Michael Malice (3:26)

Unfortunately.

Buck Sexton (3:28)

It's bad.

Michael Malice (3:29)

Yeah, I am a dog.

Buck Sexton (3:31)

There was no ASPCA back then in, in, you know, the Russia slash early Soviet Union, but there were all these dogs that were kept in this lab and, and there was a flood and this was when it was, I guess Leningrad. St. Petersburg changed the name a few times. And the dogs were traumatized by this so much so that their conditioning was wiped away and that they had major changes in behavior from the trauma of slowly but surely as the water's rising and left thinking that they're all going to drown in these cages. And that sparked a whole lot of interest and pursuit of trying to figure out ways that you could direct this or you could make people. I mean it leads directly to, or rather this, this idea. You have the new Soviet man, you have Maoist thought reform, right. Which people we call brainwashing because of Edward Hunter. But it's really thought reform in China and a very systematized process. And again in some of the historical places where this has been like the turn coats out of North Korea. These Americans who were going on radio and going on, on media and saying, you know, that they did terrible, like we did terrible things in Korea that we didn't actually do anyway. And then I get into some of the cult stuff and you know, sort of take it through to the modern. What the hell is going on around here? Why are people so insane? So that's the basic idea for the book. And yeah, I thought. Did I send you, I thought I sent you. Didn't I send you the PDF?

Michael Malice (5:02)

No.

Buck Sexton (5:04)

Well then I will have to send you the PDF. I read your book.

Michael Malice (5:07)

I don't want the PDF, I want a signed copy.

Buck Sexton (5:09)

I like you're having on your show. I have to say it's very, it's very high praise. When I was going through with my PR team like what shows I should do, I said, oh my friend Michael Malice, they're like his audience is smart and buys books. You should do that show. That was what. I swear. Swear that was what they said.

Michael Malice (5:25)

It's true though. I, I do as much as I can to Alienate the illiterates and the unintelligent and the employable, unfortunately. So two out of three ain't bad.

Buck Sexton (5:32)

I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. That was actually what our like team gathered together, like, oh, do Malice's show. They're smart and they read books.

Michael Malice (5:39)

That audience, I, I, I have to say I was expecting you to have a different pitch, and I agreed with pretty much every word you just said. The question I have for you, though, is one. When I was writing my book, Dear Reader, about North Korea, one of the things I realized is people often use the word crazy when they mean I can't explain this person's actions or thoughts. And very often what someone is acting, quote, unquote, crazy, other than like someone who's literally mentally ill, they're actually following a certain pat pattern of logic that validates or furthers their agenda in some capacity. So the question I have for you is, you know, I think it's, and I'm confident you agree, but I don't hear your thoughts on it. It's not just simply a matter of delusion. It's a complicated relationship between, let's suppose the media and the political class and people on the left who are Democratic voters or operatives. It's much more nuanced than simple brainwashing, I'm sure you'd say.

Buck Sexton (6:37)

Well, yeah, there's, and I try to, when I get into, I mean, there's brainwashing, indoctrination, propaganda. I try to separate things, these things out. I mean, all of these things bleed over into each other. There's a lot of similarities. I tried to look at is look at it through the lens of like, a specific tactic, a thing. Right. Like, what is a, like what is, what is meant aside. What is the process of thought reform? How does it work? Isolation. Why does that matter? Forced phobia? Why does that matter? Identity construction. Like creating this narrative for a person of who they are that they can place over the things that have been. Yeah, so, so it's, it's, it's a little bit. In some ways, it's almost like a brainwashing handbook because it goes through the specifics of how this goes. But I do think there's something fascinating with, for example, Robert Lifton. I mean, there were a few psychiatrists from the last hundred years that I relied on very heavily, like their work and, and their, their body work for this, for the research. And Robert Lifton went and interviewed a whole bunch of people who were, well, some Chinese, but also Westerners who were seized in Maoist China and were put through the absolute most sort of methodical and, and harsh thought reform, which is basically a. For, it's, it's imprisonment slash indoctrination. Almost like you're in a school, school situation where you, you know, you, you have all these people that are telling you, but just even things like the role of confession in this. And like, confession is so important.

Michael Malice (8:18)

Yes.

Buck Sexton (8:18)

Why is getting you. And, and so I look at this, I say, well, if confession is so important when they already have you in a cell and they could kill you and no one's going to do anything about this, they can already beat you with truncheons as they are. But why is getting you to confess over and over again, by the way, such an important tool of, of mind control? And, you know, then I, then I get into, you know, the left today, for example, and I'm not saying that they have us all locked in cells in Mao's China, but getting you to confess your privilege, for example, or getting you to confess your sins as a, you know, there's, there are tactical threads for the manipulation of people and then of course, the manipulation of masses that I think people need to have a better understanding of. And like I said, it really comes from. I remember you and I talking during COVID I was doing your show. I'm like, people look at me when I say, why, why are you telling me to put a mask on, to walk to my table? And then I sit there for two hours eating dinner without a mask on? Like, why don't you realize that's moronic? And they thought I was crazy. And this was widespread. So there's something that you can do to people's minds that, that can be done maybe to their minds that I think we need to have a better understanding of. And actually, I think you might find the last chapter, and it is on me. I should have, I should have sent you the books. I actually think you would like it. I'm not going to send you. I'm now going to send you a signed copy of it. The last chapter I get into it used to be, well, what do we know about psych? What do we know about coercive psychiatry? And, and the ability and sort of police state tactics? And how does, how do those things come together? Increasingly, it's going to be we can create this alternative reality through artificial intelligence, maybe even through brain implants. I mean, that's even further down the line. But that's not, that's not completely in the realm of science fiction now when you'll be able to start to affect the actual structure of a human brain to bring about certain. Certain thought processes. And so I think more than ever, this is something that people really need to be aware of. I mean, in a sense, it was spurred by Covid, but obviously it goes. It goes far. It goes far beyond that. I mean, like, how is it that all these libs, like women mommies who live in Santa Monica, think that 15,000 black men are killed by cops every year? And, like, this is like. You ever see this data? It's like, this stuff is crazy. But even when you tell them it's crazy, they say, no, it's not. I believe this. And it's. There's. There's a whole machinery of, this is what you have to think. This is what you have to say.

Michael Malice (10:54)

Or. Or then they'll say, the number doesn't matter. The point remains. Yes, they're. Martin Bailey.

Buck Sexton (10:59)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (10:59)

Yeah. So it's.

Buck Sexton (11:01)

I'm directionally. Directionally true, I think.

Michael Malice (11:03)

Right. I'm frankly delighted to hear you say this, because one of the points I made in my book, the New Right, is that people on the right need to start focusing on tactics and not on the given arguments of the moment, which are basically tissues to people who are trying to increase government power. They don't. It's what they say. The thing is, it's not really about the thing. There's so many people are interested in climate change and global warming because it gives them a really great backdoor to have control over literally every aspect of your environment up to and including the toilet. And in fact, Margaret Thatcher, hardly a lefty, was the one who brought in climate change stuff into the British government. So when people are realizing, oh, it's not really about transgender people in bathrooms or this, it's like, what can I use? What truncheon do I have at the moment that will allow me to increase my power? How do they use these truncheons against innocent people or people who are not politically active one way or another? That is really, I think, the approach. So to hear you having this handbook to break that down, I think is just superb, because I would from the title, and I owe you an apology. I underestimated you. I thought it was another one like, oh, my God, the leftists are out of control again. I'm like, that book's been done. This is the kind of book I think that there needs to be more of where it's like, they don't care about the climate in Two seconds, it would be like, oh, we need to have global warming because the, the, the first people in Canada are too cold. You can hear them saying in two seconds, it doesn't matter.

Buck Sexton (12:43)

Look, first off, I appreciate that and I would say that that absolutely gets to a recurring theme that I have in the book. So, for example, in the chapter on menticide, which is a term coined by just Meerloo, who's a psychiatrist from the Second World War who was operating in occupied Holland and he was trying to evade the Nazis, actually changed his name as part of that, and then found himself working with the Allies and debriefing Nazis. So got to. And understand a bit of, a bit of how they did what they did at the kind of mass psychological manipulation level. But he, he talks about menticide the way you kill the mind and the. There, there's. The two things like the twin pillars are confusion and degradation. So you have to keep people confused all the time, meaning that you constantly change the words that are being used, the concepts that are being pushed, what the value system is. And then degradation, which is get them, you know, get people to say things that they probably think are untrue or know. Knows that it's untrue. Get them to be a part of things that go against their prior or their, their earlier, you know, value system. So you keep them confused and keep them degraded, and then you can start to get people to do absolutely anything. And then as, as far as the, the way that this progresses and how the big issue straight out of Alinsky, by the way, I mean, Alinsky has some, I remember the exact quote, but it's essentially like once you get people mobilized against pollution, the next step is, you know, political pollution, and the next step is economic pollution, which is, you know, Marxism. We did more, you know, it's just once you get people all chanting and marching and doing all this stuff, it's a lot easier to move them on to anything else. And so on the issue of like the transgender stuff, for example, which I think is a very clear case of, Of a mentic idol progression, there's a reason why they push this stuff. The, the hardest place for them, I think, to make their case is in the transgender surgery for minor stuff, you know, or, or the hormones for minors. That's where it's like, that's where you really. But they want to do this, and there's a whole bunch of reasons why one of them is they. Part of the belief is that this is a, an innate. Even though it's A clearly a mutable characteristic because it is something that has changed from when they were, you know, assigned at birth or whatever. But the idea is that this is intrinsic to who they are. And so the earlier you can show that, the more valid it becomes. But even beyond that, and this, I think is, I think more to what we're just talking about, it gives the state the ability to come in and really supersede the relationship that parents have with their.

Michael Malice (15:33)

Right. That's the key.

Buck Sexton (15:35)

Which is where. That's where it gets really scary, which, oh no, you're going to trans your kid or we're going to take your kids from you for, for their own good. So that's very hard thing for a government to pull off without people running for the pitchforks.

Michael Malice (15:47)

So two things. First of all, that phrase assigned at birth, I'm reading Andrew Doyle's book right now, the End of Woke, and he makes the point even that's not even that's a lie because the child's sex is often determined before birth. So you know, someone's having a boy or girl. So even the phrase assigned at birth is not factual. Even if you're going to accept that whole crazy premise. I had this big epiphany. I, I talked. I just realized this on a live stream I did yesterday and it's a little bit off topic, but I just want to say this as many people as possible. I've made the point in trigonometry that this trans in kids is often a form of Munchausen by proxy. That if you give awfuls affluent white female liberals a chance to increase their status and be a trans mom very quickly, a little boy who played with the Barbie, you know, Corvette, now we're going to get him on hormones. Oh, he's really a girl. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's kind of horrific to see. And you see what's happening. Maid is now in 14 states. Assisted ending of termination. It's in Canada now. They're bringing it over to depressed people in Canada, trying to bring in disabled people. What happens when you have that option for kids and that mom gets to be like, oh, you know, he was such a lively young boy, then he got all depressed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you're telling me this is not something that can't be happening within 10, 15 years, you're the things that are happening now. 10 or 15 years ago you thought would have been crazy. So that is something I'm worried about on the horizon that no one's talking about. And I think what, I'm glad you brought up Mao and some of these other organizations because I think what concerned is not you, but conservatives don't appreciate. One of the reasons I wrote the white pill is the nature of evil. It's not just like we're going to raise taxes and give welfare to people who don't deserve it. It's not, oh, we're going to, you know, let an immigrant so they can vote. It's a level of depravity that I think not all leftists, of course certain conservatives can't wrap their head around because like you said, they would never enter their head. I'm going to lock someone in a cage and beat them until they say Ronald Reagan's the greatest president ever. Like what would be the, you know what I mean, for their heads? Like what would be the point? It seems just such a waste of energy, but. So it's hard to empathize with that kind of strategy.

Buck Sexton (17:59)

Yeah, I think that understanding it from a, from a tactical perspective is critical because it also, I think sometimes the, the ends that they describe as what they want can often be a smokescreen for what's really going on. I mean a perfect example of this is on the, I have a whole section on the immigration issue as well where we've just in the most fundamental ways been lied to about the realities of mass illegal and in some ways legal immigration too in this country. But specifically illegal immigration for my entire adult life. I mean, I can speak to that. The idea that Democrats wanted this so badly because we needed these workers who were doing the jobs that Americans won't do and like we would basically have a non functional economy without them and that there's no drain on the public treasury or anything like that. So essentially you can bring in an unlimited amount of non English speaking people from the third world of no educational background or particular skill set and your country will get richer all the time. That, that just doesn't make sense at any level at all. And some people have started to point out rightly, if, if the, whatever it is, you know, 20 of Honduras that has come to America in the last 20 years was making, is making America so rich, why weren't they making Honduras rich? I mean right now that's a little, I understand that's a little bit cheeky, but it's, there's, there's a reality to the cost that people see with these things, but it's also about, and this is the part of it that's like the, there's what they say, which is doing the jobs Americans won't do. It's also about the changing of American demographics, changing the congressional district so that you have greater concentrations of illegals in these particularly blue areas that are then going to give them more congressional seats. And it's about turning this into a one party country over, over a period of time where you're going to have certainly the children of illegals are going to be like, well, the Democrats are the party of my parents. And therefore, and so, you know, ergo, and that's, that's the real plan, that's the real strategy. It's not because we need people to pick our fruit. Like we can actually figure that out. That actually can be done.

Michael Malice (20:12)

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Buck Sexton (23:29)

was, but yeah, it wasn't Honduras. It was something like. But it was some one of those countries down there. I'm just, you know, I was throwing out.

Michael Malice (23:35)

I just want, I want, I want to point this out because this has become a talking point in the. Right. So as soon as I heard it, I'm like, wait a minute, this is crazy. There was some Central American country. 20% of the population came here, which is like, holy crap. But then I looked it up and I think the country's population was like 300,000. So it was like 60,000 people came here. It's like, oh, okay, like 60,000 in terms of 10 million is hardly. Although it's obviously going to be enormously impactful in the home country. In terms of the problem here it is. Is that not all.

Buck Sexton (24:03)

That's probably. But in this case the point is merely, you know, they're not sending us their best necessarily. Or rather the people that are coming in illegally.

Michael Malice (24:11)

Right.

Buck Sexton (24:12)

I mean there's so, we're so willing in this country because of the, particularly the media. And one of the things that I took from your show actually years ago, I did this with you said don't call them the mainstream media. I've actually, I agreed with you and I've made that. I still don't feel like there's a corporate media. Corporate press is probably the closest. Yeah, yeah, the corporate press is probably the closest. But they, they ran this whole campaign too of really denigrating Americans as part of the uplift of, of illegals. Meaning the talking points were things like illegals are harder working and more law abiding and all this stuff. And it's like really? And. But the answer of course is that's not really true. But the point is.

Michael Malice (24:55)

Hold on, hold on. The answer is. Who cares? I don't care. Yeah, okay. Like that's why I said on Rogan last week, I'm like, if it's 10 million homemakers, is that going to have no impact on America? What are you talking about? Like it's, it's a complete red herring in my opinion.

Buck Sexton (25:11)

Well, we, we've also run, we've seen the experiment run now and you've seen a number of European countries too, where I mean, it turns out if you take Belgium, and again, I'm making up numbers, but just, you know, if you take Belgium and you add, you know, 5 million people from the Middle east and, and sub Saharan Africa into Belgium, like it's a different country, which is the most obvious thing in the world. But we've been led to believe that's not true.

Michael Malice (25:35)

It's even simpler. You take a million New Yorkers and put them in Texas or put them in Florida or a million people in California and put them in Louisiana, that's not going to have an impact. Like what are you even talking. You know what I mean?

Buck Sexton (25:47)

It makes no sense. It is, you could say, a delusion.

Michael Malice (25:53)

I mean, in all fairness, I mean to be a little pedantic, in a valid sense, it's a, it's a just a lie. It's just a complete, you know, that's the other thing that I think is tricky and I like to pick your brain. I think a lot of times conservatives Think, and I like that you use the word delusion that leftists are lying with a straight face. And if you look at things from an evolutionary psychology point of view, and if my status is based on passing within a certain socioeconomic structure, it's evolutionary advantageous for me to lie about it, but also to lie so well that I believe my own bs. So I think a lot of times consumers get frustrated because you sit them down, you're like Ross Perot with the charts and graphs, people are going to come around to you. There's no incentive for me, if I'm in New York as a high status leftist to start going against my pack. Even if what I'm saying is true, how will that help me? I don't have the power to impact policy, but I do have the power to lose my job. And everyone in my office look at me like a MAGA freak. So the incentives really align with me smiling and nodding.

Buck Sexton (26:58)

Yeah, that's totally true. I, I'm fond of pointing out to fellow conservatives or right wingers, whatever, every time that someone on CNN or any of the, you know, the View, any of these places take some position that is manifestly dumb and proven wrong the next day.

Michael Malice (27:17)

Right.

Buck Sexton (27:17)

Like I bet this, you know, the shooter yelled Allahu Akbar, but I bet he was a MAGA hat where, you know, it doesn't matter, like however dumb it may be, be and how obviously false and then the next day it's proven wrong or something else comes out, it turns out that like their crazy thing is not accurate. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Michael Malice (27:33)

No, I'm just laughing because I can imagine them saying he was yelling Allahu Akar but didn't you know that means God is great. Are you saying God isn't great?

Buck Sexton (27:41)

Yeah, whatever it is, people say, oh, they're going to be so embarrassed. And I have to tell everyone, like they're not embarrassed. That's their job. Their job is to tell the idiots who listen to them exactly what they want to hear. And as long as they keep doing that, and this goes directly to your point, they keep their job. Their, their job is not to tell the truth. And you know, whether it's the corporate press or you look at these different entities out there, their job, there is no expectation actually even of being accurate or telling truths that are, in fact, a lot of the time the, the left really takes a position that

Michael Malice (28:17)

there

Buck Sexton (28:17)

are things that are true that should be rejected just because they're so hurtful or harmful.

Michael Malice (28:22)

Right.

Buck Sexton (28:23)

So, so this, so, so the notion of truth is something that itself is as. As it, like, definitionally is under assault by the left. But yeah, of course, the people that are. That think that there's going to be some ethics, all of a sudden that comes into play. Like when. When they defame somebody, whether it's like the. Remember the. What was the school? I forget the school. Was it Covington Catholic, where the kid.

Michael Malice (28:46)

Yeah.

Buck Sexton (28:47)

You know, when. When they all attack him. Whatever.

Michael Malice (28:49)

They.

Buck Sexton (28:50)

They do this because that's what their audience expects. They don't feel badly about this.

Michael Malice (28:54)

Right.

Buck Sexton (28:54)

They're attack dogs. Attack dogs attack because that's what they've been trained to do. They don't. They don't think beyond that. And so this is the way that when people. I think when people understand that that's how the media functions, they're never surprised and they can anticipate what the reality of it is and what it is going to be like going forward. So, yeah, that's. That's how I see.

Michael Malice (29:16)

I. I'm just giddy to hear how you're talking. I'm not gonna lie. Because, like, this is just like. Like, I agree with everything you're saying. I'll give another example, which is just this past week, Stephen Colbert, who is one of this. I mean, he is so salty. He could play Ursula the sea witch. Because it's just amazing how salty he is, you know, the poor. And he's been the biggest victim since Christ. I mean, just ask him. Like, it's. He can't even handle how much he's been martyred. There's a. Next week or a couple weeks, there's going to be a primary for Texas Senate, and there's two, I think, two or three candidates. On the Republican side, the sitting John Coran, who's the sitting senator. You have Ken Paxton, Attorney General. There's a third guy. I'm blanking his name. I don't want to. Do you remember who I'm talking about? He's.

Buck Sexton (30:00)

Everyone blanks his name, including me, but yes. And then. And then you got Talarico and Jasmine Crockett on the Democrat side.

Michael Malice (30:06)

So Colbert decides to have Talarico, although Jasmine Crockett is. Of those five people, I'm sure you would agree Jasmine Crockett would clearly be the most entertaining to have on a talk show.

Buck Sexton (30:19)

And with the best ratings by far, clearly.

Michael Malice (30:21)

Yeah, absolutely. And clearly just the best talker. Like, she knows how to run her mouth. Like she puts on a show. It's very clear she knows how to put on a show. Nope. Colbert decides to put his finger on the scale, have Telorico on and not her and not have any of the Republicans, the FCC and, and more importantly, his parent company is like, look, this is going against kind of fair play rules. Like we, we're not trying to be picking sides between parties and within a party and he loses his mind. And it's like, it's not your house. You work for cbs. Nope. Like I am. He, like, it's more important not. I'm not here to put on good show. I'm not here to promote CBS or get ratings. I, I'm here to promote a certain candidate at the expense of others. Which is fine if that's your approach, but don't pretend that's not your approach.

Buck Sexton (31:07)

Well, this was always my problem with cnn, by the way, and a lot of these places was that. And why I don't have a similar problem with Fox News, which is that there is an understanding that they are right of center at Fox. Right there they have conservative hosts. Like Sean Hannity does his show at night and he's like, I'm a conservative, I'm a Republican. Here's what I think, take it or leave it. But I'm a conservative, I'm a Republican. There's an inherent honesty in that. Jake Tapper, Anderson Cooper, go down, list all these guys, they'll say, no, I'm a journalist, I don't have it. Which is just. And they, the fact they pulled this scam off as long as they did is preposterous.

Michael Malice (31:46)

Well, hold on, hold on, hold on a second. It's not, I don't think it's preposterous. Leftists don't think they're leftists. They think they're normal.

Buck Sexton (31:53)

Well, that's, I mean, they think they're normal Democrats. I think they know that they vote. Anderson Cooper has voted Democrat every year of his life.

Michael Malice (32:04)

They think, and Mars has been explicit about this. Normal people are Democrats, the other side are freaks. Now we could, we as normal leftists can disagree about Medicare for all immigration, so on and so forth, but our range of opinion is somewhere in this space and anyone outside of it is a freak. Maybe they're interesting to talk to in a certain sense, but we're not really seriously going to impose it or implement any of those positions. That's the mindset.

Buck Sexton (32:31)

Well, they, I agree with you, that's the mindset, but I don't think that, I think that also they believe that within that mindset, that framework that you've described is being a Democrat. So the idea that they're not so, I mean, but so what I'm saying is that at least like Sean Hannity goes on and says I'm a Republican and you know, these other guys go on their shows, whatever it is, you know, CNN a little less at Ms. Now. I love that they had to change the name because the brand just got so toxic. But Ms. Now they won't, they won't say that they are, that they have any political affiliation whatsoever. Now you're right about where they think their ideology is. Sure, yeah. Of course they think they're just like normal and smart and everyone else is nuts. But they don't even have the self awareness to be like, well I vote Democrat in every election. So like how, how can you be honest with the public when you can't be honest with yourself about where your politics, where your politics this is.

Michael Malice (33:21)

Wait, hold on. I think we might be disagreeing here because this is Mars point. Mars Mara is saying, not that he always votes Democrat because he's a partisan, he's saying he always votes Democrat because they're directionally the only people who are remotely close to the sanity.

Buck Sexton (33:40)

I, I hear you. I mean I think that's kind of circular logic. It's kind of the same thing.

Michael Malice (33:43)

Right.

Buck Sexton (33:43)

If the only sane people are Democrats.

Michael Malice (33:45)

No, no, it's not because you are a Democrat. No, they would say if there was some third party which you know, implemented their views even more, they jump ship in two seconds. And I think that's truthful.

Buck Sexton (33:56)

But that's true of any, I mean any, any the Republican Party could change all of its platform next year. Like I'm, you know, like that's, that's a theoretical, that doesn't really affect the current reality which is that of course they're Democrats.

Michael Malice (34:07)

They're not working in reality, they're working in theoreticals. It's my point. So this is what they tell to your point about delusion. I'm trying to make your case. MFer. The delusion is I'm not a partisan Democrat. I'm a normal person. And being a normal person means I have to vote Democrat because that's the only option on the table. That's how. And but Sean Hannity is just a Republican partisan hack who is promoting the Republican Party even though he knows full well how screwed up and awful it is. That's their thinking.

Buck Sexton (34:39)

That's what they, that's what the left.

Michael Malice (34:41)

Sure.

Buck Sexton (34:42)

That's, that's, it's a, I see the nuance that you're saying about how they're not really Democrats, they're just normal. And it just so happens that all Democrats. But that's a very. That's really.

Michael Malice (34:56)

That's how delusion works.

Buck Sexton (34:58)

Yeah, that's true. That's true. You know, delusion is actually a very. I got into this too, and I learned a lot about. I'm taking this in a slightly different direction, but some of the research that I did, by the way, there was. They had to cut. I wrote like, initially just on all the Pavlov stuff because I thought Pavlov's relationship. And I thought you would think this is interesting. His relationship with the Soviets was fascinating because the Soviets, on the one hand, first of all, he almost like starved to death at one point because they screwed up so badly when they initially took over and there was no funding for anything all of a sudden, and, you know, there's famine and it's complete nightmare and. And then they realized, well, we have this Nobel laureate scientist. We should probably like, not let him starve on the street. That's a. That's a. That's a rough look, you know, like a dog. Like. Yeah, like. Like a globally famous scientist to just like, you know, right. Wither away and die on, like, the outside of Red Square. So they. So then they started funding his labs and stuff, but he would talk smack publicly about. About the Soviet and the communist system in a way that, I mean, certainly around his era, we're talking like 20s, 30s, I don't know anybody else that was getting away with that kind of stuff and really had very harsh work. They made me pull this out of the books. It was just getting too long. But he was this rare guy who was, on the one hand, very critical of the Soviet system, but also benefited from it considerably insofar as they funded his labs and his research and Kultushi and set up these places for him to do. Do his stuff. And so I think he had to make that. That calculation of what I'm doing is important enough for humanity that even if I have to deal with some really unsavory people to, you know, to get my research to continue. In this research, you know, he was trying to figure out ways to improve the human condition. Right. So there's a lot of ways that you can justify these things yourself. But he recognized that the Soviet project was just lies and butchery and madness. So I thought that part of it was really interesting. But on the psychology side, I started doing deep dives into this because I used to have this smug idea that I would share with people. Which was true. Which is that every hot crazy girl in college was a psychology major, which I'm just going to tell you for the gentleman out there, it's true. Okay, but all the hot crazy chicks were psych majors and there's probably a reason for that. But I think that people should learn more about this stuff because so many of the problems that you have to deal with, everything interpersonally, family office, goes to different levels of these personality disorders and problems.

Michael Malice (37:27)

Oh yeah.

Buck Sexton (37:28)

And like narcissistic personality disorder, which is very common among, really makes sense when you understand the disorder. Some very powerful and, and influential people too. But narcissistic personality disorder is an incredibly, it's like a brilliant mechanism of constant self aggrandizement at the expense of everybody around you. And it's a, this is in the DSM 5. It's a real thing that people have. And I think it goes under kind of the cluster B or borderline.

Michael Malice (38:00)

Yeah, dark triad.

Buck Sexton (38:02)

Yeah, yeah. And, and NPD is like, if you're dealing with somebody with npd, good luck.

Michael Malice (38:09)

I'll, I'll give you an example of this. When Hillary Clinton was running for Senate in New York in 2000, she was running for the seat of retiring Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. And she goes to visit him and she's first lady at the time. She has no political position at all in a literal sense. And she's talking to Moynihan's wife and she's like, oh, I've got this bill in the Senate and it's going to do such, such and such. And the wife either looks at her, I think she looks at her, she goes, hillary, that's Pat's bill. Like it was Daniel Patrick Moynihan's bill. So it's just like first of all, the insanity of a First lady having legislation makes, makes no sense. But also she'd even have the wherewithal. The thing with narcissists is they're kind of oblivious to who they're talking to often. And that's where they trip up. They're constantly on the megaphone. I, I, I, I was talking to friends of mine in the Libertarian Party and Trump spoke at the libertarian convention in 2024. And some things they cheered heavily on, some things they booed him on a lot. And I asked what was it like? You know what he said? They loved me. Because he only he'll hear the cheering and he won't register the booing. And frankly, if you're going to have that kind of job as president, you have to have a screw loose.

Buck Sexton (39:25)

Yeah. It's like presidents and for. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice (39:29)

The attacks you're going to get on you and your family, even if you're an angel, are going to be horrific. So if you come in normal, you're not going to leave normal.

Buck Sexton (39:38)

And also the, the victim bully paradigm I think is really interesting. Some of these people too. And I even see this, you can even sort of see this in the context of the way the state, if it, you know, government is trying to brainwash, indoctrinate people, thought, reform them, whatever, whatever you want to say, which is, you know, one moment it's like, why have you done this bad thing to me? Why. Why have you victimized me or, you know, betrayed. Why have you betrayed me? Then a moment later it's like, I will crush you and I will destroy you. And it kind of goes back and forth all the time. You know, why don't you love me? I'm going to destroy you. And it really keeps people confused and degraded. I mean, you go through these processes and really, you know, mass hysteria is just mind. It's just mind control of the individual at scale. Right. It's, it's when they are able to, to do these things in a way that is broad enough that you just have the numbers. I also thought it was really interesting. There was a whole book. You would really like it. I have it over here, Iconography of Power. And this also got cut from the, oh, from the, from the final manuscript. There's all this stuff that got cut that I'm like, I kind of wish it had still been in there. But it's really just about the, the cult of personality that was built around Stalin and how, and people. You know, I know you, you wrote a book on North Korea and you're, you're expert in, in the way that they do. It's all. Stalin was kind of the, the OG of this even before Mao, obviously. And there was a lot that was borrowed from, from Stalin for this. But just the usage of the posters everywhere, like, you just, you have this constant visual remind, reminder and representation of the all powerful that is around you. And even, even smaller things too, like how they went from the initial. You have these intellectuals, intellectuals, whatever. You have like Lenin and these people who. Their, their symbol is like the peasant. And I'm talking about their symbol on the posters, right?

Michael Malice (41:35)

Yeah.

Buck Sexton (41:36)

Is the peasant with the scythe or whatever. Sickle. Thank you. Getting the wheat. And, and then they transform this when they're like, well, we kind of want everyone to be in the cities and then it's like the guy rolling up his sleeve at the factory and everything else. It's all just visualizations of this, of this kind of unreality. And first of all, they starved millions of the peasants and they weren't particularly good at doing much of the factory stuff that they tried to do. So anyway, I just think that. But the usage of posters just everywhere, millions and millions of these posters printed, that was sort of a new mass media capable phenomenon where you could actually do this. It wasn't really possible before and put them in as many places before. So I just, I thought that was really, you know, I want to like, I want to like grab it for you. I thought that was really cool. I, I got through all these like, you know, very interesting sort of backstories and themes about all this because I think that the ways that people are, you know, psychologically influenced, I mean, it's obviously the basis of politics in so many ways, but it's also the worst stuff that happens. And this is why I think it's so important. The worst stuff that happens is when large groups of people start believing stuff that is untrue.

Michael Malice (42:55)

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Michael Malice (44:54)

Let's get back to the show. I'm really glad to hear you say this again because I think a lot of times conservatives just think these things happen spontaneously or, you know, if there's some kind of new slang, it just, just develops and it's like conservatism. The best argument for it is it looks at the lessons of history to plasma today that when human beings are really not that different from 5,000 years ago in many senses. And to hear you actually trace these things like is I think, very healthy and smart to kind of reverse engineer. How do we get here? I want to talk to you a little about global warming because Scott Adams had this great book called Reframe youe Brain. There's a regular framework. Here's an example is I should do the best job I can. The reframe is my job is to train myself to get a better job. And right away when you think in those different terms, you're like, oh, crap. Okay. It's a very different approach. So David Friedman, who has a chapter in the Anarchist Handbook, who's I think, an amazing thinker, he gave a talk on global warming and within the first 30 seconds just blew my mind. And it goes, there's two things about global warming he says that I think are smuggled in that make no sense. One is that if it's man made, therefore that matters. And he's like, if a comet's coming to the Earth to kill everybody, we're not going to be like, well, it's natural. So it's, I'm fine with it. Like, who cares? Like, what the. If it's man made or not. But as I'm sure you understand, because it's man made, therefore it's, it smuggles in this idea that it's sinful and Bad.

Buck Sexton (46:25)

Yes, right, it is. That's where it gets into the religious aspect. Yeah.

Michael Malice (46:28)

And his other point is, David said this. I'm not at all. Why is it a given that warming is bad? Because there's far more life at the equators at the equator than there is at the poles. He's like, he ran, it's easier for life to live when it's warmer than when it's colder, so on and so forth. And the third point was it's also presented as given that if there is a change, that change is catastrophic. And it's like, you know what, not every bone you break is your skull. If I break my pinky toe, it's going to suck. It's not catastrophic if I there's ever seen a cold and lung cancer. But no, if there's a problem, it has to be not just an emergency, but an emergency that's on the verge of ending all civilization and life as we know it. And people just take all these things as a given within this issue.

Buck Sexton (47:18)

Well, this gets into. I talk about forced phobia. You know, phobia obviously exists in the psychological context as an irrational fear of something. Which is why I've always, for example, disliked and rejected the term Islamophobia. Because I'm not phobic of it. There are just things about it that I am very critical of. I don't have a, I don't have an irrational fear of it. I wouldn't even say I have a fear of it. I have criticisms and concerns. It's not the same thing. Right, but they say phobia and the same, by the way, transphobia, same thing. If you want to talk about, does a 200 pound guy who's built like Macho man Randy Savage have a physical advantage over like 18 year old girls in a lacrosse field? You're not transphobic, okay? You don't have an irrational fear of him. You're just a person that recognizes reality. But force phobia in the psychiatric or psychological context is when you're just intentionally trying to create irrational fear for the purpose of control. And this is another very important part of the playbook, if you will, for manufacturing delusion. And the climate change aspect of this is fascinating because it's so successful to some people that, I mean, it's hard to even imagine how this happens, but it does. There are people who have made the decision and I don't think it's. I'm not saying it's a huge number, but it's not an insignificant number. It's Enough that there's real data set of it.

Michael Malice (48:48)

Sure.

Buck Sexton (48:48)

Who will not have children.

Michael Malice (48:50)

Right.

Buck Sexton (48:50)

Who are foregoing having children because of the impact on.

Michael Malice (48:56)

Hold on, hold on, hold on a second, though. The thing is, a lot of times these things are just an excuse to get the person what they wanted anyway.

Buck Sexton (49:05)

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

Michael Malice (49:07)

Meaning like, I don't want to have kids. This gives me a moral justification to avoid doing it.

Buck Sexton (49:14)

I mean, that may be true, but I think the. I don't think you have to search for a moral justification if you don't have kids. Just don't have kids.

Michael Malice (49:21)

No, I think people like the New

Buck Sexton (49:23)

York Times, you think they want to just like, get a pat on the back on top of not having kids kind of a thing.

Michael Malice (49:28)

You don't think people look for those pats on the back, especially leftists in, in urban centers?

Buck Sexton (49:34)

Yeah, I mean, sure, in general. But I mean, let's just be real here for a second. The decision to not have children and to ascribe it to climate fear. Even if you're right, and I'm not saying you're not right, that the motivation is really to tie I'm not having kids to the Earth is warming or climate change, which is even funnier. Think about this the vaguest. I love all this talk, too, because the guy you mentioned, I agree with everything that he said. It's all obviously true.

Michael Malice (50:05)

They.

Buck Sexton (50:06)

What does climate change even mean? It has no meaning. This is, this is a. Of course the climate's always changing. And so then there was this thing for a while of. Do you not believe in climate change? What does that mean?

Michael Malice (50:18)

Right.

Buck Sexton (50:18)

Does it mean that. Do I think the word the world is probably getting a little warmer or maybe getting a little cooler over the next 50 years? Sure. Do I think it matters in any meaningful way to any of us? Absolutely not. And I've always thought that. And I'm also. You can tell because the people when, when push comes to shove, people don't live their lives like they really believe that either, which I think is also. Really.

Michael Malice (50:37)

But can I, can you bring, can I bring this up? Because I got heat, I got heat on this, on Rogan, because my point was I'm not a scientist. You aren't a scientist, Joe. When I look at what someone believes, I look at their revealed preferences, Right. Someone can tell me all the time, I love my wife. I'd never cheat on her. Never cheated on her. Yet. Is he getting his, you know what, wet with another woman or is he staying faithful to her, that's what matters, not what you're flapping your gums about. So the question is, all these people who think, okay, New York City is going to be underwater in 10 years, are they buying that shortfront real estate or are they selling it because it's going to be worthless in 10 years? And if you look at those real estate prices, they go up. So people who flip flap their gums about this are putting their money in the, in the opposite of what they're saying. And that is a much more reliable indicator of their views than whatever they happen to say for political or posturing purposes.

Buck Sexton (51:28)

I, I, I agree with that. I would say on your point about people say that they don't want to have kids because of the impact on climate. One, there are a lot of policies that we all have to live with because of climate impact that are insane. And so people at some level clearly do believe this stuff, right? I mean, there's, this isn't a totally, it's, it's not entirely cynical for those who are taking these actions, right. They actually think this even something as stupid as, I mean, I'm here in Florida, which is amazing. Me, you. Oh, you're in Texas. So I guess that's good enough. I always thought, I thought after New York you'd move to Florida, but Texas is good enough. You know, here we have plastic bags and when you go to the grocery store, which I grew up with in New York, you know, this is just like normal, you, plastic bags. Paper or plastic. But you know, if you want a plastic, they don't have in New York now, you know this, right? Like you, you have like all these plastic bag restrictions, you know, now they found out that paper bags are actually more problematic in some ways if you do the full analysis of this than plastic bags. Because plastic bags are much lighter, therefore they require far less to transport. They don't require, you know, you're not chopping down trees for them. But also, most importantly, they're highly reusable and people will use a plastic bag. Like, I actually have like a little plastic, you know, how you feel like the package drawer for your Chinese sauce and stuff. I have like a plastic bag drawer in my kitchen, but I just keep plastic bags because I use them. What?

Michael Malice (52:55)

Buck, you're talking to an immigrant. Every Russian person watching this right now under their sink has a plastic bag section and has had it in perpetuity. So you're, I like how it's reached the Americans, but you never know when we, I have it right now there's probably 50 of them there under my sink. You open the door and go to any Russian household, go right to the sink, hook it up, it's going to be there. And also that butter cookies tin with the. From Scandinavia that's used for sewing supplies. Every single Russian immigrant ever.

Buck Sexton (53:29)

So there you go. So you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Michael Malice (53:31)

Yes.

Buck Sexton (53:32)

And yet. So they did something that was going to be so minor anyway, and now they find that it's actually bad and they won't change it because the point wasn't whether it was good or bad. The point is it made them feel good when they did it. So I agree with the. It made them feel good about themselves, I should say, when they did it. On the climate extinction thing, though, with, with having kids, I, I feel like, especially for example, for women saying, I don't want to have kids, I want to pursue a career, you know, people will pat you on the back for that. There's a lot of ways to get a pat on the back for not having kids. Which is, which is, I think probably. By the way, I agree with Elon's take on we need more people. I actually think that's very true. Certainly in like, developed countries, right?

Michael Malice (54:15)

We need a certain kind of people. Right?

Buck Sexton (54:16)

Yeah, we need more. We need more productive, civilization upholding kind of people. And yeah, that's very important. But in the climate, climate extinction thing, I mean, just the fact that it's even taught, I mean, it's so stupid and so absurd that anybody would even get credit for saying it. Like, even if your premise is totally true, which I think is probably true some of the times, I think sometimes people honestly believe this stuff enough. Like, because I could read. I mean, again, I want to pull out the book right now. There's like New York Times articles of people, Michael, who say they can't sleep at night, they have anxiety because of climate change.

Michael Malice (54:54)

But buck me saying that to. Look, I'm in the New York Times saying this now. Do you see how high status that makes me?

Buck Sexton (55:02)

Maybe this is where it starts to separate, where it's like I'm. I can't think of what it's like to be so. To be such a.

Michael Malice (55:08)

Look, if I'm in a constant state of neurosis, everyone else has to give me attention and I'm the victim. That's another high status marker.

Buck Sexton (55:16)

But I mean, the people. There are people who like went and firebombed Teslas because they like, are angry about. Well, I guess that's because they're angry about Elon. That's not really trying to think of environmentalist. Okay.

Michael Malice (55:26)

The. The.

Buck Sexton (55:27)

The climate extinction people who, who do the. The hands on the. On the paintings or whatever, which, by the way, there is something so debasing and grotesque about what they do. And I. I mean, maybe at some level, I recognize that this is like there's an iconography here as well, and

Michael Malice (55:47)

that it's defiling a temple.

Buck Sexton (55:50)

Yeah, but that they would do that.

Michael Malice (55:54)

I'm going to make one more point, though. This is important. The plastic bags, they're not entirely wrong about the plastic bags, because the plastic bags go in the ocean and sea turtles, they look like jellyfish, and sea turtles eat jellyfish, and then their digestive system gets blocked because the plastic can't be digested and they die. So that, I think, was the reason for the plastic bag stuff. So it's not entirely nonsense.

Buck Sexton (56:17)

The problem with the plastic recycling programs that we have, for example, is, as I'm sure you know, it overwhelmingly, because it's cheaper for the companies that collect it.

Michael Malice (56:27)

Right.

Buck Sexton (56:27)

Just gets resold to Asia, and then it goes right into the rivers and the oceans, and nobody gives a. You know what. And that. So, again, there's. There's the intent of the program, and then there's the effect of it, which is kind of, unfortunately, the.

Michael Malice (56:39)

Well, I think the intent is to have everyone be obedient. That's the intent.

Buck Sexton (56:44)

Well, yeah, well, that was what you. That was, again, bringing me back to the COVID thing, which I still feel like now. Talking about COVID you're almost like the annoying person talking about the national debt is too high. It's like, you're right, and everyone knows you're right, but everyone's like, shut up. Nobody wants to hear it anymore. And I sit here, I'm like, this is.

Michael Malice (57:03)

This is.

Buck Sexton (57:04)

The entire world went completely insane for a solid two, two and a half years. And we've never really come to grips with how this happened or why this happened, and we just decide to move on. If that can happen with something like that. I mean, I've said this to people before. Imagine if we had the fatality. If we had a fatality rate. The real fatality rate of COVID was probably like, I don't know, 0.01 or something.001. It was, you know, it was similar to a bad flu season. And if we had something that was like a 5 or a 10 fatality, people who got. I mean, the civilization would crumble and people would completely freak out. So.

Michael Malice (57:44)

And I would blame them. If 1 out of 10 people I knew died. I. That would be a dramatic impact on my life for sure.

Buck Sexton (57:52)

But we're not prepared at all for. For the reality of what a real pandemic in the sense of something that everybody really needs to be deeply worried about. And it's because we haven't, you know, what did Hitchens say? It's because our prefrontal lobes are too small and our adrenal glands are too big, and we're afraid of dying. We're afraid of the dark. I'm just quoting Hitchens. You can argue with him if you want, but, you know, this is what it comes down to.

Michael Malice (58:15)

And here's something else. All the techniques. I've just said this on Rogan, all the techniques those social media and media companies learned during COVID on how to keep you in a state of constant agitation and always on your screen looking for the news. Just because Covid's gone doesn't mean those techniques haven't vanished. And I think they're weaponizing them very effectively to keep people in a state of COVID like agitation 24 7. You step away from social media, you see real life. You're like, I am putting myself in a Plato's cave of my own design. And here's something else that was kind of scary in terms of reality. My. I have no way of knowing what normal people think because my algorithm reflects my views. And then polling is not reliable. So literally how popular deportations are. I. I can only kind of use common sense, which is a very poor indicator of how 350 million people are thinking.

Buck Sexton (59:07)

Yeah, I. I think that the. I mean, you unpacked a few things there. One is the social media apparatus of either completely inane, worthless stuff and. Or stuff that is rage. Clickbait is. I mean, look at. Drive so much. It drives so much of the news cycle right now. I mean, I. I've had to point this out to people, and I feel like Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping is not a national news story, or rather, it shouldn't be. It's a story. It's sad. Someone's, you know, mom, I get all that, but people get shot, killed. I mean, bad things happen in this country every day. But there are certain things that. Because in this case, because of a. A media star involved in, it becomes. It quickly becomes very personalized for people when they actually have no connection to it whatsoever. I think there are a lot of things that the news cycle is dominated by now that if people sat back and they thought about it for a second, they'd be like, not only is there too much emphasis on this, it's actually not important.

Michael Malice (60:15)

And you know what else? If you're downplaying a buck, that means you're complicit.

Buck Sexton (60:19)

Yeah, of course.

Michael Malice (60:20)

So you're in on it or you don't care and you. You're glad she got kidnapped. Like this is. It's running this us them filter. Unless you care about this. We saw this with racism. Unless you care about this problem to the same extent that someone on 10 does. You are complicit and you are a white nationalist and a racist. It's. It's completely coherent, but also completely insane.

Buck Sexton (60:41)

You know, one of the tactics of the person with narcissistic personality disorder is the totally good versus totally bad. You're either 100% with me and everything I do with love, or else, screw you. I hate you. You're terrible. And putting people into that box all the time because that way you avoid having any actual exchange of ideas, conversation, or having to have any empathy for what they need or what they want.

Michael Malice (61:05)

Do you know by definition how you know if someone is a narcissist on site?

Buck Sexton (61:13)

What do you mean?

Michael Malice (61:15)

They have a really big head. The new book is called Manufacturing Delusion by Buck Sexton. I'm actually really excited to read it.

Buck Sexton (61:27)

So please, I'm gonna. As soon as we're done here, I'm gonna have you give me your home address. I'm gonna send you a signed copy with some, some pithy commentary.

Michael Malice (61:34)

I'll give you my P.O. box because you were a spook. Buck, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

Buck Sexton (61:43)

The part where you admitted that my book was better than you probably thought it was going to be. So there you go. Freely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's real. There's like real research, real thought, real stuff in there. It's not just like blah, blah, blah, like right wing, like America. So yeah, no, it's a real book.

Michael Malice (62:01)

Are welcome.

James Altucher (62:14)

Hey, it's James Alucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, standup comic. And whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altruist show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov, and I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the high highs, the lows, and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet, so if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking, and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Altucher show

Pluto TV Announcer (63:15)

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Buck Sexton (63:26)

We must make a massive demonstration iconic

Pluto TV Announcer (63:29)

hits like School Days and Set it off. Plus full seasons of shows like Tyler Perry's Sisters and Power.

Michael Malice (63:36)

I got you.

Pluto TV Announcer (63:37)

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Progressive Insurance Announcer (63:46)

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