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Peter Boghossian - Episode #407 - "YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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Peter Boghossian - Episode #407

"YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice

Wed Mar 18 2026

Summary

YOUR WELCOME with Michael Malice
Episode #407: Peter Boghossian
Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Michael Malice
Guest: Peter Boghossian

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Malice welcomes philosopher and author Peter Boghossian for a wide-ranging, fast-paced discussion on the state of modern discourse, the tension between truth and utility in human motivation, the dangers (and seductions) of social media, and the complexities of ideology—from geopolitics to interpersonal relationships. True to form, Malice’s sharp wit and dry humor guide a candid and often provocative exchange about human nature, belief, narrative, and the modern information landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Iranian Crisis & U.S. Foreign Policy

[00:48–09:18]

Malice, recovering from food poisoning, opens with his concern about the U.S. and Israel bombing Iran, feeling both hope for Iranians and anxiety over the region’s instability.
Boghossian highlights Western leftist factions who, he claims, paradoxically side with Iran’s religious authorities against their own liberal values:

“They have some bizarre support of these pre-medieval religious maniacs.” (Boghossian, 03:22)
Both hosts express skepticism toward U.S. foreign policy, highlighting historical betrayals of local populations (e.g., Kurds, Afghans) and lack of exit strategies:

“US Foreign policy has often been extremely cynical behind the scenes.” (Malice, 03:57)
Concern over “regime change” fallout—regimes can always get worse, not better. Malice laments the unpredictability and cruelty of international interventions.
Both agree on personal admiration for Iranian-Americans, noting their high education and civic contribution.
Boghossian jokes about his inability to offer expert commentary:

“I just don’t think anybody should listen to anything I have to say on it.” (Boghossian, 08:25)
Humorous exchange on voicing opinions as non-experts.

Malice: “Well, that's going to be kind of tricky for this podcast.” (09:18)

Why We Listen to Unqualified Opinions

[09:44–13:43]

Discussion turns to why figures like Greta Thunberg and Cenk Uygur command attention—Malice argues people follow political figures as tribal signifiers, akin to sports teams.
Boghossian warns that even criticism amplifies unworthy voices:

“Every criticism you make, you’re just making that person’s platform grow. So why would you do that?” (Boghossian, 10:11)
The anatomy of political fandom is dissected—most people don their favorite identity “merch” not for truth, but for social belonging.

Human Beings: Truth-Seekers or Narrative-Seekers?

[12:12–35:24]

Boghossian wants to believe that, at our core, people want to know what’s true:

“Aristotle’s metaphysics… all people desire to know.” (Boghossian, 17:30)
Malice strenuously disagrees, arguing most people avoid truths that disrupt comfort:

“People desperately want to avoid knowing what’s true. They want to know what is of utility for them…” (Malice, 17:52)
Lively analogies ensue (e.g., the “did I turn off the stove?” scenario and the classic “Does this dress make me look fat?” dilemma), with both hosts using personal and psychological examples to probe the human aversion to uncomfortable truth.
The discussion references real-life situations—post-Stasi East Germany (“the File”)—where people deliberately avoided painful knowledge:

“Every single former East German had to ask themselves, do I want to know who was reporting on me?” (Malice, 29:51)
Malice admits he might choose ignorance to avoid trauma; Boghossian stresses his drive to know the full truth, even if it means ending relationships:

“I just would want to know. I would want to know as much as I can.” (Boghossian, 33:20)
Both explore how social context, trauma, or repression shapes whether we seek or avoid knowledge.

Social Media, Attention Economy, and the Flattery Machine

[36:15–45:13]

Malice notes post-COVID changes: people now “need” agitation, and social media companies exploit this for engagement:

“You got to get people riled up…that is what feeds the algorithm.” (Malice, 37:06)
Boghossian highlights how AI and recommendation systems flatter and validate users, keeping us hooked:

“It’s just a flattery machine. And I see it—even though I put [Grok] in a prompt ‘don’t flatter me’, it still flatters me. But you know, we want to be flattered…” (Boghossian, 43:50)
The hosts express deep concern about the implications when AI can know users better than they know themselves and personalize manipulative feedback.
Humorous, dark solution:

Malice (jokingly): “Kill everyone. Now.” (40:44)

Radical Honesty, Framing, and Building True Relationships

[45:13–49:24]

Boghossian extols the virtues of being utterly forthright, especially in close relationships:

“Start being utterly forthright in your speech. And the consequence of that is: you will—or they’ll kick themselves to the curb. Your relationships will be better, higher quality, far more honest, more loving, more wholesome.” (45:01)
Malice co-signs this advice, noting that deep honesty forges life-long supportive networks, even if it’s socially costly in youth or early jobs.
On “framing”—differences in how truths are presented and received—Boghossian suggests it’s key to understanding why two people can interpret the same facts differently.

How to Have ‘Impossible Conversations’ in an Age of Polarization

[56:23–69:45]

Malice observes that certain public topics (e.g., Epstein, Trump) are now “impossible conversations”: even a minor disagreement is seen as monstrous.
Boghossian agrees but notes that, paradoxically, some formerly-taboo subjects are becoming more discussible.
Condensing his book’s advice:

“Listen to, understand…Once you hear somebody or you think you hear someone, repeat back to them what you thought you heard…what you’re looking for them is to say ‘yes’ or especially ‘that’s right’.” (Boghossian, 59:24)
He emphasizes curiosity over empathy: “All you need to do is have a curiosity about why someone believes something.”
Key practical question:

“What would it take to change your mind on that?” (Boghossian, 61:00)
Both stress the importance of steelmanning others’ points, celebrating “I don’t know” as an honest answer.

The Utility of Belief and the Role of Religion

[69:06–72:15]

Malice raises the argument that, regardless of truth, religion can make people better—shouldn’t this pragmatic benefit matter?
Boghossian admits that some people “need certain narratives and stories and if they don’t have them, they go to crazy town,” distinguishing between benign and malignant delusions.
Both agree that society is better off with “benign delusions” if the alternative is more destructive ideology.
“It’s far better off for society if people hold benign delusions than if they hold malevolent delusions.” (Boghossian, 71:58)

When Contradiction Isn’t a Bug but a Feature

[73:53–76:49]

Malice notes how public figures’ identities are selectively framed for political convenience (e.g. Bill Clinton as the “first black president” vs. Clarence Thomas “not really black”).
Boghossian asserts:

“The only reason that you and I think that this is a problem is because we buy into certain first principles, like we buy into the principle of noncontradiction.” (Boghossian, 73:53)
Malice:

“They use language to manipulate, not to communicate.” (74:25)
Boghossian relates how some ideological actors want not only their freedom, but dominance—citing a point from Faisal al Mutar.

Final Reflections

[77:09–77:40]

Boghossian’s favorite part of the exchange?

“Seeing how you processed my making arguments for your case against my own position.” (77:09)
Malice: “You are welcome.” (77:27)

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Western activism for Iran:

“They have some bizarre support of these pre-medieval religious maniacs.” (Boghossian, 03:22)
On narrative over truth:

“I don’t think human beings are truth seeking animals. I think they are narrative seeking animals.” (Malice, 12:12)
On amplifying fools:

“Every criticism you make, you’re just making that person's platform grow.” (Boghossian, 10:11)
On Stasi files and difficult truths:

“Every single former East German had to ask themselves, do I want to know what they had on me? And do I want to know who was reporting on me?” (Malice, 29:51)
On forthrightness in relationships:

“Start being utterly forthright in your speech…Your relationships will be better, higher quality, far more honest, more loving.” (Boghossian, 45:01)
On the role of framing:

“The way that we frame truth is very important. The way we frame statements and how people interpret those.” (Boghossian, 48:15)
On the impossibility of some conversations:

“It seems that the conversation literally is impossible because if you disagree in any way, you’re actually a child toucher.” (Malice, 57:22)
Advice for better conversations:

“Listen to, understand…repeat back to them…What would it take to change your mind on that?” (Boghossian, 59:24/61:00)
On the utility of religious belief:

“It’s far better off for society if people hold benign delusions than if they hold malevolent delusions.” (Boghossian, 71:58)
On contradiction in activist discourse:

“They use language to manipulate, not to communicate.” (Malice, 74:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Iran & U.S. Foreign Policy: 00:48–09:18
Tribalism & Political Voices: 09:44–13:43
Truth vs. Utility in Human Motivation: 12:12–35:24
Social Media & Flattery Machine: 36:15–45:13
Radical Honesty & Framing: 45:13–49:24
Impossible Conversations & Techniques: 56:23–69:45
Religion’s Utility & Delusion: 69:06–72:15
Contradiction & Manipulation in Discourse: 73:53–76:49
Episode Wrap & Reflections: 77:09–77:40

Tone and Flow

The episode seamlessly entwines intellectual humility, philosophical inquiry, and dark, sometimes acerbic humor. Malice’s skepticism and sardonic style are balanced by Boghossian’s philosopher’s earnestness and willingness to argue against himself. The conversation, while wide-ranging, stays tightly focused on the challenge of meaning-making (and meaning-distortion) in the modern world.

For New Listeners

If you haven’t tuned in, this episode offers a masterclass in philosophical sparring, debunking comforting illusions, and practical advice for surviving and thriving in a culture defined by noise, narrative, and rapidly shifting truths. Expect both rigorous argument and biting wit.

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Transcript

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Michael Malice (0:48)

Grocery outlet bargain market Folks, my new graphic novel Unwanted a tall tale of the old western new wave in is out for pre order now. I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it out@unwantedbook.com. Good afternoon. Michael Vallis here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. We have with us a guest I've been trying for months to get in the show. He's extremely busy and extremely interesting. Peter Boghossian. Peter, you co authored with James Lindsay a book which I read and enjoyed called how to have Impossible Conversations. You also wrote a manual for creating atheists. Your former academic who has been very disturbed by the liberal illiberal trends in academia. One of the things before we started talking, you asked me how I was doing and I said not so hot because last week I went to a maha event here in Austin. Afterwards we all went out to a restaurant. I got food poisoning, which as far as diseases go, it's one of the better ones to have because I knew, all right, a couple of days I'm going to be fine. So as I'm like, nap, wake up, nap, wake up, you know, trots. And then I wake up Saturday and the US is bomb and Israel are bombing Iran and I'm looking at delirious. I'm like, I can't deal with this right now. And I am very concerned with the Iranian situation even at the same time being very hopeful for the Persian people who are awesome and badass and. And I'm like, peter, I'm not doing so great. And you said, yeah, you're probably talking to the exact wrong person because I'm with you. So sir, the floor is. And by the way, we're recording this on Friday, it's going to be dated by the time it drops because the news is happening so quickly. And every day it's something else. It's like yesterday, I don't know if people saw this, Trump was tweeting out that no gender mutilation on children except with the written consent of the parents. And it was like, oh, I, I can't anymore. Please, I've said enough.

Peter Boghossian (5:03)

So the name of that group was Neville Roy Shingham. And they're funding both of the sides. They're, they're funding pro, if you can believe this, pro Iranian regime. And, and the protests in the United States, I'm not sure, you know, from one of the holdovers of the Powell Doctrine, overwhelming force, clear exit strategy. I'm not sure we have a clear exit strategy. I think that a lot of this is just hope that. And I agree with the hope, and I'm sure you agree with the hope. Hope that the Iranians will build their future. I'm not, not sure under a monarchy is the way to go, but I'm again no expert in this whatsoever. I am deeply disturbed about the possibility of American troops on the ground. I don't know. I don't know the other. I don't. I don't know the option if the Iranian people don't wake up and revolt. I remember I was just reading something about being on a train and women were not wearing a hijab and one of the religious police came by and fortunately we struck the main, the main building of the religious police and they, the women shouted at the guy and kicked him off the train. Why did they didn't throw him off of a moving train is utterly beyond me. I would have been, I would have completely thrown him off the train while it was moving. So if they're not even willing to do that, I don't know. But I do know that Iranian Americans who come, Iranians who come to America, by and large incredibly well educated, lower incarceration rates, higher contributions to the treasury, they tend to be model citizens. Oh, and just as a parenthetical, every single Iranian I have ever met in my whole life, without exception, and that is a considerable number, have been extraordinarily knowledgeable about politics. So if you ever get in an Uber or something and the driver's Iranian, just start talking about politics. It's really uncanny. But. But I like you, I wish the Iranian people well. I have no access to the Trump administration. My only hope is that they can overthrow these maniacs is as quickly as possible. Actually, I have a hidden hope and that they all swing from lampposts for what they've done to the people for the last decades. But I don't know. I don't want troops on the ground like yourself. But I do think in balance, I'm against military options, but this is probably the right way to go.

Michael Malice (23:50)

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Peter Boghossian (60:34)

Yeah, you don't need any of that stuff. You don't need any compassion. You don't need. All you need to do is have a curiosity about why someone believes something. That's the only thing you need. So you can think that they're an asshole. You could think that they're, you know, morally heinous. You could think that whatever you want to think. But if you have a curiosity for why someone believes that, that will be in. That will make an impossible conversation a difficult one. And then all you need is the tools to fill those. So you listen to someone, you repeat it back to them to make sure that you understand. And then the other thing is in the background. You have to realize that people hold certain views or will articulate certain views, either because that's why Mormons send people to. People in twos to the door, because they want other people to know from their verbal behavior what they think, or they'll hold the view because, as I said, because they want to be viewed as a good person. They want to feel themselves like they're a good person. I want to feel like a good person. Good people hold this belief. I hold this belief. Or frankly, to be blunt, you don't really know what happened to someone that day. Maybe they got in a fight with their boyfriend. Maybe they, you know, were running late all day and happened and put on the wrong dress. So, yeah, put on the wrong dress. Right. So, okay, so then, so, so here's. You got. You got the formula right? So you're having a conversation. Oh, so you have a difference of opinion. So tell me what you believe. So then repeat it back to them. And then the older I get, the more I realize that the best time saver imaginable is. What would it take to change your mind on that? I just jump. Before, I used to go through a bunch of questions. Now I just jump right to that, and then I explore that with them. But all the while I'm thinking to myself, is there confidence in what they claim warranted by the evidence? And if it is, maybe I should believe it, too. And if it's not, well, then, you know, what do I want to do? What's my goal in this conversation?