What's a Safe Withdrawal Rate in Retirement? (So You Won't Run Out of Money) - 519

Summary

Podcast Summary: Your Money, Your Wealth – Episode 519: "What's a Safe Withdrawal Rate in Retirement? (So You Won't Run Out of Money)"

Release Date: March 4, 2025
Hosts: Joe Anderson, CFP® & Alan Clopine, CPA of Pure Financial Advisors

---

Introduction

In episode 519 of Your Money, Your Wealth, hosts Joe Anderson, CFP® and Big Al Clopine, CPA tackle the crucial topic of determining a safe withdrawal rate (SWR) in retirement to ensure longevity of retirement funds. The episode dives deep into multiple listener questions, providing expert insights and practical strategies to navigate complex financial scenarios.

---

1. Nick and Nora’s Retirement Withdrawal Rate Strategy

Listener Profile:
Nick and Nora from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, are planning to retire at ages 56 and 62, respectively. With a combined savings of $1 million and annual contributions of $70,000, they aim for a 30-year retirement lifespan, envisioning retirement spending of approximately $115,000 annually.

Discussion Highlights:

• Joe Anderson addresses Nick’s concern about initiating a higher withdrawal rate due to forthcoming Social Security benefits:

  [04:27] “If you have more money coming in from Social Security or a pension, then you can start out with a higher rate, because when that kicks in, you'll be at a lower rate.”

• Big Al Clopine recommends a flexible approach:

  [05:37] “If you retire around 55 or before 60, you might want to think about a 3 or 3.5% distribution rate. If you retire between 60 and 65, you can approach 4%.”

Insights & Recommendations:

• Flexibility in Spending: Adjust withdrawal rates based on the inflow of Social Security benefits.
• Buffer Allocation: Maintain a buffer (e.g., $10,000) to manage unexpected expenses.
• Partial Withdrawals: Consider supplementing retirement income with part-time work or other income sources to reduce reliance on portfolio withdrawals.

---

2. Doc and Mr. McMuffin’s Comprehensive Financial Strategy

Listener Profile:
Doc McMuffin, a 41-year-old physician, and Mr. McMuffin, a 40-year-old engineer from Minnesota, boast a robust financial portfolio with $2.4 million in retirement accounts, substantial Roth contributions, and a diversified investment strategy.

Discussion Highlights:

• Joe Anderson commends their disciplined savings:

  [14:43] “You're fine, you're good. And they've got keep saving lives.”

• Big Al Clopine emphasizes the importance of covering all bases:

  [15:53] “Make sure you've got appropriate disability coverage and life insurance. And make sure you've got a good emergency fund.”

Insights & Recommendations:

• Insurance: Ensure adequate disability and life insurance to protect against unforeseen circumstances.
• Emergency Fund: Maintain a robust emergency fund to buffer against financial shocks.
• Investment Diversity: Continue leveraging a diversified portfolio to mitigate risks and optimize returns.

---

3. Fred and Ethel’s Social Security Decision Dilemma

Listener Profile:
Fred (55) and Ethel (62) from Virginia possess a net worth of $8 million, including substantial non-residential investments and privately held company stock. They are deliberating whether Ethel should claim Social Security benefits early at age 62.

Discussion Highlights:

• Joe Anderson explains the implications of early Social Security claims:

  [22:52] “She's going to get a 30% haircut for the rest of her life.”

• Big Al Clopine concurs on the reduced benefits:

  [22:55] “She's going to get a 30% haircut for the rest of her life.”

Insights & Recommendations:

• Reduced Benefits: Claiming Social Security early results in permanently reduced benefits.
• Spousal Benefits: To maximize spousal benefits, it's often more advantageous for only one spouse to delay claiming until full retirement age or later.
• Strategic Timing: Assess the financial necessity versus the long-term benefits of delayed claiming to optimize lifetime Social Security income.

---

4. Moonshiner and City Girl’s Roth Conversion and RMD Concerns

Listener Profile:
A couple from Orange Park, Florida, is heavily focused on avoiding Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) and Income-Related Monthly Adjustment Amounts (IRMAA) surcharges. They are contemplating extensive Roth conversions and are concerned about potentially "wasting" current savings.

Discussion Highlights:

• Joe Anderson advises moderation in Roth conversions to stay within favorable tax brackets:

  [33:26] “I would do half of the conversion that you're thinking... stay in the 22% tax bracket.”

• Big Al Clopine highlights alternative strategies and cautions against over-conversion:

  [32:45] “There are some reasons why you don't want to convert everything... you want to fill up the lower brackets.”

Insights & Recommendations:

• Tax Bracket Management: Limit Roth conversions to avoid pushing income into higher tax brackets.
• Qualified Charitable Distributions: Utilize strategies like charitable distributions to manage taxable income efficiently.
• Balanced Approach: Adopt a phased conversion strategy to optimize tax benefits while mitigating risks associated with aggressive conversions.

---

5. Lily’s Son’s Real Estate Investment for Tax Reduction

Listener Profile:
Lily from California inquires on behalf of her 29-year-old son, who has recently started his professional career with an impressive annual income of $750,000. He is exploring investment opportunities to minimize his high income tax liability, specifically considering purchasing rental property in San Diego.

Discussion Highlights:

• Big Al Clopine explains the limitations of real estate tax benefits for high earners:

  [38:06] “In 1986, the passive loss rules limited the ability to write off losses when your income is too high.”

• Joe Anderson underscores the potential cash flow challenges:

  [39:02] “Everyone thinks real estate will give you such a tax break. And it doesn't. It's a good investment... you're going to lose... you have to bank on growth.”

Insights & Recommendations:

• Passive Loss Limitations: High-income earners may face restrictions on deducting losses from rental properties.
• Alternative Tax Strategies: Consider maximizing 401(k) contributions, investing in municipal bonds, and employing tax-loss harvesting to reduce taxable income.
• Real Estate Evaluation: Carefully assess the cash flow potential and appreciation prospects before investing in high-value real estate markets like San Diego.

---

Conclusion & Key Takeaways

In this episode, Joe Anderson and Big Al Clopine provide comprehensive guidance on navigating safe withdrawal rates, optimizing Social Security benefits, and implementing strategic tax reduction techniques tailored to diverse financial scenarios.

Key Takeaways:

1. Flexible Withdrawal Strategies: Adjust withdrawal rates based on income sources like Social Security to ensure sustainable retirement funding.
2. Comprehensive Financial Planning: Beyond savings, encompass insurance coverage and emergency funds to safeguard financial stability.
3. Strategic Social Security Timing: Delaying Social Security can significantly enhance lifetime benefits, especially when considering spousal benefits.
4. Balanced Roth Conversions: Optimize Roth conversions by staying within favorable tax brackets to maximize tax efficiency without incurring unnecessary burdens.
5. Informed Real Estate Investments: High-income individuals should carefully evaluate the tax implications and cash flow dynamics of real estate investments.

Listeners are encouraged to leverage the insights shared in this episode to refine their retirement strategies and make informed financial decisions that align with their long-term goals.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Big Al Clopine at [05:37]: “If you retire between 60 and 65, you can approach 4%. 65% is kind of the 4% rule.”
• Joe Anderson at [22:52]: “She's going to get a 30% haircut for the rest of her life.”
• Big Al Clopine at [33:26]: “I would do half of the conversion that you're thinking... stay in the 22% tax bracket.”
• Joe Anderson at [39:02]: “Everyone thinks real estate will give you such a tax break. And it doesn't.”

---

For more in-depth discussions and personalized financial strategies, visit YourMoneyYourWealth.com to access free resources, episode transcripts, and tailored retirement plan analyses.

Transcript

[Andi Last]

How much do Nick and Nora in Pittsburgh need to have saved for retirement? And how much can they afford to spend? When can Doc and Mr. McMuffin in Minnesota retire? What are the disadvantages to Fred and Ethel in Virginia if Ethel collects her Social Security early? Join Big Al Spitball on these topics today on youn Money, you, Wealth podcast. 519 +, are the moonshiner and the city girl in Florida so obsessed with avoiding RMDs and IRMAA that they're wasting too much savings on Roth conversions? And finally, will the tax benefits on a rent rental property offset the negative cash flow for Lily's 29 year old son who has just started his professional career and is making $750,000? We'll find out. I'm executive producer Andi Last and here are the hosts of youf Money, you, Wealth, Joe Anderson, CFP and Big Al Clopine, cpa.

[Joe Anderson]

Sounds like a good show, Big Al.

[Big Al Clopine]

I can't wait.

[Joe Anderson]

Let's go. Let's get right to it. We got Nick and Nora from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Joe, Big Al, Andy, thanks for producing such a great show in making retirement fun. That's what we do.

[Andi Last]

It's all about you guys making it fun.

[Joe Anderson]

We make fun and make fun. I'm writing in because I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the right way to think about a safe withdrawal rate with a retirement plan that has different phases. First, the fun phase. Oh, first the fun stuff. I thought he was going to say that. The yo go years and the no, no.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, all that. Right.

[Joe Anderson]

I hate those phases.

[Big Al Clopine]

Which one are you in? You're the work hard.

[Joe Anderson]

Go.

[Andi Last]

He's go go all the time.

[Joe Anderson]

Go go, JoJo. Go go. All right. We drive a 2020 Kia Soul, the one that looks like a toaster on wheels. We drink dark roast coffee in the mornings and I like a little Manhattan at night while Nora likes red wine. Okay, now finances. Nora is six years older than me and we're targeting both of us to retire at the same time I turn 56. This would allow us to make a game time decision on whether we could hold off on her Social Security or take it right then if we needed it. Since she'll be 62 when I'm getting tripped up is thinking about what number would make sense for us to aim for in savings before retirement. Traditionally thinking is to aim for a withdrawal rate of 4% for a 30 year retirement or slightly lower or for more years. Nor is planning on living to age 90 and me 85.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay, that's pretty Specific?

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, very. Which means we're looking at about a 30 year retirement. So I would typically think we should be aiming for somewhere about 3.5%, 4% range. However, my Social Security will come into play anywhere between six to 10 years after we started our retirement. It should make for a decent chunk of our spending. As such, I figure we should be able to have a higher withdrawal rate to start our retirement knowing that we'll drop down later. In later years, we expect to spend about $115,000 a year. None of these numbers adjust for inflation. Because my question is about a percentage withdrawal rate. So we can use today's numbers and know that when all of them will need to be adjusted for future based on inflation, North Social Security will cover about $22,000 of that, meaning we will have a gap of $95,000 starting 10 years later, my Social Security will cover $40,000, bringing the gap down significantly. Given that, how would you think about a reasonable withdrawal rate to aim for starting retirement? Okay, this is just so long. I get what he's going at. He's got more to talk about here.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yep.

[Joe Anderson]

All right. For example, if I had a $2 million in retirement funds, that would be a 4.5% withdrawal rate. With a normal retirement, that would be really high. But if we got another $40,000 a year coming down the road, would that be a reasonable rate to start knowing that it will drop below 3 in the future? I realize there's going to be some increased risk by starting with a higher withdrawal rate given sequence of return risk, but I would just be interested in to hear how you would think about a situation like this. We'll have some flexibility in our spending. There's a buffer about $10,000 over current spending rates and about 15 about budget in travel for contents. We have a million dollars in savings right now and we're putting $70,000 a year. Also, I realize any number we come up with today as a goal for savings will need to be adjusted based on inflation. That's why I'm mostly interested in withdrawal rate. And then we can come back to the savings goal. Thank you for any thoughts you share in a spitball in this situation. Nick and Nor from Pittsburgh. Penny.

[Andi Last]

Now I want to point something out through this. They tell us that they want to retire at ages 56 and 62, but they never tell us how old they are now or how long they have to save until they retire at that time. And I did email them back and I asked them, okay, how old are you now? And I haven't gotten a response back.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, so we don't know. It's a. It's a.

[Joe Anderson]

Well, he doesn't care about that. What he wants to know is that he's got a couple of different phases. His wife is older than him. He wants to retire at the same age. She's going to have a fixed income. Ten years later, he's going to have more fixed income. They're going to spend X amount of dollars, and so that withdrawal rate in the beginning is going to be a little bit higher, and then that Social Security dollars are going to come in. That's going to offset some of the withdrawal rate. So he's like, well, how big a chunk can I spend in the beginning?

[Big Al Clopine]

Right?

[Joe Anderson]

He was like, hey, you know, 4.5, 4.7. Is that too much?

[Big Al Clopine]

Well, the answer is maybe we don't really have enough to go on. But I would say it this way, Joe, is that the. When you're retiring, if you retire around 55 or before 60, you might want to think about a 3 or 3.5% distribution rate. If you retire between 60 and 65, you can approach 4%. 65% is kind of the 4% rule. But, yes, when you have other money coming in later, of course, you can have a higher distribution rate for a while. As far as what that rate should be, it just depends upon your numbers. So we can't just give you a rate. You have to do some calculations to figure out what's going to work for you, for you. But, yeah, there's no question. If you have more money coming in from Social Security or a pension. Right. Then you can start out with a higher rate, because when that kicks in, you'll be at a lower rate. So that didn't really answer the question, but I don't know how to.

[Joe Anderson]

I think it's all luck of the draw. I think he knows. He just wants to have the dialogue. The sequence of return risk is the biggest risk that he has. You could take 8% out for the first couple of years, it sounds like, as long as you get probably a 5 or 6% rate of return in the overall markets. But if the market drops 20%, you pull out a little bit higher than 4, you're probably going to run into some trouble. But you have the buffers that you said in regards to travel, and you're buffering another $10,000. So this is where you want to. Yeah, the answer is yes, you could probably spend more because your Social Security is going to come in and cover a Big gap. Think of it this way, is like, what is the Social Security number that you have was like 40,000 for you and 22,000 for her. So that's $62,000. And he wants to spend $100,000. Well, is your buffer 40 grand? If your buffer is $20,000, then you only need $20,000 from the portfolio. If you have a million dollars today, that's a 2% burn rate. So you just look at. All right, what does the number need to be when you turn your Social Security on? Is how I would look at it, in other words. So let's say that the total need from the portfolio, and you don't want to count inflation, so I get that, is that you want to spend $100,000 today, there's going to be $60,000 roughly of fixed income. All right, so there's a $40,000 shortfall at. What's his name at Nick's age? 67.

[Big Al Clopine]

Right.

[Joe Anderson]

Or 66.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, 67, I think, anyway, whatever.

[Joe Anderson]

So let's say it's a $40,000 shortfall@ age 67. So you at least probably want to have $1 million left in your nest egg by age 67, because then that will give you a 4% distribution rate@ that time when you have full fixed income. So from that point on and before, if you want to spend more or less, you can buffer it that way just to make sure that you have that 4% burn rate when both of your social securities turn on and all of your fixed income is. So who knows what that burn rate or the withdrawal rate. Some years it might be really high. Some years it might be pretty low. But that would be my gauge if I was Nick and Nora.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, I actually. I agree with that. It's the time when your fixed income comes in, where you at, what do you need? And you are going to have to factor in inflation to be able to do this properly and then work backwards. But the fact that there's some flexibility, I think the total spend they want is 115, but they've got 15,000 travel and another buffer of 10,000. So I like that, Joe. I like the fact that there's some buffer if things don't go quite as planned. Right. Maybe you do your bigger travel in years where the market does well, and you don't travel as much when the market goes down or stays flat. So you don't decimate your portfolio. So you just have to be sensible about it. Something else I would think about if I'm retiring at this point, With a long period between then and Social Security is can I make some extra income in some other way if I need to? I just want to have that in my back pocket.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. If nick's retiring at 56.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

You work part time and make 20.

[Big Al Clopine]

Grand or something to make it up. Right. Or if nothing else, to make up what Social Security would have been. So you're in the same spot. Right.

[Joe Anderson]

All right. No, really quick question. I like it. So again, this is Nick and Nor. What I would do. Just make your spreadsheet, but count inflation. I get you're looking at whole numbers and you just want to look at a burn rate. I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. Second thought is, I hate using a 4% or 3 percenter or a sustainable distribution rate as a retirement income strategy. You cannot look at it that way. It's really an accumulation strategy of saying, hey, I need to have $1 million if I want to spend $40,000 a year. But by the time you retire and you start taking dollars from the portfolio, I mean, it's a totally different strategy. The 4% rules out the window because you're going to be pulling out totally different percentages depending on what happens in your life, depending on what happens in the markets, depending on what happens across the globe. It's just not that simple. It's not. All right, 4%, you're good. Because things happen in life all the time. Things really good in life happen, things not so good, you just have to adjust as you go. So that's a good ballpark, you know, like kind of rule of thumb. But it's not a rule of thumb that I would abide by to say, hey, I'm, I'm good. Yeah, I'm perfect for retirement and no more planning's needed.

[Big Al Clopine]

And that, Joe, it does work. If there's a flat market.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, if it's perfect.

[Big Al Clopine]

Right. Which, which it never is. The market goes up and down at different times. Sequence of returns mean you retire. Maybe the market goes down for three years in a row. Now you're, now you're changing everything. So you got to consider all of these things. That's why the 4 rule is just. I agree with you, Joe. It's, it's more of an accumulation plan. How much do you need to retire? And then after that, it's like, how can I make this work? What do I need to adjust each and every year depending upon the circumstances?

[Joe Anderson]

Well, what assets are you going to sell to create the income? What's the taxation going to be how tax diversified are you? Should you be thinking about conversions or not conversions? What is irmaa? What I mean, so there's ome there's so many other things I, I, I guess you want to consider. So.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yep.

[Andi Last]

When you shift from saving for retirement to spending in retirement, your entire financial strategy needs to change. Our withdrawal strategy guide will tell you more about sustainable distribution rates, optimizing from which accounts you make your withdrawals and when the impact of market volatility and inflation on your retirement spend down plan and tax saving strategies to make your money last longer in retirement so you can keep more of what you've earned and send less of it to the irs. Just click or tap the link in the episode description to grab your free copy of the withdrawal strategy guide. And if you know someone who would benefit, why not share the show and the free financial resources with your friends, your family and your colleagues?

[Joe Anderson]

All right, we got Doc McMuffin from Minnesota. The homeland.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, your homeland.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, the mothership. Hi Joe, Allen and Andy. And thanks for the great podcast. I've been listening for years and I love the content, humor and great vibes. A 41 year old. 41 year old physician and Mr. McMuffin is a 40 year old engineer. All right, Doc McMuffin. I drive a 2012 Honda CRV with 209 miles and my husband drives a 2015 Chevy truck. She doesn't know what type of Chevy truck it is. It's just Chevy truck.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. That's all you have to say, Chevy truck. We get the idea.

[Joe Anderson]

My drink of choice is Chardonnay or ipa and this is Funky Sour Beer. He drives a Chevy truck. Mr. McMuffin with funky sour Beer.

[Big Al Clopine]

Right.

[Joe Anderson]

Does that mean that the beer he drinks she just doesn't care for? Or is there such a beer called Funky Sour Beer?

[Big Al Clopine]

I never heard of it. I don't know.

[Andi Last]

I have a feeling she's saying that it's sour, so that makes it funky.

[Joe Anderson]

Okay, we have two elementary age boys, no pets. Regarding our finances, combined 401 and 457, $2.4 million. Nearly 50% of that in Roth. Jeez, Good for you, Doc. Combined backdoor Roths are 130. Combined HSAs, 107. Brokerage account, $130,000. Kids, 529 plans, $30,000 each, funded monthly, could cover college cost by then. Primary residence is worth 750. Have $150,000 left on a 3.6% mortgage. All right, I make $500,000 a year. My husband makes around 150. We both max out our Roth 401s, backdoor Roth IRAs, HSA, my pre tax, $457,000, and my husband's bank of backdoor Roth every year, plus $12,000 in the taxable. What possibly could be your question, Dr. McCloffin?

[Big Al Clopine]

They're saving $150,000.

[Joe Anderson]

You're fine, you're good. And they've got keep saving lives.

[Big Al Clopine]

They've got over $2 million to start with.

[Joe Anderson]

It's like, okay, and you're 40. All right, let's keep going here. Despite our high tax bracket, we are in Joe's camp of not missing the tax deduction in love Roth money. See, I'm with you, girl. I work a ton, but love being a doctor. My husband likes his job fine, but is thinking of switching to a more flexible career in the next few years. Our Investments are currently 100% in index fund equities, with 90% being total US market, the rest international. My question finally, doctor. Anything we are missing? Any blind spots we should be thinking about or anything you'd be doing different? I'm not sure exactly what our spending will look like in retirement, but I'd like to be able to travel, order nice wine. I won't be surprised if Mr. McMuffin semi retired by age 45. I'll probably have a hard time hanging it up until I'm close to 60. Thanks for the spitball. You guys are the best. Anything? Any blind spots? No, there's zero blind spots in this overall strategy.

[Big Al Clopine]

None. It looks perfect. I would say three things that weren't mentioned, but they're probably covered. But just in case, make sure you got appropriate disability coverage and life insurance. And make sure you've got a good emergency fund. Outside of that, I just keep doing what you're doing.

[Joe Anderson]

Big Al. Did you get an insurance license?

[Big Al Clopine]

No, but when you make that much money and if your husband retires, then they're dependent, depending upon that. So you got to think about such things.

[Joe Anderson]

Got it. Yeah. She could be like Dr. Strange. Well, you know, hurts his hand, he can't do surgery anymore. Yeah. To go to Tibet or something, right? No, you have no idea. Never watched a Marvel movie in your life, probably.

[Big Al Clopine]

No, I have. I don't. I don't know that part of the story.

[Joe Anderson]

Dr. Strange.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, yeah, I know Dr. Strange.

[Joe Anderson]

So he was a doctor? Surgeon. Really good surgeon. His hands. And then he got in a car accident.

[Andi Last]

Which part of the Marvel universe is this from?

[Joe Anderson]

I don't know. Dr. Strange.

[Andi Last]

Oh, okay.

[Joe Anderson]

I got a three and a half year old that all of a sudden just loves Marvel movies, and so I have to watch these stupid movies over and over and over again.

[Big Al Clopine]

If you would have asked me 30 years ago, I would have talked to you about Power Rangers.

[Joe Anderson]

Power Rangers, Yeah. So, what your kids were into.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

Okay. Andy, what were you into? Scooby Doo.

[Andi Last]

Mr. Rogers. That was my team. Absolutely.

[Joe Anderson]

Neighborhood nice once you be mine.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yep. That's why you're the fine person you are today.

[Andi Last]

I try, you know, Somebody has to be.

[Joe Anderson]

What was the king's name again? King Howl. Something.

[Andi Last]

No, that's Gilligan's Island.

[Joe Anderson]

Well, no, it's Howl. Right. He was an owl.

[Big Al Clopine]

Howl the owl.

[Andi Last]

King Friday.

[Joe Anderson]

No, he was the tree guy. Who was the king? The king.

[Andi Last]

King Friday. Was the king. King Friday.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. It's something Saturday. No. Yeah. Ask me about Little House in the Prairie and I'll kill it.

[Andi Last]

Although I will say somebody pointed out in the comments on YouTube that you said that her sister's name was Debbie. And then at the end, you finally remembered it was Mary.

[Joe Anderson]

Just takes me. It's a process.

[Big Al Clopine]

You'll get it.

[Joe Anderson]

I just got to put myself in the prairie and just be thinking about.

[Andi Last]

Oh, and somebody also mentioned that it was actually Minnesota, and I was shocked that you didn't realize that. Plum Grove, I think. Minnesota.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. I didn't realize.

[Andi Last]

You said it was Iowa.

[Joe Anderson]

Well, okay.

[Andi Last]

Well, it was the Homeland.

[Joe Anderson]

It was a sequel or something. Right.

[Andi Last]

Got it.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay, that's. That's brain. Let's show you a little kinks here.

[Joe Anderson]

I got some kinks in the armor, brother. I'm telling you. Oh, my goodness. That age. All right, we got Fred Nethel from Virginia. Hi. Ymywt. We found the show last year and have been enjoying getting caught up on past episodes. It's been extremely helpful. We like our spitball and strategy for taking Social Security. Here's the details. Fred. He's 55 and is considered retirement around 59 to 60. He drives a Ford F150 Limited King Ranch and is a connoisseur of fine brown spirits, whiskey, rum, brandies in Amarcanyak. What is that?

[Andi Last]

Armagnac.

[Joe Anderson]

Okay. One of his favorites, Armagnac. I don't know Army.

[Andi Last]

I think it's French pronunciation. So I think it's Armagnac.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay, we'll go with them.

[Joe Anderson]

Got it. Fancy Nancy there. Ethel will turn 62 in March and is retired from raising three children. All three are through college and on their own. She drives a Lincoln mkx and prefers good wine in any color. And on any occasion, she drinks a dirty vodka martini. Oh, on an occasion. Okay. Fred. He's a sole income earner. 450 salary bonus and earned 6 earned Social Security benefit at age 70 in 2039 will be $59,000 per year in today's dollars. Ethel has enough Social Security credits to collect on her own at $17,000 per year. At age 62, 24 at 67, 31 at 70. We don't expect to need Social Security to fund our expenses in retirement. We have about $1,800,000 in a 401, $275,000 in an ESOP. Another $150,000 in an IRA commercial real estate partnership of $500,000. Fred's privately held company stock is $3,900,000. Okay.

[Big Al Clopine]

Wow. Okay.

[Joe Anderson]

All right, you go, Freddie. Which he will sell and move into a brokerage account when he retires. Two homes with a mortgage, average 3.25% total equity combined $1.5 million. Okay. Yeah. So you don't need the Social Security. You got millions. So they're going to try to figure.

[Big Al Clopine]

Out how to speak every less easy answer, right?

[Joe Anderson]

It doesn't matter. Okay, so total current net worth $8 million with 6.5 million in non residential investments. So liquid investments, assuming nothing catastrophic in the market or Fred's company over the next few years. The expectation upon Fred retirement at the total net worth of about 10 to 11 million. 8 to 9 in non residential investments when Fred retires. The plan is to live off all the after tax accounts and do Roth conversions on the retirement accounts using the after tax funds to use to pay tax. Here's a question. Conventional wisdom is to wait until 70 to claim Social Security to pay the tax. I mean, claim Social Security benefits, which Fred plans to do. Ethos sponsored benefit when Fred claims will be about $24,000 per year. That combined with Fred's $59,000 will provide $83,000 of Social Security income. We are strongly considering Ethelstar claiming Social Security when she turned 62 in March of this year. We're thinking that income can be used to invest, pay Roth conversion taxes, go on a cruise, et cetera. We would do this for 15 years until Fred claims Social Security and Ethel can switch to her higher spousal benefit. Straight math suggests that this strategy will provide more dollars over the next 15 years than if she waited to claim at 67 or 70. And she'd still be eligible for the higher spousal benefit when Fred Claims his. Does Ethel take Social Security early? Make sense? Are there disadvantages in doing so? Are we missing anything? Thanks in advance for your spitball. Fred and Ethel. Yeah, they're missing a couple key things.

[Big Al Clopine]

What do you think?

[Joe Anderson]

Okay, well, if she claims at 62, she's going to have a reduced benefit. She's claiming on her own benefit at.

[Big Al Clopine]

62, so she'd get about $17,000.

[Joe Anderson]

She's going to get a 30% haircut for the rest of her life.

[Big Al Clopine]

That's right.

[Joe Anderson]

So she cannot claim the spousal benefit until he claims his own benefit.

[Big Al Clopine]

That's correct.

[Joe Anderson]

So she's going to have to wait until Fred is age 70 to claim.

[Big Al Clopine]

The spousal benefit, and she'll be about 76 or 77.

[Joe Anderson]

Okay.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yep.

[Joe Anderson]

The spousal benefit is going to be half of what Fred's benefit is at his full retirement age, minus the fact that she took hers at age 62. So she's not going to receive the full spousal benefit.

[Big Al Clopine]

So that was his benefit had he taken at 67, right, correct. Half of that and then a 30% haircut on that.

[Joe Anderson]

Correct.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. Right.

[Joe Anderson]

So I'm guessing the spousal benefit is going to be lower than her benefit as she took at age 62. If she doesn't take it at 62, then the spousal benefit is going to be higher. But after hearing this, Fred's like, well, she's taking it for sure. If you take the benefit at 62 on her own benefit and invest the money and assume a 6% growth rate. Yeah. You're probably going to make out.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, well, I think so, too, because you get what you get five years of extra money that you wouldn't have had. I mean, yeah, you'd have more on a spousal benefit, but not that much more. I think if you do the straight math, just like you said, Fred, if you. If you factor in the month by month income for those five years, I think you do better just having her go ahead and collect. And I think the second question, should you do Roth conversions? The answer is yes.

[Joe Anderson]

Well, no. He wants to use the money for. To pay the Roth conversion. Yeah, yeah, go on trips. You have $10 million. So, yeah, take it at 62. Go have fun. See, I'm the voice of everyone that listens to the show. When they hear these numbers, I know.

[Big Al Clopine]

They go, this isn't the show for me.

[Joe Anderson]

They shut it off. So then we have to make fun of Fred and Ethel.

[Big Al Clopine]

We just answered the questions.

[Joe Anderson]

Yep, you got $11 million. I would imagine one month of interest on his $11 million is going to be more than whatever he's trying to figure out with his Social Security strategy.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Joe Anderson]

All right, so congratulations on all your success. But, yeah, take her benefit at 62, because I don't think he understands the full rules of that. She has to wait. So, spousal benefit again, if you want to claim the spousal benefit, the spousal benefit is going to be half of your spouse's benefit. So you could claim yours or half of your spouse's, whatever's larger. But you can only claim the spousal benefit when your spouse claims their benefit. And if you claim your benefit early, you're going to have a permanent haircut, either on your own record or the spousal. All right, there you go. Social Security 101 for those. You want to talk about GPO and WEP?

[Big Al Clopine]

No, not particularly.

[Joe Anderson]

Got it. Okay. Some rules have changed there.

[Big Al Clopine]

True.

[Joe Anderson]

Get into that some other day. All right, my main question is, we got the moonshiner in the city, girl.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay.

[Joe Anderson]

Florida, Orange park, fla. He's got a main question, my main question. And then all of a sudden, this is like four pages long, so I don't know what this means. My main question, am I overly obsessed with trying to avoid future RMDs, IRMAA surcharges and RMDs? Is my obsession causing me to waste too much in current savings on Roth conversions? All right. Okay, here we go. Let's see. How long is this one?

[Big Al Clopine]

It's about a page. Good morning, Paige.

[Joe Anderson]

I know what page seven is. Aaron stapled this on me and double sided.

[Big Al Clopine]

It makes it tougher.

[Joe Anderson]

All right, here we go. I'm also concerned about doing nothing. And either of us die with unconverted IRA or TSP on the table, the RMD intact situation will be magnified. I always look forward to your podcast where I listen via SiriusXM. Oh, cool. While working out or working outside, your joyful, non intimidating, informative explanations are the best. Very. Joy Veal.

[Big Al Clopine]

Jovial.

[Joe Anderson]

Joy.

[Big Al Clopine]

Joyful.

[Andi Last]

I like Joyville. That's even better than jovial.

[Joe Anderson]

Oh, it feels like I've had a couple cocktails myself. Joy. Veal. Hearing Andy's welcoming voice is a major benefit. It is a major benefit.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yes.

[Andi Last]

Thank you.

[Joe Anderson]

All right. We identify as blue collar, working class, but feel like the Federal Revenuers. Revenuers. But feel like the Federal Revenuers tax.

[Andi Last]

Us at white collar rates.

[Joe Anderson]

Got it.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay, so they feel like they're paying a lot of tax.

[Joe Anderson]

The irs. The Federal Revenuers. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call the IRS the Federal Revenuers.

[Andi Last]

That sounds like the name of a band. The Federal Revenuers.

[Joe Anderson]

It's.

[Big Al Clopine]

It's clever. It's catchy.

[Joe Anderson]

We're blue collar, you know. Now my mom is like, I'm a blue collar lady with champagne taste.

[Big Al Clopine]

I would agree with that. I met your mom.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. After retiring for about 26 years stretch in the Navy. Oh, thank you for your service. I went to work in the real world. City girl also served in the Navy for 10 years, where we met on the remote British isle of Diego Garcia. Very romantic. She later retired from a civilian career. We enjoy spending time where I grew up in the Appalachian Mountains, visiting vineyards, eating out, an occasional concert. Oh, my God. I feel like I'm reading. Like, you always want people's stories.

[Andi Last]

You want to get into their lifestyle and what they're doing now.

[Joe Anderson]

I gotta go to the British Isles of Diego Garcia.

[Big Al Clopine]

Even this might be excessive.

[Joe Anderson]

We just love walking around the Appalachian Mountains, visiting vineyards hand in hand under waterfalls.

[Andi Last]

He hasn't even gotten to the drinks yet.

[Joe Anderson]

And maybe an occasional concert. Listen to Diego Garcia play the ukulele.

[Big Al Clopine]

I like that. Okay. What do they like to drink?

[Joe Anderson]

Okay. I enjoy a few sips of a good bourbon. A few sips. Okay.

[Big Al Clopine]

Can you do a few sips?

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, I could do it more than that. Elijah Craig, little barrel proof, An Irish black and tan. Or a German Warsteiner Pilsner.

[Big Al Clopine]

Steiner Pilsner.

[Joe Anderson]

All right. City girl prefers an unoaked dry Chardonnay. I drive a 2024 Silverado, and City Girl drives a 2017 Mazda MX5. I also have a Massey Ferguson farm tractor at our getaway location. Oh, they got a getaway location?

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. With a tractor?

[Joe Anderson]

Yes.

[Big Al Clopine]

That's an important fact.

[Joe Anderson]

Yes.

[Andi Last]

I'm just imagining them getting away from, like, a bank robbery or something like that. In a tractor.

[Joe Anderson]

I'm shooting to convert $200,000 to Roth every year from age 66 to age 70. This should keep me within the 24% tax bracket and then the third IRMAA bracket. $200,000 a year.

[Big Al Clopine]

Big Al. That's a lot.

[Joe Anderson]

That's a big chunk of Dell. Our retirement nest egg includes $765,000. Traditional IRA tsp of $705,000, Roth IRA and Roth tsp of $225,000, cash of $25,000, Vanguard mutual fund of $22,000. All right. Out of a habit, I contribute monthly to a mutual fund. A big chunk of the $225,000 in cash will be used to pay the Roth conversions. Our combined cash flows from pensions, citigro, Social Security plus her $24,000 IRA distribution is $126,000 gross of $105,000 or $100,500. We basically just spend it. I plan to delay Social Security until late 2028 when I turn 70 and I expect to receive $39,000 gross or $26,500 net after tax. And IRMAA, TRICARE and Medicare cover most healthcare costs. I turned 67 and Citigirl turned 68. Later this year we both retired at 65 and have good financial security. We do not have children or grandchildren. We recently lost our beloved cat in chocolate lab due to old age and I'm trying not to follow their leads. We're totally debt free and own two properties mortgage free. According to Zillow, our Florida home is 350. And our out of state Montana getaway is probably worth $400,000. The value would be the land, not the old farmhouse. I hope you will consider responding to our situation and that other hard working folks might benefit as well. Thank you Moonshiner City girl.

[Andi Last]

I'll point out that just mountain getaway probably in the Appalachians rather than Montana.

[Big Al Clopine]

And I will clarify because you read that pretty fast. $765,000 in an IRA tsp and $705,000 in a Roth IRA and Roth tsp. So it's about mixed. $700,000, $800,000 each.

[Joe Anderson]

Okay. And he wants to convert $200,000 a year.

[Big Al Clopine]

He wants to get it all out. So he's wondering, is he?

[Joe Anderson]

Yes. Don't. He's overly obsessed. Yes, you are overly obsessed. Go have a cocktail and go under the waterfall of Diego Garcia. Yes, he's totally obsessed.

[Big Al Clopine]

I would agree with that. And here's some reasons why you don't necessarily want to convert everything.

[Joe Anderson]

Because you got a 10%, 12%, right?

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. Well, you got the lower brackets now. Maybe those get filled up with pensions. So we don't even assuming that. So medical, if you have medical expenses down the line, those are deductible. You can pull them out of the ira. You record that as income, but then you get to record the deduction they net out. Right. So if you have it all in a Roth and you pay taxes on money you don't need to pay or what if you want to give money to charity, you could do a qualified charitable distribution Right. Out of the IRA and not pay tax. So there's some reasons why you don't want to convert everything. And maybe even the most important, Joe, is the one you said, which is you want to fill up the lower brackets.

[Joe Anderson]

22%. That's where you go. Moonshiner. 22% is $200,000 of taxable income. Your income right now is $125,000. So you can do. Plus the standard deduction. I would do half of the conversion that you're thinking.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, I would say that's about. Right. About $100,000. Ish. Something in that range.

[Joe Anderson]

Stay in the 22% tax bracket. I don't think you need to go to the 24% because the RMDs are not going to be that bad. He's got 10 years. If he converts 100,000 out.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. For four years.

[Joe Anderson]

If you get all of it out in 10 years, it'll probably pay a lot less tax.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. You can keep going if you want. Right. You can still convert even though you've hit Social Security age. It's just you have a little extra income, so you convert a little bit less. So Maybe you convert $70,000 instead of 100, whatever it may be. Right. So don't think that you have to pay in these higher tax brackets.

[Joe Anderson]

Yep. I get what he's thinking of the widow or the widower's tax. If one were to die, some decent fixed income and they got a lot of money still in retirement accounts. But it's $700,000. He already has $700,000 in a Roth.

[Big Al Clopine]

It's already looking good.

[Joe Anderson]

If it was like $1,400,000 all in the TSP or the IRA or $1,500,000, then I would be like, yeah, $200,000 is probably the number. If he had other income or cash flow to live off of and pay.

[Big Al Clopine]

The tax, I would agree with you.

[Joe Anderson]

So yeah, 22% tax.

[Andi Last]

Does your outdated, tired Set it and forget it Financial Plan Need a complete money makeover? Assumptions you make about your finances can make or break your retirement lifestyle. Will it be bad or beautiful? This week on the youe Money, you, Wealth TV show, Joe and Big Al show you how setting goals, revamping your portfolio and doing a tax turnaround can give your retirement plan the financial facelift it needs. Click or tap the links in the episode description to watch Complete Money Makeover and to download the companion Money Makeover Guide for free. This is a limited time special offer on that guide, so get yours before this Friday as it won't be available again for several months. If you got money questions or want your own retirement spitball analysis, click or tap ask Joe and Big Al in the episode description and send it on in.

[Joe Anderson]

Got little Lily. Lily from California. Hi, my name is Lily. I love your show. Well, thank you. We love that you love our show. I have a question on behalf of my son regarding tax saving strategies. My son's 29 years old, has recently started his professional career and earns an annual income of 750,000 doll as a starting salary. Starting salary. Headache. 29. Yeah, that was me, Lily. 29. 750. What is he?

[Big Al Clopine]

I don't know. Does he work for a private equity firm? Maybe.

[Joe Anderson]

He's single and falls in the highest tax bracket. To reduce his income tax liability as much as possible, he is exploring investment opportunities. He currently has $300,000 in cash on hand, but is not interested in purchasing a primary residence right now as he doesn't plan to stay in his current location for long. The area is remote and not ideal for property investment. Instead, he's considering buying property in San Diego and renting it out. Oh, he's going to be our neighbor?

[Big Al Clopine]

I guess so.

[Joe Anderson]

You know what? He's like a landman. Texas oil. Seen that yet? Big Alan?

[Big Al Clopine]

No, Andy.

[Andi Last]

I haven't even heard of it. Is that a movie or is that on tv?

[Big Al Clopine]

Is that hbo?

[Joe Anderson]

Aaron? All right. It's by far one of my favorite shows. I think of all time.

[Big Al Clopine]

I know every show that you like. I hate.

[Joe Anderson]

So Billy Bob Thornton. You like Billy Bob Thornton?

[Big Al Clopine]

I do, but not all his stuff.

[Joe Anderson]

He's a landman. He goes around. You're in Odessa, Texas. Midland, Texas.

[Big Al Clopine]

Okay.

[Joe Anderson]

But $750,000 a year at 29, I can't believe that. It's incredible.

[Big Al Clopine]

It's great.

[Joe Anderson]

All right, so he's going to buy in San Diego. His mortgage payments will likely exceed $7,000 a month. It might be more than that, Lily.

[Big Al Clopine]

It could be.

[Joe Anderson]

While rental income will range about 4,000 to $5,000, my questions are, will the tax benefits from the rental property offset the negative cash flow? Are there any other potential investment opportunities that could help reduce his income tax liability? Thank you so much. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. All right, you're 29, makes $750,000 W2 wages, I'm guessing.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yep, that's what I would guess, too.

[Joe Anderson]

And so the 401 is probably the only thing that this young man has that's going to save him any ounce of taxes unless he does something exotic that we would probably highly recommend that he wouldn't do.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, and I don't even want to go into those, but there are some pretty weird things out there. But yeah. So when it comes to rental property, 1986 is when Ronald Reagan and his administration passed the passive loss rules, which limited the ability to write off losses when your income is too high. And your income is too high, way too high. Right. Once it's over $150,000, you can't take losses on rentals. What you can do though, is you can take the rent income and you can deduct the mortgage interest against it and property taxes against it. If you still have extra, it'll carry over to the next year, but you cannot create a loss. So, Joe, I would tend to agree with you. 401k is something you could do. Contributions, right. To be able to reduce your taxes, invest in municipal bonds, do tax last harvesting. Right. If you've got investments that have gone down and you sell them against other ones.

[Joe Anderson]

Well, everyone thinks real estate will give you such a tax break. And it doesn't.

[Big Al Clopine]

It doesn't.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, it's a good investment. San Diego real estate is appreciated fairly nicely. Buying a $1.2 million property and so renting it out, you're going to lose. You got to bank on growth. Right. So what do you think that the growth rate is in San Diego and where does he want to buy? If he buys coastal, it's probably going to have a pretty good growth rate, but it's going to be pretty hard to find a $1.2 million property. The west of the five. Are you west of the five? No, you're by me. You're east.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, east, just like you. Yeah, yeah. I'm closer to five, but I'm not west of it.

[Joe Anderson]

Got it. But no, I think that's a fine investment. He makes $750,000 a year. He wants to buy the property in San Diego. At some point, he might want to move here. He has already got the property. The sooner that you can buy into Southern California and some, you know, desirable places, the better.

[Big Al Clopine]

I think so too. And so maybe with an eye towards moving in later. Right. So think about that. Maybe you spend a little bit extra, a little bit more negative cash flow, but it's the place you want to live. I don't know. You take a look, but yeah, you're not going to get a tax write off, unfortunately.

[Joe Anderson]

Lily, I got to know, what does your son do?

[Big Al Clopine]

29, 750 starting salary, venture capital. Firm.

[Joe Anderson]

It does remind me of myself.

[Andi Last]

What was your very first job, Joe?

[Joe Anderson]

My very first job ever?

[Andi Last]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

I worked at a grocery store. Rainbow Foods.

[Big Al Clopine]

Were you making 7.50?

[Joe Anderson]

I was making $7.50 an hour.

[Big Al Clopine]

I actually, I'm a little older than you. My first job, I was making less than $7.50 an hour.

[Joe Anderson]

Oh. That's why I have terrible anxiety. I can't go into grocery stores anymore.

[Big Al Clopine]

Oh, yeah. Because it reminds you.

[Joe Anderson]

Oh, man, it's terrible. Yeah.

[Big Al Clopine]

You want to start merchandising and you're a cart guy.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah, I would push the carts in.

[Big Al Clopine]

Was that stressful?

[Joe Anderson]

No, it was great. You can walk around, you know, pick up carts, say hi to people. Yeah. Then I got promoted, and then I worked in the produce section.

[Big Al Clopine]

Oh, okay.

[Joe Anderson]

That didn't last very long because I wanted to be outside.

[Big Al Clopine]

You're an outdoor guy.

[Joe Anderson]

Yes. Yeah, well, kind of. I don't know, like putting grapes in a. That was just boring. And I hated it. And then you had the lifers, right? The guys that were working the produce.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, that then.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. They were 55 years old. Yeah. They're 60 years old. Old waiting for their pension. They were not Lily's kid making 750 grand.

[Big Al Clopine]

They might have been made more than 750 an hour.

[Joe Anderson]

Yeah. And then. No, I worked two jobs. Then I had a job at the shanty Town.

[Big Al Clopine]

Shantytown?

[Joe Anderson]

Yep. It was a little bar restaurant in Robbinsdale, Minnesota.

[Big Al Clopine]

Oh.

[Joe Anderson]

My father used to go there Friday afternoons after a hard work. A work week.

[Big Al Clopine]

So that's where the bar experience started.

[Joe Anderson]

Oh, yeah. Just. It was like draft beer, only three, two draft beer. So we would hang out. So the family would go. You'd have a few beers and we would have some burgers.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

Then he got me a job there. So I was probably. I don't know, I think 14.

[Andi Last]

And serving beers. Really?

[Joe Anderson]

Oh, I wasn't serving beers. I was mopping floors.

[Andi Last]

Thank you for clarifying that.

[Joe Anderson]

Yes. No, there was. The owner of the place was serving beers. I was mopping floors, cleaning the bathroom. You know? Know. Yeah. Two jobs. Thirteen, I think. Twelve, maybe. I don't know. I was young.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

I was probably breaking child labor law rules back there.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

But I was a. I was a hustler.

[Big Al Clopine]

Maybe it's different in Minnesota. I don't know.

[Joe Anderson]

I started my own business.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

You know, it was mowing lawns.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah.

[Joe Anderson]

Joe. Joe and Ted's Lawn Service. We had like four clients.

[Big Al Clopine]

I started my business at 13, mowing lawns. Too. I. I had one client, but it was steady. Twice a week.

[Joe Anderson]

Twice a week to mow the lawn.

[Big Al Clopine]

I made a hundred. I made $1.50 an hour. That was just amazing money.

[Joe Anderson]

Whose yard were you mowing twice a week?

[Big Al Clopine]

I don't know, but this neighborhood lady wanted twice a week. She was on it.

[Joe Anderson]

Like, my gardener grinds. Me. No, you could come once a week, you know, once every other week in the winter.

[Big Al Clopine]

Yeah, right. Because the grass doesn't grow that much.

[Joe Anderson]

And I don't really have a big yard. Yeah, I'm like, I could do it real quickly, but I got trees. So there's the tree trimming and the leaves and all of that.

[Big Al Clopine]

I have a friend that used to live in Poway, one of the really nice homes in Poway, and this is probably when he was in his, I don't know, late 30s, and he just couldn't stand to pay for a gardener. But it wasn't the kind of neighborhood where you'd get caught mowing your own lawn. So he would get up at 6:30 in the morning on a Saturday with a ski cap and a push mower so it wouldn't be too loud.

[Joe Anderson]

Oh, no. All right, well, congratulations. Good luck. Look us up if your son moves to San Diego. We're right down the street. Andy Lass, wonderful job today. Thank you for everything.

[Andi Last]

Thank you, Aaron.

[Joe Anderson]

Wonderful. Aaron Townsend, folks.

[Big Al Clopine]

Big Al, that was fun. Good job again, Joe, as usual.

[Joe Anderson]

All right, we'll see you guys next week. Show's coming. Your money, you, wealth. Keep the questions coming and, yeah, keep the retirement flowing.

[Andi Last]

Your money, you, wealth is your podcast, and you are awesome. On feedspot.com you've made YMYW the number one in the 100 best tax podcasts, number three in the 50 best retirement podcasts, number four in the 60 best financial planning podcasts, and number 46 in the best money podcasts. And on goodpods.com, you've made YML the all time number one of the top 33 retirement podcasts, number seven of the top 98 finance podcasts, and number 31 in the top 100 investing podcasts. This proves that every time you tell a friend about ymyw or leave your honest reviews, comments, and ratings for your money, you, wealth in Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, and in all the other podcast apps that let you do that, it helps us grow the show. And this show truly would not be a show without you. Thank you so much, friends. Your Money, you, Wealth is presented by Pure Financial Advisors. Schedule a no cost, no obligation, comprehensive financial assessment with the experienced professionals on Joe and Big Al's team at Pure. It's free, it doesn't commit you to anything, and it's a deep dive, not a spitball. Click or tap the free financial Assessment link in the Description, or call 888-994-6257 to book yours to meet at any of our offices around the country, country or online via Zoom, no matter where you are. Pure Financial Advisors is a registered investment advisor. This show does not intend to provide personalized investment advice through this podcast and does not represent that the securities or services discussed are suitable for any investor. As rules and regulations change, podcast content may become outdated. Investors are advised not to rely on any information contained in the podcast in the process of making a full and informed investment decision.