← "YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice
"YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice
Historian Arthur Herman on How the Founder Mindset Made Us Thrive | “YOUR WELCOME” #412
01:08:01
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- [00:01]
Michael Malice
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- [00:22]
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- [00:51]
Michael Malice
folks. My new graphic novel, Unwanted A tall tale of the old Westland New Wave is out for pre order now. I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it out@unwantedbook.com.
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Ad Read Announcer
Foreign.
- [01:34]
Michael Malice
Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. We are going to have a very long introduction for our next guest because I have his new book and there's a whole big backstory. So sit back and relax. We have returning with us one of my two favorite historians. Sorry, Arthur, there's two of you. Arthur Herman. Arthur wrote what I think is one of the 10 most important books I've ever read. It's called the Idea of Decline and I always forget the last word. The idea of Decline in Western History. I could not have written the white pill right there without it because what Arthur did was go through generation, generation, and people are like, look, things are terrible, it's all going to go to hell. And yep, the things are terrible, they're not wrong. But somehow things revert back to the mean and he just goes through generation, generation of all these apoplectic apocalyptic fears and how they never came to fruition. And as I joked with Arthur, it's all downhill from here after his first book. I also referenced you a couple weeks ago because I had Count Dankula on the show and your other book, which I haven't even read yet, but I'm familiar with the thesis, which is how the Scots Invented the Modern World, which talks about how much impact the Scottish people, who are not big in number, had on Western civilization. It's enormously profound, totally punching above their weight. And and I'm sure you didn't see the episode, but I was talking to Dankula, who is a Scotsman, how angry it makes Me, as someone who's never even been to Scotland, how there is a more Scottish pride. And if there's one people who should be like, throwing in your face, yeah, well, the Scots did that. They're them. And to have them kind of be in any sense backpedaling or downplaying their accomplishments to me is completely insane. So it's not enough that you wrote one absolute masterpiece. You also, and this is the book that made me a bit intellectually intimidated by you. The Cave in the Light, Plato versus Aristotle, and the struggle for the soul of Western civilization. And what Arthur does is he takes Plato's views, which is this world of ideas, and like, hey, if I can imagine it, we can make it happen. And an Aristotle who's very much grounded in reality, and reality has certain laws that you cannot avoid, nor can you escape. There's nowhere else to go. And he traces the path as each of these ideas takes ascendance in civilization and its consequences up through the 20th century. Absolutely superb book. It's just. It's almost like a murder mystery. It's exciting to read. Who's going to win, even though you know the history and how it plays out. My favorite part of that book, I think, was your treatment of St. Augustine, through which I learned a. It's pronounced Augustine and not Augustine, but also the fact that even though his City of God is a. A dark book and he's very much fixated on man as a fallen figure and, you know, this doom and gloom view of the world, this fallen earth, he still has this sense of, no, no, no, no, no. You have to have faith. It's going to work out in the end. You know, we're just going to have to get through this tough stuff, but hold the fort. Which I thought was a very interesting take on his views and a little bit of how he's not perceived. So then I got this one, and let me tell you my thought process. So I get an email from your lovely love Beth, who I got to meet several years ago, who's a complete joy.
- [04:42]
Arthur Herman
And she's like, arthur, she sends her best.
- [04:45]
Michael Malice
Oh, okay, awesome. She goes. He goes. She goes, would you have Arthur on your show? I say, of course. I sell the publicist. Send me a copy, a signed copy. It's not signed, but that's okay. I'll get it signed.
- [04:56]
Arthur Herman
We'll have to do that when we come to Austin.
- [04:57]
Michael Malice
We'll be doing that with great pleasure. And I saw the title. I'm going to walk you through my thought process. Just bear with me for founders fire from 1776 to the age of Trump. And I thought, oh God, this is going to be some conservative, you know, red meat about the founding Fathers, how great they were, blah, blah, blah. But then I read the first paragraph of the blurb, the jacket, and it goes, whether it's 1776 or the era of Donald Trump and Elon Musk, Arthur Herman argues that the United States has always been propelled forward by a special kind of leader, the founder. And I'm like, oh wow, this is something I'm super excited to read because there's this concept which I don't know if you would subscribe to by associated with Thomas Carlile, which is the Great man theory of history. And Rand certainly has this view as well, that history isn't like Mark says, of the masses, but there are men who strictly, by the force of their intelligence and their hard work, make life better for everybody else, often fighting everybody else who do not want change and progress, not in the leftist sense, but the sense of making humanity better. And in this book you trace that path. You go from 1787, you're talking about the Gilded Age, you talk about the two world wars and then the Rust Belt. Am I getting the gist right?
- [06:19]
Arthur Herman
You're getting the gist totally right. And that what you called the Great man theory of history, which people will have sometimes ascribed to me because I do see the role of historic individuals pushing forward, moving history forward in, in. In powerful ways and in a. In and in ways that, that we benefit from in, In. In. In. In future generations benefit from. But part of the point of this book, Michael too, is, is that, is that generating that kind of founder, that kind of forward pushing personality is something that is very much part of what it is that has made American history and that it is part of the American character people call American exceptionalism, has been the way in which these kinds of figures spring up all the time throughout our history, going all the way back even before 1776, with the role that you see with the Puritans and the Pilgrims, that what was described as the errand into the wilderness and that sense that they had Even in the 17th century, the very first settlers here, that on the one hand they were chosen by God, right, That's part of their Puritan theology, that sense of being God's elect. But, but that doesn't give you a sense of entitlement, that you're God's chosen. But you're here to do really hard work. And part of that work was that you're living in a world in which there are no familiar landmarks. It's nothing like the land that you left behind. And that's true for all immigrants who come here. It's totally different from their experience elsewhere. I did this book on Scandinavian Americans, the Viking heart, and all the way through there, too, realizing that although the terrain and the landscape in some ways was similar to the world that they left behind in Sweden and Norway, and yet it's a completely different experience. Every part of America is about a venture into the unknown, and that this has carried forward and shaped our culture in ways that shape our view of business, our view of capitalism, and how different that is. And what this book, in many ways, is about is why we are so different from our European cousins, if you like. We share a similar heritage in many regards, and yet we've developed into a completely different type of culture, one that celebrates what you were just talking about, that pushing forward, that deciding that you're going to venture forth and take on a task, use your own personal energy and your own personal vision as a way to get. Is a way to move forward, to get rich in the process. Yes. But also at the same time that you have this vision of what could be better and what. What could. What your contribution could be for making America and making the world a better place.
- [09:21]
Michael Malice
I think America, and I say this, even if someone is fairly well traveled, I think Americans tend to be completely insular in their perception of the outside world. And there's so many things here in America we take for granted. Even in England, which I'd say culturally is probably the country that's closest to us. I've British friends. That's right. The idea of ambition and, you know, moving up, you know, the social ranks, which is something which is 101Americanism, which is taught, you know, to kids, even the lowest rungs of poverty, that's something that in British culture is not a thing like it is here. It's kind of like, first of all, in Great Britain, just from your accent, I can tell how wealthy you are. So just as soon as you open your mouth, I have these cues. But it's. It's also this idea of, look, you're born into here, and maybe you go up a little or not, but that's where you're going to stay. You have literal royalty and aristocracy, and you're never going to be one of them. And somehow they're inherently better than the rest of us, which is something which, to an American mind is completely unhinged. But this kind of like also this sense, I think, in America of, you know, Arthur, when, if your book's a huge success, I hope it is, I'm happy for you. It's like, hell yeah. And vice versa. And I don't think that's a thing in other countries as it is here.
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Arthur Herman
Not at all.
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Michael Malice
And when we see people achieve, especially through their own merits, like on a crowdfunded thing or something like that, people applaud, not ironically and earnestly, even people who are normally cynical.
- [10:48]
Arthur Herman
Yeah. And, and it is. And, and you know, the. There are countries in which that does apply. And the other country like that, I think is most like the United States, and that's. Is Israel. I mean, there's, there's every reason why a book is written about it called Startup Nation, and why you have people in, living in Tel Aviv or in, or in Haifa or in Jerusalem, you know, young, young people who suddenly say, I'm going to set up my own business. I'm going to do it right here in my, in my, in my room, in my apartment and then move down the street. That is something which Americans can identify with and connect with because that's our experience. But it's completely foreign to the world in which Europeans grow up, or Asians for that matter, too. And in the case of England, like you were saying, those who do cross those class lines are viewed with suspicion.
- [11:40]
Michael Malice
Yes.
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Arthur Herman
You know, that if to do that you must have done something dishonest or you must have abandoned some aspect of humanity to be, you know, work your work up from a working class background, you know, growing up in Brixton somewhere and then making it, becoming a multimillionaire. There's something, something has gone wrong. What I worry about, and one reason I wrote this book, Michael, too, is that you see a lot of that creeping into American society, American culture as well, with the whole way in which our Silicon Valley founders. And I have a couple of chapters about how important that founding instinct and founders are in shaping the entire tech economy that we have, that the world has, from Steve Jobs and Bill Gates to Elon Musk and beyond, that these are now being treated as being rubber barons like their 19th century forebears. That there's something, again, dishonest, that must have created something that's created this kind of wealth that, that reflects a dehumanization of those who are involved with it. You know, a film that I think very much reflects that a recent film is the one with Daniel Day Lewis where he's the oil magnate. There. It must be. There must Be blood. It's about his. He's playing the part of a wildcatter in Oklahoma. Wildcatter who makes a sudden fortune in the oil business. And step by step, he loses his humanity. You know, as his wealth grows, as his empire grows, he. And this is such a cliche, but it is in many ways, especially in the literary and the intellectual world, where people who make money, people who establish businesses, successful businesses, are seen as greedy. Right. And for that reason, it's such a cliche, but it's also a dangerous one when it creeps in and becomes the mainstream, the mainstream of culture. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted people in reading Freedom's Fire to come to appreciate the role that that plays, that founder, that founder instinct, that drive, that vision, that willingness to risk, risk everything to achieve a goal, Just how important it is to our history and to be celebrated as part of what it is that makes us Americans.
- [14:09]
Michael Malice
And not only to risk, but to certainly fail. Because I think every founder, almost that exception along the way, blows it. And they have to have that kind of come to Jesus moment. We're like, all right, am I a joke? Am I one of the ones who's going to bash his head against the wall? Or is this just a setback? I have to keep going? And I think so much of success in any industry is much more about persistence rather than talent or something else. If you're the guy standing there when everyone else went home, at the very least, you're going to win by default.
- [14:40]
Arthur Herman
There's someone who did a demographic study of millionaires in America, and the. On average, they failed in a business or in a job seven times. Yeah, that, that. It's. It's the. It's the eighth. It's the eighth attempt at keeping even. Just keeping a job, or eighth attempt at finding a business that finally takes off. And for. For so many people, the energy and the drive tails off after the second or the third. And then they blame the system. They say it's the systems that fault. I'm just a victim of an unfair system. And this is a book about people who are the opposite of victims. It's about the people in our history, from the original founding fathers through the 19th century to even figures like Abraham Lincoln. And I have a chapter in there on Martin Luther King as well, who I think had that same kind of founder vision and drive and willing to risk it all to achieve an end, to make America more consistent with its founding principles. That kind of mentality, that kind of mindset. Is one that is built into our culture, built into our society, and it needs to be really understood and recognized and celebrated as such.
- [15:59]
Michael Malice
The book's coming out this week, correct?
- [16:01]
Arthur Herman
Came out yesterday.
- [16:02]
Michael Malice
Yeah, but the, what's, why I bring that up is there's a, there's a website which I'm sure you don't frequent, called goodreads.com and I use, to keep track of Goodreads.
- [16:10]
Arthur Herman
I know it. Yeah.
- [16:10]
Michael Malice
Okay. And so what, NetGalley is a website and they sent out previews of the book of many books to people. And your book has one negative review. And the negative review is this guy only talks about white men.
- [16:26]
Arthur Herman
And it's like, well, actually, that, that's, that's factually wrong since I also, that's
- [16:32]
Michael Malice
why I brought it up.
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Arthur Herman
Martin Luther King, it's like, and, and also Medgar Evers, who is another one of the, I think, forgotten heroes and figures in this enormously brave. Who's kind of overshadowed by kind of, whose career in the civil rights movement was really overshadowed by Martin Luther King. Medgar Evers. By the way, do you know who wrote I shouldn't plug other people's books, but I'm going to do it. You know who wrote a really wonderful book about Medgar Evers? And his wife was Joy Reed.
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Michael Malice
Oh, really?
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Arthur Herman
The, the ultra left commentator. And so.
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Michael Malice
Joy Reed. I thought you meant John Reed. I'm like, wait, what?
- [17:09]
Arthur Herman
No, not John Reed.
- [17:10]
Michael Malice
Oh, Joy and Reed. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:12]
Arthur Herman
Wonderful book about Medgar Evers. Really well written, beautifully done, great interviews and so on. Got to give her credit where credit counts. But no, so the guy, the, the review is completely wrong.
- [17:23]
Michael Malice
Hold on.
- [17:24]
Arthur Herman
Completely off the mark.
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Michael Malice
Arthur, hold on. There's no way that she wrote that book.
- [17:33]
Arthur Herman
Okay. Well, I mean, there's her name and it's a wonderful book. That's, that's all I'm gonna say. That's all.
- [17:39]
Michael Malice
I'm not disputing that. It's a wonderful book. Book. I am disputing that. Just Bill O'Reilly turns out a book a week and there's no distract to Mr. Riley, but he's not writing them.
- [17:49]
Arthur Herman
Okay, fair enough. You see, I'm, I'm the kind of person, I'm a naive type who would sort of say, gosh, this is a whole other aspect of Joy Reid that I don't recognize from her television appearances and so on. Yeah, the skilled and careful scholar, you know, with the, with the eloquent, eloquent prose, etc. I, I, this is, but, you know, by the way. That's another characteristic of founders, and that is founders tend to be, almost without exception, optimists about. They couldn't. They wouldn't be optimists if they have to be. In order to create a business out of nothing and to try and build something in with the hope and taking the risks that are involved in it, you've got to feel a sense that. That things are going to come out okay, that people are. People are who they say they are, and that. That. That things are going to happen in the right way for you and for us in order to build these kinds of businesses, in order to engage in this kind of activity.
- [18:52]
Michael Malice
I remember George W. Bush's memoir came out, and I went to the bookstore and I picked it up and page one, it was like I was sitting in the balcony and looking at the sky, and as the clouds flew, I'm like, he doesn't talk like this. It was so like. And I know, as a former co author, like, there's two schools of thought. One is to be as literary as possible. The other is to be as conversational as possible, especially if you know how the person actually talks. I'm entirely in that second school, and I'm sitting there and I'm like, I can't wrap my head around anyone. No matter what you feel about George W. Bush reading this and being like, oh, yeah,
- [19:34]
Arthur Herman
that's.
- [19:34]
Michael Malice
That's him. Yeah. So the same thing with Joanne Reed, you know, I.
- [19:41]
Arthur Herman
Fair enough, fair enough. All I can say is. All I can say is, is that. That, I mean, Martin Luther King was not a business man evers, for that matter. But what they had was that same kind of push, that same kind of founder mentality, but which is, you know, which is true for a lot of activists.
- [20:02]
Michael Malice
Oh, yeah.
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Arthur Herman
But what made their. In what made their influence, and I stress this in the book. What made that push, and same with Abraham Lincoln, again at the same regard, was that their vision was a fulfillment of what the original founding principles were all about, and in particular, that of the Declaration of Independence. And that gave them a kind of moral springboard. And one tends to forget in the shadow of everything that has happened since King's assassination, the degree to which he was able to really strike a chord with Americans across the country, even with some Southerners, although it was difficult for them to say so, to realize that, yeah, he is talking about a fundamental rule of justice that Americans need to embrace and need to take on. So the book is very much about business people who are involved in this, particularly in the modern, modern era. But it's also about that founder instinct, that founder mentality which goes out and creates other kinds of institutions. Universities creates, in this case, the civil rights movement. That creates a whole range of other activities that demand the same qualities, the same desire, the same drive, the same willingness to take risks, and as you were saying, the same willingness to absorb failure and to pick up and to move on and learn the lessons from the last failure and push to the next level. That's also characteristic of American society.
- [21:40]
Michael Malice
Folks, time to get some new underwear, because you're always crapping your pants. You sicken me. And if you want to get in some good underwear, the only underwear I wear and the only underwear I've worn for years, that is sheath underwear, which I have modeled for, thank you very much. What makes sheath underwear special and the best underwear on the market is they have a dual pouch. That means one part for one part of your male anatomy, another part for another part of your male anatomy. First time you try it on, you're gonna be like, okay, this is weird. I don't know what's happening downstairs. But then you will swear by it. And I have to tell you, if you're talking to someone, job interview date, knowing that your underwear is separating and cupping your junk is kind of fun. You could just sit there with a smile on your face knowing what's happening downstairs. It's the most comfortable underwear you wear. It keeps you cool in the summer, and it also, in hot environments, it keeps you from getting all funky, if you know what I'm saying. So here's what I want you to do. Go to sheath.com, use promo code malice. You get 20% off today. They've got bamboo shirts. They've got hoodies. I wear the shirts to the gym, but of course, I wear their underwear everywhere, even in bed. Sheath.com promo code Malice. Get 20% off today. That's M A L I C E for 20% off. @sheath.com, join me in becoming a proud sheath wearer and a proud member of the dual pouch club. Let's get back to the show. One of the things that I find impressive about Martin Luther King, you know, I was just on Fox News not that long ago on Will Caine show, and I was making the point to him how the electorate is perfectly happy to have contradictory views in their mind. So they want, on one hand, mass deportation of illegal immigrants, especially those who are criminals. But we don't want the ICE going door to door and pulling people out of their House. Well, you can't really have the former without the other. You could send them all the form letters you want. But a certain point, if someone's like, hey, it's in my interest to stay here, even as an illegal, rather than go back home, you're going to have to forcibly remove them. And this is kind of, this contradiction, but I think Martin Luther King played on that in the other sense, which is there are plenty of people who are racist, bigoted, you know, don't want interracial marriage, thinks black people are inferior, but they turn on the TV and they saw men and women in suits and very well dressed being attacked by dogs and fire hoses and beaten. And they're like, okay, I might be prejudiced and bigoted. I'm not for this. This. I can't. This is too much.
- [24:08]
Arthur Herman
I should draw the line here. Yeah, yeah, I think that's really true.
- [24:12]
Michael Malice
That's what he did. I think that was really, really smart.
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Arthur Herman
Yeah, no, I think that. I think that's right. And likewise, you saw that with slavery too.
- [24:20]
Michael Malice
Oh, yes.
- [24:21]
Arthur Herman
In the, in the 19th century as well. Contradictory. On the one hand, hey, it's property rights. Who am I living in. In Ohio where we don't have slavery? Who am I to say that people in the. In south of the Mason Dixon line shouldn't be allowed to have slaves? And to try and coerce them to, to give that up without reparations, without any, is unfair. But at the same time, at the same time, when confronted with the reality of slavery, sort of saying, no, this is really ugly. This is really awful. And as I explained in the book, this is what had also happened to Lincoln, you know, as a young man. The issue he. And he describes in a letter to a friend of his, the sight of seeing a line of blacks in chains being escorted in chains. And he says that he's never forgotten that site. And although as a politician before the Civil War, he was willing to say, you know what, we're not here to abolish slavery. We're simply drawing the limits. This is as far as you go west. And that this is. This is a principle, but we're going to live, let you live the way in the institutions that you're comfortable with in order to hold the Union together. But at the same time, there was this visceral hatred of this institution of human chattel slavery that when the opportunity came to say, it's either either we're going to be all slave or all free, it was easy for him to say, we're Going to go to war to solve this problem, which is.
- [26:08]
Michael Malice
Yeah, I think people, I think that wasn't only unique to Lincoln at the time. There are lots of politicians who, because again, we don't have television, then you have radio, you don't have movies, you only have etchings. Maybe photography was just starting very famously with Matthew Brady. And it's one thing to read about the horrors of something, it's another thing to be going to work and seeing a bunch of men or men and women in chains being marched through the street. And it's something that you just, it's, you said viscerally. It's like, holy crap, this is, this is just something unconscionable. And how is this happening? The thing about Lincoln, which I also find fascinating and I'd love to hear you speak more about this is the Republican Party had just started. Basically they had run John Fremont in the previous 1856 campaign, but they're basically third party coming out of nowhere. Lincoln had, I believe, one term in the House he ran for Senate against. It was the Lincoln Douglas debates very famously lost. And it's like the, and this, it's like, okay, you're going to run for president with one House term under your belt. Never been a governor, never been a senator, not that they like particular acting senators. And now you're going to run for president from some rando party that doesn't really exist. I mean, and yet he did it. So he did. Definitely someone who had a history of. And you know, and you know, and
- [27:29]
Arthur Herman
that's exactly the kind of founder startup. In other words, what he was creating, if you like, was a kind of startup presidency.
- [27:36]
Michael Malice
Yeah.
- [27:37]
Arthur Herman
Starting from his law office in, in, in Illinois and sort of saying, you know what? This country needs me as president. This is really what he, what he could had believed and then finding ways to make that vision true and come into reality. The Lincoln Douglas debates had made him a national celebrity, there's no doubt about it. So on the one hand he lost the election, but he had won the debate over Douglass about what the future of slavery was going to look like. Because Douglass's idea that through the principle of popular sovereignty, that if you allow the people in a state or in a territory like Kansas to decide if they want to be a free state or a slave state, and the majority decides they're going to be a free state, then they can freeze out slavery. And therefore through popular sovereignty, through Democratic means, you resolve an issue which has haunted us since the founding. What to do about slavery in the land of liberty. And what Lincoln pointed out was that with that same principle, you could also have a state that decides that we're going to have slavery, which is now currently free under those conditions, and that there's no way that you could stop the spread of slavery. If people can vote simply by majority rule, instead of saying, this is a violation of the Constitution, and then this must be. This must be stopped as a violation of the basic principles on which this nation was founded. So the Republican Party for him was a vehicle by which to turn the notoriety had won through the Lincoln Douglas debates into a national political campaign and a platform funnel. And he and this very select group of team of advisors, his brain trust and people like David Davis, who become his main campaign advisor, are the ones then who use the dynamics of the convention in Chicago and the clash between the other rival candidates, the leading candidates for presidency. And they managed to work it in so that in everybody's mind, Lincoln is always the second choice. Yeah. So when Salmon Salon, P. Chase and the other leading candidates drop away and show that they can't win the convention, then everybody is willing to say, yeah, well, I didn't get my first choice, but, hey, I'm okay with the second choice, and that's Lincoln.
- [30:16]
Michael Malice
So my house is basically like a museum. And I look forward to you next time you're in Austin, dropping by, because I do have framed in my living room in a faux rusty frame, an issue of William Lloyd Garrison's magazine newspaper, the Liberator, which is just absolutely really cool. But I had just at my feet, I have here John Brown's autograph in a frame that mimics the news.
- [30:40]
Arthur Herman
Where did you find that?
- [30:42]
Michael Malice
Auction houses. There's. There's all sorts of cool stuff you could find online. It's not that expensive, but he's.
- [30:47]
Arthur Herman
It's interesting. Garrison and Brown are interesting characters because, I mean, they. They appear in the book, but they are in many ways not the kind of founders that I'm talking about.
- [31:00]
Michael Malice
Oh, no, no, no, no.
- [31:01]
Arthur Herman
Yeah, because they are. They're. They're rebels. They're dissidents, by all means. And if we think about America as a history of, you know, amazing dissidents, as some people have done, then they obviously stand out. But neither one of them was capable of building a movement or building a platform from which they could act and shape the political agenda. In some ways, they were, in a sense, figures. And you run into these in American history as well, of figures who thrust themselves forward, who are charismatic, who have this kind of personal Will. Will to power that comes with it, but have no vision, no constructive vision to which others can be drawn. And they can really reshape institutions. They're simply left to rebel or to try to destroy those institutions. And. And we can think of many examples in. In American history of figures like this. It is, I think, what distinguishes someone like Martin Luther King from Malcolm X, for example. I think it's what also distinguishes people like the Founding Fathers from a president like Andrew Jackson. I talk about Jackson in the book because he has all the characteristics of a great founder except one, and that is he has no constructive vision. For him, everything as a presidency is to strike things down, to smash things, to prevent things from happening, instead of building. Building a greater future with it as well. So the book is about. It's about founders on the one hand, Michael, but it's also about the people who aren't. And the. And the inevitable struggles and conflicts that arise throughout American history, throughout even the life of an amer, of a business, of a single business or a corporation between those who are, have that founder pushed forward, that desire, that vision for which they're willing to take risks, and those who say, you know what? I don't think I'm really ready for that. I think it's better if our company simply stays with what we know best. Don't venture out into new fields. No, Elon, the last thing in the world we want to do is go into space. Are you crazy? No, no, let's focus on building the best possible electric car that we can here. It's. It's the. What I call the. The founder mentality versus the. The manager mentality. And managers are good. They have their place. They have their role in these things. But in the end, it's the founders, the willingness to defy convention, to break the mold, to move things forward at risk and take the risks that go with it that really changes and shapes American history and shapes the world.
- [34:04]
Michael Malice
I think Henry Ford very famously said, if I asked the elect the populace what I should build, they would set a faster horse. It's funny you talk about Garrison. I have his autograph in my little hall of heroes over my desk. And for people who don't know about him, there's a great biography film called all on Fire. And he was almost lynched in Boston for his anti abolition, anti slavery views
- [34:28]
Arthur Herman
and his big Boston, no less.
- [34:30]
Michael Malice
Yeah. And his big dilemma was he was a pacifist and he thought the north should secede. He thought the Constitution was a covenant with hell. And when The Civil War started. He really kind of was torn because on the one hand, he thought slavery, understandably, was an abomination that needs to be exterminated from the Earth. The other hand, the idea of invading in, like, Sherman's march on Georgia, this is something that he was not comfortable with either. So it's kind of interesting when you see, you know, we have these discussions online or in person and you know, how things are play out. But a lot of times it's not just talk. You know, a lot of times someone fires on Fort Sumter and you've got to figure out, all right, am I for this or am I against this? I don't know how it's going to play out. Which of my principles is going to come forward? And this happened for a lot of Southerners as well, who were not particularly slate. Very few Southerners were slave owners. And lots of the. Plenty Southerners were at least theoretically abolitionist. But they're like, hey, I'm not getting invaded by the north and subjugated, so I'm going to take up arms, you know, for the Confederacy. So.
- [35:34]
Arthur Herman
And then. And then there were those who took up the arms for the Union.
- [35:37]
Michael Malice
Oh, yeah.
- [35:38]
Arthur Herman
I mean, the most outstanding example being George Thomas, General George Thomas, the Rock of Chickamauga. And that was a military talent which the south very much missed in the war. If he had gone the other way and gone with his. Gone with the south and gone with his native state. But instead he said, no, I'm the Union. The Union calls, and that's. That's where my duty lies and where I'm to be engaged in the. In these kinds of things, these kinds of moral dilemmas. American history is built around those, don't you think?
- [36:12]
Michael Malice
Of course.
- [36:13]
Arthur Herman
And. And I think including in the American Revolution itself. And as I explain in the book, in the early chapters, there was intense debate in the Constitutional. In the. In the. In the convention, there was intense debate about. Well, in both. Both events in Philadelphia, it was a big debate about the Continental Congress, about independence, which is reflected somewhat. Well, actually in that. The musical 1776. The figure of John Dickinson. Right. In a lot of ways. But Dickinson's view was held by a lot of people. This is a big mistake getting involved with independence. And besides, we might lose. Right? You might. You're fighting against the British, and you saw it with a Constitutional Convention as well, with some very distinguished figures, like Patrick Henry, for example, who were passionately opposed to the. To the Constitution that, that Hamilton and Madison had put together, the anti Federalists Arguments they still many cases ring true today. Their fear of central government, the fear of creating an over powerful executive in the case of the presidency. And so you face these kinds of dilemmas and you make choices that that arise from them and politicians are forced to do so as well. And it is those who choose that I think what I argue in the book is those who choose the path which is most reflective of the one of the original principles that the founding fathers had laid down both in the Declaration of Independence but then also in the Constitution who tend to be the real, the ones who really move and transform society for the better.
- [38:06]
Michael Malice
It's interesting because I'm an anarchist so I'm not a constitutional a fan of the Constitution per se. And when I point out to people what's the alternative I go and we're taught even in high school that before the Constitution there was the Articles of Confederation and that they work too well to restrain the growth of government. So it's kind of funny because it's this Constitution is sold is like this is a great document that's going to keep the growth of government under control. Well we had that and it worked and that was the problem that it was working. So they replaced it with this and we could see the consequence. Now I'm sure they didn't foresee such a leviathan as has been grown. How could they? But at the same time this idea that it's been as effective that it didn't replace something that was actually working. I think that's something people miss that
- [38:56]
Arthur Herman
that's true and in fact I stress that in the book actually in the chapter on the constant on the the founding of the Constitution. Another founding document is the is it wasn't as if the Articles of Confederation represented you know, it was a disaster.
- [39:12]
Michael Malice
Right.
- [39:13]
Arthur Herman
In fact that was one of the problems for those like Hamilton and Madison and. And Washington that it wasn't like it was. It had glitches. It had its problems like the inability to raise taxes. You had fights between the different states about charging tariffs on inter. On interstate or inter interstate commerce and who was going to control how the tolls on which rivers and things like there were problems in glitches but nothing, nothing too serious. The problem was from the point of view of those who led the Federalist movement was is that the. The issue is we can't afford to be weak in a world surrounded by strong European powers. Not just Great Britain which even after revolution is still a major presence in North America but also Spain and also France. That the inability to engage in united action, particularly united military action, in the face of challenges and threats that we face here. That this is not a system which in which the liberty we've built at great expense and sacrifice in the course of the revolution that the Articles of Confederation is in a sense a diminishing returns on that investment that we've made. And we need a new system in which to protect ourselves but also to protect liberty in the broadest possible sense for everyone living in those living in those separate states and the engagement with it too. So I think, I think again, the anti Federalist versus the Federalist debates, it's not a clear cut vision of one was wrong, wrong turn, one was a right turn. I think we have to understand the way in which that balance continues to be a debate discussion we have right now.
- [41:10]
James Altucher
Hey, it's James Alducher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand up comic and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altucher show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sara Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next next big idea, level up your thinking and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Alputher Show.
- [42:11]
Michael Malice
Book a loved by guest property with VRBO and you get a top rated vacation rental that's loved for all the right reasons. Like being in a great location or having great amenities.
- [42:20]
Arthur Herman
Ugh.
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- [42:22]
Michael Malice
Good reason.
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- [42:26]
Michael Malice
Another good reason.
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- [42:30]
Arthur Herman
Ugh. Love a good hot rock thing. Fancy.
- [42:33]
Michael Malice
That's also a reason. Don't worry about surprises. Book a verbo you'll love with the love by guess filter if you know you verbo. Let's get back to the show. It's interesting because there's that kind of Disney version of American history. And then there's this, even the high school version of American history. And the Disney version is, you know, the Revolutionary War. Every American got together and they're all patriots and, you know, women. That's right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. F you to the Red Coats. And it's like, first of all, I don't think there was ever even a majority who were in favor of the war, Even if they're a majority who are opposed to Britain. But even during the war itself. I forget the general's name, but Washington had to send Hamilton to get some troops from some other general and he was not. It was not an easy conversation because you had all these egos. And it's just like, although George Washington is ostensibly the commander of, you know, all the armed forces, these are my guys you're not taking from me. And same kind of petty politics. You see. Now these were actual men with egos and personalities. And, you know, those things had major consequence. I think that's kind of skimmed over a bit.
- [43:41]
Arthur Herman
And what's amazing is the ability of people like Washington to pull them together.
- [43:46]
Michael Malice
Oh yeah.
- [43:47]
Arthur Herman
As a unit and to make them function in a unified way. And likewise of Madison to pull together all the different strands of ideas. Both of anti federalists. At first he was opposed to the Bill of Rights, thought it was a mistake. So did Hamilton. What do we need a Bill of Rights for? It's ridiculous to feel writing these things down will somehow be significant in terms of protecting liberty under the new Constitution. And then they realized, no, actually that is one of the winning aspects of this new Constitution precisely is the Bill of Rights and the way in which it can assuage a lot of the fears and worries that the anti federalist opposition had with these kinds of things. It's funny you should mention, though, the high school version, because you know what the high school version of American history is now?
- [44:39]
Michael Malice
Oh God.
- [44:39]
Arthur Herman
It's all about racism, imperialism. It is the Project 19 has now swept through our schools, threat through our universities. It's now become standard in many ways, what I wanted to do.
- [44:54]
Michael Malice
1619 Project.
- [44:56]
Arthur Herman
What's that?
- [44:57]
Michael Malice
Do you mean the 1619 Project? Is that what you mean?
- [44:59]
Arthur Herman
Yeah, the 1619 Project. Yeah, yeah. I mean that. That's now become sort of this. That's the standard caricatured view of American history. And I wanted this book to be one that. Which that would reflect a different way of talking. Not the. Not the one. Not the comic book version in which everything that America does is good and that everyone was United in the American Revolution, et cetera, et cetera. The Constitution was this great document and the anti federalists were a bunch of curmudgeons who couldn't see clearly the future. It was is instead to see it in terms of this struggle. Just what we're talking about Michael, that there's this constant struggle here between those who see a brighter, a different vision and move that forward and those who are saying we're not ready for that yet. We're not willing to take the kinds of risks that you're asking us to take in these circumstances, this underway. And it's not always the opposition to what that founding instinct wants and demands isn't always cowardice, it isn't always complacency. It is springs from human emotions which is, is that there's only so much change we can take in a single lifetime or that an institution can endure that you're asking us to do. And in businesses you see the same thing, don't you? Where the original drive and push that the founder has. And as the company gets bigger and bigger, there are more and more constituents within that company and corporation who are sort of saying, you know what, I don't know if the balance, I don't know if our balance sheet is going to be able to carry a change like this or this innovation that you're talking about or new direction and so on. It's really taking us off message and what it is that we do best and that our, our, our, our, our customers are most accustomed to and therefore we don't want to do it. And that's why, that's why it's a, it's an ongoing cycle. The struggle on the one hand of those who want to propel and push forward and those who are sort of resisted sometimes for self interested reasons, sometimes because they say it's just, it's just too risky for us, we just can't engage in it. And then when those who are resistant to change, who will become comfortable with the inertia of bureaucratic institutions, when it reaches a point where there are those who say I can't stand this anymore, I got to get out of here and do something totally different and go off in a totally new direction and they do. And then you get a new generation of founders, a new founding instinct that comes to the surface and again keeps things from becoming stagnant and becoming stuck. And this again, where do we started with the discussion the contrast between America and Europe is Europe has now I think become very stuck fast.
- [48:06]
Michael Malice
Oh yeah.
- [48:07]
Arthur Herman
In that regard and there are founders. There are people who are looking to make and change and to do things differently. But it's very. It's harder and harder for them to gain traction in the societies which have become so hidebound, which have become so stuck in that. In acceptance of inertia and decline as a part of. As a part of everyday life. You don't meet. I don't know about you, Michael. I don't meet a lot of really happy and delighted Western Europeans. They talk about Scandinavians, maybe that's true, but French that you meet, Spaniards that you meet, Italians, they've got serious grievances about life, but not much of a sense of what they can do to change.
- [48:52]
Michael Malice
Yeah, yeah. There's this sense of shrug, like, oh, well, like this is like, life sucks and then you die kind of thing, which is not very American. It's interesting you said this about the founders, because I had an observation yesterday, and there's. It ties into the book and I'll read it to you. So my new thing, which I've started doing and it's. Is instead of if some simpleton feels the need to argue with me on Twitter, instead of me engaging with them, I'll say, hey, Grok, explain the situation. And Grok will explain it better than I can. And Grok has infinite patience because rock does not really exist. And someone said to me, someone said, one of these cretins said to me, the sad part is you need the AI to come up with an argument for you. And I replied, hey, Grok explained to this person, difference between using a tool and needing a tool. Right? You with me?
- [49:48]
Arthur Herman
Yeah, that's right.
- [49:49]
Michael Malice
And Grok says using a tool is what a skilled person does to work smarter, like a carpenter grabbing a power saw instead of a handsaw. Needing a tool is what an unskilled person does because they can't function without it. Here's where it gets interesting. He said, grok says malice isn't dependent on me. He's just using precision technology the way Pro does. You assume the latter because that's how you'd use it, meaning Grok is already at a point that it deduced correctly this person's motivation. And I tweeted this out. I'm saying we're at a civilization tipping point where the AI is a better conversationalist, better explainer, better sense of humor, both perceiving and delivering, and understands human innovations better than the layman. And then Elon retweeted my whole thing, and I feel like I'm standing or we're all standing at this crossroads where there's no question and you and I again are no spring chickens. We've seen this kind of thing before where this new AI technology is going to be extremely disruptive extremely quickly. It's already happening. You have self driving cars in San Francisco. They're now number two after Uber. Lyft is now third. What are you going to do with that person who wants to, you know, drive a car for pin money? Good luck. But also with. You can see why people are opposed to these kind of founders. We don't know what this is going to look like. We didn't. They didn't know what the Constitution was going to look like. You know, when Nancy Pelosi famously said we have to pass to see what's in it, people made fun of her. But she has a point in the sense that no matter what your intentions, you and I, Arthur, could sit down for years and try to write the perfect bill. Until it's passed and put into practice, we're not going to be able to foresee all the eventualities. So I think there's that kind of risk, lack of risk aversion that founders have where they're willing to roll those dice and they might have the vision, but they might not be able to articulate everybody else.
- [51:48]
Arthur Herman
No. And, and, and also too that, that the fact that it is that they are venturing into the unknown.
- [51:55]
Michael Malice
Yeah.
- [51:56]
Arthur Herman
Is part of what excites them.
- [51:58]
Michael Malice
Right.
- [51:59]
Arthur Herman
And that's part of what, that's part of what is, what is. It's the fun. Instead of thinking about AI as a threat, think about as this great amusement park, this place where all kinds of possibilities can be, can be generated and can be found and directions can, can follow from that. That's the way I think founders will think about any new technology. They probably thought the same thing about when someone sort of said, I've got this thing and there's a wheel, what do you want to do with it? And so on. And people will sort of say, well, you could probably hang washing on it. That sounds like a great plan for it. Actually, I had a slightly different vision of how to use, how to use the wheel in other kinds of ways. You know, and speaking of driverless autonomous vehicles, when I was in Austin last spring, I was there and I had an appointment that from my hotel. And so both coming and going, I used the Vemo, the driverless car, which I had never been in before. And I thought it was a great experience. It was very enjoyable going back and forth but what was interesting, Michael, I have to tell you this. What was interesting was the first one, the first car that I took from the hotel to the appointment, whenever we came up to, you know, you're just driving in downtown Austin, right? Whenever we came up to a yellow light, light turned yellow, would slow down and stop and then wait till it turns green and then go forward. The second one, on the way back from the restaurant, when the light would turn yellow, it would speed up. Oh, and go through this, go through the intersection. You know, I was like, oh, that's very interesting. And then at one intersection, as the light turned yellow and the car speeded up, a kid on a skateboard went right across the road, right in front of us. And the car handled it beautifully. You know, if I had been driving that moment, I would have slammed on the brakes. It would have been, oh my God. But it handled. It just, it was like, we're going to go through this yellow light. We're not going to wait, but we're going to let him go through at the same time. It was effortless, it was as smooth. I was impressed by the fact that there was able to handle that situation so effortlessly. But also the different personalities of the two cars. You know, the one extremely cautious, you're like going to come and turn. The other one, you're like, let's go.
- [54:35]
Michael Malice
It could be, maybe it knows if you're going to a population dense area to be more cautious and if you're fleeing a population dense area, you can be more loose.
- [54:44]
Arthur Herman
Possibly could be, I don't know. And we were fought, we were going the same way, just coming and going. It was exactly.
- [54:49]
Michael Malice
If you're going away from the population center, maybe I'm just trying to figure out how it's making some decision. There's some logic there that it's following. By the way, do you know the history, Something very fun for people. Do you know the history of how lightning rods were built? No. Oh, this is.
- [55:06]
Arthur Herman
Tell me this one.
- [55:07]
Michael Malice
Something that drives me crazy is when people assume that religious people are dumb, right? Because even if their premises are incorrect, they're still often highly logical in their thinking. And you talk about this extensively in the cave, in the light. So when lightning rods in all these towns, the church was always the one that got struck by lightning, right?
- [55:31]
Arthur Herman
And I was built on a structure, right?
- [55:33]
Michael Malice
And we know now it's because it's the tallest. But at the time they could say with a straight face, what it's a coincidence that God's always hitting the church. So when they had the lightning rods and you would put in the church, then they were pissed because like, how are we going to know when God's angry at us because he's not burning down the church all the time anymore. So this was a, you know, a fascinating moment in like world history where it's, you can understand their thought process and why they'd be averse to this technology. Because if God's angry at you, you really want to know about it.
- [56:09]
Arthur Herman
I think you do. I think that you don't want to sort of hold a private grudge. That's not, that's not good. That's not, Put it out there. God put it out there. Please let us know what we can do to straighten out and to straighten up and fly right.
- [56:25]
Michael Malice
The last and obvious question is, do you think this kind of founders fire is something that is receding in present society? Because I feel like everyone's always saying like in your the idea of decline, oh, everyone's lazy now. Oh, everyone's dumb now. It's always been the outlier. No matter how many, what year it is, it's going to be that rare individual out of a billion or a million. So do you see that's the case now or is it that just claptrap
- [56:53]
Arthur Herman
now here's optimist speaking, but I think it's a rational optimist and that is, I don't see it receding. In fact, I think it, I think it has, I think it flows in different channels within the culture and the place where I see it all the time in the great, and I finished the book with it is Shark Tank. Shark Tank is a great example of an American entrepreneurial spirit, you know, resurfacing with generations. You know, you get 12 year old kids who show up on that show and who will make their pitch for their business. And it's always interesting too because the pitch very rarely is about I'm really poor and I want to be really rich. So therefore, therefore I'm setting up my own business to sell whatever, you know, boat special, a clean, renewable bow ties, whatever it is the business is, it's almost always couched in a way in which this is my vision of how this business can make it a better world. And I don't think it was just, I think it is very much people who make that kind of commitment, who spend their life savings, their family life savings, they don't just do it on a whim or the way you would bet on a bet on horses at the track and Sort of hope that it comes out and you get, and your number comes up. That kind of commitment is there. But what I was also interesting, and I mentioned this with talking about Shark Tank is, is that they're in, they're talking to a group of four or five, however many of the sharks that are there. Right. Mark Cuban and Kevin o' Leary and, and, and Lori Grenier and they're making their pitch and very often they don't get a deal. Yeah. You know, in fact, what they're told is this is coming to the wrong time, I don't like this product, you haven't really thought through this, etc. Etc. And what's interesting is, is that when they come off of the, the stage and, and they're, and they're interviewed at the camera, almost always the reaction is they are going to be so sorry that they say no, you know, they're not at all put off by the failure or even of these senior expert figures in the field, you know, and, and, and for, you know, you can think of a lot of people in the world of academics, for example, who'd be devastated by having the experts, the expert panel turn you down, sort of say it's just not worth it here, for whom that would be a devastating impact. But that founder spirit that I talk about throughout the book is one that is, and we touched on this, didn't we? It's not deterred by failure. Failure is the part of the learning curve that you move forward and step forward and so you come away from the Shark Tank panel with no money and so on. That's fine. I learned what I need to do now. I'm going to keep going with that. I see that founder spirit. I see that very much in the right places and functioning at the right times. And I don't despair over our Gen Z or any of the other future commerce that are here. I see them as doing this and embracing it. What I hope this book will do is be to help them and others understand what's really going on here and how this is really part of the warp and woof of American culture, of American exceptionalism that we've been able to embrace and really build upon for what are we now? At 250 years you've been mobilizing that kind of spirit and, and it's still here today.
- [60:32]
Michael Malice
One of the things I love about your work and I'm just, it's just clicking in my head now that you're the guy talking to someone and you're like, you're living. You're standing inside this amazing mansion and you insist on staring into the toilet. Just lift your head and turn around. And so many people have that mindset where they just want to stare. Like, look at this. It's filthy and it's all full of foods. Like, turn around just, just a little bit and you'll see there's so much more that perspective. And it's so easy, I think, for young people especially, to be fixed. Especially grew up during COVID Imagine that was your high school years, Arthur. Like, what a mess you'd be to not realize this. There's more than what you're perceiving in a negative way. The world's a very big place and America is still the land of opportunity.
- [61:20]
Arthur Herman
It really is. And you know what? In many ways, I wish our friend, our European friends could do the same thing. Oh yeah, because they really are sort of have. And they've been taught to really focus on the toilet aspects, you know, about the racism, imperialism, the classism, et cetera, et cetera, everything. And we're destroying the planet, you know, through. Through fossil fuels, etc. Etc. Etc. To. To. To take your. Your beautiful. Your beautiful metaphor. Look around you and see everything that has been built by your predecessors, right, in your countries and what they have done and what they have given you. If you would just stand up and grab it and use it for. For. For. For a beneficial effect to change your life, change the lives of people around you. That, that would be, I think, an important message for this book to go across the. Across the Atlantic to our European friends.
- [62:15]
Michael Malice
Have you ever seen the documentary Empire of Sand?
- [62:19]
Arthur Herman
No, I haven't.
- [62:20]
Michael Malice
I want to make sure I get the title right. So basically the premise is. Let me just double check this, because it's become a meme as well. There is a Chinese company doing business. Let me get this right one second, Arthur. Because it's Empire of just. Excuse me. Yeah, so there's a Chinese company doing business in the Congo, right? And the Chinese guy is trying to get the. The gravel and the roads, and it's just every step of the way, it's a complete nightmare, right? And he sits down with the Congolese guy and he goes, the Belgians left you infrastructure and buildings, and you've done nothing to maintain it. And there's just one clip of his that's become a meme where he just goes. It's also tiresome. Like at a certain point, like you, you. Then the Europeans especially, you've been given this legacy. You can, you know, Stare at that toilet all you want, but at the end of the day, that's not going to help anybody. And it's really. I had this tweet, which I'm very proud of, that reminded there's two kinds of countries, America and. And they are choosing this kind of stagnation. And I think it's the founders of that, that kind of mindset who have the courage to tell people we can do better. And it's going to be scary because you're gonna have to get off that horse so you know where you're going. But I promise you, that car is going to be better than that horse, even though it doesn't have a head.
- [63:48]
Arthur Herman
Even though it is. You know, we started a discussion about talking about how the Scots invented the modern world. And I have to finish with this story when I was doing a tour in Scotland, when the book came out, big success here and so on, and I was speaking in an event, it was a big gala event in, in Edinburgh. And they had a band, they had a band there. And then, you know, the whole thing, celebration about what's going to happen with Scotland. Because the book came out right after devolution. Scots had, for the first time in 200 years, been given back some powers of self government from London to them getting their parliament back and so on. And so I was talking about the Scottish Enlightenment and about the ways in which Scots had made this enormous contributions to Britain, but also to the world that came with what we were just talking about. And during question time, one of the young men in the band actually raised his hand. He had a question for me and I said, what's the question? He said, you know, you've talked about how great Scotland is, has been in the past and everything that's happened here. And he said, but, you know, look where we are now. Look what, you know, what a crappy existence we have here in Scotland where everything is falling apart. We've got, you know, welfare state and poverty, etc. Etc. What's going to be to fix it? And I said, that's up to you, isn't it? Yeah, you're the one who's going to have to step forward with this. And after the question time, Michael, we were all done in the shaking hands and signing copies of the book. The young guy came up to me and he said, no one's ever told me that before.
- [65:30]
Michael Malice
Oh, wow.
- [65:31]
Arthur Herman
No one's ever told me that. This was really up to me. And he was like, you can sort of see the light sort of shining in his head, like, oh my God, this is a whole different whole way of seeing my life and my relationship with, with Scotland and with my fellow human beings in ways that he had not been confronted with. And I don't know what happened. That was 20 some years ago. I don't know what's happened to him, what he's been doing, what's happened to him since. But those are moments. And to be able to trigger moments like that is one of the things that I've always wanted my books to do. Whether it was the Scots book or whether it was the Cave and Light book, the British Navy book, for example, the Viking Heart book, and now the Founders fire is to trigger that kind of responsiveness. I didn't know that. Or I can see myself in a different. In a different light, in a different mirror than the one I've been accustomed to. That for me is that for me is the big success of being a scholar, being a historian, writing books like this.
- [66:35]
Michael Malice
I can answer that. Young man's name was Nicola Sturgeon, Nicholas Sturgeon. She was the head of the SNP and she got recently driven from office. That was the joke. Okay, sorry. A little Scottish humor for you.
- [66:49]
Arthur Herman
It's a rather grim. You don't make a lot of jokes about SNP these days. That's really funny.
- [66:56]
Michael Malice
Arthur, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?
- [67:01]
Arthur Herman
Gosh. My favorite part of the interview, I have to say, in addition to listening to my self discourse and my book, which is always great fun and so on, was what our discussion about Garrison and Brown and the ways in which the abolitionist movement had brought to America choices, important choices. And that it is, I think in as historian looking at it historically as Americans, to understand how difficult those choices really were in the ways in which they were posed, both by William Lloyd Garrison and John Brown on one side, but then also by Abraham Lincoln when he decided the shot at Fort Sumter means we're in this, we're all in and that it's not just a question any longer about saving the Union, but it is about ending an institution which has been. Which has been the. The sin of American, of America since its founding. And it's our opportunity now to get rid of it and to eradicate it once and for all. That those choices, which in retrospect seem very simple and straightforward at the time, very tough, are very difficult, even existential for the people who are involved with it. I really enjoyed. Enjoy that discussion and. And also maybe learning the truth about Joy Reid's book on you expose my Wisconsin boy naivete. Oh, if your book. If your name is on the book, you must have written it.
- [68:38]
Michael Malice
You are welcome.
- [68:51]
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Michael Malice
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Michael Malice
Huzzah.
- [69:17]
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