← Young and Profiting with Hala Taha
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha
Dr. John Delony: The Mental Health Crisis Silently Destroying Entrepreneurs | Mental Wealth Series | E2
01:20:47
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Hey Young and profits. When I think back to the early days of YAP Media, I was way too scrappy. I'm talking about working out of coffee shops, bouncing between public WI FI networks and hotspotting from my phone just to get through on a client call without the connection dropping. But looking back, it was actually adding a lot of unnecessary stress because you realize pretty quickly your business is only as strong as your connection. It's how you run meetings, serve clients and keep everything moving. And that's exactly why I wish I had AT&T business back then. AT&T business is a reliable provider for small business owners. For Small Business Month, we celebrate small businesses by helping them run better. This means reliable uptime, easy switching, smart communications. You need a provider that is as serious about your success as you are. Like AT&T business built to work. Get AT&T business@business.att.com that's business.att.com Today's episode is sponsored in part by Huel AT&T business. Through Mintly and Prolon, Huel makes nutritionally complete meals that you can drink. Get 15% off with my code yap15@heal.com yap15@&t business delivers reliable business grade connectivity that gives your team a competitive edge. Switch to ATT business@business.att.com millions of people trust Remitly to move money globally. Use Code Business to get a hundred dollar bonus to after you send $300 or more with Remitly to redeem, visit the Rewards tab on the Remitly app and enter the code Business Prolon puts you in the right fasting state so you can lose weight and reset your body. Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day program. Just visit prolonlife.com Profiting as always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes or@youngandprofiting.com deals I
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look at anxiety as a good thing. It's an alarm system in your kitchen. Your smoke detector is annoying. It can ruin your evening when it's going off, but it also will save your life.
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Dr. John Deloney is a bestselling author, a mental health expert, and the host of the Dr. John DeLoney show, where he helps millions navigate anxiety, trauma and life's toughest situations.
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What are you worth? What's your worth? We answer the question what are you worth in our culture with a number that's insanity.
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The problem with men not feeling like they can open up. They just want to keep going and going and going.
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Men are socialized from the age of two to shut up and just go on do the next thing. For all of human history, men were able to share who they were, but they did it shoulder to shoulder doing things. Those things have been taken away. Your 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s will be built on the foundation you built at 20 and 30. The mental health community has failed dramatically. Telling people that mental and emotional health is getting all the right thoughts in the right order. That's false. If I would give 30 year old entrepreneur who has dreams of success, I would tell him.
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Hello Yap gang. Welcome to week two of our four part mental wealth series where we're learning how to build successful businesses without living in constant stress and survival mode. Today we're sitting down with mental health expert Dr. John DeLoney to talk about anxiety burnout and why your anxiety may actually be a signal from your body that something in your life needs attention. If you haven't yet, head to yap media.commental wealth to download your free mental wealth playbook. Your challenge for week two is to complete the safety audit worksheet. You're going to find out what a safety audit is in this episode and the safety audit will help you stop white knuckling your way through life and start building a more peaceful, grounded business and life. Yeah, fam. Let's dive right in today's conversation and build our mental wealth. John, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
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B
What's up, Hala? Thanks for having me on.
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Yeah, I'm so excited for this conversation. I feel like the topic of anxiety is so important for entrepreneurs because we're highly anxious people and there's lots of reasons why entrepreneurs tend to have anxiety or think they have anxiety. So let's take it back to 2010 when you actually realized that you had anxiety and you were quite burnt out and so it seemed like you were living the perfect life. You know, you had a beautiful family and everything like that, but everything kind of came crashing down for you in 2010. So talk to us about those moments.
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I mean, I think they start really when I was young and trying to figure out what's, like, what's, what's my role going to be on this little planet we're on this little rock we're floating around on and, and how can I fulfill my role in my family? How can I make my little mark on the world, right? And I think like all, all of us, I just did the thing that was in front of me, like go to school and go be successful and then go get married and then do your best to have a kid and then try to make as much money as you can and then get this job title and this job title. Ultimately, what started out as small little cracks in the foundation, and it became. I tried to solve those things by making more money and getting promoted again and buying something bigger and, and just doing the next thing that the world told me was going to make me okay. And yeah, it didn't end well. It didn't end well. And I guess I. I'll say this, you and I, all of the people listening, we all know those big stories, the big crashes, right? Like you blow your business up or you cheat on your spouse like these. That didn't happen to me. For me, it was. And over the last decade, as I've sat with people sitting behind closed doors, especially young entrepreneurs, trying to figure out what to do next, it's not the big, huge explosion that makes the headlines. It's these quiet young men, these quiet young women, these new dads, these, these. These business owners that have big dreams for themselves that just roast out and nobody ever sees it. They. They just burn from the inside out. And so I had a young baby, and I had a wife that I cared about, that we had grown a thousand miles apart from each other. And so I had to get well, I had to figure out what's going on while we were still flying down the highway. So I had to change the oil on the car while I was still moving. And that in and of itself was its own adventure, right? But it started with me getting in a car and driving three hours away and sitting with a buddy and saying he happened to be a physician. I just said, hey, I'm. I'm at the end of my rope, man. And that was the first time I ever opened my mouth and said, hey, I'm not okay. And it's been a long, steady figuring out why that happened and how that happened and what happened to me and what happened to my marriage, what happened to my friends and what happened to our culture that's landed me here.
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I think you call this white knuckling, right? Kind of just like getting by through life and like, just pretending that everything's okay. And it's like, very performative, right? You're just like, performing instead of really listening to what going on in your body. Why do you think that so many high achievers and entrepreneurs kind of white knuckle themselves through life like this? And how can you tell if that's what you're doing.
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Our culture has no, no places, no value on the. Why. Why are you doing this? Like, I want to, I want to start a business. Why? I want to, I want to be my own boss. Why? I want to make this many millions of dollars in this amount of time. And I'm haunted, absolutely haunted by that Michael Jordan series. I think it was called the Last Dance on ESPN when they walked through the Chicago Bulls. I remember Michael Jordan sitting in a hotel room and the greatest basketball player of all time just, just signed this bajillion dollar contract. He was the, he was the guy, still is the guy. And I remember him looking at the camera sitting in a hotel room and they were talking about how he couldn't go out in the lobby and use the bathroom because there's too many people out there. And he looked at the camera and he said, you don't want this life. And I remember exhaling and saying, yeah, what's all this for? For six pieces of cloth hanging in a gym somewhere, like so that people talk about you and your dad. And I was looking at, I remember watching that video and seeing he doesn't have anybody in his life not on his payroll. And I remember just saying, why? And so our culture does not place any value on the day in and day out lived experience of our human lives. It just has this metric that keeps moving. And here's where I think for me, I just dialed all the way down to this. We answer the question, what are you worth in our culture with a number, it's insanity. What are you worth? What's your worth? What's your business worth? What's your net worth? And the answer to the question what are you worth? Is never a number. It's who do you love and who loves you, period? And we've just gotten out of order. We're trying to hack our way to this, this, this sensation, this feeling. And so I guess how you know you're there is eventually your body will start to shut you down. And so for me, I had to take chemicals to wake up. I was loaded up on a thousand milligrams of caffeine just to get out the door. And then I had to take chemicals to go sleep. And then I had to take chemicals to have fun. And then I had to take chemicals to like when, when you start having to augment your just human existence, basic human ups and downs. That's when your body's telling you, hey, we're, I'm about to, I'm about to shut the door on this Whole thing. And eventually your body will, will say, I quit, I'm out. And that's burnout.
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Wow. And I want to talk about like medication and what you think about that related to anxiety and things like that. But first let's talk about masculinity and you know, the problem with men not feeling like they can open up. I feel like this is much more a problem with men and then also like really high achieving women who might be leaning into their masculine energy. Right. We just want to keep, you know, going and going and going and not really listening to ourselves. So talk about that problem and why it's so dangerous.
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I mean, I'll, I'll reverse engineer that question. It's dangerous because it'll kill you. It's dangerous because look around at our culture. There's nobody writing blogs other than like Scott Calloway. There's nobody writing blogs on the plight of men. And if you look at the suicide statistics, if you look at the mental health catastrophe that is men, if you look at the loneliness, the joblessness, the, the, the incarceration rates, men are not thriving. There's a few at the very tip, tip tip top. And we like to point at all them and say, look at that. But men are socialized from the age of two to shut up and just go on, do the next thing. And nobody cares about how you feel. Stop whining, stop complaining and just go, go, go, go, go. And so all men are taught at a very young age how you feel about a thing. The things going on inside your chest simply do not matter. Nobody cares. And as that message has accelerated through our culture, you've seen what I would call catastrophic job loss. Like technology has taken away jobs that traditionally men have done. And men have also been blamed over the last 50 to 100 years for every single solitary problem on the planet. And so I think in mass, men have gotten the message, we don't need you, we don't want you. You're a burden to all of us. If you can't sit still in a classroom at the age of six, then we're going to say something's wrong with your brain and we're going to dope you up and we're going to blame you for wanting to move or wanting to go outside or wanting to have experiences. Right? And so I think men in large have gotten the message that the world doesn't want them around. And so there's just been this, this detachment from the world. Then we're going to either stay at home and play video games or we're going to start just lighting stuff on fire. And that's what we're seeing all around us. And so I think it's baked into us culturally and in the, in full of human history, men were able to share who they were, but they did a shoulder to shoulder doing things and those things have been taken away. And so it's just be quiet or type, type on a computer, tell the computer, tell the, tell the keyboard, you know how you feel about something. And those little ecosystems are created. So it's a whole bunch of things happening all at the same time. And I think it's the worst case scenario for the, for the, for every inhabitant of the planet. And then I think for women, they've been told, hey, the only way you can experience joy and success in this world is to interact with the world like men. You got to drink like a guy, you have to sleep around like a guy. You have to play these boardroom games like men. And there's been a quiet drop off. That again, I haven't seen. It's rather underreported of women getting to be CEOs and just saying this is stupid. Like, what are you, what are y' all doing? Like, I got, I, I gave up all of my life to play y' all stupid game. And this is what it is. Y' all sit around a table and like try to out, like out earn each other. This is a, not a life. Right. And so I think it's all at the same time, but I think we've all just been given a really ugly script about what success and joy and purpose is and it's costing us all our very souls.
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Yeah. As you're talking about this, I'm thinking about like the men in my life. And I've got a lot of like successful entrepreneurial men in my life and I actually feel like they're quite healthy in the way that they interact. Because I do feel like when you're a leader, you lead teams, you often know how to lead yourself, right? And so they are meeting up with their guy friends, they are playing, you know, poker or going golfing or whatever. But I feel like it's this tier of like younger men who are still lost playing video games, like haven't found themselves or not necessarily successful and they haven't yet been able to like get to that like different level of self awareness. So what advice do you have to the 30 year old? You know, the average person listening to the show is a 30 year old male millennial who might not be an entrepreneur yet, but is ambitious. What's your advice to them to make sure they don't like fall into this trap.
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If I could sit down with my 30 year old self and I'm 40, I'm 47, I'm an old man now. If I could sit down with my 30 year old self, I would look him in the eye and say I know you feel like going all in with my wife and co creating a world together. I know it feels like you're going to sacrifice quote, quote, unquote like you time the things you love, your dreams. I would tell them, you have no idea what's coming when you're knocking on 50, what your life will feel like. I would tell myself, I know you think kids are going to ruin your life. It's extraordinary. I know you think you're missing out when you're 30, be quiet and just take on two jobs, three jobs. Keep saying yes to hard projects and new experiences and you, your 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s will be built on the foundation you built at 20 and 30. And so it's, it's, I think we love the Instagram pictures of the guy who's been in the gym for 10 years. We don't love the pictures of the day in and day out. You're exhausted and it's five. It was me this morning at 5:45 this morning. The last thing on earth they want to do is go lift weights. But I want to be able to roll around with my grandkids and I have a nine year old daughter. I want her to see me running alongside her at her little fourth grade cross country meet. I can only do that if I'm getting in and putting in the work. And I speak to big stages all over the country at big corporate events. I recently started a few months ago at a local comedy club here, going up and doing 10 minute segments so I can get better at bringing joy to people, being better as a speaker. Like those hours aren't wasted but we keep being obsessed with what we think the finish line is going to feel like instead of finding the joy in that adventure. I mean it's so cliche at this point. My 30 year old self by the way would be rolling my, my eyes at myself right now. Um, it's those long thankless midnight hours that you put in your 20s and 30s. It's those relationships you invest in that end up roiing in a way that you could not fathom and you can't see them on a spreadsheet.
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Yeah, and so you got to get, you got to get out and do stuff. You can't just be isolating yourself with, you know, computer games or just video games and on the computer and things like that.
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If I would tell, if I would give 30 year old, like a 30 year old entrepreneur who has dreams of success, I would tell them, be in your home as, as, as little as possible. Go be out laughing with people, having coffee with people, having experience putting yourself out in weird situations. Take a class, go dancing. Go, go take jiu jitsu classes. Go try stand up. Go put yourself in situations that are going to make you uncomfortable and where you can be around other people doing their craft and it will lift up every part of your life. And when you're 65 and you're sitting with a group of people who gave their souls to a dollar amount, you will realize, oh, I've got a rich life, well lived.
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Yeah, I love that. So you've mentioned that you speak on stages and you recently said on stage or you've said on stage in the past, I don't have anxiety anymore. So that's a really hopeful statement for a lot of people listening in who feel like anxiety is something that they can never get rid of. And you said you straight up don't have it anym. So talk to us at a high level how you did that. And then of course we're going to kind of unravel it and go through details.
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I hope I didn't say it that boldly. I still get anxious. I guess what I would say is this. I think our framing, our discussion around anxiety is out of whack. I look at anxiety as a good thing. It's an alarm system in your kitchen and it's a smoke detector. And so your smoke detector is annoying. It's, it can ruin your evening when it's going off, but it also will save your life. And so I think in our culture we, we have a, we have a story that is if you're uncomfortable or if something is painful, then it must be, it must be eradicated. We gotta get rid of it. And so the way I look at anxiety now when I start to feel anxious is what's my body trying to protect me from? Because it's detected something in the world that's, that's not safe and that's not a bad thing. I don't like it doesn't feel right, but man. So if I did say that on stage, I was probably spoke a little too boldly. But I lived a very Anxious existence because I outsourced my feelings to a paycheck. I outsourced my feelings and my, my health to business metrics and to achievement metrics and to performing with people instead of being with people, being over people instead of being with people. And so I, I don't, I don't live that life anymore. And underneath all that, I took a bunch of steps to create a non anxious life so that when I do get anxious, then I know the alarms. That means something's on fire. I'm gonna go deal with the fire. I'm not just gonna climb up in my kitchen and take the batteries out of the alarm and call it good because my house will burn down.
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Yeah. When you say signals, like, what are some of the signals that, that, that people have when they have anxiety?
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If, if you put your head down on your pillow and your brain takes off and starts racing, if you snap awake at 2:42 every morning or at 5:15 every morning and your eyes are wide open and your heart's racing, if people slowly stop wanting to be around you because you're an electric presence, if you are walking around thinking if they would jest, and I don't care who they is and I don't care what jest is. But if you've distilled the world down in very simple cause and effects that you think you've got the answers, those are usually signs that your, that your body's trying to get your attention. If you think you have identified the reason the world is falling apart, if the world would just listen to you. If you think essential oils will cure cancer, like if you start coming up with these crazy. If you spend more time on conspiracy theories than on trying to be healthy and trying to do the next right thing for your relationships in your job, that's usually sign that your, your body's starting to implode on itself.
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Yeah, fam. I'm all about doing health resets. I'm on a health kick this year. I tried juice cleanses, cutting sugar completely, even intermittent fasting. But they didn't stick for me because they were just too hard to follow, too strict. And so I was on the hunt of a way to lose five pounds. Transparently, that's how I came across Prolon. So me and my boyfriend have been together for about a year and we gained some weight over the holidays. We're just like in love and eating too much, going out to eat and just like in this puppy love stage where we're gaining some weight and we both wanted to lose weight and Prolon is what I came across. It gives you a total reset and it prevents you from losing muscle mass. It's a five day nutrition program with plant based soups, snacks and beverages that keep your body in a fasting state while still nourishing you. And that's what helps support cellular rejuvenation and renewal. But the biggest thing for me is how easy it is. Everything is prepackaged and labeled day by day, which is great for somebody like me. So you know exactly what to eat, when to eat. No prep, no planning, no guesswork. It just puts you in the right fasting state so you can lose weight and reset your body. Are you ready to lose five pounds and for your own reset For a limited time, Prolon is offering young and profiting listeners 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift. Or when you subscribe to their five day program, just visit prolonlife.com profiting that's P R O L O N L I F.com/profiting to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. That's prolonlife.com profiting prolong life.com/profiting Yap Gang as Yap Media has grown, we've gotten more and more applicants for every role. Which sounds great, but in reality, most of them are not a fit. That's why we love using Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Sponsoring your jobs boosts it in the search results so the right candidates actually see your post. Instead of just getting more applicants, you get people who match the skills and experience that you're looking for. And get this, sponsored jobs are 95% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs, according to Indeed data. If you're hiring right now, don't leave it up to chance. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all of your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status that it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast. Again, that's Indeed.com podcast. Just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need to hire. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Yeah fam. Raise your hand if you've been putting off a doctor's appointment. Yeah, same. And for me it's even worse because I'm always traveling, bouncing around cities and so I don't really plan my healthcare weeks or months in advance. Most of the time I wake up and think I better go to the dentist and if I don't go right then and there in the next day or two, it can easily turn into months. That's exactly why I've been using Zocdoc for years. And honestly over 15 years now, it is the main way that I schedule my healthcare. ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality and network doctors so you can find somebody that you love. I just open it up, search what I need, see the real reviews, check availability and book an in person or video visit instantly. Most of the time that's same day. At this point, ZOC Doc is quite literally the way that I handle all of my healthcare needs. And I love that I get to see all the doctors that I visited and it's just saved in my profile and it's like my go to place to understand what are the doctors that I've seen in every city so that I could just go back to the same doctor so they have my information. So stop putting off these doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com profiting to find and instantly book a doctor that you love today. That's Zocdoc.com profiting Zocdoc.com profiting again, that's Zocdoc.com profitING and thanks to ZOC Talk for supporting this message. So I recently spoke with Dr. Caroline Leaf and she's a good buddy.
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I love her.
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A
Yeah, she's great.
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She's way, way, way smarter than me.
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Yeah, she was talking about how it's really dangerous to identify yourself with these mental health conditions. So like I have anxiety, I have adhd. And she thinks it's just a really dangerous trend that people are kind of latching on to these identities. And you also say something similar in your book. So talk to us about why it's not that healthy to kind of identify with certain disorders and maybe how that can make us more addicted to these disorders in itself.
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Yeah, I think it's a, it's a. Again, I keep talking about this the curses of our time, but the curse that's one of the chief curses of our time is that we're identified with our identity becomes these labels that we're given. You have anxiety, you have depression, you are depressed. It becomes the way we enter into every room and it becomes the lens by which we view the world. And we're told we're broken. And so if your house is on fire and your smoke detector is going off, nobody would say your house is broken, right? No one would say that. They would say, your house is working perfectly, it's on fire. And so I think it's. It's just changing the language. I love that he's an old psychiatrist. He's passed away many years ago. But Dr. Glasser, William Glasser, said he wouldn't let his patients say I have anxiety or I am anxious. He would make them say, I am anxiety or I'm depressing. I'm compulsioning. Right? My body is doing these things in an effort to take care of me. Let's get to the bottom of why my body thinks this, this environment I'm in isn't safe, this relationship I'm in isn't safe. This, this, this business I'm running isn't. Is. Isn't going to hold water. Right? That's a much healthier way to view the world instead of viewing ourselves with these labels that are the challenges we have. It's a silly way to do life, but. But also the other side of it is none of us, you. You and me, are not allowed to go to a party. And when someone says, hey, how's it going? We're not allowed to say, you know what, things are actually going really good. Are like, my romantic life is going well, my kids are healthy, my job's doing great. Because then we walk away and people go, ugh. The only way we're allowed to enter a room is to say, well, you know, times are tough, or do you see the tweets? Or, you know, what's happening with AI is going to take my business. So we're really fighting. We're not allowed to be people of peace or people of joy or people of optimism. We have to be people of pessimism and sarcasm. And that's just, that's the, that's the air we all breathe. And so we have to. We are stamped with labels that tell us what's wrong with us. And I just reject that wholeheartedly.
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A
Yeah, I totally agree. I definitely want to get into you with that. But I do want to ask you about medication because you brought it up earlier. And I had an ex boyfriend that was on antidepressants for like, 14 years. I didn't find out about it until, like, you know, six months into the relationship. He's, like, addicted to these antidepressants. He was a great guy, but he couldn't get off them. And when I asked him why he got on these antidepressants to begin with. It all happened because he didn't get a promotion once. This guy's like a brilliant guy, top executive at like a Fortune, Fortune 50 company. And it's because one time 14 years ago, when he first started his career, he didn't get a promotion. He was upset about it. And then his doctor put him on antidepressants and now he's been stuck on them. And so I always felt so sad for him because that just feels like everybody faces adversity. You've got to figure out how to get over it, you know, and build, build that like, mental resilience because you can't always be perfect. And now he's just addicted to this medication and can't get off it. So talk to us about how you feel about medication. And have you heard similar stories like this?
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B
Sure. So I've got a pretty nuanced view of it. I'll, I'll talk globally and then we'll get really specific. We've created the loneliest generation in human history ever. And we've also pathologized, we've made wrong or a problem to solve any uncomfortable feeling or any quote, unquote, bad feeling. And so I often would have students come into my office and say, I'm depressed. My dad just walked out on my mom and has a whole other life. He's, he's, he's had. And I would say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe you're struggling with depression right now, but what you just described to me is sadness. You're sad. We have no, we have no permission to be sad. We have no permission for grief. And, and the human biological being is not designed to experience grief by itself. That's why every major religion for all of human history has, has gatherings that take place. That's why they have this thing called confession. In some shape, form or fashion, it's been co opted into tell us the bad thing you did. That's not the origin of confession. The origin of confession is, oh man, you too. Like, here's what happened and that's all gone. And so when your friend found himself without the promotion, if you're, if you're a crush and killing an executive, you're not allowed to grieve. You're not allowed to say out loud, I really wanted this thing and it didn't happen. You're not allowed to say, I went all in and at this particular moment I wasn't good enough. Or I went all in and they picked somebody else. And so we don't have, like, when that happens, you're supposed to be sad. You're supposed to not want to get out of bed for a few days. You're supposed to just want to go eat junk food. Like, those things in and of itself are part of the human experience. And so, yes, it's easy to run to a doctor. You crank off a series of symptoms and they'll write you a script and you head out the door and they get your co pay and then they bill your insurance for as much as they can get, and your insurance fights them for all that. And in the meantime, you are duct taping over that uncomfortable feeling. And I think that's been a great tragedy. On the other side, I ignored anxiety for so long that my alarm system was dysregulated. It didn't work anymore. It was going off all the time. And so I'm also really open. That anxiety medication did not cure my anxiety. It did, however, turn the alarms down enough so that I could go talk to a professional, so that I could go sit with a group of guys who are also struggling and say, hey, guys, me too. And so I am a big believer in the right medication for the right moment. And I also think that Instagram all the, like, man, how often do we hear, that guy's a narcissist now. That guy's an idiot. He's a jerk, right? He's a complete and total, like, just scumbag. We've, we've, we've normalized these diagnostics as insults or discomfort. As I've got depression or, man, I'm really worried about the economy, so I have anxiety. And so we just use those words all the time there. If you have major depressive disorder, medication will save your life. If you are having a really ugly experience, a sad grieving moment, if a loved one passes away, if you, if your loved one cheats on you and leaves you, if you get passed over for something that was going to change your life professionally, if you're an entrepreneur and your business gets eaten up by AI or your neighbor's business or whatever. The thing is, I really want people to sit a, with a, with a community. And sometimes in these days and age, that's one other person or two other people. And then just give yourself permission to grieve and be sad for a while. And then if you're unable to do the next right thing, then medication can play an important role, but in and of itself doesn't quote, unquote, solve the problem. And I think that's the big thing. It helps to be a great bridge to get you from here to there. And so, man, if somebody needs anxiety medication for a season, that's awesome. But the research says that stuff works. If you do that and you do these other things and we have to be honest about exercise is really powerful. Sunlight and community and friends and laughter are really powerful. Journaling is incredibly powerful. Like these things that are not quick fixes but do have life altering benefits to them. I much rather see somebody start there, especially if they're under the care of a good counselor, a good therapist who's walking alongside you. There's a whole other side to this. That same medicalization of every uncomfortable feeling, especially in the entrepreneur space, is how we've landed with the madhouse amounts of entrepreneurs who are taking Adderall, Ritalin, right, that are finding themselves at capacity biologically. Like, you gotta sleep, you gotta go hang out with people. You can't work on your business 24, 7, 365 for 14 years, your body will say, I quit. And so when you start taking amphetamines to amp you up and you're taking speed all day just to get through the next thing, it will help you, no question about it. And it will cost you everything on the back end. And so when, if you spend your a lot of time around folks who struggle with various forms of addiction, whether it's alcohol or Adderall or sex, whatever it is, the dirty secret is those things really work. They're amazing until they take everything from you. And so it's being able to forego the short term benefit of, yeah, it really helps. I got to do this thing and now I get to do this thing with, hey, that's going to cost you everything in the end. And so let's get to the bottom of why you're struggling, get to the bottom of capacity and let's build a life over the next 10 or 20 or 30 years that's sustainable.
- [34:55]
A
Yeah. So let's dig deeper on that. I know you talk about becoming a safe person, living a peaceful life. I'm assuming that's what you're talking about when you're saying like, hey, like you can't just be like, work, work, work, work, work. You also have to build in some balance. Can you talk to us about what it means to be a safe person in that regard?
- [35:14]
B
I guess the best example I can give you is just a personal one from my life. My show took off. So like, you have to understand, like for 20 years I was in Education and in universities, I was a nerd. And so suddenly I didn't have social media or anything when I started doing this. And then all of a sudden it took out, took off out from under me, right in this wild way. And suddenly I'm all over the place. My big dirty secret after having a top five mental health and wellness show was, and it was mostly on parenting and relationships, is my own little daughter wouldn't hug me. She wouldn't be in my presence. I made her unsafe. I made her feel unsafe. And I remember going in to hug my daughter when she was probably five or six and she was like, no, she ran off and I just started crying. I was sitting at the kitchen table and my wife, who was Dr. DeLoney long before me, she's way smarter than me. She said, has it. Have you ever considered that her little tiny body, her tiny little 5 or 6 year old body has identified you as not safe? And I got pretty upset and I said, I don't yell, I don't hit anybody. I don't swear in front of these kids like, I'm a good dad. And she goes, no, no, no, no. You're the best dad I've ever seen. And you have a nuclear reactor in your chest and we can all feel it. And that was what ultimately drove me to see a therapist here in Nashville. And I sat down on her on her couch and I was like, all right, here we go. And it was six or seven months of really gnarly work. And I ended up telling my wife stuff that happened to me when I was a kid that I had never told a single soul on the planet. And I'll never forget, months after that, wrestling around with my son. And my daughter came, and she's always the protector. She'll come in just swinging like a hurricane. She's awesome. But I remember the words coming out of my mouth, Josephine, get off me. And then I stopped for a second because I had never said that sentence before. And I was like, no, no, no, no, don't get off, don't get off. Let's just keep. But now I can't keep her off of me. I'm a human jungle gym for her. And so what I had identified in her as she won't, she can't, she doesn't. I realized, dude, it was me. And what I want all entrepreneurs to know, if you will switch your metric from I got a crush, crush, crush every second of every minute of every day to I will become the most sturdy, peaceful presence in every room I walk into which means my personal finances are okay, my personal health is okay, my personal relationships are okay, my spiritual life, whatever that looks like is okay. Your ability to work, your ability to earn will be so much greater than being a kinetic, always on the go presence. And so, yeah, for me, it is. I am solving for peace. People gave me such grief on online. When I paid off my mortgage, that was at 2.7% and mathematically they were right. I could have made 5% in a high yield savings account. But very few people know what it's like to put your head on your pillow and know that nobody can take your house away from you. And that extra edge of peace sends me into the next business meeting. And the guy says who I'm. Who I'm negotiating with, says, I want this. And I can smile and go, I don't need that because I don't have a house payment. And then they go, all right, we'll make this deal right. It changes every fiber of your being. So yeah, for me and my family, I don't solve for ROI anymore. I solve for peace and I solve for. And I work more now than I have ever worked ever. And I'm busier than I've ever been. But the return on that is infinitely greater.
- [38:50]
A
Is getting to this piece related to your six daily choices?
- [38:54]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that was really taking all the neuroscience and all the nerd stuff and then my own experience both coaching. I'm not, I mean, walking alongside people for two decades and my own experience and saying if I could distill this all down to make it very simple, what are the six of six places I would start to build a non anxious life?
- [39:12]
A
Yeah, let's go through them quick fire style. But first, talk to us about like the biology of your body when you're a safe person and a peaceful person and a non anxious person versus when you're an anxious person. And then we'll go through the.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah, I mean the, the biology is if you are constantly cranking through adrenaline all day, every day, right? And we don't have to get too nerdy, but if you are constantly in fight or flight, onto the next deal, onto the next thing, gotta get up, crush it, go. Like your body can do that for a while. Those chemicals were designed for very tiny short bursts to keep you from not dying. They were not designed to keep you alive. Here's the best example I can give you. If you pour Drano down your sink because there's a clog, if you do that once every four or five Years, it'll eat that clog and it will open up your drain. If you wake up every day and just dump Draino down your drain, it will eat through all of your pipes in your house. And so it's not designed to be the lifeblood that flows through your plumbing system all the time. And so same with these stress hormones, they're not designed to be the your operating strategy. And then when you run out of those, when you move on to four energy drinks a day and Adderall and maybe a little cocaine. And like when you start buzzing through all these things to keep you going, going, going, the crash just gets bigger and bigger. And I promise everyone listening, that crash will come.
- [40:36]
A
Okay, so we want to avoid the crash. We want to live by your six daily choices. So I'm going to rattle each one off and then you give me like a 30 second summary and then we'll do like follow ups on specific ones. So let's do choose reality.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, essentially choosing reality. Our whole world is based on avoiding reality. Like, I'll pay that off later. Our marriage is fine. That's just how teenagers are. I can eat this now and it'll be fine. I don't have to exercise. I'll just take this pill. Like, everything is about avoiding reality. The problem is your body is always solving for reality. Your body knows that you're lonely and it would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing you don't have anyone to call in the middle of the night if you need something. Your body would be failing you if your romantic partner walked through the front door. Your body knows y' all are 6,000 miles apart from each other even though you're both sitting on the same couch. You're just both scrolling Instagram on your own devices. Right? Your body would be failing you if you owe money to investors and you owe money to a mortgage and you owe money on a depreciating asset, which is a stupidest thing you can borrow money on, which is a car. It would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing that one wrong turn in the economy and you, they take your house, they take your job, they take your food. Your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night. And so when I say choose reality, there's something powerful and harrowing for most people to pull out a yellow pad, not an Excel sheet. Pull out a yellow pad and write down, who do I owe money to? What is the state of my romantic relationships? Write down two, three, five, seven friends that I could call at 2am that would show up at my house and say I got you. You. If you don't have that, then that's where you're going to start. You got to choose reality with how safe is your body?
- [42:25]
A
So good. Okay. Choose connection.
- [42:29]
B
Yeah. It goes back to we've just created the loneliest generation ever. And I just said, I mean your body would be failing. You think back to, you know, 10,000 years ago if you woke up on the plains of Kansas and your tribe had left you and you're just all by yourself, you're gonna die, you're gonna get, you're gonna eaten by something. You'll die of exposure, die of starvation or whatever. And so we've got built in biological mechanisms designed to keep us together and we have outsourced all of those to these digital boxes. And so we are, we have like 2 mile long text threads from old high school friends that are mostly emojis and funny memes. And we have a whole bunch of networks and we have zoom conferences with our, our mastermind groups. Right. We like whether we want to believe it or not. Dude, I had a great conversation last night. Great conversation with chat GPT on. I was trying to work through two different therapeutic modalities and I kept thinking I was on to something. Chad GPT and I had a great conversation. The problem is my body knows that's not connection. That's just transferring information. And so communication is not connection. There's got to be in person. I know that person. I'm seen by that person. That person knows all my warts and they're going to still love me anyway. And then we can go exhale. And now I'm going to go do, do life well, like rambunctiously. Right. Only then can I do that. But if you are lonely, if you don't have four or five people, two or three people you can call, your body's going to sound every alarm it has because you're not safe.
- [44:04]
A
Yeah. That is such a huge problem. I feel like for our world right now, it feels like it's getting better. Like times was worse. Like it feels like it's getting better. I have to say.
- [44:14]
B
But there is a, there is a beautiful rejection happening where. More. My son is 15 and I'm watching his friends like walk, they walk into our house and, and people say I'm a Luddite and that's fine. Like I'm live in a cave. But they walk into the house and they all drop their phones in a basket and like, that's just one of the rules of our house is I don't give. Like teenagers. I want them to hang out with each other. And it is. Our house has almost become a drug for young people. They'll all pile into the house, drop their phones, and then they go do silly, ridiculous teenager things. And I don't like all the things they're doing, but they're having human experiences and they're literally. Their body craves it. And so I get texts and phone calls from parents saying, thank you for doing that, for holding the line on those phones. So it's. It's happening. But I think it's because it just feels better to be with somebody than to be scrolling and have all these. These. What I would call pseudo relationships. These digital relationships.
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. Okay, next one. Choose freedom.
- [45:17]
B
Yeah. That goes back to asking yourself the hard question, who owns you? And I don't care who you are or how sophisticated your math is. If you owe somebody money, especially a bank or an investor, they decide what you're going to do tomorrow. Not you. If you don't owe anybody anything, then you can walk away from an abusive relationship. You can walk away from a scumbag who's yelling in your face or screaming at you. You can move to go help an aging or ailing sick parent. But if you owe somebody, they decide what you're going to do tomorrow. Not you. And we don't have a psychology for that in our country. It's just. It just seems madness to think that way. And that's where, like, for me and my house, we're going to solve for peace and we're going to solve for freedom. I don't. I want to be owned by as few people as possible. And then they're also, additionally to that, choose freedom. And we can kind of nerd out in the book a little bit, but clutter. We're not designed for all of the crap we have. It's just, It's. We're not designed for. We're not designed for all the noise that we have. And there's just some very clear. We have so much stuff, so much information, so much data. Data is the new. Is a new Xanax. Right? Like, I just need to go have another cup of coffee. I just need to look at the numbers and get some more to. It's madness. It's madness. And so choosing freedom is about unhooking from all these other voices that are telling you what you have to be doing and then say, as for me, and as for My house. We're going to decide what the next step is. And the only way you can do that is the hard, ugly work of choosing freedom.
- [46:58]
A
Yeah, fam. Have you ever had a message you meant to reply to and then just didn't? It happens to the best of us. And in business, that adds up fast. Because when somebody is ready to talk, speed can secure the deal. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled quo the smarter way to run your business Communications I've seen this firsthand with my clients. Suddenly, a lot of our clients don't want slack or cool automations. They just want to text and get a fast response. They want to go back to basics. And if we don't make that easy for them, we become the bottleneck. So we decided to switch to quo. Now we use one shared business number. Every call and text goes to the whole team. Everybody sees the thread and anyone can respond and nothing gets lost. No bottlenecks? No. I'll get back to this later. Just fast, clean communication. How clients actually want it. It's a simple shift that removes one of the easiest ways to quietly lose revenue. Money is on the line. Yeah fam. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com profiting that's Q U O.com profiting quo.com profiting what's up yap gang? You know, starting a business sounds exciting until you realize that suddenly you're the marketer, designer, tech support and operations team all at once. And that can get overwhelming fast. And that's why for a lot of people, the hardest part isn't the idea. It's getting started. That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses worldwide and about 10% of all E commerce in the US from notable brands to people just starting out, it helps you do everything in one place. You can build a store with ready to use templates, use AI tools to write product descriptions and headlines, and run email and social campaigns without juggling a dozen platforms. It also handles payment, inventory, shipping and returns. And if you get stuck, there's 24. 7 support. So if you've been thinking, what if this idea could work? It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify Today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.comprofiting go to shopify.com profiting again. That's shopify.com profiting. Yap Gang I didn't really understand the importance of life insurance until I saw what it did for my family. When my dad passed, my dad had life insurance, and when he died, my mom was taken care of financially. And in an already difficult moment, that stability made a huge difference for us. It's something that I've never forgotten. That experience changed how I think about all of it. Life insurance isn't really about you. It's about the people that you leave behind. That's why I want to share. Fabric by Gerber Life Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy entrepreneurs and parents like you all. You could do it right from your couch and you could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. And it's designed so you can choose coverage that actually fits your family and your budget. Because being responsible isn't just about what you build in your lifetime. It's about what you leave protected. Join the thousands of entrepreneurs and parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes@meetfabric.com profiting that's meetfabric.com profiting and use my link so they know that I sent you. That's M E E T fabric F A b r I c.com profiting meet fabric.com profiting policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. I was always wondering like what is your connection to Ramsey Solutions? And like how do you fit into this bucket? And that like instantly snapped for me right now because part of living a peaceful non anxious life is making sure you don't owe anybody any money and living debt free and having financial freedom.
- [51:00]
B
I say, I mean the, the original way I stumbled into Dave was years ago. I didn't know who he was. I mean I knew he was just a guy that sold books and had a radio show. But I got sick of all these different people calling me every day saying you owe me, you owe me, you owe me. And I got sick of my wife and I made a great salary. She was a like a tenure track research professor. I was a senior leader at a university. We made a more money than our parents could have fathomed and we couldn't breathe. Couldn't breathe. And so I came to him out of, out of a series of desperation. And then as I got into the biology of how anxiety works, it's like, oh yeah, your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night. If you're not financially Independent if you're not on your own. And that. Hey, here's what, here's the reality of that. We don't talk about this enough. I was a dean of students at a law school, and the truck I drove was $3,000. My colleagues laughed at me, my students would laugh at me, and it was laughable. The car I drove was ridiculous. My wife was a fancy pants, nationally renowned researcher in her little nerd segment that she studied, and she drove a used Corolla. Like, we lived in a tiny, tiny house. I remember our mortgage person was one of the woman who did our mortgage at the bank, was one of my wife's college roommates. And she laughed and she's like, what are y' all doing? And I was like, hey, I would rather live in a much smaller house in this side of town and get this stupid thing paid off than have this bank always owe me own me just for the sake of having a spare bedroom that very few people ever wandered into. Right. It was just a trade I made. I meant we had to go to the park sometimes and instead of having our own park in our backyard that we couldn't afford, but. And by the way, then we ran into other people and then we met their dogs and then we ended up with dinner parties and we ended up having a whole richer life because of that. But we've just created our own cruise ship inside of our own little encapsulated life and we can't afford it and our bodies are screaming at US 24 7, 365. And so, yeah, I mean, it's not pretty. It took 15 years for us to get there, by the way. It didn't happen overnight, but it was just chipping away at it and chipping away at it and chipping away at it. And I tell you what, man, I struggled to get to 10 o' clock before I fall asleep most days. So it's just after being on Ambien for years. And so it's just a, it's a, it's a. It's a blessing.
- [53:30]
A
Yeah. And this, this ties into Choosing Health.
- [53:34]
B
We've just gotten so stupid. Like, we're just dumb. And I say that like I'm. This is the pot talking to the kettle here. If you don't sleep and you're not a good. It's, it's. We treat our cars better than our bodies. We do. We change the oil, we get the cars washed and clean. We vacuum them out. We take care of them. We just don't take care of our bodies. Very well. And then we. And by the way, I struggle. I've struggled with disorder eating my whole life with body dysmorphia. I go the other way. I work out too much. I'm too restrictive with what I eat. So it's not even about obesity. It's just about this idea that we can just ignore our bodies one way or the other and that still accomplish what we want to accomplish, be the husbands and wives and fathers and community members and citizens that we need to be. And we can't. You can't get mad at your car for breaking down if you don't take care of it. And the same thing applies to our bodies. And so probably the most common questions I get on my show revolve around sexual dysfunction, revolve around young men and ed. Young men and pornography addiction, young men and social media addiction, young men and just rage and anger. And we live in a little sliver of history where there's doctors that'll talk to you. You can go see somebody. It's just. It's. The new courage is choosing health, choosing peace, and saying, okay, I'm in a lot of pain or my body's not working like I want it to or like it should be at this age. I'm going to go talk to somebody, and that appointment will be awkward. My wife always rolls her eyes and she's like, you don't know awkward appointments, John. But those are going to be awkward. And I'm going to go choose health on the other side of that so that I can show up for who I want to be in my life and in my business.
- [55:17]
A
Yeah, I'm going to ask this question because I don't think it will fit naturally anywhere else. But I know that you often talk about sex shaming and people not really being able to talk about sex and how it's ruining relationships and things like that. Talk to us about, you know, what's going on there.
- [55:33]
B
I'm wrestling with a hypothesis. Is it okay if I just throw it out here? Yeah, I think we overuse the word need a lot when it comes to relationships. And when I say to my wife, I need this, I need this, what I'm doing is I am. I've got a cinder block that I'm holding and I'm handing it to her and say, it's your responsibility to make me feel X, Y, or Z with whatever that is. The truth underneath that question is really, here's what I want. And very few people can answer the question, hey, what do you want? Like if you want $10 million, if that's your answer, okay, what is that going to get you time? Is it going to get you freedom? Is it going to get you laughter? Is it going to get you opportunity to go fishing? More like, what do you want? And in the bedroom, what do you want and what do you want to try? What do you think would be fun? Where is play? Where is joy? Where is laughter? And our culture so idolizes sex that every encounter has to be the super bowl and fireworks. I think it's the great Esther Perel that says most of the time, most meals are like, you open the fridge and see what's in there, right? And we somehow say, well, then that's bad when it comes to sex, when that's bad when it comes to intimacy. Sometimes you just make out and fall asleep. Sometimes you got nine minutes and like, are you in? I'm it, right? Yet they all have to be this big, extravagant. I think that's this performative side of things. And so if I can't talk to the person that I've made humans with, my wife and I have created people together. If we can't talk about our money, if we can't talk about, hey, I have a dream for X, Y, or Z, I have a picture of what our life could look like. If I can't talk about sex with her, then my relationship is not nearly as strong as I want to believe it is. And so I think it's a. Getting the courage to ask myself, hey, what do I want? And why do I want those things? And then having the courage to look at somebody that I care about and say, hey, I'm putting this on the table. And that requires people to choose curiosity over judgment. Right? To ask the question, wow, why do you want that? Versus that's sick or you're gross, there's something wrong. Let's. Let's engage in a playful, thoughtful, deep conversation that's curious based instead of judgment based. And then we can begin to explore some of these things. And it really takes all of the drama out of sex. It really does.
- [58:07]
A
Yeah. Okay, let's go through the last two. So choose mindfulness and choose belief.
- [58:14]
B
Choosing mindfulness, a mindful has just turned into this whole. It's a whole thing. Michael Easter has written about it. If you haven't had him on your show, you should. He's. He wrote. He's the. He's the best. One of the greatest guys behind closed doors you could find. He just wrote a great piece on mindfulness. Here's here's how I'll describe it. It's not an old man on a cloud with essential oils. It's mindfulness is simply the gap between stimulus and response. What just happened and what are you going to do next? Ryan Holiday talks a lot about that in his world. Like this just happened. What are you going to do? And that is a thing. You practice extending that space between that guy just cut you off in traffic, you just got a bad report, your ex boyfriend just got passed over for the, for the promotion. What are you going to do next? And I, it never occurred to me that my reactivity was a thing I could practice and that a thing I had control over over time. And so being mindful is exhaling. One of my former students, a great friend of mine, Jefferson Fisher, says, go first, lead with your breath, right? Like so this thing just happened. Instead of speaking, instead of reacting, I'm going to exhale and then say, okay, what am I going to do now? That's mindfulness, right? And the last one was choose belief. This has become unpopular to talk about, although strangely there's been a wild resurgence over the last two or three years. For all of human history, people walked out of their caves or out of their tents and they looked up to the sky and said, dear God or dear gods or dear whatever, please reign or my family's going to die. And in the last century or so, we've been able to run water into every room in our house. We've been able to push a button and some little guy in skinny jeans will roll up here with a sandwich and say, here you go, sir. Right? We've gotten so arrogant about our role in the cosmos and we are biologically wired for belief. And even the great David Foster Wallace, who's an atheist, he's openly, he wrote about every act, every person worships something. And so if you don't regularly take a knee to something bigger than you, my family and I are Christian. I'm not even gonna, I'm not gonna even tell everybody, that's what you got to do. But you gotta take a knee to something bigger than you and say, please help. And if you don't do that on a regular basis, your body cannot carry the weight of the cosmos, it can't carry the weight of the self. We are self actualized and we're finding out the self can't hold, right? And so you have to submit to something bigger than you. And if you can't do that, here's my promise to you. You will find yourself in Submission at some point, whether it's in an AA group, whether it's in divorce court, whether it's in a hospital, you will submit at some point. And so practice that on a day, daily basis, and it begins to minimize or push off those moments that you can't control.
- [61:14]
A
Yeah. So I want to follow up on choose belief. So you called out how churches sometimes weaponize scripture. Like, be anxious for nothing against people in pain.
- [61:24]
B
I'll abuse it like crazy.
- [61:26]
A
Talk to us about that.
- [61:28]
B
I think people have always used scripture and faith and their version of God to try to control people. I think that's always been that way. And the way I look at it is you can drink too much water to the point that it'll kill you. And that doesn't mean water is a bad thing. That means that application of drinking water was not the right dose. Right. It was not the right application for it. And so, yeah, man, it's backing all the way out and saying, if this person is giving me wisdom and they're walking alongside me. And when it comes to people weaponizing scripture, the fruits of the spirit, what are the fruits on that tree? Is that person patient? Is that person kind? Is that person joyful? If they're not, then that tree isn't bearing fruit. And so if people are beating you over the head with that type of messaging, then it's. It's usually not from the core. Central teaching.
- [62:21]
A
Mm. Before you were bringing up the fact that we need to have like a decluttered environment. And I kind of want to circle back to just some, like, more general things that we need to be aware of. So you talked about decluttering our environment. Why is that so important to kind of just like simplify our life if we want to live a non anxious life?
- [62:40]
B
Okay, so can I tell you, like, this is a silly thing that happened to me?
- [62:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [62:45]
B
There's a great friend of mine, her name's Dawn Madsen, and she has a YouTube channel called the Minimal Mom. She's brilliant, very kind and wonderful. So we were talking and she. She said this. She said, john, every object in your home is having a conversation with you all the time. And I was like, that's the stupidest woo woo thing I've ever like. I laughed, she laughed. And I was like, whatever. So I got home from that trip and I walked into my, into my house and in the, in the basement, I've created like a little. I don't call it a man cave, but it's kind of where my wife has said, this is where all your chaos can live. It's where all my hunting stuff is. All my guitars are, all my books are everything. And so I just stood there quietly, and I was like, okay, start talking things. And then I sat there, and then I sat there, and then I started pretending. And then I got all choked up after about 30 minutes because if I listen carefully, those guitars were saying, are you just not going to play me anymore? Remember when you were cool? Remember when you had dreams? Remember when you wrote songs and the. The hunting gear was like, does this make you feel tough? Is this. Is this what this is? And the books on the shelf are like, hey, are you never going to read us? You're just going to be stupid forever? Or, hey, you've already read us. Are we up here just so in case somebody comes over? They'll think you're smart? And then I went upstairs and I got kind of. I was kind of getting heavy. And then the dishes in the sink were like, you're just going to walk by. You're going to be that husband that doesn't help out around the house. And I started realizing everything in my house is trying to talk to me. The clothes. Oh, are you ever going to get back in shape so you can wear us again? Are you just going to keep us in here for decoration while there's people on in your neighborhood that don't have enough clothes? Like, everything was barking at me all the time. And that started a profound conversation with me and my wife and some of my closer friends about, I don't need all this stuff. And I'm letting this stuff try to tell my story about what I'm worth and what value I have. And I have imaginary conversations with this stuff, and it talks back. I have stuff in my house that's supposed to tell the world when they come visit. Here's who this guy is. And instead of letting my kindness and my hospitality and my generosity speak for me, I was trying to get that bookshelf to speak for me and that whatever. So it was a powerful, powerful, humbling experience of how much I had outsourced my. The same way we talked about earlier, we outsource our net worth to our mental health diagnostics. I was also meant. I was outsourcing my worth to what brand guitar I had on the wall and what bow and arrow I had on the wall and what books I have at my house and what clothes I have on. And I realized how hollow and shallow that is. I've never. I spent most of my career in working with crisis stuff. I've never met with somebody who just lost a child and they said, hey, you want to go look at the car out front? I've never sat with somebody who just lost a parent. And they were like, yeah, but, man, you should see their 401k. I've never heard that.
- [65:42]
A
Yeah.
- [65:43]
B
I have heard people say, I would give away everything for five more minutes just so I can say what that one thing I need to say. I've heard that.
- [65:48]
A
Yeah.
- [65:49]
B
And so it was just a reframe of. If you were surrounded by all these voices all the time, your body will sound every alarm it has. And so it's just beginning to declutter that nonsense and get out of your head.
- [66:01]
A
Mm. It feels like that. Choose reality. Part of your six choices, like choosing reality is like mental, right? Like taking like, a mental inventory of everything going on and all the things that are talking to you. And then you also need to look at your physical environment and. And kind of try to declutter that as well. That's. At least that's what I think of when you. When you were explaining.
- [66:21]
B
Yeah, that's the. I think that, to me, is the doctor Amons talked about the failure of distilling the human experience down into symptom clusters that we're going to look back in 100 years and be ashamed of ourselves at how we pathologize the human experience. We give everybody a label. I also want to add to that. I think this is my community, the mental health community has failed dramatically. Telling people that mental and emotional health is getting all the right thoughts in the right order. That's false. You have to go take action. You have to go do things. Your physical environment matters, your relationships matter, your financial situation. I went through all of grad school, two PhDs. I have zero classes, none on the effects of financial stress and human flourishing. I never had that course. I didn't even have a class on that, much less a course on that. And then to see, in my work with Dave Ramsey, to see the impact owing people money has on your relationships, on your soul, on your mental and emotional health. It's. It's a huge miss. And so, yes, part of being well is writing things down and getting them out of your head. The. The mental thought, the thinking part of it, but a huge part of it is your relationships and your actions. What are you gonna go do?
- [67:40]
A
I wanna close out this interview talking about relationships. Right. Connection and all these great ideas that you have about connection. So let's start with you're you're talking about ChatGPT and I talk to ChatGPT all the time. It's like my assistant, I stopped going to my therapist and I talked to Chat GPT as my therapist now. And I actually think it's more effective personally. But you were mentioning how you don't feel like, like your body knows it's not a real relationship. So talk to us about like what you like, your vision of AI and how it's going to impact our relationships and connection.
- [68:14]
B
I mean it one since the overlords are listening. I love AI. It's the best. I think a conversation with Chat GBT is emotional pornography. It, look, you can see it and you can experience it, but it is different than being with somebody in a room with the door shut and that awkwardness and the temperatures and the feeling that that human connection you have. And so yes, and I think it's a challenge for mental health professionals to overcome. If mental health professionals have distilled down therapy into a series of advice transactions, then ChatGPT is going to take that job. I'll give you this, this, this is awesome. My therapist here in town, she's older than me by a decade or two. She's an oracle, very wise. And she said this one day and it was unmooring for me. She, I, I, I'm telling you, Holly, I think she golf clapped me. That's how I remember it. But I can't imagine a therapist golf clapping a client. Right?
- [69:19]
A
What does golf claphic mean?
- [69:20]
B
I don't just going like wow, with an answer. And she said, I've been wondering and I'm right, You, John, are smarter than me. And I started laughing and she started laughing and she goes, no, but seriously, you've read more than I've read. You have an answer for every question I have. And she said, so next time you come to come to therapy, we're going to sit and we're going to look at each other and we're going to breathe. And I started laughing and I said, well, since I'm so smart, I know that's not what therapy is. Therapy is talking back and forth. And she said, oh, John, you have an answer for everything, but you can't sit in my presence and be okay with you. And that is why at this point I am not concerned about ChatGPT taking over the human experience. It will give us some great answers. And I think mental health professionals have sold out to a degree to the right framework and the right six steps in the right. And here I am Writing a book with the six steps. Right. But like to what's the advice? Instead of. One of the most profound mental and emotional health moments of my life was when my wife was having her third miscarriage in as many months, I mean many years. And it was an ectopic pregnancy that ruptured and she was in emergency surgery to save her life. And a cowboy from west. I was in west Texas. A big tall 6 foot 3 cowboy walked in with his hat on and his boots and he sat next to me as a friend of mine. He said no words. We nodded to each other. I don't even know how he knew I was in this, in this 12 by 12 room all by myself in a hospital waiting room. He came and sat by me, said no words. And then when the doctor came in and said we lost the baby, but your wife's okay, I looked at him and he started crying tears that I didn't have yet. And that was the first time I was sitting by a guy who knew me, who loved me and was with me, not at me. And if you're with a therapist who is at you with their advice and their you need to's and the why don't haven't used. Chad GBT is going to do better than that all day long. Chad GBT can't sit with you. Chad GPT is not going to cry with you at your funeral. And so that's where you can get advice. Great. But will somebody just sit with you? And that's what we don't have as a culture anymore. And it took this buddy of mine who's a cowboy. And by the way, that's not the only experience. I've had friends who show up and just will say I'm here, I got an old casserole and a half bottle of wine and I'm, I'll, I'll sit with you until, until the sun comes up. That's the human experience. And entrepreneurs have, they've got their mastermind groups and their bros and they're like check in. But you have some guys that just come over and sit with you. If you don't have that, you gotta invest the time and the energy to get that. And by the way, you can't just, you can't put a classified ads for that or you can't like there's not an app for that. There's just showing up, showing up and showing up and showing up.
- [72:19]
A
Yeah, any, any like just advice for, for people in terms of like making more meaningful relationships that aren't transactional
- [72:29]
B
the two big ones, I'll tell you, is to have friends who do things that you don't do. That guy is a middle school English professor. He's a writing professor, a teacher, and he also is a children's author. One of my best friends on the planet is a banker. Literally. The guy who's the executor of my will is an executive at a bank. I work for Dave Ramsey. His whole job is selling people debt, and my whole job is telling people to not take on debt. Right? So. And he is my closest friend on the planet. Other close friend I have sells insurance. Another close friend I have works in H Vac. So when we get together, it's not this cyclone of, of recursive conversation about the same topics and the same ecosystems and the same articles. We sit down and have a drink, we sit down and watch the fights. We sit down and go hunting. We sit down and do whatever. And we're talking about different things so we can have a broad human experience. And so for young entrepreneurs, find people who do jobs that you don' don't do that are doing things with their life that is different than you that you disagree with. Find those people, because that's the key to a rich life. Don't just don't own a Mexican food restaurant and just only hang out with people who own Mexican food restaurants. You're gonna all end up making the same meal, right? And then if there's ever a shortage on queso, you're all going out of business. Learn how to make other things right. And that's number one. And the second one is go first and be awkward. Just invite people to a thing. And if you're an entrepreneur who's had a little bit of success, one of my rules now is I've been blessed over the last few years with the businesses that I'm a part of, have done well. It's been a good couple of years, won't be like this forever. But I'm in a little snapshot. So when I'm going to a punk rock show, I always buy one or two extra tickets and I invite a couple people to go with me. And if they don't pay me back, I don't ever ask to venmo me money. If they do awesome, that's great. But I'd much rather be 85 and have gone to a cool punk rock show with some buddies than to have gone be 85 and have gone to a show by myself that I didn't share that with because they didn't have 50 bucks. And so it is. Go first, be weird and just trust. If somebody can't do something, maybe they've got skills, stuff going on in their life and it does nothing to do with you. Have people over to your house, go do your weird things, go fishing, go bowling. I don't know what people do these days, but go do those things and get off the stupid screens and go have shared experiences in real life.
- [75:03]
A
Yeah.
- [75:04]
B
Instead of playing Fortnite, go play paintball. Instead of playing duck hunt on the computer. I don't know, that just showed how old I am. Go actual hunting. Right. Like go do stuff and you're more likely to get hurt. You're more likely to have your heart broke and you're more likely to be made fun of all that stuff. True. And you're also more likely to have a life worth having lived.
- [75:24]
A
Hmm. I gotta ask you this question before you go. So you've built this incredible brand. You are a creator entrepreneur. You've got an amazing podcast, you've got books, you've got, you know, millions of followers across IG and YouTube. A lot of people's dream right now is to become a creator entrepreneur like you and you like basically have owned this category or you're, you're a thought leader in the category of anxiety and mental health. Talk to us about, like, just, you know, some guidance of somebody who wants to become a creator entrepreneur to build a personal brand like you and who wants to kind of be dominant in a certain category. Walk them through that.
- [76:01]
B
Oof. How honest can I be? Can I be super honest?
- [76:03]
A
Honest? Come on.
- [76:05]
B
All right, all right. This. And you live in this world too. And so you'll know what I'm talking about. I think the great, the super challenge, the, the highest challenge of content creators is people trying to create content without truly knowing what they're talking about. And I came out of nowhere. And I know that like media wise, I had no int. My whole life was based around I don't want to be on the Internet. And now here I am, like, what an idiot. But it was 20 years of meeting with people behind closed doors and going to funeral homes and going to psych wards and sitting with people. That now allows me to have my show where I sit with hurting people. And a close buddy of mine, Lane Norton, who's like a PhD in nutrition, he's a world champion body. Like, he's, he called me after I wrote my first book and I had a little thing about nutrition in there and he said, hey, quick note you're wrong. You're incorrect. You got out over your skis on this one. And he's totally right. And so it was a commitment. From that point forward, I'm only going to talk about things that I know. And the. That's number one. So if you want to be a content creator in entrepreneurship, go start businesses, go do stuff so that you have true, real experiences. And I think the. I think the wisdom stool has three legs on it. One, have you done this thing? Two, do you have real. And I hate to say this, do you have real academic knowledge? Do you know what you're talking about? Most content creators in your and I world, you're in my world, they have an experience, and they want to tell everybody about that experience. And listen, the number of people who write into me and they're like, hey, I cheated on my wife nine times. But we decided to work it out, and now we have a course on how to be married. I'm like, dude, you're the last person that needs to tell people how to be married. Right? You have an experience. You started a business, right? That doesn't make you an expert in entrepreneurship. That makes you an expert on your one thing that you did. Awesome. Congratulations. If you want to tell people about your experience doing that, Fantastic. But until you've walked, started a bunch of businesses, or spent time with a whole bunch of business leaders and listen to them weep and listen to them win and still not be full and listen to them lose, then you have to know what you're talking about. And then the third one is, I think it really is helpful to have a lived experience. We've all had professors that teach you how to do real estate. And you're like, hey, why don't. Why don't you have real estate?
- [78:38]
A
Right?
- [78:38]
B
Like, you've never done this thing. And so having a lived experience helps. So that's. That's number one. Like, know what you're talking about. The other thing, this comes from my wife, and it's the single wisest piece of wisdom I received. I was at a university here in Nashville. It was my dream job. It was going to set our family up for life. And she comes from a house of school teachers, and my dad was a policeman, and then a minister and then back to being a policeman. So we had nothing, neither of us. I mean, we had everything we needed, but we did not come from stuff. And then I was like, hey, I'm going to quit all of this and partner up with Dave Ramsey and start being in media. And she's like, oh, geez. So here's the piece of wisdom she gave me. And it was so. It's proven so wise. She said, if you create an avatar, if you create some version, like, I'm going to be the funny guy or the bro guy or the. If you create some version of yourself, eventually that will run out of gas. The energy to keep up that Persona or that facade or that thing will exhaust you to the point that you're not able to keep it up. And then I responded with, yeah, I'm gonna just be me, bro. I'm gonna be me and authentic and whatever. I used all the nerd words. And then she looked at me, she said, hold on, though. You're weird. And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you're a Texan who's got a lot of tattoos. You have a counseling degree. You hunt and you drive a Prius, and you go to Sunday school, and you've been to Pantera shows, all, like, for years and years. Like, you're into heavy metal and punk rock music. She goes, you're a weird guy. And she said, you're gonna have to go all in on you. And if it doesn't work, you're gonna have to go to bed at night knowing America doesn't like me. And I just got. I got real quiet, and she looked at me, said, I'll always love you. Your kids like you, your friends like you, but you're gonna have to go to bed at night knowing they didn't like me. And that was the wisest piece of information. And so I just. On my shows, I dress like a dress, and I'm not polished, because I don't. That's not. I'm not a polished guy, and I don't hate anybody. And so everybody's welcome on my show. And I know that makes all different people uncomfortable, but that's just how I am in real life. Everyone's welcome at the Deloney House, and everyone knows that, right? And so you have to just double down on being fully you. And people meet me, and they meet Dave Ramsey. They're like, how are you guys friends? Right? Like, y' all are so different. But if you distill way, way, way, way down. We both want to help folks, and we're both people of the same faith. But if you distill it down, sometimes he thinks helping people would be to really get after them. And sometimes I think helping people would be to hug them. But that core, like, that's just. I'm going to Be as fully myself as I can be here. And if it works, awesome. And if it doesn't, I'm going to go to bed at night knowing I didn't, I didn't put out a false image of myself. And so know what you're talking about and don't be afraid to go. Be your full wacky, weird self. And then maybe, just maybe, it'll set off and work.
- [81:40]
A
Such good advice. And I have to say, like, I've interviewed a lot of people from Ramsey, Dave Ramsey, Ken Coleman, now you. I'm so happy that I had you on the show. And you guys all really do want to help people. Like, you guys just seem like you have such a great mission and business in general. And I just really love having you guys on the show.
- [81:59]
B
I appreciate it. It's the ethos of this company that and I have the luxury of seeing Dave at 2am with a ball cap on in the basement of a hotel. And I see how, how he tips people when there's no cameras on. And I see how he takes care of people in the hospital that never makes the new like. And so that's just the ethos of Dave. It's ethos of his company. You got to be about helping other people.
- [82:23]
A
This has been such an awesome interview. I enter my interview with two questions that I ask all of my guests. So the first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profits can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?
- [82:35]
B
Call a friend or a a person and say these words, hey, can we get together? I'm not doing okay. And then go tell the truth.
- [82:47]
A
Why do we need to be truth tellers if we want to live a peaceful life?
- [82:50]
B
When I used to teach graduate classes for therapists, I'd always tell them, rule number one, your clients will lie to you and they won't tell you the full picture. And I think we just don't have any place in our world where we can tell the truth. And if you go see a doctor, if you go see a therapist, if you have a close best friend, if you've got a spouse, you have to be able to say, here's the truth. And I think we're dying from that. I mean, we're gaslit on our news, we're gaslit on it. Just our whole culture is built around, look over here, look over here. And so being able to just call someone say, here's the truth, is a freeing, freeing, freeing thing.
- [83:28]
A
Okay, last question is, what is your secret to profiting to in life beyond just bank accounts.
- [83:33]
B
Oh, man. I. It goes back to if somebody asked me the question on my deathbed, what are you worth? I'm gonna tell them, I'm worth my wife, I'm worth my faith, and I'm worth these experiences I had with these buddies. And underneath that is that old. It's an old Zig Ziglar quote that Dave quotes around the office all the time. If you help enough people, money will. You'll never worry about money if you go help people. And so if your business, if you're entrepreneur, the business you're creating, if it profits on other people's losing, your business will fail, period. It's when. It's when Blockbuster put in their revenue line, late fees, when they started banking on their customers having penalties, that's the end of their business. And so if you're. If your business is about helping somebody have a better life, a more efficient life, a meeting, a need in their world, your business will do well. And so I want that question at the end, what are you worth to. To be relational? And then at the end of that, I want to be able to say I was about helping people and I didn't have to worry about money.
- [84:47]
A
John, this has been so great. Thank you for spending so much time with me. Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?
- [84:54]
B
I'm. I'm on the Internet at John Deloney the social stuff. And you can go to john deloney.com I guess, for the. For the other nerds. I'm terrible with the Internet, so Still don't fully know you.
- [85:06]
A
Come find me. We'll put all your links in your show.
- [85:08]
B
YouTube Dr. John DeLoney Show. You can find everywhere.
- [85:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. You've got an amazing podcast. Awesome. We'll stick all those links in the show notes. John, thank you again for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.
- [85:16]
B
Thank you for your hospitality. I'm really, really grateful.
- [85:20]
A
This conversation couldn't have come at a better time. What Dr. John DeLoney makes so clear is that anxiety is not always something to suppress or push through. For entrepreneurs, anxiety is often a signal, your body's way of telling you that something in your life or business feels unsafe, unsustainable, or out of alignment. And if you keep white knuckling your way through stress, eventually your body will force you to pay attention. So here's what I want you to do. Yap Gang, go to yap media.com mental wealth and open the safety audit worksheet. That's yap media.com mental wealth to get your safety audit worksheet. Then I want you to block 20 minutes on your calendar today. Not this weekend. Not someday. Today. Do it. Sit down with a pen. Write out the specific areas where your nervous system does not feel safe right now. Ask yourself where am I? Constantly on edge. What am I avoiding? What am I using to numb out what is draining me the most? And then choose one real action to take in the next 24 hours. You may want to text a friend and say I'm not doing great and I need to talk. You might move a non essential meeting off your calendar or set a hard stop for work tonight. Or delete an app that keeps you spiraling. Book your doctor's appointment, whatever it is. Go for a walk. Pick one thing that would make your body feel even 5% safer this week and just do it. Yap fam. And once you do that, notice what changes. Notice what happens to your body when you stop ignoring the signal and start responding to the signal instead. Because once you create a little more safety in your life, you can start to see the deeper mental patterns that have been driving your stress all along. Don't miss week three because we're diving into the inner critics and cognitive traps that hold high achievers. Back with performance psychology expert Sade Zare. So take the challenge. Yap fam. Do the worksheet. Yapmedia.com Mental wealth to download that and I'll see you in the next episode.