465 How to stop OCD Mental Compulsions (with Lauren Rosen)

Summary

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Your Anxiety Toolkit – Ep. 465: How to Stop OCD Mental Compulsions (with Lauren Rosen, LMFT)

Host: Kimberley Quinlan, LMFT
Guest: Lauren Rosen, LMFT (OCD Specialist, Author)
Release Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a comprehensive, compassionate guide for individuals struggling with OCD mental compulsions. Kimberley Quinlan hosts OCD clinician and author Lauren Rosen for an in-depth conversation about identifying, understanding, and ultimately breaking the cycle of mental compulsions—those invisible, internal rituals that drain life’s joy. The discussion is empowering and practical, offering step-by-step tools and mindful perspectives for listeners ready to make real changes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Are Mental Compulsions? (02:34)

• Definition: Mental compulsions are covert mental actions performed to reduce anxiety, discomfort, or doubt caused by intrusive thoughts.
• Types & Examples:
  • Rumination, worrying, mental checking, mental review, reassurance seeking, mental rehearsal.
  • Not all "obsessing" is passive; often, what people call "obsessing" is actually active mental compulsive responding.
• Speaker Quote:

  “If you’re engaged in active thinking trying to reduce anxiety, then that’s usually something we’d deem a mental compulsion in the context of OCD.”
  —Lauren Rosen [03:49]

2. Real-Life Illustration: Jennifer and Jonathan (04:17)

• Jennifer’s Example: New mother with intrusive harm thoughts—“What if I harm my baby?”
• Jonathan’s Example: Student with religious scrupulosity—“What if I prayed wrong?”
• Purpose: These composite cases illustrate how mental compulsions show up in daily life, highlighting that they're driven by attempts to alleviate distress (05:24).

3. Normalizing Intrusive Thoughts (08:27)

• Insight: Intrusive thoughts are universal, but OCD gives them excessive significance.
• Trap: Trying to convince oneself "it’s just a thought" can turn into another mental compulsion (mental reassurance).
• Speaker Quote:

  “To have a human brain is to have some wild and wonderful thoughts.”
  —Lauren Rosen [09:43]

4. Awareness & Acceptance as First Steps (09:57)

• Metaphor: Quick math facts (automatic thoughts) vs. solving a complex calculation (active mental compulsion).
• Goal: Notice mental compulsions without judgment—perfection is not the aim.
• Speaker Quote:

  “The goal isn’t to completely rid yourselves of mental compulsions. That’s not a reasonable goal…”
  —Lauren Rosen [11:45]

5. Facing the Wish to Control Thoughts (12:52)

• Challenge: The urge not to have distressing thoughts is fundamental but futile.
• Reality Check: Uncertainty and the inability to control intrusive thoughts are part of life.
• Speaker Quote:

  “There are only so many things that we can control in this life. Unfortunately, the presence of thoughts...is not within our control.”
  —Lauren Rosen [13:22]

6. Step-by-Step: Ending the Cycle of Mental Compulsions

Step 1: Non-Judgmental Awareness

• Purpose: Notice internal experiences (thoughts, urges, emotions) without criticism.
• Warning: Harsh self-judgment becomes a new compulsion.

Step 2: Open to (Allow) Emotions (17:16)

• Key Point: Compulsions are driven by the urge to escape feelings (anxiety, guilt, uncertainty).
• Practice: When mental rumination is noticed, pause and intentionally drop into the felt body sensations of emotion—even if uncomfortable.
• Reference: Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor’s 90-second rule—emotions unaided by thinking pass quickly (19:51).

Step 3: Shift Attention (21:28)

• Strategy: After acknowledging thoughts and feelings, practice redirecting focus toward what matters—relationships, values, meaningful experiences.
• Pitfall: Shifting attention is not resistance; it is making space (“expansion”) for all experiences, then gently returning to what’s important.
• Speaker Quote:

  “Trying to answer unanswerable questions is a fool’s errand and life is short.”
  —Lauren Rosen [24:44]

7. Addressing Common Obstacles

The “I Can’t Be Present” Struggle

• Jennifer’s Dilemma: Even during valued activities (e.g., playing with her baby), the mind drifts back to distress.
• Advice: Accept that presence will often include some unwanted thoughts; resisting this reality adds suffering. Mindful “expansion” allows both joy and discomfort (26:29).

The “I’m Too Tired and Angry” Obstacle

• Jonathan’s Dilemma: Frustration and fatigue from the constant mental struggle. Anger about the time lost.
• Advice: Recognize that comparing reality to fantasy (imagining a life without OCD) is itself a counterproductive mental behavior.

  “When you’re comparing your reality with fantasy...that fantasy situation is always going to win out and it’s all irrelevant anyway because you have what you have.”
  —Lauren Rosen [28:53]

8. Mindfulness & Practice: Building the Muscle (31:50)

• Mindfulness meditation is uniquely suited for those with mental compulsions.
  • Enhances nonjudgmental noticing, emotional expansion, and attention shifting skills.
  • Skills generalize: Mastery in not indulging mental compulsions supports resilience in other hard life contexts.
• Personal Story: Lauren notes her own experience with OCD and how these tools helped her navigate genuine loss and grief after losing her father.

  “Even in the face of very very challenging life experiences...my ability to more effectively navigate my mental landscape shifted that experience for me...”
  —Lauren Rosen [31:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Obsessing is really in many ways code for mentally compulsing.”
  —Lauren Rosen [05:15]

• “You be mentally compulsing about not mentally compulsing.”
  —Kimberley Quinlan [12:17]

• “The practice is simple, not easy.”
  —Lauren Rosen [23:34]

• “You’re going to suck at this and you’re going to try anyway.”
  —Kimberley Quinlan [33:22]

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Practical Tools & Takeaways

• Embrace Non-Perfection: The objective is not total eradication of mental compulsions, but reducing their power and frequency—progress over perfection.
• Develop Emotional Tolerance: Willingness to feel discomfort is the gateway to breaking the compulsion cycle.
• Mindful Attention Shifting: Practice returning your focus to what’s valuable, over and over, whenever you get pulled off-track.
• Reframe Setbacks: Self-judgment or frustration are common; recognize them, don’t get stuck in them, and gently recommence the process.
• Leverage Mindfulness Meditation: Especially helpful for strengthening self-awareness and fostering emotional acceptance.
• Recognize the Universality of Intrusive Thoughts: You’re not alone, and your thoughts aren’t uniquely “bad” or meaningful.

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Further Resources

• Lauren Rosen’s Book:
  The Mental Compulsions Workbook for OCD — A practical, comprehensive resource for learning to identify, understand, and overcome mental compulsions ([Lauren Rosen, LMFT]).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36 – Intro to episode and guest
• 02:34 – What are mental compulsions?
• 04:17 – Real-life examples: Jennifer & Jonathan
• 08:27 – Normalizing intrusive thoughts and resisting mental reassurance
• 09:57 – Awareness and difference between obsessions and compulsion
• 17:16 – Opening up to (feeling) emotions
• 21:28 – Shifting attention and expansion
• 26:05 – Navigating distractions and maintaining presence
• 27:48 – Managing anger, exhaustion, and comparison
• 31:50 – Mindfulness, practice, and Lauren’s personal story
• 32:39 – About Lauren’s book and closing advice

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Final Message

This episode invites listeners to approach mental compulsions with compassion, courage, and patience. The message is clear: you won’t do this perfectly, but with nonjudgmental awareness, emotional openness, and practice shifting your attention toward what you value, a fuller and more beautiful life is possible, even with an anxious mind.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to youo Anxiety Toolkit. I'm your host, Kimberly Quinlan. This podcast is fueled by three main goals. The first goal is to provide you with some extra tools to help you manage your anxiety. Second goal, to inspire you. Anxiety doesn't get to decide how you live your life. And number three, and I leave the best for last, is to provide you with one big, big fat virtual hug. Because experiencing anxiety ain't easy. If that sounds good to you, let's go.

[B]

If you want to learn how to stop engaging in mental compulsions, this is going to be the episode for you today. We have Lauren Rosen, who is an OCD specialist, and we are going to talk you through the very start to end process on how you can stop engaging in mental compulsions for OCD and hopefully get your presence and your. Your joy in life back. Because ment compulsions can take up so much energy. Thank you, Lauren, for being here.

[C]

I'm so glad to be here and to nerd out on this topic with you and to really get into the nitty gritty of it. So thank you for having me.

[B]

I think what's so cool about this is there wasn't that long ago that people didn't even know mental compulsions was a compulsion. In fact, we thought OCD was just jumping over cracks and washing our hands and so forth. And I feel like you have now written a book which will be out any day now. So I have all the links to that in the show notes. But you've written a book which is going to bring such awareness to this topic. I'm so excited. I think it's probably one of the most common questions I get asked as a clinician and as like, content creator. So yay. I'm so happy you're here.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, no, it is wild that, isn't it? I. In writing the book, one of the things that I looked at, I believe it's Stanley Rockman who wrote a book called Treating Obsessions. I hope I'm not misremembering that, but something akin to that. Right. And it was talking about mental compulsions in effect. But the field has come a long way and even, you know, a short few decades in terms of understanding. And it's hard because we don't really as a society talk about mental behaviors either. So there's not much of a foundation for people to jump off of and be like, oh, well, I'm engaging in worrying as an activity, or I'm engaging in rumination. These are pretty new concepts to people when they. They come to treatment for ocd. But to your point, they can have such a hec heavy impact on people and really draw from their lives, even when they're seemingly engaged.

[B]

So we are going to give an example of somebody who has OCD, like a real life example, and we're going to work through how they can stop engaging in mental compulsions. But before we do that, can we first just identify, give us a little bit of an understanding, like what is a mental compulsion? Exactly.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, mental behaviors are the larger category under which mental compulsions live. Mental compulsions, like any form of compulsion and OCD are behaviors done with the intent of reducing anxiety, guilt, distress, discomfort, doubt. And so that is caused by that initial thought image urge. So essentially what we're talking about a number of different behaviors and we have names for these different behaviors like rumination, worrying, mental rehearsal, mental review, mental checking, mental tracking. And I do want to acknowledge that the, these, these categories are helpful in that they help people to identify maybe what behaviors they're engaging in. Because most people don't realize that they are engaging in mental behaviors when they are. In fact, most people don't realize when obsessions begin and end and when mental compulsions begin. So understanding that these categories are helpful in terms of labeling. However, it's not important leave anything within the realm of OCD to try to rigidly attach to rules. So we don't need to perfectly identify which categories, category, type of thinking belongs to. But the idea is that if you're engaged in active thinking trying to reduce anxiety, then then that usually something that we would deem a mental compulsion in the context of ocd.

[B]

Amazing. Okay, so let's say that Jennifer, sorry for all the Jennifers out there, but we're going to say Jennifer. So let's say Jennifer has, she wakes up on Tuesday morning and she has a thought, what if I harm my baby? Or there's also, let's say there's Jonathan, who is at school and he has a thought, what if I prayed wrong this morning? And so like these are just two simple examples of an intrusive thought. Now when they have this thought, this matters to them because for Jennifer, she doesn't want to harm her baby. She loves her baby. And that is horrifying. And for Jonathan, he doesn't want to pray wrong because religion is really important to him. Just two simple examples. So how would you walk Jennifer and Jonathan through this process of identifying the mental compulsion that they're most likely engaging in? And what steps would you give them as you go, and, and I'm going to kind of let you riff and. But I'll jump in if I have like a. I'll pretend I'm Jennifer and Jonathan because they're going to have lots of objections along the way.

[C]

Of course they are. Well, and don't we all. Because I want to go ahead and acknowledge in this that everyone with OCD who perform any type of compulsion, whether it's mental or otherwise, has lots of objections as to why they don't want to stop because it's really scary. So, yeah, object away. We'll. We'll do our best. So let's say, yeah, if I, if I'm talking to Jennifer and she's having these thoughts that are really upsetting to her about harming her baby, the first thing that I would want to do is to consider the ways in which she is responding to that thought generally. Right. So what do you. Are you avoiding your baby? Right. So looking at the compulsions as, as a whole and as we're talking about that I would be on the lookout for. And this is something that people can be on the lookout for too, in, in terms of their own description of things. Oftentimes people will say, I can't stop obsessing about this. And obsessing is really in many ways code for mentally compulsing. So if somebody's like, I'm thinking about this all day, or I can't stop thinking, or these thoughts keep coming, oftentimes what we're, you know, yes, there can be repetitive thoughts, but for Jennifer, I might say, oh, okay, so you said you keep obsessing about that. Can you tell me more about what that looks like? So really for folks who are listening, exploring, like, what. How are you responding? And, and how do you try to get rid of the thoughts and the feelings that they engender for Jennifer, obviously, you and I, we hear about these things all the time and we talk about them so much that we know some of the common culprits. And so I might be curious if she finds herself sort of deliberating within her head mentally debating whether or not she has even the capacity to harm her child. Like, or even checking her emot emotions. What was I feeling when I had that thought? What could that mean? These would be examples, some of the mental compulsions. Of course, anyone can engage in any number of mental compulsions and got a litany of them described within different subtypes within the book because. And there's no way to be exhaustive in this regardless, but those Are some, some examples in the context of Jonathan, again, helping him understand, well, in what ways are you resisting the experience. Experience of that thought and the feelings that come with it. So, you know, oftentimes in the context of religious scrupulosity, people will engage in excessive error. So trying to repeat the prayer until it feels just right. We often see that actually while doing activities. So you can see where overt or behavioral, physical compulsions meet mental compulsions, where you continue or perpetually walk through a doorway until you have the right prayer and it feels right while you're doing it, those sorts of things. It might also just be impulsively praying in order to try to rectify the bad prayer, like to atone, like, I'm sorry that I had that. That bad prayer. It won't happen again. Right, Whatever. And. But again, so many different ways that that. That can show up for a person. But I can imagine those being some top contenders for these four souls that we're talking about. Right?

[B]

And if I was Jennifer or Jonathan, I think the thing I want to like, interrupt you with is like, but this has, like, I've got to give this attention because this has got to mean something. Because Jennifer's thinking, no other mom I've ever met has had this thought. And Jonathan's thinking, like, no other good Christian or whatever religion they were would have, would maybe want to pray.

[C]

Wrong. And that is, I think, such a sticking point for people and understanding. I think one of the basis for OCD treatment in general is that thoughts aren't inherently meaningful. So helping people to understand, well, hey, actually you can have any thought and it doesn't necessarily mean anything about you. And by the way, Jennifer and Jonathan, just because you haven't heard about people having these sorts of thoughts, it doesn't mean that they're not having them and that most people, whether they have OCD or not, have these kinds of thoughts. So I think that there's a fair amount of normalizing of a whole host of thoughts that that goes into this process. And I think that that's true across the board, regardless of compulsion. What I do want to say, and this is tricky, is that understanding too, that mental reassurance can become a compulsion. It's a really a tough one, so that we don't want time the thought comes up, then be like, oh, it's okay. It's a normal thought. It's a normal thought. It's a normal thought to try to sort of neutralize it or talk ourselves out of the anxiety that we might be feeling. But understanding that truly to have a human brain is to have some wild and wonderful thoughts is an important part of the process. No doubt.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so what do we do now?

[C]

Yeah, so we've got some awareness and I think it's important that we. Awareness is undoubtedly the first step in this process and, and helping them to understand too, like I said, that difference between initial and mental compulsion is important. The metaphor that. One of the metaphors that I like to use is doing a math problem versus basic addition tables that we are all so automatically able to answer. So if I say one plus one, everyone who knows math is gonna say two in their minds. That's an automatic thought or Akin to 1 versus if I say 528 times 242 for most people. That is going to take a lot of. I know for me it's gonna take a lot of mental machinations. And if you are, are now it as I would be, you might even notice, right? Like where it's like, oh, I'm. I'm trying to envision the, the table of the numbers, right. So like it's an active process trying to resolve this, this question. And that's the difference in, in theory between obsession and mental compulsion. I will say functionally they bleed together after a while and one begets more. Like we see mental compulsions begetting more obsessions and it becomes this really hideous cycle. So yes, helping understand those differences would be an important piece of the puz. Um, but also having this very non judgmental awareness. And I, I think that you and I are, are both big fans of the mindfulness. And obviously with your book on self compassion there's a big mindfulness component. But if Jennifer, Jonathan, anyone is aware of these processes in a judgmental manner, what we often. First of all, that's going to lead immediately to resistance and the next step in this process is acceptance. So that's problem one. Problem two is that if we give way to judgment, the likelihood is we are gonna start engaging in other mental behaviors. And whether compulsions or just other problematic mental behaviors, self flagellation is one that comes up a lot where people just endlessly beat up on themselves for having, for having the thought in the first place or engaging in the mental compulsion in the first place. I think one important tip in all of this is the goal isn't to completely rid yourselves of mental compulsions. That's not a reasonable goal. And I talk to clients about this regularly. It's like if you spend so much time hyper, hyper focused on never engaging In a mental compulsion, you would in effect not be living your life. So we're then missing the point.

[B]

Yeah. You be mentally compulsing about not mentally compulsive.

[C]

Right. This disorder.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

The solution is not all or none. And if we find ourselves ruminating or otherwise mentally compulsing, we want to actually see that as a whim. And so the non judgmental awareness, the ability to go like, oh look, I'm thinking how interesting is a crucial part of stopping it. Because otherwise we lose the thread with other unhelpful mental behaviors or by again getting into this bracing posture against the experience that we find ourselves in.

[B]

Right. Okay. I'm Jennifer and Jennifer, Jennifer is saying, but I don't want to be thinking. I don't want to be thinking. Like, I think that there's like a part of you're saying, I want to be aware that I'm doing this and I can't do. I know I'm not going to do it perfectly, but I just don't want these thoughts. And I know this is sort of like a bit more abstract to the mental compulsion conversation, but I think that was what Jennifer has to say.

[C]

Jennifer. Poor Jennifer. Man, I do, I feel this though.

[B]

I know, I feel like Jennifer might be just Kimberly at this.

[C]

Right. But I don't want to have these thoughts. Yeah. And I honestly, our job is tough in that regard because we have to, we have to hold some pretty bummerish truths with people. And that what I would say to Jennifer is, I hear you. And there are only so many things that we can control in this life. And unfortunately, the presence of thoughts, our awareness of thoughts, the presence of feelings, of urges, these are not within our control.

[B]

And I always say to my clients, science folks with OCD are usually incredibly intelligent and they hate when they can't solve a problem. Like they're problem solvers. They're so intelligent.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

That. And they, they can solve like the unsolvable, but that makes them think they can solve these.

[C]

The actual unsolvable. Yes, absolutely. No. And that's the thing, I think, you know, not to get too jargony, but I do like this term in act we talk about creative hopelessness. Right. We have to develop hopelessness, that these behaviors, these mental compulsions are somehow going to fix the issue. Because what we're talking about unresolvable questions like fundamentally, you know, I have a two and a half year old, almost two and a half. I don't know that I'm not going to harm her.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

I Don't like if I, if I stop and think about it. That's not something that is, is pleasant to me but it's a reality because I don't know what's going to happen in five minutes.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

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[C]

Yeah, I have a best guess and I'm gonna probably live my life based on that best guess. Instead of like trying to figure out what's gonna happen next next but like understanding that we don't have the answers in our minds and, and really coming to that and accepting that is an important part of this process. And I mean these, there's so many, this is so right for discussion. The problem is too, you can see where there is benefit to a certain degree of problem solving and it is in degrees. And I won't go into this too much cause I know poor Jennifer and Jonathan, we gotta help them. But I wanna point in the book to the. I talk a little bit about concrete versus abstract abstract thinking from rumination based cognitive behavioral therapy. Which I think is a really helpful way to sort of delineate between what thinking is helpful versus unhelpful. But hopefully poor Jennifer has accepted that at some stage that these mental compulsions aren't working for her. That like she can't figure out whether or not she's going to harm her child and that she is going to have these thoughts. That's the, the plight of being alive and having a smart and creative brain. Yeah.

[B]

And I think that a lot of people who come to treatment or are listening here today, they can't help ruminate. They don't want to be uncertain, but they're starting to See that the mental compulsions has its own set of consequences. Right. And so I think that that's true. Okay, so what do we do now? Jennifer and Jonathan are patiently like waiting for the next step.

[C]

We're practicing this non judgmental awareness of our internal experiences. I want to acknowledge that there are lots of tools that are going to support with this and maybe we can speak toward those. But just in terms of like a step by step in this. The next step, if we're non judgmentally aware of these experiences, is to open up for the emotional experiences that you're having because those are what drive the compulsions. And I think that that's true across compulsions. But understanding that if I'm unwilling to feel anxious about whether or not I said that prayer correctly, like Jonathan, if I'm unwilling to feel that racing heartbeat, the tightness in my jaw, that I will keep doing the compulsions to try and fix them. And so the second step in the process is when we notice the thinking, we have to drop into the feeling. Yes. Which is a, it's a hard undertaking. Right.

[B]

Because Jennifer's like, I don't want to do that either.

[C]

That sounds horrible. Why would I want to do that? I'm telling you, we have the.

[B]

Isn't there another way?

[C]

I'm so sorry, Jennifer, that I do not have better news for you. There isn't.

[B]

So honest Jennifer is though.

[C]

She's so honest. I do love that about her. And I think it's interesting, right, because we, I can present this in a stepwise fashion. The third step in this process is shifting attention. And the reality is that this step of dropping into our emotions also requires a shift in att. So we could like kind of say one should go before the other, vice versa. I think one piece of the puzzle that is important in all forms of, of compulsion and treatment is acknowledging what emotions are. And I, I think we tend to mix up thoughts and feelings regularly as a society. And you hear people say it feels like all the time. And so really dropping into the physical felt experience of something. As you mentioned, like we work with people with ocd. They're so cognitive and cerebral and they're great problem solvers. And so most of them are totally disconnected from anything, neck down. So the concept of like, okay, well let's get in touch with those physical sensations that you've been avoiding. What I do find interesting is that once we do drop into those physical sensations, they may be unpleasant again. We're going to do our best to approach them non judgmentally, but they're usually not as, as big, scary bad as people make them out to be. I always think back to Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, who has this amazing TED talk and book. It's called My Stroke of Insight. And she's a neuroanatomist, so knows way more about the brain than I do, but she talks about this 90 second rule and this idea that an emotion unaided by thinking will last 90 seconds.

[B]

Yes. We actually just did a podcast on that actually.

[C]

Did you? Oh, that's so funny. And that's it. It's like when we just touch into those physical sensations without fanning the flames by continuing to think and think and think, emotions do go. I mean they, they ebb and they flow. Right. And they may come back. But to allow that process to take place is really important. And that all starts by tapping into the physical reality of your experience. So, you know, anxiety, that's oftentimes racing heartbeat, shallowness of breath, pressure in the chest, chest lift in the stomach, drop of the stomach, movement in the stomach, all of these sorts of things. Tightness in the jaw. I don't think I said that. Or in the throat, a lot of tightness. So. Yeah, and I, I do think too, you know, going back to this idea of resistance as well and why, why that acceptance piece and the non judgmental piece is so important is that when we resist, we effectively reinforce the felt experience of anxiety. So if I'm gonna like brace against anxiety, I'm gonna tighten more, I'm gonna tense more, that's gonna feel like more. Anx of the upshots of all of this is if, if we can't control a lot of things, we have to look at what we can control. And what we can control is whether or not we're adding suffering by bracing and by continuing to mentally compulse.

[B]

I love it. So I understand that I have to be aware and I understand that I'm not going to be perfect at this and that I need to be willing to feel so that I don't overthink. Okay. Is there anything I've forgotten?

[C]

No, I, I think you did great. Jennifer slash Jonathan. You guys are doing great.

[B]

We're a good student.

[C]

Crushing it now.

[B]

Now what do we do now?

[C]

I would. And for those of you who are listening, Kimberly just hasn't she. You know, you're such a studious looking individual right now as well. I'm at the very front of the room. You are.

[B]

I think I want to reinforce to everybody here on why that is the case. If I were embodying them is because I want to get over this condition. Like I want to live my life. I want to be there for my kids. I want to be there for my, my faith and OCD is completely getting in the way. So that's why I'm such a, a good student today.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, right on. That's so, so solid. I think the, the third step here is to shift attention. And again this is. It's an area where a lot of people get tripped up because they're like, well, am I then resisting the thought? That's why we start with acceptance, so that we're not pushing against thoughts and feelings. We're. When we're shifting our attention, we're letting all of that be there. It's like going back to this idea of accepting emotions. The concept, concept of, of expansion is really central. And that's I think also when we're shifting attention, it's like expanding our field of awareness. This is about opening and creating more space for all of these experiences inside of ourselves and then reorienting toward what is meaningful and what matters. And this again is a practice. It's not black and white. You're not going to do this perfectly. At least I can speak for myself that after many, many years of practicing mindfulness and shifting my attention, I sit down to meditate. You don't have to meditate, by the way, but it can be very helpful, especially with mental compulsions. And within seconds I'm off on some tangent or other in my mind because that's what minds do. But the idea is like if we can strengthen that muscle of that ability to notice where your mind has gone so that you can get back to these moments of life, that moment by moment, reclaim that connection with God or that, that connection with your child or frankly whatever else or whoever else you might be trying to connect with. So you know, easier said than done, I think. You know, and I, I love how, how studious are. Are two individuals as beautifully portrayed by you are. But I presume that most of the people listening do have objections because all of this is hard and scary. But truly simple, not easy. Right. The, the practice is simple and there are a lot of supports that people can use to get better at noticing. Non judgmentally, to get better at expanding in the face of experiences and to get better at reorienting their attention toward what is meaningful to them. Not least of which is in this process considering what is more meaningful to you, which is going to be a whole lot of things. Things. Yeah, right. Like Trying to answer unanswerable questions is a fool's errand and life is short. So, you know, but really getting connected with that, I think, is. I talk about this in the book too, but technically, if you have contamination obsessions and you wash compulsively, turning off a faucet and drying off your hands and standing there staring at the faucet, technically is response prevention. Right. But a. It doesn't really set you up for success because it's real easy to reach over and turn that faucet back on and start washing again. But more importantly, you have better things to do with your life. And so that's where I think when we're talking about refocusing our attention and learning to shift our attention, it's specifically so that we can reorient toward the present moment, so that we can. Where all of life ostensibly is, so that we can reorient toward what's meaningful in the present moment specifically and attune to that and savor what we can in life. And actually, one of the things I like to have people reorient to as well is, is the practice of self compassion.

[B]

Yeah. I love it. Let's say Jennifer or Jonathan have gone home and they've practiced this for a week. And I think, let's give one example of Jennifer's. It's easy. She knows what matters to her, that baby. Right. But. But she's struggling with. She goes through the tools and then she moves on to being with her baby. So she's like, okay, I've caught myself doing a mental compulsion. I was trying to solve whether that thought was true or not. And I'm, you know, going through the steps. But then she said, even as I'm playing with the baby and I'm smiling at the baby, my brain wants to go back to, what does that mean? Or could I. Or what was that feeling like? And she's struggling with, like, really not even feeling like she can be present without being distracted.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that this is really the case for so many people is like. But I'm still aware.

[B]

Yes. Right.

[C]

And it's like, again, what can you control and what can't you control?

[B]

Yep.

[C]

The reality, and I think it's a hard pill to swallow for many, is that being with your child is going to sometimes and for a while, maybe a lot of the time involve having these thoughts.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And we can view that being with your child, by the way, that's exposure and refraining from engaging is response prevention. Right. And I, I think again, having that non judgmental awareness of this whole experience, it's playing out in your mind. I think back. There's a book called no Mud, no Lotus by Tik Nhat Hanh. You know it? Yeah. I love that book. And it. He says, I'm gonna try and. And recite this quote, though I'm probably gonna butcher it. Like, happiness is possible. Happiness cannot be without suffering. Yes. And that some people. This is where I can't remember exactly how it goes, but like, some people spend all of their time trying to essentially eliminate suffering. But that's not wise because then you miss the other piece. And that's again, where we're trying to expand our field of vision, make space for all of it so that you don't miss out on the parts that you love, which is this beautiful baby that's sitting in front of you.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So amazing. Jonathan is more just mad about. About it. Like, he's just like, this is exhausting. I'm already so exhausted. Like, yeah, I'm kind of like, I'm in trouble either way. So what do you. What are your advice for those who are coming into this? Are being asked to do this sort of strong strengthening mental practice, but they're already just wiped.

[C]

Yeah. At first I would. I would just acknowledge to him, and I hope he would acknowledge to himself too. Like, of course you're tired. Like, I can appreciate why you would be mad. Mad, because all other things being equal, you don't want to have these thoughts. And I also would consider with him how much wishing he's engaged in, how much comparison. These are also mental behaviors. And again, I mean, whether or not we call that a compulsion is anyone's guess. But the fact that you're sitting there thinking about how much better your life would be if it was other than it is, or wishing that it was different, it's a behavior that ends up exacerbating displeasure. Really. And. And it is a behavior. And so recognizing when you're actively engaged in wishing, not the wish, the thought that comes up, that's just like, oh, I wish it were different than it is. Like, of course that's gonna come up. But when you're actively stewing and chewing on this over and over again about, like, how much better your life would be, It's a fantasy.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

It's not reality. And a lot of this is drawn from an article that Jonathan Grayson wrote a number of years ago about obsessing. About obsessing.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

And just that. That idea that when you're comparing your Reality with fantasy. That fantasy situation is always going to win out and it's all irrelevant anyway because you have what you have and if you're comparing it with something else, you were going to miss what you have. So I would want to explore that with Jonathan and be like, okay, you're angry. Can we drop into the feeling of anger? But can we stop engaging in these behaviors that are only fueling the fire? And this is where you can kind of see that the, the sort of trans diagnostic piece. Right. Like beyond diagnosis that people, all people engage in, in wishing and feel angry because they're, they're thinking about how much better their life would be and actually where I think people who end up having to navigate mental compulsions have a leg up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because you have the ability to notice all sorts of thinking and consider whether or not it's helpful and then be like, nope, don't want to do that. No, thank you. Because you know, you were saying, I think it was, Jennifer was saying this earlier on is like, I don't want to, to think. It's like, okay, well, you don't get to choose whether or not you have the thoughts, but you can choose whether or not you engage in all of this thinking and, and trying to think more in order to have less time spent thinking. Doesn't make sense. Even though that's the rationale that leads people ultimately to engage in mental compulsions.

[B]

Yeah. Amazing. And I, I would agree. I think I always say to clients that if you can get good at this, this is a skillful life. Like this is a skill that I have seen high level perform traumas engage in like that they can have anxiety and have fear and not let it take over so that they can perform whether it's sports or arts or in business, like it's a skill and once you get it, it will benefit you in many areas of your life. So I. Yeah, yeah, so true.

[C]

And I go to that end. I just want to acknowledge that, you know, I, and I'm open about it. I talk about in the book I have OCD myself. I struggle with mental compulsions. Honestly, it's, it's probably one of the reasons why it's been so important to me to like, to work on, on the spreading awareness around it and to help people through them because it is confusing. But because I've had to master these skills as a, as a result of, of my experience, I found that even in the face of very, very challenging life experiences that we can't control. Like I lost my dad a year ago. Right. And it's like, thank you. And it was an, I don't, I'm not trying to mince words. It was an incredibly painful and sad experience. But I know undoubtedly that my ability to more effectively navigate my mental landscape shifted that experience for me and, and has made it in moments. Like I've been able to tap into moments of beauty as well as moments of deep sadness. But I also haven't sat around perpetuating that. I, you know. And so for whatever that's worth, there are a lot of applications of this work.

[B]

Oh, I thank you for sharing that. Okay. Do you have any final pieces of wisdom for Jennifer and Jonathan?

[C]

Oh, Jennifer and Jonath. I, I, I think that there are so many practices like I mentioned, that one can engage in to develop these muscles. I did plug mindfulness meditation. I do think it is uniquely suited for people with mental compulsions. So I might advocate for them to practice so that they can support that non judgmental noticing that's so much of, of basic focused attention. Mindfulness meditation practice, practice and shifting attention. Right. That, that, that really bolsters both of, of those, those skills which are, you know, two out of three of of the steps that we discussed. So I would, I would advocate for that or engagement and a whole other litany of skills. Like I said, I've got a lot of them in my book.

[B]

Tell us about your book. We want to know everything.

[C]

The book is, is the Mental Compulsions Workbook for ocd. And it dives deep into obsessions, mental compulsions, differentiating between the two and how they show up in these different subtypes just so people can see their own experience. And, and then these steps, really, they're outlined more thoroughly throughout it. And you did a beautiful job.

[B]

It was a wise and efficient and, and deep and compassionate like walk through you. You nailed it.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, I really, really appreciate that. It means a lot coming from you and I'm just grateful to, to be a part of this journey for some people because you know, as, as I said, I, yeah, I've been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's a rough spot to be in, so.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

My advice to Jennifer and Jonathan is you're, I say this to my clients all the time is you're gonna suck at this and you're gonna try anyway.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Because it is a practice of you will suck to start with. And, and I, yeah. But everything you taught was spot on, evidence based. I'm so grateful that you're here to share this with me with us. So happy and proud of you for writing this book. Such a huge accomplishment. I know writing a book is like, will rip you to pieces in the process, so I'm very, very impressed.

[C]

Well, thank you. Yeah, I, I know that you've, you've been there and I just have to say how much fun this was. I don't think I was expecting to quite enjoy. I mean, I, I don't. I should not say that because I, I adore you, but like, I wasn't expecting to have fun. It was just because Jennifer and Jonathan brought. Brought. They just brought. No, it was just. But it was. Thank you for putting out such good points to help demonstrate. I hope that it's helpful to listen to. And your podcast is, as always, such an incredible resource to so many. So hopefully I can be in addition to that.

[B]

Absolutely. So let's sort of round this out, guys. If you want to learn how to stop doing mental compulsions, take what Lauren has taught you today. Go and get her book, Deep Dive. Make it your number one priority for 2026. You will not reg Reddit and we are so excited. Thank you so much for being here.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Please note that this podcast or any other resources from CBTSchool.com should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day and thank you for supporting CBTSchool.com.