Michael Malice (2:42)

Yeah.

Jesse Kelly (2:42)

And I didn't want to write another book. I kind of thought I wanted another chapter. But then I started putting some thoughts on paper, and it got a little bit bigger than that. It's only 93 pages, this little red book. It's just a short little thing. I wanted something short and easily consumable with my thoughts on Democrats and Republicans and food and all kinds of other things. And I wanted it short and easy, and I didn't want to sell it. I just kind of wanted to send it out to people, which I know, Michael, you're going to yell at me about. I know that's a hard thing for you people, but I just wanted to send it out for free. And so I just decided to put it up on. We'll just email it to you. That's not a scam. It's not a gimmick. I think, like, 20,000 people have already gotten it. You just put in your email address. We'll just email it to you for free. It was. I think it'll make you laugh and hopefully make you think a little bit.

Michael Malice (3:29)

I'm gonna yell at you because as a troll, a fellow troll, you blew a big opportunity because you're 6 7, and you should have called it Jesse Kelly's Big red book. It's 93 pages. Dang it.

Jesse Kelly (3:44)

Well, you know what? It is free. I guess I could just go change whatever I want now. What are you gonna do? Ask for your money back? I can do whatever I want.

Michael Malice (3:51)

If the title's a lie, that makes perfect sense, because everything the communists say is a lie. Huh? It is.

Jesse Kelly (3:57)

I. I say this all the time. You've been talking about this for years. They just. It's. It's almost odd. I'm at the point, maybe I'm old and jaded enough that I find it more fascinating than aggravating how they'll. They'll just lie about everything all the time and with totally no shame.

Michael Malice (4:13)

No.

Jesse Kelly (4:13)

That they'll. They'll point to you at a body of water and say, that water is not wet, that water is not wet. And they'll do it to such. With such fervor that you'll find yourself questioning yourself, like, wait a minute, is it not wet? Is it me? And they're just the most shameless, demonic people in the history of the world. I find them to be fascinating, obviously evil and sick and wrong, but very Very fascinating people.

Michael Malice (4:37)

I think you and I find them fascinating because we can understand, like, the leaders, okay, who are like, promulgating these ideas to get an agenda across. But you and I have both. And you and I aren't binary thinkers in that we think everyone on the left or is dumb, everyone on the right is SM smart or vice versa, right? There's plenty of very smart people who you and I know personally, that if we sat them down and had a conversation about literally anything else, we would listen to their opinion and respect their thought process and be like, okay, this is a logical. I may not disagree, but I can certainly follow the train of thought. But when it comes to certain issues, you're like, what is happening in your mind? Is there a switch in your head? Or are. It's. It's the trans one's a big, A very obvious issue. Because everyone understands, right, that if you give a male testosterone, it's going to have consequences to his body. Some of them are negative. This is why steroids are testosterone. They're banned for sports, they're dangerous, so on and so forth. We could argue about whether dangers are blown. It's a thing. But the claim that if you give a biological female testosterone, it's all upside, right? I don't understand what is going on inside the mind of a person who says this and knows better. I don't mean the activists. I mean just the person who's just a lefty, who's just promulgating lefty talking points. What happens in your mind? I don't know.

Jesse Kelly (6:07)

I had a fascinating conversation with someone one time. He'd lived in China for a very long time. And we all know the term brainwashing, right? And everyone remembers cartoons or old movies where they strap you to a chair and make you watch something and eventually you start repeating stupid things. But, but brainwashing is actually. That's a Chinese term. It's a term that's based off of a Chinese term. And the washing of the brain is, I think, exactly how they put it. And this goes back to communist thought of what you essentially do is you condition somebody, oftentimes you hurt them, maybe physically, maybe mentally, to such a degree that they will say anything you tell them to say. And you don't even have to force them after you get them broken enough to a point. And it doesn't even have to be about the subject you brainwash them on. You know, I mean, in an extreme example, I bring you into a room and I, I strap you down to a chair and I. And I whip you and I burn you and I waterboard you for days and days and days on end. There will be a time at some point in time where your mind will break and it'll. You'll just say, jesse, I'll say whatever you want me to say. You want me to say water isn't wet. You want me to say I can chop your penis off and you become a woman. Just say whatever you want. I will have such dominion over you and you'll be so broken. You are brainwashed. That is the essence of brainwashing. That was the entire purpose of it. And when you understand it like that, then you can understand why, like you said, someone with, with a college degree who, who's maybe two parents, has lived a normal life, I mean, we're not talking. A 12 year old will look you right in the eye. You, oh, that 15 year old girl, let's chop her breasts off and inject some things with her. Then it'll be a man. That woman, that man has been so brainwashed, so beaten down by so many lies from so many places just because they haven't been strapped into a Chinese torture chamber. We don't consider them brainwashed. But they are. That person would say anything in the world. The people with Ukraine in their bios a few years ago, if you told them if the, if the system, you call it the cathedral, I believe, which I love. If the system, the cathedral, whatever you call it, if the cathedral told them tomorrow that Ukraine was the enemy, they would delete those Ukrainian flags and put Russian flags up tomorrow and none of them would feel bad about it at all. That's what they were told. I was told to say that I got my new programming and for anybody normal, you don't have to be some hardcore right winger. For anybody just normal, you look at these people and you think, what? How is it humanly possible? But if you're trying to understand them logically, you're going to be lost until you understand they really truly are brainwashed.

Michael Malice (8:41)

You're not really, truly brainwashed because you're yada yada ing the most important part. Because I, I would say to you, and I think you would agree, there is a massive difference between someone who's been locked in a room and beaten and traumatized, you know, Clockwork Orange style, and someone who's had no, you know, real consequences or whatever. The other thing is someone who's been. Hold on, let me finish. Someone who's been tortured and so on and so forth, they're going to have other Cognitive issues. It's not going to be localized just to like, okay, now I, Chairman Mao, they're going to be a mess. You know, anyone who's been through trauma, understand, or through torture, you know, you don't come back whole. I had a, one of the early episodes of the show, I forget the author's name. He's from overseas. He wrote a book about torture and that you can't get information out of torture because people's memories actually start to change because. And they just degenerate. You know, it's. The mind is not, is kind of quite delicate point being there. I think there's a big fundamental difference and I think you're kind of handwaving away between what happens to someone in a totalitarian country and someone who went to Yale who, who is sitting down with me and trying to have a conversation. Mao's not looking over their shoulder to the same extent here that he is over there.

Jesse Kelly (9:59)

I, I disagree and let me explain why. I know what you're saying. To compare, you know, somebody that went through Mao's knee breaking to someone who went to Yale is insane. And I understand how that would look insane. But let me explain. If, if, if you, an American, you live in first world America, a stressful day for you, and I'm putting words in your mouth here, but a stressful day for you might understandably be you got caught in traffic, you got a flat tire, you got laid off from your job. God forbid, you got. That's a really bad day. Maybe that's the kind of day that has you reaching for a bottle of vodka at the end of the night. Because, man, by the time you get home, the you were stressed and you were freaking cashed, right? But a stressful day for somebody, for a Christian in a rural village in Sudan might be having your mother raped in front of you and then your hands chopped off. Are those two totally separate things that shouldn't be compared? Of course they are. But the mind and the chemicals in the mind will react to those in the same way because you've been conditioned to different stresses that your flat tire and your layoff may actually be for someone who's been conditioned in a different culture with different threats and different things like that, in your mind, it may be equal. And my point in all this is you can argue the yuppie idiot mentally ill woman who went to Yale, she doesn't have these same fears as someone who might have their hands broken. And I would disagree. Women especially, that's why the commies love the Love young women. So much social acceptance for them, or the lack thereof has a degree of importance that most people cannot possibly comprehend. And that's why universities focus almost exclusively on young women. They break them. They break their souls. They take their motherly instinct. They make them the mothers of communism. And the reason they're so successful at that is the very thought of being a social outcast is in her mind chemically equal to getting your knees broken.

Michael Malice (11:51)

This is why we disagree. They're not breaking them. There's no resistance. They are running in open arms into the fire. There's no like, oh, this is wrong. This is crazy. This is like baby birds with their mouth open, vomit in my mouth and fill my stomach. That's what I'm saying is the big significant difference. By the way, do you know who the most famous American person who was brainwashed was? Who? Do you don't know this? You should. All. You of all people should know that. I don't know. Sorry. Not you of all people. Do you know George Romney? Did you know about this? No. I get to tell you about this.

Jesse Kelly (12:24)

Oh, please. Oh, give it to me and the audience.

Michael Malice (12:27)

Mitt Romney's dad, George Romney, who was a major figure in the so called Rockefeller Republican wing of the Republican Party, meaning wealthy, socially extremely liberal people. Something which does not really exist today in the GOP, for better or for worse in 1967. So he had been toying with the idea. I think he even tried to stop Goldwater in 64 from getting the nomination. He was unsuccessful. He was governor of Michigan. He was running for 68. And on August 31, 1967, he said, quote, when I came back from Vietnam, he was not a soldier, he was taking a tour. I just had the greatest brainwashing anyone can get. And since returning from Vietnam, I've got into the history of Vietnam all the way back into World War II. As a result, I've changed my mind. I no longer believe it was necessary for us to get involved in South Vietnam to stop communist aggression. He was using brainwashing in a positive sense. He was saying, they cleaned my brain. But the quote, I went to south to Vietnam and they brainwashed me. For any politician to say these words, it destroyed his political career. Thank God.

Jesse Kelly (13:38)

Yeah, well, boy, what a shock, by the way, that a Romney would just go visit but wouldn't actually participate in the war. I'm sure he promptly got back and voted for other people's sons to go die in wars. That seems to be the Mitt Romney way. They have 8,000 children. None of them seem to be able to locate the military recruitment office. But man alive, are they anxious for you to go die in Iraq. It's the Romney. I mean, we could almost just make it a noun at this point.

Michael Malice (14:04)

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Michael Malice (17:08)

Let's get back to the show. You know, this is all something I find funny that I and you and I both share. I despise this doom and gloom black pill. Everything's hopeless. There's no victories on the right kind of situation on social media. Liz Cheney's a pariah. Mitt Romney got driven out of office because of Internet bullying. This is not a minor deal. These were very important people in the gop. Liz Cheney is what, number three or four in the House Republican Conference? She represented a major aspect of Republican thinking for, I mean, at least over half a century. And now no one will take their calls. I don't think that's a minor thing. But the thing is the New York Times isn't going to celebrate and the righteous insist on having this victim mentality.

Jesse Kelly (17:58)

Yeah, there's a lot to that. And I actually got an email similar to that last week. I think it was where some guy was. He was super black pilled. And I understand that because I have my days as well where I'm sitting there just staring at my coffee ready to cry, right? But he was super black pilled. Nothing ever changes. And he was specifically citing the leadership of the gop. And in fact, I gave him an answer almost identical to the one you just gave. The problem is people, especially people who know history or read anything in history or listen to Michael Malice talk about history. History gets condensed, right? Because we're not there. So you know, Even World War II was like five minutes. You know, it's Pearl harbor and the Holocaust and the atom bombs and it's done. That was years. History takes a long Time. The leadership of the Republican Party. Well, the leadership's never gonna change. It's been changing. Donald Trump was the pariah 10 years ago. Everybody who was anybody in the GOP came out and just crucified. The guy has no chance to crass. Blah, blah, blah. You can love or hate Donald Trump. He's been the leading GOP er for 10 years now. Changing a party takes time. Election cycle after election cycle of primaries and you'll fail in primaries and you'll fail and you have to force them and browbeat them into retirement. And you have people like Mitch McConnell who clearly intends to die or just sit there and fry out in office. Maybe they'll just freeze his body and let him sit at his desk at this point in time. He would speak as eloquently then as he does now. It's endless. But it does happen. It just takes time. We want it to happen now though, because people who are hyper informed, basically everybody listening and watching to this, people who are hyperinformed, they know it needs to be done and they don't. They don't need 10 years, they don't need 20 years. No, no, we need to do this now. And this has to be done now. And that has to be done now. And you freaking morons who are in Congress should do it now. And you should fire and you should be fired and you should leave. We know it needs to be done now.

Michael Malice (19:52)

But that's not.

Jesse Kelly (19:52)

Oh crap. That's not the way it works in life. Ever.

Michael Malice (19:56)

Ever.

Jesse Kelly (19:56)

That's not the way it works. Things take time.

Michael Malice (19:59)

The other thing that really drives me crazy, and you were talking earlier about leftists and having their delusions. There is no remotely close to a governing Republican majority in the House, let alone anything that can be described as conservative. They have what, a 2:1 seat majority on paper? Everyone, I think literally even whether you're for Romney or whether you're far right in the Republican Party would agree that some people in the house are RINOs, you know, a term I don't really like because I think the rhinos are the real Republicans, not the Republican you have in your imagination. So how, how do you expect to have any kind of strong legislation to pass that House if you don't have the numbers? And it's just like, well, it's just, just. They just start babbling nonsense. It's like there's only so much. I'm not a Mike Johnson fan, but what do you want him to do?

Jesse Kelly (20:54)

Yeah, no, I think Mike Johnson is weak and pathetic and I'LL never, ever, ever defend Mike Johnson. But I would ask anybody who's crying out for legislation. I mean, I even understand things like the SAVE act, which I want passed. Don't get me wrong. You should have to show ID to vote. But you're crying out for legislation. You're crying out for legislation you want Congress to pass. What exactly? What do you think that body could possibly pass that would make your life better, your country better? That would make anything better? That would be. I've used this example before. It would be like going to the Italian Mafia, the Gambino crime, crime family in New York City, and handing them $20 million and saying, I need you to build me a new school. We want a nice school for the kiddos. Can you build me a new school? Here's $20 million. What do you think they're gonna do with the $20 million? You think it's all gonna go for books and new desks for little Timmy, little Aiden, Jaden and Braden? They're gonna find ways to steal about 19,999,000 of those dollars you're begging for the House of Representatives and the United States Senate to pass a piece of legislation. Why? I don't want these crooks passing anything. The greatest days of my life are when the government shuts down and I never have to worry about these morons passing something. Even during Trump's first year. And when we've had to pass the big, beautiful bill, which I know that's Trump's way, and this little bill and that little bill, it takes five minutes of reading into it, and it's a freaking horror crime. You're reading, and you're like, we're still funding this, we're funding that, and we're funding that. What legislation do you want passed? I love gridlock. Gridlock's my favorite thing in the world.

Michael Malice (22:35)

Yeah. So I am of the opinion, one of the. I hate the idea, and I know you agree that any criticism of Trump means you have tds, but here's a big criticism of Trump, and I don't know that I. I always try to, like, steel man positions. Like, what would I do in that situation? I think one of his biggest weaknesses, and I don't know how he could have avoided this, he hasn't named, really a successor. Like, there isn't a team of MAGA people who could pick up where he Left off. There's J.D. vance. I don't think J.D. vance wears the MAGA shirt comfortably for several reasons. Tulsi is not MAGA in The sense that you can't rely on her to have the MAGA philosophy. RFK is not maga. These people are signed on with Trump, but they're not Trump figures. They don't have his worldview at all. They just are, you know, biting their tongue and working with them and what they agree with. But when push comes to shove, they don't have the same, you know, ideology as him. And I think when you have such a powerful figure and they go away as he is going to go away, obviously, to some extent as literally, in a literal sense, as president at the end this term. This is a big problem for a party after he's killed off, you know, 15, 16, you know, of their leaders in the past and driven the others from office into retirement.

Jesse Kelly (23:53)

Yeah. There's a story which I know, obviously you probably know about Alexander the Great. And Alexander the Great, he goes on, he wins all these battles, he conquers pretty much the known world. At the time, it wasn't the whole world, but he conquers basically everything he gets his hands on. And then he's dying in his bed, and they ask him, well, who are you going to leave this whole thing to? Because he had all these incredible generals, Ptolemy and all these guys. And again, we're getting a lot of this. No one was there to record it. Right. But according to the story, he says the strongest and, you know, he keels over, which of course, didn't happen in that exact moment, but that's the story. Hey, who gets your kingdom the strongest? And he keels over. Well, people love that story about Alexander the Great because he was strong and tough and wanted to fight in every battle, and he thought everyone else should just be strong and tough and fight in every single battle. And if you want his kingdom, then you should be the toughest. And it sounds really great. We love that part of the story. But it ended up in the most horrific freaking civil war that divided up into multiple kingdoms because no one could agree. And they were all killing each other and they were stealing his body, and there were assassinations and genocides, and it was a total disaster because Alexander the Great couldn't just take five seconds from killing people to write something down and say, I want that guy to take everything over. Donald Trump. I got this story told to me, actually, by Trump Jr. Himself. I really like Junior. He makes me laugh. And we were hanging out at some event one night after some event, and he told me he was young, I think he was in college, and he'd been out all night partying, you Know, things you do in college, drinking, whatever, having a good time. Well, Trump calls him. He got in, I think he said, at 2 or 3am that morning. You know, your eyes are done. Trump calls him like two hours later. He's passed out, as you can imagine, in bed. Trump calls him at like 5am and says, Don, where are you? Are you in the office? He says, no, Adam, it's Saturday morning. I've got home, but I'm not in the office. And Trump tells him, I know you're not in the office because I'm in the office. Get a shower and get in the office now. Donald Trump doesn't believe in handing things down, even to his own children. He just does not. Not Ivanka, not Trump Jr. Not Eric. He'll bring them into the fold and educate him. But Trump has never done that of your. He's never done that before. He was in politics. You're going to have the kingdom or you're going to have the kingdom. By all accounts, from what I can tell, he's a wonderful father by how his kids pointed out. So I'm not criticizing his ability to be a father, but I don't think that's what he does. Michael I think it would be unreasonable to think he's the type of guy who was going to name someone. I don't think he believes in that. I think he would give you the same answer. Alexander the Great would give the strongest good luck gu. I bet you that's what he said.

Michael Malice (26:19)

Yeah, I don't think you're wrong, but I think this is going to be a big thing because once you cut off the head, you're going to have these. He was, you know, the premise of my book then you write, which is even come more true, you know, seven years on, is that you have this coalition and the only thing this coalition really had in common was their hatred of progressivism. And once that's kind of taken away as a foil, a lot of these groups that, you know, signed on to the Trump train don't really have a lot in common culturally. They might despise each other. And without him being the glue holding it together, I think it's going to get really, really ugly, especially after the midterms.

Jesse Kelly (26:59)

Could you could. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the progressivism thing isn't going away. And universal hatred of one thing keeps coalitions together for a very long time. And as the left, as the communists continue to be more radical and more crazy, more evil and more radical and more crazy and and more evil that could hold the coalition together. But there's no question that coalitions, they come and they go, right? There are going to be parts when Trump is gone. If it is J.D. vance, and I assume it is, at least that's the way it looks right now. If it is J.D. vance, there are going to be parts of the coalition that fade away and that break away. There may be parts that get added to it. But this is always a problem when you have some central leadership figure in any political movement when they die or get term limited or move on. There's a period of time where people are going to have to figure things out and people are kind of floating in the wind. But I also think that's healthy. I don't know that the naming of a successor would even be successful, for lack of a much better way to put that. I think that that's the kind of thing that the right would recoil at and possibly get rejected pretty hard.

Michael Malice (28:08)

I don't even mean naming successor. I mean, like literally having 10 people who you could call, okay, these are Trump Republicans. And I don't think there's even 10 in Congress or governors that you could say, okay, this is a MAGA Republican. I think MAGA ism largely is a function of Trump and his idiosyncratic views and personalities. That's not a knock on him. But I mean, if we were talking a year ago, we would have said Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know what I mean? We would have said Nancy Mace. Nancy Mace. Or maybe not Nancy Mace, but I'm thinking of somebody else. She's. Her career is done. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is obviously not MAGA in the sense that Trump is maga. Like Kristi Noem, I don't think she's really got a long career ahead of her. They're starting to throw her under the bus in Washington, which maybe is probably testament to her actually being successful, depending on your interpretation. Like, who else would you call? Ted Cruz? He's not maga. Like, who would you call the MAGA people other than J.D.

Jesse Kelly (29:05)

yeah, I don't think that's unfair. But also, if we have to be honest here, that's also a function of, of, of Trump himself.

Michael Malice (29:13)

Oh, yeah.

Jesse Kelly (29:13)

And you, you mentioned his idiosyncrasies. The truth is that for all the things he does well, Donald Trump is absolutely putrid, maybe the worst I have ever seen in my entire life at picking personnel. And he does that. He's bad at that because he prioritizes things that are not necessarily the most important thing in the world. For Donald Trump, the most important thing in the world is loyalty, is and always has been loyalty. And as long as you are loyal to him, even if you are screwing up every single thing under the sun, he's going to be there. And even if you're doing a great job, if you utter one word against him, then he'll make you a mortal enemy. Look, you brought up Marjorie Taylor Greene. Thomas Massie, another great example. Again, if anybody's offended by anything I'm about to say, please keep in mind I really don't give a crap. You're welcome to email me. I don't care if you're offended at all. I don't care if you like or hate those people. That's not my point. My point is people love to rage against Massie. Now, understandable. I'm not here to cheerlead for Thomas Massie, however, Thomas Massie. This whole rift began when Thomas Massie was going to vote against Trump's big, beautiful bill. Now, there was all kinds of horrible stuff in that bill, a million reasons to vote against it. I get why Trump wanted it passed. That had his agenda in it. I get it. Massie was always going to vote against the bill like that. All right, again, this all could have been done. Massie could have voted against it. It was still going to pass. We could have moved on. It was Donald Trump who took that very, very public and then made it very, very personal, talking about his wife and things like that. And I know people love Trump and they love that stuff. However, once you do that, you've made an enemy. You've made a mortal enemy. And this is a mistake that people make well beyond Donald Trump. Today, nobody can simply pick up the phone and call someone and tell them they're a jerk or send a text message and say, hey, man, screw you. You and I could do that and we'd be fine. Privately. You do that to me one time, publicly, we'll never speak again, ever. You insult somebody publicly, you have now made an enemy for life. If Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene are now a thorn in Donald Trump's side, get mad at them all you want. Blame them all you want. Donald Trump bears some responsibility for that because he can't ever not make it public and personal. And when you pile up enemies in life like that, personal enemies, they weigh you down. It's fine to have enemies. You should have some enemies. But when you spend all day long stacking them up right and left, you are getting way down more and more. And now I mean, he can impotently rage on social media about primary Thomas Massie. It never had to get to this place. Now you're insulting his new wife and then the next day Thomas Massie's making you look bad about the Epstein files and the whole thing's ugly and it never had to be there. Pick up a phone and make a phone call, folks.

Michael Malice (31:53)

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Jesse Kelly (35:01)

No. Ideologues love to pretend that Trump is an ideologue.

Michael Malice (35:04)

Yes.

Jesse Kelly (35:06)

Trump's major, major fans make this mistake all the time. And that's why I try to tell people to stop worshiping these, these politicians. Donald Trump is a politician just like the rest of them. Use them like rental cars and as soon as you're done with them, drop them off like a rental car. The hardcore border people think Donald Trump is one of them. He is absolutely not. Pro life people think Donald Trump is one of them. He's absolutely not. Fiscal conservatives think Donald Trump is one of them.

Progressive Insurance Announcer (35:30)

He's not.

Jesse Kelly (35:30)

Donald Trump is still the same businessman he's always been. He always just wants to make a deal. And in Donald Trump's mind, you get a little bit and you get a little bit and we'll come together and we'll all make money and we'll all make a deal. That's how he's approached it at and all if progressives, if these communists really wanted to make their already fragile minds completely break, if they had the ability to do this, which they do not, they could sit down and think for a second, rewind 10 years and think about how far the communist revolution could have moved forward if they had just chosen to work with Donald Trump. He was in office for about five minutes, and he already loudly told them they could have amnesty if they wanted it. He would need some border wall things and stuff like that. But again, you get a little bit and you get a little bit. We'll do a deal. He would have done a deal with Democrats on virtually every communist revolutionary thing they ever wanted. They could have had 10 years of modest gains for their communist revolution, but instead, they're broken and demonic and they cannot help themselves. So everything had to be rage all the time. And now the communist revolution is actually in trouble because then they tried to kill him and then they tried to arrest him again. They just can't help themselves. They are what they are, and now here we are. And the people who come after Trump will be ideologues much more ideological than he is. He got the ball rolling. The ones that come after will be smarter and meaner in every way.

Michael Malice (36:50)

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm reminded. I'm sure people watching this remember when he had. He hosted Mamdani in the Oval Office before Mamdani was even sworn in. And he's, like, looking at him with Google eyes. And they asked Mamdani if he. If he thinks Trump's. They still. They're journalists. As Mamdani. He still thinks Trump's a fascist. Trump's like, almost like flirting with him. Go on, sweetheart. You could say it. And Mamdani says yes, to his credit, I suppose, but it was just this very, you know, bizarre. That's the. I'm positive Mamdani got some concessions out of Trump in that meeting. How can you not. To be fair, if you're elected mayor of New York City, this is the president. You have to work together on some level. New York, obviously is a big part of the economy and the culture, but. And it's also. But I don't know if you saw this. You know, I tell people all the time that a lot of times leftists are in a better position to put over conservative goals, like Clinton balancing the budget. He didn't want to. They dragged him to. But the fact of the matter is it ended up happening. Mamdani and Hokul are now trying to make it easier to build houses and. And build housing in New York, and knowing that supply is going to help the problem with demand. If I had guessed, if I. You'd asked me a year ago, that they'd Be saying this by February. I, I'm sure there's some catch. There's no question. But the fact that this is even how their conversations being framed, I think is a step that I did not see coming.

Jesse Kelly (38:14)

Yeah, they, they always. In the end, I mean, the ultimate, the ultimate goal. I shouldn't say the ultimate goal, the ultimate end. It's coming there no matter what. For a state or a country or wherever or even a company that chooses to go down, the communist route is it will fail. It simply will fail because it doesn't work. You enable the most despicable people in your society, you give them all the power in the world, and all they do is kill and loot and hurt people. And in the end, it fails. It fails. So New York is a great example of this. California is a great example of this. At some point in time, the Democrat Party got so far left that there were no more guardrails anymore. No more moderate. Even if you are, there probably are moderate Democrats still elected, but you can't voice that or you're going to get bounced out of a primary by the latest Che Guevara fan in your district in a heartbeat. So you have to pretend to be a communist like the rest of them, and they're all having a good time. You know, in California, you can't lose, you're a Democrat. New York, you can't lose, you're a Democrat. But it's going to fail because people are just going to leave. No one wants to stay there. No one wants to live under it. And that, it really is its ultimate failure. When you think about it. What's the longest communist regiment in the last hundred years? Well, in the 100 years of communism, was the Soviet Union. What was it? 80 years? No, it was about 70.

Michael Malice (39:28)

North Korea.

Jesse Kelly (39:30)

Oh, my gosh.

Michael Malice (39:32)

They did it right.

Jesse Kelly (39:33)

When are we saying North Korea started? It's still the same. 70, 80 years.

Michael Malice (39:37)

No, it's 45, 48, depending.

Jesse Kelly (39:41)

Yeah, so 70, 80 years.

Michael Malice (39:44)

Yes, they've had lots of them.

Jesse Kelly (39:46)

Yeah, man, that's amazing. They actually have. But I mean, that's my point. 70, 80 years. It just doesn't go on very long. Because they're not going anywhere, though, in New York. I mean, New York can't print money. The state of New York cannot print money. It's not like the Fed in the disastrous way we run things here. You can only lose so many millionaires and billionaires and run so many people out of your state and lose so many congressional districts. Eventually. You're a politician, you Got elected by handing out goodies from the taxpayer trough. And you look at the taxpayer trough and it's empty. There's nothing else there because you lost everybody. You can't just go to the Fred and start printing money. You have to do something because it fails. What did Gorbachev say? Really, the end, the final blow of the Soviet Union was Chernobyl. When the whole world figured out, oh my gosh, everything just is broken. Nothing works there.

Michael Malice (40:35)

Well, I think the problem is both parties have gotten together and they are printing the money. The national debt, every time, it's like a zombie movie. Every time I check what the national debt is, I'm like, I just looked at this five minutes ago and it was trillions smaller. It is insanely huge. I have made the point that there's a great deal of ruin in the nation and nations can hold more debt than people think. I think any debt is a problem and people like, oh, it's too much, it's going to collapse tomorrow. Barry Goldwater wrote a book about this in the 70s called the coming Breakpoint about how the national debt was too much. And here we are, 40 years later, we still haven't had economic and specifically collapse of the dollar. That said, every day we're getting closer and the rate at which this debt is piling up is insane. This would be a great opportunity. If you and I both know this and everyone listening to this, it's going to sound like a joke. It would be a great opportunity for Democrats to run on fiscal responsibility and say. Because they have that line about if you want to live like a Republican, vote like a Democrat and be like, look, while the Republicans are worried about ice, we're worried about putting, you know, food on the table and having responsible budget just like you have. They would never do it, but this would be a very. They would have, you know, 35 states in the general. But this is. I am getting very scared because there's like zero concern in Washington about the insane amount of money that's being printed.

Jesse Kelly (42:16)

Yeah, this is. I mean, we talked about not Blackpooling earlier, but I'm about to. This is one of those things that I honestly. This is horrible. I try not to think about it. You look at the debt, I try not to look. You argue that we haven't seen monetary collapse. Really? Because 25% in about the last five years, that sounds like monetary collapse to me.

Michael Malice (42:35)

It's not collapse, it's a problem.

Jesse Kelly (42:38)

I would argue that 25% in five years is collapsing. I mean, maybe it hasn't collapsed. We're not hollowing around wheelbarrows full of hundreds to start fires like Weimar Germany, but it's collapsing 25% in five years. And the truth is that as much as I hate to say it, the American public deserves it, because the American public does not want spending cuts. They simply do not. I have. I've screamed and yelled at every Republican I ever have on my show, which is why I try not to have them on, because I just get upset and I ask them about spending cuts this and spending cut that, and the honest ones, the really, really solid people, honest ones. Guys like Ron Johnson in Wisconsin, one of the very few, just really decent senators. He'll just tell me, said Jesse, there's no appetite for. The public doesn't want it. You can't run on spending cuts. The public doesn't want spending cuts. The public wants government goodies. Nobody wants to be the adult in the room that turns on the lights at the party and say, turn off the music, put the beer cups down, you grab a mop, you grab some cleaning supplies. The party is over and it's cleanup time. Nobody wants to be that guy. Everyone wants to turn the music up louder and wheel in another keg, but the party's gonna stop at some point in time, and nobody wants to be the adult in the room. If you're a politician in the United States of America and you want to guarantee 100%, no matter what your district or state looks like, Republican or Democrat, if you want to guarantee you will lose your next election, you will say something honest at all about Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, even. Just saying that. Right now, my email inbox is filling up with angry people who don't know how to read a pie chart and can't see what's happening in the United States of America, you can't cut anything because the people don't want to cut. We can blame these losers and dorks we send to Congress all day long, but the truth is the public doesn't want it and we get the government we deserve.

Michael Malice (44:23)

I'm about to give you power of attorney because I agree with every single word you just said. I was on a podcast talking about Canadian politics, and I made the point. I said, canadians, this isn't like something put over on you guys. Canadians don't want freedom. And the reason, you know, they don't want freedom is because none of the politicians in Canada are campaigning on it. And they could lie. They have no problem saying I'm for freedom and then get into Office, you do whatever hell you want. But if this was a winning issue, they would absolutely be campaigning on it. And there's zero appetite for that in Canada. And to your point, it's exactly correct. The best you might have the best is someone framing themselves as a fiscal conservative and that they identify as a fiscal conservative. But then they're going to be the guy in the ladies locker room once they enter Washington at a certain point, they have no choice because that party which is in charge of getting through the primary and getting you elected, that party has a vested interest in keeping that money printer running, in keeping the goodies coming. You're gonna hurt. The people who you hurt have lobbyists who are going to make damn sure that you're not cutting a single penny of what, what's including the military. Every single budget has someone who in part of the budget or someone they're defending it. And I don't know where this stops, but it's certainly not going to be a good place. And I'd rather stop the party while we're all not having alcohol poisoning than when the cops show up with their batons. But I don't see how this car is going to get turned around because

Jesse Kelly (45:55)

it's not going to get turned around. Look, we're 250, Michael. This is the 250th year of our country. And that's about the moment where large powerful empires start to kind of fray a bit. It's not going to happen tomorrow. I'm not trying to black pill everyone. Don't worry. You don't need to go live in your business bunker, you and your children and lord willing, your grandchildren are going to have a pretty fine life here in America. But this is about that. Time and empires have always struggled with it. How do we stop it? How do we stop it? You get to a point where you really can't stop it. No one wants to be that adult to stop it. No one wants to hold things back. You really need a complete jerk. But even then, if you had a jerk who didn't maybe say, care about getting reelected, even then they probably kill him. If you tried to do it with that much money invested. I mean, you mentioned the military alone. I mean, brought up Medicare and Social Security. Look at the Pentagon audits. Think about how many trillions of dollars have flowed through there right into some corrupt scumbags pockets, some defense contractors. And this has been going on for years and years and years and years and years. How many people do these guys have in their Rolodex who will kill people for money. How long do you think you're going to live? If you are genuinely trying to stop somebody from getting a $50 million bonus check the next year to buy a new house in yacht in Barbados, how long do you think you're going to be alive? Not very freaking long. Do I need to remind everybody? Donald Trump was shot in the head by a sniper. A lone gunman who assumed a rooftop148 meters from him in an elevated position. Anybody with who's played a video game knows that you would secure that rooftop, but somehow the United States Secret Service does was not.

Michael Malice (47:37)

Oh, I didn't realize you were coming out as gay. What the hell's a meter? Get the off my show. This is America. Meters out of here. The I thought I was talking to Jesse Kelly. Apparently someone's been brainwashed and you just slipped that you commies always slip. You use can't effing help yourselves.

Jesse Kelly (48:00)

I have to explain. I have to explain because all that was very fair. We used meters in the Marine Corps.

Michael Malice (48:08)

All that was very fair.

Jesse Kelly (48:11)

We used meters in the Marine Corps. So whenever I talk about shooting, I end up talking about meters. And I shouldn't do that. But it was always meters there. So I'm always doing meters. When I talk about shooting, I'm not a Europore, I swear. I use yards and inches and miles. Except when we're talking about shooting.

Michael Malice (48:32)

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Jesse Kelly (50:09)

37 trillion.

Michael Malice (50:11)

It's 38 trillion. And I remember the last time I looked, it was 20 where the last time it registered and I was just like, like I couldn't even wrap my head around that number. Knowing the gdp, knowing how much, and it's just like. And now obviously a nation can sustain an amount of debt over time. You have to inflate, blah, blah, blah. But this is not a, a joke. And especially it's not a joke because you have a cancer in the body and people are saying, let's just drink some more radiation juice.

Jesse Kelly (50:46)

I don't have anything to tell you, Michael. There's nobody. And you know what? Really, I'm preemptively mad about this. All the pain and suffering that's going to come when that bill comes due, right? When you can't pay to service the interest on the debt, which, that's what will come first. When you can't do that, then the world starts downgrading your credit rating, then interest rates are through the roof, and then you're going to see real, real major cuts. And then there'll be major, major pain. And it'll be, obviously, the poor will get eaten alive first in the middle class and whatnot. And I know all the pain that's going to come. And you know what's going to drive me crazy is every person from every party, every one of them, they're going to wash their hands of responsibility, whatever, Whoever's in Washington, D.C. at the time, they're all going to point fingers. It was the other guy. It was the other guy. It was the other guy. But I am old enough and cynical enough to watch Democrats spend as much as they possibly can when they're in. And then Republicans spend as much as they possibly can when they're in. And then Democrats spend as much as they possibly can when they're in. And of course, well, you know what, to the Democrats credit, they actually don't run on fiscal responsibility. They'll just flat out, they intend to loot the treasury and hand it out to the animals who make up the Democrat voting base. Republicans know they have to be a little bit more careful with it. So they'll talk about balancing the budget and things like that. And then they'll go past trillion dollar bill after trillion dollar bill. We need another stimulus package. And when the bill finally comes due and real people are genuinely suffering, nobody who voted for all these things is going to step up and say my bad, not a single one of them. They're all going to blame everybody else. And that is going to make me very angry.

Michael Malice (52:21)

The thing that really bothers me, one of the issues that bothers me, I think the most in politics is inflation because it screws at the poorest people the most. And like this is, you know, we did not have money when we moved to America. When I think when the Democrats and Bernie Sanders talk about the working poor and so on and working families, they're not wrong that this should be a concern, that more people should be like, you know what, if you are busting your ass 40 hours a week, you should be able to feed your kids and not have to worry about the electricity and maybe once a month go to like Red Lobster. Like, I don't think that that's that crazy to hope for in America. And when you have inflation, you know, the people with the least money to save, living hand to mouth, they're the first ones who are going to get hurt. And no one cares like Bernie when he cares about the working poor. It's more like, let's give them more programs. It's not like, you know, let's rein in the federal printer so that the dollars stay strong so that these people can save and kind of claw the way out of debt and maybe at some point, you know, have not, maybe not a down payment, but have a second bedroom or so on and so forth, they don't think in those terms. And that to me really sucks. You know, I did a couple of books with D.L. hughley and one of the points he made, which I don't agree with per se, he says like, this country hates poor people. I don't think this country hates poor people, but I don't think this country really cares about poor people. And if you bring it up in right of center circles, I think there's some eye rolling and like, oh, you sound like a leftist, or like, well, it's the leftist fault and blah, blah, so and so forth. But at the end of the day, I feel like there's much less sympathy with the working poor than there should be. From my perspective.

Jesse Kelly (54:01)

No, you're right. You're 100% right. There's a lot less sympathy because people haven't ever been that way. I mean, I got a frozen pizza for Christmas one year when I was a kid, so I know exactly what this life is like. I grew up in construction. That's what we did. I won't want to say poor, but certainly not doing great. So I know what that's like. My dad pawned a gun off to pay our bills one time. 45. How about that? We're doing fine now, by the way. Don't worry. But it's. Having lived that, and I personally have lived that. I've been out of work. I've been out of work. Yeah, it was an old 1911 of his.

Michael Malice (54:34)

What does a.45 refer to?

Jesse Kelly (54:38)

Oh, God. Geez, Michael.45.

Michael Malice (54:42)

What?

Jesse Kelly (54:44)

It's the caliber of the weapon. What are you talking about?

Michael Malice (54:45)

What's the number? 45. A measure of.

Jesse Kelly (54:49)

You know, I'm not doing this. All right? You know what? I'm not doing this. I'm not European, okay? I used it one time to talk about. Never mind, Never mind, Never mind.

Michael Malice (54:59)

Your dad taught you. What country in Europe? What shithole country did your dad come from?

Jesse Kelly (55:06)

Never mind, never mind. So, look, it does suck, but the poor will suffer first. They always do. This is. But I've been very critical recently, not of the Trump administration itself, their actions, because I think he's done a very good job in Trump 2.0. The messaging, I think, has been so, so bad. Not necessarily. Well, not just the Epstein stuff. The messaging has been terrible there. The messaging on the economy from Trump himself has been disastrous. And I understand exactly why he does it. Because it's Trump's way. Everything Trump's involved in or anyone he's trying to compliment is going to be the best thing ever.

Michael Malice (55:39)

Right?

Jesse Kelly (55:39)

He's the best guy ever. He's the strongest guy ever. It's the most beautiful woman ever. It's the best thing ever. It's this. It's his way. It's very endearing, by the way. I like it about him. But when he discusses the economy, he does the same thing. And he says, now it's the hottest country in the world. We're the best ever you should be saying we're the best ever. Why aren't you saying we're the best ever? This economy rocks. Why aren't you saying that 50% of consumer spending is now done by the top 10% of wage earners in the country? I understand that Apple is doing very, very well. And we have a brand new $500 billion deal with Apple. And that's super. I'm really excited to bring in another 20,000 people from India to work in the United States of America. However, my inbox is full. Stacks of them. Stacks and stacks of working people. Jesse. My credit cards are maxed out.

Michael Malice (56:20)

Jesse.

Jesse Kelly (56:21)

I don't feel like the economy's better. Jesse. My son just graduated college, only he's white and he can't find a job. He's been out of work for a year. He got a 4.0, can't find a job over and over and over again. And look, you can argue about this person's choices or that person's choices. All that stuff is very, very fair. But what you absolutely cannot do, and this is where Joe Biden screwed up. Donald Trump is doing the exact same thing Joe Biden did. Joe Biden routinely, when the economy was sucking, would get on the news and tell people it was great and you should stop complaining about it. It's great. You just don't know what you're talking about. You cannot tell people who are hurting that they're not hurting. You can buy them a beer. You can tell them you're sorry. You can tell them you'll fix it. You can tell them a variety of things. But the one thing you can never, ever, ever, ever, ever do to somebody who has hurt hurting is tell them that they're not or they shouldn't be. Oh, you're sorry you're sad your dog died? Oh, buck up. You shouldn't even be sad. That dog kind of smelled. That doesn't land. Well, don't tell people the economy is great when they've lost 25% of their earning power in the last five years because we shut down an economy for a chess cold and printed $7 trillion. The economy is not doing great. People can't fly to see their mother. They can't go out to Red Lobster as much as they would like. It's not doing great. It's not.

Michael Malice (57:30)

That is fascinating you just said that. Because that is one of the big things that, or the only big thing that the North Korean regime took a massive hit because under the great leader Kim Il Sung, they were getting food and they were exploiting Russia versus the Soviet Union to kind of get welfare after the Soviet Union fell apart and the dear leader Kim Jong Il took in, came in. You could say Kim Jong Il is the greatest person who's ever lived. You can say all these other countries suck by comparison. The point I've made over, I've said this over a decade now. You cannot tell a hungry family they have more food this year than they had last year. They will know. They will know they can't feed their kids. Kim Jong Il could, you know, be the greatest at multitasking. He might hate the Mona Lisa. He can shrink time. All this stuff might be well and true. I can't feed my kids and that there's nothing you can tell me that's going to tell me it's a good thing that I can't feed my kids. This is something even dogs understand, let alone highly intelligent people from East Asia. So same thing here. It's like, yep, it's ice is great. We gotta get rid of the immigrants. It's the immigrants fault that I. Whatever. You can blame whoever you want. At the end of the day, if I can't buy cereal and you're in charge, you are the problem.

Jesse Kelly (58:46)

Yep. And not only are you the problem, you can't tell them it's great.

Michael Malice (58:52)

Yeah.

Jesse Kelly (58:53)

You just can't do. And I does it. He's not going to change. Everything's the best ever. He doesn't even mean anything by it. But he really needs, and I understand that he has the Lutniks of the world and Jared Kushner's Donald Trump comes from high society real estate, New York City. He's not going to be surrounded by construction guys and I don't expect him to. It's not that, but he really needs. I actually argued this point yesterday on my radio show. I believe in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death that Donald Trump lost a connection to normal people that Charlie gave to him. Because I know they talked all the time. I've actually had people tell me that, that Charlie really told him. I mean, because he's bouncing around talking to young people, told him. No, this is what people care about. No, you need to understand this. Now Charlie's gone and now it's all Howard Lutnick and Jared Kushner. I think Donald Trump does care. I don't think he's a bad guy at all. I think we lost our tribune of the plebs, if you will. I think we lost our guy that could go in and tell Donald Trump, no, no, no. I know you're kind of braggadocious way and I love it, Mr. President, the country, everything is going great. But please, please, I'm begging you, please. And the next interview you do, don't tell people how great the economy is doing and don't tell people Americans don't have the talent so we have to bring in foreigners. Those two things, even if you believe them all the way, those two things are going to land like a turd in the punch bowl. Please stop saying it. But there's no one there to say it because you have Howard Lutnick on your left and Scott Bessette on your right and Jared Kushner sitting across the table. And they're all sitting there saying, you know what? The economy is great. We just signed a trillion dollar deal with Apple. What are you plebs whining about?

Michael Malice (60:29)

I think wouldn't you say that he gets it through Fox, But I don't know that Fox because he watches it obsessively, supposedly. I don't know. I have been keeping track of what they've been saying about the economy. Have they been acknowledging that there's issues or they've been kind of finger pointing, that it's just, you know, CNN propaganda?

Jesse Kelly (60:45)

Do you know, I couldn't tell you, Michael. I don't watch anything now that I do this for a living. I don't watch any, any, any conservative news. I don't listen to any conservative news. I, what I see on social media, I browse really quickly and try to scroll past mainly because I don't want to copy other people's thoughts. If people, I want to sit down and have my thoughts. So I don't want to do that accidentally. So I just got to try to come up with my own thing.

Michael Malice (61:08)

Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't know. I, I, I remember I was on Gutfeld, this was March or April, so this is like two or three months after he was inaugurated for the second term. And the monologue was, the Democrats are never going to win again because everything they stand for is terrible. And this is my first appearance in back for several years. I brought the story up before and I forget the first in my right they spoke and I'm like, guys, it's not even the end of the first quarter. This is the oldest political party on earth. Democrats, you're having your victory lap. You're crazy. Like the midterms. To say that it's a given is deranged. And I've been saying this now for a year. And thankfully, I think everyone right of center is like, oh, okay. Like, the idea that the Republicans, sorry, the midterms are going to be some red wave. I don't think literally anyone is saying this. The senate might be 50, 50, unless it's really crazy, and they pick off some seat that no one sees coming. And I don't know what the next two years are going to look like, but it's not going to be fun. We remember the last year of Trump's first term. They ran the table on him. It was Covid. It was awful. I'm not saying it's his fault. And if he had tried to hold back on Covid, they would have impeached him and probably put him in jail for mass murder. That's how much the frothing and the dementia, the craziness was in the air. But I'm very worried about, and I hope Clarence Thomas, why is he not stepping down? Like, what is he waiting for? Because if there's going to be another Ruth Bader Ginsburg situation, it's not going to look pretty. Just like her.

Jesse Kelly (62:39)

Yeah, no, I hope he's taking care of himself for sure if he's not going to step down. And I think you nailed this. Human beings, all human beings, when they're up in your personal life, you get a promotion, you're making money, you're making. You're dating a pretty girl. They always feel like it's going to. We all do. We feel like it's going to last forever. And the same thing when you're down and out, when you're out of work and you. And you're. You're a loser at that point in time in your life and you have nothing, of course you're never going to come back. This is it. This is over. But neither of those things are ever true. And political parties do this exact same thing. Remember James Carr, James Caldwell wrote that stupid book when Barack Obama won and said Democrats are going to be in power for 40 years, then Barack Obama lost virtually every single state legislature in the United States of America.

Michael Malice (63:20)

And then.

Jesse Kelly (63:20)

And then Barack Obama's term was up. And now we have the Donald Trump era. Every time a political party wins, it's going to last forever. The other party's dead and gone. We don't even have to try anymore. Praise Jesus, it's over. But that's not how life works at all. Especially because our, our republic, like really all republics are, is sadly governed by the normies out there who don't pay attention, and they don't know what's going on. They don't know the issues. They know the score of the super bowl last Sunday. They know what they're paying for bread at the grocery store. They vote based on personality or gas prices and things like that. And because they never reach to a higher plane. Who was it? Plato? Is it Plato, Michael, who said the cost of not paying attention to politics is you'll be ruled by idiots? And that's where we are.

Michael Malice (64:02)

Oh, let's find out who said that. I don't. I. I don't think it was Plato. That doesn't sound like him. That's you. But idiots and monsters, Jesse, when I google it, the first result is you. So some very wise man.

Jesse Kelly (64:19)

It was not me.

Michael Malice (64:20)

Holy crap.

Jesse Kelly (64:21)

It was not me. And by the way, I paraphrased it in my own uneducated white trash way. But someone said that a lot smarter than I am a very long time ago. You know, what was Plato or Socrates

Michael Malice (64:31)

or Aristotle's warning, if you don't vote, you will be governed by idiots. I don't think that's a quote. I'm sure it's a paraphrase of what he said, but. Okay, that's interesting. Folks, head over to malice.locals.com where Jesse took questions from the audience. If you want to join, it's just five bucks a month. You could send in questions to all of our guests. The book is Jesse's big red book. You could get it@jesse kelly.com. i look forward to reading it myself. Jesse, running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

Jesse Kelly (65:00)

All the times I spoke. Really. Just whenever you got done speaking and I got to speak. That's really what I like to focus on. That's what makes my day. Hearing me in my. In my earphone.

Michael Malice (65:11)

You are welcome.

James Altucher (65:24)

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Jesse Kelly (66:25)

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Michael Malice (67:23)

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