Dr. Drew Gets Tortured by Michael Malice | “YOUR WELCOME” #414

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice

Episode: #414 – Dr. Drew Gets Tortured by Michael Malice
Date: May 6, 2026
Host: Michael Malice
Guest: Dr. Drew Pinsky

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Episode Overview

In this characteristically mischievous and probing episode, Michael Malice hosts Dr. Drew Pinsky for a long-form conversation that careens from personal psychology and childhood trauma to political philosophy, the COVID era, and the perils and paradoxes of self-esteem. Malice attempts to "torture" Dr. Drew not with physical discomfort but with relentless questioning, especially about mental health, cultural neuroses, and Drew's own perspectives and history.

The discussion is raw, candid, and often humorous, blending bleak personal anecdotes with sharp social commentary and moments of surprising depth on trauma, parenting, and the human condition.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The Nature of Torture & The Unknown

(Starts ~02:17)

• Malice teases Dr. Drew about impending "torture" during the episode—a psychological game meant to keep Drew on edge.
• Uncertainty as psychological torture: Human beings tolerate known suffering more easily than unpredictable pain.
  • Dr. Drew: “Humans do not like the unknown. And if they know what's coming, they tolerate it better... The unknown is the scariest of all, one of the scariest of all things for us.” (03:09)

2. Coping Mechanisms & Cultural Catastrophizing

(03:43–08:43)

• Malice discusses his Russian/Jewish upbringing, which prepared him for disappointment: always have a contingency plan due to unreliable people and uncertain systems.
• Drew describes "catastrophizing" as a Jewish and particularly Ashkenazi trait, shaped by centuries of social disasters.
• Anecdote: Malice recalls his father's instantly negative response to good news, highlighting the cultural tendency to "pull the rug out" and not allow hope.

3. The Self-Esteem Debate: Asset or Liability?

(10:21–17:32)

• Drew argues: Low self-esteem can be motivating—people with fragile esteem prepare for trouble and take responsibility, while the self-esteem movement (excessively high self-esteem) has led to a lack of resilience.
  • Dr. Drew: “When you have a low self esteem, you prepare for trouble... The downside is it's hard to feel like you've ever accomplished anything.” (10:21)
• Malice pushes back: If self-esteem is reality-based, it’s healthy to feel proud of your accomplishments.
• Drew distinguishes between “reality testing” (knowing what is true about oneself and one’s abilities) and “self-esteem” as a feeling.
• Discussion of internal vs. external locus of control:
  • High self-esteem does not necessarily correlate with an internal locus of control; in some cases, people with excessive self-esteem blame external factors.
  • Notable Quote: “High self-esteem people... When things go wrong, it must be out there because I'm great. It's you. It's something out here that's making... It's a fundamental attribution error that high self-esteem people have.” – Dr. Drew (14:49)

4. Civilization, Human Nature & Parenting

(24:04–29:59)

• Malice posits that humans are neither basically good nor corrupt, but rather "basically animals"—prone to deranged behavior unless checked by strong civilization.
  • Michael Malice: “We are basically, I would say, fundamentally deranged. And without this kind of strong civilization... you have very quickly just complete, you know, baffling behavior...” (24:33)
• Drew traces our violent, primate inheritance, emphasizing that nurturing family units (and broader civilizing forces) are essential for raising "good" humans.

5. COVID Reflections & The Age of Loneliness

(31:03–37:00)

• Both reflect on the psychological and social costs of pandemic lockdowns, especially on young people.
  • Drew hopes the generation affected will distrust government as a result: “They should never trust government again. That'd be a great outcome.” (31:23)
• Malice notes the class divide highlighted during COVID—elites enjoying themselves while ordinary people suffered.
• Mass formation & loneliness: Drew argues loneliness and lack of meaning (as per Hannah Arendt’s theory regarding Nazi Germany) contribute to the collective behavior seen during crises.

6. Childhood Trauma, Addiction & Therapy

(40:19–54:12)

• Malice brings up an infamous "Loveline" practice: Drew and Adam Carolla would guess callers' abuse histories, breaking through denial to help them get real about trauma.
  • Dr. Drew: “If you have bad enough addiction that you need to see me. 100% probability of childhood trauma.” (43:24)
• Discussion on the pervasiveness and psychological effects of childhood sexual abuse, and why shame, denial, and fear keep many from seeking help.
• Drew makes a case for modern trauma therapies (like EMDR) and underscores that “childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction.”
• The misconception that healing means reliving the trauma is addressed; therapy is about tolerable reintegration, not re-traumatization.
• Malice notes the importance of breaking secrecy and shame, advocating for open conversations and supportive environments.

7. Philosophy, Meaning & Camus

(55:04–58:11)

• The conversation turns to philosophy; Malice describes Camus’ “myth of Sisyphus” as profoundly hopeful—the opportunity to create meaning from struggle.
  • Michael Malice: “The inherent meaninglessness of life is an enormous opportunity for each of us to kind of imbue meaning to it...” (55:47)
• Dr. Drew—though not a fan of Camus’ style—agrees with the idea of finding purpose in suffering, relating it to Buddhist principles.

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Memorable Quotes

• “Humans do not like the unknown. And if they know what's coming, they tolerate it better. That's just a feature of the human being.” – Dr. Drew (03:09)
• “‘Catastrophizing’– that's a Jewish thing. From the heritage, you know? Things are going great, but watch out, tomorrow the world comes to an end.” – Dr. Drew (05:45)
• “When you have a low self esteem, you prepare for trouble... The downside is it's hard to feel like you've ever accomplished anything” – Dr. Drew (10:21)
• “High self-esteem people... When things go wrong, it must be out there because I'm great. It's you. It's something out here that's making... It's a fundamental attribution error that high self-esteem people have.” – Dr. Drew (14:49)
• “We are basically, I would say, fundamentally deranged. And without this kind of strong civilization governing how people make their choices... you have very quickly just complete, you know, baffling behavior to other people.” – Michael Malice (24:33)
• “Childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction.” – Dr. Drew (43:24)
• “Ordinary misery is a good thing. Too much in Soviet Russia, but ordinary misery is a good thing. It creates resiliency and change...” – Dr. Drew (53:11)
• “One must imagine Sisyphus happy.” – Michael Malice (paraphrasing Camus) (57:35)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:11 — Dr. Drew jokes about “torture;” discussion on the fear of the unknown begins
• 05:24 — Malice details Russian/Jewish pessimism; Drew ties it to catastrophizing
• 10:21 — Debating the value of low versus high self-esteem
• 14:49 — Drew on how high self-esteem often leads to externalizing blame
• 24:33 — Malice on humans as animals, not inherently good or bad
• 29:56 — Drew on how historical context shapes child-rearing and outcomes
• 31:23 — COVID’s impact on youth and trust in government
• 43:24 — "Childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction”—portrait of trauma/addiction link
• 51:42 — Barriers to seeking therapy for childhood trauma
• 55:47 — Camus, Sisyphus, and the opportunity to imbue life with meaning

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is direct, philosophical, and darkly humorous, with Malice’s sarcasm and penchant for uncomfortable truths balanced by Dr. Drew’s clinical candor and self-deprecating warmth.
• Both men blend sharp cultural critique with vulnerable personal disclosure, making for a rare combination of intellectual rigor and accessibility.

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Closing

Malice and Dr. Drew trade farewells, reflecting on finding meaning in hardship and the wisdom that comes from experience. Malice apologizes for not getting to all his planned “torture” segments, promising more next time. The episode closes with the sense that, despite darkness, meaning and connection are possible—and that rigorous, even uncomfortable conversations are worth having.

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Transcript

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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[Michael Malice]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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[Michael Malice]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

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[Michael Malice]

summer with VRBO's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only folks. My new graphic novel, Unwanted A Tall Tale of the Old Westland New Wave is out for pre order now. I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it [e-mail]. Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. Guys, we're in for a treat. For some unfathomable reason, Dr. Drew has agreed to do the show again. He needs no introduction, except I do want to remind people that he is a real doctor and not a Jill Biden doctor. So Dr. Drew, thank you for coming back to the show.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I guess I'm a fan of abuse, that's why. Or the special kind of abuse that you've met out.

[Michael Malice]

Well, that's funny you say that, because later in this episode I figured out a good way to torture you. And a useful way to maximize the effectiveness of torture is to warn the person that they're going to be tortured, but not tell them the nature of said torture. So it'll be hanging over their head like the sword of Damocles as they're wondering when is it going to start and what is it going to look like?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And the way humans are, the opposite is also true. If you tell them what it's going to be, how long it's going to be, how bad it's going to be, we can endure it better. But the unknown. Thank you for that, Michael. Thank you.

[Michael Malice]

I want to hear you expound on that, because I had a friend and she had a shrink, and he had pointed out to her that people who have a diagnosis that's even terminal, it's a lot easier for them to wrap their heads around it than, I don't know what's wrong with me. Which is counterintuitive.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's counterintuitive. But humans do not like the unknown. And if they know what's coming, they tolerate it better. That's the basic. It's just a feature of the human being.

[Michael Malice]

Can you explain how that works?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, it's just. It's like explaining why we walk on two legs. It's just one of our features. How would that evolve would be the question. You know, I guess it would motivate us to seek meaning and, you know, sort of understanding and everything. It's just a sign that the unknown is the scariest of all, one of the scariest of all things for us.

[Michael Malice]

You know, it's funny. I did this in my own life because I'd never been in a fight, and I had my friend who's a lot bigger than me, we did a little fight club, just so I know what it's like getting hit in the face, and it sucks, and I don't ever want to have it happen again. But point being, if I'm ever in that situation, I know I can get through it. And it's not now going to cause me to modify my behavior out of fear. It'll be like, all right, I really want to go through this. But I also.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It goes down under, face your fears. Right. It's sort of in the same category. And, yeah, every time I have, like, been anxious about something that came to light, it turned out that wasn't so bad after all.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Isn't the most common thing elderly people say when asked about what they would have done differently? They say, I wouldn't have worried so much.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes, that's right. That's right. And although I don't know what. I don't know how you are, but I know how I am. I'd worry anyway.

[Michael Malice]

Something that's. Well, I. I'm a little different. And this could be my Russian upbringing. So with the Russian upbringing, and this has never made explicit to me, but it's something I'd gleaned, I guess. I always. When I'm dealing with someone, I always assume, not assume, prepare. What if this person falls through or betrays you and then you have a contingency plan. So when it happens, you're not having that panic of, oh, crap, it's really kind of laid out or. And especially when dealing with something like publishing, when the stories are horrific, it's just like, oh, okay, I knew this person was unreliable, and now I don't have to skip a beat.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Are you Jewish?

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah. So the catastrophizing is a uniquely Ashkenazi Jew thing, but you put a special Russian flavor on it, which other people will let you down. Not just life and everything in it, but specifically people will let you down, which I think is fantastic.

[Michael Malice]

I don't think life lets me down at all. I think life can come through for me phenomenally.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, no, no, no, no. The, the catastrophizing, that's, that's, that is a Jewish thing. That's from the heritage, you know, you know, it's. You know, things are going great, but watch out tomorrow, you know, the world comes to an end.

[Michael Malice]

You know, it's interesting you say that. Let's talk. So now I'm on the couch because this is one of the big reasons I don't have a positive relationship with my family. So there was this show called Russian Dolls, not the month on Tasha Leone. It was a rip off of Jersey Shore about Brighton beach, which was a Russian Jewish. It is a Russian Jewish community. And it's a bunch of young Russian kids, right? And one girl, I remember, she was in college and she was. Kept switching majors. She didn't know what she wanted to do, so she took an aptitude course. And it told her what her proclivities are and she'd be good as an attorney. So she's with her mom in the beauty salon. I think they're getting their nails done or the hair, whatever it was. And this is her big announcement. She goes, mom, I've been struggling for a long time, as you know, with my major. I figured out what it is. I'm going to go to law school. And the first thing out of her mom's mouth is, how are you going to pay for it? And the girl loses her mind. Now, if you're watching it at home, the girl looks like a crazy person because it's like your mom asked a very germane question. And it's something everyone. Law school's exorbitant, so on and so forth. But I knew it, really. This was years of. Whenever you had anything slightly positive or hopeful, the immediate reaction is, pull the rug out every single time. And after a while, it's like, can't we worry about paying the law school, you know, and she's, she's like, people pay for law school all the time. We'll figure it. But it's, it's like, why is that your go to instead of, oh, that's so great. You must feel so relieved.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Do you think that's unique to your family and this Jersey Shore family?

[Michael Malice]

No, no, that's what I'm saying.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Ubiquitous phenomenon. This is what I'm talking about.

[Michael Malice]

I'm agreeing with what you're saying. And it's, it's, I don't, and I very much fight against that mindset and I don't have that mindset.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You just said you have it. You just said that's how I prepare for a guest to cancel on every time. Have I ever let you down?

[Michael Malice]

There's a difference between preparing and expecting. And there's a difference, when that's your first go to reaction is worried about

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

where do you think that comes from? Where does that come from? Why would it be like that?

[Michael Malice]

Well, obviously she's from the Soviet Union where you can't rely on anything.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, not just Soviet Union, but Jewish history is one catastrophe after another. So much so I worry that all the catastrophizing brings it on because it's just one catastrophe. It's just constant. And so, you know, the, the world's going to come to an end tomorrow is a constant refrain back to the Bible. Right?

[Michael Malice]

But I, I, but the, my point is, is something I have, I'll give you an example of, of how it affected me personally. I did not. This is not the torturing. Now I'm the one getting tortured. I Remember this is 25 years ago, I met with some big shot agent, right? And I was shopping around a novel and the guy was receptive. We had a good meeting and he says, send me, I'll take a look at it. I was cautiously optimistic, right? And I said to myself, this is the one time I'm going to call my dad first. I'm going to give him a chance to kind of be the go to let me give him the opportunity. And the first thing out of his mouth is, well, of course he's going to blow smoke up your ass and, and tell you he's going to get it published. And I'm like, he didn't even say that. He just said he's going to read it, which other people haven't done. Look, you have to understand, people will tell you what you want to hear. I'm like, that's not how Agents. And he has this, he had this script and that's. And Drew, you know this. And people watch this, probably know this. When literary agents are the opposite. They're very quick to tell you, no, I'm not interested. I mean they're very gatekeeper and they're not at all unless you're like someone at a high level blowing smoke up your ass. And he just, his immediate reaction is, don't hope, don't hope, don't hope. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, there's no cost. I'm sending him the manuscript. There's no cost in me hoping other than okay, maybe I'll be disappointed. But he didn't promise me anything. So it was such a, like a light bulb memory for me.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right. So it's all very familiar to me. And it ends up eroding your self esteem and your confidence. And I would argue that's a blessing. That one of the self esteem movement was a catastrophe. And when you have a low self esteem, you prepare for trouble like you do, you take responsibility for everything. And the only downside is it's hard to fill. It's hard to feel like you've ever accomplished anything because if you live in that kind of an environment, nothing was ever good enough. Right. Everything was right, good for now. But you know, right, don't, don't, don't imagine you're somebody that kind of right. Which I would argue is a good thing. So I, you can, you can spin it however you want. There's liabilities with it. So I have fragile esteem, but it's an asset that I lean on all the time. And I look at the disaster of the self esteem movement, I'm glad I don't have lofty self esteem that's not connected to reality.

[Michael Malice]

But telling you could have lofty self esteem that is connected reality. Because talking about eternal locus, locus of control, there are certain things that I know I am competent at. And to go into it assuming I can't handle it is untrue.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Do you need their, their approval and stuff?

[Michael Malice]

I don't mean their approval. You're talking about talking internally. If I internally don't have that self esteem, then I'm going to be. How am I going to accomplish anything I need to?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, because you're. Because there's a difference between self esteem and reality testing. You realistically know I have these abilities. I have this thing, you know, if I succeed, I shouldn't expect to succeed, but if I do, fantastic. And it's sort of, it's again, you know, I'm making a case, right? I'm saying I'm grateful for my low self esteem is what I'm saying. But yeah, I understand there's liability attached

[Michael Malice]

to it, but I, I, I, I think it's how I, maybe this is my Ayn Rand brain talking. I don't understand the utility of I'm of the mindset that if something is untrue, it's always bad or almost always bad. So if someone is accomplished a certain things and they know they can do those things and they take pride in those things, even if it's hey, I make great chocolate chip cookies, doesn't have to be a Nobel Prize, like how is it bad for that person to have high self esteem? That's reality based in that context.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That isn't how that's good reality testing and that is there's a little bit of a subtle difference because we're talking about parenting and stuff. You're really underlying all this. But what you're saying is the ability to accept right that, that you are accomplish and you do these things and to being sort of nourished by that. That's where the low self esteem thing becomes a liability. Right. The both of both cases are reality assessed accurately, which is really the important thing here. But on one case it's trouble to it's difficult to fill the low self esteem. On the other it's I feel good about it because I'm accomplished at it. Which is healthier. Grant you, I grant you.

[Michael Malice]

But the thing with low, there's a difference between being I want to split

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

these hairs because that's where the torture begins for me.

[Michael Malice]

What's that?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

This is the torture. This is my torture. We're going to go over and over my low self esteem.

[Michael Malice]

Although that is no, that is going to lead into the torture, to be honest. But I just think that you're shrink, right?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So you see, no, I'm an intern. People mistake what I am all the time.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I know about mental health because I worked in a psychiatric hospital for 30 years and I sat at the crossroads of medicines and psychiatry doing addiction medicine for over 25 years. And so I understand these things, but I am not a psychiatrist.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, but you have a high level of understanding of mental health and mental issues, is that fair to say?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I do. I do.

[Michael Malice]

So I have always been under the impression that having a lack of self esteem is crippling because it's much harder for that person to be self motivated and having an internal locus of control. Though a Positive though. Having costs is on net a strong benefit.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Have I make sure I heard what you said. Having an internal locus of control, which is I'm responsible for things is a net benefit. Right?

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And that comes from having a low self esteem, right?

[Michael Malice]

No, no. It comes from having a high. Having a low self esteem.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Oh, it doesn't. High self estrem. This is the. This is the misconception.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

High self esteem people. When things go wrong, it must be out there because I'm great. It's you. It's something out here that's making. It's. It's a fundamental attribution error that high self esteem people have. So they don't requ. Why do they. They're not motivated to correct course. Well, somebody with low self esteem is like, yeah, I got to really work at this. I'm not. I'm a piece of shit. I gotta. I gotta. I gotta go now. Again, there's liability to that. You could get depressed. You could really know fall apart too. But generally speaking, I would, I would say on. On average you want low self esteem more than a high self esteem.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, hold on. My understanding of locus of control. Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Is the person's perception of how much of their life or reality is under their control. Right?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Correct. Is due to them. I think is a better way to think about it is theirs. They own it. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

So I have almost. When I tested in college, who knows if it's still the same. I'm sure it's close the same. I had a totally internal locus of control.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Good.

[Michael Malice]

And that leads me to believe that I am responsible for what's in my life. And if something goes wrong, it's my responsibility to A, maybe I put too much trust in some other person, but B, having. Maybe I didn't make contingency plans, but it is all my.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And by the way, just. Just to put a little political spin on this, people have studied Trump derangement syndrome and almost exclusively external sense of control people with tds.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think why that is is we heard this in the first term. Not as much this term. I remember people saying with a straight face and I don't even know how to reply to them because they were being sincere. I think, how could I be happy if this guy's in the White House and it's like, what are you. What are you talking about? Like, how is your happiness based on who's farting behind the Resolute desk? It's crazy.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, we've stayed there for 10 years.

[Michael Malice]

Seems to me I Think. But anyway, let's go to the locus of control. If I have an internal one.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Good.

[Michael Malice]

That does correlate with my high self esteem because I feel I'm competent to make things happen that I want to have happen.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Good. I'm not saying you can't have both. I'm saying on some high self esteem usually is not associated with the internal sense of responsibility and control. Because I'm already. I suspect the kind of high self esteem I'm talking about is very high self esteem, which is what the self esteem movement brought us. People with unrealistically high sense of self esteem.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, you mean that kind of. I don't want. Not in a literal sense npd, but that kind of narcissism where things are doomy. I am. Whatever I do is going to be great. I don't have to put in the work. I'm just awesome. Like from the jump.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Think about all the children's programming. You're you because you're you and you're great because you're you. It's the worst messaging in the world. And we went, we went full hog that for 20 years. And it's been a. It's been a net bent negative.

[Michael Malice]

Can you talk a bit about what you see as the negative consequences of that kind of messaging?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Exactly what you described. You can't reality test. You feel victimized when the world doesn't cooperate with your greatness. You don't feel a need to improve and to participate because you're already you. You're great. I mean, if you're great, why? Why? It's all done. What do we have, what do we have to do here? The work. Work here is done. And obviously I'm being real facetious with these sort of extreme descriptions, but on NET has had that effect on people.

[Michael Malice]

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I'm a mess in other ways, but this I got. Unlock. Thank you. Just thrive. Let's get back to the show. I remember I was co authoring this book called Concierge Confidential. And he was a concierge at the Intercontinental Hotel. It was like this fancy hotel in New York. And there was this one incident which really stuck with me where he's on, there's a line, you know, behind the concierge desk. I think he's on the phone, you know, doing his job. And this wealthy woman, you know, he described as looking Diane Carroll from Dynasty comes over and she's trying to get his attention. He's like, I'll be with you in a minute. And she's strumming, you know, her fingers with a big ring on the desk, you know, exasperated. And he's, she sees he's helping other people. He's not just sitting in the corner, you know, peeing on himself. And at one point, she takes his name plate and throws it at him or throws it on the floor and it shatters. And he just says, like, look at you. Like, look. Like, look. Look what you've done. And. And his point, which was so profound to me, is this woman comes into every exchange with someone in a service position, assuming you could feel through her pores that they're going to be an idiot and incompetent. And then it becomes entirely self fulfilling because why would I in a service position want to validate this horrible. I just want to get her out of my hair. And I'm not going to get a thank you or a please, she's just obnoxious. But from her self validating perspective, it's always everybody else's fault.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Right. That's the victim mentality. But there's a lot of things that, that could have been, right. I mean, that woman could be narcissist, could be sociopath, could be alcoholic, could be on drugs that day. I mean, who knows? And the point being is that we are jam packed with people like that these days. And I guarantee you it is not just service personnel that she is horrible to. I promise.

[Michael Malice]

Of course. I mean that's, that's kind of a given. I'm. I have this hypothesis and I want to hear you riff on it, if I may, because there's this kind of vision that human beings are basically good, which I think roughly aligns with leftism. And there's this idea that human beings are basically corrupt, which aligns I think certainly with Christian views and with conservatism in many ways. And I think those are both kind of inaccurate. And my view is that human beings are basically animals.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

And that we are, we are basically, I would say, fundamentally deranged. And without this kind of strong civilization governing how people make their choices, you have very quickly just complete, you know, baffling behavior to other people. And it's, it's really not that far removed from the domesticated dog. Am I being too cynical, you think?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, it depends what you mean by deranged. What does that mean?

[Michael Malice]

Meaning, like acting in ways. I'll give you a very common example. Every episode of Hoarder. Hoarders has exactly the same plot point, which is facade of normalcy. Facade of normalcy, expression of concern, complete meltdown, mask off moment. Right. So I think Camus had this great quote of I don't have it on top of my head, but we don't realize how many people expend an enormous amount of energy simply trying to be normal.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And I think you see this a lot with like child abuse cases where the family on the outside just looks. Okay, maybe a little weird. But the thing that goes on in these households, I'm sure you've seen examples of this are just jaw dropping.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah. So never, never assume other people's minds and brains work like yours does. That's rule number one. Number two, even within a well functioning society where things are going well, there still are outlying people, both genetically experientially bad luck. They get a head injury or something. And those behaviors associated with those people can be reprehensible. Doesn't begin to describe what that can be. Right. And so those people for sure. Have to be sort of reined in by everyone else. So when in a psychiatric hospital when someone goes totally crazy, like they're really not connected to reality, they're violent, what you do is you bring a group in and you have a unified front of eight or 10 people that provide a show of force to that individual. You don't say anything, you don't do anything. And just that containment of other humans de escalates them. We need to do that in this society. We do not do it. We encourage the craziness. We go, oh, I'm going to get a bat. I'm going to get all those people. You know, it's, it's bad, it's bad. We need to de escalate. So that's what you do with the outlying people that, that are prone to horrific behavior. But you're, you're. You made a statement that we'd all be that way if it were not for the sort of mitigating effects of society. We are certainly not the way Rousseau paints us.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

History, History tells us that history is paint painted with blood and violence, top to bottom. You go all the way back to our primate heritage. And we are killing infants as a primate, as a chimpanzee, killing infants, warring with our. Everybody beating the crap out of people, raping women. This is what we come from. That's our heritage. And we have discovered a way to thrive together with this civilizing force we call it. And it's fundamentally brought into the human form through the family. Right. That's the fundamental unit that brings it in to begin with.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And in that system, if there really is nurturing and caretaking and attunement, all the things that children really need to thrive. Humans are good. Humans become. Because the self emerges then in a relationship with a caring, nurturing other. And that environment of holding that frame creates a lot of positive affects and a lot of regulation and a lot of ability to see good in other people and in ourselves. So I would argue that done properly, you know, given the circumstance of raising a child, not that you don't need a lot of firmness and, you know, structure and all the things we all know that you need to do to raise a child, fundamentally that part is easier to contain when you're in an environment of a frame of holding and safety. So, yeah, without that. Sure. I mean, what, what happens to a feral child that comes out of the woods, you know, goes in when they're two, they don't have a sense of self. They don't have language they don't, can't regulate. They're probably violent and fearful. They. Yeah, that's who we would be if it were not for the setting of bringing a human into a civilized form. But I don't know, you know, I struggle with this part a lot, which is because I didn't pay attention to it for a lot of years. Now I'm trying to pay more attention to it because it seems to be so relevant to our present moment. Every one of these circumstances of a child being raised in a family unit is in a socio. Historical context. Sure. And you can't ignore that.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And things come through because of that also. And that's where things get kind of infinitely complex to me. They get wildly complicated.

[Michael Malice]

Well, can you, can you expand on that? What do you mean?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I mean, you know, let's think of, you know, today or let's see, let's go back to French Revolution. Sure. You're, you're, you're, you know, you're trying to raise a child and you know that they're entering a violent world and the king is extracting things and your resentments are going to come through to this child. Their child's going to hear it. The child's going to be, you know, sort of aware of how much you're put upon by the aristocracy and you're going to, you might even have your family pulled away from you by this superior force that comes in and you have to go out into the world as an orphan or something and survive. And this, this creates, this creates a different kind of human being. Right. Than say somebody that was raised in 1950s America or the Great Depression especially. Well, that. I don't know if you, you probably had that stuff too. I had tons of that rain down on me as well. And it comes through. It's not like my dad was in the moment affected by the Depression, but man, he reminded me of it every second that he, he had to live through that.

[Michael Malice]

You know, it's, it's interesting that you say that because I, about the French Revolution, because I remember during, first of all, God help us, all those kids whose teenage years were spent during COVID Like, I, I don't know, I mean, talk about running a social kind of a mangle experiment.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I hope they're angry. They should be furious.

[Michael Malice]

Furious.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And they should never trust government again. That'd be a great outcome.

[Michael Malice]

But how are they not going to be warped is my point.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The, the, the, the question is how are they not going to be? But how are they going to be right.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And, and Mike, my hope is, I, My instinct is they're gonna look at that and go, hey, you guys, I. I've had it. I'm not gonna trust that nonsense again. You ruined my high school years. You locked us down for what? For oh my God. Take me, get and shake off government. That. That was the whole point of this American experiment. So let's see if they come through and feel that way.

[Michael Malice]

I remember soon after the gyms reopened, and I still am salty about it, because as they. First of all, the fact that gyms were closed, where that is the one area you know, people are health conscious, made no sense. But also, this is what really triggered me. De Blasio was mayor at the time, and they were having some inspectors kind of clear this different establishments for reopening. And like, the gyms were lower priority because there weren't enough inspectors. And I'm like, fine, then hire private inspectors. I mean, like the fact that you have to put this, any organization out of business temporarily because you can't have enough people to clear them. Let the people run the risk. But my point is, I remember I was on the treadmill and I was right during this period. And I. Sorry to give people ptsd, but I think a lot of us remember how dark those times were, how worried people were about their jobs, about their relationships. People lost friendships, you know, you couldn't see people. It was just. Tom woods has this superb book called Diary of a Psychosis where it's a diary, so it goes day by day and you forget the things that just contradict each other in the space of a month and they just pretend it never happened. Anyway, I'm on the treadmill. I'm watching ads for either today's show or Good Morning America, one of those. And it's like Al Roker and he's got big smiles and they're doing hula hoops, whatever it was, and high fiving, you know, kind of basically having this little party. And I stood there and I said, this is how the French Revolution happened. When you have this ruling class that's kind of having champagne and petit fours while everyone else is in pain for no reason. Honest people, hard working people who just want to know, okay, is it going to be okay? And like, oh, it's fine. I got a hula hoop. What's the problem? And I'm like, this is how it happens.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But to my amazement, there's still a gigantic contingent that co signed the behavior of the elites. Oh, yeah, that's. That to me is the opposite of the French Revolution. That's still mass formation. And I don't understand that at all. To me, I just. The whole time, listen, while you were on the treadmill, we were still locked down out here. And I just kept thinking, I just. Every day I'd wake up and go, oh my God, those businesses around Disneyland, there are 10, maybe hundreds of thousands of employees gone. The businesses are shattered and Disney World wide open, Florida's fine and we're shut down. All those businesses and they don't give a shit. They don't seem to care at all. And I'd wake up every day thinking about that.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Because I remember very vividly 2008 when the banks were failing and there was a bipartisan huge bank bailout. And then all those stores who went under there wasn't even like, hey, we saved Wall street, we gotta save Main Street. They didn't care, not even a little.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah, well, again, why, why would people. This is, this is back to where we started a conversation about, you know, mid, mid 20th century behavior. And maybe I wasn't talking to you about. I've been thinking about a lot lately. And you know, why? How did all those Germans behave like that? How did that happen? And this is the same phenomenon. They just. The bottom up behavior of maybe 20% of the population of true believers was reprehensible. And they still have such severe cognitive dissonance, they can't come to terms with it.

[Michael Malice]

You know, sometimes I'll say something and I feel it's innocuous and it gets heat. And sometimes I say something that I think is controversial and everyone agrees. And this is one of the latter points I had said expecting pushback and I got zero pushback. That if a return to a Covid style regime was put on the ballot today, a huge percentage of the population would vote for it. And no one's disagreed with my assessment of that.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, let's put a pin in that and say that's an interesting moment. Like there were moments during the pandemic. Right. You just remember these certain things that happened, these extraordinary moments. This is another extraordinary moment, I would say. Now the question is, is that people agreeing they would sign up or agreeing that there are crazy people out there that would sign up for it. Now I noticed that when the hantavirus outbreak on the cruise ship happened a couple of days ago.

[Michael Malice]

Yep.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Everyone went, oh, we're going to do this again. And nobody pushed back on that either. Right. Like, like we're not going to do this again. We're not, not going to. And everyone just yeah, we're not going to.

[Michael Malice]

But I feel like a lot of people, especially in blue states, wanted that kind of we're all in this together state of external panic.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes, they were gratified by it. It gave them purpose and meaning and connection and all the things we sort of don't have right now largely because of social media and that people aren't dating and they aren't having sex and they aren't having kids. And so we're just, poof, we're, we're separated. And that, that Hannah Arendt said that was the reason the Germans behaved the way they did. It was loneliness.

[Michael Malice]

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[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

This, this isn't the torture.

[Michael Malice]

This is not the torture.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

This is the beginning. This is the doorway to the torture. I'm at.

[Michael Malice]

No, it's nothing. This is has no rel Venn diagram. Two discrete circles of the torture. Okay? The person said, I couldn't believe this because I, I. The best part of Loveline was when they would put the caller on hold and place bets on how old they were when they were molested.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

While the celebrity guests sat there in complete shock.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Oh, we did that all the time. And the reason we started doing that is we would. We would go. I would. You'd hear these people. We got so good at tuning our ears to the person on the other end that both Adam and I, when a person would start talking, we'd go, oh. We'd literally look at each other, go, oh, this is an abuse survivor. Just the way they made us feel. And then I would close my eyes and go, I'm seeing a six year old. When she's talking, it sounds like a six year old.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And so I would then bring it up and go, hey, listen, I don't mean to, but I'm. We have this feeling and, you know, something probably happened to you. Well, I know what you're talking about. I'm talking about it. Look, no, no, no. Just when people have these events, these traumas, like, no one ever traumatized it. Well, did anybody you. Or try to with you when you're six years old? Yeah, but I mean, that was my granddad. But doesn't everybody go through that? You know, so we got tired of that. So we got tired of having to go through this thing. So what we would do is break through all that denial by going, hang on a sec, six year old, what do you say? He'd say, you know, seven and a half, we go, go, let's find out which. And. And that would. That would end the conversation. And they'd go, yeah, I was six, my dad, me. And so we can get on with the conversation as opposed to all the denial and defense and all this stuff. It would break right through it. We weren't being harsh, we weren't being mean. We were actually being quite compassionate when we would do it, like, hey, this is affecting you. We can hear it instantly as soon as we talk to you. You should do something about that. EMDR is a great thing. Trauma therapies work. Look into it. Because. Because the reason you're fucked up in your relationships right now, it's that it's a traumatic reenactment of what happened to you when you were six. And you're still there, you're still in it. And let's. Let's get you out of that. Otherwise, what are we doing? We're not. We're. Otherwise, we're just chatting about communicating with your partner, which is a nothing. Which is a.

[Michael Malice]

It's the elf in the room. It's the elephant in the room.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's, It's. People don't even know to go there. They're afraid to go there. And they're. And they're defended about it. And this is the point. And by the way, the celebrity guests were never aghast. They were always. They were always.

[Michael Malice]

They.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

We did it so much. They were always like, how do you know that? How do you know? And they'd be curious and appropriate, like, yeah, well, we can't. You hear that? You know, we talk about it. And that was. That.

[Michael Malice]

Is my impression accurate? That a huge let's. I'm pulling the summer completely out of my ass. 70% of people who are addicts and alcoholics, it's a reaction to unresolved childhood trauma.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The way I say it is. I have two ways of saying it. One is, if you have bad enough addiction that you need to see me. 100% probability of childhood trauma. 100%. I never treated an addict, but I only treated severe, severe, severe, severe illness. Right? So I was treating the worst of the addictions. And the other way to say it is childhood trauma is the rocket fuel for addiction. It's what leads them to be looking for solutions in adolescence because they're so miserable, they're in pain, they find their way to a drug, they feel better. Now a second problem kicks in, and that second problem is addiction. So you have unresolved childhood trauma. You're looking for a solution to that, and your solution creates a second problem we call. We call addiction.

[Michael Malice]

So I was on Rogan once, and my friend Matt, who asked me to use his name, had come out to me as being the victim of childhood sexual abuse. And the reason I discussed on Rogan, because my point was, and I talk about this as much as I can, it's not right that he felt embarrassed or reticent to tell me in any way, thinking I was going to look at him differently. Because completely. Back in the day, if someone's parents. Yeah, if someone's parents were divorced or mom likes pills, dad's a drunk, we get it. If someone told you that, you're like, oh, that sucks, but you're not gonna. But this. One, people are ashamed. And I'm like, first of all, this is how they get away with it, because they know you're gonna keep your mouth shut. Two, you're still allowing them to punish you even as an adult. And three, if it happened to you again today, it still wouldn't be the same because you're an adult. So when it happens to adult, it's not the Same as when it happens to a kid. So I said, it's important for all of us who have not been these victims to create the space that if someone feels had this happen them. You promise? Look, I'm going to. I still make jokes with Matt. He still laughs about them. After I talked about this on Rogan, so many people flooded my inbox, whatever, and several other friends of mine told me so I had come to the understanding that this is far more pervasive than people realize.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Pandemic.

[Michael Malice]

What's that?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That was the pandemic in the 90s, 80s and 90s. Listen, the 70s was. There's a couple things. A couple things. One is, you need to know, though, that eight and under children feel responsible for everything that happens to them. So there's deep shame associated with trauma because they feel like they deserved it or they created or something about them that they're flawed, therefore this happened to them.

[Michael Malice]

Them.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So that's where the defensiveness comes from. 70s and 60s and 70s were the worst decade of the human in maybe in human memory, but certainly the United states in the 70s. You got to look at the way people talked about sexuality. They literally would go, children are just little sexual beings, you know, they're whatever they're into, man. You're like, oh, kids are active. Oh, they'll be like that. Just kids are that way, you know, And. And then the way we treated women was horrific. It was, hey, man, women have the exact same sexual desire as you. You know how you want to have sex. They want it too, but they can't admit it. So you have to be aggressive to help them, help them come along with their sexual desire. It was so messed up. It was such a. I really think that we're going to look at Hugh Hefner the way we look at Epstein one day. I really believe that very strongly.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think in many ways I think I can steel man it, which is they're trying to react to this 1950s puritanicalism, and they just did a switch in the opposite direction.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Well, I think two things happened. Well, three things happen. Antibiotics. So pelvic inflammatory disease and urinary infections didn't kill you anymore. Contraceptive pills. You had control over your reproductive health. And this unleashed biology is the foundation of everything. This unleashed a new biological context. And the adults that perpetrated this never imagined that adolescents would get involved with this. I was an adolescent at the time when this was all going on. Trust me, adolescents were in immediately. And there was shock and amazement. Like when I started Talking to adolescents. I was 24 in 1983 when I started talking to adolescents on radio because I knew what they were doing. It was a scandal. Why would you talk to a 17 year old about sexuality? What's wrong with you? That's where we were. And a lot of these kids were acted out on and drug addiction was out of control and families were falling apart and it was on. It was just, I think we're better than we were then, but we're still trying to heal from all that. And probably a lot of the political is some sort of tail on all that. It's something to do with it. All that external locus of control stuff, that's, you know, when you're abusing your eight, you have an external locus of control stuff happens to you. Right, Right.

[Michael Malice]

So I think there's two things that feed into that. One is, in the late 60s you had a resurgence of Freudianism and Freud had the belief, which is factual but not truthful, that children are more sexually aware than we give them credit for. But to extrapolate from that to like, oh, kids are curious about body parts, therefore it's okay to touch them. That's.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Freud never made libido in a child. Adult sexuality. We made it adult sexuality. And that's insane. That is, they can't, they don't even have a frame. Listen, average child now is exposed to pornography by age 9. It's traumatic for them. It's one of the bigger problems we have right now.

[Michael Malice]

And I think the other thing people need to appreciate, these predators think, well, I'm not holding down this child. There's no knife to their throat. It's just pleasure.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

They wanted it. They would literally say they wanted it. They were, they were, you know, oh,

[Michael Malice]

so you and I are the ones who are, have a screw loose and are too uptight. So no one's getting. That's their logic. So people need to appreciate how these people think in order to realize how they operate. It's going to not be someone in an alley. It's going to be a trusted figure who's telling themselves, look, no one's getting hurt here. And everyone at some point has to go through this. So what's the big deal? That's their thinking.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Wow. Am I wrong though?

[Michael Malice]

Isn't that the logic, yo?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah. Oh, they have various versions of that, but yes, it's, it's

[Michael Malice]

okay. I was not expecting to. Well, so let me ask this. So there's going to be several people watching this. Just statistically where they've had this happen to them and they don't know what to do about it or they don't want to think about it, what advice would you have for them?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So the one thing, I mean, it can happen if you people and they can move on and be okay. That does happen. It's unusual. So do not assume that you're. Because you don't think about it anymore. It's okay. The way trauma works is a part of you that is overwhelmed when you're a child. It literally shatters the upper limit of your brain's regulatory capacity, gets walled off in the back and that's still there. It's a part of you that is disconnected, disintegrated from the rest of your regulatory system. And it communicates with the world. It needs things still. And it does that primarily through motivating traumatic reenactments. The way that works is it will make you attracted to people. Circumstances that are very similar to the abusers from way back when. Oh, wow. It's just in our nature. And if that is happening to you, you want to break that because it will destroy you. You want to use emdr. And all these wonderful traumatic therapists right now are just all trauma therapists because that's all we're dealing with is the consequences of childhood trauma. Now it's so pervasive that most therapists get specialization in this area and help you reconnect wire, literally get the wiring of your brain back into that part of yourself so that part is able to communicate with the rest of your brain and get its needs met without these problems, primitive feelings, without, you know, making you feel crazy, without being attracted to circumstances that are destructive for you, without motivating you to use drugs and alcohol. So it's really important to get some, get some treatment. Treatment does really work.

[Michael Malice]

So what do you think is the biggest. I know this is kind of a silly question. What do you think is like the biggest hold up that keeps people from having had this done to them from getting help?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

There's two. Two realistic things. One is it's expensive. It's hard to. It's hard to get them. It's all paid for. There are resources. You can find it. You have to be motivated. But the bigger thing is there's a fear and it's irrational. I assure you it doesn't work like this that you're going to. In treatment. You're going to require the individual to revivify the experience of trauma, which is shattering. We're not going to do that. We're going to allow you tolerable doses of access to that part of yourself, so you can slowly reintegrate it and regulate it. But that feeling of wanting to just be away from it is what prevents people from going in.

[Michael Malice]

Is there also this thing of if I say it out loud, therefore, it becomes true, so I can just keep it stuck on the rug?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No, no, it's more. It's more that it's going to destroy me. The feelings are just going to destroy me. You know, you brought up the psychoanalysis. You know, psychoanalysis is a good thing. It's an interesting thing. But it captured American psychiatry for 50 years. It really destroyed psychiatry for 50 years till we got back to psychiatrists being doctors again. It was such a. There's a great book by a guy named Lieberman called Shrink that goes over this history of how psychoanalysis. We're the only country in the world that did that. It happened in Austria for a minute, and then we took it the rest of the way. And there's an interesting story, though, that was, I think, pertinent to our present moment is, you know, Freud was revered here. And so he came, finally came to the United States to sort of look around, and the reporters, you know, are putting questions in his face when he arrived on the docks and he said, freud, what do you hope to achieve here in America? And he goes, well, I hope to find. To really understand the difference between bonafide mental illness and psychopathology and ordinary misery. And ordinary misery is a good thing. Too much in Soviet Russia. Too much where we started this conversation with our heritage. But ordinary misery is a good thing. It creates resiliency and change and regulatory capacity. And we in this country, we dare not be offended. We dare not have anything disrupt our wellness. Misery is a good thing. It's not fun, but it helps us grow.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Hard times create tough men.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yep.

[Michael Malice]

And I think as I get older, and I'm sure you've had this experience as well. To me, one of the maybe only, but whatever positives of having gone through difficult things is when you're talking to younger people and they're at those crossroads and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't go the left. You want to go the right. I've been through this. I took the left. And then you kind of. It's almost like a healing thing where it's like, well, my bad thing happened and it's resolved, but at least I. Having something positive out of it, that I can guide someone along and keep them from making that Same mistake I had.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

And isn't it interesting that you go right to helping somebody else? Because that's how humans make sense of.

[Michael Malice]

Oh yeah, you're right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Horrible things by, by making a difference for others. That, that's a, there's a perfect way to deal with miserable, miserable stuff.

[Michael Malice]

Are you a fan of Camus as well?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Not really. You know, I mean, I've read that stuff and I really, I'm not a Sartre fan either, but I, I do kind of. I did enjoy digging around in Heidegger. I know he's a Nazi. I know, I know, I know. But, but, but he had some interesting ideas and it's just, it's just a, interesting exercise to go through his stuff. But, you know, you do, you do. Sartre does leave us with one question that, that I, I like. And, and I, and I think it's the domain of physics and not philosophy, which is why is there something rather than nothing?

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That's really what he, he leaves us with. And that's a great question.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I, I, I think what I like about Camus and, and he wouldn't, he would dispute being put in the same box as sa. Purely academic is his idea that the inherent meaninglessness of life is an enormous opportunity for each of us to kind of imbue meaning to it. And in the example we're discussing, okay, I had this awful thing happen to me. What's the meaning? I'm going to ascribe to it. Well, the meaning could be, you know, I took that bullet so someone else won't take 10. And if you look at it in that context, it's like, you know what, it's kind of nudged the world in a bad direction on net.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

If he was so negative though, but, but yeah, I agree with that. If you, if you're able to come away with that, that I don't think

[Michael Malice]

he was negative at all. Wait, you think he's negative?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

What's the myth making machines? Rhinoceros.

[Michael Malice]

What about. It's like, come on, what about the myth of Sisyphus?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I didn't read it.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, let me spoil it for. So this was how the conclusion of my book the New. Right. And it's something that's affect me profoundly. So people don't know that Sisyphus was a Greek figure, Greek myth, and he was punished by the gods. So for eternity he has to roll a rock up a hill and at the very last moment the rock slips away. And he gets to keep doing this, trying to get the rock goes down the Other side.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah, Right.

[Michael Malice]

And Camus breaks down in his. There's a book called the Myth of Sisyphus, which is his look at absurdism in literature. And I'd been recommending people for years. And then I reread it myself. I'm like, oh, 90% of this is. Is a waste. Just read the last essay, which is called the Mythosis. And his point is the conclusory line. Spoiler is. One must imagine Sisyphus happy. The idea that if you find meaning in what you are doing and like, okay, I'm that guy who's putting a rock up a hill. Let me try it again. Let me try it again.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It's a Buddhist principle.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, but that's not negative at all. It's extremely positive.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I'm okay with that.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Well, because you said he was a negative.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

He just. His interviews and stuff, he just seems so negative. So that might be more of a. Flames were. So, like, that might be.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. I don't like his fiction at all, but I adore his nonfiction. One of his other. If you people Google Camus quotes, you're going to be brought. He. He's the one who said, man must live live to the point of tears. And he had this other great quote about maybe it's not about happy endings. Maybe it's about the journey, which I think is just a masterpiece of a quote.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, folks, head over to malice.locals.com where Drew took questions from supporting listeners. You can join yourself. Just five bucks. I have to apologize. This. It wasn't. The torture was. This wasn't a troll. I had this whole segment planned, but I. Because we had such a good conversation, we never get around to it. So next time, and hopefully next time you're in Austin, I could take you upstairs and show you Rob Spears autograph, which I have framed and hanging in my kitchen.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

How did you get that?

[Michael Malice]

I paid for it. What do you mean?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

But I mean, is. How did. Is it like on a document or something? Is it?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Wow. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And all seven.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Interesting character. Interesting figure. What I would say of him is cultivate humility, everybody. You could end up like Rose Pierre.

[Michael Malice]

I also have from the 1800s, a toy guillotine that I will show you displayed in my kitchen with a little wooden box for the head. Dr. Drew, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Spending time with you. I always enjoy spending time with you, and so I miss it when we don't get to hang out and this is how we get to hang out. So this is great.

[Michael Malice]

I will see you in Austin and you are welcome. Foreign. Hey, it's James Alucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand up comic and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I I started the James Altruist show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Altucher Show. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

We're coming at you with everything we got.

[Michael Malice]

This is the mindset free. This is the mantra. This is

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

with movies like Pineapple Express,

[Michael Malice]

the entire Star Trek film franchise and

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Gladiator, and TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the Fairly Odd Parents and Ghosts.

[Michael Malice]

Pluto TV is always free. Huzzah. Pluto TV stream now pay never.