Peter Boghossian - Episode #407

Summary

YOUR WELCOME with Michael Malice
Episode #407: Peter Boghossian
Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Michael Malice
Guest: Peter Boghossian

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Malice welcomes philosopher and author Peter Boghossian for a wide-ranging, fast-paced discussion on the state of modern discourse, the tension between truth and utility in human motivation, the dangers (and seductions) of social media, and the complexities of ideology—from geopolitics to interpersonal relationships. True to form, Malice’s sharp wit and dry humor guide a candid and often provocative exchange about human nature, belief, narrative, and the modern information landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Iranian Crisis & U.S. Foreign Policy

[00:48–09:18]

• Malice, recovering from food poisoning, opens with his concern about the U.S. and Israel bombing Iran, feeling both hope for Iranians and anxiety over the region’s instability.
• Boghossian highlights Western leftist factions who, he claims, paradoxically side with Iran’s religious authorities against their own liberal values:

  “They have some bizarre support of these pre-medieval religious maniacs.” (Boghossian, 03:22)

• Both hosts express skepticism toward U.S. foreign policy, highlighting historical betrayals of local populations (e.g., Kurds, Afghans) and lack of exit strategies:

  “US Foreign policy has often been extremely cynical behind the scenes.” (Malice, 03:57)

• Concern over “regime change” fallout—regimes can always get worse, not better. Malice laments the unpredictability and cruelty of international interventions.
• Both agree on personal admiration for Iranian-Americans, noting their high education and civic contribution.
• Boghossian jokes about his inability to offer expert commentary:

  “I just don’t think anybody should listen to anything I have to say on it.” (Boghossian, 08:25)

• Humorous exchange on voicing opinions as non-experts.

  Malice: “Well, that's going to be kind of tricky for this podcast.” (09:18)

Why We Listen to Unqualified Opinions

[09:44–13:43]

• Discussion turns to why figures like Greta Thunberg and Cenk Uygur command attention—Malice argues people follow political figures as tribal signifiers, akin to sports teams.
• Boghossian warns that even criticism amplifies unworthy voices:

  “Every criticism you make, you’re just making that person’s platform grow. So why would you do that?” (Boghossian, 10:11)

• The anatomy of political fandom is dissected—most people don their favorite identity “merch” not for truth, but for social belonging.

Human Beings: Truth-Seekers or Narrative-Seekers?

[12:12–35:24]

• Boghossian wants to believe that, at our core, people want to know what’s true:

  “Aristotle’s metaphysics… all people desire to know.” (Boghossian, 17:30)

• Malice strenuously disagrees, arguing most people avoid truths that disrupt comfort:

  “People desperately want to avoid knowing what’s true. They want to know what is of utility for them…” (Malice, 17:52)

• Lively analogies ensue (e.g., the “did I turn off the stove?” scenario and the classic “Does this dress make me look fat?” dilemma), with both hosts using personal and psychological examples to probe the human aversion to uncomfortable truth.
• The discussion references real-life situations—post-Stasi East Germany (“the File”)—where people deliberately avoided painful knowledge:

  “Every single former East German had to ask themselves, do I want to know who was reporting on me?” (Malice, 29:51)

• Malice admits he might choose ignorance to avoid trauma; Boghossian stresses his drive to know the full truth, even if it means ending relationships:

  “I just would want to know. I would want to know as much as I can.” (Boghossian, 33:20)

• Both explore how social context, trauma, or repression shapes whether we seek or avoid knowledge.

Social Media, Attention Economy, and the Flattery Machine

[36:15–45:13]

• Malice notes post-COVID changes: people now “need” agitation, and social media companies exploit this for engagement:

  “You got to get people riled up…that is what feeds the algorithm.” (Malice, 37:06)

• Boghossian highlights how AI and recommendation systems flatter and validate users, keeping us hooked:

  “It’s just a flattery machine. And I see it—even though I put [Grok] in a prompt ‘don’t flatter me’, it still flatters me. But you know, we want to be flattered…” (Boghossian, 43:50)

• The hosts express deep concern about the implications when AI can know users better than they know themselves and personalize manipulative feedback.
• Humorous, dark solution:

  Malice (jokingly): “Kill everyone. Now.” (40:44)

Radical Honesty, Framing, and Building True Relationships

[45:13–49:24]

• Boghossian extols the virtues of being utterly forthright, especially in close relationships:

  “Start being utterly forthright in your speech. And the consequence of that is: you will—or they’ll kick themselves to the curb. Your relationships will be better, higher quality, far more honest, more loving, more wholesome.” (45:01)

• Malice co-signs this advice, noting that deep honesty forges life-long supportive networks, even if it’s socially costly in youth or early jobs.
• On “framing”—differences in how truths are presented and received—Boghossian suggests it’s key to understanding why two people can interpret the same facts differently.

How to Have ‘Impossible Conversations’ in an Age of Polarization

[56:23–69:45]

• Malice observes that certain public topics (e.g., Epstein, Trump) are now “impossible conversations”: even a minor disagreement is seen as monstrous.
• Boghossian agrees but notes that, paradoxically, some formerly-taboo subjects are becoming more discussible.
• Condensing his book’s advice:

  “Listen to, understand…Once you hear somebody or you think you hear someone, repeat back to them what you thought you heard…what you’re looking for them is to say ‘yes’ or especially ‘that’s right’.” (Boghossian, 59:24)

• He emphasizes curiosity over empathy: “All you need to do is have a curiosity about why someone believes something.”
• Key practical question:

  “What would it take to change your mind on that?” (Boghossian, 61:00)

• Both stress the importance of steelmanning others’ points, celebrating “I don’t know” as an honest answer.

The Utility of Belief and the Role of Religion

[69:06–72:15]

• Malice raises the argument that, regardless of truth, religion can make people better—shouldn’t this pragmatic benefit matter?
• Boghossian admits that some people “need certain narratives and stories and if they don’t have them, they go to crazy town,” distinguishing between benign and malignant delusions.
• Both agree that society is better off with “benign delusions” if the alternative is more destructive ideology.

• “It’s far better off for society if people hold benign delusions than if they hold malevolent delusions.” (Boghossian, 71:58)

When Contradiction Isn’t a Bug but a Feature

[73:53–76:49]

• Malice notes how public figures’ identities are selectively framed for political convenience (e.g. Bill Clinton as the “first black president” vs. Clarence Thomas “not really black”).
• Boghossian asserts:

  “The only reason that you and I think that this is a problem is because we buy into certain first principles, like we buy into the principle of noncontradiction.” (Boghossian, 73:53)

• Malice:

  “They use language to manipulate, not to communicate.” (74:25)

• Boghossian relates how some ideological actors want not only their freedom, but dominance—citing a point from Faisal al Mutar.

Final Reflections

[77:09–77:40]

• Boghossian’s favorite part of the exchange?

  “Seeing how you processed my making arguments for your case against my own position.” (77:09)

• Malice: “You are welcome.” (77:27)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Western activism for Iran:

  “They have some bizarre support of these pre-medieval religious maniacs.” (Boghossian, 03:22)

• On narrative over truth:

  “I don’t think human beings are truth seeking animals. I think they are narrative seeking animals.” (Malice, 12:12)

• On amplifying fools:

  “Every criticism you make, you’re just making that person's platform grow.” (Boghossian, 10:11)

• On Stasi files and difficult truths:

  “Every single former East German had to ask themselves, do I want to know what they had on me? And do I want to know who was reporting on me?” (Malice, 29:51)

• On forthrightness in relationships:

  “Start being utterly forthright in your speech…Your relationships will be better, higher quality, far more honest, more loving.” (Boghossian, 45:01)

• On the role of framing:

  “The way that we frame truth is very important. The way we frame statements and how people interpret those.” (Boghossian, 48:15)

• On the impossibility of some conversations:

  “It seems that the conversation literally is impossible because if you disagree in any way, you’re actually a child toucher.” (Malice, 57:22)

• Advice for better conversations:

  “Listen to, understand…repeat back to them…What would it take to change your mind on that?” (Boghossian, 59:24/61:00)

• On the utility of religious belief:

  “It’s far better off for society if people hold benign delusions than if they hold malevolent delusions.” (Boghossian, 71:58)

• On contradiction in activist discourse:

  “They use language to manipulate, not to communicate.” (Malice, 74:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Iran & U.S. Foreign Policy: 00:48–09:18
• Tribalism & Political Voices: 09:44–13:43
• Truth vs. Utility in Human Motivation: 12:12–35:24
• Social Media & Flattery Machine: 36:15–45:13
• Radical Honesty & Framing: 45:13–49:24
• Impossible Conversations & Techniques: 56:23–69:45
• Religion’s Utility & Delusion: 69:06–72:15
• Contradiction & Manipulation in Discourse: 73:53–76:49
• Episode Wrap & Reflections: 77:09–77:40

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Tone and Flow

The episode seamlessly entwines intellectual humility, philosophical inquiry, and dark, sometimes acerbic humor. Malice’s skepticism and sardonic style are balanced by Boghossian’s philosopher’s earnestness and willingness to argue against himself. The conversation, while wide-ranging, stays tightly focused on the challenge of meaning-making (and meaning-distortion) in the modern world.

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For New Listeners

If you haven’t tuned in, this episode offers a masterclass in philosophical sparring, debunking comforting illusions, and practical advice for surviving and thriving in a culture defined by noise, narrative, and rapidly shifting truths. Expect both rigorous argument and biting wit.

Transcript

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[Michael Malice]

Grocery outlet bargain market Folks, my new graphic novel Unwanted a tall tale of the old western new wave in is out for pre order now. I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it [e-mail]. Good afternoon. Michael Vallis here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. We have with us a guest I've been trying for months to get in the show. He's extremely busy and extremely interesting. Peter Boghossian. Peter, you co authored with James Lindsay a book which I read and enjoyed called how to have Impossible Conversations. You also wrote a manual for creating atheists. Your former academic who has been very disturbed by the liberal illiberal trends in academia. One of the things before we started talking, you asked me how I was doing and I said not so hot because last week I went to a maha event here in Austin. Afterwards we all went out to a restaurant. I got food poisoning, which as far as diseases go, it's one of the better ones to have because I knew, all right, a couple of days I'm going to be fine. So as I'm like, nap, wake up, nap, wake up, you know, trots. And then I wake up Saturday and the US is bomb and Israel are bombing Iran and I'm looking at delirious. I'm like, I can't deal with this right now. And I am very concerned with the Iranian situation even at the same time being very hopeful for the Persian people who are awesome and badass and. And I'm like, peter, I'm not doing so great. And you said, yeah, you're probably talking to the exact wrong person because I'm with you. So sir, the floor is. And by the way, we're recording this on Friday, it's going to be dated by the time it drops because the news is happening so quickly. And every day it's something else. It's like yesterday, I don't know if people saw this, Trump was tweeting out that no gender mutilation on children except with the written consent of the parents. And it was like, oh, I, I can't anymore. Please, I've said enough.

[Peter Boghossian]

I know.

[Michael Malice]

You have the floor.

[Peter Boghossian]

I know. So I'm, I'm no expert in Iran, but I do think that the. There are some very nasty elements. And as much as I try to make this apolitical, there are some very nasty elements on the left who do not have the best interests of the Iranian people in mind. And it's not merely that they object to U. S. Military intervention in the region. It's that they have some bizarre support of these pre medieval religious maniacs. And so I'm deeply disturbed by that when I see them as all civilized people should be. Protests on the streets of major cities in the West.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I hear you, but the major cities in the west currently are not violent centers. And something else we were talking about before we started, where I see something that I don't think people have mentioned before, which I'm very terrified about, is President Trump has been very vocal about encouraging people in Iran to step up and overthrow the regime. He also knows perfectly well that this very same regime just recently killed thousands of those people. And the US Has a history of Afghanistan being the most recent example of saying, hey, work with us. We're the US we're the good guys. And people do that. And then as soon as they're expendable, the Kurds were left holding it back, I think in 2019 or whatever it was. As soon as they're expendable, it's like, all right, deuces. And not even that sometimes they're handed over as bargaining chips. So I think US Foreign policy has often been extremely cynical behind the scenes. And that is my just concern is it doesn't seem like that they, they know how to stick this landing.

[Peter Boghossian]

So the name of that group was Neville Roy Shingham. And they're funding both of the sides. They're, they're funding pro, if you can believe this, pro Iranian regime. And, and the protests in the United States, I'm not sure, you know, from one of the holdovers of the Powell Doctrine, overwhelming force, clear exit strategy. I'm not sure we have a clear exit strategy. I think that a lot of this is just hope that. And I agree with the hope, and I'm sure you agree with the hope. Hope that the Iranians will build their future. I'm not, not sure under a monarchy is the way to go, but I'm again no expert in this whatsoever. I am deeply disturbed about the possibility of American troops on the ground. I don't know. I don't know the other. I don't. I don't know the option if the Iranian people don't wake up and revolt. I remember I was just reading something about being on a train and women were not wearing a hijab and one of the religious police came by and fortunately we struck the main, the main building of the religious police and they, the women shouted at the guy and kicked him off the train. Why did they didn't throw him off of a moving train is utterly beyond me. I would have been, I would have completely thrown him off the train while it was moving. So if they're not even willing to do that, I don't know. But I do know that Iranian Americans who come, Iranians who come to America, by and large incredibly well educated, lower incarceration rates, higher contributions to the treasury, they tend to be model citizens. Oh, and just as a parenthetical, every single Iranian I have ever met in my whole life, without exception, and that is a considerable number, have been extraordinarily knowledgeable about politics. So if you ever get in an Uber or something and the driver's Iranian, just start talking about politics. It's really uncanny. But. But I like you, I wish the Iranian people well. I have no access to the Trump administration. My only hope is that they can overthrow these maniacs is as quickly as possible. Actually, I have a hidden hope and that they all swing from lampposts for what they've done to the people for the last decades. But I don't know. I don't want troops on the ground like yourself. But I do think in balance, I'm against military options, but this is probably the right way to go.

[Michael Malice]

But I'm also extremely concerned because we're. Iran is now Iran because of regime change. Because the argument was the Shah's intolerable, he's this dictator, blah, blah, blah, anything's better than that. And 1979 comes along and the idea that you can't get worse than what they have now is not at all true. Like the alternative to the Ayatollah, you can. That dial can get turned up even more if they were even more violent or fundamentalist or interventionist or who knows what. The idea that like we could go to Pol Pot or something like that. Like, it does often get worse. So. And if, when you have a nation that's being, you know, bombed, a lot of times you're going to double down and support the people in power because at least those are your people. So this is kind of where, you know, my head is at. And I'm sure the head is of a lot of people, you know, watching this right now.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. And again, I'm not sure anybody should listen to my unlettered opinion on this. I'm. Okay, I'm just not an expert. I mean, I have a lot of opinions on it, but the older I get, the more I realize that. You know, it's funny. It's like people will write criticisms of Greta Thonberg or Cenk Unger, and I'm always like, you know, Cenk is wrong about this. Who gives a about. I mean, they've not written books about it. They've not. They have nothing intel. They're not experts in the area, so why would you even listen to them? And I'm always fascinated when people criticize. I just think these people are just best ignored. And so I think I'm probably in the category of people who should be best ignored because I have opinions and I have impulses. And I actually have been following this story somewhat. I wouldn't say very closely, but somewhat closely for the last 20 years. But I just don't think. I just don't think anybody should listen to anything I have to say on it.

[Michael Malice]

Well, that's going to be kind of tricky for this podcast.

[Peter Boghossian]

I mean, okay, folks, I mean, Yeah,

[Michael Malice]

it's like, it's like you showed up to a job and you're like, yeah, I'm not really looking for work. It's like, okay.

[Peter Boghossian]

But I do think there's something really important about figuring out whose voice doesn't matter.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Peter Boghossian]

And I.

[Michael Malice]

If your question was sincere, I can answer it. Why people care what Jenkyer or Greta Thunberg have to say? It's, it's the political, the politics version of sports. So there's a Red Sox fan or a Yankees fan and you're you people sense of identity was, you know, I got the Yankees jacket on. I'm a Greta fan or I'm a Cenk fan. That's how people. That's their lens through which they process information.

[Peter Boghossian]

But every time you do that, you amplify the lens. You like Candace Owens, you increase the voice of somebody whose voice shouldn't be increased. Like every criticism you Make. You're just making that person's platform grow. So why would you do that? I just ignore all these people because

[Michael Malice]

why wouldn't you want the Yankees to win the World Series?

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, because what I don't. I think this is where the analogy breaks down. I don't think it's as simple as rank tribalism. If you really want to, and if you're a thoughtful, reasonable, sane, intelligent person, you will find.

[Michael Malice]

Hold on, I'm going to cut you off because that is the biggest if I've ever heard in my life. The percentage of people who are what you just described is like 2%.

[Peter Boghossian]

So I'm really glad you brought that up because the number of people I've seen criticize Candace Owens or criticize people who not only do they not know what they're talking about, but they're just completely insane and you should never listen to them at all. The number of people who criticize them. If it, it's kind of like, you know, when my dad died, I was at his wake and the people there, this is many years ago, were talking to me about Milo Yiannopoulos. The only thing that made Milo Yiannopoulos is the fact that people protested Myopoulos. If nobody ever protested Milianopoulos, you know, you'd never know who he was. If nobody ever commented on that, that lunatic Jenks tweets or no, I mean, he would just fade into obscurity. So why are you amplifying the voices of people with whom like you think these people are, are on your other tribe? Because they have fundamental disagreements with you and, and you think that they're fools. And in, in many aspects they are. But you could gain more traction and be a more serious person if you just advocated for those people who actually knew what they were talking about. But like Mike Duran.

[Michael Malice]

I, I don't think that, I think you're operating from an enlightenment model that I completely disagree with. I don't think human beings, Sure. I don't think human beings are truth seeking animals. I think they are narrative seeking animals. And if someone has a narrative that, that I find preferable to another, it might not be more honest, but it might be more entertaining. And it's much more entertaining for me. For me, just Mr. Not me, Michael Malice for someone to think about, oh, does Brigitte Macron have a wang? And that's a cool, interesting story. You're laughing, right? Because it's an interesting story, then like, who cares who the first lady of France is? So that's a very easy answer. Why Someone might be interested. And the thing is, Jon Stewart did this very effectively during the Bush years. When you have the Daily show clowning George W. Bush every day with good reason, and the other people are miserable, stick in the muds. You're going to go with the guys who are having a good time. So when someone is telling a great, compelling story or interesting story or something, whatever it is, conspiracies, especially the flat earth. My God, that's fascinating. Like every pilot on earth has to be in on it. Like it's, it's really involved. That's going to have a big audience. And the Internet and the algorithms incentivize that. People don't want boring. They want to feel like they're members of the initiates. This has been a thing since the Greek times. Or you're initiated into a faith.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, I want to disagree with you, and I want to disagree with you profoundly, because the only opportunity for hope is to disagree with you. But I don't disagree with you. I think that that's absolutely correct. I mean, if you wanted to be a serious person and take an honest look at ideas, you would read both sides of the issue, or at least listen to people on both sides of the issue and then find people who are qualified to speak about those things and then amplify those views. But I do think we're narrative seeking creatures. And I laughed at the Brigitte Macron because we were just in France and I asked many French people if they thought Brigitte Macron had a penis. And many people do. When we were in the slums, they did think that Brigitte Macron had a penis. So there is something alluring about that. And it's funny and it's, and it's interesting, but we're also talking about trafficking in people's lives, trafficking in our fellow Americans lives. And at some point, at some point, it just, it just very, very quickly. There's a difference between talking about whether or not Brigitte Macron is a penis and talking about bombing civilians and civilian infrastructure. And. But I do think you're right. I do think we're narrative seeking creatures. But I also think that it is incumbent upon us to have more of a call for honesty and sincerity and seriousness when we're dealing with these. I mean, look, this is why we're in the, this is one of the reasons we're in the mess that we're in right now. So I, I find the whole thing rather disturbing. We've given people social media tools that allow them to amplify the stupidest of people. Candace Owens is just insane. And then we've given people tools like again, social media. I'm thinking Nick Fuentes. We've given Nick Fuentes. And you know, it's interesting.

[Michael Malice]

Who's we? This is where I think you and I disagree.

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, there are many countries, France, New Zealand, Australia, who either want to or in the process of banning social media.

[Michael Malice]

Well, for kids. Not entirely for kids, correct?

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, for kids, sure. And in the case of Australia, just as an aside, they want to ban all social media, but not blue sky. So I'll let you think about what that.

[Michael Malice]

But I also, Peter, I think you and I are both old enough to know that every. I bet, I bet you a significant amount of money that every kid is going to be able to, in five seconds, find workarounds for that. And they're not going to be prosecutable because they're kids.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, maybe, but that's the we, right? The we is that we've enabled people to amplify the voices of the stupidest people, as opposed to enable them to amplify the voices of people who've given the idea a lifetime of scholarly consideration and experience in those countries and who speak the language. Like when I, when we go around the world and we talk about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, for example, I'm amazed how many people don't even know the rudiments or couldn't even, don't even know from the river to the sea. What river? What sea? So I just think we need to be more mindful about how we approach it, given the existential stakes. And we're literally talking about something life and death. So why would we want to amplify the voices of people who are fools? Cenk is a fool. Why would we want to amplify his voice?

[Michael Malice]

Well, okay, I, I, I, I, point taken. But I, I just really don't like that word we, because I, I don't think there is this community, even if you're just going to say Americans, that is interested in truth or goodness or there ever has been. I think when you're saying what I'm saying that there's no hope. I think if you're complaining that like a tree can't read, that's kind of on you. This is the human condition, in my view, and it always has been the human condition.

[Peter Boghossian]

I guess that's a, that's a fundamental disagreement we should explore way back to Aristotle's metaphysics. I think the first line is something like all people desire to know.

[Michael Malice]

That's not true.

[Peter Boghossian]

I think we do all. I think we know. I mean, everybody wants to know. It's just that everybody is. You don't think that's true?

[Michael Malice]

No. That's insane. Have you left your house?

[Peter Boghossian]

You know, so you don't think people want to know what's true?

[Michael Malice]

I want. People desperately want to avoid knowing what's true. They want to know what is of utility for them to put food on the table. And if they have to smile and nod and say absurdities, they'll, they'll. They'll say it so long, they'll go. They'll get hoarse.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they don't want to know it's true. That just means that they're performing something to satisfy their. Whatever their material needs are.

[Michael Malice]

It's easy to put on the honest performance if you don't know what the truth is. That's a evolutionary psychology perspective.

[Peter Boghossian]

I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't think that that's true. I mean, I'm thinking of the. I'm thinking of the Terror Museum in Budapest in which, I mean, there were just so many examples. And I've spent, Been spending a lot of time in Eastern Europe and the terrible suffering of those people.

[Michael Malice]

Under the book, you can't see, but the book behind me, the White Pill, is about the rise of all the Soviet Union.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. So there are some horrific things there. And people even then, in the most extreme of circumstances, through torture, etc. They wanted to know what's true. They wanted to figure out.

[Michael Malice]

You.

[Peter Boghossian]

Don't you think people in their own

[Michael Malice]

delusions, some of them wanted to know what's true and others were perfectly happy to turn in their neighbors for that extra loaf of bread.

[Peter Boghossian]

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. So I guess, I guess, I guess the disagreement boils down to, you think people don't want to know it's true. They want to believe things that yield them utility. And I think people want. Want both. I think if people know what's true, it's easier for them to figure out what yields utility than just shutting off their brain.

[Michael Malice]

It's hard.

[Peter Boghossian]

I mean, I've literally, I've literally talked to just at this point, not even tens, but hundreds of thousands of people. And I think that there are impediments for people to figure out what's true, like morality or belonging, or they want to belong more than they want to know it's true or they want a virtue signal, etcetera. And so there is a kind of self deception in which people convince themselves that a man is a woman or whatever, whatever derangement they want to convince themselves of, but when they convince themselves of that, they're also convincing themselves of, of something that they believe is true.

[Michael Malice]

Right, Right.

[Peter Boghossian]

So I, I don't, I, I, I can, I'm trying to think of an example. So in the, in the literature, this is called doxastic volunteerism in the philosophy literature. And the idea is that you can willingly choose your beliefs. So if I may give it a couple of examples, please. So, so, because I think that this speaks to the nature of our disagreement. So let's say that you're, you and your girlfriend are going to go. So you're, are you in Austin now?

[Michael Malice]

Yes, sir.

[Peter Boghossian]

Okay, so you call me sir. I work for a living. It's the gray hair. I get the sir. So you guys want to go, go to Houston for a vacation, right? You want to go to Houston for a vacation. And so you get in your car and your drive, and when you're 60% of the way to Houston, your girlfriend says to you, oh, shit, Michael, did we turn off the stove? And you're thinking, you're thinking, you're thinking, but there's something, and you don't know if you turn off the stove, but you don't want to drive 60% of the way back. So you, you kind of convince yourself you, you didn't really choose the belief. It's that, that doxa from the Greek is belief. You convince yourself that you shut off the stove so you can have a happy vacation with your girlfriend. So, I mean, there are numerous examples of people who choose to believe something. I'm actually kind of making your point for you. But there are numerous examples of. Yeah, yeah, but, but that's, but that's what happens when you, when you talk to someone. You're interested in truth. Right? So I'm not wedded to my belief. You could be totally right.

[Michael Malice]

This, this makes, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be that guy, but I have to be that guy because this analogy makes zero sense for me. First of all, this is one of one data. One stove or not is life or death. And it is something that has no a point broader than something that's happening today. This doesn't affect my job, doesn't affect my philosophy. This is something that no one disagrees with, that it's good not to have the stove.

[Peter Boghossian]

Second of all, then let me, let me give you another example. Then let me give you another example.

[Michael Malice]

Sure. Yeah. I'll tell you an example. I'll give you an example.

[Peter Boghossian]

Okay, you give me example.

[Michael Malice]

I'll give you an easy one. Does this dress make me look fat? I'm not interested in the truth. And in fact, it's easier for me to pull off that line with the straight. The reply with a straight face if I've convinced myself she looks good in that dress.

[Peter Boghossian]

Okay, all right, I'm going to bracket that because I'm going to come back to that example with my example. With my example.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Peter Boghossian]

Your girlfriend comes home one night and she. She's in a hurry to get out the next day, and she just throws her clothes in, and you want to do a load of laundry, and you throw her clothes in the washing machine, and you realize that you find a condom in her pocket and you say to her, and you're very happy. You have a great relationship. You. You say to her, is this your condom? Is this. Did you what. You know, what do you know about this? She said, no, no, it, it's, it's. It's not. It's not my, My condom. It's my friend. She gave it to me to. You know that she gave it to you because she didn't want her boyfriend to find it. You're like, okay, whatever. It's not us, so it doesn't really matter to me.

[Michael Malice]

So

[Peter Boghossian]

unbeknownst to you, just as an aside, unbeknownst to you, she's telling you the truth, because when she fucks her lover, they never use a condom. But it's one of those things that you would persuade yourself. You'd think to yourself, well, my relationship is great. I want to believe her because I want to sustain my happiness.

[Michael Malice]

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[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

This is a situation where you have an enormous investment in the other person. We're not. So truth has extreme importance vis a vis the future of the relationship. People regarding politics or things like that. Knowing true or false, I'm not in a position to literally pick the president or my senator. I could have my preferences and vote, but it's going to be largely out of my hands. I all politics out of my hands. So it's a completely different framework than a one on one intimate relationship.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's why, that's why I was giving that example, because I thought if you would agree to that example, you would agree to lesser examples. Like if you would agree of something that you're completely emotionally involved in and invested in. And if you're, you're, you're willing to lie to yourself about that, what else would, wouldn't you be willing to lie to yourself about?

[Michael Malice]

Right, but that's the point is if you're saying people are.

[Peter Boghossian]

I know. I'm making your point to you. I'm making your point for you.

[Michael Malice]

And I spell that out to the audience because some of them aren't as smart as you, sir. Point being, yeah, people are extremely willing. Upton Sinclair, I think, said it's impossible to convince a man of something if his paycheck depends on him believing the opposite. So it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a just a given.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. So now, now I'm going to argue against my own examples. So.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Peter Boghossian]

But, but I do think, I do think it's important when you have these conversations to kind of often it's, you know, one side says this and then, and then one side says something else.

[Michael Malice]

People who haven't read the book. The answer to how to have impossible conversations is to take both sides and not reach any conclusion.

[Peter Boghossian]

No. Okay, so for real. So I, I do think that there are a tremendous number of ex. In which people don't want to know what's true, as particularly if it's moral or if it's emotional. They don't want to know it's true or, you know, I'm also thinking of this, these kind of collaborator. You have sympathies with an occupation, but you know that they're killing collaborators. And you don't want to know that your Uncle Jim is a collaborator. So I think you can certainly find examples.

[Michael Malice]

Wait, Peter, do you know that book, the File?

[Peter Boghossian]

I do, I do. I have not read it, but I'm familiar with it.

[Michael Malice]

So people who don't know, this is something I learned when I was writing the White Pill. When you hear about this, it just blows your mind. When Germany got reunified, the Stasi files, which they had on every single person in East Germany were opened, and every single former East German had to ask themselves, do I want to know what they had on me? And do I want to know who was reporting on me? And if, what do I do with this knowledge? If I had it, it sounds like a movie. This actually happened to an entire population of people. And I discussed this in my book the White Pill. There's a woman whose job it was to walk people through these files and prepare them. And this lady came in and she's been sentenced to four or five, seven, I don't remember how many years in jail because she said she wanted to leave East Germany. And she reads the files and I'm choking up actually just talking about it. And she found out it was the guy she's still living with and she has to go home to that. And she just kind of collapses in this woman's Frau Trompelman was her name. And the author goes, how do you work with poison and not yourself become poisoned? So I don't know that if in that situation that if I was in East German, God help me when those files got open that I'd want to know.

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, I just could say, correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't read it, but I've read excerpts from it and summarize. There are so many people who did not want to know. Isn't that, of course, correct?

[Michael Malice]

Yes. And so I'd be one of them, I think.

[Peter Boghossian]

Oh, would you really?

[Michael Malice]

I think so.

[Peter Boghossian]

Why? Why wouldn't you want to know if, like, your friends are ratting you out?

[Michael Malice]

Because I don't know why they're doing it. Maybe there's a gun to their head. It's done. I'm not saying this with certainty because we don't know. We're not in that situation. It's easy to sit here from the comfort of America and be like, I would, but I strongly feel that I'd be like, we're living in a lifeboat, people under insane pressures. I'm gonna clean slate it. I think that's what I would do. I would best guess.

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, you are a very forgiving person.

[Michael Malice]

I'm not forgiving. I just couldn't handle the trauma of knowing someone who has publicly or between me and them, been a great friend to me, has also done something which has caused me no negative consequences and now has been resolved and I don't know why. You know what I mean? I don't know what pressures they were facing.

[Peter Boghossian]

Are you Christian?

[Michael Malice]

No, I'm Jewish, but I'm not religious, particularly.

[Peter Boghossian]

That's a very Christian attitude.

[Michael Malice]

I'm not sure. I'm not saying they're.

[Peter Boghossian]

Oh, you're not forgiving. Oh, you're not forgiving.

[Michael Malice]

But I'm saying, what would we want to know?

[Peter Boghossian]

Right?

[Michael Malice]

What would be the point of yelling at them now when they've been good friends to me otherwise, or sister.

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, what about the. What about the woman in the book now that she knows that?

[Michael Malice]

I think it'd be different if I got sent. If I got sent to jail, then, okay, we have a different situation, then I want to know, because then I need to know who the rat is. But I'm talking about it. If it's like, if I was relatively fine and have legal trouble and they were just spying on me, but nothing came as a consequence of this. I think I would prefer to. I think it's very common. People are victims of trauma to be like, I don't want to revisit it.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, I guess if. I guess. I guess my orientation to truth is very different. My orientation to vengeance is probably different than yours as well. But my. I just. I would just want to know. I would want to know as much as I can. I wouldn't want to know everything.

[Michael Malice]

But what would you do with that information?

[Peter Boghossian]

I would completely excise people from my life. My life.

[Michael Malice]

But you don't know. But the thing is, I'm not trying to be.

[Peter Boghossian]

No, push back, anything you want.

[Michael Malice]

I'm not trying to be glib here, but I think it's very different for us in a relatively free country. We don't know what it's like when everyone is part. I mean, that's how it works when you have these totalitarian dictatorships. Everyone has to be part of the problem. You don't have. You can't have clean hands and live. So it's, it's. I. And that's kind of part of it.

[Peter Boghossian]

No, I think. I think you're right. There is a kind of bias because I live in a free society and my response is given. I just. I don't know. I just don't think I'm a very forgiving person. But I just. It's not even forgiving. I don't even think I'm. I'm. I just. I just, I've all. I've always been puzzled by the, you know, the Garden, the eat. Garden of Eden story about knowledge of. Of good and evil. I've. I've. I just think that more knowledge is better because more knowledge enables you to make better decisions about things. I would definitely want to know if someone had ratted me out. And I would, to the best of my ability. I can't do that now because of my quote, unquote situatedness. But I would take that into account for how I'd proceed in my relationships with people. But especially when you're talking about the woman who is in an intimate relationship with someone. I mean, that's the most important thing in your life is your intimate relationship.

[Michael Malice]

That's a different situation. If someone sent me to jail, I'd want to know who sent me to jail. Yes.

[Peter Boghossian]

That's not even to jail. You wouldn't want to know if your girlfriend was ratting you out to the Stasi or to the. I mean, I just. Look, I guess this. My orientation may be different from yours. I just would want to know as much as possible. And not even about personal relationships. I just, I do think Aristotle's right. All men, all people desire to know. I just want to know true things. And I think all men don't desire to know.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, you and I are one data point each.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, maybe I'm projecting. I mean, it could certainly be that I'm projecting. It could also be that my beliefs have become particularly squishy on things like this. And so I think I've been thinking about this lately. I think one of the things that happens when you truly listen to somebody, and as I get older, I become a better listener, is that you kind of adopt, to a certain extent, the framework for some of those beliefs, at least for the purpose of the conversation. So, yeah, I mean, I. It's entirely possible that I could be wrong about that.

[Michael Malice]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna change gears a little bit because you were talking earlier about, you know, people whose voices you find crazy have been amplified. I want to hear you riff on this because something I have come to the conclusion in the last month, which I'm extremely disturbed by. I brought up on Rogue, and he didn't really kind of get into it very much.

[Peter Boghossian]

Oh, I saw that. I saw that. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Well, so during COVID there was. Mark Zuckerberg's job is to keep you watching Facebook as much as possible, by his own admission. And you can't blame him. That's his gig. He wants you on Facebook. He doesn't want you outside, you know, having fun. So during COVID we were all, and I will use the word we, in such an agitated state. Everyone's glued to their screens. First because you couldn't leave the house, but also because. What's the latest news? Where's it going? What's the new. New declarations, what we have to do, what we don't have to do. So forth. The COVID regime, large, by and large, went away. That data did not. And people like Zuckerberg, Elon, all, you know, all these other social media magnates, they have information on how to keep your head glued to that app or that website as much as possible, as is their job. And it seems very clear to me that part of that was you got to get people riled up. Covid was not, you know, oh, a puppy's friends with a duck. It was death and imprisonment and so on and so forth. And to your point, one of the reasons why I think a lot of people are following some of those voices is because they give the viewer a reason, a rationalization for that agitation. And it's an evolutionary thing, because that's what feeds the algorithm.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, I think that's true. You know, I've been spending a lot of time. I've been playing around with AI agents, and I've been spending time on Grok and it is amazing how it flatters you, right? And I was you. It validates you. It flatters you. And I was aware of that when I actually, I was in Austin. I was at one of these Illuminati parties. And the, the, the, the. That's where I first became aware of that, that idea. And ever since I was been aware of it, I'm like, now I try. I wrote a, a prompt that I have to paste every time in Grok. I. I'll send it to you. It's like, don't flatter me. Say, I don't know if I don't know. Double check your responses, answer with skepticism. I put a tweet out about it recently. But, but, but that's literally. You're right. That's the job. That's Zuckerberg. Everybody's job is to keep you on the algorithm, is to keep you engaged in the attention economy. And my time on my phone is just shocking. I'll tell you what it is. It's like nine hours a day, but most of that is work. But my time on my laptop is, is minimal at this point. But I don't know, I guess you could take many roads with that. Is that the problem of capitalism? Is that the problem of. We're not. We haven't evolutionarily, we haven't adopted the right skills to deal with these, these tools. Jonathan Heights, written about that pretty extensively with social media and young kids. So I don't think that it's. I also don't think that it's total time on your phone. I think it's what you do. So I listen to a lot of podcasts, I watch a lot of what I consider to be educational videos. I ask Rock to teach me about things. So I don't think necessarily the time on your phone is bad. But, but I do think that the capture, particularly for young girls and, and, and Gad has written about this, Gad said particularly for young girls is very, very dangerous. So I just think it's something that we need to be mindful of.

[Michael Malice]

The time is bad if it's being used to keep you agitated. That's my point. If it was, we're nine hours a day watching how to be Friends with each Other and hey, you know what? Here's a, Here's a little tweet. Boom. Hey, there's an old lady down the street and she broke her hip. Hey, maybe you could give her a pie. Great. Like this. I'm making the world a better place at no cost to myself. That would be. But that's not what's happening. There's an old lady down the street who's not wearing a mask. What can you do to get her fired? So. Or whatever the now she's a racist or she's this or that. That is where we are. And that is something that, once it gets personalized, people watching this know, like, if I'm a cereal company, one of the things they would do is they would create a mock supermarket or maybe they'd use a real one, and they put their product on the shelf where it would be, and they would have people with glasses on and you could watch their eyes to see how they shop. And so my AI or your AI five minutes from now is going to know me better than you or I know ourselves, and it's going to know what it needs to feed me, to keep my eyes on the screen. And it's very clear that humans are drawn to that. If there's a disaster, like, what's going on over there? Oh, if there's a wildflower. Oh, that's pretty. But I'm not going to be staring at that wildflower for 10 minutes.

[Peter Boghossian]

So what do you do about it?

[Michael Malice]

Kill everyone. Now,

[Peter Boghossian]

I'm not advocating that.

[Michael Malice]

I have absolutely. I feel like I'm an oncologist because I feel like I've diagnosed something, and then people are like, doc, what are you going to do? I'm like, I'm just a diagnostician, and I am very scared because I think the AI is moving faster than the conversations about it. Now, in some ways, that's a good thing because I'm not a government person. And if the government's regulating the AI, it's going to serve the state. But on the other hand, I was on Gutfeld. You've done that show as well, I believe. Yeah. And they were talking about. Sam Altman was saying that ChatGPT is now going to have erotica. And they're all laughing. Oh, what does erotica mean? Blah, blah. They meant sexting. And I go, guys, in 1981, John Hinckley got the idea in his head that Jody Foster would love him if he took out the president and thereby turning her away from men forever. Point being what? There's 350 billion people in America. When Grok tells you, hey, I'd love you a lot more if you took out Fauci or Trump or Kamala or Fauci or Ken Paxton or Fauci there, you and I already have big enough audiences that we have to deal with like say what was his name? Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss had this great 10 point article about what happens when you get famous. He goes, look, let's suppose you have a million followers. He goes, out of a million people, you're going to have 10 who are literally full blown insane. He doesn't mean like, oh, they're kind of quirky, they think you married, they think you're married to them like that level. So when it's 350 million and there's some hate object and the AI is personalized to tell you I'd love you a lot more John Hinckley, then what happens?

[Peter Boghossian]

So knowing that we both know that, has that changed our behavior?

[Michael Malice]

You mean me and you?

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, I mean it hasn't changed my behavior. I'm, I'm. Well, I talked to my AI constantly. I'm, you know, using AI agents. I'm.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I've always been in favor. I'm not gonna take out any sorry feds. Like I'm not going to take a shot at any political figure. I guess that makes me a hypocrite as an anarchist. But I, I look at Charlie, I mean I don't think Charlie Kirk's murder would have happened without social media ginning up levels of hatred toward the out group. That had not been the norm fairly recently.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, and then you're also talking about Elon wants to make non biased AI. I'm not sure that's entirely possible. But certainly ChatGPT is far more biased than Grok and people have done that experiment over and over again. And then you have a kind of God that you're asking questions to. Funny. A buddy of mine sent me his manuscript and he asked me to write a forward to it. And I said dude, this is just, this is just shit. I was totally honest with him.

[Michael Malice]

That's a good thing about Peter. That's the perfect forward. This is just shit.

[Peter Boghossian]

But you know, that's the great thing. I'm 59. Every single person in my life who's my friend, like I know they're my friend because they know exactly who I am and what I think and I know who they are. Like, nobody's bullshitting everybody, anybody. Everybody's like on the same page. But I said, how could you have created this? And he's like, what are you talking about? You know, my AI told me it was great and I just thought that was so interesting. It was just, it is just a flattery machine. And I see it even though I put it in A prompt. Don't flatter me. It still flatters me. But it's. But you know, we want to be flattered. So. So I think that's a disposition that one has to get over.

[Michael Malice]

Are you like me in that you're low in agreeableness and high in openness?

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, I think. I think so. I think so. But I think people think that you're higher in agreeableness if you're better at listening.

[Michael Malice]

I. For people to understand watching this agreeableness means more you go along to get along as opposed to you're picking fights for no reason being. It's not like you're just. You're being an ass. It's just like you have to be convinced of why something is right or wrong as opposed to. I'm just going to do this because everyone else is doing it.

[Commercial Announcer]

It.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. And here's. If you're younger, here's the best secret in life I'm going to give you right now. Start being utterly forthright in your speech. And the consequence of that is you will. Or they'll kick themselves to the curb. Your relationships will be better, higher quality, far more honest, more loving, more wholesome. The nothing good will, nothing bad will come of it. The more forthright you are, the better it is, you know, but that doesn't mean you have to reveal everything if you know, if it doesn't mean you have to reveal every dastardly thought. But the more honest you are in a relationship with somebody and the more you tell people what's on your mind and what you're thinking about, the more they'll know you, who. Who you really are. And then, you know, when you develop a loving relationship with that person, you'll know it's authentic.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. So I'm going to co sign every word you just said and I will add to that. There's this great Beach Boy song I've never heard called you need mess of help to stand alone. And when you're that kind of person, like you just said, when you're in a tough spot, first of all, your brain's going to tell you to go into a cave. Don't listen to it. When you reach out to people you've had these relationships with, they will trip over themselves to be able to be there for you because you haven't asked them for that before. You haven't been annoying and you're someone who they know they can rely on because you've always been forced. So I had a friend a couple of weeks ago, I was like I just need to get out of the house. He was like, I called him, he didn't pick up. I found somebody else. And then he called me. Back goes, I was going to break plans for you. This is an opportunity for me because now I get to be there because you've supported me during a dark time, 100% 10 years ago. But it's hard when you're young to have that perspective because people come out of the education system, which heavily encourages people to get along and, and not rock the boat. Especially when you're starting a job, you don't have the power to kind of run your mouth. So there's this cost to it socially and professionally. But this really works long, or at least it has for me.

[Peter Boghossian]

So I'd like to introduce a new concept to our conversation, the idea of framing. And I think this might be the midway point between all people want to know it's true and people don't want to know it's true, they just want to do. It's expedient, et cetera. And framing is how those truths are presented to people. Sure. How those. So, so I do jiu jitsu pretty seriously. And I had a guy on me two nights ago who was 215. He was a professional fighter. This guy was, he was a, I think he's a second degree black belt. I mean, this guy's a fucking killer. And at the end of the round, I lost the round, I lost twice in six minutes. He said to me, he was sweating and breathing hard. He said, I really had to work hard to get you. Now he could have just said, I mean, I got you or what? I mean, I don't know, I'm 60 and he's, you know, like 32 or something. But both of those statements would have been true. But I think the way that we frame truth is very important. The way we frame statements and how people interpret those. And I think that is also what you spoke of, is the narrative component to truth.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Peter Boghossian]

And so there's a way to frame, there's a way to frame that to make it more palatable to people. I, I also want to throw in another thing that, you know, I was thinking about.

[Michael Malice]

Wait, before. Let me just add one point to what you just said, which is you see this, a lot of social media, you're hearing something I'm not saying. Like I always say, human beings don't run a true false filter. They run an us them filter. And if I, I said this to Andrew Schultz show. If I said to you, I think Trump's a dullard, and he's terrible, and the economy sucks under him, and. And I'm embarrassed. He's president. I'm a Trump supporter, because until and unless I say he's the worst thing that's ever happened to America and his existential of the world, I might as well be supporting him. That's how a lot of these people think. So it's.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, that's the framing. That's right. That's exactly correct. That's exactly the framing. And so how do you frame that loss? Oh, I had to work really hard to get you. How do you frame your victory? Or how do you frame. You know, just. How do you frame things in your life? You know, I'm also thinking, do I look fat on that dress? It breaks down.

[Michael Malice]

You look great in it.

[Peter Boghossian]

Well, thank you. Coming from you, because I was really worried. About what. About how you thought I looked. So that's really good. A primary concern on my mind.

[Michael Malice]

Absolutely. Stellar.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, thank you. You know, it's interesting. I was on a call with a guy the other day, and it's funny. It's like when you have gray hair on your head. You've probably noticed this and you're a guy. People ask me for advice all the time. Like, I'm constantly. I am. I'm constantly asked for advice about shit. And I pretty much tell everybody the same. The same thing. I give the same advice to almost 100% of the people. I tell them the following. Diet, sleep, exercise. For diet, cut back on your sugars, probably intermittent fast sleep. Try to get as many hours of healthy sleep, high REM sleep. I wear this little band here. Exercise. Try to exercise to absolute exhaustion and failure. Six, seven days a week. Six days a week, minimum. And because if you don't do that, you really can't make decisions about anything. Like, your ability to make judgments is severely compromised. And every single person I've said that to, particularly if a parent dies or you have some kind of tragedy in your life, every. That has resonated with every single person with whom I've spoken. And I've never. I never even give specific advice anymore because I don't. I don't see there's a point to it.

[Michael Malice]

So there's two. The reason I laughed is there was a Seinfeld episode, and I just looked it up to get it exactly right. From 1994, where George's mom, Estelle, was talking to someone on the phone named Donna Chang, and Donna Chang was giving her advice. And then she met her and she was white. And she's like, you're not a Chinese woman. And this changes everything because she. She was expecting this ancient Chinese wisdom, and it's just some white ladies. Like, I feel like. I feel like I've been duped, you know, so the gray hair definitely is part of it. To your point, there's a great article by Josh OLSEN, it's like 30 years old at this point called I will not read your screenplay. And his premise is, here's how it works. I won't ask you to do my teeth or fix my car or be my lawyer for free. And you don't ask me to be a screen read your script for free. Because you don't want advice. You want validation. You want me to tell you that you have just not been discovered, that you have what it takes, that you're great. Because if I sat you down and broke this down, like I have to do with every one of my scripts, you're going to say, I'm uppity, and who do you think you are?

[Peter Boghossian]

And I.

[Michael Malice]

Because in your framework, you think it's pretty good, so I also do not. That's why when you were saying should earlier, I hate that word because I also. First of all, people I don't think are receptive to advice, and I also don't feel like I'm really in a position to give advice without knowing that other person's context. Unless I'm speaking broadly. Such as? Such as with sleep. That's something I do feel comfortable speaking about.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. I wonder if that. If that same thing applies with matters of fact. Like, is there a matter of fact that there's a screenplay? Is one screenplay is better than another? Or is there a matter of fact that.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. So. So if that's the case and someone doesn't want to hear what's true, that speaks legions about their character. Sure. But that will mean they'll never improve.

[Michael Malice]

But. Or they might improve their character and thereby improve, you know, the ability to receive criticism.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. Okay, but I'm saying, like, if you. If you only want to hear what validates and affirms you, you'll never write a good screenplay.

[Michael Malice]

That's correct.

[Peter Boghossian]

So I guess we then need to help people. We need to help nurture the disposition that criticism is good.

[Michael Malice]

No, we help. Need to discourage people from any screenplays because most of them can't ever do it.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. I've actually written a few screenplays that haven't gotten accepted. So I've read them.

[Michael Malice]

They're wonderful. They're Wonderful, Peter.

[Peter Boghossian]

They're so.

[Michael Malice]

Thank you.

[Peter Boghossian]

Your approbation is everything to me. But you're not going to get in my pants, even though I look good in this dress.

[Michael Malice]

It's a dress, not pants. You look terrible in the pants. The dress is a different story, folks. I have been a sheath underwear model for years now. I wear it every single day. I swear by it. The great thing about sheath is that it has two pouches for both parts of your male anatomy. I know, I know, I know. The first time you try it on, you're like, what is this? In that voice? And from then on, you're like, this is the most comfortable underwear I will ever own. I will also read to you out loud the copy that they sent me because this makes no sense. But what else doesn't make sense is not wearing sheath underwear. So here's verbatim the copy I got. I am happy. Talk about a favorite advertiser. On the you're welcome with Mike Malice. I am talking about sheath underwear. Every time you hear my voice or or is capitalized, if you were able to see my face, it would be obvious that I'm wearing a pair of my sheath boxer briefs. I particularly love the dual pouches, which is in boldface for some reason that keep your man parts in quotes separated. It is a game changer. Look, here's the deal. Sheath is the best underwear you'll ever have. It's so fun. It keeps you cool in the heat. We have a problem here in Austin. You don't want to be all swampy down there. I swear by it. Wearing it exclusively for years. They also have T shirts. I wear them to the gym. They're a little stretchy and nice fabric. They've got hoodies, which you will not find in my home. I'm not Mark Zuckerberg 2021. Here's what you got to do. Go to sheath.com promo code Malice. Get 20% off. That's M A L I C E sheet dot com. Use promo code Malice. Wear the same underwear I do. The best underwear you'll ever have. And then you will be happy. Talk about a favorite advertiser. On the you're welcome with Mike Malice. That's right. I am talking about sheath underwear.

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[Michael Malice]

let's get back to the show. So let's, let's. Let me get serious again for a moment. You know when you wrote your book how to have Impossible, do you agree with my perception that conversations have gotten more difficult to be had? I'll bring up an example that's recently happened to me. I was on Rogan. We were discussing the Epstein files. I've had people from all over the spectrum, so to speak, on this issue on my show because I'm not reading the 3 million emails. And he said, okay, it's either it's Mossad or it's CIA or somebody else. And I go, I heard it was Russia because there was a front. There's a headline on Drudge, which he pulled up, or he, sorry, he looked it up, where it's, it's a Moscow involvement. And George found data. And then I got, oh, you're trying to change the subject. You're CIA, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm just literally saying what I saw. And I was surprised to have seen that. But this is one of those issues. Trump's another one of those issues where it seems that the conversation literally is impossible because if you disagree in any way, you're actually a child toucher.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. I mean, there's no question we're in a, a particularly difficult period to have conversations, even when I was growing up. I'm not saying historically, but in the last few years in particular, it's maybe 2011, 2010. I think that there's been a little easement. I think those, those conversations are more lubricated now because the binding of society is somewhat loosened, but it's still incredibly different. I mean, I look on social media now and people are openly talking about things they'd never Talk about before immigration, Islamic immigration. I even hear some people talking about race and iq. People are talking about things they haven't or they couldn't have talked about a few years ago. But, you know, we go, Reid and I go around the world and we have conversations, kind of impossible conversations with people about really morally tricky, if not morally nasty issues. And one of the things that constantly amazes me is that the reason that people adopt positions are for what we talked about before because they want to belong and they want to signal to community or they, they adopting the position because they. It's a moral position and they think it's one they should hold. So. So that actually speaks to your point of people not really wanting to know it's true. They want to be seen as good people and feel. Feel like they're good people. And so then they'll give certain verbal behaviors. Yes, I'm actually an advocate for making your point for you and defeating myself. Trouncing myself in a debate. I should employ myself to debate myself, to beat myself down.

[Michael Malice]

This, this is. You made the decision when you put on that dress. But, but, but to the question though, if we are at a point where having come like, what advice would you, as the author of that book give to people now that we're reaching that point?

[Peter Boghossian]

Oh, yeah, it's actually, it's actually pretty easy. And I've, I've realized since the years that I've written the book, some of the things are super important and some of the things are less important. Okay? So if I were to condense everything down in a, in a formula to give people a rudimentary understanding of how to have better conversations, here's what it is. Listen to, understand. So your first order of business is to really listen to somebody. And I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you this is a skill. This is a skill that I'm still working on developing. So once you hear somebody or you think you hear someone, repeat back to them what you thought you heard. That's rap reports first rule and what you're looking for them is to say yes or especially. That's right. That's from hostage. Hostage negotiations.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, can I say something? Because I. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with everything you just said. The amount of people who lack empathy, meaning the ability to see things from other perspectives, is not only extremely high. I think a lot of people pride themselves on not being able to see other perspectives because I already know what that libtard is going to say is going to be stupid. So why am I wasting my time trying to think like they do?

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah, you don't need any of that stuff. You don't need any compassion. You don't need. All you need to do is have a curiosity about why someone believes something. That's the only thing you need. So you can think that they're an asshole. You could think that they're, you know, morally heinous. You could think that whatever you want to think. But if you have a curiosity for why someone believes that, that will be in. That will make an impossible conversation a difficult one. And then all you need is the tools to fill those. So you listen to someone, you repeat it back to them to make sure that you understand. And then the other thing is in the background. You have to realize that people hold certain views or will articulate certain views, either because that's why Mormons send people to. People in twos to the door, because they want other people to know from their verbal behavior what they think, or they'll hold the view because, as I said, because they want to be viewed as a good person. They want to feel themselves like they're a good person. I want to feel like a good person. Good people hold this belief. I hold this belief. Or frankly, to be blunt, you don't really know what happened to someone that day. Maybe they got in a fight with their boyfriend. Maybe they, you know, were running late all day and happened and put on the wrong dress. So, yeah, put on the wrong dress. Right. So, okay, so then, so, so here's. You got. You got the formula right? So you're having a conversation. Oh, so you have a difference of opinion. So tell me what you believe. So then repeat it back to them. And then the older I get, the more I realize that the best time saver imaginable is. What would it take to change your mind on that? I just jump. Before, I used to go through a bunch of questions. Now I just jump right to that, and then I explore that with them. But all the while I'm thinking to myself, is there confidence in what they claim warranted by the evidence? And if it is, maybe I should believe it, too. And if it's not, well, then, you know, what do I want to do? What's my goal in this conversation?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Peter Boghossian]

But I think that that posture of having a conversation is extremely important. Just like, hey, why does someone believe this?

[Michael Malice]

But I think.

[Peter Boghossian]

Go ahead. No, no, you go, you go.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, so young people, especially people who are intellectual.

[Peter Boghossian]

Now, I'm gonna interrupt you again. Now I'm interrupt you again. Do you see what I just did there? That's another technique that you can use. So we both spoke at the same time and we both said, you go. And then I said, you go. So that's a really good thing to let the other person know you're listening, even though I interrupted you to show

[Michael Malice]

you I wasn't listening.

[Peter Boghossian]

But that, like, one little thing right there is great when you both. It's like when you walk to a door with someone at the same time and you know, you allow them to go through. Yeah. So. So that, that's a kind of nod in a conversation that you're listening. So anyway, so go ahead.

[Michael Malice]

I. I feel like a lot of young people, especially intellectually curious young, curious young people, have the delusion that most people are intellectually curious. And what I warn them about is when you have these ideas about ideas, very many people's sense of identity or community or self is heavily interlocked with these ideas. And as soon as they see you as some kind of out out group, they will run for the hills. And that will ruin a relationship that otherwise could have been perfectly cordial. So what I'll tell people is not everyone is as interested in ideas as you do. Even the people who say they're interested in ideas. And I'll give just very quickly an example. I remember one of my first jobs, I had an issue, whatever, and my boss said, oh, I have an open door policy. And I asked my dad about this. My dad goes, look, your boss wants to think of himself as having an open door policy, and so does everybody else. But at a certain point, you're going to be the nuisance and it will not contradict his head at all. He'll be like, I do have an open door policy, but at a certain point, people take advantage of it. So he's like, you have to ask yourself, why is this person making. What does this claim mean for this person in terms of their identity? Because people often say things simply like you said, because they want to view themselves or present themselves as a certain way.

[Peter Boghossian]

Right. And my advice to those in conversations that there are certain workarounds to this. One of the workarounds is just talking about this yesterday and I gave a talk. People have really good reasons for beliefs that they have. They have really good reasons for, for defending a position because they've been in that situation where people have attacked their beliefs. But very few people, if any, have any, have any good defenses for their reasons for their beliefs. They just have defenses because Almost nobody asked them about really drills down, like deeply drills down on why they believe something. And so you can present, you can prevent a conversation from becoming impossible by focusing on the epistemology, how people know what they think they know because they won't invoke a defensive posture posture in those circumstances. So, and you, you can even have no love of ideas or you could be a complete ideologue. It, it doesn't matter for the purpose of the conversation. What matters is that you keep kind of drilling down and seeing if the reasons one has, if one has extended the confidence for their beliefs beyond the warrant of the evidence. So we have this much reason to believe, but we've believed there's an often in, in conversations about religion. So I'm holding for those who just listening, can't see, you know, people have this much confidence in the belief, but they only have this much evidence. And they'll say, well, faith is the remaining percentage it pulls. It makes the slack between what I have and it, you know, as long as they're honest about that, that, that's good. Because you always want to encourage honesty. Oh, that's the other thing. Whenever I'm in a conversation with someone and they say, I don't know, I always say, that's a great answer. Answer. It's a great response.

[Michael Malice]

And you know, you're dealing with an honest person because people are, people who are marginally intelligent, feel they need that they have to posture intelligence all the time. Whereas you and I and everyone listening to this, if you know, genuinely smart people, they will freely admit that the smartest person is ignorant of 99.9 of human knowledge and that if a smart person doesn't know something, that doesn't mean he's dumb. It's just a smart person who doesn't know something. In the same way that the world's strongest man has a weight that he cannot lift and he's still the world's strongest man.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. And I think that's the thing I try to say I don't know, whenever I don't know. And just actually it's interesting just in this conversation I tried to make your point for you. So I find myself increasing. I find myself, I find myself increasing. But that is the other thing. It's like, why, why not like, why would I want to be wedded to my own beliefs? I mean, it's just, if nothing else, it's just interesting and it's fun to try to make someone else's point for them. It's, it's called Steel Manning. I don't, it's the opposite of straw manning. I don't know how well I did in the Steel man, but, but I do think that, that it's also a kind of like meta rapport building, you know, that people like people who are like themselves. And if I'm trying to, then I'm not. I'm showing you kind of demonstrating that I'm not wedded to an idea that I have. I'm completely willing to reconsider ideas or think about it or. And I think that's a kind of disposition that we need to, that we need to spread. And that's the other thing, because you're right, because these conversations are becoming increasingly difficult. Like in gaming technology, gaming terminology, they're on hard mode. And I think that there are kind of playful ways to engage that.

[Michael Malice]

Well, give me an example. What would be a playful way to engage that?

[Peter Boghossian]

Make someone's point better than they could, or at least as good as they could, or tell them, admit that you're not entirely certain of your, your views or ask them. So, so, so here's. It's very counterintuitive, but if I say to you, you, you give like the true thing, how confident are you on a scale from 1 to 10, you'll tell me whatever I mean, I don't know, 9 that that's true. And the most people, if they place their beliefs on a scale, if they know that, that what they'll then say to you is oh, well, why aren't you a seven? But what you should do is say, well, why aren't you a 10?

[Michael Malice]

Right?

[Peter Boghossian]

Like why aren't you. Yeah, yeah, why aren't you more confident? And so basically you're asking people to give themselves the gift of doubt. You're asking people to help themselves doubt. I know it's totally counterintuitive to think that way, but when you say to someone, well, why aren't you a seven? About all people, about whatever the proposition is, all people desire to know, want truth, excuse me, or what have you, then you're actually talking, you're asking someone to make themselves more confident in what they believe.

[Michael Malice]

So you wrote a book about atheism and there's one question I want to ask you about that. One of the very big criticisms of the so called new atheism is that there is a great utility in religion. I've seen it in several people I know who were kind of louts. Then they found God and they became better husbands and better fathers. And that is in my view, regardless of the validity of the faith, if it's something that's teaching you to kind of be a good person and it's Santa Claus behind it, I really don't care at the end of the day, and I don't regard myself as an atheist. How do you counter that criticism of atheism?

[Peter Boghossian]

I'm not sure that criticism should be countered because I think. Okay, in many cases, that's certainly the case. It's certainly true. It's certainly true. On an individual level.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Okay.

[Peter Boghossian]

Of course, all of those people, I worry that they suffer from some, some sort of. Some sort of psychopathy. Right. You would need to believe. What did Hitchens say? In a celestial dictator watching your every move, I would just become that you wouldn't do a good thing just because you're a good person or because it should be done or what have you. But on a social level, it's called the substitution hypothesis.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Peter Boghossian]

The substitution and hypothesis is the idea that, that people need certain narratives and stories and if they don't have them, they go to crazy town. Like they believe all the nonsense that we've, in the United States have just believed. And so I know that Hitchens said that religion poisons everything, but I think that the. We have a little space now since Hitchens death and we can reflect on that. And I think that the first order of business is to admit that there are certain beliefs that people would hold wholesale that are far worse than others. I, Yeah, I asked. I asked Dave Silverman, who's a good friend of mine, former president of the American Atheist. He's a great guy. I asked him, would you rather. Dave is like the most hardcore atheist I've ever met in my life. Like, he's truly, truly like. And that's coming from me saying that. And I said, I said, would you rather your daughter be an atheist or a benign Christian? And he thought about it for a while or no, I think I said a woke atheist or benign Christian. He thought about it for a while and he said, a benign Christian.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. How could you not?

[Peter Boghossian]

Which is an astonishing statement. And I think right now we're so pervaded socially and culturally by egalitarianism.

[Michael Malice]

Right?

[Peter Boghossian]

And you know, remember all of those things, they're moral pronouncements. They're not empirical phenomena. They're not ways that we can measure or judge or, or like, you know, diversity is our strength. That's a moral proclamation. It's not an empirical statement. And so I think we, we're, we're so drowning in this idea of egalitarianism, all religions are the same.

[Michael Malice]

All.

[Peter Boghossian]

Everything is the same. All cultures are the same. Epistemological relativism, it's just nonsense. It's far better off for society if people hold, if the vast swath of the population hold benign delusions than if they hold malevolent delusions. I mean, that just should be obvious to anyone. Malevolent delusions.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. If all our neighbors were Ned Flanders, we'd be in a utopia. Maybe it'd be corny, but it would be heaven on earth. You would have no crime. Your house, everyone's houses. The kids are raised good. You know, it's. It'll be compared to what we have now. It will be wonderful. Okay, folks, for just five bucks, you could join the supporting listeners [e-mail] where you could send in questions to the guests.

[James Altucher]

Hey, it's James Altucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, bestselling writer, stand up comic, and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altucher show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows, and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interview, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking, and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Altucher show.

[Michael Malice]

Let's get back to the show. Bill Clinton was famously called the first black president by Toni Morrison. Clarence Thomas is regularly referred to as not being really black. There was contention about whether Kamala Harris is black.

[Peter Boghossian]

I want to talk about this. This is so important. So this is a trap that many people fall into. So what you just articulated is very, very important. You and me and other people, Reed sitting over there, other people think that this is a problem. But the only reason that you and I think that this is a problem is because we buy into certain first principles. Like we buy into the principle of non contradiction. So for us, if something Contradicts itself. It's a problem, I don't think, for these people. I don't think. Oh, you don't think it's a problem if someone contradicts themselves?

[Michael Malice]

No, because I always point out they use language to manipulate, not to communicate. So you have to understand. Okay, yeah, the person.

[Peter Boghossian]

Okay, then we're fine.

[Michael Malice]

Saying things like that isn't actually believing anything he says. It's what do I need to say to get you do what I want.

[Peter Boghossian]

But yeah, no, that's right.

[Michael Malice]

They're not, they're perfectly comfortable being incoherent even within their own framework.

[Peter Boghossian]

Yeah. So, okay, so we're on the same page about that. You know, when, when someone says, well, why hasn't it haven't. And they put all these left wing people spoken out about the massacres in Iran, you know, what is it like? I don't even know. I think it's, it's hard to get data, obviously. But the last thing I looked, I'm guessing it's 40,000 people were massacred by the regime. Yeah. I mean, and they're, and then they'll put like, well, where is Greta? Or where's. Well, who gives a. About these people? They don't participate in the same framework as you. So why would you expect that they would? It's just, it's just a weird way to think. You know, Faisal, I mentioned Faisal before, but Faisal said something super interesting to me. I asked him once why. I understand why isn't. Why isn't it that Islamism, that Islamists wouldn't be for secular governments, because then they could go and practice their delusions or their religion or do whatever they wanted to do. You could. And he said something so interesting to me, it's like it helped me gain one IQ point. He said, they don't want that. It's not that they want to practice their religion, which it is, but it's that they want you to practice their religion. So they're against secularism for that reason. So you can't just assume that these systems universalize to people who don't buy into the system in the first place. I guess it's vaguely akin to when I was in New York. Some guys when I was walking in grad school had a picture of Jesus and they put him on the sidewalk. And you know, when, when people walked over, I think it was like some, some black power group or something. I can't remember. It was a long time ago. And then my friend who was an atheist didn't Step on the picture. And I said, oh, why didn't you step on the picture? I thought you were an atheist. And he said. He said, because I didn't want to give it power over me.

[Michael Malice]

Okay?

[Peter Boghossian]

I just. I just. I just don't want to buy into the system at all. And I just thought that was such an interesting response to that.

[Michael Malice]

Well, to what Faisal had to say. There's this great quote by Frank Herbert, which I don't think is actually original to him, where he says, I'm. When I'm weaker than you, I ask for freedom because that is according to your principles. And when I'm stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.

[Peter Boghossian]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

So it's you. Like, at the moment, I'll say, oh, I want freedom of religion. But when I have the numbers, it's like, okay, that's cool that we're not doing that anymore. And that's the game plan, and it's kind of played out over and over. Peter, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

[Peter Boghossian]

My favorite part of the interview is a great question. My favorite part of the interview was seeing with how you. Seeing with how. Seeing how you processed my making arguments for your case against my own position.

[Michael Malice]

You are welcome.

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[Peter Boghossian]

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