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Your Anxiety Toolkit - Practical Skills for Anxiety, Panic & Depression
461 How OCD Affects Relationships (And What Partners Need to Know)
00:45:04
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- [00:03]
Kimberly Quinlan
Welcome to youo Anxiety Toolkit. I'm your host, Kimberly Quinlan. This podcast is fueled by three main goals. The first goal is to provide you with some extra tools to help you manage your anxiety. Second goal, to inspire you. Anxiety doesn't get to decide how you live your life. And number three, and I leave the best for last, is to provide you with one big, fat virtual hug. Because experiencing anxiety ain't easy. If that sounds good to you, let's go.
- [00:37]
Today we are talking about how OCD affects relationships and what partners need to know. Today we have Christina all over on to discuss how to support the partners of people with OCD as they navigate recovery. Thank you so much, Christina, for being here.
- [00:56]
Christina Allover
Oh, thanks for having me, Kim.
- [00:58]
Kimberly Quinlan
This is exciting. I feel like so often, often a lot of my podcasts come from conversations with clients. And so often partners will come in and they just don't know what to say. They don't know how to act. They're struggling with their own experience of their partner having ocd. So I really wanted this to be not only just for the person with ocd, but for the partner so that they have some directions. So thank you for being here.
- [01:23]
Christina Allover
Opinions you could say or things to share.
- [01:27]
Kimberly Quinlan
Well, let's start there. Can you tell us a little bit about why you specifically are interested in this topic, in what your. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing?
- [01:37]
Christina Allover
Yeah, I mean, I've been pretty open about even. Even from my. About, like, in my show and all my socials that I have ocd, and I've really learned about this in later life. And I've recently got married this year in June. And my now husband, well, he also has ocd. So not only, like, I didn't know that I was living with Rocd as one of my manifestations, but then also to find out that my partner has ocd, it was just been an interesting dynamic to navigate. And the way Rocd shows up is also different. So, you know, interesting enough in doing the work and also supporting sometimes family or loved ones, you know, now here I am in a place where I'm in that position as well. Right. And also then my partner at times with me. So I just think it's been an interesting crossover. So it has a, you know, really been a special place in my heart for. For that.
- [02:23]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah. How lucky he is to have you as someone who's had the experience but also has clinical experience.
- [02:29]
Christina Allover
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest, I'm also lucky with him because I think in this situation, the relationship dynamic, I think is Also really important, like outside of a city, just how is the relationship? And I think that's a big piece of the puzzle as well. Like, I think we both know, right, Relationships are not just one dimensional. There's so many layers and complexities to them.
- [02:51]
Kimberly Quinlan
Right.
- [02:51]
Christina Allover
Like, is it a good, healthy one? Is that, do you have good communic, do you have healthy boundaries? You know, do you prioritize each other, do you communicate well? I mean, all of those areas can have a lot of other variables there that will impact the relationship. But then also on top of it, you layer the OCD component. Now you have this extra feature that you have to work through. Yeah. So I think it's, it's just to say it's, it's not extremely easy if you have other things going on. But I think if you slow down and start to think through it, you can, you know, find ways to navigate.
- [03:25]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah, I love that. So I kind of want to riff off of what you've just said because I think it's really important is I think that having a partner with OCD isn't just about you managing their ocd, it is actually building a healthy relationship underneath that. Right. Because if you have a lot of resent or anger or frustration, that's going to impact your ability to show up for them when they're struggling and so forth. So before we even get started, started because you mentioned this, like, what are some of the main criteria or like foundations we could say to having this relationship, especially when there is a mental health condition at play?
- [04:04]
Christina Allover
Well, if we're going to get into relationships generally, I mean, I'll say even like, personally, I used to be in some where I was not really a great. I didn't make great choices. So sometimes the dynamics were not always healthy. And in, in learning over time I've learned to recognize like, okay, wait a minute, I'm kind of the common denominator. I need to start changing what I'm looking for because I keep, I keep being drawn to the same strange experience. It's just not, not great. And what that does is you then already are not having a place that should, I think, be your safe zone where, you know, you can come and hear. You could just be really truly yourself, like truly yourself. And I mean vulnerable, open, almost like the little kid. And you can come out and you could just play and be unencumbered if you will. Right. And that's a very sacred, special place. But I think for a lot of us who've come from difficulties and challenges and Traumas and so on. You don't know that place, so you don't even know how to look for it. So I think that's a big piece. There is just first knowing where are you and what pieces do you need to internally also heal to start to choose a different kind of a relationship where then it really. I think what I've learned through my experience personally is that, you know, building something that really has a solid friendship foundation is so critical where you just like it's truly somebody you genuinely want to spend time with. You generally want to share, you want to talk, you can sit and be together for hours, you can laugh. Because end of the day, whatever happens in life, you know, that's your person. That's like your right hand person. So there's a quote I heard from somebody else years, I don't know, it's. I can't say it, but I love the way this woman said it. Basically she says this is like hiring for like a CEO position. This is the most important role, right? Like you better make sure you interview really, really well. And at first I laughed and I'm like. But she's kind of right, you know. And so as you become aware for yourself of what you need to adjust, then you either heal within that dynamic or if it's not healthy, then you have to find another one. But the foundational thing I think really that it comes down to is that friendship really at the core of it. And if you have that connection, then no matter what you're dealing and facing with life challenges, mental health, losses, I mean, people know I've been open about. My mom passed away. We were dealing with cancer for a while with her. There was so many things and like this was a person who just kept showing up and kept showing up in ways I didn't even expect or ask. And you know, that's what you, that's I think a foundational component because you're choosing somebody you're going to be facing in life with. And life as we all know it throws you things left and right, you can have the best plans and life has something else for you, you know. So I think relationally, yeah, that dynamic is critical because if you are something that's already unhealthy, that is going to create so much angst and already anxiety and insecurities and feeling that you can't really trust or settle. So you're already going to be so on edge and then on top of it, your OCD and whatever, however it manifests, I mean that's Going to be a really intense experience.
- [07:02]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that you shared all that. So I'd love to circle back to that here in a little bit. But before we do, let's talk a little bit about, in addition to those foundations, how do partners come often? Do they report to us in your experience? How do they feel when they have have somebody in their life with ocd? What are some of the challenges and struggles that they are experiencing?
- [07:28]
Christina Allover
You know, I think it's on a spectrum, to be honest, because I've seen myself, people who either are on the end of, hey, like, this is your thing to manage. I really don't want to deal with this all the way to completely almost like enmesh and in it and accommodating everything all the time, feeling guilty if they don't. But then. And if they do try to set something, then they get resentful. So I really do think it's a spectrum in terms of where a partner is. And so depending on where they are, I think those are the common things that I tend to hear. And I think it gets to a place where either a partner ends up feeling just kind of beat down and they're like, okay, fine, and they just give in, and. And then it just becomes like the new norm, if you will. Or I have folks where I also hear where they're on the side of, like, I love this person. I want to do this. But you could hear and see that there's this, like, compassion fatigue. Like, yeah, we talk about, you know, being kind. We talk about, you know, let's communicate better. I mean, these concepts are all great. It's not like people don't know them. But how do we do this? Right? And how do you do this when, you know, it's not personal, but it's hard to not take it personally when, when things erupt or, you know, you're asking, just please, just. Just tell me one more time. Just give me that reassurance one more time. Right? It's like you're sitting with. With these dynamics that as a partner, when you're receiving them and you're in this all the time, depending, you know, how kind of intense it is, it's tough because you really are being burnt out and you are tired and you are trying to be there for them and you're trying to have a conversation, and sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't quite land or something else is happening. So I think those are very real issues that people are facing. And I don't think it's as easy as just, okay, let's just not accommodate. I think it's. Yeah, I just think there's a lot of communication, honestly, that has to go into this and understanding and helping each other understand each other's perspectives. Right. So that you don't have people now getting overly defensive and suddenly just kind of in their corner. Because we want people that are supportive parts. Well, please understand the one with ocd, but guess what? The one with ocd, you have to also understand your partner. Like, this has to be a reciprocal. Both end. This is not where. Well, my thing is worse. It's like, guys, that's not even the conversation that we need to be having. The conversation is, you love each other and you care for each other, you want to be together and the relationship to keep growing. How can we work with this situation that's here before us? Because you'll be facing a lot of other things in life together. So let's figure out, how do we deal with when hard times come. Right, because hard times come, conflict comes. How do we work through those?
- [09:59]
Kimberly Quinlan
So let's sort of go there, like sitting down. We're face to face. We've acknowledged that there's a problem that OCD has somehow tried to seep into the relationship. What would you have a couple do? Or let's say it's even a mom and a child or. But in this case more often an intimate relationship. Like, how would you walk them through or walk them back into having that healthier relationship?
- [10:23]
Christina Allover
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I mean, I think part of it starts with both folks. I would want to hear from both of them kind of, what do you want out of those moments? Like, we all know these moments happen where it gets a little bit intense. What do each of you want? Because I think every person has to be able to express just again, unencumbered, unfiltered. Here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm wanting. The other thing that's important, which. This sounds simple, but we're not great at this. Even me in my personal life sometimes, which is have the patience to actually be quiet and really hear. Like, actually hear. You think you're listening, but you're not hearing, really hear what they're saying. Take a minute and take it in to really grasp what they're saying. Because if we slow that down and just do those two things, it really makes a difference. And then saying, okay, so. So I think what you're saying then is X. And then the other person can say yes. Okay, great. What do you think I'm saying? So until we get that, you really can't go anywhere. So these are like communication basics, one on one. So you've got to do that. Because I think sometimes I've seen either partners start to get defensive too fast, or the person with OCD takes something really personally, gets defensive. Okay, you guys stop hearing each other. We're not. We gotta slow down. So I think once we can do that, then you now can actually think of it like a team meeting, right? Like, now we can say, okay, let's set some parameters. Let's talk about some of the ground rules. What do you want to see? How do you want to do this? So it can be something as like, okay, when I see you, I can clearly see that you're having an OCD moment. But when I say something, you get mad at me and give me attitude or bark at me or blow up or whatever it is. Like, what do you want me to do? Because I'm frustrated, because I'm seeing it again. We covered it and here it is. Right? So you would want to be able to say that and be able to comfortably expressed like, yeah, I'm frustrated in that moment. And again, have the other person be able to really hear that slow down and say, okay, well, how about this? How about then maybe in that moment, don't maybe just say something like, oh, it's your OCD or whatnot, because that's not helpful. Or maybe the person might say, that is helpful, but maybe say it differently. Right? So that's where you now get to negotiate. Now you get to have some real movement. You can start to take some action and you can decide. And I, I'm a fan of. As humans, I don't think we do great when we're really stressed out. We don't do well holding a lot of stuff. Would you. Much better if you can have one, maybe two, three at the most, but one to two things you can actually do. So I always tell folks, pick one to two that you know you can remember and that's it. And then just, let's go try it out. So next time it happened, try it. Just see, we're not going to commit. It's not right. Just let's see. And then come back and let's see what happened. Because sometimes that works and we're great. Sometimes we need a little more. Okay, well, now we can figure that out. But through that process and slowing that down, that people can have this more, I think more useful conversations where you can actually come up with something. I'm even thinking of an example. In my own relationship, there was a moment exactly like this where, like, I am. I mean, my husband knows. He. In the very beginning, he said, gosh, I was so scared to tell you I have OCD when I saw that you were an OCD specialist and your whole podcast is an OCD whisper. And he's like, oh, my God. I'm like, oh, yeah, baby, I'm gonna like you. You can't. You can't get stuff. Asked me. So he was doing something with this front door, this whole locking, checking, checking. And I was frustrated because I'm a cocky about this. So here I am in exactly the same situation, even though you would think I should know better. But we're all human, right? And so the end, we had to sit down not at that moment, but 30 minutes later. That's the other thing I will say is timing, learning how to time things. So, and this is a hard one, because in that moment, if both of you are now kind of in that space of frustration, irritation, like, oh, something. It starts to feel like you want to get your point now and you want to be the one heard. You want to be the one. Understood? No, but me. And that's the whole point here, is realizing and recognizing and kind of learning to notice that feeling. I know the ego is going to be loud, and I'm. I want to be in the right, because that's human nature. We want to be right. We want to know that. I. But if you can just learn to recognize, that's what that is. It's a reaction and have that rule like, it's we. That's it. We just stop. At least for half an hour. At least. I don't care what you do. Go to separate rooms. Just do not engage. Give time, because you need the brain and the body to calm down. And so we did. And then we sit down. I said, hey. And this is where, you know, you bring that love back in. Remember, like, you chose this person for a reason. You love them, right? Like, you're on the same team. You're not against each other. Right? You got to remember that. So you say, hey, like, I'm with you. I love you. I'm not, like, literally, I said those words. I'm on your team. I'm not. I'm not against you, but I just want to know what can be more helpful. I'm not definitely don't want to ride you or make you feel like I'm picking something or calling Something out in the moment. But you know, from my end, like, it's just a little tough. Like, so what do I do? And what I got back is, well, you know. Yeah, when you say that, actually, it really does. Like, I don't like it. It just, it makes me feel like I'm being kind of nitpicked. Like, I know you know your stuff, whatever, but just, it doesn't feel great. He goes, if you can't, can you just like. He's like, and I know it's not great, but just let me finish my thing. Which is compulsion. I'm like, so let's say what it is. Okay, let's finish your compulsion. And then what? Well, and then afterwards he's like, you know, I'm open to like talking about it because I am internally making these changes. And maybe you don't see it fully yet, but I already was doing something different there. I'm like, oh, great, tell me. So now we're having a different conversation. And because of that, I now got some more insight of kind of what you're doing. And now I understand. So now I back up and now you have to do the other thing that's really hard for humans. Patience.
- [15:41]
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- [16:57]
Christina Allover
Big hugs.
- [16:58]
NOCD Sponsor Announcer
And now let's get back to the show.
- [17:00]
Christina Allover
We can teach it till the cows come home, but when you're in the moment, and in that moment, when whatever happens, happens, you can have all your knowledge and education, but this is one of those muscles you build through experience because patience is not easy. So now you have to be patient and take a breath yourself, pull back, let it be, go do something else. Let the person. And then you watch. And then what I Think is the last piece I'd say that's important is that when you're navigating in this way, it's important both people, not just one, but both, both that you are seeing changes. You're seeing the effort, and you're seeing that there is, in fact, some changes that are happening and we're moving in a direction so that now both of you can see that there's evolution, there's growth, and now you can have again, another conversation. And so through that, you both then start to learn how each other. How both of you work, right? You learn how you deal with. If there's that stressful moment, what you need to say, how you need to say it. So, like, the example I just gave, you know, it was. It was a direct conversation, but you could hear it even in my voice. It was with love, it was with kindness. It was even saying the words like, hey, like, I am in your corner, you know, I love you. So it's like, you know, hard conversations are hard to have, right? But if we, again, we have to slow down so that we can bring that love back in the room. People can say the word compassion. I think sometimes people get. Yeah, I don't know how people understand that word, but I think if I say love, maybe people will understand that a little bit better. That bring. Bring kindness and love back in because, you know, those. Those things are free for you to do. And you, again, you're with this person for a reason. So, you know, let's honor that love. Let's honor that kindness. Yeah. But reciprocal.
- [18:29]
Kimberly Quinlan
There's so many points that you've made that I was actually writing them down for those who are listening. Like, I thought, okay, I'll just put it in the show notes. Like, I think it's going to be. Those are so helpful, those tips. And I think when we're overwhelmed, I even know in our. My marriage if I'm overwhelmed. I almost had, like, a chip on my shoulder. Like, no, I'm overwhelmed. I'm. It's my, like, right to point out to you how you're creating frustration in me, right? Like, it's my, you know, my right as a woman or is my right as whatever. And it's so not helpful, Right? So I love that you pointed all of these steps and took us through all these steps. And I think the thing that I kept hearing that you can give me feedback of when there's a mental health struggle, even if it's not ocd, it might be depression or it might be health anxiety or it might be panic disorder or whatever it might be is I think it's really easy for the partners to feel like we're against each other now. Like it's me and my OCD versus my partner, or it's them and their ocd versus me or. And so forth. And I think that when we view it that way, it's so much easier to become defensive, whereas we have to sort of keep. You kept sort of reinforcing. Like, I'm with you, I've got you. Like, it's you and me. We're the main core team. Not. It's not you versus me. So I don't know what your thoughts are about that.
- [19:45]
Christina Allover
Oh, 100%. I mean, again, what you're saying and what we're talking about, these are skills that you learn over time, to be honest. Like, this is not stuff I was great at. What I'm sharing now is what I've grown into. I was. Or of all this stuff, especially younger and in other relationships that were not great. But what I've come to learn is like when you get angry because you're legitimately, you know, let's say, are having an argument, not mental health, just put all that aside. If you're just something happened, erupted, whatever, and you're mad at each other, right? What's the first thing that happens? The first thing is you. It's you. Right, Because I want to be right. Because my point, because you're not understanding me. So all that ego stuff comes online. It's strong. It's strong. And believe me, I have moments when we have arguments. That's the first place I default to because that's human nature. I think we do a disservice if we don't honor the human nature piece of us, which is, hey, this is just a natural knee. Gut reaction. But that we don't stop there. I think that's the thing is recognizing that will be step one of what happens and knowing yourself, you know, okay, I'm going to need a minute because I'm pissed. And. And I think it's all your fault. And. And you're going to be huffing and puffing right under your breath all the different rationalizations and justifications why it's all me. And you owe it to me and you did this. Da, da. But this is what I mean, time. And you got to calm down and then you're able to access the bigger picture and remember. Wait a minute. And so I think in learning, even with arguments how to argue better, it doesn't Mean you're going to not have disagreements or argue. But how can you argue better? How can you remember, like, okay, we're just upset right now. I'm mad at you and that's all it is. And I don't have to take it some other place. Right. And that allows you to open up a little bit. And that was time. You can come back and now you're more calm and then you can bring, bring this back in. So I think absolutely, whether it's ocd, whether it's just because you just happen to be in an argument, all of it has to. You have to come back to. Wait a minute. But I'm with this person for a reason. Like if. And I do want to highlight that, a healthy, loving relationship and you've been together for some time, like you've already learned, you know about each other. Got to bring that back in the room because it's too easy to forget in the mom. Because you're just so focused on the thing that's bothering you right then that you're forgetting the totality of the entire picture, the whole context. And you gotta ask yourself, like, does this person really, truly have ill intent towards me? Like, does this person really intentionally on purpose want to get out there and hurt me? Right. And I think those are some of the questions I've also learned along the way that I found really useful and that I hold for myself when things happen. And I also coach and teach other folks. Grab one or two of those questions that resonate for you so that you could just remind yourself, because we have to remind ourselves we're going to come out of that place so that then you can get back into. That's right, it's a we in an us. And ultimately I am here for you. I am on your side, just like you are on mine. I don't. And I even say things like I teach people to say even a phrase like, I don't believe you're out to get me. Like, I believe you're really here because you love and care for me. You're not trying to hurt me. But in this moment, the way you said X really kind of landed a certain way. That was funky. And maybe, I don't know, I'm going to assume you don't mean it, but this is what happens. So I think also learning to say words like that, right? But we're going to assume the better of our partner, right? And that goes both ways. Again, my friends, this is reciprocal because I often also hear sometimes people with OCD being Think, like, wanting to claim a little more like, no, it's more me because I have ocd. It's like, yes, honey, I get it. But listen, the other person also has to manage and deal with all the other things that are happening because of that. So it's still both people. You have to still be able to take both of you into account and. Yeah. And not kind of blow each other off or think one has more or less rights. I mean, depending on the argument. Sure. At one point, some person might be a little bit more on the right than the other. Sure. Yes, we agree with that. But. But again, if you're here to gather as a couple hood, you got to remember that couplehood is like its own entity that you want to honor and keep respect.
- [23:43]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah. Again, you bring so many points. I could. I wanted, like, every point I could make a whole episode on. I think that not keeping tallies is a really important piece here too, because I just know my brain, right. My brain often is like, and you did this and then you did this and then you did this. Then you've got all of these things in your list of things that they did. And it's. Let's say it's OCD related. Like, they're not getting better fast enough. And they did this compulsion, and they're not supposed to be doing this compulsion. And our therapist and her therapist or his therapist told them not to be doing that compulsion method. And then as the partner, we can get into this whole, like, list thing of, like, how they're not leveling up, which I get might even be true. But I know for me, and in my. Our marriage, I've had to catch myself and being like, Kimberly, your list making is only building a case for. Against your partner. And that's not what we want. You're not going in the direction that you want. So I just think that that's what you're talking about is while it might be true that they might be doing these things that are hurting you or are impacting your life, maybe it's making you late for an event or something. Be careful of sort of that list making tallying.
- [24:55]
Christina Allover
I learned this from somebody else. I think it was actually Tony Robbins. Funny enough, I took one of his seminars. But he calls it negative stacking, which is absolutely true, because when you start to negatively stack, the more you do that, the more you are creating a feeling.
- [25:08]
Kimberly Quinlan
And.
- [25:08]
Christina Allover
Right. Humans with thoughts and feelings that all connect. So if you're not creating this certain feeling, feeling, like you said, you're building this Gaze. But you're really building this feeling, and then it's going to get really hard to see past that feeling because the feeling starts to grow. And what happens, though, with that is, again, you're losing context of all the other times that the person has done well. And now if we go a little further, why is this so critical? Well, and I know you've had this in your episodes before, from the evolutionary standpoint, as humans, we are already organically very prone to paying too much attention to the negatives. Right. We all know this. Per one negative, I think, what, like 10, 15, 20. I forgot already the number. But positives, right? So if you think it from that standpoint as well, it's like, look, we're already kind of wired to pay attention to things that are off and wrong, and then you start to stack on top of it. Well, you're now creating a much bigger issue, and it's gonna. It's gonna turn into something far worse. And half the time, what happens is, the problem with that is you can miss what something is actually about. You can miss the main point. Right. Because you're too in your head now. And I think, again, it all comes back to that ego of wanting to be right. And I think if we can recognize that. And this almost gets into now, like, meditative, spiritual conversations, but part of it is learning how to see that for yourself. And you gotta drop the ego. You gotta surrender, let it. Let that puppy go and be like, look, I want to be wrong if I need to be wrong. Like, if I am wrong, it's fine. And. Or if I'm really, like, whatever I'm doing. But you have to get a place where you can drop this. This shield, this defensive mode of needing to be right or needing to prove something. Like, there's nothing to prove. There's just two souls trying to connect, ultimately.
- [26:43]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah.
- [26:43]
Christina Allover
Right. That's really what it comes down to.
- [26:45]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah. I once had a client whose partner had really severe ocd. I was coaching them on managing that for their own mental health. And what was really interesting is they were. You know, I think that we, as partners, we think that if we bring the negative to our partner's attention, that will encourage change. Like, if I just keep reminding them of how they're not doing what they were told to do, or they're not keeping up with their homework, or they're not following. If I just keep reminding them of how they're not doing it, that will propel them into change. And I remember speaking with them and going, okay, this Obviously isn't working. In fact, now it's not only not making their OCD better, but it's now impacting your relationship. Like, what would happen if you became a champion of them? Them and this person, this client? This was many, many years ago. They were like, but they don't deserve that yet. Oh, I think we all do this in some degrees that we feel like people have to deserve.
- [27:44]
Christina Allover
Well, it's like it's earned it, right? Like, it's like going to school. It's like, no, you can't get this thing until you do xyz. Yeah, you can't get your dessert, so you finish all the food at the dinner table. Yeah, I mean, this is the. I mean, I come from Ukraine, so, like, some of these concepts I get. Because, yeah, ultimately for us too, it's like, no, everything is like, no, you gotta keep working hard and, like, earn your stripes. And then, okay, now you. Now you get this thing. And I think, yeah, if you're doing this, in some cultures, it's seen as weak or there's a whole perception on it. Right. So you're also hitting on cultural dynamics that are really critical to attention relationships.
- [28:19]
Kimberly Quinlan
And so this was a huge dynamic shift of like, I want you to. As your homework, to go home and cheer them on and say, you've got this babe, and I believe in you. Instead of like, you know, pulling way almost like disciplining them, pulling away from them, instead going. And that was actually what helped. But I think in our relationships, when we are at odds and we are defensive, we don't cheer on our partner. We forget to do that. And I think that that's a really important piece of the work here. Now, what would you say for a partner of somebody, you know, who has OCD or any other condition? Like, instead of just cheering them on, and that's one way. How might you say set some limits with. When their compulsions are interfering with their life, you know, again, they're. Let's say they're stuck washing their hands or checking the door. It's making the whole family late over and over again, and it is impacting them. How would you encourage them to have those conversations?
- [29:15]
Christina Allover
Well, I think this goes back to what I said earlier, which is you have to have these discussions when you're calm and you're able to really hear each other. And this is part of that. Part of that is if depending on the situation, how. What's going on, how severe things are, because you have to create some parameters and ground rules because it's just not realistic to always accommodate and wait. Right? Just like we understand for you, it's, you know, you're working through it and, you know, you're. You're sometimes get stuck and it's tough. So, like, you know, everybody can acknowledge these dynamics. And I think the piece is that you, you know, you can have two things happening at the same time, and they're both important and they both require the attention. So what do you do with that? Right, when you have two opposing things, but at the same time, and they're equally val. Valuable. The only way, at least I've seen time and time again, is you have to then create again some sort of parameters that addresses both, which is, okay, we will wait for X time, but if I really see you're stuck and you don't want me to say anything because that annoys you or whatever it is, then we agree. Then I'm going to head out and go do what I need to do, and then we can talk about it afterwards, you know, then maybe after you sit down and say, okay, so that was kind of tough, what happened. Can you walk me through it? Or, you know, is there something else you need? The thing I would caution, there's always a fine line between role dynamics, right? Because you are with that partner. It's not like you're with your therapist all the time, right? It's not like you have somebody coaching in your ear. So you. We want a partner to help, but I also would say not to fall into the role where you're becoming the therapist or the coach, because that also is going to impact your relationship and your intimacy and your connection. Because now it's like, ugh, right? You're going to feel that feeling of, okay, man, now I got to be a caregiver, you know, in. In this interesting way. Again, it's a tough. It's a tough one. But I think. I think we gotta navigate those things of, you know, like you said, I. I am your cheerleader, and I'm here, I'm. I'm on your team. But we also have to be reasonable. So I think that's really what it comes down to. It's not. It's not a hard yes or no. I, I don't think anything is all or nothing. I think it's. It's. We have to keep finding that blending and those middle grounds and, and being. Balance is. Balance is dynamic. Balance is not static. So that means, you know, in this moment, balance might look like this, but in this next moment, it might look like that. So I think it calls on having that flexibility so that you can have these general kind of guidelines and generally know the direction you want to go. But then moment by moment, you'll see, because some moments will be great, some will not be so great. And that just requires patience and time. And if somebody's really to the point where it's. It's that severe and things are just really not progressing and it. It's impacting everybody, including the. The relationship, the connection. I think at that point, you got to have a conversation about, look, like, I miss you, I love you, the family does or what, or whatever's around, like, want to, but we can't seem to access you. Maybe we need to talk about more intensive treatments so that, you know, let. Let's get you the support and additional help you need so you can get a little better handle on this because, you know, well, we all want to be with you. Right. We want that connection. What you said earlier, too, I think that is really important to be a cheerleader. I. I think you're right that we, all of us, as humans, again, this is. We gotta give ourselves some grace for being human. But, yeah, I think a lot of us are raised by. With pointing out the things that aren't going well, and we don't do as good a job of pointing out when things are going great or just for the heck of it, give a compliment just because you can. You totally have that availability. Like, that is something you could do all the time, anytime, for free, completely. Right? So I think just starting to build that practice. I've certainly not been good at it, and I've been consciously, intentionally working on it to cultivate it to make sure. Intentionally to pause and randomly, for no reason, just shoot a text or if I see something, hey, this, hey, that, and keep kind of like a bucket that I keep filling. Right? So I think it's an important kind of stance, if you will, to start to take and build that muscle out. And we're not talking about being fake and Right. Just like, okay, I'll just be on this side. Oh, good job. Like, no, we're not saying that, but like a real genuine, like, yeah, I see you. Like, I see you. I love you. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, you're making an effort. Awesome. Or, man, that looked like that was tough. And I was about to, but I didn't. So, hey, I also did something great. Like, I didn't step in there and kind of jump in with my typical, oh, that's your OCD thing. Right? So I think we can bring a little levity and folks, right, can also kind of share moments that they're proud of. That, wow, I would have jumped in there and been all over you, but I didn't. I really kind of held back or wow, I saw that. You know, you typically would have been staring at the door for 20 minutes, but it looks like you only did it for 10. Awesome. Learning how to notice successes, big or small, and point those out as well.
- [33:51]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah. I want to go back to something you said before because I think it's really important. So you also said you don't want to be that caretaker, that that's not healthy either. Right. And what would advice would you give to someone who has found themselves in an overly caretaking role? You feel resentful, you feel angry. Maybe it's like you said, it's impacting intimacy. It's sort of, sort of this sort of more like a child parent role. What advice would you give to those folks are finding themselves in that position?
- [34:20]
Christina Allover
Well, I think the first thing I would want to know is let's go back earlier to think about how did you get into this position? Right. Because this happened probably not, because like there was not maybe awareness initially and thinking maybe you're helping. Right. And so I think being able to both, again, people have to pause and think about how do we end up here? And now get to a place of, okay, like I said in the very beginning, we're back to that, which is be able to really, when somebody speaks, really hear them, really hear what they're saying and go back to now getting a better understanding of how you got here. What about this isn't working because you're signaling to each other like, okay, but I really still want this. And the other person's like, well, I'm just getting burnt on, like I'm getting resentful. Right. I'm, I, I, I just, I'm hitting a place where, you know, if we're not really hearing each other, you're also in a position now where the relationship can start to really crumble and even fall apart. And I've, I've certainly seen that because of ocd, things completely end. So I'd say this is where we want to get back into healthier boundaries, get a better grasp of saying, like, I hear you, I get it. You feel like you need this and this is helpful. And I, I want to be helpful. I mean, remember, everything's being driven, I think, because we ultimately want to help the other person. You want to feel useful, but it doesn't feel great when you're trying to be useful, and yet it's not changing. It's getting worse, or they need a lot more of it. And now so much of it that now you're feeling exhausted and drained and resentful. So, you know, we all know with ocd, you. You give it a little pink, it'll take an arm. So I think is where we have to get better at learning how to be a little uncomfortable, which means saying, hey, I'm going to have to start to say no. And that's going to be a full sentence. And that means couple of things are going to happen. Maybe I, as the person saying no, might feel immense guilt about it. So now we have to make sure to help you figure this piece out and how to think of it differently. But now, so you, the one with ocd, need to be able to respect that and take it, because you can't keep kind of crossing that boundary either, right? So again, that's a. Both, and it's never just one way. So the person with OCD equally, I think, has to, you know, take ownership of their own pieces. And that means we're going to be a little uncomfortable here, and we're going to be okay with that. Discomfort is okay, you know, like, it's okay to not always be in roses and daisies and smiley faces, right? Like, it's okay to not always feel good. So that means having those hard conversations. And again, I don't think we do well with that as humans. I think sometimes that requires a person in the middle who can help you facilitate it. If, you know, if you get a little better with it, great. But it means having a hard conversation, doing it from a place of love, and being able to, again, with kindness, just say no. Or if another way is, you know, you come up and say, okay, we're going to agree that if you're going to ask me moving forward, I'll answer why, you know, once, maybe twice. Because sometimes, you know, it's not as clear as just one time. It's like sometimes the person is just please, one more time, okay, fine, I'll. I'll give it to you. No problem. But this will be the last time, right? So even something like that, I think is fair. And again, remember, we have to be reasonable from both sides, right? So that we can then get to another place. And then you have to kind of give a little time to heal from that so that you can find and reconnect and kind of what other ways. How else can we Connect and kind of re. Engage in fun and joy with each other. Because OCD also can take over so much so that the whole relationship becomes so OCD centric that you're like, do we even know how to do something else than this? Do we know how. What to do? Then accommodate? Like, how about, I don't know, let's play Uno. I don't. I don't even care at this point, just anything. Let's bring something else in. So we should do something else other than that, right? So that we bring those. Those moments of joy, connection, play.
- [37:59]
Kimberly Quinlan
Yeah. I remember my husband and I once we started couples therapy, and that was one of the first questions they asked. I'm a huge proponent of couples therapy. I feel like everyone should go. It just makes things so good. But one of the first questions they asked is like, what do you do with each other? And when we have kids and we have between us two or three businesses, and it's just so easy to be like, we eat dinner with the kids. Like, we. I don't know, we fold the laundry. But she was like. He was like, you need to have something you do that is just for you. And I think that when OCD is in the game, that's the first thing you lose. Right? That sounds good. You do.
- [38:36]
Christina Allover
So I think.
- [38:37]
Kimberly Quinlan
Think it's so important, again, to protect the marriage or the relationship or whatever it might be, even if this was a child in a parent environment, you know, is make sure there are things that you're doing that are simply just. Because I think is really important. And I love that you bring that up now. Is there anything that else. I mean, we could go on and on here, because I think this is so valuable, you know, on how to have a relationship in general. Right. This is so valuable. And I agree, like listening so hard, but you've got to do it. That was a big one for me, too, is to be able to listen and then say, what I heard you say was. That was really helpful for me because often I would misunderstand. My brain would create a story about what they were saying. So I would go, what I. What I heard you say was, is that true? And my husband would be like, no, that's not. That's not what I doubt. Let's do this again. And without defensiveness was so helpful. Is there anything that you feel like. Take couples, particularly couples who are struggling with one or both with ocd. Is there something that they can take with them as an important tool as they sort of navigate this process and bringing them back to love.
- [39:50]
Christina Allover
Honestly, the thing that really comes to mind is just slowing down because things really go very fast. And when OCD is up and if both of you have OCD and depends if like is your OCD different? Is it same, is it coming up at the same time? Is or is it one person but not the other? Because all those dynamics give you a whole different way you're going to respond. So I think though, if you slow down and this was definitely hard for me, but learning to slow down and first really check in with yourself and get right with yourself, get really clear, like what's actually happening, what am I, what do I really want out of this, you know? And again, to get there, you have to think clearly. To think clearly, you need a little time. If, if emotions are involved, I think it's okay to I'm end of sometimes even a 24 hour rule where hey, we're going to just sleep on it sometimes, even though I don't want to go to bed, like I don't like going to bed angry or, or something. So like you might even have an agreement. Okay. Even if we're not, let's say in a great moment. But well, at least like just put a hand on each other just to at least physically signal like hey, there's still love, right? Like I'm not ready to talk to you and. Or I don't know if there's some other issue but some way that could be small where at least you're still. Because oftentimes too I think think again, slowing down on time. And sometimes what happens is 24 hours you sleep on it, very literally wake up and your brain is a little refreshed. Suddenly you're able to look at things a little differently. You might see something and then you come back. And if you come back and it's still heated or let's say if it's in that situation, then you might need a lot more time. So there's a lot. I think it's very undervalued the discussion about timing and learning how to get better with your timing. I'm definitely not great at it, but I've been working at it. I've gotten better, but by no means am I, but I definitely see the difference. Even for myself when I'm able to really do that and do that well, it's a world of difference. How much better is the times where you just knee jerk react and then your ego gets in and that's it. Ah, so cultivating that. And the thing too is that this is all lifelong lessons. These are not. Like, I'm going to practice for six weeks, and now I magically have this incredible tool. It's like, okay, like, I'm telling you, I've learned all these tools. I've been doing these tools, and it doesn't change my human nature. I'm still human. I'm still going to have those aspects of those faults, if you will. So it's just, I think, also embracing that this is going to be just a journey and that's it. And so you can relax. And all you want to look at is that you just keep getting better with it. That's it. Like a muscle, just make it better and better and better.
- [42:17]
Kimberly Quinlan
I love that. No, I agree with you on being, you know, taking some time, because in that moment, I know for me, I'm like, no, it has to be dough. And I have a really good point to make make that I really make right now. And that was a really, really hard skill for me to learn. Right to. To was. And I think what was really helpful, too, is, you know, when we took a pause to also be like, I, I'm not leaving. Like, I'm going to leave the room, but I will be back. And letting them know that, like you said, you're still giving them that token of, like, I've still got you where we're still together, but I'm going to need some time was so, so helpful. Hierarchy, just for me, me, it's so.
- [42:58]
Christina Allover
Well, the thing is, if you do it over time, what happens is you're organically building trust in each other. That's, I think, the other kind of side effect, if you will, that people don't talk about is that with, with this process, you get to trust and relax in knowing that, okay, we could have these moments, we can have these disagreements, and it's okay, we'll. We'll come out of it.
- [43:18]
Kimberly Quinlan
And I love that you mentioned the word trust, because if one partner has anxiety, an anxiety disorder, there's already anxiety with their disorder. But when there's not, that's an another form of anxiety that shows up in a relationship when there is trust that allows there to be this. Like, we're on the same team, you know, and it helps with the anxiety piece of it, because we're not constantly like, is this going to blow up? Is this going to be a big rupture? What's going to happen? And I think that's a huge piece of what builds the ability for us to navigate these conversations is having that trust so I'm so glad you brought that up. Oh, my gosh. I could keep going, but I know that we're about to go and record for you a podcast, so I'm not going to miss any more time. Christina has an amazing podcast. Do you want to tell us? We're going to record on yours, but tell us about all of you and where people can listen to your podcast and hear more about your service.
- [44:12]
Christina Allover
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And I, I similarly, I, I love this conversation and I can definitely also keep going. But yeah, I have the OCD Whisper podcast, and so that's on all platforms. Then we have a YouTube channel, and then for my clinical practice, it's at or with results.com that's K O R results dot com.
- [44:29]
Kimberly Quinlan
Amazing. Thank you. This has been so good. I feel like it's like a masterclass for relationships. Oh, so good. Thank you so much. Yeah.
- [44:37]
Christina Allover
Thank you.
- [44:40]
Kimberly Quinlan
Please note that this podcast or any other resources from CBTSchool.com should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day and thank you for supporting CBTSchool.com.