486 What If I'm Not Enough" Is Not a Confidence Problem (It's an Anxiety Trap) with Paul Gilmartin

Summary

Podcast Summary: Your Anxiety Toolkit Episode 486 – “What If I'm Not Enough" Is Not a Confidence Problem (It's an Anxiety Trap) with Paul Gilmartin

Episode Overview In this insightful episode, host Kimberley Quinlan welcomes Paul Gilmartin, host of The Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast, for a deep-dive conversation about the pervasive fear of “not being enough.” Together, they explore how this core anxiety manifests in self-worth, productivity, relationships, and daily life—emphasizing that it’s not merely a question of confidence, but an anxiety trap that keeps many people stuck in cycles of compulsivity, shame, and self-doubt. The episode features candid personal stories, practical reflections, and memorable takeaways to help listeners recognize and gently address this anxiety in their own lives.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Exposing the “not enough” fear as a core anxiety that underlies many mental health struggles
• Challenging the notion that confidence-building alone resolves this fear
• Exploring how “not enoughness” drives behaviors like compulsive productivity, people-pleasing, and self-denial
• Offering practical perspectives on self-compassion, vulnerability, and community for genuine healing

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Universal Fear: "What If I'm Not Enough?"

• Kimberley opens by identifying that beneath most anxiety symptoms is the deeper fear of not being “enough”—whether as a partner, parent, or person. She asserts that trying to answer or “solve” this fear only entrenches it more deeply.
  Quote: “The harder you try to answer it, the worse it gets. You seek reassurance, you collect evidence, you build a case for your own self worth... but just for a little while. And then the doubt comes right back. And this time, louder.” (00:24–00:42)

“Not Enoughness” as an Anxiety Trap

• Paul shares how this fear commonly surfaces in his support groups and interviews, often appearing as:
  • I don’t have enough
  • I don’t do enough
  • I’m not enough
  • Or even, I’m too much (01:31)
• Both Kimberley and Paul agree that the fear is like a “basement-level” anxiety beneath more visible worries (02:06).

The Paradox: Confidence Can Coexist with Not-Enoughness

• Kimberley relates how, despite being a confident person, she holds both feelings of “enoughness” and “not enoughness” at the same time.
  Quote: “I feel very whole and fulfilled and enough and worthy, while at exactly the same time feeling not enough and like, I'll never be enough. Like, they're at the same time now.” (05:57)
• Paul appreciates learning to hold two opposites at once, referencing the “No Bad Parts” book and therapy work (07:02).

Behavioral Costs: How “Not Enough” Drives Us

• Both share how “not enoughness” manifests as:
  • Overwork and productivity-driven identity
  • Restlessness and discontent
  • Addictive behaviors or unhealthy coping (eating disorders, overworking, compulsive self-denial)
  • Shame and the compulsion to “perform” worthiness (14:22, 15:37, 16:53)
• Memorable moment:
  Kimberley humorously describes “announcing” she did the dishes to get external validation (13:57–14:22).
• Personal Tally: Paul explains how self-punishment feels familiar, so even denying himself a breakfast taco can feel like a breakthrough in self-care (15:37–17:13).

The Futility of Reassurance and External Validation

• Both agree that trying to fix the fear by racking up achievements, accolades, or others’ approval never resolves the emptiness—it’s always temporary, and the target keeps moving (29:07).
• Paul’s Billboard Story (29:28):
  “I used to think... if your face is on a billboard on Sunset Blvd., that means you made it... And one year… they put my face on a billboard... In that moment, I lost respect for Sunset Boulevard. And that's when I realized, oh, there is something bottomless inside my soul that I'm trying to fill, and this is never going to be enough.”

The Role of Shame & Self-Compassion

• Kimberley: Identifies shame as a constant, subtle force that amplifies the not-enough feeling; learning to name her shame provides some distance and relief.
• Paul: Admits shame is his “core emotion,” affecting every aspect of his life, and recognizes his work ahead is to make peace with it rather than evade or extinguish it (22:56–24:22).
• Both stress the power of vulnerability and community—being heard without judgment—in softening shame and finding moments of feeling “enough” (24:22–25:44).

What Actually Moves the Needle

• Connection and Vulnerable Sharing:
  Paul describes “baby steps” and moments of relief happening in support groups, meaningful conversations, creative pursuits, and authentic self-care—the experience of being “enough” happens in presence with others, not in solitary achievements (19:18–21:47).
• Kimberley: The act of sharing shame and being accepted by others is transformative, even if it doesn’t erase the feeling instantly (24:22).
• Crucial Takeaways:
  • No one has ever shamed themselves into being the person they want to be (29:02).
  • No amount of achievement brings unconditional worthiness (29:07).

Final Reflections & Encouragement

• Paul: Emphasizes that the work is ongoing, that seeking “completion” or “cure” is its own trap.
• Kimberley: Reiterates that worth is not earned by productivity, money, appearance, or constant self-improvement—everyone is worthy simply for being alive (30:27–31:05).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I'm not enough of the good, I'm too much of the bad.” — Paul Gilmartin (01:59)
• “I feel very whole... while at exactly the same time feeling not enough... They're at the same time now.” — Kimberley Quinlan (05:57)
• “Nobody has ever shamed themselves into being the person they want to be.” — Paul Gilmartin (29:02)
• “No amount of money or looks or check marks... will actually land you on the day where you're like, 'I'm finally enough.'” — Kimberley Quinlan (29:07)
• “There is something bottomless inside my soul that I'm trying to fill, and this is never going to be enough.” — Paul Gilmartin (29:28)
• “You're worthy of unconditional love just because you are.” — Paul Gilmartin (30:27)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:02–02:43: Defining the “not enough” core fear
• 03:08–04:53: How the fear feels & drives compulsive behaviors
• 05:53–07:25: Confidence vs. not-enoughness: They can coexist
• 13:57–14:35: Compulsive productivity and seeking validation
• 15:37–17:17: Costs of not-enoughness—self-denial, self-care examples
• 19:18–21:47: What helps—community, vulnerability, hobbies
• 22:14–24:22: The link between shame and not-enoughness
• 29:02–31:05: Key takeaways: The futility of shame and the moving target of worth

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Final Takeaways

• “Not enoughness” is a root anxiety for many, not just a lack of self-confidence.
• Attempts to “solve” this fear through achievement, reassurance, or denial never truly quench it.
• Progress comes through naming shame, sharing vulnerability, connecting authentically, and accepting oneself as worthy regardless of external markers.
• The journey is ongoing—arrival at perfect “enoughness” is not a realistic or helpful goal.

For anyone struggling with these feelings: You are not alone, your worth is never up for debate, and simply being is enough.

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Transcript

[Kimberly]

There is a fear that sits underneath almost every anxiety symptom I have ever seen. It's not panic, it's not intrusive thoughts. And it's not the worry about health or relationships or whether you've locked the front door. It is this.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

What if I'm not enough? What if at the end of it all, I'm just fundamentally not enough?

[Kimberly]

Not as a partner, not as a

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

parent, not as a person. And here is what makes this fear so insidious. The harder you try to answer it,

[Kimberly]

the worst it gets.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

You seek reassurance, you collect evidence, you build a case for your own self worth.

[Kimberly]

And it works.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

But just for a little while. And then the doubt comes right back. And this time, louder. Today we have Paul Gilmartin. He's the host of the Mental Illness Happy Hour and someone who has sat with thousands of people in their darkest places.

[Kimberly]

And we are going deep into this

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

fear, where it comes from and why.

[Kimberly]

Trying to answer it keeps you stuck

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

and what actually moves the needle.

[Kimberly]

Paul, welcome to the show.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I always, I always enjoy talking to you.

[Kimberly]

For years, you have been interviewing people on the mental illness happier, which is like a very successful mental health podcast, sitting with people in those really honest moments. Is this a fear used, heard other people suffer from?

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yes. And in my support groups as well, even if they don't quite say that, you know, of all the experiences I've shared and heard other people share, you can kind of distill it down to one of three things, if not all three at the same time, which is some version of I don't have enough, I don't do enough, I'm not enough. And. And maybe even a fourth one at the same time, which is, I'm also too much.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I'm not enough of the good, I'm too much of the bad.

[Kimberly]

Yeah. It's like the same. It's a different side of the same coin.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah.

[Kimberly]

And you said that to me in a conversation you and I had privately. You know, this core fear of you'll never have enough. I'm repeating what you said. You'll never do enough and you'll never be enough. And I so deeply resonate with that. You know, just being this, like I said, this insane, insidious fear that just is lurking at the basement of your brain all the time. I hear it in my clients, like, all the time. They might be worried about relationships or career, but there's that underlying fear that I just. It'll never be enough.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah. And. And questioning it. I, I really like what you said and I needed to hear that about looking for an answer. Just feeds it.

[Kimberly]

Yeah. So before we get to that, you've been open, even publicly about your own struggles. What does it feel like? Like, can you kind of give me a little snapshot of what does it feel like in the day to day to have this as your core fear?

[Paul Gilmartin]

Exhausting. You know, there are times that it takes a vacation and it's mostly around my productivity, which I know isn't healthy, that, that my self esteem should not be contingent on how much I'm doing. But there it is. That's is influenced by how other people talk to me or treat me. But I also do go to my support groups and I'm in therapy. And I'd like to think that I'm a fairly emotionally seeking person. I was going to say evolved, but I'm not sure I'm ready to use that word yet. So it's a roller coaster. I have moments where I'm like so at peace with life and everything else and then, you know, I'm beginning to realize that it is the insidious thing that drives my addictive behaviors. Because I'm. I'm not even questioning it. I'm just assuming, yes, I am lazy, yes, I have blown it.

[Kimberly]

You use the word drive and that actually is quite compelling to me because that's how it feels for me too. Like if I was to explain it for myself and I have struggled with this, like I think this was underlying my eating disorder. A lot of what I have done in my life, even though it's created a lot of success, was. Was driven. Like you use the word drive, was driven by this fear that it. You will never be enough. Like it is a driving force. But the. Like. I think that piece that for me, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but if I'm not being driven or driving in that direction, it's like an emptiness for me. Like not enoughness is like empty void of nothingness is the only way I could describe it.

[Paul Gilmartin]

And also kind of itchy, like just restless. You know, there, there's a saying in recovery. Restless, irritable and discontent. And I don't necessarily relate to the irritable so much anymore, but the restless and discontent. I feel that. So when I find something I enjoy, whether it's woodworking or guitar or whatever, or an unhealthy coping mechanism like pornography, I run the wheels off it because, oh, I'm out of the room. That Feels like it's burning. Why would I want to go back in the burning room?

[Kimberly]

Yeah, I think my eating disorder was that unhealthy. Coping with not enoughness.

[Paul Gilmartin]

It's so shocking for me to hear that from you because every time I see you, I always feel like, oh, my God, Kimberly has it so together. She's so peaceful. She's so knowledgeable. She's so pleasant without being phony. She's so real and grounded. And it's a combination of, like, awe and also like, God, I wish you were my mom.

[Kimberly]

But I think that's the funny you saw me. I burst out laughing when you said, like, oh, I'm surprised you feel that way, because I think for me, and this is where it gets complicated, is I'm a very confident person. I feel very whole and fulfilled and enough and worthy, while at exactly the same time feeling not enough and like, I'm not doing enough and like, I'll never be enough. Like, they're at the same time now. And so it's like, for me, it's like, even in my absolute peace with my body, myself, like, like, confident, genuine confidence. Not arrogant confidence. It's still there for me, that.

[Paul Gilmartin]

But, you know, that makes sense. And yet another thing that I needed to hear. And I suppose that's probably why it's good that I downloaded the book, no Bad Parts, and have it. Have it on my reading list. And I have therapy in about an hour and a half, so maybe. Maybe we'll talk about this.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah. It's the concept of two seemingly opposite things being held in our mind or our bodies at the same time was news to me a few years ago. And that we didn't have to arrive at a decision of this was good or this was bad, or this person is good or this person is bad, but there's the light in the dark, and they're actually one.

[Kimberly]

Well, and you bring up a good point is I think that we have maybe. And I'm working this out in real time just so everyone learns. Like, I don't want to seem like I'm, like, an expert in this area. I'm working this out in real time, as you know. I'm guessing we all are to some degree. I used to feel like there was an arrival at Wings. You felt enough and worthy, and that is the goal, the destination. I actually think that that goal slowed down my work in this area. Like, it made it feel like you were not enough because you could never be enough. If that makes any kind of sense.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Right. And it's that very mind frame is the thing that's pushing you backwards, you know, to. To use air quote, you know, whatever backwards means, rather than just saying, oh, this is a part of me that, that, that voice. And it's not something I need to extinguish to move forward. It's maybe something that I need to have compassion and curiosity about, but those are hard for me because I've been a catastrophizer my whole life.

[Kimberly]

Right.

[Paul Gilmartin]

And a people pleaser. Yeah.

[Kimberly]

Yeah. Why do you think and what's your opinion on why some of us struggle with this and some of us don't?

[Paul Gilmartin]

That's a good question. I think some people aren't self aware. I think some people go through life believing that the thing on the surface is actually the thing that's also underneath. Whereas any of us who've delved into therapy or support groups know the thing on the surface is very rarely what it's about. You know, the argument with your spouse about who put the forks away wrong is not about the forks. You know, it's a. It's about a conversation that happened two months ago that was never discussed because we didn't want confrontation or to identify our needs or stand up for ourselves or have an uncomfortable moment. So I think a lot of people really think that when they're pissed off in traffic, that it's just about traffic.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Rather than, you know, for instance, if I get in. In traffic and I'm anxious, which I don't think is unusual, or like sick, if you're feeling like that. But I try to ask myself, is there something more underneath this? Am I afraid of something if I am late, if I don't get there on time, if this takes an hour longer than it's supposed to, is my life going to be ruined? Is my friendship with a person who's, you know, potentially waiting there for me, is that going to be ruined? Will they not be understanding what is eating at it? And all of these things always come back to those. Those three things that may be fundamentally so flawed and lazy and incapable and doing life wrong that I'll never get it, quote, unquote right, and I'll never hit that goal of peace.

[Kimberly]

Yeah, I agree. It's funny, I wonder sometimes, like, is it just us anxious folks who just because we care so much about being a good person and making an impact in the world, is that. Why know? Is it the messaging we got as children? I think the big trap that some people fall in, that I see in my clients is they think that fact that they're having the thought must mean it's true that people who are enough don't have these thoughts because they're enough. And the reason they're having the thought that they're not enough is because they're not enough, which is absolutely not true.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I forget that all the time. And I need people like you, who I look up to, I need to, to hear you talk about your struggles. You know, it's, it's one of the reasons why I started the podcast was because when I found these conversations in my support groups, they were so soothing to me. I looked back at my darkest moments before the support groups and thought, God, I could have used that, hearing that. And I thought, well, why don't I do a podcast that kind of brings comfort to people? And it won't be like, oh, you know, we're, we're teaching down to them. We got it all figured out. It'll be more like a waiting room where people crack up jokes and, you know, cry and laugh and cringe and all the other shit that we, that we did when we're having coffee with a friend or.

[Kimberly]

Yeah, yeah, I think you and I had this, started this conversation because we were just telling about what our biggest fears were, right? Like we're like, what's your biggest fear? What's your biggest fear? And it's like, well, mine's just that I'll never have enough, be enough, you know, do enough. So. Yeah, for sure, Absolutely. Okay, so I think you touched on this already. And I see a lot of people do this. I did this myself. Is we try to fix the fear of not being enough by building confidence, getting people to like us. Having your therapy, maybe focus on self esteem or succeeding in material things or career things, productivity, like these things outside of us.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Kimberly]

I actually, I'll tell you a personal story, which is really funny. Is. And I still have been doing this and my husband laughs when I do it is. I'll say, oh, by the way, I did the dishes. And he'll be like, thanks. Like I have. I was announcing that I did the dishes, not because it was like such a big surprise, but I wanted him to go, thanks, Kimberly, you're amazing for doing the dishes.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I'll. I'll put it on the tote board.

[Kimberly]

Here is your medal for doing the dishes. And. And so it's this product. It's this compulsive productivity to relieve us of our. Not enough. That's for me, maybe not for you.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Oh, no, absolutely. When my girlfriend comes home from work, I'll often, especially if I had a day where I, you know, checked things off the to do list. I can't wait to tell her about it because I have a fear in the back of my head that she's always thinking, wow, how did I wind up with this fucking loaf? You know?

[Kimberly]

Yeah. And so how has that shown up for you in your life? I mean, this is more like we're talking about the cost of having this core fear. Is that it for me? Like, let's. If we did a tally, like it caused me to engage in some pretty bad eating disorder behaviors. It's caused me to work beyond my capacity and cause like a significant degree of exhaustion and even some medical illnesses of. Just because that drive that you talked about before, like, that's something that I think I've done like a lot of sort of maybe even like workaholic behaviors sometimes used to show up a lot. And sometimes I can catch them now even. What does your Italian list look like?

[Paul Gilmartin]

Depression, anxiety, self loathing, a lack of self care. Today I got out of physical therapy and there's this restaurant across the street from it that I would look at every time I would come out of physical therapy and I would say, God, that food looks good over there. I shouldn't spend the money on it. I've got food in the refrigerator. I'm. I'm Going to go home and eat. And I eat probably 95% of my meals at home, mostly for financial reasons, but also because I don't leave like leaving the house. But a little voice in my head said, go take care of yourself. You are worthy of having a couple of breakfast tacos. And I did. And I felt really proud of, of myself for doing that. And I suppose to some people listening, they're thinking what's the big deal? But if you're somebody who doesn't, who isn't familiar with self denial, it's such a sickly comfortable place to be because it feels right. Like, like I'm living right life, right. If I can't accomplish, at least I can deny myself stuff. It's like a backdoor way of trying to make up for the lack of productivity.

[Kimberly]

Compulsive self punishment.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah, yeah, those, those are some of the ways.

[Kimberly]

Yeah, you, you bring a, a really good point there. And I'm wondering, just for the sake of curiosity is did eating out, eating those really lovely tacos make you feel like you deserve them?

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah, it was a moment like of course, why wouldn't I do this? Isn't this why I work and earn money and live my life? To, to have moments of pleasure? You know, especially moments of right sized healthy coping mechanism?

[Kimberly]

Yeah. I've actually heard quite a few clients say the same thing, which is like, let's say you're someone who is hyper productive or compulsively productive to sort of feed that you have to do enough, be enough, you know, have enough. But when they actually rest, they feel more enough like they feel better about themselves than if they were pushing, pushing, pushing like it's, it's counter.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous of, of that. And I suppose they're jealous of the person who can go sit in the backyard and look at the sky. I, I have no problem doing things like that. I feel like my day has too many things. Not necessarily where I'm super present and feeling my feet on the ground and stuff like that, but where I'm just kind of being, it's a little bit in my mind, a little bit too daydreamy, but certainly not go, go, go, go, go. Unless I'm experiencing some hypomania. And then I'll be in the garage making furniture till two in the morning with the tips of my fingers starting to bleed and don't even want to go in and go to sleep because it's just like this glass of water in the desert that I've been thirsting for forever.

[Kimberly]

Right. So interesting how we do that. So you talked about the breakfast burrito in your lifetime and in your journey, like your, you know, your life. What has helped with this not enoughness, this fear that you'll never be enough. Is there anything, you know, of course I'm not cured of this. I would never, you know, I don't think that needs to be the goal. But as we move through this process, what has helped you? What has been baby steps, medium sized steps for you?

[Paul Gilmartin]

I think meaning and purpose through my support, community, through deep conversations. Vulnerability. Vulnerability has really helped because it reminds me that we're way, way, way more than just what we do. That maybe the meaning of life is about the giving and receiving of love and, and feeling connection. And for people who've experienced childhoods where a lot of trust was breached, that can be kind of fraught with landmines, whether they're real or imagined. So when I was forced to stay alive to begin to go to support groups to save my sanity, I discovered it was this beautiful silver lining where I was like, oh, wow, this is amazing. And that little clock in my head that was always ticking, you know, kind of telling me, oh, you're. You're running late for life. You got time to make up. It just. It quiets for that hour and a half when I'm there or when I get off the phone, call with somebody who needed a shoulder to lean on or. Or vice versa. So in those moments, I feel enough. I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. So I try to find things, create that feeling. This is where I'm supposed to be, regardless of money or this or that. My hobbies are another place where I feel that when I play hockey, I feel connected to my body, my masculinity, my male friends. It's when I would work. I feel connected to the analytical part of my brain and the artistic part of my brain. I love the presence that's required to work with your hands, especially around sharp tools. You have to be completely focused when you're working around razor sharp tools, playing guitar. Sometimes it's the only way that I can express melancholy things. I can't find words for. I. I could sometimes on the podcast, I'll say, I don't know how to put into words when I'm feeling, but here's a song that I just wrote and it's just instrumental. But sometimes that's the best way to describe how I feel. So in those moments, I feel authentic. Yeah, I think Doing things that are authentic to me. Even if it's canceling plans.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Because I'm just too anxious or exhausted or filled with dread to go do something that I know is not going to kill me or make me miserable. But oftentimes life leaving out my front door or even just like washing the dishes feels like jumping into a cold pool and like everybody's telling you water's fine.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

And I'm just like, no, it's going to be brutal.

[Kimberly]

Yeah. I think for me it's so linked to shame. It's so linked to just this, like again we use the word insidious like this just underlying tempo, consistent tempo of shame that I. What's been really helpful for me is to actually just call it shame and acknowledge it as shame and be like, oh, shame's here. Like, shame doesn't want me to do that. Like, shame doesn't want me to say that. Shame wants me to be like to isolate or shame wants me to. For me, sometimes just that has been super. I wouldn't say helpful because it doesn't lift anything, but it gives me a little distance.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And you're really good at creating that space for other people. I'll speak for myself. For me to be able to. Because I've shared some God awful thoughts in my head with you and you just are like, oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that with me. And we both kind of laugh together and I'm like, wow, why was I feeling about just thoughts that I have in my head? Why am I judging myself? But I can honestly say I don't think I've ever gone an entire day without some type of. Of shame. I think it is my core emotion and I think that's kind of the next level of work for me to do is to deal with the mean voice in my head and the shame, which seem to go hand in hand.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

And find a way to, I don't know, live with them, make peace with them. I don't know what the words would be for that. But I'm tired of feeling ashamed because it feels so real and. Yeah. And I feel shame about almost every single thing in my life. I feel shame about am I good enough boyfriend? You know I didn't do this, right? Oh, that piece of furniture. I fucked up on it. Or I over shared with that person or I missed my support group meeting and on and on and on. Is so judgmental.

[Kimberly]

Yeah. No. And I think that that's. Those two go hand in hand. I. I will say like, and I. I really want to highlight what you said before is I have found the most helpful thing for the fear of not being enough is in the sharing it. Some of the things that have happened to me that I am most ashamed of. And when I felt the most shame, whether I'd done something shameful or not, wasn't even a part of it, is when I would sit across from a friend and I. I remember saying, I'm gonna tell you something really hard, but then I don't want to talk about it. Right. And it was two friends, and I would share with them and I would tear. And then to. Both of them looked at me and just nodded and held eye contact. And then one picked up her book and the other one picked up her phone, and we. We just went into silence. But for me to be held in, like, I can tell you something and you can hear me. We eventually talked about it. Just. They understood the assignment. Like, they just understood it. And for them, the fact that they just went back to their book and went back to their phone was a. A learning for me of like, oh, people can hold space for me in my crap. Like, I remember when you and I were sharing, and then I was like, okay, let's have a hug. And you were like, oh, my God, you still want to hug me. Like, I relieved.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Oh, man. Sexual shame has. Has been at my core for. Since I was a little boy.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Since I was a little boy.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I'm curious what the shame was if you're comfortable sharing that you shared with your friends.

[Kimberly]

It was when I was struggling the most with my own intrusive thoughts and my own ptsd and. And I think I had. It's funny, we talk about, like, the. The. The facade we build up. I had built a facade with myself that I wouldn't emotionally or mentally hit rock bottom ever again. Like, I was so evolved that.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Do I relate to that I would

[Kimberly]

transcend some like, that I'm sort of. There's an insurance policy on me, and I. It's just impossible to hit rock bottom. And when I did, I felt like I had failed.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah.

[Kimberly]

Because I truly think I had told myself that I had out performed it. Like, I had grown beyond it. And I think that with mental health, like, you can do all the work in the world and still have a rock bottom.

[Paul Gilmartin]

That's good to be reminded of because the mean part of my brain immediately goes to. Well, see, you kidded yourself. You didn't really do the work.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

You didn't really heal. You didn't really take stock of your past and, you know, your foibles and et cetera, et cetera. And I think the other thing I struggle with, you know, I believe in a higher power. I just often believe that it doesn't get me. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't realize I want more fun than it has planned for me, and that my life, that the life it has laid out in front of me is a life of broccoli. And it doesn't realize how much I love pizza. Know what I mean?

[Kimberly]

Yes. Yeah, I know. I think we had a conversation with Drew Linsalata here on the podcast not long ago about how our brains have an exception clause. They're like, no, it's true for everybody else, but I'm the exception. I'm special somehow in not the better way. Like, I'm in the special in the negative direction, which I always resonated with

[Paul Gilmartin]

the same side of this other side of the coin of grandiosity. And they're both ways of keeping us obsessed about ourselves.

[Kimberly]

Yes. And focused on just the neg, the negative.

[Paul Gilmartin]

So, yeah.

[Kimberly]

Yeah.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I think our egos will do anything to avoid the truth that we're one of many. I think it's terrifying. And yet that's where I have felt the most peace in my life. Sitting in a support group meeting and just feeling like, oh, my God, they get me and I get them. This is amazing.

[Kimberly]

And equanimity that we're all the same, that we're all equal in the. In the worth hierarchy. Okay, I have love this. So if for someone who's listening and they may have probably recognized themselves in so many areas of this conversation, is there anything that you would want them to hear or maybe something you need to hear that, you know, that is a main piece of this work?

[Paul Gilmartin]

I would say nobody has ever shamed themselves into being the person they want to be.

[Kimberly]

That's it. And I would add, no one has ever worked themselves into being, like, unconditionally worthy. Right. Like you. There's no amount of money or looks or check marks that you will get that will actually land you on the day where you're like, I'm finally enough.

[Paul Gilmartin]

I used to have this fantasy that. And this was years ago when I was still working in television, I used to have this fantasy when I would drive down Sunset Boulevard and you'd see the billboards for all the, you know, popular shows. And I used to think, you know, if that means you made it, if your face is on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard. And one year, the TV show that I was working on, they put my face on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard. And so I got my car and I drove over the hill and I got out and I looked at it. And in that moment, I lost respect for Sunset Boulevard. And I'm not making a joke. And that's when I realized, oh, there is something bottomless inside my soul that I'm trying to fill, and this is never going to be enough. And it wasn't until I got into support groups years later that I was introduced to the concept of, you're worthy of unconditional love just because you are.

[Kimberly]

Yes.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Just because you are alive and you're a human being.

[Kimberly]

Yes. I resonate with that so much. I talk with clients with all the time with eating disorders because I remember that you would say, I'm enough if I hit this weight, a certain weight, and you'd hit there, but then the target would move and you'd be like, ah, okay, then fine, I'll get to the next step. I'll lose the next, you know, however many. And you really believed your butt off. And then you would get there and then you'd be like, no, the target moved again.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah, I'm still. I'm still restless and discontent. I must need to do the next step.

[Kimberly]

Yes. Yes. Well, I am so grateful you've been and had this really vulnerable but beautiful conversation. I think the truth is it's a. It is a moving target and, and it's a journey, but it doesn't have to be one that is, like, done.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Yeah. I needed to, to hear all this stuff that, that you had to say and the things you've shared with me in our private conversation, it just, it means, it means a lot to me.

[Kimberly]

Thanks for being here.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Please note that this podcast or any other resources from CBT SP should not replace professional mental health care. If you feel you would benefit, please reach out to a provider in your area. Have a wonderful day and thank you for supporting CBTSchool.com.