019 onward was really influential. She green lit. Green lit and launched several of the network's most popular brand defining shows. Many of them turned into franchises or cultural talking points. And one of those.
- [02:51]
B
Wow, I like that. Cultural talking point, right?
- [02:54]
A
And one of those shows was no demo Renault. And that is how our paths have crossed and why she's sitting in this chair today.
- [03:02]
C
That's awesome.
- [03:03]
B
Thank you.
- [03:04]
A
You're impressive.
- [03:04]
C
That's awesome.
- [03:05]
A
I mean, I know you're impressive before Chatgpt told me, but I'm excited because.
- [03:09]
C
I've only been proxy to some of the calls that you've been on with Jen in the background, listening, taking notes and things like that. So it's awesome to meet you in person.
- [03:16]
B
Likewise. So.
- [03:17]
C
So, yeah. And I know you've been, you know, from everything that you've been, you know, a fan of Jen and supporting of her and, you know, really encouraging of what of her personality to come through television and to keep that authentic. And as a, you know, husband of Jen who, you know, loves her dearly, is protective her. It's awesome to have somebody who was on her side. And so thank you for that, you know, adventure for the last, you know, for, you know, four years of your life that you're a part of that. So it's awesome.
- [03:40]
A
That was always. The talk track is like. And we'll get into that. But when you decided to leave and pursue your own thing, the talk track was everyone. I don't know if you knew this, but even my exec was like, jane Latman is leaving, but it's okay, you're gonna be fine. And I was like, the amount at which people are telling me this makes me think I might not be fine. And it's because everyone said you were such, like a champion of the show and you were like, excited about it.
- [04:06]
B
I love that show.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah, it was awesome. And so I, I did have a little. That was my first little thing of like, I guess I was a little scared because I was like, okay, she likes me. I know I'm the weird girl of hgtv. Is she really the only one who actually sees this as potential? That's how I felt. So when you left, like, it, I thought about you more than you realized.
- [04:28]
B
Oh, that's so sweet.
- [04:30]
C
I guess I asked the question. So, you know, you talked about, like, do you remember when the, the show came across the sizzle reel or the pilot, like, how did that come about? What's that process like with he TV or from a behind the scenes production stamp. Because there's so many people that have no idea how the industry works. Like, you know, just from your, your point of view, like, how did things come. And I'm just kind of curious what your, your thoughts are in general, you know.
- [04:51]
B
Yeah, there's a whole development process. That's what we call it, the development process. Pitches come in all the time. We get, I mean, every day we get pitches. Some pitches come in like a little paragraph. Some pitches come in with like a whole write up and a tape. Yours came in that way at least by the time I saw it. And then it has like levels of like first, you know, the person, a development executive looks at it, then they bring it to the whole team and then it goes up and up or it winnows down. Right. From hundreds and hundreds down to like a green light meeting where there's maybe, I mean, in every network it's different. But for HGTV, I mean, we would have, you know, maybe 12 things in a green light meeting and green light maybe half of those and maybe out of the other half, three would go back for more work and then three would pass or something like that. But it changes in every green light meeting.
- [05:41]
C
So it's almost like a business pitch at that point. It's just things coming across my gas.
- [05:46]
A
Yeah.
- [05:46]
B
I don't know. Business. Yeah. I mean it's, it's pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch. It's, it's looking at so many different ideas, so much different talent. And I remember the no demo Renault pitch came to me at an early meeting. It wasn't a green light because I saw things early and yeah, I was like, let's, let's, let's cultivate this. Like, look at her. Like I was thinking about, I'm gonna date myself a little bit. And it's like even older than me, but like I love Lucy.
- [06:19]
C
Yes, you did.
- [06:22]
A
My mom always said.
- [06:23]
C
Yes, yes.
- [06:24]
B
I was like, she's like Lucille Paul. Oh. And you made me laugh.
- [06:28]
A
Crazy good compliment.
- [06:29]
C
That's a great compliment.
- [06:30]
A
I love. She's like my favorite. Most influential in tv. Yeah.
- [06:33]
C
And you mean more just from a talent standpoint? It's just the, the what she did from a standpoint, production and everything. She was.
- [06:39]
A
They don't like that part of me.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah, she was a maven.
- [06:42]
C
That. Look at you. Bringing it back to episode one. Thank you. This is awesome. See, look at it.
- [06:49]
B
Brought that.
- [06:49]
C
That word's trending. Yeah, probably it's up there now.
- [06:52]
A
Probably.
- [06:53]
C
Sorry.
- [06:54]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [06:55]
B
And I think the concept was really good too. I mean, not everything should be like full, full on renovation. That takes a really long time. It's really expensive. Right. And that's how this was pitched. You know, it was like, this is. Can be done quickly. You've got this great talent. And yeah, like you said, we had no one else like you on the air. And I don't remember how quickly it went from pitch to green light, but it feels to me in my memory like it was like, let's go. And you know, the deal takes time. Everything takes more time than you think. And tv.
- [07:26]
A
Yes, I remember. So I remember correctly. Something happened. A first merger before Warner Brother with like scripts.
- [07:34]
B
Yes.
- [07:34]
A
And you came in right during that.
- [07:36]
B
Yes.
- [07:36]
A
And everyone was kind of worried because we got the okay, interest from HGTV and we wanted. Originally they wanted to make it a 30 minute show with me. And then the whole merger happened and all the shows got like shelved for like six months because everyone was trying to like see, set their new rules, I'm sure roles and what they're doing. So there was a minute there where we were like, like hearing crickets. And I'm like, okay, well it was fun for a minute and you know, and then it picked back up. And I think it's because of you.
- [08:04]
B
I think it's like the highs and the lows, right?
- [08:06]
A
It's like because it took a year and a half from shooting. So a sizzle reel. We'll break down television here. A sizzle reel. So not everyone had to make a sizzle reel. That's interesting.
- [08:17]
B
No, at hgtv, most people, the most, you ended up with a sizzle reel. Sometimes it comes in not with a sizzle reel, comes in as a paragraph and it's like, okay, well now flesh that out to a page or a couple pages and it's like, okay, now let's do a sizzle reel. Usually we do tape.
- [08:31]
A
Okay, so a sizzle reel is. How many minutes was. I don't even remember.
- [08:35]
B
I don't remember. But it can be five minutes. Yeah, it can be anywhere from 50.
- [08:39]
C
Years are short.
- [08:39]
A
There's no way mine was short. And so a sizzle reel is literally just like a test run where you like fake out a television show to see how the talent looks on camera. And you're trying to describe, like I did an intro of like I'm Jennifer Todrick and I. And it's literally like a fake little truncated show in like five minutes or whatever. And I just remember it being the weirdest thing, because I like would remember. They took me out to a barn in like Fort Worth and I had to like hammer nails.
- [09:09]
C
They took you out to another production student set. It was the, it was the, it was another show. It was a show that was on DIY network. It was their big one that they had there. So they took you out to that like subdivision and you're just in some random home and there was like construction going on. You're like, here's a shelf. And you were talking about the shelf.
- [09:25]
A
What I would do design. They just want to see probably confidence. Right. And being in front of a camera and like if it translates. Right.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, how could you put someone on air and do a show around them without knowing if, if they kind of pop on camera. Right.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah. And so that was crazy.
- [09:43]
B
A proof of concept, you know, does this work? How does this play out? Or like a trailer. It's almost like a trailer.
- [09:48]
A
Yeah. And so to go even more, I don't want to say basic, but like a lot of people still don't realize how television's made. It's the, there's the network, which is in this story. Discovery, hgtv, the network. And then there's the production companies that are all these little companies that you are in the credits at the end. And the production companies are the ones typically seeking talent and making the show. And then they throw it to HGTV and they watch it and they're like, yes, we'll give you money to fund the show. Go make it. And then you guys give notes along the way as you're getting footage coming in.
- [10:23]
B
Well, yeah. And it's kind of like a partnership.
- [10:25]
A
Yes.
- [10:25]
B
Yeah. Like enhance. Like in partnership.
- [10:28]
A
Yeah.
- [10:28]
B
You know, we know what's going on in the field, but we're not in the field necessarily. But sometimes executives do come out to the field.
- [10:34]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:34]
B
We're sort of, we're commissioning it, we're paying for it.
- [10:37]
A
Yeah. I mean I, I kind of like realist. Like I'm thinking of even my job and maybe this will hit closer to like people understanding. Like if someone's doing like a commercial for something or even like an ad read or a brand deal, the company will be like, here, this is a sale that. These are the notes we need to hit. Is kind of the same thing for tv. You're like, we want her to do this. We really want to hit. The budget was low, which my season one aired or it was shot pre covered. So my budgets. No, like six rooms was 50k. Yes. Because we were shooting.
- [11:11]
C
I was sure you shot during.
- [11:12]
A
No, no, that's season one, my pilot.
- [11:15]
C
Oh, the pilot where we did that house. Yes.
- [11:17]
A
Yeah, I did six rooms for $50,000.
- [11:20]
C
That's true. And so the first season, which became episode one. Yes, you're right. Sorry. You're right. Because. Yeah, that's right.
- [11:26]
A
So I always would see feedback. Not always, but every once in a while. I feel like the show didn't get a ton of negative, but when it did, it was like, what happened to the realistic budgets? I'm like, yeah, well, Covid happened. So we started with like 50,000, 60,000, and then end of season three, we were up in like the two hundreds for the same amount. The budget drastically changed because you couldn't get anything.
- [11:48]
B
Oh, I was gone by that.
- [11:49]
A
Yeah, she left.
- [11:49]
C
Oh, you did? During that point. Yeah, that was. It was a wild change of. Of expectations of it. And at least the show, you know, the. The actual main season started filming. I think it was March of 2020. So that was a. That was a good time to start filming.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah, really good. Oh, that was.
- [12:05]
A
It was messy.
- [12:06]
C
Yeah.
- [12:07]
A
I mean, we couldn't talk about it.
- [12:08]
C
Well, I mean, how did you. I mean, you were. You had moved on to another network.
- [12:11]
B
No, no. So I started in August of 19.
- [12:13]
C
Yep.
- [12:14]
B
And then in March of 20th. We all know what happened and. Yeah, no, we all had to really. It was. We had to like, band together on zoom. People weren't used to zoom. And then figure out how to do shows remotely.
- [12:26]
C
Yeah.
- [12:27]
B
Without too many people in the same room, if any. And all of that. I mean, I think at first we just shut down for a minute and kind of got our bearings and figured out the technology of it all. And I mean, this is terrible to say that part maybe was kind of exciting. And it was also a way just personally, for me to like, and my team to have something to focus on besides what was going on in the world, because it was really scary for everybody.
- [12:49]
C
Sure.
- [12:51]
B
And. And then we did figure it out. We did some shows like, I don't remember the name, but one where, like, I know you're trying to design at your doorstep kind of thing where everything's delivered.
- [13:02]
C
Oh, really?
- [13:02]
B
Yeah. And then people self shoot, like them doing their redesign, and that was kind of fun.
- [13:08]
A
It's smart. Did it hit, like, was it.
- [13:10]
B
It hit at the time. Everything hit at the time. Everybody was home and everybody was looking around their homes going, you know, I need an office in my home and I need separation from this. And I Need, you know, so there's a lot of renovation going on.
- [13:21]
A
Right.
- [13:21]
B
Actually renovated my kitchen during it.
- [13:24]
C
Yeah. I mean, it's. People weren't moving at that time, so they were like, let's internally do it.
- [13:28]
B
And all the backyard stuff. Right. People were like, let's put a kitchen outside. I mean, it was just. It was very home centric.
- [13:33]
C
Yeah.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah.
- [13:34]
C
Well, yeah, I mean, it's. It was that. That was a trying time. And we made. Every corporation and company was like, how are we going to figure this out? And you're right. As far as, like, the unknown was like. The part was like, how bad is this? Because it was, you know, depending on who you're talking to is like the world was ending or it was no big deal. Or it's like, it's like literally. But navigating through the complexity of corporate side and obviously the policies and attorneys and everything, it's just a whole other.
- [13:56]
B
Yeah.
- [13:57]
C
Ball game. And. And the fact that you were able to move forward with production and do it safely and do things even, you know, regardless of the people's opinion on it, you still did it. It was. It was a really, really.
- [14:07]
A
We.
- [14:08]
C
Solid production despite complexity. A lot of complexity.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah.
- [14:12]
A
We were scheduled to shoot April 2020, and I. I don't hardly remember any details. I have the worst memory, but I do vividly remember we were supposed to shoot April 2020. And I know y' all shut down because we didn't shoot.
- [14:26]
C
That's right.
- [14:26]
B
Till when?
- [14:27]
A
Summer.
- [14:27]
B
You don't remember?
- [14:28]
A
In the middle of the summer.
- [14:28]
B
So it took a few months.
- [14:29]
A
Like a couple of months.
- [14:30]
B
It's just like, what. Because, you know, what are the protocols and what, you know, what are we gonna need to do and how do we.
- [14:36]
A
Yeah, well, we didn't want to talk about it. And I'm like, living this life also on social media and I'm literally shooting a TV show in the middle of all this. So I'm sure people had horrible thoughts to say about that. And like, why aren't you at home? And I'm like, I prom. I promise. We're at home. We filmed with what we called Skeleton Cruise.
- [14:52]
B
Yeah.
- [14:52]
A
So you had like one of everything. Except I will say I was so blessed in that I had multiple cameras from day one, which. Thank you for that budget, however they made that work. There's some shows that I know of even to this day. They start with one cam, which means you have to do like every scene like three times for different.
- [15:09]
B
The camera can get you from different angles. Yeah.
- [15:11]
A
Which Kills. I'm sorry, but it kills the authenticity to me. Kills it.
- [15:14]
B
Because you're doing it again and again, 100%.
- [15:16]
A
But with TV, they're like, no, this is 100% authentic. Just do it again, just like you did it. I'm like, that's not authenticity. Like, I had such a beef with that, so I didn't have to mess with that. And I was happy.
- [15:26]
C
Which people don't realize this production we actually have when we're. You're watching on YouTube, there's only one camera, so we're actually repeating conversations.
- [15:32]
A
Whatever.
- [15:34]
C
Whatever we got through. How about that? Look at how advanced this is. I want to talk about the show as well. And then I wanted, like, one thing you brought about. COVID I am curious, as we're going to come back to this, because I'm curious about, like, how I think it changed the way people consume media during the time going at home and, you know, whether it's from, you know, going to the cinema to home to online streaming. Like, the entire industry was kind of disrupted around that 2020 time frame. Right.
- [16:01]
B
But it would have been anyway. Right?
- [16:02]
C
You think so?
- [16:03]
B
Well, because streaming was, like, taking off.
- [16:05]
C
Do you think it accelerated it?
- [16:06]
B
I do.
- [16:07]
C
Like, so you think it would happen eventually, but you think it absolutely accelerated that.
- [16:11]
B
Yeah, because the way people watch streaming is different from the way they watch not streaming.
- [16:16]
C
True.
- [16:16]
B
And so, you know, think everything on demand and all that, and they just. I mean, I do think it accelerated. Probably. Probably.
- [16:25]
C
But it's gonna go that way anyway. Yeah, I mean, of course it will. I agree with that. I mean, we. We talked, and so the first episode or second episode about, like, what our kids want to do when they, you know, like, kindergarten or they were talking about, like, what they want to do when they grow up. And it was like, most of them were YouTubers and an influencer. Like, that's where. Like, that's. People aren't saying movie stars. They're not saying, you know, tell a TV star.
- [16:46]
A
They're saying, jane, when I tell you. I was like, I'm pretty sure my kids don't know the word influencer. And I, Like, I did not. I was like, please don't say it. Please don't say it. Like, I. Because I look like I'm, like, grooming my child to do social media. And she walked up there, and I was like. And she was like, vivian Todrick wants to be a chef. And I was like, yes, that's an easy for now. Oh, the hardest. We'll deal with that.
- [17:08]
B
Later.
- [17:09]
C
Totally. We could do probably. You have a lot of experience on that one, so.
- [17:13]
B
That's right.
- [17:14]
C
I want to go back earlier. Like, how did you get into this? I mean, I'm sure there's so many people, like, how does somebody end up as a, as a media executive? I mean, that's a, that's a hard business to get into. Like, tell us your genesis.
- [17:28]
B
I kind of am the kind of person who like just kind of files my nose. Like, I didn't plan any of my career. So I don't know if that's good advice or bad advice.
- [17:36]
A
I can relate to that.
- [17:37]
B
Like my mother always said, follow your bliss.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah.
- [17:39]
B
And great advice, actually it is, I mean, it's not very practical, but it, but it can be if you, you know, work hard and all that good stuff. But so I really loved theater and so I majored in theater in college. That's where I kind of found my people. And then after college I was doing that and waitressing and bartending. And then, you know, five years later, out of college, I was like carrying a case of beer up from the basement in the bar at 2 in the morning. And I was like, you know, I kind of want to at some point settle down. I wanted to have kids. I knew that for sure. And I was like, yeah, this lifestyle, the kid, like, even if, you know, if my career takes off as a theater director, like, the kid will have to come to rehearsals at night, because rehearsals were at night. It was just like, what else can I do?
- [18:32]
C
So you found yourself more on, not on the acting side of things, but more the production direction. That was always your interest in being like the choreographer of it.
- [18:40]
A
Okay, that makes sense. Okay.
- [18:42]
B
Still is the case.
- [18:43]
A
So how do you, what did you.
- [18:45]
B
Do to get up with that? I started talking to people at the bar, like informational interviews and people in media. And like I was in Washington D.C. at the time and there were a lot of news people. And I was like, yeah, news doesn't sound like what I want to do. And then I, I, there was this thing called like unscripted television and I thought, and there was National Geographic in D.C. and D.C. also had Discovery. It had all these, it had PBS and a lot of different TV was there. And I actually went to a temp agency. Do temp agencies exist?
- [19:21]
C
Any still do? Yeah.
- [19:22]
B
Okay. And I was like, I found ones that are one that places people in media and so really gave me a job. Like I got a temporary job answering phones at a post production house, which I didn't even know what that was. I was like, what's post production? Which is the editing phase of things. And then, you know, took all these little jobs, and then one day got a job like they needed a temporary assistant at National Geographic. And I was like, oh. And I walked in, I was like, I'm a National Geographic.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah.
- [19:53]
B
Which was very exciting. And I learned I was there. Ended up being there for a few years and just learned everything I could. I was like, assisting. Then I did some research and fact checking and then on it. And then I started evaluating ideas that were coming in at the lowest level. Right. I had boss after boss, you know?
- [20:11]
A
Yeah.
- [20:11]
B
And that's where I started doing, like, development of TV shows and then left and did production.
- [20:18]
A
How old were you when you took that assistant job?
- [20:21]
B
27.
- [20:23]
C
Okay, so you work.
- [20:24]
B
I mean, starting all over 27.
- [20:26]
C
Do you think that that's. Is that a normal pathway in television and media where you literally start at the bottom and grind your way up, work like that's. That's the pathway. So it's like, it's not an instant expectation sound like, hey, I have a MBA from Harvard and I'm coming in as an.
- [20:41]
B
If you have an MBA from Harvard, maybe you don't start. Maybe you start as a coordinator or a manager.
- [20:45]
C
Right?
- [20:46]
A
Yeah.
- [20:46]
B
But you still have to learn the business on the ground. Right, Right. And a lot of people. Yeah. Whether it's at a production company, a television network, or an agency where the agents work, you get in and you work your butt off.
- [20:59]
C
Right.
- [21:00]
A
Were there a lot of women in the field at that time?
- [21:03]
B
Yeah. I think unscripted television is pretty. Has a lot of women. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking back, like.
- [21:13]
A
Yeah.
- [21:15]
B
Yes. But at the highest levels, no men.
- [21:18]
C
Yeah.
- [21:18]
A
I was gonna say it's very still. It feels like a very Men dominated.
- [21:23]
B
That's the highest levels.
- [21:24]
A
Well, even at the level I was at, there were some days where it was me and like one pa.
- [21:30]
B
I will say crews out in the field during production. The camera people, the sound people tend to be men. I was at a shoot yesterday for my new company, and, you know, it was all women from my company working on the ground. And then. Yeah, the entire crew. The. The production assistant cameraman, sound man and assistant cameraman.
- [21:54]
A
And I.
- [21:54]
B
Maybe that's. I mean, a lot.
- [21:55]
A
I mean, it's heavy equipment. The camera people don't know this. The One camera is 40 pounds on their shoulders all day.
- [22:02]
B
All day, all day.
- [22:03]
A
And so we'd take breaks really quick, like if we Were stretch and do it. Yes. We take breaks where we say, cameras down. And it's literally just for them to stand there and, like, do this or stretch. And it's a lot on the body. They never asked for breaks. But, like, our. My showrunners are really good, and we're in the. Okay, so my. My show's a renovation show. Our shoot time was summer in Texas with no AC in the projects. I mean, there were times where I would see Fetter Ryan, my dp. Like, sweat would drip from his elbows onto the floor because it was just so dang hot. And then what's even. I think what's even heavier is audio bag. The audio bag for the audio guy straps on from the back. He wears it like a backpack, except it sits in the front. And it's crazy. So it's. I get why. I think I saw one female audio in the four years I was in front of tv. So I get that. But I wondered if corporate was different.
- [22:57]
B
Again, it's like. I think at the highest levels, it's still more male. But what do you think? I mean.
- [23:04]
C
I mean. I mean, it's a genuine question. I mean, what do you think? Because you see that across. I mean, the ratios of. Of male to female CEOs crop across all corporations is disproportionately higher. Males still. I mean, I am.
- [23:16]
B
I mean, what else could it be but some sort of sexism, Right? I mean, what else?
- [23:20]
C
I don't do. And this is just a general question. This is an essay. Do you think having families or the expectation of women put themselves in families holds people back from a standpoint?
- [23:29]
B
I think so. Whether it's conscious or unconscious, that's.
- [23:31]
C
I know. Yeah.
- [23:33]
B
Like if. I mean, if a woman of a certain age, you know, say, you know, 28 to 35, or doesn't have kids but is married and comes in and, I mean, maybe subconsciously or consciously, the hiring manager is like, yeah, but I might lose them to have, you know, for months at a time. I don't know. I mean, I've hired people who were like, seven months pregnant. I knew they were about to have a baby, but I was like, you're worth waiting for.
- [23:58]
C
Absolutely.
- [23:58]
A
Right.
- [23:58]
C
Yeah, that's true. Do you think it's. Do you think women sometimes maybe put that among themselves?
- [24:03]
B
Probably, yeah.
- [24:04]
C
How did you manage this? Because I know you. You have a. You have a family, right?
- [24:07]
B
Yep, I had one son or I have one son and. But I didn't know. I mean. No.
- [24:14]
A
And also put that upon themselves.
- [24:16]
C
I was just more curious. Like, I know.
- [24:18]
A
What do you mean by that?
- [24:18]
C
Meaning, like, like if it's from a standpoint of like, we're for you right now, you're pausing. You took a pause in production intentionally because you want.
- [24:28]
B
It's a struggle.
- [24:28]
C
And I'm not saying that like, again, this is, it's, it's almost a societal thing. And again, everyone has their own choices. Like, our standpoint is like, you know, obviously traditional, old school, man works, woman stays home. Life's changed throughout the time. As far as people, the way they manage their families. We all, I think everyone believe it's important to have a solid family structure for your children. Like in. Regardless the male or family, you need to have a structure for your children of consistency and love and all those things. Right. But as far as, for like your choice, like, as a, as a guy, I would say it's like, I don't even think about that. It's my job. I'm gonna keep working. You know, I mean, you see what I'm saying? Like, like Jen's making a choice.
- [25:03]
B
But some men say, you know what? I don't want to miss out on these moments. I'm gonna, you know.
- [25:07]
A
Yeah, I think, I don't, I don't think women put on themselves. I think women are, this is a hot topic. I think men, women are more motivated or aspirational when it comes to. I want to. I'm gonna try to have it all. I'm gonna have the family. I'm gonna try to, you know, a lot. You know, some women, career women, I'm gonna do the latter thing. Whereas men are very much more compartmentalized in everything, in every aspect. Whereas women are like, I can handle one more thing. Whereas men are like, I don't want to. I'm already doing this. Like, they will literally use it as an excuse for why they can't do one more thing because they're already doing one thing.
- [25:41]
B
I feel like it's just like that I can't do anymore.
- [25:46]
A
I know this is, I'm, I'm shooting shots here, but shots fired at men, I'm really not. I'm just saying I, I don't like the way like we put it upon ourselves. I get what you're saying because of the choices we make, but I think women are very much like heels in the dirt, all 10 toes in the sand. I want my family. And I'm also going to try to go for this.
- [26:04]
C
And that's not, that's not me saying like, is. I think There's. There's elements of everything. And I agree. There's. There's absolutely systemic things that people just have a basis. Like, well, that guy's 6 2. He seems like he's, you know, like, I need to be in a leadership thing. And there's really all these things that have un. Like not great reasons why people are in senior. Senior leadership from where. Where they should be. I've seen it personally in. In corporations. Right. And it's like, you know, judge people based on the talent of who. Of what they are and what they bring into. And obviously, you've. You've risen through those things and you. You've.
- [26:35]
A
Yeah, I want to hear that. I want to hear. So you had a family. So where were you when you were having your son? And how did that transition into you doing your job?
- [26:44]
B
I had just started at Warner Brothers or at Discovery at the time, and. Or that's not true. I'd been there maybe a year, year and a half. Half or something like that.
- [26:53]
A
Id. Right.
- [26:54]
B
Yeah. Eventually it was id. I started a different channel, and then it became id.
- [26:58]
A
Okay.
- [27:00]
B
And, yeah. And obviously cut back to what I said about having children. I was like, my dream was coming true. I was gonna have a baby.
- [27:08]
A
Yeah.
- [27:08]
B
And. And, you know, things were going very well at work, too. And. But there was also a change at work. They went public.
- [27:18]
A
Okay.
- [27:19]
B
Which meant that they were going to restructure things. And it had. And it was happening exactly when I gave birth to Alex. And so I thought, well, you know, they're going to be, like, making changes. Maybe this is time to go and go back to producing and freelancing and have a flat. You know, that flexibility. Right. And. But then my boss was like, no, no, no, I think you should come back. And I was like, I don't know. And I. I was sitting out on my porch and I looked down at my baby sleeping, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I want to leave this little peanut at all, ever.
- [27:53]
A
Yeah.
- [27:54]
B
For the rest of his life. Yeah. And. And then I was. I was talking to my boss, and then I was like, well, oh, I know what happened. I looked at, like, the health insurance requirements. I mean, this was part of it.
- [28:07]
A
Yeah.
- [28:08]
B
And it was like, if you work more than. More than 24 hours or more a week, you get benefits. And I was like, well, maybe, you know, I should be responsible. And. And I said, well, how about if I came back part time? And he was like, I don't know. I don't know about that. And he said, let me think about it. And he came back and he said, yes.
- [28:31]
A
What a boss.
- [28:31]
C
That's awesome.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah. Oh, he's.
- [28:33]
A
Shout out to him.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah, he's the best.
- [28:35]
C
That's awesome.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah. So I was like, okay. So I set up this arrangement where I could work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then have Friday through Monday, four days of not working and being with Alex and getting kind of the both best of both worlds. And actually that's when ID started to percolate. So I was like, I'll do this for three months. I'll do the part time thing for three months and then make a decision. And by the end of the three months, it was a summer and my mother was able to come. She lived a few hours away and she would come on Monday night, take care of him, nanny him, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
- [29:13]
A
What a blessing. Yeah. That's amazing.
- [29:15]
B
That was like such a happy time. And Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And then she would go back home Thursday night and then I'd be there. So it's all family, right?
- [29:22]
A
Yeah.
- [29:23]
B
And excuse me. And then by the end of that summer, Idaho was starting to happen. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. And it still is conflicting. Like my boy grew up as my career blew up.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah.
- [29:37]
B
And it was always a balance and you know, but I do, I think technology also helped. And I'm going, I had a BlackBerry.
- [29:46]
C
Oh yeah.
- [29:47]
B
And that was new. So for everybody out there, we didn't always have the cell phones. We didn't always have the same way of commun. You know, being able to kind of work from anywhere. So I just remember you take a nap and even, you know, so it was very fluid. Like I could always keep up. And yeah. The BlackBerry made it.
- [30:06]
C
Don't you guys miss the BlackBerry days though?
- [30:08]
B
No, I don't.
- [30:10]
C
Just. I do.
- [30:11]
B
You mean because it was simpler.
- [30:12]
C
Yeah, I mean it's good to be connected.
- [30:14]
B
Yeah. Sometimes I do. You know, I mean all the password and.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah.
- [30:17]
A
Code passwords.
- [30:18]
C
Well, that's true. Like it's in this constant like distraction, you know, that's. No, you're right, that's. I mean, I know it's not a weird take and that's kind of BlackBerry.
- [30:26]
B
Was like almost like just enough.
- [30:27]
C
Just enough. That's kind of. Right. It's like. And it was like.
- [30:29]
B
Yeah. Still a phone. Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:31]
C
But it wasn't as like, you know, everything was right there, like constant. But anyway. Yeah, that's awesome.
- [30:36]
A
I'm hearing this and I'm like feeling like your job was pretty Progressive. Like I don't know what date we're in.
- [30:41]
B
But like they were, I mean they are, they were. Discovery always was a really family oriented place.
- [30:47]
A
That's amazing. And I feel like the TV industry is not super. Like.
- [30:51]
B
No. And, and I mean I, I don't know about other places. Right. But I know how hard the work is and I know it's gotten even harder and I just, I don't. It's just gotten, like I said, harder. I think a lot of places are laying people off and that means more. You have more work. One person doing the job of three. So it's going to be harder. Yeah. I don't know if that would happen today. I don't. I mean I haven't looked. You know, I should ask somebody to look up the guidelines and does it still say if you work 24 hours or more, you get all the benefits? And it wasn't just because of the benefits that I went back. I mean it was, it was a good choice for my family. You know, my husband's a producer. He didn't have it's, you know, he was freelance and it was like this could, yeah, this could provide stability, but it was also the love of the work. Like.
- [31:31]
C
Yeah, sure. So you understood it as well too. So you had a relationship, a commonality of what, what this world was. Right?
- [31:37]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I was working with great people and you know, it was so fun. Like one of my happiest memories, my son just went off to college and we'll talk about that. But is like him growing up in the halls of Discovery, like on a day off, you know, I were. I also worked a mile from home. I mean I just.
- [31:54]
C
Oh, that's awesome.
- [31:55]
B
So I can. This is right outside D.C. okay. So if he had like a little recital or those cute things that kids do on stages and I would run over, you know, I could take. I was very. I could schedule my own time and run out and do that. Not everybody can do that.
- [32:14]
A
I was like, that is not what I picture when I think of tv, corporate industry, I think of really. The work never stops. You're constantly looking and developing even. Even on napkins. You see these, you know, like non.
- [32:29]
B
But it got more, I mean my career as I got promoted, it got more intense.
- [32:34]
A
Okay, so what was your next. So.
- [32:36]
B
So I was at ID for a long time. So, you know, was a manager then director then. And then by the time I got was getting promoted to vice president. My boss said there's one thing and I'm like What? And he's like, you can't be a vice president and be part time. That's in that manual as well. The guidelines.
- [32:52]
A
Yeah.
- [32:52]
B
And I was like ready. And I mean, I, I don't remember exactly how old he was, but he was definitely in school, whether it was preschool or kindergarten or something like that. No, it was preschool.
- [33:02]
A
Okay.
- [33:03]
B
Because I remember we had a part time nanny take him to preschool.
- [33:05]
A
Okay.
- [33:05]
B
Or to pick him up.
- [33:06]
A
Yeah.
- [33:06]
B
And. And so, yeah, I went full time, but it didn't. Wasn't that different because again, like the technology, I was always working and I was also able to always not work.
- [33:19]
A
Yeah.
- [33:19]
B
But not to act like it was easy. I mean, my son one time as a toddler said, no more pot berry mom.
- [33:27]
A
Oh.
- [33:28]
B
And that still sticks with me. Right.
- [33:30]
A
I mean, our kids, if you think about it like stepping away from work for like parents who have guilt for like being away, just know that we are at our home working 247 and the amount of times we have to say we have to finish this work is way more than what these people say who get to leave, if you think about it, because we're in, they're in our faces 24 7. And we have to constantly choose work to them in that second. And it's heartbreaking and it's so awesome that we get to be around and be present. But it's like I told Mike the other day, I was like, I, I feel like we have to say we have to work way more than a parent that just leaves and then comes back. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [34:06]
B
Yeah. But I think a good work ethic is setting a good example. That's one of the ways I've justified it is, I mean, I really do like career is important if it's important to you. Right, right.
- [34:14]
A
No, I agree.
- [34:15]
C
Yeah. It sounds like your work ethic is next level too. Some from just standpoint of what you've. How you started came into the career. Like even just saying, you know, you talked about working in the service industry. We own, you know, restaurant, our coffee shops, we own it. We, we really do understand how hard. So that's our service industry people work. It's wild. And I think that's fun though. But it builds an ethic.
- [34:34]
B
Yeah.
- [34:35]
C
Right. Like to know that you, what you put in is what you're going to get out. And I think that is something that is hopefully like part of the development phase of maybe you and everyone who comes to our businesses. And it's like, I'm like, I Hope that's. As people move up, it's like, hey, use this as an opportunity to learn and grow those things. Right?
- [34:50]
B
Yeah. I always say everybody should work in a restaurant or at least, like, I don't know, a month of their life.
- [34:57]
A
Yeah.
- [34:58]
C
Don't you treat servers so much different than, like, you didn't know, right? Where you're like, wow, it's. It's like, yeah, crazy. Yeah.
- [35:04]
A
So you're a waitress, bartender, temp, assistant. Fast forward to manager. There's some things in there.
- [35:12]
B
I remember you saying, no worries.
- [35:13]
A
You're now vp, which is vice president. So what was your first. What was your first job that would be at, like, the same level or tier as, like, being president of hgtv or was that the biggest at the time?
- [35:27]
B
That was the biggest. So I. I got. I was made general manager of small, smaller channels on the way. So there was a. There was Discovery Fit and Health, and we relaunched it to Discovery Life. Yeah, that was a small channel. It was Destination America, but. And cable, you know, stopped growing at a certain point. And then. So these small channels didn't. Weren't getting bigger. And then I was given Travel Channel, and that was a big turning point, because that was a bigger one. And then it was after that, that's when a new boss came in because of the merger with Scripps. And then she asked me if I wanted to come run hgtv. And I was like, what? I was like, have you seen my house?
- [36:13]
A
I literally said that I wouldn't even think of that. But that's funny. Me.
- [36:19]
B
I mean, you guys, you haven't seen my house. It's not. I mean, I need you to come and help me.
- [36:24]
A
No, the fact that you think that's a qualifier to, like, make television choices is hilar.
- [36:29]
B
Well, I learned it wasn't.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah. I mean, no, that makes. But I think that's hilarious. It's just.
- [36:35]
B
But my boss was awesome. She was also over Food Network. So she goes, have you seen my kitchen? That's her answer. And she said, think about it, and we'll move. You know, you'll have to move to New York. And we were ready for a change. And I'm from New York, and my mom is in New York and getting older. Right. So I was like, this could be a great opportunity. So I sent my husband a picture. Picture of a sailboat, please, and said, let's move to New York. And he was like, what? Because all he thought about with New York was, like, the city.
- [37:03]
A
Right.
- [37:03]
B
My mother lives. And I was like, we could. We could, you know, fulfill that dream of getting a sailboat and live somewhere near the water. Like, we could do that. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, like.
- [37:13]
A
Right.
- [37:14]
B
That's what we did.
- [37:15]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [37:17]
C
And you're still out in New York now?
- [37:18]
B
Yeah. We saw that sailboat.
- [37:19]
C
Hey, there you go. That's so cool.
- [37:21]
B
Named Banshee. Yeah.
- [37:22]
A
Oh, my gosh. That's really cool.
- [37:24]
C
Are you guys a sailing family? Is that, like, something?
- [37:26]
B
Yeah, I mean, he's the sailor. I'm a good passenger.
- [37:29]
C
There you go. Did you take your son to Z? Is he gotten into that as well?
- [37:31]
B
Yeah, he did.
- [37:32]
C
That's awesome. I mean, I'm not really a water guy. I grew up in Milwaukee. Even though it's on. Kind of on the water, but it's not.
- [37:39]
A
It's more water than here. I was like, Fort Worth.
- [37:42]
C
I had. I had. I had an opportunity. I got accepted to Annapolis as well. So I went to West Point, But I get. I got accepted. And I remember thinking to myself, I don't want to be on the water. I am not a great swimmer. Water is not my thing. So more power. That's awesome.
- [37:56]
B
And. And it was great. I mean, the COVID again, it was like. So that's what my son and. And husband did. And I did, too, but during COVID because my husband had to relearn how to sail. And, like, it was pretty cool.
- [38:07]
A
That's a fun hobby. Yeah. To. To take on.
- [38:11]
B
Yeah. And. Yeah.
- [38:12]
C
You were just in New York.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah, I saw that. I.
- [38:15]
A
Whenever I went, like a year and a half ago, I. I don't remember if I emailed Sarah, my exec or it wasn't you. Maybe it's Sarah. I was like, I'm coming to New York. I want to meet with you guys. And we literally just sat down. I don't remember what we talked about, but I just wanted to say hi. And that's the one and only time besides right now that I met you in person. In person.
- [38:34]
C
Yeah.
- [38:35]
A
I talked to her on the phone. Talk to you on the phone.
- [38:36]
B
But I remember that.
- [38:37]
A
I do, too. And I remember being like, she seems so normal. That's a good. I mean, that is a good thing. But I was like. I think I remember telling you. I was like, I just met the president. Hgtv. And, like, she seems like someone you'd just, like, sit and talk to.
- [38:52]
C
So down to earth, normal. She's like, she's not like, there.
- [38:55]
A
You weren't stuffy.
- [38:55]
C
She didn't Feel like you were angling for anything that's. Yeah, yeah.
- [38:58]
B
I'm not a corporate type.
- [38:59]
C
Yeah.
- [38:59]
B
And that's why it was like. Yeah, it's pretty surprising. Like, I. I call myself the accidental executive because I just never set out. I just never set out to do that. But I was like, as long as I'm having fun and fulfilled and, you know, the money was good, I bet.
- [39:15]
C
You that makes you a really good leader.
- [39:17]
B
Yes, I hope so.
- [39:18]
C
I. I hope so. I think people that go into those things and not being like. Like people that. My opinion, people that really want leadership sometimes are the worst leaders because they are, like, there for their own intent as opposed to doing what's best for everyone else. So through this whole journey, then you, you know, you move into he TV and you've had all these things, like. Can I ask. Can I ask a random question? Can I write a random one?
- [39:40]
B
All right, let's try it.
- [39:41]
C
Like, is there a project during the time that you're like. I want to know one that you're like, wow, that was a wild. Like, what were we thinking? This is the craziest green light we did. And you just got to be like.
- [39:52]
A
Whether it failed or.
- [39:53]
C
And then I also. Then I want to know the one you're most proud of. I know it's h. I know it's no Demo Renault. You don't have to say that. Yeah, of course that's. Well, let's put that one off the.
- [40:00]
B
Table because it wasn't that.
- [40:02]
C
If it's not no Demo Renault, what's the one you're most proud of? And what's. The one was like, what were we. And you have to. I guess, you know, I mean, there were plenty of.
- [40:08]
B
What were you thinking in that?
- [40:11]
C
You don't have to say the name of the show because you don't want to throw shade on people.
- [40:13]
B
You're like, it's not that the shows aren't good. It's like part of the job at that time was to, like, stretch the brand and try to take risks. And that's what I had fun doing.
- [40:22]
C
Sure.
- [40:22]
B
And that's why I left is because we weren't being asked to take as many risks. And I was. Yeah. And so. So some of those risks really didn't pan out. I mean, we did one with. With Thunder Down Under.
- [40:39]
A
I remember that. I remember that. But the Vegas male, like, dancers. Right.
- [40:45]
B
That's cool. Green light that.
- [40:50]
A
I mean, so it didn't. Did it.
- [40:53]
B
I don't think it did very well. It aired After I left, so I didn't have to deal with it. That was Betsy.
- [40:57]
C
Was that a demo? Like, it was a. Is a renovation show with Thunder Down. Like a renovation show.
- [41:02]
B
Yeah. It was truly like, they moonlight doing Thunder down under, but they're construction guys. Yeah. Contractors and stuff. They were great.
- [41:09]
C
I'm sure they were.
- [41:10]
A
I remember that poster. I remember that.
- [41:13]
B
I think Matt's a little off, right? It's a little off center.
- [41:16]
A
HG I think my showrunner, Matt Blaine, was either interviewed or asked if he wanted to do that, and he said no.
- [41:23]
B
But why. Why would. I mean, it should be a female showrunner, but. Okay.
- [41:28]
C
I'm also. I'll say. I'm kind of offended by this whole conversation. I wasn't asked me on it. This is insane.
- [41:34]
B
Like, we'll bring it back this time. It'll skyrocket to number one.
- [41:38]
A
It's.
- [41:38]
C
Yeah. It's called. You know, I don't know what's. What's a. What's like a little thunder. Little rumble that sounds.
- [41:44]
A
Mike's rumble down under sounds like a fart. Honey, that's hilarious. I. I cannot believe you brought that up, because I remember that show. I think it aired, like, after my second season, if I'm remembering correctly.
- [41:55]
C
Yeah. I mean, I think if you're not challenging and taking risks, you can't grow. Right. And I think that's. Would you. Would you. Would you think. And may I ask you this? Do you think. No. Demareno was a little bit of a risk from the standpoint of Jen's background, or did you see it just as her talent? Because, again, as a husband, I'd be like. I remember seeing. Talking to Jen, and I've said this story before, and I don't. Probably haven't heard it, but we used to watch the Voice back in the day, and I remember, like, being like, Jen has a great voice and she's very talented. She has theater background and all these things. And I was like, you could do this show if you really wanted to.
- [42:26]
A
No, I couldn't.
- [42:27]
C
It's what she said. I go. But I was like, I absolutely could see you doing something because of her. Just innate.
- [42:33]
A
Well, hold on.
- [42:34]
B
Charisma.
- [42:35]
C
But I'm saying. But like, with that being said, it kind of evolved on its own. But would you. Did you think that was a risk.
- [42:39]
B
Or did you Wouldn't call it a risk. I would call it, like, a stretch. Not even. I mean, in that it was. You know, again, I think of it all. I will.
- [42:46]
A
Compared to, like, Christina Hack like, her shows, like, very different.
- [42:51]
B
Very different. But she's very different from Aaron.
- [42:54]
C
Sure.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah. Although they were gone. They were doing Magnolia by the time.
- [43:00]
A
Right.
- [43:00]
B
But I mean, I think of it like this. And I was always just trying to go like this. I think Thunder down under was like that, but, like, it was like, what will add texture? And, like, you think of it like a platter of food. What will that. You know, so that it isn't samey, samey, samey. Because it's hard on a channel that is. Or brand. That's one. One thing.
- [43:20]
A
Yeah.
- [43:21]
B
Single genre. How do you have as much variety so that people don't get bored? And so, like, it wasn't a risk. It was just like, she's so unique. She pops, like. And, you know, you talk about one person versus two people. Like, it was good that you were one. Like, we don't have a lot of that.
- [43:34]
A
Yeah. One Solo talent, you mean?
- [43:36]
B
Yeah.
- [43:37]
A
Well. Oh. Oh. So I don't know how much was relayed to you, but you mentioned you decided to do something different because y' all weren't not only being asked to take risks. It's kind of like you weren't maybe allowed to as much as in the past.
- [43:54]
B
The ratings pressure. The ratings, as in, you call them views.
- [43:57]
A
Yeah.
- [43:58]
B
And I call them ratings or whatever, was getting higher and higher because cable, you know, is shrinking. Um, and so it was like, yeah, safer bets that, you know, will get ratings. And it's like, yeah, you. You never really know.
- [44:15]
A
And so when I was constantly, like, applying pressure and let's just call it complaining to everyone at HGTV about how my show at the beginning was, like, too truncated like everybody else. Did you, like, partly agree to some extent, but you couldn't say it because I don't know if you ever got that message. But, I mean, that was, like, probably what people could label me as. As being, like, a pain in the butt from that standpoint is because I was constantly being like, guys, this could be so much. I look like every other show is boring. Like, I remember saying it just like that. Like, not very well.
- [44:49]
B
That kind of opens up a whole new thing, which is, like, creators on, you know, television working for a corporate entity like Warner Brothers Discovery. Right. So I think it's, you know, it's. It's like at that time, it was like we were learning that, you know, people like Jen and others, you know, have done. Have had no. Nobody telling them what to do. Do your own content. You're the. You're the boss of you and, you know, and. And that sort of. We know our audience, too. And. And again, you want to go like this. And if you just go all the way here and you're like, you know, you were talking about the burp. You're like, burping all over the place. You know, that conservative audience.
- [45:31]
A
Yeah.
- [45:31]
B
You know, so it's like, it's like this balance. And I think that between then and now, because we're talking like six years ago, I think that the learn. You know, networks and streamers have really learned that, like, it's. It's different. It's a different kind of talent when someone's already has their own brand.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah.
- [45:50]
B
Has been making their own content and succeeding at it.
- [45:53]
A
Yeah.
- [45:53]
B
And to do something completely different on, like, you coming to HDTV and fitting right inside the box.
- [45:59]
A
Right.
- [45:59]
B
It's like not being true to your brand.
- [46:00]
A
Correct.
- [46:01]
B
And will piss your.
- [46:02]
A
That's how I felt.
- [46:03]
B
Yeah. People off. Yeah. And you told me that. I mean, we talked about it.
- [46:06]
A
Yeah. I remember there were so many times where I told Mike, I was like. And this sounds also kind of like, conceited and Please, I don't mean it that way. But, like, I hated being first because I felt like I was fighting a fight for now, which is much easier for creators to get on television. And still, I think networks will still have their say and think, obviously, and think what they think, but they're slowly, like, relaxing and probably letting loose because they have to pivot in order to stay, like, relevant and compete with social media platforms and other content consumers.
- [46:39]
C
Absolutely.
- [46:40]
A
But, like, it was it, like, I got down almost to 100 pounds season one because it was just. Well, it's just. It's stressful. And I had never been in an environment like that in it. I don't know, I probably could have handled things better as far as, like, taking a chill pill. But also every single thing that I fought for or got annoyed or put my foot down or for the sake of looking difficult to the network, I stand with all 10 toes on the ground for why I felt that way. You know what I mean? Like, I've never taken one back and been like, I should have not done that. It's like every single one, to this day, I'm still, like, I told you I wanted to do this season one. I remember. Okay. So you might remember this. There was a show that came on with the girl. So my show went on. I think the second girl who was labeled like an influencer after my show hit season one was Chelsea DeBauer. I don't know her in person, but we, her and her husband Cole do Down Home Fab. And I had talked to her through just us connecting on Instagram. She was a teen mom. She was on the show you did.
- [47:45]
B
Yeah.
- [47:46]
A
Great choice. Because I think her as a person is very endearing and I think it was a really good choice of talent. She also obviously had TV experience in a pretty engaged audience.
- [47:56]
B
So she was authentic and what she was.
- [47:57]
A
She was authentic. And so anyway, part of the world, like, yeah, her coming on. Yeah, her coming on. After I saw that, I instantly was like, they're doing this because my show worked. And like, this isn't. And it was smart. Like, you're trying to pull from a large platform. And then there was another girl who was after that. And I remember watching the first episode and I'm like, she's doing all these transitions that like how I edit my videos. And it's almost like a little bit of social media was into her show. And I remember being like, I tried to do this episode one, and everyone said it was horrible. However, the show. But the show didn't hit and it wasn't continued.
- [48:33]
B
Beautiful show, though.
- [48:34]
A
You know who I'm talking about. And I don't want to, like, do any of that, but I think that just shows that, like, just because someone is a quote unquote influencer, has a platform, doesn't mean it always translates to your audience, to your defense, what you're saying.
- [48:46]
B
Well, and so that. That was. I think that's a big learning across the industry. I think there was a whole, like, gold rush of, like, all right, they've got how many? How many?
- [48:54]
C
What's the followers and what's they have?
- [48:55]
B
Okay, they have that many. Let's put them on. And it happened at Food Network. Happened all. But not just where I worked. Like, I happened all. And then. And then I think there was a shift of, like, let's learn how right to do it. What do you.
- [49:07]
A
You have to look for things.
- [49:08]
B
Yeah, but what do you bring over and what do you leave? I mean, every. I guess the big learning over time was like, every platform has a different audience.
- [49:15]
C
Correct.
- [49:16]
B
You know, and every platform has different, like, expectations. And so you can be a little different, but how do you stay within that brand?
- [49:23]
A
Well, what's funny is what I was asking for is like, in my mind, common sense wise, even episode one, I knew I couldn't make content exactly the same on Instagram because I did know HGTV's demographic was a little Bit seasoned.
- [49:36]
B
Yeah, let's call them.
- [49:37]
C
It's an older demo from.
- [49:39]
A
It's an older demo. That may not be a bad thing.
- [49:41]
C
It's just reality where.
- [49:42]
A
But they weren't privy to the new reels and the transitions and they weren't on those trends yet. And they'd be like, what? They'd be like, what the heck just happened? And so what I think just my like business content creator had in is like where I wanted to do like one or two things an episode. Y' all went full into that show and the whole show and maybe to your point, you swung too much too soon versus giving them little bits. For example, putting the burp in season three and not season one. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [50:10]
C
Like for example, I we said I didn't want the. The toilet with flowers in it. I still so weird.
- [50:18]
B
Can you mention that in every single episode?
- [50:19]
C
It's one of my favorite things. I'm like, how did you get away with that? She's like, I don't know. I just did it.
- [50:24]
B
Do you know fun fact that in back in the day you couldn't show toilets on each.
- [50:30]
C
Oh, really?
- [50:30]
B
At all.
- [50:32]
C
Was it a censorship thing?
- [50:35]
B
Self censorship. It was like, people don't want to think about poops.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah.
- [50:38]
B
So.
- [50:38]
C
So you go from that to now fully embracing poop.
- [50:42]
B
Well, flowers.
- [50:43]
A
I'm pretty sure I said poop to Victor multiple times.
- [50:46]
B
So that's progress.
- [50:48]
C
So you're talking about some of the. The shows like, you know, from content creators that bring things over. Like even before Jen, we knew some, some YouTubers and content creators that created put shows on and they're like, let's make a production of your show. And it like failed wildly and they went right back to doing things on YouTube because it was. It just didn't translate to the audience and the way that people were consuming it or nor did they want the control of the network because they're like, we're telling us what to do and we have to be concerned about advertisers. Like we're just going to go back and what we do. But that. And now it's gone from like integrating then I've even seen now people just syndicating people's shows and just throwing them on Amazon. It's literally just the YouTube channel, which is a whole strange wild west right now. Where do you think it's going? What's your opinion? You don't even know.
- [51:28]
B
Yeah, well, I mean it's, it's. We're in this big transition and it is the Wild west. And I think it's like all the pieces are in the air and they'll settle.
- [51:37]
C
Yeah.
- [51:38]
B
And long form will still be here.
- [51:40]
C
I agree.
- [51:41]
B
YouTube will still be here, which is interesting.
- [51:43]
C
Podcasts are just long form content, which is a whole other thing. It's long form radio. That's all this is.
- [51:47]
B
Yeah.
- [51:48]
C
And, you know, of course you can see this and watch on it, but it creates real conversations. And you couldn't do this on a, on a tv, like, talk show. You know, you would have. You'd have three minutes, five minutes to talk. Tell us about your new production and you're on the next. Tell us about the crime show. You're like, that's it. It's promotion. And this is.
- [52:03]
B
People go to different things for different reasons. Like, they' come here because they don't know what you're going to talk about. Right. And where it's going to go. But then there's a comfort in going to a late night talk show and then having those, you know, those beats that you just said. Like, tell me about your new show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:19]
A
Okay, so tell me what you're doing now. What did you. You left HGTV to pursue.
- [52:26]
B
Well, I left HGTV to figure out what, what I was, what my bliss was. That was back to that. Follow your bliss. Like, I didn't know what I was going to do. And it had been almost 20 years at HGTV with all those different jobs, like, so good. And, and so I spent a year and a half.
- [52:45]
A
Good for you.
- [52:46]
B
Figuring that out. And, you know, again, like, being with my son as a teenager, which was, you know, the most. I'd been like, he'd come home and I was there all the time.
- [52:57]
A
He's like, mom, go to work.
- [52:58]
B
Go to work, Mom. But it was great. And then, so I, then I looked at different jobs and then I. So Courtney White, who had run Food Network before I did, she left to start her own production company called Butternut underneath a bigger production company called Wheelhouse. And Brent Montgomery, who runs and founded Wheelhouse, I'd known him for years and years and years. And Courtney said, you know, I am having the best time over here. And she and I had been talking over those 18 months, and I saw how, like, she was having such a good time, and she's like, would you, would you want to come over or at least talk to us about, you know, consulting about true crime? And I realized, you know, I really like true crime for my ID days the best. I like the Storytelling. I like how important the stories are. And, you know, they're more. They're more like a play. I mean, everything comes full circle. They're much more like a structure of a play.
- [53:58]
A
Right.
- [53:58]
B
Or a movie, you know?
- [53:59]
A
Yes.
- [54:00]
B
Than a format.
- [54:01]
C
Your college days, like, what you.
- [54:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I was like, yeah, I'll. I'll come talk to you. And then cut to, like, you know, just talking to them. You know, I kind of came alive and ended up starting my own production company, just like she had done. She now runs. She's now my boss. She now runs Wheelhouse Entertainment.
- [54:23]
A
But so wait, Wheelhouse is like the.
- [54:25]
B
Parent company, Big company. Parent company of the production company. Production companies, but a lot of other things. They actually work with content creators. They do marketing, investment, like.
- [54:38]
C
Sure.
- [54:38]
B
Work with brands. I mean, Brent is brilliant.
- [54:42]
A
So anything he can kind of invest into, he's going to. In the energy.
- [54:45]
B
I mean, he puts it all together. So it's called Wheelhouse because it spokes on a wheel.
- [54:49]
C
Makes sense.
- [54:50]
B
And so he looks at how everything is interrelated and. And he.
- [54:54]
A
He sounds like right up his alley.
- [54:55]
B
Yeah.
- [54:56]
A
You guys like the meaning?
- [54:57]
B
You guys should meet. It's incredible. He also has a nonprofit that helps people get into television. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And it's called Launchpad. Just to give it a plug.
- [55:09]
A
Yeah.
- [55:09]
B
And so what's the website?
- [55:11]
C
You know, it is launchpad.com or what is it?
- [55:13]
B
Well, go. Go to wheelhouse.com and then you can look at all the different things that. So it's not just a production company. And that was really appealing to me too.
- [55:22]
A
So you made a production company under.
- [55:23]
B
So I'm the label. It's called Label. And so he has a different labels or different verticals, so with different specialties. And mine is True Crime, and it's called Twist.
- [55:34]
C
Did you make. Is that your name or did you.
- [55:36]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God. Because there's twisted Brian about the naming. He almost fired me before I started because you.
- [55:41]
C
Why you?
- [55:42]
B
I was like, nope, no good. Nope. That's not what it should be.
- [55:45]
C
I mean, you talk about true crime, it kind of makes sense. And it's funny. I mean, Jen is a true crime aficionado. I don't know if you know this.
- [55:52]
A
Like, documentaries.
- [55:53]
C
That's her thing. Documentaries.
- [55:55]
A
I actually, before I even asked Jane to come on the podcast, which. Funny. Actually standing in this room, we just got done recording, and I told Haley, I was like, I have the number of, like, I scrolled by looking for something else. And your name Whizzed by. And I was like, I have the phone number from the previous HGTV president. What life do I live? And she was like, that is wild. I was like, I should ask her on the podcast. I go, that would be like my dream interview. And she was like, do it. And I was like, she's gonna say no. And it was like, dude, just text her. And I texted. And you texted back. You probably had your phone in front of you. Obviously. It was like 16 seconds. Sure. Exclamation point. I was like, yeah, she's not sure.
- [56:33]
C
She had text me. She's like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Shane's coming on the podcast. Jane's coming to the podcast. What? So it's funny. It's like. Is it like, you know, your name popped up on the credits. Yeah. So it's like.
- [56:42]
A
So we were watching the Girls on the High Bridge on Hulu.
- [56:46]
C
Very well done, by the way.
- [56:47]
B
Thank you very much.
- [56:48]
A
Say it. Watch.
- [56:49]
B
Capturing their killer. The Girls on the High Bridge on Hulu. If you like that sort of thing.
- [56:54]
C
It's very well done.
- [56:56]
A
Thank you. It's like, how do you say? It's. It's a tragic, devastating story. It's terrible, but it's captivating that that man is like in their tick. Like their tick tock footage. That right there, just that piece of evidence made that story like, insane to me. Like, we have him. How come we can't tell who this man.
- [57:14]
B
And you look and you look and you can't quite see who he is.
- [57:17]
A
Yes.
- [57:18]
C
What's unique about these stories? And again, because it's not sensationalizing trauma. That's what one thing is. Like, nobody wants that. That's not kind of the, you know, the murder porn aspect associated. Because it's not done in that way. It's done more about telling the story that actually gives the viewpoints of the parents and creates. To me, I liked about. Is it closes the loop in a lot of ways because I actually remember that story on the news. And it's. You have these little elements. You're like, oh, man, it's tragic. Feel bad for that family. And then you kind of like lose track of it. Right. But then it really does bring to the like, to me, it's like when you think it's like, it's honoring the story, honors the story. But also it's like, okay, be grateful for the moments you have for your family. Like, what can you learn from these lessons on that? Not saying, like, be fearful, because that's not the whole point of this thing is, but like, what do you do to talk to your kids about just reality? Right. I think that's an important thing. So. But it is a well done and it's not overly sensationalized. I think it's. That's what I liked about it.
- [58:13]
B
So just thank you.
- [58:14]
C
I don't.
- [58:14]
B
Yeah, I don't want to be that. That company. The overly sensationalized company.
- [58:18]
A
It wasn't. I just remember we were sitting there and it's like the end and it's like, you know, the five seconds of black and you're like, that's devastating. And then boom. The first credit, executive producer, Jane Latman. I was like, jane. And I texted you the next day. I took the screenshot. Yeah, I was like, jane. Well, I was just excited to see, like your name again. Like, that's big. You were the first credit ep. I mean, it was very well done.
- [58:43]
C
So you have other ones coming out that you're excited about?
- [58:45]
B
I am pitching and pitching and pitching. We do have a series called Bodies in the Water, which is for id. I know, I know. You know, I think part of what's interesting about that is just for the investigators, it creates all sorts of. It creates much more challenge. Right. Sometimes you have to. It's harder to ID them and the forensics are harder anyway. So that will be coming on id, but we don't have an air date yet. And we also did in our first year. It's only been around now for a year and a bit. Okay. We also did a fast turn on Max for. On Luigi Mangione. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [59:21]
A
Wait, I think I remember seeing that.
- [59:23]
B
You probably did.
- [59:23]
C
Yeah.
- [59:24]
B
He, he.
- [59:25]
C
You know, you can tell the New.
- [59:27]
B
York story where he shot the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. Remember that? And then he went.
- [59:33]
C
We talked what year just happened?
- [59:35]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [59:38]
C
So here's the crazy thing.
- [59:39]
B
You will. When you.
- [59:39]
C
Here's. You will. You'll know this guy because.
- [59:41]
B
Because it was national.
- [59:42]
C
It's national. And the crazy thing is it's like he's kind of this younger, good looking guy who. Shooter or the shooter. Shooter. And it's.
- [59:49]
B
Everybody like, was all like, oh, yeah.
- [59:52]
C
It'S because it's been. But it's also because what the crazier thing about it is, it does. And this is a bigger topic and a whole sidebar on it. The fact that people were kind of on Luigi's side on this guy is honestly just a CEO of, of a company. But it's because it's healthcare and there's so many polarization issues associated to the national health care system that we have right now.
- [60:13]
A
Being he was mad.
- [60:15]
C
Yeah. And there's a whole thing and she probably. I'm not going to give it away. I'm gonna imagine. But there's a lot of background story to hit, like denial of claims that he had. And I think he started having some, you know, obviously mental trauma and you know, sociopathic, psychopathic issues associated really bad back issues. Yeah. And it's just trauma and back, by the way. And I'm in back is, you know, it's crazy. Watch it. You need to watch it because again, I haven't watched the thing, but I know enough about the story. But what's weird about is, is that how much it does show a reflection of how much frustration people have in the way our system works when you actually are like, hey, that's okay. Because it's not okay.
- [60:49]
B
It's not okay.
- [60:50]
C
It's not okay. There's nothing okay about that.
- [60:52]
A
Okay. So are you more so with me and why I like. It's not even like I'm a true crime junkie. I wouldn't put it that strong. But I'm very much a. Even like with books, audiobooks. I'm non fiction pretty much only like if it didn't actually. It's not a true story. Didn't actually happen. It's so sad. But I'm kind of like, what's the point of really spending time on this? So you are doing true crime. You love it. Do you feel that way? Are you very much a lover of all stories?
- [61:20]
B
All stories.
- [61:21]
A
Okay.
- [61:21]
B
I'm a story person.
- [61:22]
A
Yeah. I mean that makes. That's why you have been good.
- [61:24]
B
Thank you. I saw a report card for when I was in second grade and he was talking about writing how I was writing stories. I was like, oh, I don't remember that.
- [61:32]
A
So you're a creative. Yeah. You're a creative.
- [61:34]
C
Have you ever considered.
- [61:35]
B
And I love scripted.
- [61:35]
C
That's what I'm saying. Have you. Have you done any scripted?
- [61:37]
B
A little bit here and there. I d. Did a couple movies, but it's a whole different business.
- [61:43]
C
And you spent your career in non scripted at this point.
- [61:47]
B
Yeah. And there's something about real stories that I mean and interviewing people in, you.
- [61:52]
C
Know, what's your favorite show that's scripted right now?
- [61:55]
B
Oh, you know, there's not a lot right now that I'm loving nothing something. Things to come back. I loved Ginny in Georgia.
- [62:02]
C
Like I don't only watch crime Haley's not her head. I don't even know that. What is Genie.
- [62:06]
A
I need to watch that. I haven't ever seen that, but a lot of people talk about it. Jane, can you.
- [62:11]
B
Well, I don't know that you'd like it. That was one I watched without my husband.
- [62:14]
A
Okay. That's good that you say that, because he is pretty much guilty.
- [62:17]
B
It's not guilty.
- [62:18]
A
Yeah.
- [62:19]
B
Yeah.
- [62:19]
A
Is your husband pretty much like. He just likes the boy movies. Typical standard, I think.
- [62:24]
B
Watch things like your friends and neighbors on Apple.
- [62:26]
A
We did that, too.
- [62:29]
C
That was well done. I like John Hamlow.
- [62:30]
B
I do.
- [62:30]
C
So do I. I think he's a great actor. He's kind of the same character and all things, but we love Mad Men.
- [62:34]
A
Love John.
- [62:35]
C
Absolutely love Mad Men. And it's like the whole story arcs, the character development. Yeah, I thought it was fantastic.
- [62:40]
B
Me, too. We didn't watch it until, like, Covet or something.
- [62:43]
C
Isn't that the best, though?
- [62:43]
B
Yeah, it's kind of.
- [62:44]
C
When we did, you could just go through. That's how we watched Breaking Bad.
- [62:47]
B
Yeah.
- [62:47]
C
We caught Breaking Bad, like, at the last season. We're like. And it's. You know, that's a.
- [62:51]
A
You won't rewatch stuff with me, though. I want to watch rewatch Mad Men again.
- [62:55]
C
I'm not a rewatch.
- [62:55]
B
I would re Watch it, too, but there's so many episodes. It's like.
- [62:59]
A
It's a commitment.
- [62:59]
B
It is.
- [63:00]
A
I like when someone asked me, like, favorite episodes ever. Mad Men is top three. It might be my number one. And it. Which is so not like. I also love Desperate Housewives for something about that makes me feel good, like, nostalgic. When I watched it, Breaking Bad was amazing. So I guess I do like more intense things.
- [63:17]
C
But you do have trash tv. You like to watch mindless television.
- [63:20]
A
I do. What I do. Well, the trashiest are, like, the reality TV shows, like, on Netflix. Like, actually, I don't think.
- [63:31]
B
Sorry, Netflix.
- [63:33]
A
Love is blind. I don't think is.
- [63:34]
B
Actually.
- [63:34]
A
I wouldn't classify that as trash. I like that one.
- [63:36]
C
We'll call it.
- [63:37]
A
We'll call it, like, Love Island. Super Love Island's pretty. But I'll be like, oh, yeah, there's Watching that. So I just started. I just started because everyone's talking about it, and.
- [63:48]
C
Yeah, but I get to call it trash television.
- [63:51]
A
Well, for example, like, I talked to Haley, and I'm like. I'm like, I need you to watch more tv. So when we're sitting here working on, you know, whatever planning, I. We need to discuss these things. But you don't watch anything. And I'm like actually don't watch Love Island. It's not that great. But you do need to watch X, Y or Z. What else did I like that I was really excited about? I'm like drawing a blank now that I'm on the spot. I watch TV every day because I like it's the only thing that makes me sit and like you do that.
- [64:16]
C
You sometimes will do that at night just to wind down. You'll throw something on and she. She has her earbuds in and she'll like be doing something in the bathroom. And that's. That's what I've noticed you doing kind of most of your kind of one off random TV shows that we don't want to watch together.
- [64:28]
B
But yeah, I do the same thing.
- [64:30]
C
Yeah. She wants me like we'll get into documentaries. That's things I'll watch with her and then with me. It's like, you know, a lot of the, you know, Apple's been doing some good, good stuff out there and so it's like.
- [64:38]
B
Did you guys watch the morning show because that's coming back.
- [64:40]
A
Yes.
- [64:41]
C
They dropped off season three for some reason.
- [64:44]
A
I don't know why we dropped off. Maybe we got.
- [64:46]
C
And there's probably, you know, it's probably another something we got into. It's the thing I don't like watching different series. It's like I want to finish the one and then beyond that's we'll have.
- [64:55]
B
Two going at once depending on our mood.
- [64:58]
A
I like to switch around. Like did you watch the studio with.
- [65:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. I haven't finished it. Because you can go back to that. It's not serialized.
- [65:05]
A
Yeah.
- [65:05]
B
So you can just go back and catch an episode. And it's so light. Like a little less light. Like a little. A little more like you relationships and gripping. Yeah. But it's funny.
- [65:16]
C
What I thought is funny I liked about that was the long takes.
- [65:19]
B
Yeah.
- [65:19]
C
I thought that was incredibly. It was like wow, this is like a full on play. Like what's that Netflix series out right now? We didn't watch it.
- [65:26]
B
Adolescence.
- [65:27]
C
All one take. Right. It's a wild. What I've heard about. I haven't seen that.
- [65:32]
A
Okay, I'm gonna pitch to you.
- [65:33]
C
Is it. I heard that.
- [65:34]
A
I'm gonna pitch something to you and I need you to put on your rebel pants and really think about this as well. Pants just made that. I don't know what is that your risk taking pants. Okay. And I know they're already on. I know they're already on. As a producer and developer. So the studio kind of showed the behind the scenes and exposed his world. Right.
- [65:55]
B
Of.
- [65:56]
A
He did tv. Right.
- [65:57]
C
It was. It was movies.
- [65:58]
A
What if we made a scripted show about home renovation and you have the host and all the craziness behind it, and then I'm like, the showrunner. Like, it's a cameo, or I'm like, a producer and we produce this and we're both from where we came from.
- [66:14]
B
But it's a scripted show.
- [66:14]
A
It's scripted, but it would be like office lifting a curtain.
- [66:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That could be very funny and.
- [66:22]
A
And risky.
- [66:24]
B
It depends what the content is.
- [66:26]
A
But, I mean, I wanted to.
- [66:27]
B
But in a scripted show, it wouldn't have to. I mean, you can go there, but there have been a few things like that.
- [66:34]
A
Have there?
- [66:34]
B
Well, there was one, like, with an.
- [66:35]
A
With a former HGTV host in making a cameo. Yeah. I would be like, probably not.
- [66:40]
B
I'm trying to think. There was one like that I haven't seen that has to do with a murder. There was one that. I mean, they're just like, I've heard.
- [66:48]
A
Of, and you could be in it too.
- [66:50]
B
No, I don't want to.
- [66:53]
C
She's like. She's like, I wasn't ready for a pitch right now. I'm not sure. Let me run the analytics on this one.
- [66:58]
A
I'm not even an actor. I have.
- [66:59]
B
No, but I mean, those things are fun. Like, I do think. I think the studio. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's so crazy.
- [67:07]
C
No, I think.
- [67:08]
A
I think it's risky.
- [67:09]
C
Jenna talked about this. I don't know if it's risky because I. One of my things. And I think this part of the reason why people like seeing true crime and seeing, you know, things like the studio, whatnot. It's like, there's obviously true crime is reality, but you're seeing behind the scenes. You're seeing what's happening with the DA's, you're seeing what's happened with the police. You're seeing what's happened, the families, and you're connecting all these dots together. You're like, wow, I didn't. Because all you're hearing during the time is like, a soundbite from news or the. The. The press announcement from the chief police, and you're not seeing all the stuff that's actually happening. And even, like, the attorneys are like, wow, all the investigations. So you're putting your scene behind the scenes, and that's where the studio Gives this little bit of, like, elements of, like, probably there's got to be elements of truth in this, right?
- [67:50]
A
You. There are, and you have. The.
- [67:51]
B
One of the actors said that they were basing their character. I can't remember, on our old. Our seat. Not. Oh, he's still there. Our CEO, my ex boss.
- [68:00]
C
I heard that that's. We actually, we were in Cabo. We were with a couple there randomly with a couple producers in there and that were like. Like. And he was buddies with them. He goes, oh, it's 100% him. It's literally what. He was the one who said that, too. It's funny is you're the second person to confirm it. He goes, yeah, well, I read it. Yeah.
- [68:14]
B
Whether it's true or not, we have to all be careful about fake news, but, you know, we have to look at what's real and what's not. But. But I believe it. You know that. I believe that it was part of it. Like.
- [68:23]
C
Yeah, but it was the Seth Rogen character, right? That's. Who was. It was. I don't think it was the Breaking Bad Guy. He's the one that was Brian Cranston. I don't think Brian. Cancer. He said it was on him because he said he was a. He was like, he wanted. He was like a movie guy. He was like, they wanted it to be real. And it was like this. This. This tie between, like, making money and ratings and also cinema, because that's a different thing, right? Like. And you've kind of even said that you kind of alluded to that, where it's like, the risks versus the return. I mentioned that in the first podcast. Well, the first season. Because I do think it is a business standpoint. It's like, you want to do things, you want to take care of the audience, but the same time, you got to take care of your advertisers. That's how you get paid. And if it's about ratings, and I asked one of the. One of the producers, I was like, it was one of the first times. It was season one. I asked you, I said, what? What? Because I. I said, what does success look like on a television show? What is it? What. What do you feel it? That's why I said, what does it look like? I go, what is that? How do you. What does success look like? Is it, you know, what are you going to be happy with? And she goes, oh, it's ratings at the end. That's it.
- [69:25]
B
Yeah.
- [69:25]
C
And I was like, so you're not even about. You're happy about the way it turned out. She goes, no, I like that personally. But the only thing that really matters at the end of the day is ratings. And I was like, honestly? And I was like, well, that makes sense. That's, you know, that's what it is, you know, and that business.
- [69:38]
A
Yeah, it's a business, but it's good.
- [69:40]
B
To have, like, one goal. Like, you just want people to watch it.
- [69:43]
C
Yeah.
- [69:43]
B
You know, and like, if you can get. And you have to know your audience, you have to, like, research them and know what they, like, know what they don't, like, know it. You know. Oh, they turn. Every time we do X, Y and Z, they turn it off. Like, okay, I better pay attention to that. You can be like, but I don't agree with them, so I'm just going to do it anyway. No. Yeah, don't do it.
- [69:59]
A
That was me. She was doing my impression.
- [70:02]
B
No, I wasn't.
- [70:03]
A
I don't care what. You have both.
- [70:05]
B
Like, I'm such a Pollyanna. You can have both.
- [70:07]
A
Yeah.
- [70:07]
B
You know. Yeah. Really good content and 100%.
- [70:11]
C
That's what you should have.
- [70:12]
B
Yeah.
- [70:12]
C
I mean.
- [70:13]
B
And then that translates to money.
- [70:14]
C
The problem is, is there are. We talked. I'm not saying this trash tv, because I'm using that term out there, but there is. There are content out there that are just for, like, shock.
- [70:21]
B
Yeah.
- [70:21]
C
And you get rating. It's drama. It's drama. It's drama. And it's not like, is it making you feel better? It's like, I kind of look at that when I watch shows. Like, how I feel when I get done with this. And we. I've had. We've watched things before. I'm like, I'm out. I don't feel good.
- [70:32]
A
He doesn't like the documentary stuff.
- [70:34]
C
Some of them. If it makes. If it gives me a place where it's like, it's not bringing that bliss or that joy. Like, if this is bringing me a place where I don't, like, I'll be like, yeah, this one's not for me. I don't like the way this is making me feel. And I know it's a sensitive side of it, but it's reality.
- [70:46]
B
No, that's. That's cool. And I think in terms of creating content, it's the same thing. Everybody gets to decide, but, like, yep. You want to be proud of what you do.
- [70:53]
C
Y.
- [70:54]
A
So we're going to make this show. That's awesome.
- [70:55]
C
Is. Are you right now. Is your. Is this current venture you're doing right now one of the things you're most proud of because it sounds like you're. Yeah.
- [71:02]
B
I mean, just sort of reinventing and trying something. I mean, I, I mean, frankly. And I was terrified at the beginning because it had been so long since I had produced and I. And that. So it's like everything was different anyway. And I never like run a production company and you know, executives don't always translate over to production companies. But again, I had the best like, infrastructure around me and support and like. So yeah, it was outside my comfort zone, but it was also like I knew it was the right next step.
- [71:33]
A
I mean. Yeah, you like reached, quote unquote, the top to a lot of, A lot of people who don't know a lot of different jobs or careers. But like when you hear president, you think top dog and you literally left that to completely build just like for funsies, like and to be challenged, obviously, and fulfilled.
- [71:51]
B
Yeah, that was a hard decision.
- [71:53]
A
I'm.
- [71:53]
B
They call it golden handcuffs for a reason. Right?
- [71:56]
A
Yeah.
- [71:56]
C
Oh yeah.
- [71:56]
A
I can relate to that.
- [71:57]
C
That's true.
- [71:58]
A
Yeah.
- [71:58]
C
You're like, you're doing things. You're like, I want to do something different, but at the same time it's hard. It's hard to leave something that's been. Yeah, yeah.
- [72:06]
B
What I'm doing now is nowhere near.
- [72:08]
C
The hardest thing is though, when, when I was, before I went to the entrepreneurial world, like I was at the company actually treated me really well. It really did. It wasn't a bad company, it weren't awful. People was. I was very, I wasn't satisfied what I was doing. I didn't feel like I was growing anymore. That's part where you're like, you get that weird conundrum. What do I do? What else am I going to do? Especially, you know, I was in my 40s at the time. It's like what, you know, it's a different, it's like hard to read, reinvent yourself at that point.
- [72:30]
B
But yeah.
- [72:31]
A
So I guess this is another question for what you experienced at a major network, but also now what you're doing for yourself. How do you handle like the pressure of like the competition of the TV landscape, but also like getting ratings like.
- [72:45]
C
Yeah. And competing against direct to consumer and you know, I mean, it's a hard.
- [72:50]
B
Business and it's harder now than ever and it's, it's. Yeah, it's hard on the, on the corporate side, it's hard on the production side. It's very competitive. And again, I think it comes down to like What I've done my whole career is just keep your eye on the prize. Like, what is that thing you need to do next? Like.
- [73:06]
A
Right.
- [73:06]
B
You can't think about, you know, some. I mean, I shouldn't say. Sometimes I don't chase a story because I know it's going to be too competitive.
- [73:14]
C
Yeah.
- [73:15]
B
And I don't want to be. I also think in true crime, I don't want to be that person, like, elbowing everybody out of the way. No. I want to, you know, get the access to. It's a. A. It's a. These stories are very real. Like, these are real people, and real has happened to them.
- [73:29]
A
Yeah.
- [73:29]
B
Excuse me. And sorry about that.
- [73:32]
A
No, you're fine. It is, though. That's a good word for it. Like, this stuff is.
- [73:35]
B
Is bad.
- [73:36]
A
Heartbreaking.
- [73:37]
B
And so. So I'm like, you know what? I'll take a pass on that one. But it. It. It's. Yeah, it's very hard. And it's funny because I don't think of myself as a very competitive person, so I don't think I'm thinking about the competition.
- [73:49]
A
I don't think you get to be a president of a major network by not being a better.
- [73:52]
B
I mean, I guess. Yeah, I'm gonna call you out on that. I guess. I want hd, like, competitive for. I mean, I got very competitive when it was a show I wanted.
- [73:59]
A
Yeah.
- [74:00]
B
And then somebody else wanted it.
- [74:01]
A
Yeah.
- [74:02]
C
Wait a second.
- [74:03]
A
You're like, no, I see. I want that.
- [74:05]
B
Like, I want that.
- [74:06]
A
I want to bet on that. I would be that way, too. And this might be a really stupid, like, question slash statement, and correct me if I'm wrong. You say it's, like, so competitive, but wouldn't with streaming and it's like, unlimited new stuff coming out every single week, wouldn't it be less competitive than, like, standard cable when there wasn't as many? So how does that work?
- [74:24]
B
Fewer hours are being produced overall. You know, if you think about a 247 network that every hour of every day shows are on it now, they don't have premieres every hour of every day, but they want to have premieres as much as they can during prime time, which is going to come extinct. Right. You need think about the number of hours. So they used to order, like, 13 episodes of this and 26 episodes of that, and they'd renew it right away and never want it to be off the air and all that kind of stuff. And now with streaming, it's more like what they're pushing to the front Right. They can always go to their back catalog. Like it's always there, all that other stuff. Do you know how when you turn on Netflix and you see like something in the front page, but you look and it's from 2021.
- [75:10]
A
Right.
- [75:10]
C
From.
- [75:11]
B
You know, they're boosting it. They can. Yeah.
- [75:13]
A
Right.
- [75:14]
B
And so. Yeah, so like the library there is so deep. And they're also acquiring shows that are cheaper, not producing them themselves from other countries. And I mean, so there's just fewer hours. So it's gotten. There's a lot harder.
- [75:30]
C
Do you. Okay, that's a hot take question. I'm curious.
- [75:34]
A
Be careful.
- [75:34]
C
No, yeah. It's not even hot take because it's super relevant, especially within creative world. How do you think AI is going to impact your world? Like hugely Good or bad?
- [75:45]
A
Both.
- [75:45]
C
I actually agree with that.
- [75:46]
B
Yeah.
- [75:47]
C
Depends how you use it. Right.
- [75:48]
B
Yeah.
- [75:48]
C
So what could be good from it?
- [75:50]
B
Oh, I mean, I don't even know. I mean, so much. I mean, I think, I mean, yeah. Creative. I mean, obviously it saves time in terms of research. Although you at this point, you still have to check your research pretty carefully because it's just pulling things.
- [76:01]
C
Yeah.
- [76:02]
B
I was thinking about this this morning about like how much falsities there are on the Internet.
- [76:06]
C
So yours was not false. Jen's talk track on you from ChatGPT was cultural. We know. We fact check.
- [76:12]
B
I know where they got some of that stuff too. But like.
- [76:17]
A
Yeah.
- [76:18]
B
And I think it just. Speed. It makes things go faster. A lot of different things. Whether it's, you know, putting, you know, but. But then it hurt. It hurts jobs.
- [76:28]
C
That it does. Yep. Hard.
- [76:30]
B
But then it creates. Hopefully will create new jobs. I also think the thing that I'm most worried about, and it's really not about my work, it's for my son. And it's how our kids going to know what's real and what's not.
- [76:42]
C
Amen to that.
- [76:43]
A
It's terrifying.
- [76:44]
C
The only thing is, I think the only.
- [76:45]
B
I don't even know, you know, what.
- [76:46]
C
The hope is for me.
- [76:47]
B
Yeah.
- [76:48]
C
Is that they're just going to believe nothing's real and then they're going to have to make their own decisions. Because I've even been told my kids at this point, like, if you see something that seems probably not real, it's not real. Like if there's any inkling of a doubt, it's not really. It's not real. Like the unbelievable is like it's. That is hard. That discernment is a. Is a completely complex do you guys.
- [77:07]
B
Do this where like my husband will say like here's what I read this and I'll be like, really? And then I'll be like, wait, let's dig in. And then we dig in together and we go something we wanted to be true.
- [77:16]
C
That's funny. Especially that selection bodies that ways you're like things you want to be true. We talk. We actually did two episodes on conspiracy theories and we had this whole thing because like some of it's like you like really cool if it happened, but.
- [77:26]
A
At the same time I'm like, why are we talking about aliens for 40 minutes? I hate this day. I don't like conspiracy theories.
- [77:33]
C
But. Yeah, but that, that, that isn't. No. Okay. So Jen mentioned this earlier to me and I mean, I guess again, Mo could ask. Your son is going to into acting. Is that accurate?
- [77:42]
B
Yes, he's studying acting and first year college. First year he first month of college. But he's been gone for a few weeks.
- [77:48]
C
But from an AI standpoint even on actors in that mean, like the thing is you now have these like legacy people that are selling their own rights to be able to create like a, you know, an A list celebrity that can forever act at their prime time.
- [78:01]
A
Forever. No, I think the industry and us as people who want to consume will always want new actual actors, I think.
- [78:08]
B
And we'll also want live. Live real stuff.
- [78:10]
C
They actually, I think like plays and real things are going to even my opinion is that those will become even more popular.
- [78:18]
A
Oh like look at how popular sports.
- [78:21]
B
I mean sports has always been popular. There is something happening now that's like it's. I think it's. It's. Sports are more popular than ever because it's.
- [78:29]
A
It's Tarleton State beating Army was.
- [78:31]
C
Oh, come on.
- [78:31]
A
No, no. AI could do that. That was wild. Go tsu. So I went to Alton State, he went to West Point and they played recently in Tarleton State. 1. Thank you for asking that question.
- [78:41]
C
I was like, she seemed really. She's riveted by that one. She's like, what the glaze? I'm just so frustrated about that one.
- [78:48]
A
Talk about your son for a minute.
- [78:49]
C
So army beat Navy.
- [78:50]
A
Jane is obviously. We've talked for probably over an hour now of your successes and how truly I'm not like, you're impressive. Like, it's very inspiring your story. I know you don't think your story is cool, but your story is so cool. And now you're a mom, so you just put your one and only boy child into college.
- [79:09]
B
My boy child.
- [79:10]
A
Your boy child. I was like, boy child, young man, into college. I know I'll cry if I, like, think too hard on that day.
- [79:17]
B
Don't. Don't think too hard.
- [79:19]
A
How was that?
- [79:20]
B
It sucked.
- [79:21]
A
Tell me, like, how did you prepare?
- [79:23]
B
Like, I mean, I think, I think anybody who has kids, go to college, you know, leave home, knows. Like, I think they train you because first, you know, you're driving them everywhere and then they're driving so you see less of them. Then they're going out with their friends and you see less of them. Like, it was a little gradual in terms of, like, time spent, but it's still, it, it's still a huge change. And when I say it, you know, sucked, I don't mean that because I'm really proud of him emotionally, but I miss him. And like, but he's. But every time I hear that from him, that he's doing well or happy with something, whatever, loves a class or made some new friends, like, I feel better. And then every time he's stressed out and like worried, you know, I feel less better. He's also all the way across the country. Yeah, but yeah, it just goes by like that, you know, you. Even though it doesn't.
- [80:24]
A
I don't.
- [80:25]
B
It's like really messes with your mind and then you're like, wait, am I old now?
- [80:30]
A
Okay, so I was gonna say that. And I go, I don't know if this is every person thing or if I want to admit this, but like, when big milestones happen, it's not necessarily that I'm sad for the child. It's like it's an end of an era of my life. It is so self centered, but like, it makes you realize life is short and like, I'm gonna die soon. Like, that's what I feel.
- [80:49]
B
This one is has that more than anything else. Previously the Empty Nest.
- [80:53]
C
Empty nest?
- [80:54]
B
Yeah, it's like calling it that. Like, I know people call it other things, like great opportunities for fun.
- [80:59]
A
No, that's cheesy. And we don't want any part of that fake happiness crap. It's sad. No, I. Someone DM'd me something one time when I was talking about a birthday or like, I was crying. I wasn't crying because I quite frankly will shut the camera off anytime I start to tear up on Instagram. I'm not a crier into the phone, but I was getting emotional about something and the lady was like, in a dm, don't remember her name, but she said, you've got to think about it as every single year is a total gift. And that your child is so lucky to have that year. And that aging them, growing up is a gift that not every parent gets to experience. And that kids that for whatever reason, don't get to stick around for that year. They would give anything for them to get old, essentially, and to leave and to do them out. And like, now every time I'm sad about something, I, like, always end it with that thought. And it instantly, like, shuts down my sadness. And I'm like, you're right. Thank you, God. This is a gift. And tragedies happen all the time. When recently it's Camp mystic and, like, those parents don't get to be sad for their next birthday. And so not to, like, go deep, but, like, turns my perspective around. And I got to tell myself that when they go to college, Jane. Because it's easier said now, but.
- [82:07]
C
Well, that's why they call it the present.
- [82:09]
B
Yeah. Because it's a gift. Yeah.
- [82:12]
C
The present. I heard that on Kung Fu Panda.
- [82:16]
A
Seriously.
- [82:17]
C
I did.
- [82:18]
A
That's actually really deep. That's actually really. We were like. Jane and I were like.
- [82:23]
C
She's like, yes, yes. We love that Jack Black. Thank you.
- [82:26]
A
That's hilarious.
- [82:27]
B
And I'm also curious to see, like, how our relationship. How a relationship changes, you know, that's true.
- [82:33]
A
I hope for the better.
- [82:34]
B
Yeah.
- [82:35]
A
Okay.
- [82:35]
C
I told.
- [82:35]
B
Oh, I didn't mean for the worst. I mean, like, yeah.
- [82:38]
A
As adults. Like, yeah, I see it already.
- [82:40]
B
Even after a few weeks, like, it's. He's so interesting.
- [82:45]
C
Jen and I talked about that. And it's. Obviously, we're not there yet because our kids are, you know, 12 and under at this point. We're still in this, like, evolution. But I have friends that have kids that are out of college. I've graduated at this point that I went to school with, and, you know, their relations change. And I just think about our journeys and our. With our parents, like, reflect. We're not going to be that much different than our parents. Like, that relate, like, hopefully. Right. But it's. I think, as I told Jen, I said to me, what do you mean that. Well, they're saying, the best. The best. And the most impactful change of relationship I had with my parents was when I realized they were just people and that it actually created a different relationship in a really genuine, good way where I could actually do build that. You still have that respect in the podcast of it. You're always gonna. My mom's. My mom is my Person. I love her. She's the sweetest human being. She still lives in Wisconsin, but it's still. There's, you know, there's that love and, you know, empathy and care. And they call my mom and, you know, she's gonna. She's gonna. I can always tell me I'm right, but it's the same time.
- [83:41]
A
It's whatever Mike does. No wrong to shoe.
- [83:44]
C
It's like, it's still from a standpoint of like, hey, if there's any frustrations you had about things growing up, or like, our kids look back on us and say, oh, you worked on your phone. To me, you're home. It's like, well, hopefully it's something they realize. Like, well, that was their jobs.
- [83:53]
A
That's what I don't want to think. See about.
- [83:55]
C
Like, no, but they will realize what I did.
- [83:57]
A
There's a journey in their minds that's. I don't want to think about that.
- [84:01]
C
I think every parent, every. I think every person at some point realizes that. Like, again, I think that's part of the. The evolution of who we are as people is that there's that arc. Your son has left the home. And that's, you know, from our standpoint, there's a. Like, we look at that as a. To me, I look at almost as a biblical thing. It's like your parent, you leave the home and then you. You enter your own world, and your parents are always going to be there, but your. Your life and his journey is. Is there. And that's awesome that you. I mean, it sounds like you raised a great son.
- [84:26]
B
He is great. Yes.
- [84:28]
C
So he still. And he still talks to you, which is awesome too, right?
- [84:31]
B
More now than he did the last last couple weeks, like, trying to say goodbye to his friends.
- [84:35]
C
See, there you go.
- [84:36]
B
Now he's like, needing advice. You know, that's.
- [84:39]
C
And that's another thing is again, when you realize your parents, like, oh, crap, they actually went through these things. So you talk to your mom about those things. Some of the big best conversations you probably ever had.
- [84:46]
A
I'm super close with my parents.
- [84:48]
B
That's so nice.
- [84:48]
C
But that was probably happened when as you were older too, right? We were like, mom, how did this navigation.
- [84:54]
A
I still ask for advice to this day, like, on things for sure. Like when something happens, it's like, I'm gonna tell Mike. I'm gonna tell my parents and like, Mike, one of my closest friends, two of my closest friends. Like, there's like four people.
- [85:11]
C
How's your husband managed all the side of Things with him leaving, I think.
- [85:15]
B
He'S same as me. We're like, this is really strange, but I think we're starting to figure out what, like, make plans. You know what I mean?
- [85:22]
C
Sailboats.
- [85:23]
B
Yeah, that might be. There might be sailboats in our future. Yeah, we're starting to go. Okay, well, now we can take vacations. Not when everybody else is taking vacations. Where do we want to go? Like, yeah, we. We have. We're hatching plans.
- [85:37]
A
How long have you been married?
- [85:39]
B
20 years in October.
- [85:40]
A
Good for you. Wow. That's a long time. Okay, so, not that. Not to get, like, personal, but, like, I would imagine. And maybe I've heard my mom say this, but does your relationship feel slightly different when there's no more kids around? Yeah, like, you're.
- [85:55]
B
I mean, it's only been a couple weeks, so we're still doing our same routines. Right. Like, all the TV shows we talk about. That's like, our thing.
- [86:01]
A
Yeah.
- [86:04]
B
But, yeah, I mean, a little bit. You know, check in in a little bit. It's just so new.
- [86:08]
A
Yeah. Lord, have Debbie back for updates in Jane's marriage.
- [86:13]
B
Just add. And Jane.
- [86:15]
C
Yeah.
- [86:16]
A
That's awesome. Well, no, I've heard people say, like, you. It's, like, not to be negative, but sometimes kids leave and you look at each other and you're like, what happened? I barely know you. Like, they're not as close. Yeah. It's good that you guys are, like, already planning.
- [86:30]
B
Yeah. And I also wonder, like, one kid is different from two kids, Is different from three kids, different from five kids.
- [86:35]
A
Right.
- [86:36]
C
That's true.
- [86:36]
B
And every marriage is different.
- [86:37]
A
Yeah.
- [86:38]
B
Yeah. No, there's a little. Not. I hardly know you. We're not going through that. But just sort of, what now? I mean, we miss him a lot.
- [86:45]
A
Yeah.
- [86:46]
B
We love them so much. No, I'm sure.
- [86:48]
A
Well, that's really exciting.
- [86:49]
B
You.
- [86:50]
C
What you should do is do what Jen's parents did. As soon as all the kids leave, sell your house. Move.
- [86:54]
A
They move into town. Home, like, in the city.
- [86:57]
B
Oh, we've thought about moving closer to where he's going to college.
- [87:00]
A
No.
- [87:01]
C
So this is. This only cracks me up because this is how much like, Jen is. Jen is. Is a person anchored with sort of, like, routine and tradition. She is a strangely extrovert, introvert type of person. And like, her home she grew up in.
- [87:13]
A
Mental is the word you're trying to say.
- [87:15]
C
She.
- [87:15]
B
That was hard. Then she.
- [87:17]
C
Well, she. She's like, you got mad at your parents for selling the home. Like, I was like, I'm like, do.
- [87:25]
A
You guys even want us to bring our children here? Like, I was like, who are you? They're like country. Like we had five, eight weight horses and then they're selling to move in an 800 square foot high rise condo.
- [87:35]
C
Yeah. They're having fun.
- [87:36]
A
Yeah. But we.
- [87:37]
C
And it is. They earn that.
- [87:38]
A
No, no, they aren't done yet. No.
- [87:42]
B
They didn't want to take care of it anymore, right. No.
- [87:44]
A
100.
- [87:45]
B
Yeah.
- [87:45]
A
They in my parents. Where I not talking about my parents, but they got married at 22. They had a kid at 23. Married at 22. So they were really, really, really young. Into their defense, like, they didn't have that. Now people get married in the 30s and they're like living it up and going to parties and nightlife and they went straight into family and work. So I think it was their time to be like, let's do something we don't.
- [88:09]
C
Different.
- [88:10]
B
Yeah.
- [88:10]
A
And they did.
- [88:10]
B
Yeah.
- [88:11]
C
And I don't think there's any, you know, I was like, again, I don't, I don't have as much attachment. I was like, just, that's our house. I mean, it's their house, not your house. I mean we, this is our house. Like, like, what are you. Like, what are you talking about? Like, that's not your house anymore.
- [88:23]
A
Are you going to sell your house?
- [88:24]
C
But they move.
- [88:25]
B
Yeah, I don't think so. I love our house. Yeah, but we might rent it out.
- [88:30]
C
Okay.
- [88:30]
A
That's the same thing as selling in my mind.
- [88:33]
B
Well, not. Yeah, because you can be more.
- [88:35]
C
Go back. Yeah. No, no, but your parents, they did the two years in the condo and then they're now in a house again. And it's like, and it's. The thing is like, you know, they wanted to have places for all the grandkids and once Jen's brothers had kids as well, it was a different story. They're like, we need a bigger spot. We want to have a place that everyone can sensualize.
- [88:49]
A
Yeah. They cared then.
- [88:50]
C
Yeah.
- [88:52]
B
But that's mean.
- [88:53]
C
Everyone's journey, which is what's cool about life, is that we don't. I don't think, I mean, I don't think you even said this in the standpoint of like your journey has been, you know, following your bliss, looking at opportunities. Work. Work your butt off. Right. And seeing where kind of things go and you know, hopefully using, you know, I said that we're discernment as well. Like we don't know what choices are going to come our way unless we're Willing to take risk and chances. You said that about shows and I probably would think that about your career as well. Right. So what advice would you give somebody? You have this. You do, you see. So I'm sorry, I forgot his name. The, your wheelhouse. Wheelhouse owner, Brent Rent. So he has that nonprofit that talks about getting people into television. Right. So if you're to get somebody that wants to get into this career, you give them one piece of advice. What would you say to them? Obviously, because you have production side behind the camera and you have in front of the camera.
- [89:42]
B
But, but I still think if you're coming in at the entry level, take any job, do anything work.
- [89:47]
A
You know the old, old school mentality, baby.
- [89:50]
C
Yeah.
- [89:51]
B
But also, first one there, last one out kind of thing. Not, I mean, sometimes literally, but just like be that person who'd never say that's not my job.
- [89:58]
A
I think that's a given. But like that nowadays things are very different.
- [90:02]
B
Yeah. And I mean, but it's not my job. It's all about results. So like whether you're a production assistant on a set. Right. And you know, what else do you need? What else do you need? Can I carry that? Or you're, you know, an assistant at a. More of a corporate side. You know, just, I mean, but, but anything to get your foot in the door. Even if it's not again, like goals don't. I mean, or, you know, it doesn't go in a straight line. So even if you want to be on the corporate side, take a production job that'll help you on the corporate side.
- [90:30]
C
Don't give up. Right. I mean, that's the thing is it's, I mean, I look at that even on the.
- [90:33]
B
At what point. Well, at what point do you give up?
- [90:36]
C
Because I mean, I guess if you're, if you're, if you're just, you know, it's 10 years and you're still in the entry level. It's probably, the writing is probably on the wall. It's probably not necessarily the right career field for you, but there's people on, you know, content creators, for example, they want instant. Yeah. They think that they see somebody just rocket ship. But they're looking at. They have no, like you're not looking at the videos these people been posting for six years that had like four people watching them and that constant figuring.
- [91:03]
A
Out they're a little different now you can go viral. Super.
- [91:05]
C
You can.
- [91:06]
B
But that's. You still plan for that.
- [91:08]
C
You can't plan. But that's the thing is you just. You just got to keep.
- [91:11]
B
Consistency, resilience, like, keep going. Patience.
- [91:14]
C
And that's. Or. And also not, you know, like, again, it's the desire of what behind is. Like, what are you doing it for? If you're doing it, become famous. I don't think that's the right goal. Like, do it to do something of value, to create something that people would want. And probably the same thing on the production side. Like, what are you doing it for?
- [91:28]
A
Well, we have to move on to. We're gonna ask James. Oh, this is gone over an hour 30. So we're gonna do.
- [91:34]
C
This is a very important section we're gonna do. It's really important.
- [91:37]
A
We have a little segment that we end each episode with called the Jar of Weird Words.
- [91:41]
B
I was like, maybe she'll skip.
- [91:42]
C
No, no, this is. This is. This is arguably why people stay on for an hour, 30 minutes.
- [91:48]
A
So you asked. All right.
- [91:50]
C
These are. Okay. We're doing number ones. Okay.
- [91:52]
A
Have her pick a number. Jane, pick a number between 1 and 10.
- [91:55]
B
7.
- [91:57]
C
Okay.
- [91:57]
A
I always choose 7. If it's not good, pick a different number. She doesn't know which one it is. I'm just kidding.
- [92:07]
C
Okay. I'm gonna read this as is, and I might reword it. Okay. It says, if you were a contestant on a reality show, which one would you dominate? So which reality show would you dominate if you had to be a contestant in any reality show?
- [92:20]
A
You don't have one.
- [92:21]
C
You don't have one.
- [92:22]
A
I'm trying to think. I don't.
- [92:27]
B
I don't.
- [92:27]
A
I don't either. That's one.
- [92:29]
C
Look, I'm not going to get into. Like. You would. You would crush it at the Apprentice because your. Your boss. You'd have crushed it. You'd have done great on that one. I'll answer that one for. I'll ask you one more. Okay. What is the most embarrassing song you know every word to. And you have to sing it.
- [92:48]
A
No, I want to sing it.
- [92:50]
B
I mean, really embarrassing. I don't know if people even know this song. What is it Killing me Softly.
- [92:57]
A
Yes.
- [92:57]
C
I didn't know that song.
- [92:59]
B
My son wouldn't know it.
- [93:00]
A
Oh, I. I knew that.
- [93:02]
C
Which version?
- [93:03]
B
Roberta Flack. Yeah.
- [93:06]
C
She's thinking of the Lauren Hill version.
- [93:08]
B
Yes. Okay. I forgot that that has actually been so it revitalized. But I'm talking.
- [93:12]
C
I had the original.
- [93:14]
B
People don't even know what that is.
- [93:16]
A
Yeah, I actually don't know what this is. Cassette.
- [93:18]
C
Tiny. Tiny record.
- [93:19]
B
Tiny record. We explained it to my son the other Day, like so you would have an album and have a bunch of songs on side. A bunch of songs inside B. And that it would take one of the one that they wanted to make into the pop hit and put it on at one song on a record.
- [93:34]
C
So A side, B side.
- [93:35]
B
A side, B side. I think wouldn't that be.
- [93:37]
C
Remember the little adapter?
- [93:40]
B
Like, it's like a donut.
- [93:41]
C
The donut. Put it on the adapter there.
- [93:43]
B
Yeah. Anyway, we don't have to go down that rabbit hole, but. But I mean, I learned. So I got the words. And again, pre Internet, like by just playing it over and writing it down. So that's.
- [93:51]
A
Yeah, she answered that quickly. I know a lot of songs, so I don't even.
- [93:56]
C
Well, you know songs. You don't know why. You know the words of the songs and you're saying you're like, I don't know why I'm singing this song from.
- [94:02]
A
I'll turn on the Most vulgar.
- [94:06]
C
Early.
- [94:06]
A
2000S hip hop or rap. And it's like every explicit lyric and I'm like, I look at Mike and my mouth is moving. I'm like, genuinely don't know how I know the lyrics to the song. It's just like implanted. Isn't that weird?
- [94:19]
B
You do believe in aliens.
- [94:21]
C
It's. It, it's. It's interesting.
- [94:23]
A
Alien injected.
- [94:24]
C
It's conscious unconscious. That's like, where is it feeding? Is our brain just tapping into a whole nother opportunity? Is there a museum that creates creative opportunities? Like, where do these ideas come from? There's a whole. There's a whole aspect. Where does it come from? Is it. Is it spiritual? Is it internal? I don't know. See, I can ask. I can.
- [94:41]
A
Well, on that note, pull one question.
- [94:43]
C
Have her ask you one. Just pull one random one from that jar.
- [94:45]
B
Ask Jen.
- [94:45]
C
Ask Jen. Yeah.
- [94:48]
B
Would you get each other's boogers out if they couldn't?
- [94:51]
C
Yes.
- [94:51]
A
100. I have to dig it.
- [94:52]
C
It's easy all the time. I do that.
- [94:54]
B
All right.
- [94:54]
C
I do that for sure enough. I do that.
- [94:57]
A
Out of your nose. Come on.
- [94:59]
B
I'm good. I'm good. Thanks.
- [95:00]
C
We're. We're booger people.
- [95:02]
B
Okay, fair enough.
- [95:04]
A
Jane, thank you so much for coming today.
- [95:06]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [95:07]
A
Was also goes down in history for the first interview, but also the longest episode we've ever had. So thank you for doing this. I really, really appreciated it and it's been awesome making TV with you back in the day and likewise TV in the future.
- [95:22]
C
Look, I'm excited about seeing this scripted thing come to reality. Like this is my personal thing that anything comes from this. I'm gonna.
- [95:28]
A
Me too.
- [95:29]
B
Start with the title.
- [95:30]
A
Yeah, well, I'll get to you.
- [95:31]
C
Well, that's what it's called. It's called the title.
- [95:35]
B
The title meeting.
- [95:36]
C
That's it. That's the name of the. The show.
- [95:38]
A
That's awesome. Thank you guys so much for watching to Ms. Jane Latman. As always, please subscribe. If you want to leave us an awesome 5 star rating, we'll take it. If you want to leave a one star rating, maybe go to the bathroom or get busy because we don't want it. But thank you so much and take.
- [95:55]
C
A look at, take a look at all Twist productions. There's so many great things coming. Honestly, really, you guys are putting great content on there and thank you and again, really appreciate you doing. Thank you for letting me interject my randomness into this cuz I. I don't know if I hope I added value.
- [96:10]
A
You so did. And with that, thank you for listening. Bye guys.