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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:21]
B
Folks. My new book, Not Sick of A History of President Trump's first 100 days is available now. Just head over to notsickofwinning.com to buy it on Amazon. Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome. For the next hour. We have a very, very, very, very, very long overdue guest, Owen Schroyer, Fellow Austinite host of War Room with Owen schroyer won the January 6th martyrs. Before we get started, Owen, this is only like a little bit of a joke. Thank you for your service. They put you away even though you did nothing wrong on January 6th. And it is my belief that thanks to people like you, I had Jacob Chansley on the show. It could have been me very easily or anyone listening to this show. When the state decides they want to make a victim of you, they will do so. And there's very little you could do about it. Just before we get to it, because we're going to, we have a lot talk about Jeffrey Epstein because I want to really get into the deep weeds with that, with you. Can you tell us briefly what that whole experience was like? Yeah.
- [01:48]
A
Let me just respond to what you said because it's, it actually is a very meaningful thing that you say. And I'm not trying to put myself on a pedestal, actually, quite the opposite. You know, I, I'm not a military guy. I come from a family that has military on both sides, but I'm not a military guy myself. But I look at the, the military men in my family and a lot of them served foreign tours. And so, you know, part of, part of my mindset when I was in there was if this is what I have to do to serve my country, then I'm lucky, you know, then I'm extremely lucky. If this is my duty to serve my country, standing up for free speech and being a political prisoner, or, you know, if we want to be dramatic, even a prisoner of war. But I do believe that's what it was. So I consider that a good thing. I hope that that's the worst it gets for us. I hope that that would be the worst Americans have to go through. If that's what it takes to save the country, I'd Gladly do it again if it meant saving the country. Who knows? I might have to. But so I just want to say, you know, I look at that as. I'm glad that that's the worst I had to go through compared to people that have served, compared to my family that have served. And so that's just kind of how I, how I wrap my head around it. When I was in there was, you know what? If this is my duty to serve the country, this is nothing compared to what, what my forefathers did serving in the military. Having said that, can I say one
- [03:12]
B
more thing and compare it to some of the other prisoners who had solitary who are looking at decades and decades, which I regard as torture and completely no justification whatsoever, unless someone's like some kind of mass murderer or threat to other prisoners. Is there justification for solitary?
- [03:28]
A
Well, so there's. Solitary is what ends up happening in the prison is what it's actually called is the special housing unit. It'll be referred to as the shoe. And so there's a couple of reasons why they have it. It's basically the prison in the prison. So you can still commit crimes in the prison, and so they have to punish you for that. So they take you out of and they'll throw you in the shoe. So there is, there is a, there is a purpose that it serves. And then also, depending on what prison you're at, there might be another reason for you to be in there. For your own protection.
- [04:00]
B
Sure.
- [04:00]
A
Say you're a gang dropout or, you know, you're a child molester or something, and you can't be in general. So, yeah, I do think that there, there is a purpose for it. But obviously I was, I was put in solitary for punishment. That's what it was. It came right from the doj. I was told that off the record conversations with people at the prison I was at. So, you know, I'll protect them. But, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a call from the top to put me in solitary.
- [04:24]
B
Oh, and there was no, I mean, I'm 99% sure I'm correct in this, that Ross Ulbricht was put in solitary. I know Jake Chansley was put in solitary. None of you three at any point were accused, even suggested of hitting an assault. A police officer, civilian breaking property, threatening people with death. There was. That wasn't. So in those cases, I could wrap my head around it. Like, you're saying, like, okay, someone's going to shank a co. Shum's a threat to fellow prisoners or has actually harmed them. But when there's not even the pretense that this is a violent person, it clearly becomes some kind of Soviet era type situation.
- [05:00]
A
Well, and every case you just mentioned, and there are more, were obviously political. It was political persecution and punishment.
- [05:07]
B
So let's talk a bit about this Jeffrey Epstein stuff.
- [05:10]
A
Do you want me to break the news for you? Because I know you've been live while this has all been going on. You know, Trump and his cabinet have been having a meeting. So can I break some news for you?
- [05:19]
B
Please do. We're going to air this tomorrow. But, like, please break it for me because I just briefly, before you go on, I've been following this a little bit, and the little bit I've been following, I feel like I'm in Plato's cave because none of the pieces add up and I've seen some theories and they don't seem coherent to me. But obviously this is your bread and butter, so please drop some knowledge on us.
- [05:38]
A
Well, first, let me, let me. I think that the pieces are starting to form a picture. Okay. But the picture is ugly. It's a picture we don't want to see. And it's, it's maybe something. We're kind of even like, oh, I can't. I'm not ready for that. But you were, you were joking because, you know, I had my Clown World shirt on today. I thought it was going to be retired. You know, I thought when Trump got into office, I could retire my Clown World shirt. But it looks like I got to bring it back now.
- [06:06]
B
Wait, hold on, before you go on. You remember the last year of his presidency. You remember him bending the need to Fauci?
- [06:12]
A
Probably more so than. Are you talking about Trump?
- [06:15]
B
Yes.
- [06:15]
A
Yeah.
- [06:16]
B
So, I mean, this idea people have that I hoped it would be better, and I thought the first hundred days were infinitely better, but the idea that it wouldn't be Clown World, I did not think that that was an option. We don't have the rockets yet.
- [06:28]
A
I guess we're permanently in Clown World, I suppose. You know, look, the Fauci stuff, I guess I would be a little more. I would leave a little bit more room for excuses there because, you know, you really don't know what's going on with this virus, and you're getting a lot of incoming, and so maybe you're kind of just saying, all right, just shut it all down, whatever, but we'll put that aside for now. So they have their cabinet meeting at the White House. Trump finishes speaking, and they kind of Go around, everybody has their little say, talking about amnesty, the Iran strikes, all this other stuff.
- [07:00]
B
This is right now?
- [07:01]
A
Yeah, this just happened. This just happened. Trump scolding the media. Kind of just your typical cabinet meeting. And then somebody speaks up, I don't know who it was. Somebody speaks up and asks President Trump about the Epstein case.
- [07:13]
B
Yeah.
- [07:14]
A
And he basically blows up on the reporter, scolds the entire media and says, stop talking about it. We're not talking about it anymore. It's done. Pitches it over to Pam Bondi, who then has a follow up question. Because she said she had the list on her desk. I mean, that was her own quote. So, follow up question about the list. Then she says, oh, no, I wasn't talking about a client list. I was talking about his own. His own porno stash. But we looked into it, there's nothing there. He wasn't an agent, he wasn't an asset. He was just a. He was just a lone pedophile pervert. That's. And shut up. That is. Now the latest we have from the White House is that Epstein was just a pervert with a porn stash. Wasn't an agent. Now shut up and quit talking about it.
- [07:51]
B
Okay, so Hong Kong Mike, here's my confusion, okay? If someone has something on all these people, why are they flipping them now instead of flipping them earlier? Why are you going to allow the mess to percolate when you could have sat them down? If you have that power, the election day, when you first start, like, if I, if you, If I tell you a secret, Owen, and you tweet about it, I'm not waiting five months, I'm giving you the call. I go, dude, you're blowing up my shit. And you're like, oh, fuck, let me rein it in this. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
- [08:23]
A
Well, and how can you have such a PR disaster? Right?
- [08:26]
B
Right.
- [08:27]
A
It's like if you've made the decision that you're going to try to sweep this under the rug or. And I don't even know if we want to get into the weeds of this, but let's just say the evidence has been destroyed, whether it was the first Trump administration, the Biden administration, whatever, and you've kind of been caught with your pants down now, and you're being asked to catch a fish that isn't in the pond, then okay, but you got to have better PR than this, right? So maybe, maybe they're underestimating how much the American people are, Are interested or care about this story. Perhaps, perhaps that's the, the mismeasurement that's been made here. But, you know, I think now I've seen it twice and you know, I would say President Trump for, for a nearly 80 year old man is obviously really, really with it. Great energy. It's really impressive actually, how much for an 80 year old man. But now I'm, I'm starting to maybe wonder, like, is the age starting to catch up with him now? Because I've seen two things happen in this administration that I've never seen from President Trump before, and that's him actually get flummoxed. He got flummoxed over the Elon Musk fallout. I think that's just observably true, no matter how you feel about it. And he was clearly flummoxed today when the Epstein file and the Epstein case was brought up. That's not the Trump that we're used to. That's not the stable, genius, steady hand, always in control Trump that we're used to. And so it looks like the Elon deal and now the Epstein deal, it looks like these are things that kind of throw him off of kilter a little bit. And you know, it's just something we've never seen from President Trump before. So again, it's like you're trying to wrap your mind around it. We're all trying to wrap our mind around it, but like you said, it doesn't make sense. How can we sit here and be told this is the official narrative, that Epstein had cameras in all of his rooms. He had a Zorro ranch in New Mexico that was apparently doing cloning and he was working with, with tech people like Bill Gates. He had his St. James island where all, everybody would fly out there and do God knows what.
- [10:23]
B
We have the flight logs and we
- [10:24]
A
have, and we have the high profile flight logs, everything else. And, and then Maxwell is riding in prison right now for all the sex trafficking and everything and all the victims. And then they just come out and say, oh no, Epstein was just a pervert pedophile and he had a giant porn stache. So, so what Epstein? So Maxwell, I'm supposed to believe that Maxwell was trafficking sex slaves just for Jeffrey Epstein to go into his dozens of rooms and film himself raping these girls for his own entertainment to watch later that he kept in saves? Yeah, that's the official narrative now and just move on.
- [10:58]
B
There's so much to unpack. Let me start. First of all, I can steel, man. The Elon thing, which is it is Trump's personality as we all seen that as soon as someone turns on him, he nukes them. And this is one of the first. I think this might be the first time when someone turned on him or had disagreement. Whoever's fault it is, where he's like, I'm going to hold my fire and I'm going to be, oh, Elon's a great guy. I respect him. So that could be where the flummoxing comes from. I could wrap my head around that. Theoretically, this Epstein stuff, okay, we know some of the victims, so we. And we know the victim. And what is I still the narrator? Not only is the narrative. My confusion here is Dan Bongino. Dan Bongino had a very successful career. Right. At any moment, he could go back to it. He didn't need this. He's only been in there for six months. He's not even the head of the FBI. He's number two. He very publicly had a lot of contempt for the deep state. If there's one premise I'm not going to change, my opinion on is that Dan Mangino is smart. Now, he could be an evil person, but I'm not going to pretend he's not smart. That interview that you and I saw, and a lot of people saw where him and Kash Patel looked like they were hostages, saying, there's nothing there. We looked it over. If someone came to you, Owen, gun to your head, and said, listen, you're going to go on TV and you're going to say that Alex Jones works for Putin and that you've been taking money from Qatar, blah, blah, blah, you would sell it. Because if it's at the point where you're getting flipped, where someone is. And you're not a dummy, you know, I have to pass this test, which is really going to be a high barrier, because people are going to be skeptical because I've been running my mouth for a long time, they didn't do that. That's what doesn't add up to me. How is it that they're going to say these things, but say them in an utterly persuasive way? If they're telling the truth, it doesn't make sense, and if they're lying, it doesn't make sense.
- [12:44]
A
Well, you know, when you're somebody like me that just fully immerses himself in. In these political stories and in the political world, you start to kind of hone your senses to pick up on. On certain things, and you just. And you just, you just hit, I think, which is a very Important thing. And it seems kind of trivial and, and most, you know, people would kind of just skip over it or not notice it, but absolutely, the body language here is extremely significant. It's extremely observable. It's no longer the. The confident, you know, chest held high, strong, staring you right down, Dan Bongino and Cash Patel that we saw for four years in the Biden administration talking about the deep state and the Epstein list and everything. Now it was like a deer in the headlights kind of kind of sunken in. It was like almost totally different people. Now, I'm not saying they're different people. You get the point. And then, and then, you know, maybe it's also worth mentioning, same thing has now happened with Caroline Levitt. And it actually started with, with Caroline. It actually started after the Iran strikes. And if people. For keeping people that are kind of keeping score at home. You know, I think the Iran strikes was the first time the Trump administration was kind of forced to engage in propaganda or just outright lying. And their, their excuse might be they're getting bad intelligence. And of course, they're basically going off intelligence from Israel. They're going 100% off Mossad intelligence. And so I don't know why. Boy, no reason to not believe that. They just said there was an Iranian drone ship off the east coast for six months. That was obviously a lie. So, you know, let's trust them. But nonetheless, that's where. That's whose intelligence they're going off of. That's who Ratcliffe is getting his intelligence from. And that's why Tulsi Gabbard, who's getting other independent intelligence sources, has been completely removed from the circle. I don't think she was at the Cabinet meeting today or yesterday. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive, progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match, limited by state law. Not available in all states. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match, limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [15:18]
B
So let's get back to the show. Wait, can we fill people in on this? So Tulsi went very, very slightly Rogue. She went on Twitter, she had this video about Hiroshima, and she was saying not that long ago, which is not the administration's position, that Iran is not on its way to nukes. Trump, by all accounts, brought her into the Oval Office or wherever it was, read her the riot act, and very quickly, she's like another hostage. She goes, oh, nope, they're weeks away. You know, this is going to happen. So the thing is, it was sloppy. It was, first of all, it was sloppy for her to kind of go off script because if there's one thing this administration solves for its loyalty, like, he really. That's the one, One of the things he learned from his first term. You're going to follow my lead. Now, that has costs, because if your lead's incorrect, you're taking them all off the cliff. But that is clearly how he's approaching the second term. And for one, I don't blame him, given how many people turned on him the first term, that made millions selling like Bolton made, which you, who couldn't see that coming, made millions selling books, you know, defaming him.
- [16:19]
A
Well, and again, it gets back to the body language situation. And if you do go back, because you brought it up earlier, you know, again, I, I would allow, I would allow some room for, for excuses during the Fauci takeover of the administration. And I think that, I think the Trump administration and Trump himself was acting in good faith at that time.
- [16:38]
B
Yes, at the beginning, yes.
- [16:39]
A
But, but I don't think, I don't think we're getting such good faith now after the Iran strikes. And I certainly am not feeling any good faith after the Epstein situation. And I think whatever, whatever is going down, this is the first time, in my eyes, this is the first time. And the Trump administration may be well aware of it, too. Maybe that's why Caroline Levitt quit wearing her crucifix around her nest. I don't know if you noticed that she took off her crucifix. Now she doesn't wear it anymore. So I don't think, why did she stop? Just this week. Just this week. And I'm sure she's like me. I, I wear a crucifix as well. I have it right here. It literally never comes off. It never comes off. I'm sure Caroline's the same way. A lot of people are like that. It just, it just never comes off. Right. So her taking it off, I don't think is insignificant. So what I think is happening is it's the first time this administration or any Trump administration, any member to the Trump administration have had to engage in propagandizing the American people, or if. If you want to just put it harshly, lie to the American people. They're not good at it. And I think that that's what it is. I don't think they're good at it. It's not what they're there to do. And so things are just kind of looking hairy and the body language is not good, and they know people know that they're lying, and so they don't know how to do it. And so it's just. It's really a bad look right now, unfortunately for the Trump.
- [17:54]
B
But I think Trump is good at it. And in this context, a lot of times he says things that are so over the top that it's almost like, you know, he's full of shit, but no one cares. I remember during the. I think it was the Kamala debate where he said, I overturned Roe v. Wade. Everyone hated. Everyone wanted overturned. No one thinks that everyone wanted overturned. It was a segment of the population, and they were happy to have it. Including many Democrats, not Democrats, leftists, who were like, this is not good law. Ruth Bader Ginsburg being among them. But that was one of those things. It's like, okay, like, whatever. Or like, oh, I've had the best approval ratings of any Republican ever. That's also not true. But, you know, this is just par for the course.
- [18:29]
A
But I think. I think that that's a little different, you know, Trump just being Trump versus now the administration telling us, oh, yeah, Iran was weeks away from a nuclear weapon, like they have been for 30 years, or, oh, yeah, there's no proof that Jeffrey Epstein was an agent.
- [18:45]
B
I think the Iran stuff is okay, I'm running propaganda for war, the war machine. I get that this feels very different. This feels personal. This feels. And it feels much sloppier because with the Iran stuff, there's a narrative there. Okay, it's a bullshit narrative, but it's a very clear narrative.
- [19:01]
A
And there's an appetite, too. And there's an appetite. People want to bomb Iran. They like the military, they hate Muslims, whatever. There's actually an appetite for that. Covering up the Epstein stuff. There is no appetite for that.
- [19:11]
B
And I don't listen, my last book, the White Pill, talked about the Soviet Union, the show trials, what they did to these people. And I'm sitting here racking my brain. What could they have possibly done to Dan Bongino that would make him react this way? And I can't think of Anything. Even if they said, even if they threatened his family, which they would certainly do, I would not put that past him for a second. Yeah, he would sell it. He would know to sell it. Like I, I, he, like, look, if I, I flipped you, I know how this sounds. I'm Mr. Owen Schroyer. I'm Mr. Tinfoil Hat Guys. I'm telling you, believe me, I'm putting my reputation in the line. And, and you'd have receipts. Where are the receipts?
- [19:50]
A
And he always talks about receipts like he's the receipts guy too. You know, maybe. And maybe that's what it is. And, and Dan Bongino, massively successful podcaster, arguably, when, when he walked away from his podcast to go serve as the FBI Deputy Director, he was probably top five in the podcast world, certainly in
- [20:10]
B
the conservative world, huge money.
- [20:12]
A
So, you know, he walked away from it. You know, maybe, maybe part of the discomfort he's feeling is knowing at this point, how do I go back to my audience? How do I go back to my podcast after this, right after I said everything I said, after I wrote all the books that I wrote, and then I become FBI Deputy Director and really don't deliver on much. And look, let's, you know, let's, let's be fair here. They have done a lot of arrests. They have busted a lot of child sex trafficking rings and they've, you know, deported a lot of criminals. They probably stopped a couple terrorists attacks. So we'll give them that credit. But that's their job. I mean, that, that's what you're supposed to be doing. That's, that's your job at the FBI. So, hey, we can, we can say, great work, you're doing your job well, but that doesn't take, that doesn't take away from the future that he's facing of going back to his audience with zero deep state arrests and all of a sudden don't talk about the Epstein client list. So I don't know, maybe that's the discomfort. And I'm sure, you know, I've, I've heard some things and I don't like, I don't like, you know, D.C. gossip, but I've heard there's been some fallout in his personal life because of this stuff as well. I'll leave it at that. I don't think that would surprise anybody.
- [21:24]
B
Sure.
- [21:24]
A
But I think maybe from a, you know, this is a, this is a successful man. He's got an ego. Right. He's going to have a big ego. You have to. When you're in media.
- [21:31]
B
You and I know at that point if he. I agree with literally everything you just said. That's his excuse to be like you. I'm walking. I'm breaking this case wide open. They try to sit me down. Unless. So there's two scenarios. Either they couldn't flip him or they could. If they did flip him. Look, if you don't go and got camera, we're taking your kids or your wife. Fine. I'm going to go in front of that camera. I'm going to sell it better than ever sold. If not, if there's anything else, I don't see how Dan doesn't walk and then says, guys, this is what, this is how deep it goes. They try to sit me down. I don't think Dan is scared for his life in the sense that like a swat, like he's a former cop, he's armed, he's got boys. Like, I think he wouldn't be scared of a swatting. Right. Or, you know, or someone taking him out. He would know. He'd be brave enough and patriotic enough to protect himself. That's what's not adding up here.
- [22:22]
A
Well, maybe, maybe he does walk away. I don't know. I guess that'll kind of be a time will tell thing. But right now he's carrying the water and really, for the most part, he's remained silent. He's put up some posts on social media that I think have people scratching their heads. But there's no doubt this, the fallout from the Epstein PR nightmare and the Epstein fumbling of the ball. I don't even think we can properly assess the damage yet. And I was talking about, you know, when there was kind of the MAGA coalition fracture over the Iran strikes. I explained it. That was like, that was an intersection of a bad car crash, but it wasn't fatal. Like, it was a bad car crash, but it wasn't like, you know, I don't think everything was totaled. So we were kind of reevaluating things. It's like, okay, we had a bad car crash here. Definitely some damage, but it looks like we can probably still carry on and be okay. This car crash scene of the, the Epstein debacle, I, I, this is permanent damage. This is, this is cars totaled. We're still assessing the scene. We're still, we're still counting bodies even. You know, this is, this is totally different. And really, you know, it's just embarrassing, I think, more than it is embarrassing. And maybe that's why there's such a visceral and angered response to all of this when the media is questioning it at the Trump administration because it's really just embarrassing and they can't hide from it. It's all, it's, it's on their plate.
- [23:47]
B
Now, hold on, I'm going to disagree slightly. A couple of things I do think they can hide from it because I think our corporate media is going to very quickly become very intellectually incurious because their fingerprints are all over this and many of them. One more thing I forgot to say. I don't think Dan's on the list. Right. So that'll be the one thing that would make sense if Dan had been on the list, but then he'd know he's on the list, so that wouldn't make sense either. I also don't think it's fatal because I think, and maybe I'm wrong, I think people have a very short memory and I think come four years from now, if they put up a zoron as the, as the nominee or Bernie type, very quickly, Mag is going to be like, all right, like, like either we ignore these pedophiles or actually put one in the White House, you know, or someone who's allied with them. So I think he's much more Teflon than people give him credit for. My big question mark, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
- [24:43]
A
J.D.
- [24:43]
B
vance, has he touched this? He's not going to be able to ignore it either.
- [24:48]
A
I have not seen anything from J.D. vance. When he was on the campaign podcast tour, he spoke about the Epstein list pretty, pretty liberally, I would say. He's, He' said that we needed to see it. You know, Vance has kind of served his role as, you know, kind of just the quiet supporter who's there when you need him. So he's not, I don't, I doubt he'll say anything that'll ruffle any feathers. We'll see. The only, the only thing about the, when it comes to the election, what I see happening and it seems to be increasing when it comes to Republican voters. And I think this is what Elon Musk is doing in creating the America Party is you're just, you're creating this voter apathy where people just aren't going to show up to vote. And I agree that, that, you know, conservatives and people that, that hate Communism are going to say, okay, we gotta, we gotta try to keep this guy out of office, but at the end of the day, there's gonna be a section of Americans on the right that just Say it doesn't even matter who I vote for because I'm getting, I'm getting the same thing no matter what. Now, maybe a campaign against communism could motivate them to get back to the polls. I think, I think all of this is a little too early to say.
- [25:52]
B
Sure.
- [25:53]
A
But I will also say this. What, what I hope comes from all of this, and I've been talking about this for a while now, what I hope comes from all of this is that this is like it's going to usher in a new generation of politics. It's going to usher in a younger generation of politics where you have on the left, your outright communist, your outright socialist. It'll be your Bernie Sanders types. He's handing his political capital to aoc, maybe Imam Donnie, but you know, Max Frost, Cesar, Greg, Cesar. You know, these types of people, these are outright communists. These are younger left wingers, 30s, 40s. So they're starting to come of age in the Democrat Party. And the geriatrics are starting to, you know, go the way of the dodo bird. Well, I'm hoping the same thing happens on the right, that we can counter this with a very pro, you know, nationalist. They want to call it isolationist. I don't think that's fair. I think that's a propaganda term that's been used for decades. But it's, it's nationalist.
- [26:49]
B
It's, you know, people doctrine.
- [26:51]
A
It's just, it's basically, hey, we're getting back to free market capitalism. We're getting back to independence. We're really doing evaluation of all these policies over the years, foreign policies, domestic policies, and what they've done to damage the country. We're going to reassess this, we're going to reset this. We're going to get back on, on actually building America up. Yeah, because that's, at the end of the day, I think that the left and the right both see the same thing, which is Americans are broke. They can't afford whatever it is, Insert, insert buzzword here. Healthcare, groceries.
- [27:20]
B
Right.
- [27:20]
A
They can't afford X, can't afford a home, whatever it is. So they see all of this. They see the decaying infrastructure and they just see billions of dollars going overseas. Right. I mean, we just sat here and struggled for this big, beautiful bill. The American people get held hostage just to get deportations and tax cuts. But then overnight we find out Israel continues to get hundreds of millions of dollars in military support. Nobody votes for that. Ukraine is about to get more military support from the Trump administration. There's no resistance there. There's no struggle there. But it's like, oh, America needs tax cuts. America needs to fund its military. America needs to fund border security. Well, now you're going to be held hostage for a 1600 page bill that's going to increase the deficit, increase the debt ceiling and crush us into the future. That's a big struggle session. But some foreign country needs more money, more weapons. No problem. No, no at all. So I think, I think the new right is. We think government is the problem, and the new left thinks government is the solution. But I think we both see the same issues and want the same thing, just different courses of getting there.
- [28:22]
B
I'm gonna recite to you a tweet ahead last week. I want to hear your thoughts, which is the only thing voters hate more than wasteful spending is cutting it. So I do agree with you. Right. If they really care that much about this government being too big, more people will be campaigning on it, and they're not. I don't think voters care. And I don't. I think they're being told they don't have to.
- [28:44]
A
Well, I mean, Doge was really popular. Doge was a popular thing in the campaign. So I think traditionally you would probably be right. But I think it's changing. I do think it's changing, and I think Doge kind of blew the lid off of that, where people can finally look at this stuff and say, hmm, what? Why are we spending money on shrimp? Running on treadmills? That's a real thing, by the way. Why, why are we spending money on, you know, trans plays in Argentina and all this other nonsense? So I think maybe, I think traditionally that, that, that would probably be a fair analysis. I think it might be changing, though. I do think it might be changing. Time will only tell what happens in the midterms and then the presidential election. But I really believe that I, I, I really believe that the presidential election in 2028 is going to be so different than any election we've seen in modern American history. I think the, I think both platforms are about to change dramatically.
- [29:36]
B
Yes.
- [29:36]
A
And I think that no more. And Trump kind of broke this door down, really, if we're being honest. But the whole political correctness and decorum and all of this stuff that you're used to on a presidential campaign, I think 2028, throw all that aside, and it's going to be about who makes the most outlandish statement, who has the most strong policy stance, and then, and then who's going to get up there and when the political wonk starts going back and forth, say pause. This is all bullshit. Here's what's really going on.
- [30:08]
B
Yeah. The reason AOC is AOC is because she's good at social media. Now, you and I are not particularly fans of her social media, but she knows how to use it a lot better than Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer do, that's for sure. Let's get back to the show. One question I really want to ask you, which is if Mamdani gets through New York, which I would not bet money on at all because I think the corporate Democrats are really good at taking out the Bernie wing when it suits their purpose. And Chuck Schumer, I would say, is the smartest politician in New York State in terms of savviness and understanding how to operate the machine. If he comes in, aoc, I think, is definitely going to primary him. Why wouldn't she? It's just going to improve her platform. More money. There's no downside for it. So he's going to try to nip that shit in the butt completely. I think the Democrats are in great shape for 2028, which is kind of heresy and right of center circles, because here's why. The midterms come. They get perfect AB testing. They run the Mamdani candidates in some districts, they run the Hillary corporate hacks in other districts, they see which ones work, which ones don't. And that's the kind of candidate you run in 2028. You've done the basic research nationwide. So I think that would suit them very, very well. And people who think the Democratic Party is dead, I was on Gutfeld not that long ago, and they're taking their victory lap. Oh, Democrats never going to win again. I'm like, this is the oldest political party on earth. These people will throw anyone under the bus. Their only goal is to seize and maintain power. And they're very, very good at it. So if you're going to bet against them in perpetuity, I think in my opinion, you're crazy.
- [31:32]
A
Well, you've, you know how the Democrat Party works. You've done your research. That's what they spend their money on. They spend their money on voter data and voter research to get those exact desired outcomes that you just, that you just explained. So I do anticipate you will see if not that exact same picture play out at least something similar in the midterms. And I would agree right now, I think the Democrats right now, plenty of time right now, I'd bet on the Democrats winning the house in 2026 and again, 2028, maybe still a little too far in the future to fully predict. But I will say, I think that this is where you were talking about your appearance on Gutfeld last week. I think this is where right wingers and Republicans are kind of just lost in the sauce right now. I think they're kind of just, just still kind of in this honeymoon phase and they don't realize what's really happened here. Yeah, the left would have been. We could have buried the left 100%. Maga could have totally buried the left. The MAGA coalition with Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. And everybody else and Elon Musk and this coalition that we just won the popular vote with behind Donald Trump could have been 10, 20 years of success with this coalition. We could have, I believe we could have ended the Democrat Party politically even. But then something happened and it was the strikes in Iran. And the Democrats had no political ground to stand on. They had nothing. And if you notice, even in the political debates that are happening now, the left is not even involved. They're not even at the table. It's right people. It's people on the right debating each other on foreign, which is unprecedented and other, which is great because that's where it needs to go. That's where the real debates are happening right now. But once they struck Iran, all of a sudden, the Democrats that had like, no, they had like, maybe this much ground to stand on politically for whoever, whoever still thinks boys need to compete against girls. So they had like this much ground to stand on politically. Once you struck Iran, you just gave them a whole new land. You just gave them all new turf to operate on. Now they can run against foreign conflicts, now they can run against war. So they had no, they had no ground to stand on. And then you struck Iran, and now they have ground to stand on. And so I think that the honeymoon phase and the Republicans are just kind of lost in the victory right now and not really looking at the playing field. I don't think they really understand what happened Once, once Trump struck Iran. You just gave the Democrats all the fuel that they needed to win in the midterms. And that's why at this point, I think that they will win in the midterms. I don't know why they wanted to do it. I don't know why you would give them that ground to stand on. Of course, the answer is obvious. It's because of our foreign policy being controlled by Israel. But Nonetheless, the results are going to be the same. The Democrats now can stand on this ground. War is very unpopular on both the left and the right. So right wingers that are anti war are going to sit out the midterms, and now left wingers that are anti war are going to go fervently to the voting ballots like they did with Barack Obama, and I think probably win the midterms.
- [34:26]
B
I, I'm going to disagree a little bit. First of all, I think this is, I hope, let's say I hope that this is going to blow over by the midterms, that we are foreign policy escalations. This is, this could be either the beginning of a very, very, very bad trajectory, or this could have been like killing Soleimani in 2021, where it was like a one off and then nothing happens. I could see it going either way. I very much hope it's the former and not the latter. I think they're going to run. And I had a poll, people thought I was crazy, that they're going to run on fiscal responsibility. And people like, yeah, okay. And the next day, Pritzker, governor of Illinois, was talking about how great his budget was and how everything's fiscally responsible. And people are like, they're going to lie, go, yeah, that's right. They don't have to mean it, but they can campaign. Is like, why there's that line, if you want to live like a Republican, vote for a Democrat. And that would be a great line for suburban moms who are the swing voters.
- [35:19]
A
Well, I'll tell you what, in, in that train of thought, then they've given the Democrats a path there, too, because they're not doing the Doge cuts. You know, you could have buried any political ground there by actually engaging in $500 billion of doge cuts. And you haven't done it so far. Now, strategically, you know, you're poignant to point out that it's still early. And so maybe this stuff can kind of get buried before the midterms. So, so that could be the case that so much stuff happens between now and the midterms, that maybe the Iran strikes and maybe not getting Doge cuts kind of just falls, falls down to the bottom of the ocean here politically. But these are two pathways. Now, I think we both see that these are two pathways that the Democrats can use to take the House in the midterms.
- [36:04]
B
Yes, yes. And right. So, and the other thing is with the MAGA coalition, people are all, like, happy that Trump got the popular vote, which was no minor accomplishment. It wasn't on the table, I think, for many people, even as early as October, and then it happened. That said, where are the coattails? The Republicans have their smallest, I think, majority of any party, like, ever. It's like two seats. And that really says a lot. A lot of Trump was against, as I said in Rogan, like a literal retard, and she still came within 3% of the vote or something like that. Now people are going to say, oh, well, those votes were stolen. Stolen or not, they still count toward the official tally. And the, the argument is, oh, he's going to deport all these illegals. They're not going to count. He's not deporting enough illegals that it's going to be like literally 2 million people.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah. And now they're talking about not deporting the illegals that work on farms and hotels and factories, which, you know, the truth is, I get it. And I have friends that run factories and they were sending me videos because they weren't going into fact. I mean, they were deporting people.
- [37:06]
B
It was happening.
- [37:07]
A
They were going into farms, they were going into factories, hotels. They were actually deporting these people. And so, yeah, Trump got the call from leaders in these industries and they said, our means of production have stopped. You know, you just deported a quarter of our, of our workforce here. Our means of production have stopped. We got to do something about this. So then they talked about amnesty, and then that was a massive no from the voters. So now they're talking about, okay, we're going to strategically do it. So, you know, part of me, it's like, you know, pragmatism is an important thing. So what are you going to do? You know, are you. If a farm has 25% of its workforce that is a illegal alien, and if you deport them and then the farm's means of production are, are suffering greatly, well, what are you going to do? I mean, it's a fair question. I don't even know. I'm not even, you know, I don't know what to say about that. It's tough. And you look at. Now you look at all these people, I don't know if you've seen it. Maybe you have. You have all these people running around bragging about how they get 3,000amonth of, of EBT cards and SNAP benefits. They go to Walmart, buy all this junk food. It's like a big trend on social media now. Well, they're not working. I don't know if you've other. You've also seen these liberals that are doing all these protests. They're like, oh, you shouldn't have messed with us. Don't, you know, we don't have jobs. So, you know, it kind of hits me. It's like this weird irony, but it's like, oh, it's like liberals really don't work. It's like, they really don't go work. Now, as a young man, I don't know, I don't think it's just me, but as a young man, it was like, I started working when I was like, 13, 14. Like, I wanted cat. I wanted to be independent as early as I could. You know, I didn't want to have to ask mom and dad for money. I was like, as soon as I could get, I could take any babysitting gigs. I was umping baseball, reffing, soccer. I mean, you name it. I was working like 45, 50 hours a week, summer of 8th grade. So, I don't know, it's, it's, it's a strange thing for me for Americans that don't want to work, but that's just a reality. So it's like, so what are you going to do? Are you going to. Are you going to deport all the people that are actually willing to work these jobs and then, you know, hope that somebody takes them costing means of production? Or are you going to find a way to keep them working here? Because maybe it's, maybe it's a necessity. I don't even know where to stand on that because it's obviously against the Trump policy. But it's also pragmatic to say, hey, a farmer calls up, somebody in the agriculture company calls up and says, you just deported my means of production.
- [39:33]
B
And here's the thing, this is a vulnerability for Trump that they're not deporting enough of these people. But Elon is to the left of him in this issue. If you had your choice between Trump and Elon, Trump is going to be the one more likely to deport these people than Elon. So the weaknesses that Trump has, Elon is not in the position to exploit them. With this American party, and also in terms of moderates, it's really hard to sell to people, whether you think it's the right thing or not, that, like, this person's been here since they were a kid. They have never committed a crime. They work, they pay their tax, they're raising a family. Get them out of here now. On social media, it's kind of fun where it's like someone married a lady, never got her citizenship, and after 20 years she's deported. Like, fuck around and find out, haha. But at a certain point, when you're seeing families rounded up and they're not really a threat to the community. For moderates and people who are apolitical, who are the swing voters, that does not sell well with them. They like the idea on paper, let's get rid of illegals, meaning some guy across the border, he's a drug dealer, he's on welfare or layabout. But in terms of like moms and dads and just who are just working, it's a much harder sell.
- [40:35]
A
Yeah, I think, yeah, this, it's going to be a tough one. I think though, what, what you can do to start to naturally solve the problem is you have to end the welfare. Right? I mean, that just has to be ended.
- [40:48]
B
The welfare, citizenship.
- [40:50]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, you end that, you end the welfare. And naturally, I think over time this, this problem will solve itself. Obviously, the Trump administration has secured the border, so there's no doubt about that. We're not, we're not dealing with an open border anymore. So that problem has been solved. And then, you know, I think the other thing to do is, and I was looking at some numbers that are actually pretty shocking. A lot of these foreign workers come here and then they send money back to their home country. I was looking at India specifically, and India was taking in 138 billion, I believe was the last fiscal year numbers, 138 billion of Indian workers who are working in a foreign country, sending money back to India. 32 billion of that was from the United States of America. So Indians working in America sent $32 billion to back to India. We're not taxing that money. If you started taxing that money, I mean, I would probably get real aggressive. I'd do like a 25% tax is
- [41:50]
B
what I would aggressive.
- [41:51]
A
But, well, okay, maybe, you know what I mean, I, I, hey, I'm the one that said 25. All right.
- [41:56]
B
But I'm saying the top marginal tax rate used to be like 91% or 98 or something crazy. So.
- [42:03]
A
Yeah, well, whatever number you want to land on, I think, I think it's part of the solution if it's, if these, if these foreigners can no longer come here and then send all the money back to their family in the foreign country without any taxes, you know, I, I think that that might perturb some of this as well. And even if it doesn't, even if they decide they still want to work here. We're making money off of that. So it's kind of like, it's kind of like a tariff really, in a way. It's like tariffing somebody a foreign workers work that, hey, if you're going to work here, okay, will take foreign workers. But if you're going to send your money back home, we're going to tax that, we're going to keep, we're going to keep some of that money here. And so you're kind of like tariffing foreign workers if they want to send money. So that benefits us, that brings more, more money in. And I think it will, it will stop foreign workers from, from coming here that think they can just send all of their money back home to their country. So I think with certain policies like that, you can have these issues take care of themselves. But yeah, there's no doubt. But that's why the right wing, we had to just crush the Democrat Party and it's so upsetting that now they have a breath of life. But that's, that's, that's like the split in the right wing where it's like, okay, foreign workers, do we have enough of them? Do we have too many of them? Musk says we need more, Trump says we don't. So it's like these are the real debates that the right should have crushed the Democrats. We should have owned the entire political body. Politic naturally split into two different right wings. But we gave the Democrats a couple oxygen tanks. So they're going to last at least another two election cycles, I'd say.
- [43:31]
B
And here's something else else that I think people need to realize. I, I think, I bet you agree with me that the woke fever is broken. It's peaked. Democrats are receding from it. Gavin Newsom telling Charlie Kirk, yeah, men should be playing women's sports and everyone's happy. Great. That's Leah Thomas. UPENN is apologizing, which you and I, I think it was a year ago, said, hey, I bet you 500 bucks UPenn's gonna apologize for this. You'd be like, here's 5,000. Now let's shut up. It's never gonna happen, right? It seemed ridiculous at the time, but careful what you wish for. In the same way that in 79 they're like, oh, the shy ran's the worst person ever. Whatever's better is going to be better. And then the ayatollahs come in, they're going to go away from woke. Economic leftism, sorry, social leftism. To economic leftism. They're going to, in my opinion. I want to hear your thoughts. They're going toward economic communism. And that's when things really get scary. Because I'm not a fan of woke at all, to be honest, to be clear. But this economic communism is when it's just really destroys all countries. Look at Venezuela.
- [44:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's what. And again, I would never vote for it, but I am kind of rooting for it to take over just because it's, it's the future of American politics where it's basically socialists versus nationalists.
- [44:41]
B
Yeah.
- [44:41]
A
Which of course is ironic for many reasons. But I, but I, but I do think that that's, I do think that that's where it's going now. The strange thing is we really in many ways already live in a socialist country. You're already taxed about 30% of the money you make, which is outrageous. The amount of foreign aid and welfare that's doled out by the American taxpayer is outrageous. So we've kind of already done that. It's just, we don't like to announce it. Right. We don't, we don't stamp socialism on, on the things that we do, even though we're kind of already there policy wise. But there's no doubt that's where the Democrat Party is headed. Outright communism. Outright socialism. You know, they like to say taxing the rich, whatever, you know, raising the minimum wage. They don't understand how this is actually bad for the economy. It's stunning.
- [45:27]
B
They understand. They want it to be bad because then they have more power.
- [45:32]
A
But do you really think they understand how the people that they're trying to help are going to suffer? Do you, do you really think they understand that?
- [45:38]
B
I think they don't care. That's my belief.
- [45:41]
A
Well, I, I would differ. I don't know. Maybe I have more hope for humanity than you. Maybe.
- [45:46]
B
I'm not talking about humanity. I'm talking about socialists.
- [45:50]
A
I think, I don't know. I, I think AOC genuinely thinks she's helping people.
- [45:55]
B
I, I think AOC is a bad example. I think there's people behind AOC and like the Soros types and things, people like that, people behind them.
- [46:02]
A
That's true. Yeah.
- [46:03]
B
I think even if AOC and mom Donnie would vote the same thing in every issue, I don't think they're the same person. I think AOC is this bright eyed college kid, whatever, and I think he's a narcissistic sociopath. And I think it's very clear if you watch how they talk, that there's different phenomena going on behind their eyes.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that. It's going to be interesting to see what happens in that race. And Republicans, man. And I guess Adams isn't a Republican, but Republicans are the best at finding ways to lose elections.
- [46:32]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [46:33]
A
So I feel like they'll find a way to hand this one to Mom, Donnie, if they haven't already.
- [46:38]
B
Yeah, but that's the whole thing. It's the Democrats who are going to stop him, just like they stopped Bernie twice. Just like Nancy Pelosi. Shut the. Shut the squad up.
- [46:46]
A
Do you think the Democrats want Adams?
- [46:48]
B
I think the Democrats want to stop. You know how I know the Democrats want to stop this guy? Because the New York Times, which is that far right, alt right newspaper, ran a piece about how he lied about pretending to be black and couldn't get into Columbia. If the New York Times, acknowledging it now, that is giving a signal to the left, this isn't our guy. We got to stop him.
- [47:10]
A
Yeah, but those aren't the voters. Those aren't the voters.
- [47:14]
B
Democratic primary voters in New York. I'm from New York. The Democratic primary voters in New York are not the same as the electorate. Now, I'm not at all saying he has no shot, but I'm saying I would not personally want to face the New York Democratic machine because I don't think they play nice. And I think they have lots of tricks up their sleeve.
- [47:33]
A
I think. I think the more they attack him, the stronger he gets is kind of the way I look at it right now. I actually. I placed a friendly wager. I think he's going to win.
- [47:42]
B
You want to. Do you want to make a handshake bet?
- [47:45]
A
Yeah.
- [47:46]
B
Dinner is on the loser. Fair.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah. Because we're both in Austin, so.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [47:51]
A
All right. I'll double down. I'll double down. I'll take Mom. Donnie.
- [47:54]
B
We'll have a nice. And I'm saying not.
- [47:56]
A
He's got a cool T shirt, man. He's got a. No, he's got. He's got the Zoran T shirt, and he's got supermodels shaking their titties for him. I mean, come on, man. This is a campaign we can all get behind.
- [48:09]
B
Oh, and I know you got a bounce, and we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?
- [48:16]
A
Just finally coming on with you, honestly? Just finally, finally making the connection, and I hope we can do it again. I need to get you on my show. As well. I need to get a follow up and hopefully, I guess, I don't know when the New York election is. Maybe we'll. Maybe we'll get together here in Austin before then.
- [48:32]
B
Of course.
- [48:33]
A
But we gotta find. We gotta find a common place where it's safe for. For people like us to go here in Austin now. Because it's crazy out there, man.
- [48:40]
B
You are welcome.
- [48:53]
A
Hey, it's James Alducher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand up comic, and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altucher show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Altucher Show.