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- [00:00]
Michael Malice
Why have I asked my H Vac
- [00:01]
Commercial Announcer
guy I found on angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? I was so amazed at how he replaced our air ducts, I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.
- [00:09]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
I think we should call a Dr. Angie.
- [00:11]
Michael Malice
The one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
- [00:18]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive you you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [01:07]
Michael Malice
Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. This is going to be a fun one because we have a guest on the show, one perhaps the first guest in your welcome history who's more of a smug twat than me. That is like climbing Everest. We have with us a very fun young man by the. This is his real name, Dr. Charles Cornish Dale. You probably know him better as Raw Egg Nationalist. You're one of the biggest voices in the online. I hate the term manosphere because I feel it's it, it's like speaks to like people telling 12 year olds how to pick up girls, but people who discuss masculinity and intersection. Masculinity, politics and culture. I think that's fair to say. Rog Nationalist is your online hand that people know you more as your last book is called the Last Men, Liberalism and the Death of Masculinity. You were here in Austin. We had such a fun time shooting the shit. I don't even know where to start because. Let's talk a bit about your book because I feel like discussing masculinity in a right of center space. There's so many mousetraps people have in their heads because they have this binary right good, left bad. I think a lot of things that are regarded as masculine traits are being promoted very heavily by leftists nowadays. Specifically aggression, destruction of your enemy, domination. All these so called toxic masculine traits they have no problem promoting and endorsing and using. But please tell people the premise of your book and why they should pick it up.
- [02:48]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Well, listen, actually you know that's, That's a, it's an interesting point though that you make actually about the left being extremely aggressive, focused on destroying their enemy. I mean that's, it's very easy actually to fall into the Trap of presenting the left as this kind of pathetic, weak spectacle, you know, like, oh, this. They're so stupid. You know, they believe all these silly things. Like, I mean, they're, they're extremely aggressive, they're extremely determined, and there's every chance that they're going to win simply, simply through, I think, understanding that actually at a kind of base level, like politics is about, you know, identifying your enemies and destroying them. And they do it very, very well. They do it a lot better. They embody those kind of masculine archetypes, virtues, attributes, whatever you want to call them, a lot better than people on the right do. And, you know, I think it probably behooves the right actually to recognize that they need to get a little bit more serious actually, about not infighting and actually, you know, destroying their enemies. But the book. So the book, the Last Men, Liberalism and the Death of Masculinity is a follow on from a Tucker Carlson documentary that I was in in 2022. So it was called the End of Men. And you may remember this, and your, your viewers may remember this. It generated a real stink in 2022. There was a trailer that featured a man sunning his testicles in the vitruvian, you know, the Vitruvian man pose atop a rock. And people like Joy Behar and George Takei and Chenk Uyghur and all these Stephen Colbert and all these kind of liberal commentators were losing their. For about five minutes anyway. But the documentary was about testosterone decline and the political implications of testosterone decline. You know, what that might actually mean for politics and society if testosterone levels are decreasing, which they are on a kind of civilizational scale at quite a worrying rate. So the book really is a follow on from that. It's about, it's an intervention in the kind of big crisis of masculinity literature, you know, so you've got. Jordan Peterson is probably the, is probably the most well known and maybe one of the most benign kind of writers in that sphere. What's wrong with young men today? Why aren't young men doing what they should be doing? Why aren't young men growing up and going out and living fulfilling lives and, you know, having families and reproducing and contributing and kind of being upstanding members of their community, whatever. But in all of this, in all of the kind of literature, Jordan Peterson even nobody talks about testosterone. It's very strange. It's a weird thing, actually. You can go to the index of any one of these books, Jordan Peterson's book, Richard Reeves Book of Boys and Men and you'll basically find no mention of testosterone, which is actually the master male hormone. Right. It's simplistic to say that men are testosterone, but testosterone governs masculine development, masculine behavior, masculine attributes in a way that doesn't seem to be appreciated. And the fact that it's declining on a civilizational scale, 1%, year on year, for decades this has been happening. And you know, that might not sound like a lot, but, you know, you're losing 1% a year for 25 years. Well, that's a quarter, 50 years. It's half. You know, you can very easily extrapolate out the data and ask whether, you know, at some, some point in the future, men, men are going to have testostero all. But no, nobody seems to talk about it. And so my book really is an attempt to reframe the problem as a biological problem and actually to ask some unsettling questions about whether liberalism itself is a low testosterone political system, which actually I think it. I think it is in many respects.
- [06:51]
Michael Malice
You know, it's fascinating you say that because there is one person who I know who's talked about this, not at length, and it's my second favorite political commentator, where cultural commentator Fran Leibowitz. There was a documentary of her by Martin Scorsese. And what Fran does when she comes to on her tours, she goes to your town. There's a journalist who interviews her for 30 minutes and the rest is improv questions from the audience. And it's a documentary. Someone asked her about men versus women and whatever and like, what the difference is. And she goes, testosterone. And she goes, testosterone is a chemical in the body. It makes men aggressive. And the quote here is, if it could be learned, we would be studying it because it works. And she goes on to say, women nowadays, you know, 30s, 40s, 50s, whatever, are doing all sorts of steps in order to have babies. And if you are talking to, you know, a woman, all she's thinking about is her baby. If the baby's in the room, she's looking at her baby. Is this who you want as your lawyer? And she's like, if you have a man and he's got his baby in the room, he'll still be a lawyer. And she talks about this is enormously career wise, disadvantageous for females. But it's fascinating to hear you say that because this is something that drives me crazy. I hate how people look. And this is extremely common, if not the norm. People look at politics divorced from all sorts of other issues, even things like weather, you know, like New Yorkers, I would bet a significant amount of money are more depressed than people in la. One the reasons is you have less sunlight. This, this sounds like a no brainer, but you don't see that discussed. Testosterone is such a, a universal, for lack of a better term, hormone that affects literally aspect of your thinking and your biology. All these trans men frequently report that they are far more logical, they are less emotional, they're more aggressive. Do we have any ideas about. So a lot of times when people are saying, you know, war on men, it's like, well, the men have given up before the wars even started because they've been neutered.
- [09:03]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's an, it's an unfortunate thing. I mean, you know, it's a vicious cycle. So it's not, it's not simply, it's not simply a biological problem. It's also a social and a political problem. So, you know, if you don't give men outlets for expressing behaviors that are characteristic of having testosterone, then that feeds into the decline as well. You know, like there are studies that show, for example, that if you win, if men win, they get a testosterone boost. And so, you know, like, if you don't give men opportunities to win, then you know, they, they don't, they don't enjoy the testosterone boost. And so they don't then engage in behaviors that, that kind of reinforce having higher levels of testosterone. And I mean, it's important as well, actually, I think, to look beyond aggression because one, one of the, one of the things that happens with testosterone, as with so many other things, and especially I think with regards to anything kind of masculine and associated with men, is that you get this sort of parody, you get this kind of straw man kind of argument, oh, testosterone is the aggression hormone. Testosterone is what makes men aggressive. And so actually, you know what, we're a civilized society now, you know, like we don't need aggression. We don't, you might have needed aggression in the Stone Age. You might have, you might have needed, you know, to go out and hit, hit another person or an animal with a club in order to survive. But we don't need that now. So actually, you know, if testosterone is declining, it's going to make us more civilized. And that can only be a good thing. But the truth is that actually, I mean, testosterone governs so much more than aggression. And in fact, just as an aside, estrogen is also important in modulating aggression. So there's a study that I talk about which is quite funny in the book where they gave a troop of male macaques. So those are like small monkeys. They gave them soy isoflavones, which are estrogenic compounds in soy. You know, there's all this stuff about soy giving men man boobs. Well, that's because there are compounds that mimic the female hormone estrogen. They gave these male macaques soy isoflavones and they basically became like passive aggressive incel monkeys.
- [11:28]
Michael Malice
Yeah.
- [11:28]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
So it made them retreat from the social life of the group and become really kind of sort of like bitchy. And you know, when, when, when backs were turned, they would swipe and attack and then they'd go off and retreat. So there are I think actually characteristic like testosterone based forms of aggression and then there are estrogenic forms of aggression as well. And, and you can see that in human life as well. I mean, I, I, you know, these kind of like soy boy types have their own forms of aggression, their own kind of strategies of being aggressive and being nasty. But I mean testosterone is, yeah, I mean testosterone governs mood, libido, motivation, and it's a pro social hormone as well. This is the other thing, you know, people say, oh, it's an aggression hormone, I, an antisocial hormone. But actually there are plenty of studies that show that men work together better with more testosterone. And I mean having testosterone as well influences political and social beliefs too. So you give men a dose of testosterone in an experimental setting and they will be happier with things like inequality and hierarchy. Now I think if you actually have a mature view of the world and of politics, you understand some kind of hierarchy is necessary. Hierarchy is necessary for like any kind of advanced functioning. Right. Like you need hierarchy in a nuclear, in a nuclear reactor, to run a nuclear reactor. And you need hierarchy in small scale societies and in large scale societies as well. So I mean testosterone, it really does affect things across the board. It isn't just about whether men are more or less aggressive, although that is one facet of it. So I mean, I think testosterone gets misrepresented and misportrayed in popular, in kind of popular media and in popular culture for various reasons. I mean, it is in its own way synonymous with masculinity. And so when people talk about toxic masculinity, they're also talking about testosterone. And so if you're talking about reducing toxic masculinity, you're talking about reducing testosterone. It's a kind of, it's a, it's attack. It's a tangled web. It's a tangled web. But you, but you see it everywhere. Once you start to look, you really do see it everywhere. The kind of disparagement of the kind of behaviors among men that are influenced by testosterone. Competition, you know, competition. I mean, you have the. What's the female alternative to competition? It's consensus, isn't it? It's, let's, let's sit down and talk and we'll, we'll reach, you know, we'll reach a stage where everybody agrees on everything and nobody loses out. So it's a complex thing. It's biological, it's social, it's political all at once. And it's all feeding. This problem is all feeding back into itself and kind of snowballing, which is, I think, what makes it so bad.
- [14:29]
Michael Malice
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- [16:12]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match, limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [16:54]
Commercial Announcer
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- [17:20]
Michael Malice
Grocery Outlet Bargain Market let's get back to it. When I was in Japan last year or 2024 rather, I was shocked that their billboards and their idea of masculinity is basically the boy band because there would be these billboards of these extremely, I would say either feminine or androgynous looking teenage males. They would have lipstick and like manicured nails. Now I could understand the argument that makeup doesn't have to be a female thing in the sense that when I was doing my book in the ufc, I went to the the gym where they were all training, the military camp in Iowa, Davenport, Iowa. And they were wearing nail polish and it was black. But it was just so jarring to me coming from New York, that in that conte that black nail polish meant you're a badass. Whereas back home New York, which is hardly toxic masculine central, be like you're wearing nail polish, like that's a girl thing. It's just funny. But the point is in Japan it was very clearly female coded. And I was thinking about when I was doing my research with North Korea, one of the lines in their propaganda was the sons of samurai do not easily give up their dreams of domination. And then I'm looking at billboards like they gave them up. So I don't is this something that there's some nefarious conspiracy is this, that women were selecting against testosterone, heavy males for mating preferences. Like, what is this just the food? It can't. Is it just one thing or is it a confluence of factors?
- [19:01]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Well, first of all, you know, in the book, I do actually talk a little bit about Japan because Japan is a. Japan's an interesting example. So there's this phenomenon in Japan, I'm sure you're. You're probably familiar. Familiar with this, called the hikikomori. Have you heard of hikikomori?
- [19:15]
Michael Malice
Not by name. What is it? Was it referring to.
- [19:16]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
It's extreme social recluses. So it's like, oh, yes, yes. Japan has this real. I mean, really big problem. They reckon maybe 10 million men are extreme social recluses. That's one. That's.
- [19:29]
Michael Malice
Maybe it's in South Central.
- [19:32]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah. And so it's like men who just drop out, they stay with their parents, they don't leave their room, they eat fast food, they play video games, watch anime and maybe porn, and they just don't do it. Do anything. Well, there have actually been. There's at least one study that shows that in a Japanese context, you are much more likely to be an extreme social recluse if you have low testosterone, which is. Which was interesting. And that's an avenue that actually hasn't really been pursued that far in the research. But somebody has looked at it and it's not as. It's not a surprise. I mean, it's, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot of different things working together at once. I mean, when you have a problem this complex, it's never. It's never just one thing. And so in the book, when I talk about testosterone decline, I talk about lifestyle changes. So like changes to diet, obesity in particular, chronic disease and sedentary lifestyles, lack of exercise, exposure to harmful chemicals is a big one. We're just starting to wake up to big problem. You know, just how badly the food, the air, the water, the environment, the personal care products we put on our skin, just how polluted they are with these chemicals that are known as endocrine disruptors. And what they are, the endocrine system is the body's hormone system. What they do is they. They disrupt the crucial balance of testosterone to estrogen, Right? So what distinguishes a man from a woman hormonally, basically, very, very basic terms, is the ratio of testosterone to estrogen, right? So men have more testosterone, much less estrogen. Women have much more estrogen and much Less testosterone. Both. You need both though. This, and this is a, this is a point that actually needs to be emphasized. Like a man needs estrogen and a woman needs testosterone. It's just the ratio. And in fact, actually if you're a man and you have low estrogen, that can be as bad as having low testosterone. So a man with low estrogen, for example, probably won't be able to get an erection. You wouldn't think that. But that's, but that's the truth. That's the reality. So it's lots of things and it's other factors as well. It's chronic stress. You know, we are, we are stressed in, in ways that our ancestors probably never were. You know, so like, I mean, our ancestors would have faced acute stress generally. You know, like you're a hunter gatherer and you're attacked by a saber tooth tiger or you go out on a hunt and it's, that it's dangerous and you know, you're risking your life. Like that's an acute burst of stress. But we're just chronically stressed for all sorts of reasons. There's just like the actual stress of daily life, as you would understand. It's, you know, doing a job, having to meet deadlines, having all these different obligations. But then there are these kind of environmental stresses that raise cortisol levels as well. You know, exposure to toxic chemicals, that kind of stuff. We don't sleep properly or we don't sleep as well as we could. I mean, there's a, I think there's a kind of undiagnosed epidemic of sleeplessness. And the thing is, you know, if you can double your sleep, you can double your testosterone because it's at nighttime actually that the body produces, the majority male body produces the majority of testosterone. So there's all sorts of these different factors all kind of in confluence with one another. But I mean, I always say when I talk about the environmental problems about these, these harmful chemicals. You know, if all of the chemicals in the food and the water and the environment and the deodorants and soaps and all this kind of stuff, if they promoted testosterone rather than estrogen, if they mimicked testosterone in the human body and not estrogen, and they started making men assertive and motivated and made them pack on muscle mass and, you know, made them harder to govern, then actually a long time, a long time ago, governments would have cleaned up the environment and the food supply, you know, like. But actually, you know, they'd have taken the problem seriously. But because it's the Opposite, because all of these chemicals promote estrogen because they make people less motivated, basically more docile and easier to govern. Then it's not, it's not a problem of the same order. Now, does that mean that there's a, that there's a conspiracy? I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily think so, but I think that it does. Nevertheless. You can look at it from the perspective of, well, does this actually benefit the prevailing order? And it does. I think it does. I mean, I don't think, I don't think there's actually an easy place to fit large numbers of men with high testosterone in modern liberal democracy. And one of the things actually that I talk about in the book is I talk about the 2024 election where testosterone actually became a dividing line between the Democrats and the Republicans. So, you know, when the End of Men came out in 2022, the argument about declining testosterone levels and the political effects was, was ridiculed in the mainstream media. Right? They were like, well, first of all, there isn't a testosterone decline like Tucker Carlson is suggesting. And in any case, why would that matter politically? You know, this is just kook stuff. This is Alex Jones, TIA nonsense, blah, blah, blah. Don't take this seriously. And then two years later, actually in the 2024 election, testosterone becomes a dividing line. So that's explicitly acknowledged as such. So, you know, on the Republican side, what have you got? Well, you've got Donald Trump, who's just survived an assassination attempt. He's been shot in the head on stage and presented this incredible, like, display of defiance and masculine virtue, you know, standing down a sniper still in the line of fire for all he knows, and issuing this incredible kind of defiant call to force fight. And then at the Republican National Convention, you get Hulk Hogan coming on stage and ripping off his top. Let hul. Let trumpamania run wild. You know, it's like, it's like being back in the 1980s at Madison Square Garden or something, you know, WrestleMania 3. So, like this testosterone fueled, you know, it's really like, it's like an action film or something. You know, it's like a real appeal to 1980s kind of Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Hulk Hogan and that kind of stuff. And then what happens on the Democrat side? Well, you've got, obviously you've got a presidential campaign that's led by a woman with this bizarre guy, Tim Waltz as her vp, who is, I mean, I described him as a white on white minstrel. You know, he was.
- [26:22]
Michael Malice
That's right.
- [26:23]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
He was Basically, he was basically like pretending to be a Midwest white guy. Like the worst possible caricature of your embarrassing your embarrassing uncle. You know, like it's Thanksgiving and he's drunk too much. He's drunk too much beer and too much whiskey or whatever and he's like po going to John Mellon camp and kind of, you know, just embarrassing everyone. Like that's what Tim Wolf was doing. But actually at the dnc, Planned Parenthood drove a mobile vasectomy clinic.
- [26:54]
Michael Malice
Oh my God.
- [26:55]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Do you know about this?
- [26:56]
Michael Malice
No.
- [26:57]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Oh my God. Yes. A Planned Parenthood took a mobile clinic to the DNC and on one of the days they offered vasectomies, free vasectomies to any man who, who you know, signed up. And I think something like 10 or 12 men actually did end up getting the snip before they went into the, into the DNC.
- [27:15]
Michael Malice
10 or 12 males?
- [27:18]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, yeah. So they actually, they actually, you know, like it's so on the nose, right? You go to the DNC and you get emasculated. Like, you know, people have been talking about, you know, like wimpy leftist soy boy types and. But like it's lit, it's a literal thing, right? You go to the DNC and you get emasculated and then you go inside the hall and what do you get told? Well, you've got CNN Dana Bash saying, actually, you know what, we, she, she genuinely said this. We are the party of men who don't have high testosterone. We don't want that Hulk Hogan stuff. So this was like a month after or a week after Hulk Hogan ripped his top off at the dnc. We don't want that kind of stuff. The gun toting, you know, sort of muscle bound beer drinking, you know, like toxic masculinity. No, we don't want that. We've got tonic masculinity. We got Tim Waltz and we're the party of the kind of non traditional male, you know, we're the, with the party of this new kind of, of man and actually having low testosterone. And they said this too makes you more likely to accept the leadership of a woman. And that's necessary for progress with a capital P. You know, like if we're going to have a woman and a woman of color as the leader of the United States, then actually we're going to have to embrace testosterone decline because that's the only way that you're going to get men to accept that. And this was all spelled out, you know, like within two years of, within two years of of this barrage of ridicule that was, that was kind of fired against Tucker Carlson for the End of Men documentary. So we're like, we've actually come quite a long, we've actually come quite a long way in a, in a short period of time in terms of starting to acknowledge like the, the hormonal basis of politics and that maybe actually this kind of divergence that we're seeing or these trends that we're seeing in terms of testosterone decline could actually be a defining factor in the, in the future of politics in America. So it definitely, it's definitely being channeled. I think it's definitely being channeled. Definitely works to the advantage of the left. And it's, and it's become a kind of signature position, I think, of the right, especially under Trump. Now that, and with RFK Jr. As secretary of HHS, that actually, you know, like, we, we've got a monopoly now on test on testosterone. You know, like, that's our position. Our position is like, no, no, you know, testosterone client's actually bad. You know, we need testosterone for a properly functioning society or certainly a properly functioning conservative right wing society. So there are definitely interesting things happening. And yeah, I mean, the question of whether or not it's deliberate actually is kind of beside the point because it's the, it's the outcomes really that matter and they're, they're kind of indistinguishable from whether or not from, from if it, if it actually were deliberate.
- [30:12]
Michael Malice
Well, it's, it's. You're, you're. I'm gonna push back a little bit because the right does not have a monopoly because trans men are, when it comes to the trans issue, they are tripping over themselves to give young females testosterone. And it's very kind of bizarre that somehow, you know, if I'm a biological female and I decided testosterone, it's the best thing that's ever happened. But if I'm a young man who, you know, can't compete with other young men and I want testosterone, I should go to jail. It's, it's hilarious in a sense.
- [30:41]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, well, I think they're def, they're definitely contradictions. I mean, they're the, the, I think the whole of the, the kind of modern leftist enterprise is a hotbed of, oh, of course, contradictions, you know, where simultaneously you have to acknowledge, well, like, identity is immutable. Is, isn't immutable. You know, like, you can, you can change your identity. You are what you believe you are. And yet at the same time, you have to take hormones and actually physically take a scalpel to your body in order to become what you actually are. I mean, it's, it's, it's such a, it's such a glaring contradiction, but they seem to be able to work through it somehow. But yeah, I mean, the only, the only way I think in which, yes, you're right, the, the left actually takes testosterone seriously is when they're planning on administering it to young girls.
- [31:33]
Michael Malice
Isn't there also a huge epidemic? And, you know, there's a lot of talk about how young women are looking at Instagram and the filters and they're all being rendered nice, you know, ready to just jump off a bridge because they're comparing themselves to perfection. But young men in terms of like bodybuilding, physical culture are also being held to insane standards. And my understanding is use of steroids among high school kids is through the roof. But it's also completely bizarre because it's not the sort of thing that actually tends to attract females. Like every woman I talk to and all the research says if a guy is at that level of concern with his physique, women find it repellent, which as guys, it sound, it sounds crazy. But I've, you know, I, I, you see it if you're looking at all these Instagram dudes, look at who they're mate bonding with and they're not pulling, you know, the top females at all that women find it horrific.
- [32:37]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
No, it's quite funny actually when you see like a pro bodybuilder and you see his girlfriend or wife and she's an absolute hog. You know, it's like, it's like, wow, this guy's the, this guy's the, the most muscular. This guy's Mr. Olympia, right? You know, he's like the Gigachad of all gigachads. And yeah, he's got this like short, fat, hog woman covered in tattoos and you're like, wow. Yeah, I get, I guess it was all worth it, huh? But I mean, I mean, it's like, yeah, I mean, the Gigachad thing is funny because I think somebody did some kind of like psychological study of this where they got men and women to rate pictures of men. And I think one of the pictures was Gigachad. And all of the men were like, oh, this guy's 10 out of 10. This guy's the most attracted. You know, we all know Gigachad. He's like a 6 foot 7 Russian model, incredibly muscular. He has a head that looks like it was carved out of a Piece of granite, you know, like an absurd person who actually many people don't, can't quite believe really exists, but does. And yes, all the men are like, oh yeah, he's 10 out of 10. He's the most attractive man in the world. And all the women were like, he's a six or a five. But there's something, yeah, I mean this, the, the kind of, the, the mimesis of social media is, is very interesting because we tend to focus, yeah, we tend to focus on women and we're like, oh, Instagram is so toxic. You know, all of these, these women, fitness and wellness influence influencers, you know, who may very well be like specimens, but they're also using filters and they're manipulating the images and they're presenting a very selective image of their lives and who they are and all this kind of stuff that's actually quite hard to emulate or even impossible to emulate for most people. But the same thing is definitely going on with, is definitely going on with men. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dishonesty in the fitness industry. You know, you only need to look at somebody like Brian Johnson, the liver king. Right? You know, I'm natty. I, I, I follow the nine ancestral tenets. I, you know, I shield my house from electromagnetic radiation. I jump in a cold lake every day. You know, I, I only eat raw animal organs. Oh yeah, and by the way, I spend $10,000 a month on human growth hormone. That's the part, that's the part he doesn't tell you. Right? So he's spending tens of thousands of dollars on, on steroids, which was obvious to anybody who actually, you know, knows anything about fitness. But these people get away with, with these really egregious lies. You know, I'm not on gear, I'm a natty. I look like I'm on gear, but that's just because I've got superior genetics. And also, maybe you should buy my fitness program, which will tell you, like, the special exercises to do to get a, to get a, you know, a physique that looks like you're roided to the gills when you actually are.
- [35:25]
Michael Malice
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Michael Malice
left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Get back to the show. Can we talk? Because this really drives me crazy. Everyone who goes to the gym goes to this has the same equipment, right? Even if you have an in home gym as a celebrity, you're not having some kind of magic machine. It's. It's right. And this idea that normies believe that celebrities somehow have magic exercises and it's like, even if that were true, let's suppose that's true. How are these exercises being kept a state secret? Right. If I'm a trainer of celebrity, it's my job to get what's his name to look like Thor. Why would I only tell Thor when I could be like, look, I made him look like Brian Hems, the whatever his name is. I. I made him look like Thor. Take. And very quickly, I could be a billionaire because I just knew this. It's not the human body. People at home, celebrities, even if they've got amazing genetics, they're not so many standard deviations away that they can defy biology. And there are not these secret exercises other than deadlifts, perhaps that if you do them, your results are going to be astronomically disproportionate to what everyone else at Gold's Gym or even Jack lalanne, whatever you want to call it, is doing. It's really one of the most psychotic concepts being presented in magazines like Men's Health.
- [39:04]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's amazing because, I mean, that kind of thing started really, I think, or I remember it being a really kind of absurd thing with Hugh Jackman.
- [39:14]
Michael Malice
That's right, yeah.
- [39:15]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
When Hugh Jack. Because like in the first X Men, Hugh Jackman looked good, right? I mean, he was probably like mid to late 30s. But if you compare what Hugh Jackman looks like in x Men 1 to the later ones, I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy. Like he's so obviously been on, he's so obviously hopped on gear, you know, but they're all these like Men's Health magazine and whatever. They're like Hugh Jackman's X Men 3 workout. And it's like four sets of 12. Lateral raises, four sets of 12 incline bench, four, four. Four sets of 12 RDls. And then it's like, eat chicken and rice and, and you know, they, they go on these talk shows, guys like Hugh Jackman and Chris Hemsworth and the ro. Even the Rock. And they're like, yeah, I just eat really clean and then once a week I have a big cheat meal of Krispy Kreme doughnuts. You're like, like who believe. Like, nobody should believe that. But they get, I mean, maybe they're obviously, they're probably contractually obliged not to say that they're taking steroids. But like, even if you look at the history of bodybuilding, if you look at the different eras, the eras exist in large part because actually new forms of pharmaceutical were invented. Like the mass monster era that was initiated by Dorian Yates in the early 90s, like 1992 or whatever it was that was. I mean, Dorian Yates obviously has good Genetics. And he trained like a. Like a. Like a monster. But that was new genetics, that was new pharmaceuticals, that was. That was using insulin and human growth hormone and. And other. Other anabolic steroids. And like, the transition from the 70s through to the 80s, that was moving away from, like, Diana Ball to Trent to Trembolone. And like, yeah, it's. There's. There's so. It's so. There's so many lies, so many lies. And people. People unfortunately believe them. And I think it does have a bit. It does have a big effect on teenagers. And now you've got TikTok, you know, you've got teenagers saying, I'm on trend. I've hopped on. I'm. I'm 15 years old and I've hopped. I've hopped on trend. You're like, why the. Why would you do that? You know, like, you're in the prime of your life, hormonally, physically. Like, you know, you could look really good with some hard work. It would take you a bit longer. But actually, all you're. All you're really doing going on a cycle when you're, you know, picking up weights for the first time is you're just getting your newbie gains much quicker and also potentially doing irreversible damage to your body.
- [41:38]
Michael Malice
But you know why they're doing that? Because you just watched his video.
- [41:42]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, like, the thing to go back actually to the thing about men who endlessly preen themselves being, you know, like, actually really unattractive, there is that famous experiment, you know, the mouse utopia experiment that was performed by Calhoun, I forget his first name, but there's a psychologist called Calhoun Calhoun, and he created this basically utopia for mice. So he created an environment where mice were free from want, free from danger, free from stress, and they could just endlessly reproduce. And what he found. Eat and reproduce, basically, and what he found was that actually after a certain number of generations, something very strange started to happen where the mice. The kind of. The social structure of kind of mouse life within this. Within this experimental area just kind of collapsed. And you got. The mice wouldn't reproduce. And then. But what was funniest of all was that actually there was the emergence of this particular class of mice that he dubbed the Beautiful Ones. And they would just preen themselves endlessly. They were. They weren't interested in anything else other than attending to their own appearance at the exclusion of reproducing, of doing anything of, you know, carrying out, like, the basic functions that mice normally carry out and I mean, the study is kind of endlessly talked about and, you know, used as a kind of parallel for what's happening in maybe in contemporary human society. But I think there is something to it. Like, it's not possible, I think, to preen yourself in that way in a. In a society that, like, that, unlike ours, you know, hasn't eliminated certain forms of want and. And scarcity. You know, like, you have to have a lot of free time and resources and a kind of lack of cares to devote yourself to. Look smacking like someone, like, clavicular. This, you know, new guy who's kind of turned up on the scene and just spends his entire life, you know, taking different peptides and trying to kind of like increase his height and. And the width of his shoulders and the. His bone structure and he's taking meth in order to stay lean. And, you know, I mean, it's just. But I mean. Okay, so, I mean, he, like, he is a handsome guy, and so he does get girls. And also he's a social media. Right. Celebrity. Which. Which is, you know, another factor to consider. But actually just like an average Joe who spends his life obsessing over, you know, gaining an extra half inch in height and, you know, extra width in the shoulders and maybe some definition and cheekbones and that kind of stuff, like, is generally probably repugnant to women. It's.
- [44:33]
Michael Malice
I think the way I wrap my head around it, I feel like it's the equivalent of dating a chick who's a vegan because everything has to be around her food. And you're making. You're being a pain in the ass for no reason. And the female's telling you, look, if you don't have visible obliques, I don't care. And women do not care if men have visible obliques.
- [44:51]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Obliques.
- [44:52]
Michael Malice
But for him, everything has to be around his obliques. It's at a certain point for the woman, it's not just exhausting, it's also bizarre. It's like, I'm telling you, I don't care. I'm with you. You're telling me. I don't get it. Well, I don't know what that even means in this context. So there's this kind of essential disconnect in communication and worldview.
- [45:11]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in many ways then there is a disconnect between men and women in the modern world. And it's probably white and it's. And it's widening. Yes, very, very definitely. You see this manifesting itself in. In politics, you know, like if you, you have these studies of, of political polarization, because everyone's talking about polarization and it turns out that actually, you know, over recent decades, as far as we can tell, then actually men have generally cleaved to the center. Right. You know, they, they've generally forged a pretty stable course. But what's happened on the other side with women, they've just gone off crazy to the left. They've just veered off on a tangent. So political polarization isn't actually necessarily like the sex is diverging in an equal amount, you know, away from each other. It's actually just one side just going off, going rogue. And I mean, I, I talk a little bit about, I mean, the book is about, the book is about women as well. You know, I do, I do address myself to a. Women. I mean, I think that men's problems are women's problems and I think that women's problems are men's problems. And you know, much of the kind of hormonal stuff that's happening, this exposure to these estrogenic chemicals, for example, is very bad for women too. It's as bad for women as it is for men. It skews their hormonal profile and it has biological psychological effects on them too. But I talk about hormonal contraception because I think that that's something, that's something, that's, that's very, very interesting because, you know, in many respects, I think that the advent of hormonal contraception is probably the greatest deliberate hormonal intervention that's ever happened in human history.
- [46:56]
Michael Malice
Yes.
- [46:57]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
We're talking like tens and tens of millions of women suddenly being administered exogenous hormones as a, as a deliberate practice to achieve a kind of social and political ends.
- [47:09]
Michael Malice
Can I say something quick, Charlie? Because this is something, I think it's really, really key. One of the most profound and obvious in retrospect quotes is by Thomas Sowell when he says there are no solutions, there are only trade offs. And a big essential part of contemporary leftism is the idea that there's never trade offs, that if something is good, it is unambiguously good and there isn't a cost.
- [47:31]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Right?
- [47:32]
Michael Malice
So if you want to be a mom and have a job, it's, it's, you can make it happen. You're superwoman.
- [47:37]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yep.
- [47:37]
Michael Malice
The idea that if you're someone has gender dysphoria and you take estrogen to make you look like what you want to be, let's, let's pretend for the sake of argument, that's great. There's no downside. None. So it's, it's. And the thing was with the pill, which, which, the birth control pill, which was correctly in a sense, although I use this word loosely, very liberating for women, they no longer had to be worried, worried about is he going to wear protection? You know, am I going to get impregnated? The idea that there's no even possibility of there being any cost to this is regardless of kind of, you know, barbarian caveman thing.
- [48:14]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah.
- [48:14]
Michael Malice
In fact, to the point where now I, I'm sure it's probably the case, you know, across the pond the argument is women shouldn't even have to pay financially for it. Like the pill should be free. There should be literally no cost. And when you realize this is one of the reasons, I think conversations across political boundaries are difficult, that it is a insane worldview to think that literally, literally whatever you do, anywhere there's an opportunity cost, there's going to be a downside. You spending time on this, on this program, that's an hour you could be doing something else, as am I ever watching this as well. They don't think in these terms and they also become enraged at the idea of that. Well, if something's the right thing to do, like, it doesn't really matter. Well, it's, it's, it's. I don't even know how to describe it other than detachment.
- [49:04]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
It's the world view of a poorly socialized child.
- [49:07]
Michael Malice
Yeah, that's right.
- [49:08]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Michael Malice
I want this.
- [49:09]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, I, I want this. I gotta have it. I'm gonna have it. Like. Yeah, but I mean, like the thing I think about the contraceptive pill in particular and the kind of transition trade offs or supposed lack of trade offs, is that like it's so central to the leftist project of liberation and female liberal.
- [49:28]
Michael Malice
That's right, yes.
- [49:29]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Like women have to be liberated from their physical constraints, from their biological constraints. Like you cannot have. And I think this is in some sense this is right. Like you can't have equality, as leftists conceive of it, without something like the contraceptive pill. You have to liberate women from their biological cycles. Because, because otherwise then the, the notion that they are equal, obviously equal with men is, is untenable. So, you know, any kind of suggestion that actually there might be a trade off here, that, you know, like the, the hormone contraceptive could be a bad thing, that it could actually be a bad choice for women is, is greeted with intense, intense fury. So, I mean, so I, I talk about hormonal Contraception. In the, in the book I talk about, there was this study that was done recently and I think we actually talked about this when we, when we hung out in Austin. They, they did MRI scans of women's brains and they found out that actually hormonal contraception shrinks a region of the frontal lobe of the brain called the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. And that's involved in fear processing and emotional regulation, which are important executive functions. Yes, right. Like being able to regulate fear and anxiety and your emotions is an essential part of being a human. And you know, like, if you've got tens of millions of women whose, who are suddenly experiencing like profound disorder in the, in the, in their executive function, you know that that's going to have aggregate population level effects. Now there's so little research on this kind of stuff because it's so politically explosive. Right. So the researchers behind the study, this MRI scan study, you know, they say in the piece, oh, this, this looks very worrying. You know, we, we really didn't, you know, shrinking the brain. This is worrying. But look, let's not jump to any conclusions about the kind of political or social implications of this. We simply don't know. They're just covering their asses because of course they don't. Well, they want their research to be published, for one thing. And actually, you know, if you, if you do a study like that and then you say, oh my, oh my God, you know, like this is going to be having aggregate effects on the social level, then, you know, be less likely to be published and you might be sort of branded some kind of right wing conspiracy, this, blah, blah, blah. But there's every reason to believe that this is having, that this kind of deliberate hormonal intervention in the, in the, in the biology of tens of millions of women across not only individual societies, but across the Western world, the developed world could actually be having aggregate political effects and could be driving, could be driving some of this polarization. I mean, girls, girls are given hormonal contraception from the age of, you know, 13, 14, not only as a contraceptive, but also as a treatment for acne and skin conditions and, and other stuff as well. And so, and they never double any of the downsides.
- [52:42]
Michael Malice
That's the thing. It's not an informed decision.
- [52:45]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. So there's a, there's a book that I draw on as well about hormonal contraception. It's called this is your brain on birth Control. I think it's. Sarah, I think it's Sarah Hill is the author. But it's a book about, you know, all of the things that hormonal birth control does to women that they're, that they're really not told about by their doctor. And there is, you know, there's research for example, that shows women's sexual preferences change on and off the pill, as indeed they change during a woman's cycle. So a difference. So you know, when you're on hormonal contraception, you are fixed in a particular phase of your menstrual cycle. I think it's the, it's the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. Well, at different phases of the, of the menstrual cycle, women want different things. Like when you're fertile as a woman, you basically want like a, you're on the lookout for a, for a man who displays the signs of reproductive fitness, high testosterone. Right. Well, when you're, when you're past the fertile phase of the menstruation cycle, then that changes. So if you fix women in one phase of the cycle and their sexual preferences might be one thing, they come off, they change. And you actually, you actually see this like couples, this is not just anecdotal. I mean, this is, they've been researching this. Like couples will break up when the woman comes off birth control if she was on birth control when they met. Because, you know, you're on birth control and it means that you don't want, let's say like a, classically a man who displays the classic signs of testosterone. You come off birth control as a woman and you look at your partner and you're like, who is this twink? Who is this, who's this like, you know, noodle armed loser that I've been going out with or, or married to? And I mean, it really happens. But no one's told that. And in fact, it's still very hard to discuss that despite the fact that it's, that it's quite well substantiated in experimental scientific literature. But yeah, I mean, all of the downsides are never explained. I mean, this is like a broader problem with pharmaceuticals in general. It's a problem with these new weight loss drugs, you know, like, oh yeah, go, you know, go on Azempic, go on Mountjaro, it'll be great. You'll lose weight, you'll know, you'll feel much better about yourself. And then you end up with stomach paralysis, which means you end up having to be drip fed for the rest of your life.
- [55:13]
Michael Malice
It's worth it very fatty.
- [55:17]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, but I mean, like, you tried
- [55:19]
Michael Malice
it your way, it didn't work.
- [55:22]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
But, you know, like, the fundamental problem is different, though, with these hormonal contraceptives because it touches on the liberatory aspect, the, the liberatory nature of the leftist project. It's so fundamental to the leftist conception of freedom. To the leftist project. What are we doing? You know, what's our aim? It's to liberate people. It's to make people equal.
- [55:44]
Michael Malice
Well, that, actually, I think Marxism, which informs a lot of leftism historically and in a subterranean way, contemporarily completely defies biology at all. And the idea is humans are economic creatures and they don't ever talk about this sort of stuff. So you, you know, this kind of follow the science. You basically look at everyone as infinitely mutable and, you know, their only limits are their own imagination. And there's no acknowledgment of biology in a political context whatsoever, other than a woman has a right to, you know, have an abortion. But other than that, it's just, it's very. It's just untrue, you know, to detach human beings from biological natures. It's already, like, I'm not, okay, I'm not having this conversation because you can't escape your biology. There's nowhere else to go.
- [56:32]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Well, I mean, and I mean, the problem is, of course, that it's. First, let's say it's an unfalsifiable ideology. So you, you encounter a difference between men and women. What's that? That's not, that's not an immutable biological difference. That's a difference that's been thrown up because of social inequality. That's a product of class. It's a product of patriarchy. Right. So what do you need to do? Well, you need to level that, you know, you need to continue leveling the playing field. You need to eliminate that artificial constraint. And it just goes on like that, you know, like, and you, and you, you know, you see these, these academics who will talk about men and women are biologically equal, and they'll say, you know, like, you have anthropologists say stuff like, oh, yeah, in primitive hunter gatherer societies, actually, women did all the hunting. There's no, there's like, there's basically no evidence. I actually wrote a piece about this because there was a. There was a.
- [57:27]
Michael Malice
There's a book. Have you read why Men Rule?
- [57:30]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
No, I haven't. I should. Yeah, I should.
- [57:32]
Michael Malice
For those who don't know, there's a book Called why Men Rule. It was originally published on another title, but language had changed because when he first published it, I forgot the author's name. He thought, when it's called why Men Rule, people think it means why those men who rule are the ones who rule. Like, why do some men become kings and others become, you know, drug addicts? But his. What the what, what it refers to is why is it that literally every society is ruled by men? He's an anthropologist and there are no. And his point is, if you have some human beings live in every climate, you know, every everywhere on earth, if something is universal, it has to have a biological basis. And he goes, there's never been a. Besides this kind of. When people find sculptures of goddesses, you know, back in the day, it's like, oh, you know, they must have been female oriented. Well, you know, Christ was never married. We're not having a society that's a Christian society where people aren't getting married. That's not what. Who you worship is not exactly how you live your life.
- [58:30]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
No.
- [58:31]
Michael Malice
So it's a fascinating book and it's, it kind of makes the case very profoundly that this is. If something is universal, it's not coincidental or, you know, some conspiracy in Europe, but it's different in Asia or whatnot.
- [58:46]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's a very, very sensible basis on which to proceed. I mean, you know, we have so much. I mean, I start. I studied anthropology, I did anthropology at Cambridge. And I mean, social anthropology as a discipline is one of the most leftist disciplines you could imagine. I mean, it is crazy. It is crazy. I even back in, when I was studying was like 2010 to 2012. I mean, it was like at the forefront of all of the stuff actually that you're seeing now. So, you know, people were, even then were talking about the transgender stuff and everyone in the department was either like a Marxist or, or, you know, like a disciple of Foucault or some kind of postmodern thinker.
- [59:28]
Michael Malice
Have you read Testosterone Rex? That was a big book that.
- [59:31]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
No, I haven't. No, that was another book I probably should have read.
- [59:35]
Michael Malice
It's, it's. There's some British. It got some big British award, like book, book of the year, something from like the Academic Academy of Sciences in the uk, Something crazy like that. And basically her premise was that the effects of testosterone over overblown and that, you know, men and women are more alike than people want to admit. And she might be right in that regard. But when it comes to competition. The things that are identical don't matter. It's literally only the differences that matter. So if you and I both were selling a soda and they're completely identical in its bottle and completely identical in its context, contents, the only thing that matters might be the label. But that label would have, might have profound sales differences. I might get 80% of the market, you might get 20. So, so even if her point was true, which I don't think it does, it's of no real relevance when it, when these things get extrapolated out.
- [60:29]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah. And I mean, one of the things that I do in the book is I look at, I mean, I think one of the, the best ways to understand what testosterone does is to look at what happens to men who don't have very much.
- [60:39]
Michael Malice
That's right, yeah.
- [60:40]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah. And there's a wonderful resource for that. It's called Reddit. And you know, there are. No, no, I'm being serious.
- [60:50]
Michael Malice
You're only being half kid. You're only half kidding. Yeah, yeah.
- [60:53]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
There's actually, you know, there are loads of dedicated Reddit forums to low testosterone. Right. And you get these really great testimonials in the, in the low T sub forums about, well, what's my life like as a man who, who's has been diagnosed clinically with low testosterone. And it's, it's a nightmare. You know, it's like I cannot get out of, I can barely drag myself out of bed to go to work. Like, I don't have any libido hairs falling out. I don't have any interest in doing anything. I don't see any future. I don't think that I can, that I have any agency. I don't think I can change what's happening to me. It's like, it's a nightmare. And then, and then you will get, like, later posts by the same user where they're like, where they buy the. Somehow miraculously, you know, started lifting weights and eating meat and doing the kind of things that improve testosterone, or they've just gone to the doctor and had a, had exogenous testosterone gel injection given to them and they're like, I am a different person. I can, I cannot believe what has happened to me. Like, I, I, they use like the language of rebirth. I mean, it's that, it's that strong. It's like I, I've emerged from a, you know, I've emerged from a chrysalis or like a pupa, you know, like, I've become a complete.
- [62:13]
Michael Malice
If people think Charlie's Exaggerating. Just Google trans men.
- [62:17]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, just.
- [62:18]
Michael Malice
Just take one quick look and see if it's a subtle or profound difference.
- [62:24]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, I mean. Yeah. I mean, hormones really do, really do make a difference. You can. You can make an argument that men and women are more similar than they are different, and that may very well be true. I mean, that's something. That was always a point that Jordan Peterson made to his critics when they were like, about, you know, the different. Talking about the differences between men and women. He's like, there are more things that. Yes, yeah. But when you're dealing with the extremes of the distribution, the effects actually ramify enormously, you know, so, like, there's a great Camille Paglia quote about. Think from Sexual Persona, where she says, like, you know, there's never been a female Beethoven because there are no female serial killers.
- [63:09]
Michael Malice
No, no. You fucked up the quote.
- [63:11]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Did I? It's. It's early in the morning, man. Give it to me.
- [63:14]
Michael Malice
The quote is the reason there's no female Mozart is because there's no female Jack the Ripper.
- [63:21]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
That's it. Yeah, yeah, it's much better. But. But, like, you think, oh, that's just a sound bite. But, like, no, I mean, that's. That's really. That's really the case. The extremes of IQ and the extremes of aggression and the extremes of motivation, like, they all. They favor men. They do favor men. They're correlated. And like, yeah, in. In the. In the broad middle, then, yeah, men and women overlap a lot. But then at the tails, like, at both ends as well, you know, at the bottom, at the very bottom of the barrel, and at the top, like, it's men. It's men. It's all men. And. But. But even that is a. That's a very hard thing for people to stomach. They don't like to think in those terms. But, you know, I mean, the bet. The. The best possible example of that maybe, is the military, right? It's like all the most aggressive, most fit human beings are men, and they're the people that you want in the military. They're the people that you want in SEAL Team 6 or Delta Force to go and. To go and grab Nicholas Maduro in the middle of the night with, you know, directed energy weapons like that. That's just. That's just. That's just reality. And you. You either accept that or you. Or you wage an endless battle against reality in an attempt to deny it, and. And all you actually do is you stack up atrocity after atrocity after atrocity, and Then your society collapses eventually.
- [64:51]
Michael Malice
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- [67:10]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, I, I mean, I think as a general point, like, you do have to understand that, like, no ideology can be 100% lies.
- [67:19]
Michael Malice
That's right.
- [67:20]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
You can't, you can't build anything on a foundation of total, total fabrication like that. Just. That just doesn't work. And so, yeah, I mean, there are. Leftists do recognize real truths about, about human life and society, and some of the, the goals that they pursue are, are positive and certainly on. Positive on paper, and they certainly provide motivation for people. But like, but yeah, I mean, the social construction of gender thing is, is actually. Is actually a very obvious, obvious point. I mean, but what it, what it doesn't mean is that gender is socially constructed all the way down. And that's what the radical. Exactly. It's social. It's elephants all the way down. It's just social construction all the way down. There is no biological substrate or biological underpinning or substructure or whatever underpinning it. It's just layer upon layer of fiction. Right. But, you know, like, you say, you go around Europe, like, there's a very diff. There's, there's a big difference between, like, masculinity in a Northern European country and in a Southern European country. And it's always, it's been quite a sort of like, let's say like a kind of typical slur, for example, for Northern Europeans maybe to think that Southern European men are effeminate in a way that, you know, like, they don't think that they are, but. And, you know. Yeah, like when, when you go further afield, when you go to somewhere like Korea or Japan or, or Russia or, or some kind of tribal society, then, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna see stuff that actually kind of confounds your immediate kind of perception of masculinity. But I think the fundamentals are there. The fundamentals are shared across all societies. Like what, what, what do, what do men do? I mean, what are, what are men? What is the, what is the role of a man? I mean, you don't, you don't ever find there's, there's been no recorded society in which men stay at home and knit and women go out and hunt, despite what, you know, some anthropologists would. Would kind of like to say, like, there's no. You have those goddess figurines like you say, you know, like you might worship a female goddess. You might, you might. That might be the, that might be the main deity of your society. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's. That it's not a patriarchal society or not a society in which men actually hold more power because of, because of basic biological facts. I mean, because of the basic physical disparity between men and women. Because of the fact that women until the 1960s have been. Been. You know, tied to their reproductive function from an early age, you know, from, from, from teenage. So, yeah, I mean, you could, you can admit, you can admit that. That there is a social construction element to gender. It's obvious. Like, and, and it's silly. It's silly not to concede that because you only need to travel the world, as you say, to see that actually men do, you know, men behave in different ways. Men do behave in different ways, and there are different expectations. But nevertheless, men are. Men are. Men are men. Yes. And the, the attempt to deny biology is. Well, you get. I mean, I think what you really get is you get a return of the repressed.
- [70:43]
Michael Malice
That's right, yeah.
- [70:44]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah. You know, this kind of Freudian thing where like, okay, you try and repress biology and then it comes back in, in, in a bigger way, in a nasty way that actually ends up kind of. Kind of surprising. I mean, one of the points Jordan Peterson made, one of his more controversial points, actually, that I quite liked, was about, you know, like, these radical, radical feminists in countries like Sweden who, you know, where Sweden is like one of the most, you know, one of. One of the societies where the kind of leftist project of flattening out the differences between men and women has advanced the furthest. But what you get, you get, you know, leftist women who, who are absolutely on top of their, like, you know, equality or this kind of stuff, importing hordes and hordes of men from the most violently patriarchal, violently misogynist societies into their country. Like, what on earth is that about? You know, it's, it's, it's a very, it's a very strange thing. It goes back to, you know, talk about these, these, these contradictions, you know, I mean, there are deep, deep contradictions, I think emerge when you try to repress something as fundamental as biology. You can't, you can't keep a lid on it. You can't keep a lid on it.
- [72:00]
Michael Malice
I remember when I was the kid, I must have been 10 or something, and I first learned about menstruation and the incredulity that I, I Said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling. I felt like that meme with the white lady and the African kid looking at her just, like, with complete incredulity. I was like, you're telling me every single woman, including my mom, has to put up with this crap once a month for the majority of her life. And everyone knows this, and they're fine with it, and they like, if I'm a girl, like, this is just something I have to deal with for decades. I still kind of like, holy shit. Talk about being dealt a bad hand. It's just.
- [72:43]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah, yeah, insane. You, you're telling, you're telling me that women bleed for five days every month and don't die for like, 50 years,
- [72:52]
Michael Malice
and it's just like, what are you gonna do? It's just like, holy. I, I, I still remember that moment. I was just like. And how did I not only, how am I only learning about this now if this is like, I know everyone goes to the bathroom. Anyway, folks, head over to malice.locals.com supporting listeners get to send in questions. And they send questions this week for Charlie is the uk do you think?
- [73:14]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
I try, I try to remain optimistic. I do. And, you know, because it's my, it's my home, and I love it, but, And I, you know, want to defend it, but it's bad. Things about. Things are bad. Things really are. Things really are bad over there, man. And it's, it's amazing how quickly they've got bad as well, you know, like, noticeably. Things were getting bad for, you know, probably been getting bad for, for, well, since the Second World War, actually. I think that's certainly the, the, the more proximate kind of cause of British decline in many respects. But like, the last five years, since the pandemic, actually, there was, you know, there was a big millions and millions of people came into the country during the pandemic because of Boris Johnson. They call it the Boris wave of migrants. And you see it in London, you know, like, I went back to London for the first time after the pandemic. I don't know when that was, like, 2023. And I was like, holy, what is going on here? Like, there are just massive groups of, like, East African, like, visibly, you know, Somali men just standing around in the street, you know, just everywhere. And I made, made the mistake of staying in Whitechapel, which is where, you know, Jack the Ripper committed all of his murders in the 19th century. And it was just like, it was like being in Islamabad or Peshawar or something. You know. Or some other, like, Pakistani. It was just cr. Just crazy. I'm like, I'm the only, I appear to be the only English person in this entire area of London. I, I don't know. I mean, there isn't, I wouldn't, there's no kind of comparable movement yet in the UK to maga. You've got reform. And they seem to be riding high in the polls and they do talk a kind of tough line on immigration. But I don't think that Nigel Farage is Donald Trump, and I don't. Conditions are different in the uk in the us, so I don't know how successful. I mean, obviously I hope they will be, but I think that the problems in the UK and the problems in other parts of Europe are serious. But the problems in the US are very serious, too. And I think it's, I think in many respects, actually, the demographic problems in the US are probably worse than in Europe.
- [75:23]
Michael Malice
They're not.
- [75:24]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Do you not think so?
- [75:25]
Michael Malice
They're not worse in the US than they are in the uk? I'm sorry.
- [75:30]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
No. You don't think so?
- [75:31]
Michael Malice
Not even close. And we have guns. I think that's a big one. There is, there is not. Like you just said, there is a huge cultural response to this kind of project that the UK is trying to pull over. The, the, the, the, the censorship of social media is key. I don't, I don't think the First Amendment is as strong as people think, but it's not even relevant, I think, because there is this cultural belief in creating. It's not even like, oh, we're going to vote in people for free speech. We're just going to create alternative venues so you can't do anything about it, I think is the correct approach. So I, and I, I, I don't, I, I, the trajectory I think over there is much faster. And by design.
- [76:21]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yes. I mean, I think, I think as well, you know, I'm, I'm quite worried about what's going to happen if the Republicans end up getting kicked out in 2026, 2028. Because, you know, I think that Donald Trump is having a big influence actually on European governments. He's holding them back from doing a lot of things that they really want to do. I think they would ban Twitter tomorrow.
- [76:44]
Michael Malice
Yes. They're using the back door of saying it's about child images, but we know what it's really about. Yeah, they, the thing is, yeah, they, they would do it in a second.
- [76:54]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
Yeah. And then, and then, you know, we're, we're in big trouble. We're in big trouble. And they would bring in the digital IDs and all this kind of stuff and then, yeah, I mean, they could, they could get away with any kind of request oppression actually against right wingers and patriotic, just ordinary patriotic people that they, that they wanted to. So I mean, I, I think that the Trump movement in the US is actually very important, is very important for Europe and, but yeah, it's, you've got, you've got to be hopeful. I don't want, I don't want to black pill about it. But equally, I think you have to face the reality that we face this enormous uphill struggle. Enormous uphill struggle. And it's only really just begun.
- [77:34]
Michael Malice
That's right. Charlie, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?
- [77:40]
Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
All of, all of it. I think that, you know, when we, when we met up in Austin, I think we got on very well straight away. And I think we have a, we have a pretty good rapport. I mean, it's nice, it's nice to talk about this stuff actually in a way that's a bit more humorous. That's something that I. Because you can, you can be a little bit, you get a little bit serious. It obviously is a serious problem, you know, masculinity and declining testosterone levels. But actually, you know, there is a, there's a funny element to it. There's a lot to laugh about as well. And I think we've, we've laughed at quite a few different things. The right things.
- [78:13]
Michael Malice
You are welcome.
- [78:26]
James Altucher
Hey, it's James Altucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand up comic, and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altatra show and bring on some of the most brilliant, brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned and interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James Altucher show
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Michael Malice
No ifs, ands or buts about catch
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Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
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Dr. Charles Cornish Dale
It's getting good this month and always
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