B (4:37)

Sure. So I'm an OCD therapist and researcher and previously we worked at McLean Hospital in their OCD residential program. That kind of got me into the OCD world back in 2007. And yeah, my passion is working with people with OCD anxiety, perfectionism, ERP, compassion based focuses and just really helping people change how they're relating to their really the thoughts, the behaviors, the patterns that are making life really hard and learning how to relate to it differently and see that kind of that freedom that can come with not getting sucked into the exposures for not beating yourself up from it. And also like we're talking about in this talk, being able to be playful and being able to have fun in the process too is just so powerful. So I'm so excited to be here. I have my own group therapy practice, Clearview Horizons, and also my online platform Break the Cycle with Kim, which has self help, OCD resources. So thank you so much for having me.

A (5:40)

Oh, I'm so thrilled. So when we did this presentation, you actually had this really cool little piece of research at the front end. I wondered if you would share that with us because I feel like it sets the foundation beautifully.

B (5:53)

Yes, yes. So it's really interesting. So Volkswagen, kind of unexpected. The car company had some behavioral experiment studies that they did, and one of them, and it's looking at behavior change. And so what they were trying to see is could adding fun. They call it the fun theory. Could adding fun kind of really help people make behavior change that helps them for the better or help society for the better in this situation? And so one of the ones that we talked about in our presentation was looking at in the subway system. And so what they did was they had a staircase that was directly next to an escalator. And they have video footage of kind of showing how much the staircases or the staircase is used versus the escalator. And it's like most people are taking that escalator up. Then what they did is they changed the staircase. So instead of just being a standard staircase, they made it look like a piano, right? Like the keys on their piano. So they had it like the white keys, the black parts on the keys. They made it so that when you step on it, like, music plays. And then have that video footage of after this kind of change happened, how many people now are taking the stairs? Because it's fun, right? It looks fun, it's playful, it has music. You see people kind of going like up and down, making the notes, dancing around. And they had said that, like 66% increase of people now taking the stairs over the escalator just by making the stairs fun. So it's. While it's looking at not kind of like an OCD study, it's the same underlying kind of principles, right. Of if we can kind of make things more fun, more playful, like, how does that help us want to make changes? Right. How does that help people want to do things differently that then will help them, whatever their goals might be ocd, non ocd. So that was kind of the cool study that we spoke about in that presentation that kind of laid the groundwork.

A (7:46)

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So I think that what's so beautiful about that, I get goosebumps every time. And we will leave a link to that video because in the presentation, you actually shared the video of it. And it's so fun to watch people like, like, curiously stepping on one step and being so, so excited about the step, making a noise. I think that the beauty of exposure is we see on the Internet or we. How we hear about it is people, you know, facing 10 out of 10 anxiety, fears, and it being so terribly painful. And I have to admit, and I've even had people say, I don't know how you do what you do. Like, isn't that just so hard to, like, for, like, they use this term, like, force people to do these things. And I'm like, literally, never once, like, never once have I felt that way. And if I even get an inkling of that, I back up and I think about, how can we make this more playful? And the amount of times where you can find a way to have someone face their fear, but in a fun, ish way that's in line with their values. It's amazing.

B (8:54)

Right?

A (8:54)

It's. It's so cool. So tell me, let's sort of go through what are some ways that people can make their fear or facing their fear fun? And maybe we'll do some together, because I know we did in our presentation.

B (9:07)

Yeah. And I think one of the things that we spoke about, too, is kind of looking at. When we're making something fun, we're not taking away from the ERP principles. Yes. So it's not that we're like, oh, we're just gonna have lots of fun and kind of, like, do something but not really do it. And, like, the goal to not really feel that anxiety. Right. That's. That's not true at all. Right. We're trying to make it, like a lighter, more playful ads. I'm like, oh, like, I'm not. I kind of am more open to doing this. Or I'm not, like, as like, ugh. Right. And so it's really trying to help clients be able to get a little bit more excitement about it versus, like, dreading. And it's okay if people dread. Right. Because that's all part of that process. But if we add a little bit more lightness and playfulness to it, it can really help change people being more open to trying or being more open to kind of following through outside of therapy. Because I find that's one of the biggest things as far as kind of making gains. Right. Is that follow through in between sessions.

A (10:02)

Yeah. That homework, compliance.

B (10:04)

And it can be so hard because, you know, understandably, we're kind of helping and wanting people to. To continue to work on facing the ocd. Right. Reducing resisting those rituals and doing that in therapy is hard and doing it outside of therapy can be even harder. And then doing it not just like once or twice. Right. But we really want that consistency and that frequency. So yeah, so I found that like, really trying to add that playful element again. But we're not taking away from the actual expos because people might be like, wait, but that's supposed to be hard. And yes, it is, but you can also, like both can coexist together.

A (10:42)

Now, as you know, I have a private practice. I have six amazing therapists in Calabasas, California. However, we do not take insurance. Now if you are looking for insurance covered OCD or BFRB treatment, I want to let you know about nocd. NOCD provides face to face live video sessions with specialized licensed OCD therapists. Now their therapists use exposure and response prevention. We know this is the gold standard for ocd. So you can be absolutely confirmed that you're in the right place there. And they have a clinically proven app that helps you stay connected to your therapist and other others who have OCD between sessions. So you'll always feel supported. Now the cool thing is NOCD is available in all 50 US states and even internationally. And they accept most insurance plans, making it affordable and accessible. We love that. Now if you think you might have OCD or you're struggling to manage your symptoms, you can book a free call. Just click the link in the show notes@nocd.com I am honored to partner with NOCD. I want to remind you that recovery is possible. Please do not forget that. Now big hugs and let's get back to the show.

B (12:02)

Yeah, and so I think like, as we're talking about that and as we did in the presentation, like that's a key kind of takeaway because if someone's like, oh, we can make it fun and we don't want to lose the element of the ERP in that process. So one kind of one that I like a lot, I'm kind of really. Basketball used to be my life decades ago now, but I still enjoy it. And so I kind of find that it can be fun to kind of come up with little games, right? So like if there's, if we're working on something, it could be contamination, but it can be so many other things too because oftentimes like, oh, we're thinking of like throwing an object into a trash can, right? And that would be maybe contamination for some people with contamination. But you can do that same thing in trying to kind of take something and toss it in and it can Be non contamination related. Maybe it's like you're taking a ball and tossing it in. Or it can be a trash can, it can be a bucket. Doesn't matter what the actual bin is. And perhaps if you miss that toss, then you kind of do an exposure. Or if you miss that toss, then you're saying a triggering word out loud. So it's kind of. You're adding in that fun, playful element of doing something or trying to get that basket. Or if you don't like basketball, like kick a ball into a goal or whatever it might be. And we're linking up some type of exposure to that. And that's how it can be any theme. So it's not just like a contamination thing.

A (13:26)

Yeah, I remember once. Well, many times, but specifically with this example of playing battleships. And you would have three strikes and if you got sunk, whoever got sunk, we would do an exposure. Right. So if someone got sunk or if they didn't get sunk, depending on the rules that we'd made. But it also letting the client make the rules of the games. Right. Because it gives them a sense of like, I have. I'm a part of the making of the game and I'm a making of the rules. And that was really fun because instead of it being like a. All right, here we go, we're gonna do exposure. It was like this buildup of the game. Focus. I'm thinking of when you said basketball. Even, like if you did have to throw something in trash, you would like pretend to basketball and slam dunk it into that trash.

B (14:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (14:11)

So I love that idea and I think, I love that you're saying, like, you're into basketball. That's how you would do it if it was your exposure. Let's say I was into cross stitching. Maybe as I'm doing one of the cross stitches, I would be thinking of a thought that I, you know, maybe had some anxiety doing, like trying to intermingle it with the things that you value.

B (14:34)

Yeah, yeah. And it could be fun to make it like for clients who are more kind of like a little bit of like a competition feel to it.

A (14:41)

Right.

B (14:41)

So you're kind of adding in, okay, like, who can, who can get like five baskets first? Yeah, right. Like as a therapist, like you're shooting it in and it's like, okay, if the therapist gets it in, then we're going to do like this exposure.

A (14:52)

Right.

B (14:53)

You get in. In first. We're going to do this one. But again, it's never forced.

A (14:56)

Yeah.

B (14:56)

So it's like, you're kind of coming up with this plan and working on it together, but you're adding in that playful of, like, all right, who's gonna. Who's gonna get the baskets first? Right. And looking at, like, how can we add in those types of things for. And not everything has to be, like, competition or basketball. Right. Like, you're saying it can be really any whatever one's kind of interests and hobbies are.

A (15:20)

Yeah.

B (15:21)

Bringing that element into it can be a great way of just, like, adding that enjoyment to it.

A (15:27)

Yes.

B (15:28)

Yeah.

A (15:28)

I remember once having client many, many years ago, and this client had a fear of vomit, which is a very common phobia and metaphobia. And she was moving up her hierarchy really well. And it got to the. Where we were doing exposures to the sounds of vomit, and she, of course, did not want to do this. And I said to her, who would be, like, in your life, who would be the funniest person to do this with? Like, what would be the funniest? And I thought she'd say, like, a friend or her brother or something. And she was like, it would be really hilarious to actually hear my dad make a vomit noise. Because she's like, he's so serious, and he's, like, always so busy, and he's at work, and, you know, he's maybe a little more firm than mom, who's more playful. She's like, it would actually be hilarious to hear him. And so I was like, okay, let's ask him. Bring him in. And of course, dad was like, whatever helps you to get better. But he was really uncomfortable. And that made her laugh. Right. Because he didn't like to act. He felt uncomfortable doing it in front of me. But she thought that was classic.

B (16:29)

Right.

A (16:29)

Hilarious stuff. So I think it's also, like, it doesn't even have to be the action being fun. It might be doing it with someone who makes it fun, or it's funny to hear it when somebody else does it. Or even clients I've had say their fear into one of those, like, sound machines that make it sound like Bugs Bunny or Darth Vader or something. So they're saying they're fear, but it's. There's a funny nature to it.

B (16:53)

Yes, yes. And then looking at kind of that piece of bringing back the exposure element. So, like, if someone's doing. Say we're doing, like, a cooking thing. Right? And maybe, like, the person, like, really enjoys cooking, but then we're adding in the exposure element. Yeah, Right. So if it's like, okay, we can measure things. If it might be, like, perfectionism, we're not measuring it. You know, kind of like going a little bit more loosey goosey with the measuring. Yes. Or if it's like, oh, let's put this. Let's do steps out of order is contamination. Maybe we'll put a measuring cup, like, on the floor. So whatever it is. Right. To kind of like, bring on the. The OCD for that person. But then we can kind of take. We can pause during it. So it's not like the whole thing has to just be like, the cooking. It's like, okay, let's do this. Let's kind of take a few moments now and, like, focus on what you just did.

A (17:39)

Yeah.

B (17:39)

Focus on the fact that, like, we didn't go in the right order.

A (17:42)

Yeah.

B (17:43)

Really kind of taking that time to go into the exposure mindset and into also, you know, beforehand discussing. All right, what's the goals as far as, like, the ritual prevention plan? Yeah. Right. So, like, what are the rituals that you might be doing if you were to do this now? And if we didn't kind of follow the OCD's rules, what would the OCD want you to be doing? Or what might you kind of do to feel, you know, that relief? And. Okay, can we. What can we do to reduce that? Right. Can we kind of completely not do it? Or is that too much of a jump? And we want to kind of start with reducing, kind of checking in on. All right. If we don't do this one, we want to make sure we're not swapping to another one. So it's really kind of holistically, we're still staying in the same exposure framework in the principles where we're just adding in, like, okay, we like cooking. Let's add this cooking in. Or let's put music on. You know, as we're doing this that we enjoy doing, but then taking kind of those periods of time to then, like, just really focus on and. And be with that discomfort and really go into it is still, like, the essential part of making exposure fun, too.

A (18:43)

And I think maybe what we need to really. We didn't talk about this, or maybe we did, and I've just lost my memory on this one. But I think it's also important to make response prevention fun. Yes, right. Like, yes. And we can. We kind of did. This could be an exposure or it could be response prevention. But I know we talked about. And I've done this on social media, and I do it podcast is even singing your fear as an exposure, but also as a form of response prevention instead of ruminating. Right. So. Yes.

B (19:15)

Yes.

A (19:15)

Yeah.

B (19:16)

How.

A (19:16)

Tell us a little bit about how you incorporate singing or that kind of thing into exposure and response prevention.

B (19:22)

Yeah. And so as far as it can be kind of just singing to kind of like any tune. Right. Or it can be making up your. Your own kind of lyrics to stuff. That one could be really fun. Yes. Singing and also kind of like writing stories.

A (19:35)

Yes.

B (19:36)

Right. So instead of just doing like imaginal exposure scripts, which can be a great kind of practice, it can also do exposures of like writing just like triggering stories, like incorporating the triggering aspects of the ocd, but making it into like a really fun play. Like kind of like writing your own little novel or short story. And those can be so much fun and they're so funny as like when the client's reading it because they're really using that creativity and writing again, stuff that typically would be like, whoa, I could carefully. If I'm writing this.

A (20:04)

Yeah.

B (20:05)

There's also that really kind of like funny, fun element to it that like, it's just. It's fun in the session. It's. It's fun. And so that's one way of kind of not really the singing piece, but it's a similar theme.

A (20:17)

Yeah.

B (20:17)

And then doing, I mean, I think now, because I have a. Almost three year old, I think in like kids songs, nursery rhymes, like all the time. Like. And so it's looking at like, those are the songs that come to my mind first. Yeah. You know, taking like any of those and changing the lyrics to it. So instead of like, if you're happy, you know, it. Clap your hands. Right. It can be like, if you are. And then insert whatever that theme is. Right. So give me an example. Yeah. So it could be like, you know, if. If we're going with like an existential. Right. Like if you have no control over your life at all, clap your hands. Right. So that could be one. It could be, you know, like from a. From a harm one. You could throw in like an adjective that would be, you know, kind of evoke the OCD from that or like a sexual one or a religious one. Like there's really any theme that could go into that. Yeah. And just kind of bringing in that worry and then you're essentially saying, that's you. So it's like you're. You're doing it again in that playful way, but it just adds in another way of kind of doing the exposure, but with some like, kind of like Fun and lightness. And then again, also taking that time after to just. If you're noticing when you're doing it, whether you're doing it on your own or you're doing it, like, in the therapy, and it's. You're finding it's, like, too fun. It's like, it's too easy. Then it's kind of taking that pause and saying, okay, like, that's great that this was fun. And is it fun because, like, it's no longer, like, you've been working on it and it's no longer bothering you, or is this something that's, like, actually hard and it's just fun right now because, like, you're not connecting with it from an exposure.

A (21:54)

Yeah.

B (21:54)

And if that's happening, then we want to talk. Okay. Like, maybe we just drop the singing for a moment. Right. And just kind of go into it differently. Or if we're singing, maybe it's, like, evoking more of that, like, maybe a little bit, like, the social kind of embarrassment piece. And so it's taking away from, like, the fear because it's like, oh, I'm so focused on me singing that. Like, I'm thinking, how do I sound? Are you judging me? And so it's kind of like a different type of exposure, but it's thinking it's not connecting with the primary exposure. Yep. So we want to kind of really be talking when doing this type of stuff.

A (22:26)

And I love what you're saying because we're talking about making it fun, but you're bringing in the nuance of making sure it's still an appropriate level of exposure, that we're not just doing this as like, a. Another compulsion to make the fear neutralize with positivity. Yeah. And we're trying to really, like, squeeze the benefit of the exposure, but. But in a way that is still. Still difficult. Right. Still not. We don't. I mean, yes, it's a good starter exposure, but they can also be good middle and hard exposures as well. But I think I hear that you're. You're constantly asking, how can we make sure this isn't compulsive? How can we make sure this is pushing someone to a reasonable level? And how are they still that foundation of. Are we still practicing being uncertain? Are we still willing to be uncomfortable and all of those things. Correct.

B (23:17)

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yes. Yes.

A (23:19)

Yes.

B (23:20)

I.

A (23:21)

So I'll give you an example, listeners, just because I know you have been hanging on this whole time to hear me sing. Like, I want to just Sort of make sure you guys understand what that means. So I use this all the time for myself. And let's say I have a fear that I am going to miss. This is my core fear, is I'm going to miss something simple and something catastrophic will happen and I will have to live with a conflict, consequences. That it was my responsibility, that I could have prevented it. Very hyper responsibility. So if it's anything that comes up, it could be Tuesday, it could be Thursday, it could be a Tuesday morning, could be Tuesday night. Doesn't matter. You just adapt it to your fear. So let's say your fear is that you miss something. So I would sing it to the Happy Birthday song. So I go, I missed dropping him off. He will die. I'll never get to see my son again. Like, it could be simple like that. Like hyper responsibility that I have to like do this perfect goodbye to him every day. Or if it's like I said the wrong thing, I harmed my daughter. She'll forever be traumatized and I'll be a bad mom forever. Like, it can be whatever your fear is. So I. Sorry about the singing, guys. I know. But I just wanted to demonstrate that because you can literally replace any fear in there. And I had a. I actually. If you had to ask me to say that, I wouldn't be smiling. But there's something about singing it that feels so ridiculous that it feels doable. And I still get the benefit from it.

B (25:02)

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love. Like you're saying it's so great because it's something it can become. Like, not in a kind of a ritual way, but like your go to. I guess. Like this is happening. If you notice, you start to kind of fuse with it. It's like, no, this is what you do. Yeah. And so it's. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yes.

A (25:19)

So one other thing that I like to do when you're talking about stories is Mad Libs. And just so anyone. Literally, I've had therapists of my therapists who work for me here in my practice where they actually use AI to create a very basic mad Lips. Or you could just get the book from the bookstore. You know, you can buy Bat Mad Libs and then you just fill it in with your obsession content. So like, if it has to be an object, they might write knife. If it has to be an emotion, they might write terrified or guilty or uncertain. If it says a place, they might pick the place where their obsession is. And they're using that so that when you read a Back. It's an opportunity for an exposure.

B (26:02)

Yeah.

A (26:02)

Yeah. Yes. I'm silly. Yes.

B (26:04)

Yes. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. What other ideas do you have? I also like, I like doing, like, obstacle course type of things or kind of like, I like making things into games, right? Because I feel like it's so fun. And when you think about, like, how kids learn best too, right? It's like, they really do so well with trying. It's like, oh, like, oh, go brush your teeth. Like, no, Like, I mean, one of the tone matters, right? But it's also like, if you can make things, not everything has to be a game, but, like, adding lightness into things and kind of bringing in, like, fun and humor just with behavior change in general just can be so, so effective. And so it's looking at, like, you know, a lot of times with. It can show up with difficulty, like, oh, that's not fair.

A (26:46)

Right?

B (26:47)

Or this is. This is the order it's supposed to be. Or it's like, okay, but this is what we're supposed to do. So I'm like, now I don't want to. I can't, like, switch to that. Right? So if you have kind of like an obstacle course of like, all right, step one, like, go do this, go do that, and then at some point during it, it's like, all right, actually, let's swap step two and four. Or let's not do this and do that. So it's kind of just having different ways again. Like, they're. You're actively doing something, but triggering that underlying process of like, oh, but this doesn't feel right. Yeah, right. Like, so I think kind of those type of things are another way that I kind of find bringing in fun or doing like a, like, type of, like, race type of thing, or just the walking, like, putting something on your head. Right. And it can. Doesn't have to be, again, only be contamination. Because a lot of times people can think of like, oh, something on the head that falls to the ground. Yeah, that's contamination. But it could be so many other things, right? It could be looking at. Maybe it's like for religious ocd, putting something that, like the OCD saying, you know, can't touch the ground, but that. But the faith is not saying that. And so putting on your head and then trying to walk and, like, see how far you can go before it falls and touches the ground. Yeah. Or it can be doing, like a race if you're doing it in session. Like, you both have something on your head and you're seeing kind of like, who can get to the end quickest, right. Like it all play competition stuff. For me, the goal is it's very playful. It's just not serious, like, I'm going to beat you or you're going to beat me. Is that add in like just a fun little aspect?

A (28:11)

I think it adds an opportunity to be mindful too. Like when we're just sitting and doing an exposure, let's imagine two people, therapist and the client sitting on a chair and they're just doing this very simple exposure. Not that there's any. Anything wrong with that, but it's hard to then zoom out and be in that sort of normal, functioning life and practice real life skills.

B (28:31)

So I feel like in the game.

A (28:32)

It gives you something to focus on. Not that you're distracting, but practicing being mindful while you feel uncertain, while you feel anxious. That's the part of this I love. Like, I once had a client where there was one specific word that was so triggering for her, and it was also like more of a post traumatic ocd. So it was related to an event that happened and then her OCD just took over that one thing.

B (28:56)

So we would.

A (28:57)

She would write that word on pebbles in her front yard. She had this massive yard of pebbles and they were like, I don't know, a couple of inches, maybe three inches. These rocks, more like Mexican river rocks or very flat stones that maybe you would paint on. And so she would choppy the word and then just. Just hide it down under there. So like, not to like, she didn't want her kids to pick it up or anything. But then every day she would go in and write the word and then put the rock, turn it back down and put it there. And it was like a symbol of her kind of giving OCD the bird. But she thought it was hilarious. Like, I didn't come up with this.

B (29:35)

She was like, you thought it?

A (29:37)

Because I think her kids were painting rocks. So she was like, I'm just gonna do this. And it's so great to shift that playfulness.

B (29:44)

Yeah, I love that. That's made me think too of like, if someone, you know, is by. By the beach, right? And going. And like writing in the sand, that could be a fun thing too, to kind of like go and write the worms or in the sand right by the. They're in the sand. But depending on what you're writing, right. We don't. It wouldn't be really keeping that in the sand. It could be writing it by the water, right. If it's that, like that you could actually keep whiting it, and then you're seeing kind of the. The waves kind of come in and take it away, but you're still, like, rewriting it out there, but you're adding in, connecting to something that you enjoy or adding in that playful element to it.

A (30:17)

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Is there any other ideas? I mean, really, what I'm. The message I want to leave us on is you can do this with anything. People have different senses of humor, too. Right. So, you know, I have a. This is sort of the irony of human beings. I have a son who hates guns but loves Nerf guns. Like, he's dead against guns, but he will make a gun out of his toast. If he was like, feel like, stick him up, Mom.

B (30:46)

Like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.

A (30:47)

But if you said something about guns out, he'd be like, oh, my God, guns. And so I think it's also sort of learning and everybody taking for themselves, like, learning what is funny to them. Not that we're trying to make jokes of someone's suffering, but asking people, what do you find funny? What, you know, would it for him if. I'd say if he needed to do an exposure, he'd probably think it was hilarious to, like, write words on a Nerf gun bullet and shoot it at the wall. Like, that's. That's where we can be creative. Do you have any advice for people who are. As we finish up here, do you have any advice for people who are wondering how to implement this into their own exposures?

B (31:26)

Yeah, so I think it's looking at one. Trying to kind of see what are things that you like to do. And I know that can be a slippery slope, because sometimes people can also be like, ooh, I don't want to take something that I enjoy and kind of like, you know, contaminated something that. That is really scary. Yeah. And so that's a part of it. And that could be an exposure. Right. Of. Let's working up towards being able to do that. Right. So taking in that enjoyment, if it's a video game or if it's certain songs or that you like, or dancing or whatever it might be and trying to bring that in.

A (31:58)

Yeah.

B (31:59)

So if that's a piece, that's a common piece, that can happen and super understandable. But again, we. To me, that would be a great exposure to work towards, because otherwise it's essentially saying, well, this stuff's off limits. I can't kind of have these two be in existence with each other, which just reinforcing the ocd yeah, but I think that. But if that piece isn't showing up right, then it's looking at, okay, what are things that you genuinely enjoy doing? Right. And how can you kind of integrate that into the exposure from this sense of going back to that Volkswagen kind of fun theory of this is hard stuff that. That you're being asked to work on, right. That. That you want to or know is helpful for you to work on or wants to or believes would be helpful to work on. Right. But life is. Has. Is busy. There's a lot of things, and it can be really hard to kind of take that extra time to do this. Right. Especially when there's all these other aspects of life. And so it's looking at, okay, what would help me be more likely to do this? That's kind of that guiding question that I would recommend people kind of ask and then be like, all right, this, this, this, or this, or, like, music or dance or making into some type of challenge or cooking or, you know, video game. And how can you kind of add in an element that makes you a little bit more excited to, like, do that exposure while sticking to that principle of we want to do it, and we also want to take time to really focus on, like, what you're doing and working on that ritual prevention piece, because that's a huge piece of what exposure work is.

A (33:24)

Yep, yep, exactly. And alternating. Right. So having it be more of a formal exposure than doing a fun one, widening the context in which you can do an exposure is awesome. I was also just imagining. Imagining someone doing a cheer. Like, if they're having something, like they were afraid of sinning, they'd be like, give me an S. Give me an.

B (33:42)

S. Give me an N. Yes.

A (33:45)

Yes. I love this. Okay, so can you tell us where people. I know you shared at the beginning where people can get a hold of you, more about you and the work that you're doing?

B (33:55)

For sure. So my website for therapy is the Clear view horizons. So cbhorizons.com and then for resources, it's Break the cycle. So it's letsbreakthecycle.com and both of those places have different resources. I actually have something specific to the. This topic of making exposures more fun. So that's a guidebook that I have on this topic specifically. And yeah, I would love for you to. I also have a free OCD awareness scale which people can download as well.

A (34:34)

Amazing. Thank you so much for being here and talking about. It's. It's so joyful. Right. To talk about finding ways to make like life's hard enough. Yeah, it's, you know, if we can. Like, I think that. And I think that sometimes doing activities that are joyful is an exposure in and of itself. OCD wants you to be serious about the topic.

B (34:57)

Yes. Yes.

A (34:58)

Thank you for bringing some joy into something that's already hard.

B (35:02)

Well, thank you so much for the presentation on OCD SoCal, and for having me on your podcast and to talk more about this topic.

A (35:10)

Amazing.

B (35:11)

Thank you.

A (35:15)

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