Ryan Long on Why We Are Beyond Parody | “YOUR WELCOME” #411

Summary

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"YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice

Episode: Ryan Long on Why We Are Beyond Parody (#411)

Date: April 15, 2026
Guest: Ryan Long (Comedian, Podcaster)

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Overview

In this highly anticipated episode, Michael Malice welcomes comedian and satirist Ryan Long for a wide-ranging, incisive, and darkly comic conversation. The main theme centers on the current state of satire and comedy in an age where reality regularly outpaces parody, the cycles of cultural absurdity, and how artists and thinkers adapt to a landscape where nothing seems off-limits or unmockable. From the impossibility of parodying today's news to the psychology of tribal politics and the neuroses of internet culture, Malice and Long explore what happens when society moves "beyond parody," examining their roles as cultural commentators in the madness.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Post-Satire" Era in America

• Satire vs. Reality:
  • Malice opens by lamenting how actual news outstrips parody (ex: Trump's meme as Christ Healer seen on Drudge, 02:36).
    • “I can't wrap my Head around this because I've had memes ... and people know, okay, he's being ridiculous and funny. But with this one, I'm just like, I don't understand the thought process.” – Michael Malice [02:36]
• Satirical Tools Are Blunted:
  • Both note that satire is most useful “when there’s something that needs to be said and people are afraid to say it” (Malice [04:37]).
  • Now, “There is no opinion you haven’t heard ... the idea of maybe I'll say this thing? Yeah, that guy’s screaming it” (Ryan Long [05:05]).
• Commodification & Rapid Cycles:
  • America always “commoditizes things in the extreme so fast” — serious issues turn into exaggerated debates almost instantly (Malice [05:15]).
  • “Every debate that should have ever happened is taking place,” says Malice, noting culture's rapid burnout cycle.

2. The Limits of Parody: The Absurdism of Modern Progressivism

• Beyond Parody Examples:

  • Ryan describes a real-life example of absurd casting practices—a woman showing up to a Baywatch audition in a wheelchair—“and it’s like, that’s the joke” (Long [06:32]).
  • Malice brings up Canadian government officials adding “missing and murdered women” to the LGBT initialism, turning earnest categorization itself into farce ([06:39]–[08:05]).
    • “Doesn't that seem like insult to injury that you get murdered and then they call you gay?” – Michael Malice [07:54]

• Cultural Fragmentation:

  • Both discuss how extreme identitarian subcultures (furries, plushies, “Christian furries,” etc.) become difficult to satirize because self-parody is already baked in ([10:26]-[13:34]).
  • Memorable moment: Ryan cracks, “So the Christian furries ... do they only dress up as lions and lambs, or is it blasphemy?” [13:00]

3. Group Identity, Opposition, & Internet Culture

• In-Group/Out-Group Psychology:
  • Malice: “Humans define themselves by opposition ... and this is why negative politics works. All I have to prove is I'm not that guy, and that guy sucks. Okay, I'm on your team.” [14:13]
  • Satirical and contrarian comedy is “young guy comedy”—older comics are expected to actually create “the better thing” ([15:23]–[16:09]).
• Sturgeon’s Law:
  • “Eighty percent of anything is crud ... it’s easy to point out the 80% who suck—who are your 20?” — Ryan Long [17:29]
  • Malice notes the same pattern in comedy, podcasts, public intellectuals, and more.

4. Audience Perception & Criticism

• Misinterpretation by Audiences:
  • Audiences often project their own narratives or needs onto media figures, leading to parasocial confusion ([57:54]–[60:40]).
    • “I used to like you ... now I realize you’re terrible ... You're breaking up with someone who doesn't know you exist.” – Ryan Long [62:05]
  • Fan backlash is often less about the creator and “more about people curating their own realities” (Malice [57:54]).
• Criticism as a Tool & Trap:
  • Both note that endless critique (“That sucks, that sucks”) can become a shallow substitute for building or appreciating actual quality or novelty ([16:09]–[17:13]).
    • Memorable advice: “If someone brings up an app or website you don’t know, just say ‘I was on that for a while. It sucked.’” – Malice [17:13]

5. Objectivism, Self-Interest & Market Ethics

• Malice and Long on Ayn Rand:
  • Malice likens his libertarian philosophy to “knowing crypto, but not detailing exacts” ([25:59]–[26:25]).
  • Discussion of the different meanings of “self-interest” in Objectivism:
    • “If I help a friend in the hospital, she would regard that as selfishness ... but it’s not really what people mean by selfish.” – Malice [29:34]
    • Malice: “It’s one of those theories that, to some degree, you can always twist it around to make it work.” ([30:34])
• Market Interactions & Exploitation:
  • Long questions Marxist ideas of “all wealth is exploitative,” examining how narratives often contort to fit ideology ([31:35]–[33:14]).

6. Comedy's Boundaries, Jargon, and Subculture

• Comedy Jargon and Gatekeeping:

  • Mystery, the pickup artist, is discussed as someone who never dropped the lingo—even in marriage stories ([36:34]).
  • “There's a utility to having jargon ... I can sell my courses, the more terms I have, the more it sounds like I have this hidden arcana” – Malice [37:30]

• Limits of Jokes & Offense:

  • Both argue no subject is “objectively” off-limits for comedy, only that some topics are harder to make work (see “tripe vs. steak” analogy, [52:52]-[54:12]).
  • “Most people have no introspection and cannot distinguish between ‘I don’t find this funny’ and ‘it is not funny.’” – Long [55:26]

7. Empathy, Perspective-Taking, & Cognitive Shortcuts

• Empathic Limitations:
  • Malice asks whether inability to understand complex, conflicting perspectives is an “IQ issue” ([66:38]-[68:10]).
  • “Many cannot understand or see the utility in trying to entertain opposing views ... they don’t run a true/false filter, they run a us/them filter.” – Long [68:17]-[69:33]
• Intelligence, Artistry, & the Dangers of Mental Shortcuts:
  • Long and Malice discuss why the sharpest or funniest comedians aren’t always the “smartest”—too much mental “shortcutting” can kill the nuance where the best comedy lives ([72:33]-[74:47]).

8. Language, Semantics, and Culture War Binaries

• Semantics in Debate:
  • How the public confuses similar sounding but distinct statements (e.g., “Every crazy person I know likes Trump” vs “Every Trump supporter is crazy”) ([74:27]–[75:54]).
  • “With math ... people, a string of numbers, they can’t parse it out. It’s something people need to be aware of when you’re trying to communicate.” – Long [74:47]
• Culture Wars & Faith-Based Logic:
  • Some political or social topics (e.g., trans children, religion, even fat acceptance) are structured on “faith links” rather than logic, making good-faith debate nearly impossible ([79:42]-[80:31]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Death of Satire:

  • “It becomes hard to distinguish what are they saying versus what’s Michael Malice trying to tweak it.” – Michael Malice [02:36]

• On Audience Projection:

  • “You’re breaking up with someone who doesn’t know you exist.” – Ryan Long [62:05]

• On Group Fragmentation:

  • “Every group ever ... as soon as you remove the outside enemy, they immediately start fighting themselves.” – Malice, on Twitter & subcultures [13:38]

• On the Failure to Engage Opposing Ideas:

  • “They don’t run a true/false filter. They run an us/them filter.” – Ryan Long [68:17]

• On Comedy and Self-Reflection:

  • “Most people have no introspection and they cannot distinguish between ‘I don’t find this funny’ and ‘it is not funny.’” – Ryan Long [55:26]

• On Fake Empathy & Cognitive Limits:

  • “Being empathetic is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.” – Malice paraphrasing Margaret Thatcher [67:10]

• On Cultural Commodification:

  • “Every debate that should have ever happened is taking place.” – Malice [05:39]

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Key Timestamps

00:19 – 01:38

Introduction & Setting the Stage:
Malice introduces Ryan Long, discusses their overlapping comedic styles, and the challenge of distinguishing satire from real events.

03:11 – 06:50

The Wrestlemania of Politics & Death of Parody:
Malice and Long dissect how prominent figures like Trump blur the line between satire and reality, making classic satirical approaches obsolete.

10:26 – 15:00

Furries, Subcultures, and Internal Fragmentation:
A running gag (Christian furries, etc) turns into a discussion on how groups, once they lose an external enemy, turn in on themselves.

16:09 – 18:25

Scaling Critique & Sturgeon’s Law:
Malice and Long reflect on universal mediocrity, the 80/20 rule, and the importance of searching for “the good 20%.”

25:59 – 34:48

Objectivism, Self-Interest & Ethics:
Discussion of Ayn Rand’s legacy, the distortion of the term “self-interest,” and the tension between philosophy and real-world application.

52:01 – 58:09

Comedy’s Boundaries, "Objectively Funny" & Offense:
When jokes bomb, whose fault is it? The pair debate whether there are topics or jokes that are truly “objectively not funny.”

66:38 – 76:27

Empathy, Cognitive Complexity & Faith-Based Belief:
Profound examination of why most people cannot or will not imagine perspectives outside their tribe (“us/them” filter).

79:06 – 82:16

Semantics, Definitions, and Culture War Language:
Where did “fat and fit” come from? When does an argument become a matter of semantics and personal meaning rather than fact?

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Final Thoughts

Through their characteristic wit and incisive observations, Michael Malice and Ryan Long illuminate the difficulties—and opportunities—of making meaningful or humorous commentary in a world where culture so often surpasses satire and irony. Fans of subversive comedy, sociology, and chaos will find much to ponder and plenty to laugh at as the duo leap from internet culture to meta-political psychology to the future of comedy itself.

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For more from this episode, visit malice.locals.com and check out Ryan Long’s latest on his platforms.

Transcript

[Michael Malice]

You know what they say.

[Ryan Long]

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[Michael Malice]

Well, whatever you want it to.

[Ryan Long]

So you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with VRBO's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only, folks. My new graphic novel, Unwanted, a tall tale of the old west, of the new wave is out for pre order now. I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it out@unwanted book.com. Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome. For the next hour. We have with us one of our most long awaited most requested guests, comedian Ryan Long. You've seen him from many of his viral clips that are absolutely hilarious. He co hosts the boys podcast with Danny, whose last name I cannot possibly pronounce. I just. Paula Chuck. Am I close?

[Michael Malice]

Paula's cuck. I believe you want to. You want to go hard on the cuck.

[Ryan Long]

I interviewed him when I was guest hosting Will Cain's show a few weeks ago.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Long]

And it was so much fun. I never talked to him before. He was such a chill dude. And I'm like, wait a minute, I haven't had Ryan the show. It's way overdue. Ryan, you're obviously also successful touring comedian, which I want to talk to you about in a minute. When we were talking a little bit before we got started is, you know, I'm known as a troll. You're obviously a stand up comic. You make satirical videos as well. I feel like we're at a post satire era. When I was doing my book on North Korea and that was what, 2014. The book came out, I took all the ridiculousness there and I toned it down. And I'm like, this stuff is crazy enough. You don't need me to add gasoline to it. Because then it's hard to distinguish what are they saying versus what's Michael Malice trying to tweak it. And as we're recording, I just saw a characterization of a tweet by Trump. Then on Drudge, it's the big picture front and center. Trump tweeting a photo of himself as Christ healing some guy in a bed. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, I'm not Christian, I'm not religious particularly, but I can't wrap my Head around this because I've had memes where it's like, the Ayatollah and George Floyd hugging in heaven. And that on its face, is a ridiculous and funny image. And people know, okay, he's being ridiculous and funny. But with this one, I'm just like, I don't understand the thought process. And, like, sure, this is something that I would post to make fun of Trump.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With. I was saying his latest tweets was the sat. What people would say his tweets are like, oh, he's doing wrestling. His last tweets were 100% a wrestling promo where it's like, you're going to feel fire and wrath. Like, has never been before. This Sunday, only at WrestleMania, me versus the Ayatollah in a cage. You know, it's. Yeah. So you. A little bit. That is satire. And I'll say satire is, like, one of the things I do where, you know, you're kind of making a point by, you know, taking an extreme version of it. And satire is very pointed.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

Like, you're a lot of different. Comedy doesn't have to have, like, such a specific. The target of satire is, like, very. The more you can isolate it. Like, when people are doing bad satire, the question is, you go, what exactly are you making fun of? And they're like, well, sort of this, but sort of this. And you're like, well, yeah, because you haven't. You're actually not sure what your point is, but that's that specific genre, which I will agree. I've done more of the other things that I do in the last little bit because of that. So I actually felt that where you. It becomes an unnecessary. Like, satire is the most useful in certain times where it's. This is the time. Satire is the most useful, in my opinion, where it's like, there's something that needs to be said. Everyone's kind of afraid to say it. And satire becomes this, like, tool where you can. You can kind of, like, cut through that and say that, whether that be saying it too soon or whether that be saying it when people are afraid to. Right now is a time where there is no opinion you haven't heard. And it's. It's not like it's being yelled and screamed at you. So the idea of being like, maybe I'll say this thing. You're like, yeah, that guy's screaming it. So this kind of, you know, that specific tool becomes a little less useful. But that's only one of the many tools in comedy. So that would be my.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. But do you think we're at a point now where satire has become almost impossible because we're in this kind of self satire era?

[Michael Malice]

Well, I don't see a binary like that. I see it becomes useful and unuseful and useful and unusual in a cycle. But yeah, I mean, sat there sort of like opens the door. And then in America especially, everything always takes it to the. You know, everything gets commoditized in the extreme so fast. Like, think about when there was like a point people were probably saying three years ago that, like, you know, it's very important to have, like, open discussion. And. And. And that was true.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

Like, there was. People were having in different echo chambers and they weren't having those debates. And then it was kind of like, you know, people should be debating these things. And there was a little bit of that. Now every channel is like PIERS Morgan, like 50 pedophiles debate one newborn baby. And you go, it is. Every debate that should have ever happened is taking place. So things kind of go so fast, so far, and then I think people just kind of like, move away from it, and then it. And then you kind of forget, and then it becomes hard to say things again. And then satire becomes useful in a cycle.

[Ryan Long]

I think during the woke years, it was comedy free comedy gold for comics. Like, there was just so much stuff that you could just. Can't help yourself. It's just like a surplus of riches. But I just saw recently they were auditioning people for the reboot of Baywatch, and a girl showed up in a wheelchair. And it's like, that's the joke.

[Michael Malice]

Like.

[Ryan Long]

Like, where do you. It's not funnier to say that. Like an Indian lesbian in a wheelchair. It's like the wheelchair is the joke.

[Michael Malice]

They just have the Canada one where they. They were announcing the new, like, LGBTQ thing and they added murderers to it or people. Women that were murdered. And you go, yeah, you can't. It's hard to. Are you freezing again?

[Ryan Long]

No, no, no, you're fine. I'm raising my finger because. To correct you because it's not the. Mm. I was just had to go through some tomball you show trying to guess it. It was murdered and missing.

[Michael Malice]

So don't you black pill if you're just missing. Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

About Savannah Guthrie. She might still be alive. Do not tell me that woman has been murdered. She could be missing. God help us.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. So if you were. If you were to parody that and you're just like, okay, what's the new thing we're like, well, it's people that are gay. You know, a guy that's had a threesome, someone that was punched in the face. Like that is where they took, you know, like, a guy with one leg.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. What people don't realize. People don't know what Ryan's referring to. There was someone in Canada, some government official, I believe, and they rattled off the new Alphabet people, And it was MM, LGBTQ, QI, A2S plus. And I knew this last two thirds, but the MM I didn't know. And Tom was trying to challenge me to guess what it was, and it was. It was literally missing and murdered women and children or women.

[Michael Malice]

Doesn't that seem like insult to injury that you get murdered and then they call you gay?

[Ryan Long]

Do you know. Do you know who Fran Leibitz is? My second favorite public speaker?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. So she's this big. She's, like, in her 80s now. She's this big New York old lesbian. She's been a commentator since the. The seventies, and she does these talks, and people in the audience come up and ask her questions. That's the whole bit. And they asked her about, like, you know, gay rights versus, you know, civil rights. She goes, look, I don't think these two things are the same at all. And she goes, it's just shocking to me that the two institutions people want to get into as gay people are marriage in the military. And. And she's like, I remember when people used to pretend to be gay to get out of getting into the military. And to your point, during the 80s, people would rather die alone of AIDS than have people know that they're gay. And, like, talking to your point, insult to injury now, it's just like, oh, he's dead. He's probably. She's probably a lesbian.

[Michael Malice]

It's like, live these people alone. Yeah, you're basically part. You're not gay, but you're gay adjacent. Listen, you're murdered. It's same sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

I. I mean, do you think there's. This is just gonna get. Is there like a. At a. At some point, is the truck gonna hit a wall? Are they gonna pull back? Where do you see this going?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that. Well, both happen simultaneously because the normal people get off the train, and then. Then the train becomes a fringe thing. And as that. And then that fringe thing goes even further, but it becomes less relevant while it's doing that. So it kind of. So things get crazier, but they also become, you know, I've always. Even when I think of, like, comedy, what I'm really trying to make fun of a lot of times is something that I find to be incorrect that generally people believe are going along with. Once I find, like, 70% of people don't think this, well, then it becomes like, you could look at goths or something, like, they're furries, right? Like, you can be. You can be like, look how crazy this thing is. But it's really not a pressing issue. You're just saying, like, hey, there's this group of people, and they're crazy. The. What feels like satire is necessary is when, like. And everyone's going along with it, right? So right. To me, it becomes increasingly irrelevant and crazier. But in that, it becomes, who cares? Like, if there's just this small group that's doing this crazy thing on a farm, who cares? They're allowed to. Right?

[Ryan Long]

You know, it's funny. I want to. I'm on Fox a lot, and one of my favorite moments, I was on Gutfeld, and I got to explain to that Fox audience the difference in a furry and a plushie. And for those who don't know, the furries are the people who dress up in suits and have intercourse with each other. The plushies are the ones who have sex with stuffed animals. So, yeah, don't confuse the two. I'm sure they hate each other, too, but it's just like. Yeah, like, it's. Oh, my God.

[Michael Malice]

Danny. Were talking about in the furry department, there was a rift because there's these Christian furries.

[Ryan Long]

No.

[Michael Malice]

And Right.

[Ryan Long]

No.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, here we are.

[Ryan Long]

Here we are. This is exactly what I was looking for.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Ryan Long]

Oh, my God.

[Michael Malice]

There's a big riff before you go on.

[Ryan Long]

I've told this story a million times. I'll tell it again because this is my brain right now. There was a video I saw many years ago of a Canadian journalist, and he went back to North Korea, and he's at the ostrich ranch outside Pyongyang with his two guides, a male and a woman Canadian guy, ostriches, two North Korean guides. And he's like, last time I was here, I asked you guys about, you know, gays and lesbians. He's like. The guy's like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, what about bisexuals? And the guy just goes, what? And like, this is where I am right now. Okay. Of course. Please educate me.

[Michael Malice]

Well, Christian furries are going through it, right? Because. So there's a big rift in the community, no.

[Ryan Long]

Is there?

[Michael Malice]

Well, yeah. Yeah, there Was there was a lot of articles about this and there was. This was maybe a year ago. Me and Danny were always talking about it. But so essentially there was a rift between. Well, the normal furries are like, yeah, I like to dress up and as an animal and potentially have sex with each other. I'm not some God freak. You know what I mean? Right. So they were, they would have this rift and then there was the God furries that didn't, you know, they had to kind of be in the closet about the fact that they were reading the Bible, right. And he was like, that better be the guide to bestiality. He's got the Bible. So they. And then they sort of broke off. And then a lot of it's Reddit threads, right? Reddit groups. And then basically the Reddit group starts to have like a big beef. And then they need to start their own Reddit group. And then they have the furry Reddit group and then the, the Christian furry Reddit group. And that's where the most of it takes place online. But it was also conventions. Then they have a speaker and they're like, we can't let this God freak speak at our furry convention. So they. But I mean, it is hilarious to be super into God. And also I want to be a furry, but I am.

[Ryan Long]

So I'm. Of the question I have for myself is the Christian furries, do they only dress up as lions and lambs or is it the opposite that you're not allowed to dress up like a lion or a lamb? Because that's blasphemy.

[Michael Malice]

You're saying it's blasphemy. I think they're honoring those animals that's in the furry community. So that's a top honor to be dressed up as.

[Ryan Long]

No, but then they're, they're trying to drip like it's blasphemous to present yourself as Christ. Right. So I can see them saying you. I could see their further rift between the, the lambkin.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Ryan Long]

And the ones who regard the lamb stuff as sacrilegious.

[Michael Malice]

Well, every group ever. It's almost like I was kind of thinking this about, like Twitter the other day, where, you know, usually a group is fighting other people and then as soon as you kind of remove that, they just immediately start fighting themselves. Like, think about how, like Elon Musk, when Twitter got taken over, it kind of became more of the right wing platform and that was sort of the split, like, and was that, I'd say. So you took the, like, you took more. Most of the Liberals off the platform in a big way. So it became mostly a right leaning platform. What did that take, six months for them to split right down the middle and start fighting?

[Ryan Long]

Well, you know, it's, there's two points to that. There's a book called the Nurture Assumption, and the author, I forget her name, she points out that humans define themselves by opposition. So if you have an event and it's adults and kids, the kids perceive themselves as kids. The second the adults leave, it becomes boys and girls.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Long]

You, you. And this is why, like negative politics works. Because all I have to prove is I'm not that guy. And that guy sucks. Okay? I'm on your team. It's, it's. And I wrote a whole book about this called the New Right, which is the only thing these people had in common was hating progressives. You remove the progressives, they're at each other's throats because that, that was their only unifier.

[Michael Malice]

Yes. And I kind of, I think that a lot. And even if you remove like any political thing in comedy, you know, like alt comedy or kind of, you know, comedy, that's almost like making fun of comedy.

[Ryan Long]

Right. My favorite comedian is Neil Hamburger.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. And that stuff can be very good. That being said, in my opinion, it's more of a young guy comedy. Right.

[Ryan Long]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

And, and a part of that is because you have all these like, you know, 21 year olds, let's say, and you're like this very, very funny.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

And they kind of see the tropes of what's bad about current comedy and they're able to make fun of it.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

But when you've been doing comedy for 15 years, the expectation is for you to like, well, now you have to show me what's the better thing. Yeah, yeah. There is a, there is a point where it stops being cute to point out what's wrong and it starts being like, well, you can't do it better. So you know, you're. So you can't just be that. So I always think that. And very much like comedy that's making fun of comedy is like a young guy format. Even in, you know, when you're making fun of tropes and stuff, like the cop shows where it's like, you know, rigs came in like at some point that doesn't exist anymore and you're making fun of something that doesn't exist. And it's kind of the onus is on you to now make the new thing because you're saying the old culture is Bad. Well, now at some point you got to be like, well, what's the new thing that you think is better?

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. You don't want to end up like Comic Book Guy.

[Michael Malice]

You're right.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

That is a good way to put it. You just end up being the guy that's. That sucks. That sucks. That sucks. And you go, what do you like? I remember, I have some friends like that. I remember in a chat group, and he was telling me about, like, I think it was like, intellectual. Let's. I don't know, public intellectuals or whatever. Like, he really hated Peterson or whatever, right? And then he was like, but this guy sucks. And he was. And I can't think of all of them, like, let's say Scott Adams or let's say, you know, whatever the left. Like left wing ones. And. And then he was, this guy sucks. And I was like, oh, what do you think of this guy? He goes, I hate him. And he goes, what do you think this guy? He goes, well, at some point, you're just not into that. Which is fine.

[Ryan Long]

Right?

[Michael Malice]

Which is fine. But it is if you're not into that. It does seem funny to be like, it's a really big part of my life, but I hate every single one all over.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's my friend Lux. She. She. I haven't talked to her in many years. She was part of the whole tech scene. And her advice to me and to everyone was, if someone brings up an app or website that you don't know anything about, just say, I was on that for a while. It sucked.

[Michael Malice]

That's all you say. And you could pass it any conversation.

[Ryan Long]

But to your point, are you familiar with Sturgeon's Law? No, I forget. I don't even know his first name. This is one of the smartest things I've ever heard.

[Michael Malice]

My guess is Sturgeon.

[Ryan Long]

What's that?

[Michael Malice]

I said, my guess is Sturgeon.

[Ryan Long]

Yes. Sci fi was first coming up. It came out of the pulp magazines. It was really trashy. It really was regarded as kind of like almost like romance novel esque in terms of literary quality. And Sturgeon came up with Sturgeon's Law. He goes, Look, 80% of anything is crud. Or now it's. It's called 80% of everything is shit. And his point was, yeah, like 20% of sci fi is going to be great. And 80% of it, just like every single is going to be complete garbage. Podcasts, politics, comedy, whatever, and you. And same thing with public intellectuals. Yeah. Like, it's easy to point those 80% who suck, who are your 20? Like, who are the ones who are like, okay, even if they're not great, it's like, it's more of a benefit than a cost. And I'm much more interested in that, especially as someone who's like, Mr. White Pill. Because it's so easy to find. You know, if you're, if you're digging for gold, there's a lot of dirt. You got to find that gold. It's not going to be on that

[Michael Malice]

surface that used to use. It used to always, like, annoy me when, when kind of in the, like 2018 era, people would always want to get me on a podcast and say that you can't do comedy anymore. And I was, and I was just like, what do you think I do every night? Like, if anything you go, if anything, comedy, it's there. The industry has a lot of, you know, governors and constraints, but the idea that, like, comedy clubs are, I can't do that. I go, but I do every single night. And it would. And you could tell them that and they would still be like, yeah, but I'd like to think that you can't. So it's, it's kind of, it's like not helpful to be white pilled, to be honest.

[Ryan Long]

Don't you think there's a bit of narcissism with that, where people feel the need to feel like they're personally being persecuted and up against it and therefore makes them inherently courageous?

[Michael Malice]

That is for sure true. But I would say as a cultural rule, I would add a slight tweak where I would say that it's more about that most things are only useful to people insofar as they push forward. What they want to push forward. Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, so I used to, I kind of had a funny thing with like, you know, you could say about comedy, but almost anything. I think if this analogy kind of works, like, think about, like, if you go to like a basketball game and they have this sort of like cheerleader halftime show, right? For the cheerleaders, that's like a big deal. But for everyone else, like, oh, yeah, we like the halftime show. But if there was any inkling of like, oh, they're taking too long to get ready, so we might have to push the thing back for 45 seconds. Okay, we'll cancel the show. We have to. You know what? We're going to have to change the lighting. Cancel, like, for. If this thing, we all kind of like it, as long as it in any way, shape or form annoys what we actually want are here for. So I think that a lot of people kind of look at art that way.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, like, I like it as long as I'm not inconvenienced by this in

[Michael Malice]

the slightest or even remotely pushes forward something that I don't like, you know?

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, it's, it's. It's one. I, I play on that a lot on Twitter, where I know if I use certain keywords or terms, that's all people are going to perceive. Their mousetraps in their heads are going to go off and it'll be a perfectly coherent sentence to everybody else and they'll be like, this is what he's saying at all. But if there's any critique, if I use the word conservative in any slightly negative way, even if it's a critique, every conservative, if they took a deep breath, would agree with, like, conservatives would be better if they did this, this, and this would help them achieve their goals, which is useful and factual criticism. I'm a leftist. This. But they just rattle things off and it's kind of scary. I don't. For a lot of people to see. It's like, these people vote as much as you. They walk in the streets as much as you. They're as important as you, in a sense, in this country, and there's no one home.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think you handle it the right way. And the right way is if you're, you know, in the media sphere and you're doing funny stuff or commentary, like the. If, if you were in marketing and you kind of are like, oh, people are like, easy to, you know, congeal into different and kind of make them buy my product. You're not like. And I hate that. You know what I mean? Like, there is an element of, like, that is human nature, that people are like that. And those are big pockets of energy. So like, you know, as a comedian or something, you kind of are. You look at these big pockets of energy and it's very easy to sort of make them act a certain way and then you have the ability to do that, you know. So it's kind of is weird to sort of. For people that are, like, angry about that, it is. There is points where I can see why it's annoying. But you have to look at reality as reality. Like, human nature is human nature to look at people. And there is. It is possible that 20% or some people have even probably said that 90% don't think for themselves or whatever. You know, people have thrown out different numbers on that and you go, that is reality. So then whatever you're doing, you have to take that into consideration. You're like the 90% is a mob that can be manipulated. And then there's 10% of people, then there's tastemakers. And that's like the landscape that you're working to, to either get your message across or just stir shit up, whatever you're trying to do at that moment.

[Ryan Long]

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[Michael Malice]

I, I, I would say that, like I, I kind of feel like I probably that sort of stuff. I'm into it the way that I am into crypto, where it's like, I know it to some degree. I have like a fairly reasonable libertarian kind of knowledge. But I couldn't tell you what happened in the Fountainhead. Like, I kind of forget you kind of.

[Ryan Long]

Have you read it?

[Michael Malice]

I think I've read. Oh, no. What? I've read Atlas Shrugged. I have not read the Fountainhead.

[Ryan Long]

Ugh, dude, you blew your wad. Like, yeah, because the Fountainhead is a much better book, but if you read

[Michael Malice]

it, I'm going to blow your mind. I think I watched the movie Atlas

[Ryan Long]

Shrugged,

[Michael Malice]

by the way. Not a good movie.

[Ryan Long]

No, no, there's three of them. I, I couldn't get through the first one.

[Michael Malice]

Well, that's. You get the point. It's like, I don't know if you need four. You're like, yeah, yeah. When they raise the taxes way too high, people move. And you're like, what if we explained that to you in eight hours, dude.

[Ryan Long]

She's got like a 20 page speech about where money comes from and she's right. And it's useful, but it's not exactly good watching on the screen.

[Michael Malice]

Right, Yeah. I mean that like political propaganda, whether it's good or bad, whether you agree with it or don't agree with it, probably doesn't make the best movies.

[Ryan Long]

But no to your. What you were saying before she was very. The premise of the Fountainhead, which I would encourage you to read because it's a very good book. Although I don't know if you read it as an adult, maybe it's not, it's not going to hit the same, certainly. But it's this idea of you have these kind of independent creators and they're up against the mob and that is the history of mankind. And Roark, the hero of the book, that's exactly what he has to do. And one of the points he makes, he goes, I will never be hired by any committee or there's some like little list of things. But his point is I'll find that one on one great mind. But if we're dealing with a group, I'm out, like they're not going to get what I'm going for and we don't have the numbers.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, well, yeah, I believe that like objectivism in its core is that. Does that. Is that the moving in your self interest essentially is actually, I mean it's. Is it not just this is what I. You know what, you're probably more of an expert on this stuff than me is what is the difference between that and just describing markets?

[Ryan Long]

I think that's a great question. There's Rand right there on the book cover.

[Michael Malice]

Nice.

[Ryan Long]

I sortie with the body. I can I tell you, before I answer your question, a great Rand. Yeah, Rand. Autism story. So ayn rand. In 1957, Atlas Shrugged was published, right? And her husband and her friends got decided to throw her a little surprise party, right? So her husband says to her, hey, I'm taking you to a dinner at. I think it was either the rich or the Waldorf. And she gets all dolled up and puts on her lipstick and it goes there. It opens the doors. Everyone from Random House to publisher and all her crew were there and they go, surprise. And, you know, Ayn Rand says, I do not approve of surprises. She's sitting there fuming in her autism, and they're there to celebrate her great accomplishment. This book took her a decade to write. It just came out. Everyone there loves her, supports her. She's miserable. And the one thing that her. According to her biographer, Barbara Brandon, the one thing that kind of calmed her down, there's a motif and Atlas Shrugged of these cigarettes with a dollar sign on them. So they had made custom cigarette boxes of cigarettes with the dollar sign on the cigarettes, and it says, who is John Galt they know at Random House. And they pass those out. I have one of those boxes upstairs in my house.

[Michael Malice]

Nice being.

[Ryan Long]

It's just really kind of funny that, like, that. That anger, even in this happy moment. So Rand would say, self interest is your ethics and free market is your politics. And it also speaks to what Adam Smith said about that line about, it's not for the benevolence of the butcher alone that we're getting the quality meat. It's to serve his interests. But the thing is, she uses self interest in a very broad and idiosyncratic way. So, for example, if I have a friend in the hospital and I go and I help him and, you know, take care of them for a day and just hold his hand through the night so they're not alone, she would regard that as selfishness or self interest because you value this person and you want to be there for them. And all of that stuff is literally true. But it's not really what people mean when they say selfish. You know what I mean? What they really mean is they're like, you know what? They're suffering. That's their problem. I'm looking out for number one. So, yeah, like, yeah, you should look.

[Michael Malice]

I see what you're saying. Like, if it's one of those theories that to some degree you can. You can always twist it around to make it work. You know what I mean? Where you go, you did this thing and you go, well, that was technically in your self interest to give that guy $100 when you didn't have $100. Because it made you feel like I was going to think of that with. There was a. I have, like, a philosophy friend who's like a philosophy professor, and I sometimes argue him about this and that. And there was kind of like a. Was it. I guess this is the opposite of. That would sort of be like Marx to some degree. And his argument was that wealth, you know, a lot of times like wealth is all exploitated. Exploitative. Right. So, okay, you know, I'm sort of struggling through this. But. So then you go, okay, well, what if I had a company with no employees where I invented, like, a tech. I have no employees. The. The product only helps people, and I became, like a multimillionaire. How would that be exploited?

[Ryan Long]

Like an Etsy shop.

[Michael Malice]

And they go, yeah, how would that be exploited if they're like, well, the Internet that you're using was exploit, right? So you have to. It's like. It's this theory that you go, well, I just have to find one piece somewhere that was exploit. So everything is built on exploitation. And you go, okay. So then you're doing somersaults to make that theory work. And I think that it maybe feels a little the same way where to say that if I have, like. If I have, like, a family member that is going through a rough time, I maybe don't know them that like. But I've, you know, and I've had this in my life where I've given a large sum of money to someone, and you know what? They're probably not going to pay me back. And I don't. It's not like I want to do this. And I don't know if it made me feel good as much as I feel it out of a sense of duty. So maybe then you could say, well, you're honoring your duty, so you get to live with your principles, which makes you feel. And you go, I think we're. I think that's not a good theory at that point.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, the Marx point. I think it makes a lot more sense when there's like, one factory in a town, one guy owns it. And if you're not working for the factory, you're basically homeless and can't feed your kids. You can understand his argument about, like, you know, the means of production being held by the capitalists. Like, it's coherent in that specific context. But like I just said earlier, if. Now I'm at the point where I. Or you. You make your comedy special, you put it out on YouTube, people want to watch it, great. If they don't, that's fine, too. You don't care if they like some other comedian, More power to them.

[Michael Malice]

Right, Right.

[Ryan Long]

Who's being heard here? I'm making people. I'm helping people laugh. If they don't like it, they don't have to. I get money, they get laughs, or they pay your fee or the ticket cost, whatever. Who's being heard. And if you Make a ton of money, more power. Who's being hurt here?

[Michael Malice]

Well, I brought that up to people and they describe like, well, the building that you're in was built on it

[Ryan Long]

kind of that ready. It's been built. That's the point. Right. You know, it's not like you're building it for your comedy special.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah. And more important, you know, I was kind of thinking whenever I think of comedy versus philosophy, sociology and probably the way. And probably to be honest, you do a lot of this, like even in, you know, the way that you are on Twitter and stuff like that, where comedy is sort of. How can I make like the most complicated point? Simple.

[Ryan Long]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Like in the least words. Where I've like, you know exactly what I'm talking about. In the least words. Whereas maybe philosophy or more academic. Or academic disciplines is more. How can I be the most precise where it actually didn't. You go, I actually haven't have addressed every criticism I've. And you go, this book's twice as long. And you go, yeah, but it's 4% more precise. And that's. So who cares which one's longer? And I guess that is the difference. Whereas I'm more interested in the. The former, which is like, how can I take a complicated concept that, you know, especially something that no one's really properly like explained, where you did in five seconds and you go, ah, yeah, that's, you know, that's the, that's so true, really, is you've taken something very complicated and sometimes it might be like a satirical tweet, sometimes it's a joke, whatever it might be, where you've kind of like summarized this whole thing into a small little package that people can wrap their head around quickly.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, My, my buddy Jeremy Ruby Strauss, who's an editor who kind of gave me my first co authoring book, he also discovered Neil Strauss, no relation. And he's the one who told me to write the game. And so I knew about this whole pickup artist space, you know, years ago and that whole lore and a lot of that stuff gets shit on, but it's really useful for people who are socially awkward to learn how to talk to other humans. It's framed in a way for men picking up females, but it really just works for interpersonal.

[Michael Malice]

It's being used for evil, but that doesn't make it not true.

[Ryan Long]

Right, right. And it's, it's also a lot of

[Michael Malice]

times I did quotations for the listeners.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's just a lot of. It gets A bad rap. But it's like, there's high quality young men who don't know how to talk to other people and they're given techniques so they're not feel so awkward and shy. That's a good thing. Even though, like any tool, it has a nefarious use. And I think it's kind of degenerating to this whole current looks, maxing space. And I was looking at it and I was just like, you're kind of like shaking my head. And then to narrow it down to one sense, I'm like, young men are being told unironically that the best way to get laid is to make themselves more attractive to other men. But that's what that whole space is. And not only that, there's a huge disincentive in that space for pair bonding, which is one of the most healthy and beautiful aspects of being a human being. Because if you're one of these dudes and you get a girlfriend, you're out. You have nothing to teach me anymore because you're not in this kind of like, like shoal of fish looking for prey or whatever.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, that's always dark. The pickup artist that's been married for like 15 years still, and you're just like, yeah. And it is, it is. I watch Mystery on the Internet on Instagram, and he makes me laugh so much because he's along.

[Ryan Long]

He's still there.

[Michael Malice]

He does Instagram? Yeah, he does. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He probably gets private events, but they talk about. The way that they talk about things is they use all the lingo. And he was doing an interview where they go, how did you meet your wife? And he was like, well, I was doing a two set and I self selected her. But just at your wedding, describing how you met using the pickup artist lingo is just like the funniest thing.

[Ryan Long]

I think that there's a. I know, sure. You know, there's. There's a utility to having jargon because a, instantly you have in group versus out group. And second, I can sell my courses because the more terms I have in my verbiage, the more it sounds like I've got this hidden arcana. And you know, you get to learn about it. So give me $5 for one hour course. I always imagine Mystery going to a deli and being like, hey, hey, what can I get you, buddy? Sandwich? And it's like, that surprise me. It's just because he was actually a magician. That's how Eric von Mark.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, I know they love the card they love the card trick. That's why. But they do these conferences where it's also, you know, these are. I have two points. The first point is he does these conferences, which is just funny to me that it'll be a bunch of guys that are bad with women, you know, just at a bar with a wacky hat on, doing card tricks to tricks and you know, I mean, but that there is a looksmaxing thing where I think that a lot of those cultures, they're, you know, Jordan Peterson, I used to say he was, he was a very useful guy for people that are, you know, in the bottom 20% and how to get them to 50%. But I found it not actually that useful for, you know, Tony Robbins. His whole thing is how to get someone from 95% to 97%. Right. So they were talking to different people and in looks maxing and all in all, a lot of those cultures if for, for how good looking a guy is there most women, that's binary where they have kind of like, you check up, it's like a box the check like, oh, he's good looking and, and you get a little extra points maybe. But like really not. It was like, most guys are like, does he have enough money? Is he, is he good looking enough? Like I would say in my friend group or growing up or playing in bands or all this stuff, there was a bit of a variance between, you know, even guys that were successful and popular or whatever but were good looking versus not good looking. But like, if you take above like 7.5 out of 10, there was actually almost zero correlation between whether 7.9 got more girls than 8.3.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, I was talking to Milken cooks who are a couple of DJs who were like on the Trump train. And they were identical twins and they're models, right? So they look like flawless Ken dolls. And they're like. And I thought it was cope and it's not because they're not the only people I've heard this from. They're like, at this. When you like professionally pretty girls are suspicious of you and, and they think

[Michael Malice]

so there'd be negatives at a point.

[Ryan Long]

At a certain point it's, it's, it's counterproductive because they're like, they know I can talk to any chick I want. It's going to be much harder for me to convince her that this is you someone actually want to invest time with. They know I've got all these other options. So I'm actually finding like, yeah, it's Going to be easier to approach, but in terms of that, pair bonding. And I'll add to that.

[Michael Malice]

So I'll. I'm not. I know we're turning this into a pickup artist tutorial, but I'll add. I'll add to that that when you are like that, you make men suspicious.

[Ryan Long]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Men's opinions affect how. What girls think of you.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. I remember I was at Rogan's mothership opening night. I was in the green room and it was just, you know, Tim Dillon, Tony's there, you know, Roseanne is there, Ron White. It was just an amazing time. I'm sitting there keeping my mouth shut. I'm like, you're a guest here. Know your place. And a guy who's friends with me and Rogan walks in. He's like in his 40s and he's like a bodybuilder. Right. And the energy in the room again, just immediately turned outsider. And it was in quiet hostility. The nicest guy, super chill, zero attitude. You know, this isn't someone, some guy in high school getting your face could be friendlier. But the room turned and like, this is something that I think this looks. Maxing space doesn't talk about. It's that when you are. That when you're an outlier, people don't like it.

[Michael Malice]

Right. They. They're suspicious of it. And you know, there is a little bit rightfully so. Like, it's not based on nothing. Like, if you have a buddy that's obsessed with his. Like, you're like, it's. He's not normal in every aspect. There is something going on there that is rightful to be. Like, that guy's a little weird, you know, so there's. And women's opinions of what other people think of a guy. You know, if you have a group of friends and the woman shows up and this guy's clearly like the weirdo of the group versus this guy's clearly like the leader of the group. The fact that he's, you know, 30% more handsome if you. If everyone's already reasonable, you know, reasonably good looking, it's like it's irrelevant. And if it's not actually like you're saying, it's not irrelevant, it's a negative.

[Ryan Long]

So you're. And to the thing we're saying earlier about Rand, I. I guess I could steal that in the sense that like. Yeah. If the way I put it is what kind of person do you want to be? Right. You lend your family member money. You're not expecting to get it back. I want to be that reliable person. I want to be someone who's a giver and not a taker and I want to be someone who kind of, you know, has that stability. So there is that kind of selfish self image aspect to it. But again, she was asked about this on.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, but what about someone that's like, what about someone that's a sociopath?

[Ryan Long]

What about them?

[Michael Malice]

How would them moving in their self interest be a benefit to society?

[Ryan Long]

Well, first of all, benefit society. That term has no meaning in Randy Randism. Okay, gotcha. I think her point is I don't know how sociopath operate because they're obviously mentally ill. But I think the thing is if you're just constantly. One of her points is you can't really hide from the man in the mirror. Right. So if I'm someone in every single one of my relationships and she's right about this, if I'm a human being and every single one of my relationships is based on deception and fraud, I'm not going to look in the mirror. Maybe at some point I'll be like, haha, I'm getting over on these people

[Michael Malice]

and it'll catch up to you.

[Ryan Long]

But also it's crippling because you're so alone. Because if you have one person that you could be yourself around, you must be a really terrible human being that no one sees you for you and likes that and you have to constantly be in disguise. That is dark.

[Michael Malice]

And I also think if there's in addition to that level of crippling being someone that lives without some sort of code.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Probably just really hard on a human brain as well.

[Ryan Long]

Unless you're every.

[Michael Malice]

In every. Yeah. Because otherwise every single decision you make has to be made independently.

[Ryan Long]

Yes. Well, she has a book which is a collection of essays named after the title essay called Philosophy who Needs It? Spoiler. The answer is everyone. And her point is you have to have this code because how are you going to get through life? And like to your point, like it's like you're rebooting your brain every five minutes. That's not human behavior. That's how animals work.

[Michael Malice]

100%. So yeah, I always, I think that like as a dude even like comedically, you know, and then you're, you don't have to think about it because your code becomes your. What you describe as your instincts. At some point, you know, you don't have to think like. But I have lots of times where I do a joke for every in by every metric. It's working. It's like getting more laughs than my average it. But. But something inside me doesn't like it. And you know, at this point, I don't really have to spend so much time intellectualizing about it. I can kind of trust my instincts of. I don't like that. If I do try to intellectualize, I can usually get to the bottom of why I'm feeling that way.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

But when you're moving fast, it's unnecessary. It's like an unnecessary step to do.

[Ryan Long]

I. I remember I was on Gutfeld not that long ago and I said some quip and they applauded. And I'm like, oh God, I got clapped her. I felt so dirty. Like, I want you to laugh. I want you to sit silently in confusion. Don't applaud because I feel like that's like the lowest, like playing to the crowd crap and I hate that shit.

[Michael Malice]

No, I know. I used to have a lot of jokes where I would make people applaud and then switch it on them. Like I would. Yeah, like the whole. So then the purpose of the doing that was to now twist them again.

[Ryan Long]

Neil Hamburger had this great joke where this was during the 2000s. He'd say, can we agree that George Bush is the worst president ever? And of course, like seals and goes, which makes it strange that his son, George W. Bush, is in fact the best.

[Michael Malice]

And that's great.

[Ryan Long]

They'd be fuming. That's exactly the kind of thing you talk about.

[Michael Malice]

What I used to do a thing where I was talking about like women and men and I would, I would kind of get people on board with the idea that like, people want to say men are hornier, but like women are actually just as horny than men. Like ladies clap. If you think in 2000, whatever, women can be just as horny as guys. And then when women would clap, I say, now that we've identified where all the hoes are at, just,

[Ryan Long]

hey folks, Michael Malice here. And I just got back from Los Angeles and boy, are my arms tired because I went to the gym. But I want to talk to you about fast growing trees because one things you might know that I like is plants. I've got 400 plant species in my house. And when I went to la, went to different nurseries, didn't find stuff I wanted. But this website really has the stuff that you like because they're going to be able to have so many more choices than the stuff you're going to find at any store. And it's going to be stuff that's cool at A great price. So they're all grown with care, guaranteed to arrive healthy. And their alive and thrive guarantee means you don't have to have a green thumb. The thing that's really cool about their site is if you know what zone you are, which takes one second to find out, you'll be able to find plants that work for your environment. Did you know that cherry trees need to freeze in order to blossom? That's why you have them in like Washington and Japan. But you're not going to have them making cherries in the south. So I think that's really cool. You don't need a big yard. You need a lot of space. You can grow lemon, avocado, olive, fig trees. It's kind of cool to have your own lemons that you grew yourself. I don't know why, but it really is a thing. And the experts at fast growing trees have curated thousands of plants for every climate and growing zone. So right now they got great deals on spring planting essentials, up to half off on select plants. Listeners to Our Show Get 20% off the first purchase when using code welcome at checkout. They've got support seven days a week. Email chatter, phone. Don't tell me you don't have a green thumb. You just didn't get the right plant. It's like saying, I don't know how to wear pants. No, you just didn't get the right pants. 20% off. Better plants, better growing fast growingtrees.com use code welcome at checkout fast growingtrees.com code welcome. Now is true is the perfect time to plant. Trees are waking up from their winter dormancy. Let's grow together. Use welcome to save today. Offer valve for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply Every single day, every single episode of the show has one thing in common. A, I'm insufferable and B, I'm wearing sheath underwear. The first time I tried on sheath underwear, I'm like, what the f is this stuff? It's got two pouches. One for one part of your male anatomy, one for another part of your male anatomy. I'm like, is this some sick joke? No, it is pleasure and support and it keeps you cool in the summer and keeps you snug when you need it most. And whenever you're talking to someone, you can sit there and smile to yourself, knowing your underwear is grabbing your junk. After trying sheath, you never go back to those old and tired brands. I speak from experience. They've also got bamboo shirts. I wear their T shirts to the gym. They've got hoodies. I will not be caught in a hoodie, even at gunpoint. This is not a hoodie friendly podcast. Take that crap elsewhere. Go to sheath.com use promo code malice today you get 20% off and you could be one step closer being underwear model just like myself. My obliques are coming back in in this cut. I'm really happy with it. Sheath.com promo code M A L I C E for 20% off. Sheath is the unwear of legends. You'll try it once. Just try it. And you're like, oh, this is the one thing Mouse actually gets right. You're welcome. Thank you. Let's get back to the show.

[Michael Malice]

What?

[Ryan Long]

Okay, what is your. Every comic has this, and I'm always curious. There must be a joke you have that you love that you could never land and you could never get it right.

[Michael Malice]

You know, I do have a few of these that over the years that I've made land.

[Ryan Long]

Oh, okay. Tell me about one of them.

[Michael Malice]

I have jokes. I had a joke that was on my last special that I'd been trying to make work for 10 years.

[Ryan Long]

Holy crap.

[Michael Malice]

And legitimately, it was one of those things where every single time I was writing, you know, every month, I would kind of go through notes and be like, fuck, that's so funny. And then I would go on stage, I would kind of get it to work a little bit. I'm like, yeah. And then after a month, I'd go, well, that was the reason I let it go last time.

[Ryan Long]

You're right.

[Michael Malice]

And I just never, ever made it work. And it was this ability. Okay, so that it was something about, like, not everything has to be equal. And, and because so if you have sex with someone that's like, super mentally, like, that is illegal. Do you know what I mean?

[Ryan Long]

Is it?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Like, you can't, like, you can, like, as a dude, you can't just like, find a woman that's in a wheelchair that like, has IQ of 40 and then have sex with her. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Long]

I don't know what you mean. I thought you can.

[Michael Malice]

Well, no, the. Okay, so let's say if someone has the brain of like a two year old, that is illegal.

[Ryan Long]

You mean a woman. Sex with women's illegal.

[Michael Malice]

I better tell them sex with women's illegal.

[Ryan Long]

Thanks, Obama.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, they really are radicalizing me. But yeah, like, okay, there would always be these. There would be a lot of cases where it would be something like this. It would be a man that ran like a. I don't even Know what you'd call it a. He ran a group of people where it was like a home for people that are mentally retarded. Right. And like, it's half. They call that a halfway house, don't they?

[Ryan Long]

Or halfway house is if you get

[Michael Malice]

out of jail, this is what you're halfway. Like you're not.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. Like, they have these. They have these. And I think these are great. These are people with special needs, but they love independence. So I think it's a wonderful thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

There's certain people there that are, you know, a woman that would. She basically can't consent is the idea. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Long]

Can I say one thing? There's this ice cream shop. There's one in Dallas. They have them in the supermarket, and it's staffed entirely by mentally handicapped people.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

When you go to the store, they

[Michael Malice]

have a hierarchy talking.

[Ryan Long]

No, that's the whole point. There's a hierarchy. So the guy with down syndrome is the manager, and he's got it together.

[Michael Malice]

Interesting.

[Ryan Long]

And then the guy scooping is like. Like a two year old. And the down syndrome guy is really. I saw this my own eyes. Really frustrated that this other guy can't get his shit together. How hard is it?

[Michael Malice]

Just scoop the end screen.

[Ryan Long]

Beautiful to see.

[Michael Malice]

And he's like, I'm mentally retarded. And he's like, yeah, so am I. Like, yeah, deal with it.

[Ryan Long]

I'm the same way. Yeah, no, finish.

[Michael Malice]

You're the joke. Well. Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Long]

So.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I've turned it into a whole thing eventually, and I made it work. But the. The joke is that not everything has to be equal because we make laws to help women so men don't take advantage of these, like, mentally handicapped women. Do we ever need that? The other way around where a guy was like, okay, so, you know, your life sucks. You're in this Stephen Hawking wheelchair. Good news. We just made it illegal for a woman to you. That's kind of.

[Ryan Long]

You know, Hawking went to Epstein to help you.

[Michael Malice]

Sorry, say it again.

[Ryan Long]

Did you know Stephen Hawking went to Epstein Island?

[Michael Malice]

I know. Yeah. Some people. Apparently when he went there, he was walking normal, and that's how good it was.

[Ryan Long]

Wait, so I got. So I've always described comedy as kind of like. Like, people say, this isn't funny. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's like cooking some ingredients. Like, if you're dealing with, like, tripe, it's gonna be a lot harder to make work than a steak. Right. And like, if you're Dealing with dark, dark sided stuff. It's really gonna be hard to get over in a crowd when you're trying to frame this joke. Was that one of the reasons why it wasn't working? Because the framing is so like, oh, that a lot of people didn't want to go there with you?

[Michael Malice]

No, that's why the joke was probably to start a level of difficulty because it was a hard thing to make work. But really it was just. I could never bring it to the next level. You know, it was like, it's. It's one of those things that starts at like a. I could get it to a six and I could never get it to a nine. Every different direction I tried. It was everything I tried and it was just. Never got past being like just what I just told you. And then. Yeah, but yeah, there is that. When you say things are not funny at all, do you think that there's anything that you could say objectively, like. No. Objectively, that's not particularly funny.

[Ryan Long]

No.

[Michael Malice]

Like the way that you could say there's rules of scripts where, like objectively that doesn't work. Because I sort of agree with you. But it's almost like you can, there's rules, but you can break them.

[Ryan Long]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

Is that kind of what you're saying?

[Ryan Long]

Like if something is so taboo, you can make fun the people who are bothered by the taboo at least.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, I have a whole page in my book. Then you write about a topic or

[Michael Malice]

is that a joke?

[Ryan Long]

No. What do you mean? Like if I can make. You can. I can't think of. I have a whole page in my book. Then you write about like every effed up situation and a joke about it. So I can't think of anything. Like, like I did stand up a couple times and I'd say, hey, who wants to hear some rape jokes? And they'd applaud. I go, no, you're supposed to know. You're supposed to yell at no, stop. Like, yeah, yeah, that's not. That's a rape joke. On, in and of itself, that's not particularly funny. But that's, that's an easy one.

[Michael Malice]

Like what you said the joke was funny. You're the quest. The question. I believe that where I'm saying that you're describing there can be funny jokes on any topic. Yeah, but can a joke be objectively not funny?

[Ryan Long]

But any joke could be objectively not funny. What do you mean?

[Michael Malice]

Oh, I thought that, that when someone. I thought the argument that you were making was when someone says, that's not funny. But something can be objectively not funny. Just the topic. Right. So if someone does a joke, you could be like, objectively, that joke doesn't work as a joke and it's not funny.

[Ryan Long]

Correct. But I think a lot of times people also, human beings have, most people have no introspection and they cannot distinguish between, I don't find this funny and it is not funny.

[Michael Malice]

That's correct. Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

Topics like, let's suppose I have, you know, my uncle died of diabetes or something and you got your riffing on insulin. It's going to trigger something in me, like an emotional response and I'm not, it's not going to work for me. And if I had some self awareness that could be like, oh, you know what, this is because of my Uncle Ryan, you know, go kill it. Like, I just can't meet you there. And you'd appreciate that as well. It's going to, it's going to affect me. But I'm not in a position to be like, you know, you know, don't make those insulin jokes. Because I don't think there's any subject

[Michael Malice]

that's like that in removing comedy from it. Because I've thought about the point that you're saying a decent amount. There's also, in real life, it's like, it's like the difference between being sort of like having like a level of complex thought versus just being like a slave to, you know, your basic instincts is the ability to like understand when your anecdotal experience isn't accurate. You know, like if you, if you're like a parent and you have a kid and you, let's say you lived in a town where 10 people were molested and there's only 14 people in that town. You know what I mean? Just an extreme version, but. And then you kind of have this opinion that you could never have kids alone because they're getting molested all the time. You know what I mean? And then, and that's your experience, but you now have to look at it and you go, well, my experience is incorrect in this certain situation. It's almost a society has to do that. The idea is to be able to put like limitations and governors on yourself to understand where bad emotion is incorrect.

[Ryan Long]

But I feel like more and more of our culture is now, especially with AI, it's getting personalized that whatever your personal point of view is, is valid and, and the center of reality. And I'm sure you see this all the time from like fans or Followers of yours where they would yell at you for doing something that is, you know, some way off the path that they see you on. And you have to appreciate that from their perspective. You're on their screen, you're in their house. Yeah, they're the. They're the homeowner or they're. Whatever you are, their servant. And it never makes sense to them that it's like you're just. We don't have a relationship, and if we do have one, I'm certainly not your subordinate. They don't think like that. And it's data.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

It's only going to get worse and worse with Siri and Grok or whoever validating you and having a personal relationship with you. People are curating their own realities. I mean, many people said that before, and I don't see how it's going to get better.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, you'll see that with. I'm sure you've seen versions of this where people will. It's funny because their opinion of you was incorrect and they were just like, you change this and this. And you're kind of like, no, that was actually like the thing that you just accused me of doing. That's kind of my whole thing.

[Ryan Long]

You know, I. I get yelled at for like, why is my Twitter not more serious?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, you're like, that's how it always was.

[Ryan Long]

That's how it. Or also the other one I get is this guy came out of nowhere. No, you learned about me today, but for years I was doing stuff that you weren't aware of, nor did you have any reason to be aware of. But things reach a kind of point of inflection now. It's on your screen. Like it's. It's not some overnight construct. There's a trail of breadcrumbs that you could follow quite easily of how this happened. Now, I do think sometimes people are kind of made into a. Put on a pedestal and forced on everyone's throats. But when you see it like that with someone who's got, like, kind of a longish career in media as I have, it's just like, no, no, no. This is just. You have blinders on now. I'm in your field of view. I did not start to exist five minutes ago.

[Michael Malice]

So do you think there's anything useful to take from that? Or is that to be just completely ignored when people come at you in that way?

[Ryan Long]

Useful how? How would it be useful?

[Michael Malice]

It's. Let's say you got more than one of those. Let's say you got 20 of those in a short period of time, or let's say 100 of those in a short period of time, you might say, what is. What is going on? That there's a large percentage of people that are misinterpreting something. Did you know, did someone post a clip of me somewhere that you know with it? Did one of my editors post something with a caption that is very misleading, like, you might say, like, is there something specific to. That's happening right now?

[Ryan Long]

It's. I'll tell you when that happened to a large extent the first time I was on Rogan, and a lot of people like, who is this guy? Why is he in Rogan? So on and so forth. And I think to their mind, it's a. It's a continuum. Like, you have to reach a certain level and then Rogue is the next logical step. But for them, it kind of went from a 3 to a 10. Like I didn't do the work in between. And it's not legitimate. So that's not how he books guests, of course, but in their mind, it's kind of like he's the final boss. Wait a minute. I didn't see this guy through. Go through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, level 8. And why. Why is he here? And it's just like, I'm here or any of the guests are there because he finds that person interesting and wants to talk to them. That's all it is.

[Michael Malice]

But they.

[Ryan Long]

They have this parasocial relationship with whoever the guest, the host is, and they're like, I know this guy. I listen to him three hours a day. I don't understand his thought process on this. He's wronging me somehow.

[Michael Malice]

I do completely agree. And I do. I remember seeing that sort of like early on. And one of the reasons I'm happy I have like a more male fan base is that they. Men are a little more. Let's say you have a friend that you can have like a good buddy that does crazy shit. You disagree with him on something and you're just like, you know that so and so. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of men are able to like, put people that they follow in that category of. Whereas, like, you'll see a lot of, like, women's spaces, whether it's a guy or where they. They get off the beaten path a little bit and it's like a shit storm. And a little bit you'll see it on TikTok. Like, people are still getting like wildly canceled. Like it's 20, 20 again, by their female fan bases. And I always find that to be like, I'm sort of happy that I curated a thing where I'll see that in my comments or even people I talk to at shows that are, that are like, I really disagree with you on this thing, but whatever. Like, you, But I, But I, you know, you're. They almost like, are fine with, you know, listening to you and watching your stuff, but they disagree with you on, like, a fundamental thing.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, the one that bothers me is. That bothers me, but that I get taken aback. I guess it bothers me a little when they're like, you know, I used to like you and such, such and such. Now I realize you're, you're terrible, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, every time I'm like, you're breaking up with someone who doesn't know you exist. Like, there's literally every beat of the relationship you've gone through in your head. I don't know who you are. You're entitled to like me. You're entitled not to like me.

[Michael Malice]

That's.

[Ryan Long]

I, I want you to consume content you like, like, seriously go thrive. And it's just like, I, I, I, I don't know who. And I'm not going to change to humor you because I don't even know what you want or who you are. You're not paying my bills.

[Michael Malice]

My favorite one that I get that, probably the only one that actually annoys me a little bit is people go, what you don't understand is this. And the thing that they're saying, it's like, yeah, like, I haven't considered that point. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Long]

Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

What you're not realizing is this, this, this. You go, yes. I've obviously know that, like, argument and I've factored that into my analysis. We got to a different conclusion. But, like, the fact you have some piece of information I'm not aware of,

[Ryan Long]

there's a worse one, which is. You do realize that I think those I block on site.

[Michael Malice]

You know what I was. I've been saying that it's been making me laugh, the idea of, you know, like, there's these guys that like, you know, like Daniel Radcliffe and there's kind of a lot of celebrities that kind of do, like, the men are toxic tourists.

[Ryan Long]

Wait, Harry Potter.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's a big one. Because, you know, started out by, like, being why jk. Jk Rowlings is bad. You know, I call her, I call her jfk. Rollings. Because they're both dead to me.

[Ryan Long]

You know, one of my favorite tweets. There's like, five favorite tweets. One of them is. Let's. Let's be honest. If Big Bird was real, we'd all kill him immediately. And the other one is. I'm a JFK truther. I think that his head just did that. Like, I love.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

The truth. Or that. You know, I think there's no genders. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Long]

Wait, so Radcliffe, please finish that thought.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I was watching him do a press tour, and then. And there's a lot of guys like this, that they're very telling women what they want to hear. You know what I mean? And I said that I thought I nailed exactly what they're doing. It's a younger brother that was allowed to hang out at his older sister's sleepover. And that is, like, kind of what a lot of these guys press tours is, is them being like, it's. They're 13. The girls are 15. They get to hang out while they're doing pillow fights, and they're just like, I. Oh, my God. I agree. Tony's the worst. As he, like, you know, paints their nails and stuff. Men are toxic. You know, it's a. It's a guy. It's a. Their energy is a guy that was invited to this older sister's sleepover.

[Ryan Long]

I am glad. And though in contemporary feminist circles there is a complete understanding now that those guys are complete creepers and never.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

And are worse than, like, the stereotypical frat boy date rapist. That they're.

[Michael Malice]

That.

[Ryan Long]

Those. Those feminists know those dudes, like, red flags from here in China.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, that was. That was pretty early on. Yeah, that stopped working.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Ryan Long]

And it's. And for other dudes, it's like, what are you doing? Why are you painting her nails? Hi, I'm Juliet Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the true crime podcast the Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during, and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. Are you really buying a car online

[Michael Malice]

on autotrader right now?

[Ryan Long]

Really?

[Michael Malice]

At a playground? Yeah.

[Ryan Long]

Really? Look at these listings from dealers. Wow. Your search can really get that specific.

[Michael Malice]

Really?

[Ryan Long]

And you just put in your info, and boom, Cars in your Budget mom needs a second. Honey, you can really have it delivered.

[Michael Malice]

Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership.

[Ryan Long]

One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car. I think your kid is walking up the slide, Kyle.

[Michael Malice]

Again?

[Ryan Long]

Really? Auto trader.

[Michael Malice]

Buy your car online. Really?

[Ryan Long]

Let's get back to the show.

[Michael Malice]

Hey, I have a good philosophical question for you because you're well thought. You're one of those people. I like guys that whenever they have an opinion on something, you could tell it was like, well thought out. Okay. You're one of those people. So someone. You know, a lot of times people that. This. The first part is something that's maybe obvious and a lot of people say is that people that purport to have, like, very Empathy empathetic about stuff are often like the biggest, you know, assholes or whatever to people in their life. Like, I'm very caring about this group, but I'm actually like, mean to my mom. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Long]

So, like, I'll say that one sentence. I'm going to paraphrase Margaret Thatcher. So being empathetic is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are. You aren't sure.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, that's true. Yeah. And then. But there are people that, like, I do know, people that sort of sit in that ballpark of, you know, I'm. I'm very empathetic to groups I purport to be victims. But I'm also very much like that where if someone's being piled on and canceled, they're like. They feel also like, you know, no. That the punishment didn't fit the crime. I feel kind of. So there is people that are at. And is it. Do you think? I was. This is my, like, hypothesis. I don't know if it's true, but I was thinking, is it like straight up an IQ issue? The inability to feel empathy for multiple sides of a thing or to be able to, like in a complicated equation where the interests are separate, where the interests are conflicting. Being able to be empathetic or understanding the point of view of multiple conflicting interests. Do you think that's an IQ issue or what else would it be?

[Ryan Long]

So F. Scott, I think it was F. Scott Fitzgerald had a quote. And I don't have it off top of my head, but it's something that. Like the.

[Michael Malice]

The.

[Ryan Long]

Or Bertrand Russell. One of them. The. And they're not very similar figures. The mark of a quality mind is to be able to entertain two or more thoughts simultaneously without going mad. So, meaning, like, I talk about this, I think about This a lot, especially on social media. You ask someone, would you be able to steel man, the opposite point of view of what you're saying without using irony, sarcasm or eye rolling. And a lot of people either can't do it or they'll take pride in that. They won't. Because, like, why would I want to explain to you the pro choice position? They want to murder kids. And it's like, okay, then you're not really engaging completely in good faith because yeah, the other side, at the very least is going to have some grain of truth because it's a lot easier to persuade people of lies if there's, it's. If there's truth at the center and they misconstrue things. So to your point, the short answer I think is yes or I don't know if iq, if it's literally iq, but it's a certain mental level because a lot of people cannot understand or won't the thought processes of someone other than in their own tribe. They don't run a true false filter. They run an us them filter. And if you ask the kaboom, yeah, that's true.

[Michael Malice]

And it's. And one of them is like a cheap filter you buy at the dollar store.

[Ryan Long]

And one of them is, yeah, boomer conservative. Can you. And I think you or I or most people watching this can say yes. Can you explain why bin Laden wanted 911 happen we so hot. We could do it pretty easily. But a lot of things, a lot of people, like what? Because he's evil. It's like, sure, okay, fine, he's evil. What was his thought process? What are you talking about? He wants to kill people. It's like, okay, why do you target these people? Why do it Makes no sense to them. So I think it is a certain mental level. And so not only can they not do it, they can't even understand the utility in trying or wanting to.

[Michael Malice]

There's certain. I'll tell you one of those, you know, there's a lot of those where I'm. Where, yeah, that's a good answer. I agree. And also funny. That's where philosophy is always funny that sometimes as like, maybe I don't know if I'm stupid, but like, I'm not crazy. Well read if that makes sense. Okay. And I'll, I'll think I have like, I'll be thinking about something a lot and then I'll kind of like bring it to someone that I know that's like, really? Maybe some more of an intellectual. And I'm like, I think, like I noticed this like very important, like human truth. And they're just like, yeah, that was in Plato's this. And you know, you know, all of my, it kind of feels, sometimes it's, you know, the equivalent of me saying like describing this like really good movie and you go, you just told me Braveheart. Like, you know, I, I,

[Ryan Long]

I remember Bridget Fenesty, who I adore, she was sitting down with Glenn Beck and she was telling him, hey, Glenn, did you know that we're in a culture war?

[Michael Malice]

Like, who do you think you're talking about?

[Ryan Long]

But it's, it's, it's, it's interesting. I, I think the other thing, one of the things I rail against a lot more currently, even more than politics, which I might be a lost cause at this point, is we're taught in government schools, since we're kids, in universalism and the idea that every human being is basically the same under their skin, which is true in one specific sense, but it's not true in really important fundamental senses, including how they think. And if you or I, you and I, I think there's nothing you could say that I couldn't understand or you could not make me understand if you just explained it vice versa. But I think if you and I sat down with like some kind of like nuclear physicist and they try to break down quantum mechanics to us, we would maybe viscerally get it. But we're not getting it the same way he gets it, or some mathematician explaining higher calculus. Like we can kind of follow his train of thought, but if he left the room, we'd be Sol. And people understand that. So they understand they can't think up, but they don't realize. Well, if you go the other direction, those people don't think like you do. When we see stupid people, you think of like stupid people on TV in sitcoms, they know fewer facts or they, you know, they don't understand third, but they process information in completely alien ways.

[Michael Malice]

Well, it's not, it's not. So here's a theory I have that it's not completely linear because I've thought a lot about the idea of why are the maybe funniest comedians or, and you could probably do this about, you know, different types of artists and different types of jobs. Why are the best at it not just the smartest? Like why it's, why is, why would it not just be the smartest person? Like so, and to some degree, when you're, There is a point sometimes where I'll notice where I am this is. This, like, web that I'm, like, building of connections that I'm making is becoming too large for me to properly, like, understand them all at the same time. Right. And I think when you. It becomes exponential. Right. Like the way that if you're. If you're meant. If you're managing, you know, 10 mil, a million connections to understand something, and then you add 20% more. That's a lot, right? Yeah. So at a certain level, brains that can manage that many create shortcuts. Yes. In order to manage them all. And in creating those shortcuts, they've made themselves less funny because a lot of humor lies in actually that space where they've created shortcuts. And I find that a lot of times with simpler issues, people, if you talk to someone really, really smart, they almost have, like, a shorthand way to. That's like. Right. 99.999% of the time. But a lot of times the funniest thing lied in that one where there was. Yeah. So that was maybe part of where there's like, an artisticness that's lost in making shortcuts in order to be that smart and handle that complex level of problems or something. Right.

[Ryan Long]

Because you want to be in the weeds a lot of times. Because that's where the joke is. The joke's not going to be front and center. It's going to be this little quirk on the side where you're. You're kind of skipping it. But like, no, no, no. Let's take the scenic route to the destination, because that's where all the funny punchlines are.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. And you're. You're not capable of taking the scenic route because you have too many stuff to manage. It's like, now you're. You're on a trip that you got to get there, and you're. Your logistics is nine people in nine different cars, and they're all going to. And you're like, this person's like, I. Hey, I'm thinking about taking a detour. You're like, we don't. We can't do that right now. We. We're. This is already hard enough as is.

[Ryan Long]

The, The. There's two things I recently kind of have been fixated on in this kind of stuff, which is how people, like less intelligent people, perceive language. So they look at sentences like soup, and they'll take the nouns and rearrange them. So, for example, if I said, this is not my view, but if I said the following, every crazy person I know likes Trump, they will hear as if I had said every Trump supporter is crazy. Which are not at all interchangeable sentences and they also will not be under understand this is a sentence I'm saying as opposed to this is my view because the words did literally come out of my mouth. But I've had this. The first couple times I saw this, I was taken aback. But then it becomes a pattern. If I am saying, oh, the Ryan view is blah, blah, blah, those words aren't there. They'll argue with me as if it's my view. And it's just like, but I'm saying this is Ryan's view. It's just like with math where you have three times in parentheses and you have squares, people, a string of numbers, they can't parse it out. It's really something people need to be aware of when you're trying to communicate because it's frustrating otherwise.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And one of the ones that I find to be like, interesting, I think the abortion ones are pretty, that that might be the best one where both sides are doing it equally. That might be one of the best

[Ryan Long]

for that issue, I feel where people on both sides have the highest sympathy and the lowest empathy. I had a joke where it's like, I'm torn abortion because I want to kill kids, but I also want to control women's bodies. And it's just like if you ask

[Michael Malice]

the pro, it's funny, I had a similar thing that I do. Did you really?

[Ryan Long]

You killed women? You, you.

[Michael Malice]

No, I said that I, well, I say that I'm torn because I'm pro abortion, but I'm also pro taking women's rights away way.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, yeah. And it's because if you ask your pro life person, explain the pro choice version without sarcasm or irony, many times they will refuse. And you can understand why in one sense and vice versa, if you ask the, it's, it's the issue where people are completely talking past each other. And you can understand why because it's something that's so important to so many people. But it's, it's, I, I think counterproductive in many ways because I feel like the pro life movement would be more effective if they had you and vice versa, if they used language that the other side, because I, I, I still

[Michael Malice]

broadly consider, well, if they stopped addressing points that they're not making too. That's a lot of, a lot of times like their criticism. It's, it's like I'm saying I, I'm breaking up with my girlfriend because she is, she, she keeps fucking other guys and you keep telling me, I don't know, man, I think she is hot. It's like you're, your criticism is not their point of their main, Main argument's not being addressed in the. It's two people.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Talk. Or if they said something like, oh,

[Ryan Long]

polyamory is something that works for a lot of couples, like, that's nice, but of no relevance. And even those cases, it's when it's agreed ahead of time, not ex post facto. What are you talking about?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, abortion's a really good one for that. But I, I found it a lot of times in my life that in New York, the economic ones, especially, like if you're discussing, let's say that, you know people are going to leave, you go, you know, obviously if the tax rate gets so high, people will leave. And they go, no, they won't. And I go, I know someone that has. And they go, no, they're not doing that. And you go, and me and Danny used to joke, they go, that's been debunked. You go, it's my friend. They go, no, that's been debunked. I go, but it was. I know him, but. And you go, so obviously the answer is that some people will, some people won't. If you, if you raise it more, more people will. What are those numbers versus how many more people are moving into the city versus how rich are the people that leave? Is it, you know, did you lose 10 millionaires or did you lose the 10 richest people in the city? Like, these things are all. That's the real answer. It's like, and what is that number? And. But it's like people cannot look at these things as like a binary. And it's like crazy. You go, thinkers for me. I go, yeah, if I have to pay an extra $30,000 a year, like, it's not that crazy that I'll move to New Jersey. Which is actually not. It's kind of the same distance from my studio and they're just like, no, people don't leave. And I go, I'm thinking about. It's like not crazy.

[Ryan Long]

It's also the same thing we see with these so called trans kids. It's like all of them have gender dysphoria. None of them are just maybe confused. That would be. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Another one. Yeah, if.

[Ryan Long]

What if it's a little boy who likes playing with dolls and likes putting on makeup and dresses, but role playing as a girl, as a kid. But then as he becomes. Goes to puberty, he's like, he's a dude or a gay dude. It's like that never happens. But for them it has. You have to say never, because if you say that it sometimes happens. Well, you're screwing this kid up for life if you're putting him down that path. But they will not have the space for any kind of uncertainty in their worldview because then they're going to have to answer some really complicated questions. And it gets dark very, very fast. Nope, it's always.

[Michael Malice]

Or that doesn't really happen, I think. So the trans one would be a gay. You can understand because it's. The existence of it explains it where you're like, okay, that's a guy having sex with a guy. You're like, he's gay. You're like, well, what's the explanation? Well, it doesn't matter because he's doing it. You know what I mean? But. And then I was thinking religion would be another one where there's like a faith. There's one part of the chain that's faith. Trans. Is that. Is there any more where that. Where you go, is there any more things you can think of other than religion in that. Where a part of the like logic chain of you having to think this involves a faith link.

[Ryan Long]

I think everything. I think a lot of politics has this kind of certain, like, I need this to be true, you know, aspect to it.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, but okay, when people were describing that you can be healthy being fat, right?

[Ryan Long]

Sure.

[Michael Malice]

There was no part of that that you just had to believe. Like their explanation was. Their explanation was incorrect and the math was wrong. And it was generally on faulty statistics and stuff like that. But the argument wasn't just like. Because we said so. There was a bad argument, but it was still like an argument that didn't have a faith link.

[Ryan Long]

I don't know. I remember there's a band called Wilson Phillips. I think they had. They had a really resurgent recently. And it was two hot chicks and Carney Wilson, who was like 5:1. I think she was 250 or even more at her heaviest. And there was even a band that was called Fat Chick from Wilson Phillips. And I remember, I remember she was in Howard Stern. And again, she's 51 2, Hondo plus right. She's on Howard Stern. She made him feel her butt. She was insisting it was firm. And I think she had an exercise video. And she said you could be fat and fit. And to this day I literally don't know what she. I Literally. Don't know what she means. You.

[Michael Malice]

I mean, football, like, football players would be fat and fit. Like, where it's like, he's got a gut, but he is in good shape.

[Ryan Long]

I. I wouldn't call him fat. I say he has a high. But he has a high muscle mass as well.

[Michael Malice]

So I have friends that are in really good shape and they're athletes, but they eat too much so they can't burn.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. Like, they call that a huskular, but

[Michael Malice]

they are less fit than the version of them without the fact. Sure.

[Ryan Long]

But my point is, Carney Wilson isn't benching three plates.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, yeah. Right. So I, like, in her, like, in their case, they're at their literal athletes. Right. They need that mask because they want to tackle the guy. Whatever they could. They can move up and down that field. So. Point taken. But with her, I don't know what

[Michael Malice]

she's talking about when she's describes herself as fit. You're like, in which ways are you fit?

[Ryan Long]

Yeah, like, what do you. I'm not even. I'm not arguing with you. I'm like, literally, what does that word mean to you? The fact that you're not a scooter. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[Ryan Long]

Like, what does that word mean to her other than what? Like, I guess you. Wait, I'm gonna steal man.

[Michael Malice]

It.

[Ryan Long]

I guess you can say if I exercise every day, maybe she does her, like, aerobics, then I'm fit. And maybe for her, fit means someone who engages in exercise consistently.

[Michael Malice]

So you just describe. You're just having an Argue. A semantics argument of what's the definition? You know?

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. And I. I think that's a.

[Michael Malice]

It becomes. Not a clinical word. It just becomes a. A word that we. Yeah. We describe this person as hot and that. I say no, you say yes, but that's just our own internal definition.

[Ryan Long]

And kudos.

[Michael Malice]

I guess that's what it is.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. And kudos to Carney because she got gastric bypass and beat it because she stole.

[Michael Malice]

Nice.

[Ryan Long]

Yeah. So she. She's committed to that role. Man. Folks, head over to malice.locals.com where Ryan took questions from supporting listeners. You can join yourself. Just five bucks a month. Ryan, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

[Michael Malice]

I think it was my favorite part has been being able to pick your brain about a few things because I do respect your opinions and I've been listening to you for a long time.

[Ryan Long]

So oh, well, you are welcome.

[Michael Malice]

Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. We're coming at you with everything we got.

[Ryan Long]

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[Michael Malice]

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[Ryan Long]

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[Michael Malice]

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[Ryan Long]

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