Ep. 209: Family Ties

Summary

You, Me & Mike – Episode 209: "Family Ties"

Release Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Jenn and Mike Todryk
Podcast Network: Thirteen Media

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and humor-filled episode, Jenn and Mike Todryk dive deep into the complex world of extended family relationships, blending anecdotes from their own lives with practical advice. The couple explores topics such as navigating changing family roles, setting healthy boundaries, the dynamics of in-laws and blended families, forging family traditions, and fostering strong sibling bonds. With their signature banter, they illuminate the joys and challenges of family ties—offering perspectives shaped by very different upbringings.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Listener-Driven Family Topics

Timestamps: [00:27]–[01:33]

• The episode was inspired by numerous listener requests about struggles with extended family relationships.
• Jenn expresses initial uncertainty:
  “A lot of people struggle to have good relationships with extended family...” — Jenn, [00:38]

Topics They Planned to Cover:

• Navigating changes in family roles (marriage, kids, moving)
• Boundaries/expectations with parents and in-laws
• Family traditions and creating family culture
• Blended family dynamics
• Teaching kids about family

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2. Blended Family Pop Culture & Personal Context

Timestamps: [01:34]–[03:54]

• Lighthearted discussion of The Brady Bunch as an early model of blended families
• Mike jokes: “Is that like... like a smoothie?” — Mike, [01:39]
• Jenn shares that she comes from a blended family background

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3. Transitioning Roles: From Child to Parent

Timestamps: [03:55]–[13:40]

Navigating Boundaries and Shifting Identities

• Jenn describes her experience moving directly from being under her parents' care to marriage:
  “I pretty much went from being under my dad’s care to then meeting you and getting married... I was very well taken care of and I wasn’t like air quotes alone for a long time...” — Jenn, [06:06]
• Mike’s contrasting background: more independence after leaving home for the military at 17 and living in different states.
• Jenn admits early marriage lessons about not running to her parents with marital issues:
  “Well, you and my mom are stupid similar...she has your back on a lot of things. And I’m very lucky that I have parents that can put their love for me and their judgments to the side and kind of guide me with a healthy marriage in mind.” — Jenn, [07:30]
• Mike’s reflections on balancing parental input:
  “If my dad or mom were to say, ‘You’re doing... I don’t think you’re doing this right,’ you’re gonna feel a little hurt...but that’ll quickly get over because, again, am I doing my role as a husband and as a father?” — Mike, [11:52]

Gender & Birth Order Observations

• Jenn: “I’m a parent pleaser...I don’t want them upset with me. And I don’t know if that’s ever going to go away because I’m 37 and it still is what it is.” — Jenn, [11:11]
• Mike: “There’s something innately different between men and women when it comes to that…” — Mike, [13:40]

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4. Family Caregiving & Gender Roles

Timestamps: [13:40]–[18:18]

• Mike draws on his experience in healthcare, noting daughters and daughters-in-law were almost always the ones present for older parents after surgeries.
• Jenn’s observation: “I feel like we are natural nurturers and we will literally drop everything if we can to rush. Whereas men…are somewhat slower sometimes...” — Jenn, [15:04]
• Both express a strong desire for their own kids to stay close as they grow up.

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5. Navigating In-Laws and Blended Family Dynamics

Timestamps: [18:59]–[23:59]

• Mike speaks positively about his close relationship with Jenn’s parents, to whom he is only 12 years apart in age:
  “I actually genuinely do enjoy my relationship with your parents... I’m lucky.” — Mike, [19:18]
• Jenn also enjoys a good relationship with Mike’s mom, Sue, who loves to serve.
• Family proximity has allowed Mike’s dad, who was not around daily growing up, to build a relationship with their kids:
  “That’s one thing that’s been pretty awesome to see... despite not having him every day to live and grow up with. He is here and he is available...” — Mike, [27:54]

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6. Divorce, Co-Parenting, and Choosing Forgiveness

Timestamps: [28:05]–[37:10]

• Mike, from a divorced family, shares how his mom always encouraged a positive relationship with his dad: “She would not…she never, to me, when I was growing up, ever talked negative about [my dad].” — Mike, [35:21]
• Jenn credits her aunt for healthy co-parenting with her ex, describing it as rare and admirable.
• Mike’s stance:
  “If there’s hurt that you’ve had in the past, is that going to impact your ability for that person to have a relationship with your kids? …If that person is genuinely there trying, then give them the chance.” — Mike, [32:26]
• Both agree parents shouldn’t over-share divorce details with children, as it can rob them of a healthy relationship:
  “I don’t agree that they’re always ready for the truth...what you’re doing is you’re trying to get this child on...your side.” — Jenn, [34:07]

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7. Boundaries with Parents & In-Laws

Timestamps: [37:12]–[55:54]

• Jenn values communication over confrontation: “I don’t like conflict...but I never run from it...If there’s a problem, I’m not the one who’s gonna fake smile at you in public and feel good about that. I’d rather reach out and try to have a conversation about it...” — Jenn, [37:34]
• Navigating grandparent boundaries (e.g., sugar and discipline): “If anyone...this might be relevant to anyone married in, with in-laws whenever we have to have...that talk...Mike had that conversation [with his mom]. I did not take that on. I told Mike, that's your mom, she needs to hear it from you.” — Jenn, [41:47]
• They recommend each partner handle their own side of the family regarding difficult conversations.
• Healthy boundaries vs. overprotective withdrawal:
  “If you relive things over and over and over...without any intent to heal, it’ll only create more negative emotions...” — Mike, [55:42]

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8. Sibling Dynamics and Parenting Approaches

Timestamps: [46:02]–[52:47]

• Both reflect on growing up with different sibling dynamics—Jenn as the oldest with brothers, Mike as the youngest with sisters—then relate these lessons to how they're raising their kids.
• Jenn expresses hope and intentionality for her daughters to be close:
  “How do I encourage them? And I'm just emulating what my parents did because we're all very close...No matter the gender, your siblings are your people. They are your family...” — Jenn, [51:32]

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9. Creating and Maintaining Family Traditions

Timestamps: [52:47]–[70:07]

• Strong emphasis on choosing and establishing family traditions (e.g., celebrating Christmas at home rather than traveling).
• Mike shares how they drew a boundary:
  “I just said...this is what we’re doing...to create our own traditions. You’re welcome to be a part of it...But Christmas morning, we will wake up in our house.” — Mike, [66:22]
• They describe how their Christmases now involve hosting both sides of the family, sometimes multiple celebrations, and how they've delegated/catered to ease stress.

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10. Handling Guilt, Saying No, and Embracing Family Imperfections

Timestamps: [59:49]–[61:59]; [63:04]–[72:29]

• Jenn feels comfortable declining family requests, largely because her parents “do not pressure me and make me feel bad for saying no.”
• Mike reminds listeners: “Are you doing the right thing for your family?...If it’s not selfish, you’re doing the right things.”
• Both explain that family is “where they are”—friction is inevitable but can be worked through with love, effort, and forgiveness.
• Jenn: “I think it’s much easier to be mad and pick out things you don’t like about family rather than work on it. It’s way easier to just...push people away.” — Jenn, [54:10]
• Mike underscores the vital role of forgiveness:
  “Without forgiveness, you can’t ever heal.” — Mike, [57:07]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You have somebody who loves you no matter what and at the same time is going to give you truth. And that's where you have an advantage.” — Mike, [09:19]
• “If something is broken or someone is hurting, women are like, I’m going, I’m gonna be there...can't catch me not at the bedside.” — Jenn, [16:22]
• “You can’t change anyone...People can change, but [only] on their own.” — Mike, [31:25]
• “I hope our family never gets [to the point we're not speaking].” — Mike, [54:10]
• “Family is where they are. You can have a chosen family. But our family is where they are.” — Mike, [53:07]

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Structure and Tone

• The episode blends humor, transparency, and a non-judgmental tone—marked by playful teasing and honest admissions of both past mistakes and lessons learned.
• The hosts freely sidebar into pop culture, memories, and examples, illustrating their points with relatable storytelling.
• The mood is conversational, warm, and supportive, emphasizing that every family is unique but the path to healthy relationships is paved with communication, boundaries, flexibility, and forgiveness.

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Summary Table of Timestamps for Key Segments

| Start Time | Key Segment | |----------------|------------------------------------------| | 00:27 | Episode theme & listener questions | | 01:34 | Blended family & The Brady Bunch | | 03:55 | Child-to-parent role transitions | | 13:40 | Gender & family caregiving | | 18:59 | In-laws & blended family dynamics | | 28:05 | Divorce, co-parenting, forgiveness | | 37:12 | Boundaries, communication, conflict | | 46:02 | Sibling dynamics & parenting | | 52:47 | Family culture & traditions | | 59:49 | Handling guilt & saying no | | 66:22 | Creating own holiday traditions | | 70:07 | Hosting & holiday logistics |

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Concluding Advice

• Don’t be afraid to set boundaries and communicate respectfully.
• Handle family legacies and differences with grace and understanding.
• Stay flexible—what works for one family may not work for another.
• Forgive where you can, and create positive traditions for the next generation.
• Above all: “Have fun with your families. Love on them...That’s the whole point of it.” — Mike, [73:41]

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This summary covers all core topics, memorable moments, and advice from Jenn and Mike’s lively and revealing conversation on navigating family ties.

Transcript

[A]

Here we are, back again, back again.

[B]

Cue the lights.

[A]

Mike is back. Jen's back.

[B]

I'm also back.

[A]

Yeah, we're getting an interesting one today. Right.

[B]

I was about to say, guess what?

[A]

What? So chicken butt.

[B]

And a few episodes back, you've been hanging out with Viv too much. A few episodes back, we said we were going to talk about adult friendships, adult relationships, and then extended family on the next one. And then we just never talked about the extended family.

[A]

We did not do that.

[B]

So we're gonna do.

[A]

We are gonna do now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm excited. These are good ones. Yeah. There's a ton of questions about this.

[B]

I'm like, I hope we have enough to say on this topic.

[A]

Lord, we could talk hours about family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Family.

[B]

You know, that's true. I guess I just don't know because this was a very recommended or suggested topic for us to talk about, but I'm not quite sure exactly what everyone want to talk about. I think what I got from, like, DMS and in the suggestion box where that a lot of people struggle to have good relationships with extended family, and so we'll just kind of have to see.

[A]

I think it was just that. I mean, there's a lot of people. Yeah, sure, there are people that have situations that. But there's also just navigating changes when it comes to life. And it comes to marriage, kids, development phases.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, family, maybe in different states, family that lives next door. Everyone has a different dynamic with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What their. Who and what their family are. Right.

[B]

No, that's true. So we can talk about quite a few things. We've got, like, roles as parents, creating our own culture, having boundaries and expectations with families, how we do traditions, how we teach our kids about families.

[A]

Tradition.

[B]

Blended. Blended families and whatnot. We can't really add.

[A]

It's a blended family.

[B]

You're kidding.

[A]

Is that like. Like a smoothie?

[B]

Okay. No, it's a hot take. Maybe we should take that out.

[A]

I'm just kidding. I came from a blended family.

[B]

Kind of Brady Bunch blended family.

[A]

They worked it out.

[B]

The Brady Bunch.

[A]

Yeah, that's. They did.

[B]

They were successful in that. The Brady.

[A]

I mean, you know. Yeah, that's a. Clearly. Whatever happened. How did they, like. Is there a backstory to that, or did they just all start in the home together?

[B]

Did you not watch the introduction till this one day when this lady met this fellow?

[A]

Yeah, I know, but they met. What happened before? Like, what's the.

[B]

They obviously had other marriages and had children.

[A]

There needs to be a reboot. Of what happened before. And it's all drama. I mean, something happened because they never even talk about their prior life because they.

[B]

I think they were trying to be like progressive and being like, people are getting divorced.

[A]

None of the kids have issues for the divorce or just moving in with the new family. It's all good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, unless actually I didn't watch the show, so maybe they did have that. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just talking stupid.

[B]

No, I. They didn't have it before. It literally was just a happy song at the intro.

[A]

Like real life. Because that's real life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is never drama issues.

[B]

You know what I think happened? I think they. I'm pretty sure I remember an episode. Didn't they both get written in as like the spouses are dead, they died.

[A]

Let's even.

[B]

Because they never talk about the mom or the dad. The other one. There's no co parenting. There's no. Got to drop the kids off at their dads. There's no child, right? Child.

[A]

Yeah, that would make sense.

[B]

Support. What's it called?

[A]

Support.

[B]

No, child support. Child support. There's not talk about it being late.

[A]

Well, he was an architect. Right. So he. He had some dough. And that house was nice.

[B]

House was nice, right? It was a fun kitchen. I remember that.

[A]

Yeah. And they had. They had a. They had a maid.

[B]

Alice.

[A]

Alice. Alice the maid.

[B]

I mean, really doing some brain stretching.

[A]

Or was it a nanny? I mean, they had six kids. You gotta have some help.

[B]

She's an Annie.

[A]

Kids. That's a lot of kids.

[B]

Yeah. She's a nanny. Pretty sure.

[A]

Or. But she was always.

[B]

She's still alive, the actress.

[A]

Probably. Probably not. I'm gonna look anyway. Let's.

[B]

I'm gonna look it up.

[A]

So speaking of the Brady Bunch. Yeah. So one of the questions. Should I just go and jump right into it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All right. So one of the questions people ask is about shifting of roles. Right. So I guess this one specifically was related to more. When you become a parent, like if you. How do you navigate yourself from. With your parents or your in laws, you go from being a child.

[B]

She died in 2014. Alice.

[A]

Rest in peace.

[B]

I know. That's sad.

[A]

Always.

[B]

Continue.

[A]

Hey, look. Great legacy.

[B]

Died in San Antonio, Texas.

[A]

Well, there you go. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I'm back.

[B]

I'm back.

[A]

And now back to these.

[B]

Yes, now I'm back.

[A]

So the question was more related to about when. When you, you know, you're going from a child to get married. You now have a new family and then you Become the parent. And how do you sh. The, you know, navigate the shifting of roles from being the child or the. The spouse to being the parent?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I guess it's more about the.

[B]

Navigation and we haven't done that. So I don't have.

[A]

Yes, we have.

[B]

Going from a parent with an adult child. We don't have an adult.

[A]

That's not. I think it's more about internal. Like that.

[B]

What are you talking about? Yeah.

[A]

How do you. How. How does your role change from being someone's child to being a parent?

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I misheard you.

[A]

And learning. And then it's. And then it's also this learning to. How do you set boundaries with your parents while still respecting them? These are all related to the same thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then balancing. How do you balance being a. A daughter and a spouse and a parent all at once? So those are all related to the same thing. It's kind of bundled in those three questions. So I guess tackle the first one. How did your role change from being someone's child to being parent? Because I. You have an extra strong bond to your parents to the point where you know they could do no wrong.

[B]

That's not true.

[A]

100.

[B]

It's not true.

[A]

100 no.

[B]

I think that's evolved in the past.

[A]

Like, but I'm saying early on eight.

[B]

To 10 years, don't you think it's evolved?

[A]

We've been married 15 years.

[B]

Well, I was really young. I was in my young 20s.

[A]

Right, correct.

[B]

So I feel like it was still a very like not immature mindset. But you're still like, I'm fresh out of the house. Because even when you're in college, you're still under your parents watch. You're still talking to them constantly. They're still paying for your stuff.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're still like under your parents wing in. Or at least I was. That was my. And I was there first. So I also have. That also I think takes a major key in that I was the only girl. I only had brothers and I was the oldest child. So the first time for them to experience that. So I just think you met me, I was barely 21 and I think I was just still straight from again. Like I pretty much went from being under my dad's care to then meeting you and getting married and like switching to. With being cared for by you. So I was very lucky in that regard. I was very well taken care of and I wasn't like air quotes alone for a long time in that regard. But like, do you see what I'm saying? I wasn't like a 37 year old woman.

[A]

Like, well that's a unique perspective then. Yeah, because I think there, I mean there are probably some people out there that had those. You kind of went quickly from college to New York for an internship back here. Then you met me, right. I was older and already been married prior. So I had a different perspective on what, what are, you know, kind of the roles and where they would be. So I mean from your perspective, what, you know, what was that? Navigation? Because there were times and there, there was, I mean, I'll be honest, I think early on we did have a little one say conflict. That's not the right word but it was a navigation and like conversations, you know, like, okay, why are you going to parents with this right now? Like, this is us, this isn't, this isn't something you should be, you know, bringing to them, right?

[B]

No, and I don't think I did that a lot. It's just at the very beginning, if we would like, Mike and I would like have an argument, I might like call my mom and talk to my mom about it. And luckily my mom's very like stable, mentally stable to where most of the time she was like, jen, you need to talk to Mike. He's not in the wrong on that. And you know that my mom is, you know, you and my mom are stupid similar and she has your back on a lot of things. And I'm very lucky that I have parents that can put their love for me and their judgments to the side and kind of like guide me with a healthy marriage in mind. Right. Versus a parent who might be a little more immature and be like, that's only, I guess, only counseling me for my benefit. Does that make sense? They don't do that. They do it for our benefit.

[A]

So yes, yeah, we are lucky.

[B]

Luckily, my parents never like steered me wrong or like. But that only happened not often because I remember I would tell you I'd be like, well I talked to my mom and you'd be like not appropriate, like kindly. And I'd be like, it's not. And I just didn't know I was so young. And then I really quickly, I want to say that was only like the first few months of marriage, like I really quick locked in on.

[A]

Well, you, you've always used your mom. Fortunately as she is a good counselor in a standpoint of bringing a level head to the situation. You are blessed to have her as someone that's not like, well, you Know, over siding with you and. Or over siding with me. I think she sits in like you said. What you just said is that they take the round of the route of doing what's best for us. And that's a great person to have in your life. And I think hopefully everyone has somebody like that in their life and you don't. That's a. It's a hard thing not to have because.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You have somebody who loves you no matter what.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And at the same time is going to give you truth. And that's where you have an advantage. Because we've talked about this in the prior episodes about when you were struggling after Berkeley about like what to do and you were some jealousy and there were some things that you're going through that you had to work through independent of me.

[B]

Jealousy is. I think it's resentment, but those are neither here there.

[A]

Okay. I mean I think that's. They think they're tied maybe. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think it's like there's kind of combine into it and so whether. Whether it was representing or jealousy, it was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It wasn't the standpoint of like you were a bad mom at any point, but your mom gave you reflection and then look what's occurred because of good guidance from her.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

No, and also encourage, you know, like that There's a lot of. That came where my perspective coming into this relationship was. I was older. I was 35. 37.

[B]

34.

[A]

34. We got married. 35.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. @ least. Yeah. Anyway, but with that being said, I'd already been in the military, had a. Had one career left that was in corporate America and I lived in a different state than my parents and my family, so.

[B]

And you're a boy.

[A]

Well, yeah, I left it. I really left at 17 when I went to West Point. And then I was, you know, basic training at 17. I turned 18 at basic training or beast we called it. So my life had left states at that time. So I had already left, I guess the. The safety net of my parents a long time ago. And I didn't necess want or felt that I needed them at that point.

[B]

Which is probably also. I'm going to send that back.

[A]

But also at the same time that's not. I don't know if that arms link to my family is appropriate as well. Right. Like there's a standpoint of like the balance that you need to have to bring into. It's like I'm going to do this on my own because I do think everyone needs I think people in their.

[B]

Life, I think it's person. I really do think it's personality driven. Like, I look at my mom, my mom, my mom graduated high school and she went to a college across the country, went from Ohio to Texas and that's what she wanted to do and she loved it. I could never do that. So I think it's very personality driven too where like I have always been, I'm sure there's like a term for it, but I'm a parent pleaser. Like, I want my parents to be proud of me and happy with me and even though I do have very strong opinions and I don't always agree with them as an adult, I still would think they know that I'm a parent pleaser. Like, if anything bugs me, I have to tell them about it and I have to resolve it and, and I don't want them upset with me. And I don't know if that's ever going to go away because I'm 37 and it still is what it is. And I don't know where you're like, I literally don't give a crap what my mom thinks about my parents.

[A]

I care.

[B]

You've said that. And I'm like, no, I would say I want that.

[A]

Let me qualify that. I, I don't care. But I do care, right. If, if my dad or mom were to say, you're doing, you know, I don't think you're doing this right. You're going to feel a little hurt by that a little bit. But that, that'll quickly get over because again, and I said this even in the prior podcast, I look at it like, are you, am I, am I, am I doing my role and responsibility as a husband to you? And am I doing what I believe is best for my kids? And of course, I don't know, everything is, you know, this is the first time to be parents and we have a 12 year old, you know, down to a 6 year old and, and that's, it's, you know, we're still navigating new phases of life, a teenage and things like that. And are we probably gonna make some mistakes? Sure. But we, to do through love and through the best effort we can. Yeah. So I look at that as my perspective. Am I doing what I believe is best in that moment without selfishness? And then, then if I can say yes, then it's like, hey, you can have your opinions, you can judge me what it is. But you know what, it really doesn't matter because I also do look at that as biblical is that a man is meant to leave their house and is meant to become their own patriarch of the family. And that is a role that I've taken on with this is that I really. Not patriarch. It sounds. That's not really the right word I'm looking for. But. But I do believe it's my responsibility as a father to lead as a father.

[B]

Well, I think so. My brothers would say the same thing. They're like, you know, why would you care what they think? Like nicely. And I'm like, because they're my parents. Like he is psycho. And so I don't know if that's a first. You can't stereotype every gender in every role. Everyone's different. But I don't know if it's maybe a firstborn thing or like only girl thing. I don't. I'm. Maybe women are more like nurturing and naturally tender like and they want approval from their mom and their dad. I don't know. But I'm just saying you sound just like.

[A]

And I do think there's something in innately different between men and women when it comes to that because. And I've told you the story. I spent 17 years in the medical field and thousands of surgeries I went through in the cardiac space where we would go in and post operative and go talk to the patient's family. And I worked at pacemakers, defibrillators. People don't know but it was. I would go afterwards and often talk to the family about, you know, what to expect with it, how to manage it, what the follow ups were in all, you know, because we were very involved despite it being industry is very involved in patients lives through that. I probably can count on one hand, one hand that there was a son there with their, with their mom.

[B]

That's devastating. Every boy mom is crushed right now.

[A]

With a dad. Sorry, with a dad. With a dad, not a mom. It was with the dads. It was always, always the daughters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also the daughter in laws more than. More than the sons.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

I mean I'm telling you one hand I could probably count on there now. The sons will be there often the day afterwards they would check in. It wasn't like it was this completely independent thing. But with that being said and it was, it was a women rush and it was. And it wasn't, you know, we weren't doing triple bypass type surgeries. These things were called elective procedures for the most part. So with that being said, it was still. Yeah, yeah. It's still. It was just. It was from a subset of 17 years in it where it was like, the vast majority of people that are there still connected to the family. Were the daughters or even the daughter in laws more than. More than the sons?

[B]

I think that makes sense. Like, if you think about, like. And again, we're very much vastly stereotyping. We obviously, everyone is different, and we can't say everyone's like this, but for the sake of stereotyping, like, when they get a call, someone's in the hospital, it's like the woman is like, bye. And like, doesn't think of anything. And they're like, I'm leaving work. I'm doing. Like. I feel like they're more. And the men are like, okay, I'm in the middle of my work day. I'll be there. I feel like the women is like, as women, we are natural nurturers and we will literally drop everything if we can to rush. Whereas men, y' all are somewhat slower sometimes. Does that make sense? Like, nurturing?

[A]

No, that's not. No. Because I would look at it as a perspective of. Of all that. Like, okay, who's going to take care of all the other situations going, like, again, because I have. And again, this is. This is my perspective. Right? We have our kids. We have our house. We have our. Our house is where to say our. You. There's the companies that we have. There's a lot of things that are in place right now. If it's an emergency procedure, if something happened, of course I'm gonna go fly out to Wisconsin with my mom, right? When I wouldn't even question it. I'd be like, jen, I gotta go. Right? I mean, that wouldn't even be a question. And you would encourage that as well?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But if it's like, hey, you know, I got a routine procedure that needed to get done. And I'd be like, okay, Jackie, you probably that one of my. Talk to one of my sisters, right? That are there. I'd be like, okay, it's a routine procedure.

[B]

But that's my point. A woman will be like, heck, no, it's me in that room. Like, women are quick to nurture. I think that's God ordained. God ordained, God given, same thing, whatever. And I don't know, I just feel like maybe that's something biological there to where. Like, if something is broken or someone is hurting, women are like, I'm going, I'm gonna be there, but I'm not. Can't catch me. Not at the bedside. Like, whereas Men are like, are you good? She's got people.

[A]

Well, that's. That's what. You know, I. Anytime a somebody that I know has. Has a daughter, I'm like, it's awesome. They're going to have somebody take care of you when you're older.

[B]

See, that's what I'm saying. That's my point. That's my point.

[A]

But I will say this with our kids anyway, you. You're talking about this moving away and I moved away. Your mom moved away.

[B]

Yes. I would never move away.

[A]

Really hope our kids don't move away.

[B]

I will encourage them not to.

[A]

I. Well, I mean, it's okay to like, go to college. Like, you know, hey, net. Explore when you're older. Find your. Find your. Find your ways.

[B]

What if they find a partner up? Like if they're going up somewhere up north. What if they find a partner there and then they're stuck for me, away from me.

[A]

I mean, I got stuck with you in Texas. Right.

[B]

I think there's another word for that. You got lucky.

[A]

I got lucky. Lucky to be Texas. He haul.

[B]

No, I. I think. I think it's just different personalities. So I guess.

[A]

But I do want our kids to stay close.

[B]

I do want our kids to stay close. I just think it's very.

[A]

Or we'll just move by them. They're not going to be able to escape us. I'm going to make sure that.

[B]

Yes. I'm glad you're saying that because five years ago I was like, you do understand, like, if Berkeley or. I. I think Vaughn again, maybe this is like gender roles and I'm stereotyping, but I see Vaughn, maybe he goes further and he has a family, but, like, the girls will need help with their children. And I want to be around them and available and I want to be that grandma. And I want to be integrated into their everyday fan. Not everyday life, but like their weekly life. And you were like, we're getting a condo up in Montana. And I'm like, hold on. But what if our kids aren't in Montana?

[A]

No, I was probably joking. You said that. Yeah.

[B]

You wanted to, like, travel. And when my parents, like, got the condo and went downtown, you're like, I want to do that. And I'm like, can't catch me doing that. We're not doing that.

[A]

We're getting an Airstream.

[B]

Okay. I do that. As long as we could come back.

[A]

I guess we're going to live in it like Haley did for like five minutes in hers.

[B]

I forgot about that. That was not Five minutes. Like a year.

[A]

It was a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anytime there was a tornado warning, like, Haley, why don't you come over and hide in the closet?

[B]

Get in the closet with us.

[A]

So as a little side, Haley's Jen's assistant, and she's helping with the podcast over here.

[B]

So it's so true. She would come get in the closet.

[A]

She was going to live in a little. The little home craze that worked for. I give you credit, though, Haley. Anyway, with.

[B]

With.

[A]

With that being said, I do think you got to figure out and navigate the roles you have. I've been very blessed and lucky to have in laws that are. You know, I went to high school, John, your dad. So it was easy.

[B]

It's a joke that is like the running joke because they're close in age.

[A]

We're 12 years apart. John and I are 12 years apart. Jen and I are 12 hours apart.

[B]

Yeah. So he's, like, right in the middle.

[A]

But it does create a unique dynamic. At standpoint. I actually genuinely do enjoy my relationship with their parents. I think they're very supportive. Your dad's funny. He's a. He's. He's fun to be around, and he's who he is, and, you know, he's. So I'm lucky to have a relationship, a dynamic, because there are people out there, and I know people personally that do not have a good.

[B]

Oh, I know a ton.

[A]

So what do you like? Like, although, like. And you get along with my parents as well?

[B]

Well, I was gonna say that, but you were starting on another tangent.

[A]

Well, I wanted to go with that. I'm saying is like Sam, but would.

[B]

That be get along with your family? Great. Sue. I love sue so much. And I know that if. I know that if she lived close to us, she would be at our door every day, checking in. You mean anything?

[A]

Like doing laundry?

[B]

Tell me. Take the kids. Do you want me to cook? I know she would be.

[A]

My mom's love language is service.

[B]

She's just. She gets home from work, and she's just looking to serve.

[A]

And to the point where she'll serve my kids ice cream in bed when we tell them not to.

[B]

That's the truth. So we had to have some conversations.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

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[A]

So these are two things we have. So there's, there's, there are other questions and this goes, it's a good, this is a good I guess transition.

[B]

It's not because you have your dad and Kathy and they live close to us and I, well I want to.

[A]

Let'S pin this because we talk about boundaries. We're going to talk boundaries of parents and then we're going to talk about if you, I mean I guess our perspective what we do if hypothetically in.

[B]

Law we didn't get along good with boundaries.

[A]

So but anyway continue on with my parent with I guess the other because I don't want to cut them out.

[B]

No, you don't. And so with your family, we kind of have a different dynamic than my family, and we had to talk about divorce and things a lot quicker because Mike comes from a divorced. Divorced parents, divorced family, divorced parents. And his dad and stepmom live very close, which is an amazing thing. And so while sue lives up in Wisconsin with Don. And. Yeah, so we have. I have a great relationship with. I feel like with everybody, everyone's easy. And, yeah, I hope I'm easy along.

[A]

With, you know, for a little, I guess, transparency. I don't know what the right word of that is. My dad didn't live in the same city with me when I was growing up, so I had always had a good relationship with my dad as much as I could, but he wasn't.

[B]

City or state?

[A]

Both.

[B]

I was about to say.

[A]

Yeah, he lived in two. He lived in. He was in Minnesota, and I was in Wisconsin. And then when I was high school, he was in Illinois, close enough to drive us about an hour away from driving. So it was like, at the end. I got seen more in high school. Okay. Than I did earlier. But my stepmom was a flight attendant, so was able to. We were able to go a lot and travel a lot, despite not, you know, we were very middle. Middle, lower class from a stamp on the income. So, you know, we didn't go vacations. I never went out of state until I was in high school. On a, you know, school trip that I went on. That was. That was just the means that we had growing up. Never felt that I was wanting. I felt I was loved and everything. So that's things I, you know, credit my mom and my dad and everyone as best as they could. They took care of us. And I really didn't feel like I was wanting for anything, despite not having a lot of excess ability. Right.

[B]

I wanted Abercrombie and fixed sweatshirts a lot. Yeah, that would be my want.

[A]

Yeah, I went.

[B]

I didn't get them. They were like 80 bucks a pop. But I really did want that.

[A]

I went to TJ Maxx. Yeah, it's where we got. I mean, I remember, like, oh, they got guests there. And there was a store called Chess King to all the 80s and 90s kids out there, if you remember Chess King, do a little, like. And subscribe, because it's awesome. It was literally all, like, Z. Cavarici, Jabot, all this stuff that mattered in high school. And that's when I had a job and I would actually buy my stuff.

[B]

I was just about to say, remember buying like Hollister and pacsun and American Eagle in high school? But that's because I had a job.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I would spend my money from. I started 15.

[A]

By the way, Z Cavory. Do you know what Z cavities are?

[B]

What?

[A]

Z Cavarici pants.

[B]

They need to come Ricci.

[A]

It's the one style that hasn't come back. They were like the super peg tight. They're really big, almost umbrella pants.

[B]

Like Hammer kinda.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. But they were like dress pants. MC Hammer was more like parachute pants where they're like. But yes, very much MC Hammer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's the one style that hasn't come back. Which also reason. What is up with style? Just cycling quicker now.

[B]

Oh, because of social media. It's like media.

[A]

It was skinny jeans. Now it's super baggy. Every kid's wearing the exact stuff I wore in high school, which is big sweatshirts and big pants. And then literally I think in six months it's gonna go back to skinny jeans again.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

If you're really asking me, it's not even like a. I think it's I hard stance. No, social media is what's doing it. Because of influencers and content creators. You always have to be first and be.

[A]

I'm going to change my style.

[B]

So they change design styles change a lot quicker now clothing because you have to be the one that finds the next thing and so it naturally evolves much quicker. That's why. Have you noticed like every year something is hard in and hard out from last year to where like things would last like 10 years. Like skinny jeans was like a 10 year, 15 year run and now it's like hard out the last year and a half. And then now people are like bring back the skinny jean. And now they're trying to advocate and they want to be the influencer that's like, hey, let's bring out our skinny jeans again. I'm telling you, it's like whiplash. Because everybody's trying to be the trendy one first.

[A]

You know what I've seen some dudes at the gym wearing, now they're guys wearing it. Like our bell bottom sweatpants. Swear. Yes. Like in style.

[B]

If I like a man like bell.

[A]

Bottom pants, but like bell bottom to sweatpants. So it's like athleisure bell bottoms blinged out. Like for real. Not blinged out, like shiny. But I'm saying like wearing, wearing Rolexes and stuff. So it's like it's. It's a style. Anyway, we got off topic.

[B]

You're not gonna wear the bell bottom pants though, right? Honey, your legs are too short. It'll shorten you. Don't do it. I mean, don't do it. I mean, don't do it.

[A]

You know what the night best part is? I can wear platform shoes with them. You'll never know.

[B]

Oh, we'll know. We'll see it.

[A]

Six, two.

[B]

Mike walking around, this was a heck of a platform shoe. They're like nine inches. Yeah.

[A]

You would. No one know. No one would notice. Nobody would notice. It's great, Mike. Anyway, it's going back to my. My quick childhood sidebar. They lived in different states and my dad moved here after my brother moved here as well.

[B]

So my brother recently, like 10 years ago then?

[A]

Yeah, within the last 10 years.

[B]

13.

[A]

Yeah. So they've been, they've been down here and it's created an opportunity for. For me to develop a relationship with him that I didn't have because of proximity. And even more, which is cool, is that it's allowed him to have a relationship with my kids. Right. And that's one thing that's been pretty awesome to see is like, you know, despite not having him every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To live and grow up with. He is here and he is available. And it is something that fortunately, you know, my heart wasn't hardened through. Through past circumstances of not having him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know people do struggle, which is a choice. I believe it is a choice. Yeah.

[B]

And again, you're choosing to do that.

[A]

It all depends on the level, I guess, of trauma, if you have abuse and things like that. Which it wasn't the case. It was, it was more just divorce and not there separation.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

So there are circumstances that are very different that people have to go through different healing processes with. But like, look, I was young enough. I was three when they got divorced. And it was just kind of the way it was. And that's the way I looked at it. And that's what I knew. And do I wish things were different? Berkeley literally asked me yesterday about that. She was like, she asked just about like, do you wish your dad and mom stayed together? I'm like, well, of course I do do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, but, but that's not, that's not what happened. And I go, you know, you know, grandpa Mike's happily married to grand grandma Kathy and they got two great kids. I got my brothers because of it. I said, so there's things in circumstances that like are where they are because of what occurred. And I can't say that it was. And I go, but, yeah, I mean, do I wish I had moments with the Course I do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I go, but the one thing is, is, you know, I don't know if she just thinks about it, but.

[B]

Well, a lot of people would not answer that way. Mike, that was a really good answer. You keep it positive and it's not like shiny happy fakeness. No, I think you mean the truth in it, which is it's great that we have a relationship now. Why would I choose to not have a relationship based off of the childhood stuff?

[A]

But.

[B]

But, Mike, I think that's rare. I think a lot of people do hold on to that, and it really does affect them until their parent dies and then they're have huge remorse and regret.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I just want to commend you. I've never been through that. I would hope I would also be like that, but I also know my heart and I'm like, you know, if one of my parents messed up right now and made a horrible choice and was wrong to the other, I would have a hard time. I would lay into them. I'd be like, what are you doing? Like, I would have a hard time. So you are a peacekeeper in that.

[A]

But on the flip side, and I didn't say this Berkeley, like, well, they could have stayed together. It could have been awful. Right. Who knows? I could have been around fighting. I could. Like, there are circumstances that you really don't know what could occur to like you. You know, we have. We paint this picture of like, we only have this hindsight is 2020 viewpoint things. Right. We look back at like, oh, they wish my parents had done this different. I wish they would have done that. Well, it. It didn't. Like, where we are is where we are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that's my perspective things is if you look back and wish things were different, you're getting robbed of life. You kind are. Because you're not looking forward.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What did it. What did I say in the last podcast? You know, presence a gift.

[B]

Couldn't tell you. Oh, presents a gift. Pun intended.

[A]

The present is a gift. And it is.

[B]

Present is a gift. No, I. But I.

[A]

And the future is what we. What, you know, we always strive for it. But the point is the past is. Is done. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my. The way I have to look at it is the past as it is. It's. It's almost the point where it's developed us and created part of who we are. Goods and Bads. Right.

[B]

But.

[A]

But we can't wish things to be different. No, you can wish, but that's not gonna help. That can help anything. And that's even from.

[B]

Get that manifesting out of here.

[A]

It really. It needs even from a standpoint of. Of relationships you have with people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If a person is a very. People don't change much. I think this really. I think the data even says, like, about 18 to 21 years old. The kind of. The character of that person is pretty defined on who they are.

[B]

At what age.

[A]

About 18 to 21 years old.

[B]

I feel like you're an idiot. At 18 and 20 years.

[A]

You are.

[B]

So I hope that you are.

[A]

No, but I'm saying.

[B]

But I think you mean, like how you core.

[A]

The core character of who you are.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Doesn't change much past that time. I think it's around 21 years old. And you can change, but that person can only change on your own. And that's another thing people do with codependencies. And I can change that person. That's not real. You can't change anyone. My opinion. People can change.

[B]

Mike's done it. You can listen to him, guys.

[A]

You can be. You can be. You can be an influence on people. You can be a positive place of. Of understanding in a safe spot for them to be able to communicate. But your ability to, like, will them or pray them into changing. You pray for them, but it's through them and God. That's the two places that really the real change occurs. So point is, this is if somebody is in there and there's small things that bother you, you have a big, you know, hurt from the past, a relationship. But if you can move on. And where I looked at this is going back to what the whole point of this conversation is, because we're talking about our family and then our relationships. If there's hurt that you've had in the past, is that going to impact your ability for that person to have a relationship with your kids? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if that person is genuinely there trying, then give them the chance. Let them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can still be, you know, give a little gardenness again, abuse and things like that. Totally different. But if it's about, you know.

[B]

Well, I think we've both seen it in various people we know where. Whether it's a hurt family member or a parent or it's a dad, you know, an ex, and they got divorced. You telling your kids what you think is the truth and being transparent, I don't agree with that. I don't Agree that they're always ready for the truth. And what you're doing is you're really. What you just said you're robbing that child of happy.

[A]

Oh, you mean like you're telling them all the details?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, in the past, in my, my dad, my mom did. Yes. Or whoever you're saying, like if you over share sometimes it'll change the perspective. I actually agree with that.

[B]

I don't. I, I understand we're kind of in a phase of like gentle parenting and like tell them everything and I think that's really hurtful because a child isn't as developed and can't understand real world things until a certain age. I even think, just my opinion, if something did happen to say something had happened to us and we divorced and say Berkeley is talking to me as a 18 to 20 year old and she's like, what really happened? I mean I and say you did something horrible and there's infidelity or something. I think I would even tread lightly on that and be like, you know, there were some hurt things and I don't know, I'm not there but I still wouldn't be like your dad freaking cheated on me. I just feel like it. What you're doing is you're trying to get this child on. Sometimes I feel like people try to get their kids on their side.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And all you're doing is like crushing that child to that relationship. Think about it. That's their dad. Like they don't want to know all that. Like that's their dad and they need to help their whole life now can they get over what you placed on them? And someone who I think did a really, really good job with that is my aunt. And oh yeah, for sure she has fostered only a great relationship with her ex and she has co parenting and oh, they co parented that. She said it took them a year to get it on right tracks, but they did it the whole time. And when I tell you that woman has a lot to be hurt and mad about. Not my story to tell, but I just have never seen anyone navigate it like she navigated it well.

[A]

I mean I can give my mom a lot of credit for that as well too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so one thing is, is that my mom always encouraged me.

[B]

I get like emotional talking about to.

[A]

Have, have a, have a good relationship with my dad. She would not, you know, like even at the point was in college and they were divorced. I mean, gosh, you know, when I was three, if I was 18 years old. So 15, 16 years later, she'd be like, it's your dad's birthday. Come, you know, tomorrow. Make sure you. Make sure you call him. Like, things that she would still remember to. To be like, there to encourage a relationship. She never, to me, when I was growing up, ever talked negative about.

[B]

I've never heard her say one single negative thing about your dad to this day.

[A]

And that, and that's the thing is. And look at my, you know, my dad's pretty open about the past and the mistakes he made. So it's not like I'm, you know, sharing anything that he wouldn't share on his own. And he's come through a lot of rehabilitation and, and growth and, and, you know, the salvation of Christ and a lot of things that he's been able to help other men through the struggles that he's dealt with to really create. Really, it is his ministry. Right. And with that, because he's, you know, God's used his pain to create growth and help for others as well. Right, right. But with that being said, that doesn't mean that it's like, as a son, I'. That's great. You know, it. It.

[B]

You have to choose to see that as. For sure.

[A]

But with that being said, it never in those formative developmental times I have. I wasn't being my mom wasn't pitting.

[B]

You were being subjected against.

[A]

To my dad. It wasn't this. This like me versus you. If you take my. If you're, if you're living with me, we're going to not be against your dad. And I. And I know people that have gotten divorced that, that put their kids in the middle and, and I would encourage people, if you're in that situation, I know you got to get out of that. Don't put your kids in the middle if the other person's doing it as well. That's a hard one because I don't know how to fix that situation. But it's definitely not a fair situation to be in if the kids are being put in the middle. Because you got two parents that have two different perspectives that, that both love the kids and sometimes they're doing things and what their thing is. Right. Because they're trying to do it out of love. And I'm going to protect myself and do it. It's hard. That's a hard situation. I haven't experienced it, so I can't really give anything.

[B]

Well, you have. You live. You grew up in it, right?

[A]

I did.

[B]

It's done correctly.

[A]

It was done correctly, but the Point is, is that you. If I'm saying how to. How to fix and navigate a situation, because there are people in that. Right.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I feel like I have no entitlement or right to speak on that topic.

[A]

But what you can change is be. You can be the place of change in the positive for your kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. That's the place that you can set the example. And this is where like, you know, wow, we got kind of off subject on this one, navigating that.

[B]

I think it's all family.

[A]

It is. But those are things from the past about how we grow and how we came into. So I said we're going to put some pins in and we're going to circle back about boundaries in a way that would be related more, I guess, in the standpoint of where people are in circumstances where they're not that, you know, their in laws are there and they just have overbearing in laws. So what would you do with that?

[B]

You know, I'm really big on communication.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like conflict. I don't seek it out. I don't want it. But I never run from it. And that's just a personality thing. I'm an eight. I'm an enneagram eight. I'm a challenger. I like loyal. I like justice. I like fair. And if there's a problem, I'm not the one who's gonna fake smile at you in public and feel good about that. I'd rather reach out and try to have a conversation about it and clear the air or fix it or if it doesn't fix, at least I tried. And so I'm like that with my parents too. And I haven't had. This sounds crazy, but I have never had like a tiff with my brothers. Like it's not. I mean like a stupid. Like remember on our wedding night, like my Kevin and I were like mad at each other that night were. But it was like something so dumb. But I've never had like a conversation with my brothers. Like my brother, my brothers had never come to me and like you hurt my feelings when. And I've never gone to my brother and be like, you hurt my feelings when. Because honestly they don't hurt my feelings. Like I. I can't remember when they ever hurt my feelings. And so I'm lucky in that regard with. If I had a tricky in law situation I would, I would challenge myself to if it's really dumb and small. If it was small and it was like a personality thing that she or he can't change. I would suck it up for the betterment of being happy and joyful and we have a good family. And like, putting myself not first. If it was a big thing to where I'm thinking bad thoughts or, like, mean thoughts, or I'm disgruntled or if it's affecting us, I would 100 say, hey, let's chat about this. This makes me feel. And I would try to find what the middle is, because sometimes people don't even know what they're doing. And you didn't even give them a chance because you won't talk to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, that's true.

[A]

Or they're doing what they think is in their best perspective. Because if you have an in law who's saying, hey, as a parent, this is what you should do. There's again, people have the very easy ability to be sideline coaches and. Or, you know, backseat drivers. Right. To tell me what to. Meaning that, like, if you're doing something and you're like, your kids, you know, like, oh, you're too strict on your kids, or you're not strict enough, you should be spanking, you shouldn't be speaking. There's a lot, like, when parents are giving guidance to you, you're like, you could absolutely disagree with because you've set the rules up for your family.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that can get discouraging. I, you know, we can. This is small from, you know, my mom, but the one thing is, is my mom is a. We go visit my mom, you know, a couple times a year up to Wisconsin, and she loves to spoil the absolute crap out of our kids.

[B]

Oh, she feeds them total junk, junk.

[A]

Junk, sugar, junk, sugar, sugar, sugar, junk, junk, junk. And it did. And then. And she. But she does it out of love.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

She really does.

[B]

She wants him to like her a lot.

[A]

It's not liking because I think it makes her feel good. Because the kids get excited.

[B]

Totally. Because they're, like, deprived of, like, a lot of junk.

[A]

And we've had conversations. Hey, mom, can you please not.

[B]

It went from really, like, soft and like, jokey to like, one time Mike was like, mom, I literally just told you no, like, in the kitchen. And she's like, well, like, yeah, but.

[A]

The end of the day, here's my, my perspective of that. We only see her twice a year. Yeah. And if she spoils a crap out of them for two days, it's not the end of the world.

[B]

I think we've met in the middle because you and I had that. It's not we said that. But then she also probably living next to your sister who's also concerned about the sugar. I think she's been trained a little more from your sister to where now she asks. Oh, she never used to ask. So now she at least asks like, can I give the kids these? And then she'll be like, she fine. She'll find like candy or like some kind of sweet gummy. She's like, it's organic. Like it's hilarious. Like perfect. It's like 25 grams of sugar candy.

[A]

My mom, my mom has a hard time when, with like if a kid's breaking down and we're disciplining and sometimes you got a discipline spirit even at your, even at your parents house. And my mom would have a hard time with like she would step in, she'd want to step in and coddle right where we're like, hey, this is not the time to do it because we're right now the kid did something wrong and we are trying to correct the behavior instead of. Yeah, you know, and that's, and that's the, you know, the peacemaking side of my mom. And she is just trying to. It's out of love. And that's, you know, that's where we've learned like, okay, step out.

[B]

But if anyone, this might be relevant to anyone married in, with in laws whenever we have to have. And it hasn't been a lot. But when Mike did have that talk with sue about not interjecting in the middle of disciplinary action, Mike had that conversation. I did not take that on. I told Mike, that's your mom, she needs to hear it from you. And so I will say if you're like a strong personality like me and your trying to deal with your in law, I would say you're. I would encourage you to let your husband deal with it.

[A]

Well, vice versa.

[B]

It goes better because it's her son. And then also I just, I don't know. I know we're all families, so hear me. But like it is his family. I want you to deal with your family's things.

[A]

And I think that's, I think that's fair and vice versa. If you had something, you know, with your parents, if they're coming over too much or when I'm like, hey, coming over too much. I mean, they don't. But they like mom and dad.

[B]

You do not.

[A]

But I'm just saying like, because I've.

[B]

Said, Mike, they're coming over again. Are you good with that? He's like, yeah, I love It. But I always.

[A]

Yeah, I said that as a joke because you're like, they're coming over again this weekend. I'm like, I like it. It's fun. I enjoy hanging out with them.

[B]

We love it.

[A]

But with my mom, it was a simple thing. I just love that. And I. And I. You know, it's. It's. To me, it's just. They. Hey, mom, we're doing this. It's not, you know, this. They're not. We're not. I know, I know you're doing this out of love. And I swear it's too bits like. But right now isn't the right time. Can you please just give us a moment? Then when they're done, go. Then go spoil them. That's fine. Then go cuddle them and lay it out. Like that's all those things are okay to do. But as I remember, you know, that's how she treated me as a kid. Right. You know, and so. And by the way, you know, she's. She's a phenomenal grandmother. She is. Anyway, she's a good mom too.

[B]

Mike does nothing wrong. Yeah, he's perfect.

[A]

Well, it's. When you think is. So here's the funny thing about my. My standpoint is. So you talk about enneagrams. Right. I'm a three.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shaver with nine, which is peacemaker.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Three nine or three seven, which is skeptic. Because I am skeptical.

[B]

7C enthusiasts. That's my wing.

[A]

No, it's my. Then I have the one that's the skeptics. I have skeptic and Peacemaker as my wings. I know that for a fact.

[B]

I only have one. Your wing is what wins your number.

[A]

So I'm in eight weeks on this last night. You go under stress.

[B]

I think you're a wing one. You're a reformer.

[A]

You wing. You wing to the ones that. That line out to you. It's set up in a triangle. It goes under positions of stress. You go to the one place that is that in places of peace, you go towards the other one. Right? So stress I go to skeptic. And peace I go to. I guess enthusiast Peacemaker. Yeah.

[B]

For stress.

[A]

Yeah. It's under that.

[B]

You're telling me that you're a peacemaker in stress ain't buying it. I think you have a different wing Skeptic.

[A]

It wings to the one that's connected to you. I know.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

Here's the your challenger. And yours would be an instigator or a giver. That's what it Wings to.

[B]

I think I know which one it.

[A]

Is, but I want to say you wing to it. That's.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I am it. Wings to the two. I'm. I'm telling you. Wait.

[B]

In stress, I give. Right? I. I'm like, no, just do what you want to do. So if you're a three, you have to wing two or four. That's how it's designed.

[A]

Give her individualist. I don't know. Am I individual? I don't think I'm an individualist. I guess I'd be giver.

[B]

You need to take the test, fool. I don't know.

[A]

I'm definitely. I'm not enneagram Dr. No, but I know. But I always looked at it as. As that I do have a skeptical viewpoint of a lot of things. And at the same time, I'm also. I know for a fact, under stress, I am a peacemaker. That's what it is.

[B]

See the wings?

[A]

Yeah, but look at the lines. The lines. What you can.

[B]

That's different. That's not a wing. You said it incorrectly.

[A]

We just did. We did a whole podcast and two years ago on this. Well, we can go back and listen to our own advice.

[B]

Okay, so I'm an 8 challenger, but I'm a wing enthusiast who just wants to be happy all time the time. So, like, sure, I'm a challenger and I have opinions, but I also just literally want to goof around and act like an idiot most of my days. Yeah, but why do we get on it?

[A]

I was saying about peacemaker. I guess under stress, I'd be a pacemaker. Would you agree with that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So that would make sense. That's why it connects to that. But under. When it. But then skeptic. But I do have. I'm skeptical about some things.

[B]

So am I, but that's different.

[A]

All right. Anyway, with that being said, point is, is in our relationships, the peacemaker aspect comes out to me. With my family, I do try to create the piece. And that also might be a third child thing as well. Or it's like the baby. Just get along, everyone. Yeah, please.

[B]

You also had two sisters. So I can imagine, like the squabbles in your house with sisters for about.

[A]

Seven days a month, there was situations.

[B]

See, see, growing up, I would tell you, you.

[A]

You become keenly aware when mood changes start to shift and irritability starts come up. As a young boy, you're like, like, okay, what is happening right now? And then you become really calm. You're like, okay, this is just this is just hormones.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

So growing tears than normal and more fighting than normal. And then suddenly it's back to normal.

[B]

I was about to say the only thing I remember. We were talking about this a few nights ago, actually. Our childhoods and, like, remembering our siblings. And so Mike grew up with two sisters. I grew up with two brothers. He's the youngest. I'm the oldest. So it's crazy how we have, like. Like polar opposite. I kind of love that. But I grew up with two boys. Even though they're younger than me. I was always trying not to be odd woman out. If they collected baseball cards and were trading in the room, I sure as hell would have my Bugs Bunny leftover binder and all their crap cards that they didn't want. And I'd be like, let's trade, guys. And no one would trade with me because I never bought actual cards they didn't want, but I really wanted to be included. They were fighting and wrestling all the time. I feel like I missed out on conflict. Maybe there wasn't a lot of con, like, with the girl. They fight over clothes. I've had lots.

[A]

Oh, you mean sister to sister.

[B]

Sister to sister. Since I didn't have a sister, I always was like. Felt like I was missing something a little bit. Growing up, I was like, there's only two things that, like, I remember in my childhood being in my head. Like, well, that's kind of sad about my life. Only two things. One, I didn't have grandparents. Close. Everyone had grandparents coming to things. I never had my grandparents.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I really. I didn't like that very much, but it was what it was. Two. And I knew that. Two, I didn't have a sister. And I was like, I never. Everyone else had a sister that I knew sister. And I always thought I was missing out on something. And now that I'm older and being around women, I love women. I love my friends. But maybe brothers are easier.

[A]

I mean, it's a different relationship.

[B]

We don't talk about, like, we talk about deep stuff. Stuff. But it's not.

[A]

Like we talked about this in the friend sample in the last podcast.

[B]

Sounds like I'm like, not a girl's girl. I am a girl's girl. It's just. It is nice to just. When we talk, everything's always good. Like, it is nice.

[A]

Yeah. But you.

[B]

Oh, sorry, let me take it back. But what you miss is, like, you talking about how, like, your middle sister would, like, love on you and give you hugs and, like, both of them. My Brothers didn't come up and tell me that he loved me and give me hugs. I didn't get that part of my. From my siblings. I didn't get physical touch. I didn't get. I'm proud of you. Good job. Whereas women and sisters are more. Yeah, they'll rip your hair off, but they'll also coddle you at the end of the day. I didn't get. I didn't have that.

[A]

I didn't fight with my sisters much at all. My oldest sister was five years older than me, so I probably annoyed the absolute crap out of.

[B]

You did my youngest brother and I.

[A]

The crap probably was the most annoying human. And I actually remember being super annoying. Actually, in my mind, I'm like, wow, I was really annoying kid to them. But it was about wanting to be there because you're.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When she's in high school and you want. You know, I'd run downstairs and make fart noises and stuff. And I had this keyboard that I could record. Like, I don't know if you remember Ferris beer. I'd be like. So I'd play like Mary had a little lamb and farts.

[B]

You had to have been so annoying.

[A]

Like, it'd be as loud as I could, and I would sneak downstairs where my sister's. So. And I'd just be in the hallway playing it. And then of course, like, if she had a boy over, they would laugh. And so it only encouraged me. Yeah. And she's like, get out, Michael. But she was very. My oldest is. They were both very sweet to me. They were very loving to me outside of knowing the crap out of them. I did blackmail my oldest sister a lot.

[B]

Please do tell. What do you mean?

[A]

She had a party? When my mom would leave, she'd have a party once. And then I was like, huh.

[B]

Pretty sure you're not supposed to have a party.

[A]

What did you do? I made her pay me to not tell mom.

[B]

How old were you?

[A]

Probably sixth or seventh grade. Seventh grade.

[B]

Probably smart.

[A]

Yeah. Seventh grade.

[B]

Well done.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I am all for it. This is the sibling stuff I didn't have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Blackmailing each other.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I get made some cash.

[B]

Gosh, well done.

[A]

And I counted it. Good business. It'd be like, in front of me, like, one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was like. I think I only made a pair of, like, 20 bucks. But that was a lot of money back in, like, 1990. 1990.

[B]

You know why I like that one? Entrepreneurship. You saw a problem, you solved it, and you made money doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2. You had your sister's back. I did, and I like that, too. There's like two parts to that.

[A]

Anyway, so. But it's now we're. You know, you talked about the sister relationships. Like, we're. We have Berkeley and Vivian, and they're only four years apart. Right. Three years, actually. Three and a half years.

[B]

And can I interject here to where Mike can back me up? When I found out I was having a girl, I was, like, kind of terrified of the sister relationship because I hadn't navigated that. Do you remember that? Where I went through that, like, the first year, and I was like, I just want them to love each other. Like, I want all this. I want sisters to love each other. You're supposed to be the best friend. And like, what if they're not? And I remember, like, spiraling being like, how do I encourage them? And I'm just emulating what my parents did because we're all very close. And so I'm just emulating that. No matter the gender, your siblings are your people. They are your family. They will always have your back. They'll always be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm just going to stick to that because I don't know anything else.

[A]

Yeah, well, with them, I mean, they're young enough right now that there's not. There's very little drama because they're only 6 and 10, but they're. The only thing right now you can see is, like, Vivian still in that I want to copy Berkeley face. Right. And that does.

[B]

She'll be there for life.

[A]

That does kind of annoy Berkeley a little bit. But Berkeley is also. She'll get annoyed and then she's like, fine. And she gets over it because she's also very like. Fortunately, Berkeley's pretty sweet and she peacemaker for the most part, and, you know, please her. She gets him. When she gets tired, she gets a little bit more frustrated about things, but she does allow her to kind of come into that. They do fight about alone time. Like, if I'm driving a car, they want to spend time with me. Or vice versa with you. They like. They sometimes want that one on one time, which is completely. So Berkeley's like, hey, I kind of want to just drive with dad. Vivian's like, I'm going with you.

[B]

Well, I'm coming.

[A]

I'm coming, too.

[B]

I just want to, like, do this Berkeley's. And even sometimes Berkeley will play it smart and she'll be like. She'll tell me. She's like, I'm gonna go with you, but I'M gonna say out loud, I'm gonna go with dad. Then I'm gonna change my mind. I'm like, what is this mind game? She's like, I'm gonna go with dad. And baby's like, I'm gonna go with dad. And Berkeley goes, never mind. I'll go with Mom. And baby's like, I'll go with Mom. Like, changes instantly. And Berkeley's like, like, so mad.

[A]

But they just want to be. I mean, that's. I mean, the cool thing is, I mean. And I guess there's other questions about how to be create, you know, how to create a family culture. How do we, you know, say no to our family without having guilt? And I think those. A couple things we can have it on. But with the kids, the one thing you say, I say with our family, like, we can't choose our family. You can have a chosen family.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

But our family is where they are. And I, you know, talked Yvonne about this. It's about, you know, setting those moments up and hopefully having that point where, like, there's going to be friction and frustration. Your kids are going to fight. They are going to fight. Most kids fight, probably some families, maybe they don't. Our kids annoy each other. They put. They totally get each other. Right. So it's hopefully that there's more net positive. They come out and this thing, as I say, is like, we can't choose them. We love them. And the one thing is, as a families are always there, should be there to love them. And we talk about our kids, set a point of like creating positive memories with each other. Is it going to happen all the time? No. But we can do our best to like, encourage it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because all they don't want is have is an adult relationship when they're like their arm's distance each other. And then there's unfortunate. There's a lot of families out there. Yeah. It is sad that that there are families out there that don't have a great relationship with each other. And their chosen point to not talk to each other. Maybe they have to do that out of. And it's sad. It is. It's. I feel bad for people that have that circumstance.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For whatever reason they are. And I don't know what the reasons are, but I hope it, like, that's the prayer I have is our family never gets that.

[B]

Well, I hate to say it, and it's gonna piss a lot of people off, but I think it's much easier to be mad and pick out things you don't like about family rather than work on it. It's way easier to just. Just be like. And push people away.

[A]

Well, there's hurt. I mean there's.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

People sometimes when you've been hurt in the past, people put walls up because you don't want to pick those scabs again. Because if you have a scar and you're like, so that's what I'm saying though.

[B]

It's much easier to find where people do wrong by you than right by you. And like I think people who maintain good like you, how you've maintained to have a positive relationship with people in your family and parents. And you chose to do that. And you know for sure that you could choose a different direction. And you're not going to do that because why you've said that. Why would I do that? And I think sometimes people get in their own way and by not choosing to move through it, they sit in it and then they're just killing themselves like emotionally.

[A]

It's like sometimes. Yeah. I think that's one thing is if you. I think people often try to renew. If you relive your past too much, it creates. You never let something heal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that can be contrary to maybe what I mean. Actually, I believe there's more data even associated this like too much counseling isn't good. Right. And I will stand by that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Too much isn't good.

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

Proper counseling is appropriate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Proper help is appropriate because that person.

[B]

To help you pull through. Right.

[A]

If you. If you have re. If you relive things over and over and over and over again without any intent to heal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It'll only create more negative emotions and more things. And there's another thing that happens is we often. And I don't know if you know this, like we create memories. A lot of our memories are fake.

[B]

I believe that. Yeah. I'll see like a picture and it like creates a memory of that photo. But I don't actually remember that memory, but I think it's a memory. But now I'm not sure if you.

[A]

Have a third person view of your memory. That's not a real memory. You're living through the picture. You're living to the moment. If you're thinking through it and you're seeing yourself. And I thought it was like it's not a real.

[B]

Like it's a movie. If you see it as a movie, that's probably.

[A]

We remember and we. And there's probably very strong. There's real memories. You can have like, I remember 9, 11 that day for sure. There's things that you have these moments like, wow, that, like, you know, big.

[B]

Impact because you were an adult. We're talking about when you're a kid.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Memory.

[A]

But even that harder to even. That point is, is that some of our memories aren't actually really as real as we think they are because we create stories in our head to complete the blades where our brain works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doesn't mean that you're wrong to have that memory.

[B]

No, I.

[A]

But there might not be full. Full validity in what you're feeling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Anyway, the point is this. I'm not saying don't get counseling to people, because I'm telling 100. Tell people, get counseling, get help, talk to people. If you have experiencing anything, you definitely want to have people a sport of love and of truth and of guidance to get you through the past, to be able to mend you, to be able to find real healing and forgiveness. Because without forgiveness, you can't ever heal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the hardest thing is how.

[B]

Do you know people forgive people for doing really heinous things.

[A]

Oh, jeez.

[B]

And so if you.

[A]

Charlie Kirk's wife forgave.

[B]

If you.

[A]

The killer.

[B]

I mean, it's wild if you think about that. It like what people are forgiving people, you know, doing things. If you look at your life and you're like, okay, is I should be able to forget, you know, and there's some really. People have gone through some really traumatic stuff. So there's obviously, like, caveats here. But if you're talking about just from like a divorced family and all the trauma that comes with that, like, you know, Mike is live. I. I really can't talk about this because I didn't have that. But Mike's sitting here with a positive attitude, and that's through work and choice. I think it is. I think it's your choice.

[A]

I have had. I have had a good life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I had a perfect life. No.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't think anyone has.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's no such thing. That's a fake thing. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I don't, you know, choose to live in trauma. I don't choose to live in and hurt because it is. I do believe there's a mindset and aspect to it, and everyone's circumstance is different.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A little sidebar. On one things.

[B]

We didn't talk anything about boundaries.

[A]

How do you. How do you. Like, how do you. So let's try to fit boundaries. One thing is, is we, you know.

[B]

I Don't like that word. I don't know why. I think it's kind of offensive.

[A]

Let's. Let's talk.

[B]

No, I do. I don't like it. I feel like if someone were to tell me, like, jen, I love you so much, but this is my boundary for you. That would hurt my feelings.

[A]

Yeah, it's negative sounds.

[B]

It sounds like. Like a hot word right now. Okay, I'm gonna put a boundary on you. Like, it's kind of hurtful. Like, if.

[A]

How did you. You make a word for it?

[B]

Then I would think about. I wouldn't. Yes. I. Instead of being like, I'm calling it a fence, I guess. I guess behind. Let me. Let me.

[A]

I'm gonna call it my prison. You can't.

[B]

Let me. Let me restate this. If I'm talking to Mike about a boundary with a family member, fine, because it's behind closed doors. But as far as, like, when you're talking to someone to their face and you're, like, trying to navigate a problem, I probably wouldn't come out with, I'm going to put a boundary. I'm going to talk about my boundaries.

[A]

Why would you say that's rude?

[B]

Like, yeah, I wouldn't like that.

[A]

No.

[B]

I guess I don't think I have any boundaries. I think what I've learned is like.

[A]

Of course we do.

[B]

I know. I'm trying to even think of, like, my parents. I think what I've learned as an adult, like, coming into being an adult now, an adult child in the first child in my mind, me disagreeing with my parents thoughts or opinions is not disrespect. I've never thought that. So I had to be okay.

[A]

Used to kind of feel that way, maybe. Yeah.

[B]

Because I think that was how I was taught, if I'm gonna be really honest. I think I was taught that if you give your opinion back, it kind of is like back talking or it's like being disrespectful. But now I'm like, I'm 38 years old. I don't. Yeah. And I have my own. And I'm not the same person as my mom or my dad. I'm different. I would say I'm like a mix of both of them. Really.

[A]

Well, it's what I've even said, like, sometimes when you're, you know, if you have your kids, friends, and stuff like that, we just always remember you're the adult and what you say kind of goes. And you can be kind of like. You can be in a position of authority. To be like, stop. Yeah, don't do this, guys. Like, even if they're not your kids. I know. Because you are an adult and they're children and same time. But you're now an adult. And yeah, I guess it's so one of the questions. How do you say no without being guilt. Feeling guilt. How do you say no to your family without saying guilty? I mean that's part of.

[B]

I actually don't have guilt with that. If we're really busy, I'll say, I'm so sorry, guys. I. But I also, you know why I think I have that comfort and that confidence in saying no is because my family does not pressure me and make me feel bad for saying no. So I'll put that out there. My parents are really good about, like totally understand. My mom specifically is really, really good because she's a mom of three kids. She knows like it's crazy. She'll call me and be like, if we can shouldn't come, we will not come. Like she will one off me if it's. She feels like it's too much. So they give me the space to feel okay being like no. But I also don't say no a lot. If they want to come over and they're willing to drive to us, I'm like, come on.

[A]

We're like, hey, we got too much going on this weekend. It's just busy day. Let's just. Let's just postpone another time. And yeah. And I think it's about how you healthily communicate things. And guilt's often you like, it's. There's two places you can have guilt from. You can put guilt upon yourself or somebody be putting guilt upon you as well. Like there are people that guilt trip people. That is a very real thing. Yeah, but then that's the perspective. How do you receive that? And again, going back to my perspective of are you doing the right thing for your family? Are you doing it with selfishness or not selfishness? And if it's not selfish, you're doing the right things. Hey, you know, and if person wants to guilt trip you, it's kind of on them. It's kind of. That's not on you. Right. That's on them to do the guilt trip. Hey, love you. But not. Not comfortable with this. You know, only small example kind of have is kind of setting up our own tradition. Remember we. We used to travel with her family in Christmas time to go visit my family. Where we were. We were planning going back and forth every single year. That was kind of the goal, like, you know, spend year. One year with Jen's family, another year with. With my family. And I was like, I think I'm. It was maybe two years, one year, but I. It was. Yeah. I was at the old.

[B]

When I was pregnant with Vaughn. We hadn't had kids yet.

[A]

No, we did one. We did one more year. And then I was like, I'm done.

[B]

No, only that one. I cried in the bathroom of that church when the pastor was telling the story about the squirrel.

[A]

Squirrel story.

[B]

Remember that?

[A]

The most impactful Christmas story ever.

[B]

And the man found me in the bathroom sobbing. And he was like, are you okay? And I was like, oh, okay. I'm just away from my family. That's what you get when you marry real young and pregnant. I was so sad. I did not want to be there. And probably a jerk. I didn't mean to be a jerk. I don't think you remember me. I wasn't a jerk, but I cried a lot. And I think it's also. I was very pregnant.

[A]

You were super pregnant.

[B]

So that was what, December. We had Vaughn in May. So I was right in the middle of my pregnancy. See, I was big. Like, I was feeling pregnant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was just like, this isn't Christmas. This isn't how it's supposed to be. And I was so selfish.

[A]

We talked about.

[B]

Break it down. I was selfish.

[A]

Your Christmas. Did your family knows Christmas a whole nother way. I was like, I've never seen so much. This is wild. This is crazy Christmas. Eight days to open presents. I'm just kidding. But it. But it was a whole thing. Like, your entire family came over and then everyone brought gifts. I was like. Like, this is wild, fun, different.

[B]

Hold on. No, no, I'm back. That real quick. You said there's presents and crap everywhere. Remember my parents, when they first got married? They were 21 years old. 22. My mom stayed home and my dad was a police officer. Okay. The money wasn't rolling in at the beginning. My parents were so. My mom. I'm. I'm gonna put this on my mom. I'm sure my mom was so good at, like, every single little present got wrapped individually.

[A]

Well, that's what I mean.

[B]

That crap spread.

[A]

No, that's.

[B]

I'm not saying they still do that to this day. We will. I do it too.

[A]

You got in an argument with me. This whole tradition thing. Jen's family has this stocking tradition, Right? I know we had stockings as well, but it had some candy. There you go. Here's your Candy. It's in the stocking. Awesome, right? Jen's family wraps every piece of candy, every tiny knickknack, like dollar store stuff that's wrapped to the point where you got mad at me one of the first years. You're like, I guess my talking was okay.

[B]

I never said.

[A]

Yes, you did. Oh, Lord. I remember. Like, I felt guilty, I guess.

[B]

My stockings.

[A]

You did.

[B]

I'm not even a gifts person.

[A]

You just said you cried when you went to my family's house at Christmas. I did. Maybe you were being a baby, but the one thing as that I was saying is that I was very hard lined about saying Christmas is going to be at our house. We have.

[B]

I'm kids now that you recall it that way, because I thought I was gonna have to be the one to be like, mike, we're not going to see your family at Christmas. And the fact that you did it, what a blessing. Because I wanted to stay home too.

[A]

No. And I had the conversation with my family and I, you know, I talked to my sisters and mom and I was just like, look it. Traveling at winter time with all the gifts with the kids there, it's not what I want to do. I want to create the tradition of having home. And plus, where does Santa. I mean, Santa is gonna get confused. We wanted Santa.

[B]

Santa will get confused.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Santa will be like, why are these fools never home on Christmas? Yeah.

[A]

He's like, I'm dropping the gifts off. Serious. No, but we wanted to have the traditions there. I wanted to wake up, up Christmas morning to be at our house in their bed and have your stupid music that they're playing in the morning.

[B]

Stupid music. That is offensive. It's the Norman Rockwall Rockwell. Norman Rockwell Christmas.

[A]

Christmas. Which you can't.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

It tells you how bad it is. They don't even stream it. It's not available anywhere except for on an old cd, which is kind of.

[B]

Are you mad at me? Like, why are you shooting these shots, Mike? It's a beautiful.

[A]

This is a bit. It's a joke. And it's. It's.

[B]

I mean, it's irritated that I'm offended.

[A]

That's like, hey, look, Vaughn. Vaughn said the other day, he's like. He's like, it is tradition. So you've made it.

[B]

Mom, are you gonna play the music? The cd? I'm like, yes. I have to get out a CD player, put the CD in and push play.

[A]

Yes. Oh, the agony of doing it.

[B]

I'm gonna look it up.

[A]

Anyway, so we set that. And that's the one thing is, to me, was anchoring that at our home to be able to create those memories.

[B]

And I told our family, Rockwell is a painter. Hold on.

[A]

Right? It's. It is. That's what it is. But it's also the cd. Let me. Okay, let me finish what you're doing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So as they. As what I told my family and I talked to them about coming to our home, if you want to be a part of it, you're welcome to be a part of it. But we are. Christmas is at my house, moving forward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just said. And I know it may sound selfish, and it might be a little bit selfish, but this is what we're doing. This is what I want to do, and this is how we want to do it in order to do. Create our own traditions. It was just basically telling our family, like, you're welcome to be a part of it. If you want to come to our home, you're welcome to be part of our home. But Christmas morning, we will wake up in my. At our house. And that's how I'm doing Christmas moving forward. I love you guys, and we'll find other holidays to do, but Christmas is not the one we're traveling for. And that's how we did with Christmas.

[B]

And there's so many people listening probably, like, I wish I could just say that.

[A]

And that's how we did it. But what we did. What we did is we created said. So my dad has Christmas a few days earlier at house. We call, go to his place. We open gifts up from them. They do their, like a, you know, a dinner there. And we kind of have a couple Christmases, but Christmas morning is at our house. So we have a. We have a party on Christmas Eve with friends and family. And then Christmas morning, Christmas Day, your family comes over. It's always been. And then we invite other people. They want to come as well. But it's always been your. Your immediate family.

[B]

It's two days of chaos. Christmas Eve, it's my family, his family.

[A]

And friends, employees come over.

[B]

Friends, employees. Like, it's just a Christmas Eve bash. And then we have to clean that up real fast because then Christmas is the next day. And then my. All my extended family comes for Christmas dinner after we open presents. So we cater.

[A]

We cater in Christmas Eve. We don't cook on Christmas Eve.

[B]

Oh, I left that in the past a long time ago. I decided overdo. I was like, mike, I have three small kids. I'm already hosting Christmas. I think Christmas I started with just making like soups and stuff. Like really easy stuff.

[A]

When we ate out of dog bowls. Did happen. If you don't know. If you don't know the story, remember that. Find it. There's plenty. We Jen's. Jen served Christmas meal.

[B]

His family. His family in dog bowls.

[A]

They said, nash, woof, yum, yum, or whatever. It was already done.

[B]

I don't. To my defense, I don't think any of them said wolf, wolf. But they did say nosh for sure. And it was my sister in law that was like, Jess is like, are these dog bowls?

[A]

No, I said that because I told.

[B]

You they were dog bowls, Jessica.

[A]

And you're like, no, these. You're like, they're not dog bowls. They were, they're.

[B]

I got them in the dish section.

[A]

No, you did not.

[B]

Yes, I did. Oh, did I say I found them in the dogs?

[A]

Yes. I go. Because they're dog bowls. You're like, well, they're cute. Nobody's gonna notice. And then Jess was like, she's like, are these dog bowls? Yeah, like, yeah. Yes, they are dog bowls. Anyway, so that's still a core memory.

[B]

It's so funny. And it's true. And he said it in front of everyone. Everyone realized they were eating food out of dog bowls.

[A]

But I love that soup. It was that Giada's white chili, that.

[B]

White bean, that soup.

[A]

It's one of my favorite meals we make.

[B]

Well, anyway, now we don't because we cater because I. I'm stressed. I cannot cook two large meals back to back in Christmas. My mom, like, I would say my mom facilitates it. Wouldn't you say that's the best? My mom's like, running the kitchen as far as, like, Jen, have you done this? She's definitely facilitating the meal because she's done it for decades. And I also have three kids running around and it's fun.

[A]

I love Christmas at our house. It's literally. I love it. It's joyful, it's awesome. But yeah, the catering thing we did, we did Olive Garden. Now we've been doing armor and it's kind of, you know, we have.

[B]

I think I'm thinking about a conversation I had with my mom a few years ago. My mom is like the hostess of hostesses. She does everything full out to the nines. And she is a very good hostess. I don't care as much for being honest and I love having people over. But if we eat on paper plates, we eat on paper plates.

[A]

And no, you don't do that. You get Those fancy plastic Christmas.

[B]

Well, I'm talking about just in general. I don't do everything to the nines. I have people come over and I had to realize really quickly, like, if I wanted to, for my, like, stress and anxiety. If I wanted to be a house where people come over, I have to be okay with people coming over, like, last minute and me not having everything planned out. And we do take out a lot because I don't want to cook while people are over. Whereas my mom will, like, cook when people are over. Right. So I had to tell her earlier on. I'm like, mom, I have little kids. I do not want their memory to be me in the kitchen cooking most of the day. This has got to be easy peasy. I. That's when I ordered the turkey, started catering the turkey. I've never made a turkey and I don't want to. I have no. Nothing to prove on making a turkey myself. We order the turkey and then everyone brings aside. Or me and my mom and my aunt split that up. But. But anyway, I just feel, I realized, like, I needed to be easier and I can't do everything by myself. And I, I actually just, truth be told, I don't want to do everything by myself. And so I'm more than welcome for everyone to come to us and mess up our home. And I do cook some side dishes, but, like, everyone pitches in and it's worked out really, really well. My mom will come over. Like, my parents come over a few days before Christmas and they spend the night until after Christmas. And so my mom and I would generally be cooking on December 23rd. And that way we have Christmas Eve to hang out. We go to church, and then we're not doing a lot of cooking. We'll do everything, breakfast, everything.

[A]

On the Christmas Eve, your. Your dad and I go over the brewery to pick up the food and.

[B]

And take two hours.

[A]

Maybe spend another extra hour there just because food sometimes takes a long time. It's really busy day.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Or, yeah, we gotta make sure there's quality service. We gotta say Merry Christmas to all our. Our guests. It's really, it's a fun time anyway, but that's been awesome. It's one way to create tradition. And according to our son, anytime we do something one time, it's. It's a tradition.

[B]

I mean, like, can we eat a Popeyes? No, Vaughn, we're not eating a Popeyes. Why? It's tradition. I go, von, you've had Popeyes one time in your entire life. Why?

[A]

Yeah, but it was one Year ago today.

[B]

Yeah, but it was one year ago. Do you remember how we did it after that? Like, he ties everything and gotta love him. He's like a master manipulator on our emotions. I'm sentimental.

[A]

It's traditional tradition. Yeah, it's what's. So. It's been fun. It's the one thing Jen and I was like, where I was like, what's a tradition?

[B]

Yeah, it's a tradition. We say that all the time. If Michael do something one time. And I'm like, well, it's a tradition now. Anyway, on that note, we have got to go. It's been well over an hour.

[A]

Man, we didn't even. This is so many other.

[B]

We could talk about more.

[A]

So many other ones that we haven't even tapped into. We could do all we really could. Because maybe next time let's just be, like, focused on the questions and answer the questions. We've sidebarred a lot and this is okay, but I think it's been.

[B]

But I feel like when we sidebar and we don't have an outline, people get to actually hear our thoughts. Like, our true thoughts versus, like, if we wrote out a script, then I don't want to listen to that. And a podcaster, personally, I'd rather them, like, flow and go with it.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

That's that regard. If you have any suggestions or topics that you want us to talk about, please email you, me and Mike, all written out. You, me and mike, podcast gmail.com. you can ask us to talk about certain things. Give us your thoughts, give us feedback. If you liked what you heard and want to give us a rating, we would love and appreciate that so much. Y' all have been amazing to us.

[A]

Five.

[B]

Five stars are first. But, you know, if any. Well, no, not any. We don't want the one. Just don't. Just leave. Just don't listen anymore.

[A]

It's fine. It's all good.

[B]

I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your week. Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you on the next one.

[A]

Have fun with your families. Love on them.

[B]

Have fun with your families. Love on them.

[A]

That's the whole point of it. It's true. Love on your family.

[B]

Want to give me a hug.

[A]

Bakers? And on that note, see you guys next week.

[B]

Bye, guys.