Michael Malice (2:33)

know, what is your basis for saying he's Charming. I just.

Steven Fishbach (2:35)

My. He's a friend. Like, my experience with him is that

Michael Malice (2:37)

doesn't mean he's charming. That means you like him.

Steven Fishbach (2:38)

He's charmed me, you know, charmed me to the point that I'm his friend. Okay, but. But, you know, you do go into these. There's this whole, like, you say, reality television ecosystem where, you know, you're on the show for six months, suddenly people are treating you differently, Right? Like, literally, just because you're on television, like, there's, like, you know, you're on Survivor. It's not because of any skill you have. You know, you're not, like, on Project Runway where you're designing a dress or Top Chef where you're. You're making food. You're, like, literally just, like, outside and, like, pooping outdoors.

Michael Malice (3:09)

Like, hopefully pooping.

Steven Fishbach (3:11)

Yeah, right. Well, that's right. It's, you know, not. Not everybody, but. But suddenly people do start treating you differently. You know, your friends do, the people around you do, like, literally simply because of that fact. And it's very beguiling. And you start to feel, wow, like, this fame thing is really interesting. Like, oh, I like. I like the way this feels. I mean, I. Before I went on Survivor, was zero interested in being on tv. I was like, this is like, I'd love to play this fascinating game. Like, I want this, you know, intense experience of the wilderness. I didn't care about being on television, but once I was on television, I was like, wow, this is awesome.

Michael Malice (3:44)

I love it. And for people who don't know you got all the way to the finals, first time you're on Survivor and on Survivor, people don't watch it. You have to vote people off.

Steven Fishbach (3:51)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (3:51)

At the end, the people you vote off are the jury who vote for you and how many people voted for you in the final.

Steven Fishbach (3:55)

It's hard to remember.

Michael Malice (3:56)

Michael. Who can say? Was it zero?

Steven Fishbach (3:58)

It was zero. Zero people voted for me to be the winner.

Michael Malice (4:00)

Very charming, Stephen.

Steven Fishbach (4:01)

Yeah. I was the first contestant in the show's history in a final two to receive zero votes. Is that true? Yeah.

Michael Malice (4:06)

Yeah.

Steven Fishbach (4:06)

Other contestants had received zero votes in, like, a final three, but I was the first one ever in a final two, which is when there's only two people there at the end to get no votes.

Michael Malice (4:15)

I didn't know that.

Steven Fishbach (4:15)

Yeah, Beautiful. I might. I think I still hold that title. I don't believe I. That's sort of.

Michael Malice (4:20)

Is that like, how many seasons later? Like, 20 or 30.

Steven Fishbach (4:22)

But they don't do a lot of final twos. Anymore, to be fair. But yeah, we're coming into season 50 of Survivor and I'm still. Yeah. The one of the biggest losers.

Michael Malice (4:30)

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Fishbach (4:30)

Okay. So you're saying please, but so then, you know, then it's so compelling and then of course it stops. Right. Like the show's over and that attention dilutes and even like you can like see, like even your friends who are like inviting you to more events are treating you differently. Start, like, why, why did I invite him to this event? You know, you can see it, you can like feel it fade away. Um, and then you get to go to these charity events, these reality TV charity events or like these bar nights and suddenly, you know, the fans come in and they're making you like, wow. Like they remember this, this crazy thing I did, you know, and they're, they're excited for you. They're excited to meet you. They want your signature and, and even more than the fans themselves, I think it's like the other contestants all feeding off of each other where, you know, everybody is there from past seasons. You're all high fiving each other. You're like, oh my God. Remember when you did this amazing thing? Like, remember when you did this amazing thing? And like everyone's got their story about how they really should have won their season of the show. And it's just like this like toxic little bubble where you get to feel famous and it's almost like it really is almost like a drug that you should probably have quit a long time ago, but you keep on getting these like little hits of it and you can't quit. You can never fully withdraw.

Michael Malice (5:39)

Yeah, it's survivor. Watching that show had two major epiphanies for me in my life. And the first one, season one was

Steven Fishbach (5:46)

when season one, 2000. 2001. This is the kind of thing I

Michael Malice (5:51)

showed you 2000 because 2001 was a big brother. Right? Because nine, 11 happened during season two big brother.

Steven Fishbach (5:54)

That's right.

Michael Malice (5:55)

So it must have been 2000 or 99, something like that. It was one of the most important moments of my life in terms of understanding people. Work with Survivor because it was the second to last ep. I've talked about this before. It's just you have those light bulb moments and it's just affects you for life. It was the second to last episode. Right. So this is going to be a final four. It's Su, Hawk, Kelly, Rudy's. Did he pass away? Oh, God. This is.

Steven Fishbach (6:16)

Yes, yes. Rudy passed away.

Michael Malice (6:18)

Who was the best and Richard Hatch, who was superb. So the question is, who's gonna win? There's four options. And next week, and there's a clip where Kelly or Sue says, the other one. We gotta take out Richard. Yeah. And I went to a Survivor message board. Cause that's how much of a fan I was. Survivor sucks. Yeah. And people were speculating who's gonna be the finalist, who's gonna win. And one says, oh, did you hear what Kelly said? I think they're gonna vote on Richard. And I go, we all heard it. It wasn't a window. You're not looking, you're laughing. But this was a very telling comment because it made me realize the average human can't distinguish what is on their screen is what. Not only was it something we all heard that was left in by choice, some editor took that sound bite for whatever reason, maybe to manipulate you. Maybe that was interesting. But the other thing that leads into is a lot of people who watch these shows think they know you. And there's people you and I are friends with who are, like, villains on this show. And people feel comfortable messing with them in real life to get that villain response. And it's like that, to me, is very scary because this is a real person under bizarre circumstances. So they're obviously not their best. And you feel comfortable trying to get them to, like, lose their shit. Like, I could see the humor on paper, but I don't think they appreciate the derangement of what they're actually doing.

Steven Fishbach (7:35)

Yes, I. I do. And I felt it, you know, like when I'm watching a show and I see someone, you know, doing terrible behavior, even knowing that it's a show, even knowing that they can, you know, that they are starving. I mean, I watch the Challenge, another reality show. I'm a huge obsessive for that show. And I see someone doing something jerky, and I want to take to X and tell them off. And then I can stop myself, because I realize having been on the other side of that, that's an insane, toxic thing to do. But it really is. I think it is really hard to create that distinction, because the whole premise of reality television is this is real people living their real lives. And the parasocial relationship extends even to scripted content. There have been studies that show that people who watch friends think they have more friends. So, like, you know, the fact. Then you add that sort of reality component to it. And of course, people think that they know you in this authentic way. And to some degree, they do. Right. Like, it is, like, an aspect of you and I think now what's really interesting has been watching the evolution of contestants on the show where people now, like, know that going in.

Michael Malice (8:42)

That's right.

Steven Fishbach (8:43)

Even when I was on, like, I had a moment. I remember this moment, like, right in the last few days, when someone from the production staff said, you know, oh, man, like, Coach is going to be such a huge character on this season. I was like, character? Like, what do you mean? Like, character. You know, suddenly it all hit me that we were all characters on a TV show. But I think now people go in knowing their characters on a TV show, and they kind of play it up a little bit. You know, they do memes.

Michael Malice (9:05)

Yeah. There was one thing I saw recently. Your buddy Rob was on the season of the Traitors, my favorite show at the moment. Right? Yeah. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but there was. I think it was Traders Ireland. And this is when a lot of your book is about real going too far. And I think we crossed that line, and here's why. So on the Traders, people don't know. You have, like, 20 contestants. Four of them are Traders, the rest are faithful. You don't know who the Traders are. So at night, under the COVID of darkness, the Traders are killing people off. And then you have this, what they call a roundtable, and you have to try to suss out who they are. And it's almost impossible because the Traders are part of the conversation and they're leading the conversation. And it's very, very tricky because they're only doing bad things, like, one hour a night. The other times, they're competing with you. They want to win the contest. And there was an episode where it was a mom. She was like 40s or 50s, and she got voted out. And she was innocent, but she said something. They misinterpreted it. And I just sat there and I'm like, this perfectly nice woman is now being surrounded by people she's living with who are all her genuine friends. Like, outside the game, they like her. And now they're pointing at her in her face, calling her a liar, saying, you're a traitor. It's like Shirley Jackson's short story of the lottery. She's in tears and she. She's like, I'm not a traitor. I'm a faithful. Because at the end of the reveal, they'll feel bad. And I'm like, this is a traumatic moment. I want anyone, like, I know you. It's on tv. Imagine you're at, like, Thanksgiving dinner and your whole family or just Even your friend group denounces you as a liar when you know with 100%, certainly you're telling the truth. This is like some kind of like Clockwork Orange or Gaslighting. And I'm like, we're encouraging this and no one seems to have a problem with it. I was very disturbed by it. You.

Steven Fishbach (10:44)

You, I think, really nail it with that comparison to the lottery. I mean, I noticed even on. I mean, on Survivor, even not just these, you know, when. When you're being voted out, there's always this narrative around the person who's being voted out that they're the bad one. You know, like, we would just be playing this, like, wonderful, honorable, great game, but this person is over there causing chaos. This person is playing too hard. If we, like, purge them from this group, like, then we'll be able to have, like, a noble great game, like we should be. And then, of course, like, there is a sort of ritual. I mean, and it's very deliberately staged as a ritual, right? Tribal and Survivor with, like, they snuff a torch. And like, in this game, fire represents your life. And then you have to, like, walk out into the darkness and everyone's telling you, yes, like, we don't want you here. And you are the problem here. And then you're sort of like, cast out. And I think you're right that the traitors is much more. Is even worse in a way, much worse. It's so. It's right to people's faces. People are saying, you're betraying us. And it's interesting, like, even though it's obviously within this metaphor of, you know, nobody's really getting killed, nobody's really being betrayed, you're right. That, like, that metaphor, like, it takes on this real potency when you're living it. I mean, you can see how intense the emotions get. And I think you're right. Like, you feel very attacked. I. In my. In my first season of Survivor, when I was at that final Tribal Council where you remind me that I got zero votes, I, you know, people are saying you're a bad person. Like, you are. You don't deserve, you know, to be here. Like, you know, the person, like, they were saying to my friend next to me, like, you. Like, I don't like you because you aligned with this rat Steven, you know, like, and it's rattling, you know, especially because the intense conditions of being on reality television.

Michael Malice (12:25)

But even in that case, you knew where they were coming from because you blowed them out. So you did have a hand and they were losing. In this show, that person is 100% innocent. She did nothing, literally nothing wrong. And she's being spoken to like she's a murderer.

Steven Fishbach (12:36)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (12:36)

By people who were nice to her. Five minutes ago, you didn't see the people you voted out for days. Yeah. And then they come back, they're pissed. Okay. You get, you know, it's coming. This wasn't the first season, but on that show, it's just like five minutes ago we were having drinks in the bar and now you're berating me and saying things that are. With perfect certainty that I'm a horrible. I can't get over it. It really screwed me up.

Steven Fishbach (12:57)

Well, what's interesting, too, is, like, you know, you just have to compartmentalize this. And I've talked to a lot of reality contestants who, like, they don't even realize that, like, the trauma that they're having simply because it's within the context of a reality show. Right. It's this, like, frivolous cultural product. And you think to yourself, well, I'm on a reality show. It can't be that serious. So even though you are undergoing these sort of traumatic experiences because you know that it's just part of this game and I was playing it and it was like on, you know, on Peacock, you know, you don't think like, oh, wow, like, I was really deeply affected as a person. Like, you don't even know how deeply affected you are. I think that's true for a lot of contestants.

Michael Malice (13:29)

Let's talk about one more thing about Survivor, which I thought really just speaks to politics in general. So there's the. There's what you're told and there's. I'm a Russian, so part of the Russian mindset is the rules are there to be exploited, not to be followed. Right. It makes just people tell you A, B and C. Okay. I don't care what this is meant for. And a good example of this was season one of Survivor because Richard Hatch thought like that. So season one of Survivor, you had two tribes. Then when it's down to 10 people, they merged as one tribe. And. And they didn't give you instructions for who to vote for. Now you're all one tribe. And Richard Hatch realized we're not all one tribe. We were competing against them yesterday. If we work together, we have the numbers, we can just pick them off. And he's like, but the other tribe was like, oh, well, we were told one tribe, so we're just going to follow what the authorities tell us. And that was Hatch's tactic to win. I don't think Mark Burnett saw that coming, that this would be the strategy. It was kind of like an experiment. I remember reading about it as this kind of Treasure island situation. But I think it's. I think a lot of these games are really fun because you see my favorite reality show season of all time is Heroes versus Villains of Survivor because that was the example of the informed villain versus the naive so called hero. But those heroes are just bad villains. That's the other thing. You can't be a hero on Survivor, really. You have to be stabbing people in the back and doing conniving things. And I don't want to spoil anything, but watch all the scenes survive and then watch that because it's. Oh, my. It's just a masterpiece. So I'm just curious to hear your thoughts about, you know, how it just affects you as a person. Does it make you more conniving in general?

Steven Fishbach (15:04)

You know, I remember the first time I had to lie. You know, it's not natural to lie to someone's face. I mean, maybe for some people it is, but like, I think for probably most people it's not. And what's, you know, I think unique about Survivor among other reality shows is that, you know, you literally are relying on each other for body heat and for food. You know, you're going, you know, fishing together. You know, you're like cuddling in the shelter at night. You're like freezing. And then you are literally lying to that person and you're destroying their dreams. Like, you know what their dreams are? They are telling you, like, this money, this million dollars is going to get my dad out of debt. And you're like, oh, sorry for you, you know, and then you're just like sending them off on their way.

Michael Malice (15:40)

You know. I'm laughing.

Steven Fishbach (15:41)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (15:42)

No, but do you know the quote I'm laughing at?

Steven Fishbach (15:43)

Which one?

Michael Malice (15:44)

You know, Come on, what's the quote?

Steven Fishbach (15:45)

Well, I don't know.

Michael Malice (15:47)

This is Survivor, not Welfare. It's not my fault she sucks at life.

Steven Fishbach (15:51)

Oh, well, listen, that's from. From a great contestant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's sort of like

Michael Malice (15:56)

she voted out the lunch lady.

Steven Fishbach (15:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice (15:58)

Who then voted for her in the finals.

Steven Fishbach (16:00)

I know. Well, listen, I mean, you've got the lore. You've got the lore, but it really does, like, and, and honestly, when I came back from that show, I found myself being like, more deceitful, you know, like, not like in a nefarious way, but just like always, like, even in the workplace, thinking like, who are my allies here? You know, it just became this kind of like default.

Michael Malice (16:19)

You felt like a Russian, I'm not kidding, Russian mindset. That's the Russian mindset.

Steven Fishbach (16:23)

That's wild. I mean, it's, it's. It really not healthy. Yeah, it's not. And I had to really deprogram myself from that to like a more healthy, I don't know, communitarian mindset.

Michael Malice (16:33)

Until like 10 years ago, my entire. You're going to laugh. I'm not joking at all. My entire brain was. When I was talking to someone, I would run a scan and ask myself, if this person turns on me, is it okay for me to tell them what I'm about to tell them about everything? That was my default mindset. Wow. And I had to purge myself of that. Sometimes it backfired and it should have been there, but it's really the. I don't even know how that came into my head. I didn't grow up there. It's not. My parents sat me down or like, careful, the KGB is gonna come to the door. But it was ingrained in me.

Steven Fishbach (17:06)

That's so wild. That idea of generational trauma. Like there is something to it. It sounds like mystical, but I really believe there's something to it.

Michael Malice (17:12)

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Steven Fishbach (20:32)

Yeah, exactly, because you're being told, vote at the traders. It's the whole metaphor of the game is like, you got to eliminate the traders. But yes, like if you vote out a trader, you know, then you actually are making your position in the game worse.

Michael Malice (20:42)

Right.

Steven Fishbach (20:43)

Because you're another trader is going to join and now you don't have the information that you needed in order to like actually win the game at the end. So actually I do think that Sandra, who was on Survivor Heroes versus Villains, your favorite season, and then was on the Traders, I think she had that strategy her season of Traders where she wanted to make an alliance that included known traders, you know, because it's like that's ultimately the correct strategy. Like the faithful should protect the traders they know and the traders should protect the faithful that they know. And then they should get to the end and then kind of like basically duke it out there. But yeah, I mean, I think the optimal strategy is an interface, an inter. Whatever. Inter Traitorial alliance. Right. But you're told to trainer hunt and you kind of have to because that's the structure of the game.

Michael Malice (21:28)

I think it was the last UK one, the last American one one. The guys figured it out and he's like, why are we voting out this trader? We know they're a traitor. And the other contests were like, what are you talking. It was like. It was like, what do you call it? Invasion of Body Statues? What are you talking about? We have to vote the shake. He's like, but why? We know who they are. It's like playing Minecraft. That's what's the mind game on Windows, the very early where you have to pick out the landmines.

Steven Fishbach (21:51)

Yeah, Minecraft. Oh, no, no. Minesweeper.

Michael Malice (21:54)

Minesweeper. It's like, yeah, here's the flag. I know this is a bomb. Like, why would you get rid of that bomb and then have it? But their eyes were just. That's another thing. Let's talk about this on reality tv. Some things that's most. One of the reasons I know, I bet you if I pushed work my Rolodex I could get an Amazing Race. One of the reasons I know I can never do that show is because a lot of like that show especially, they'll say you have to take a cab from this point to this point. And the cab driver is some subnormal demilingual thing who has no concept of language or urgency. And you're like, I need to get this place. I'm gonna lose a million dollars. They're like. And there's just no. And I'm sitting there at home and I'm like, I would literally kill this person. And I know my American passport would save me. Yeah.

Steven Fishbach (22:38)

No, that's why I would never do Amazing Race. It's basically like taxi cab roulette. Like, you get into the vat cab and you're like, that's. Then your game is over. If you get into the good cab and then. And then you win. Like, I.

Michael Malice (22:47)

The.

Steven Fishbach (22:47)

The stress of that and like, the randomness of that is so contrary to how I like to think about these games.

Michael Malice (22:52)

Let's talk about the stress of. It's not just the cab drives. In most of these games, you have to rely on dumb people and you have to work them. And it's really easy. I think you. And I think strategically it would be really easy for us to sit down and powwow. But if we have to bring in someone else into our group who does not think in these terms, the. Not just maybe you, but the cadet. How do they. How do. That's. That. Who's that one? Colton. Was that his name? The nerdy guy on which.

Steven Fishbach (23:16)

On which season?

Michael Malice (23:17)

The Survivor. He's. He was on twice. He's like, oh, Cochrane, Cochrane. And he had to bring that crazy lady with him to the end and his entire thing was like, I have to do emotion management for this. This dawn was her name who was like losing her mind on a daily basis.

Steven Fishbach (23:31)

But she also played a very good strategic game, Don. I feel like her. Her game is underrated. But like, yes, like, so much of being out there is, like, emotionally emotional. You know, the contestants are cast because they're emotionally volatile, not because they're great strategic thinkers. Although now actually that's somewhat changed where they are casting a lot more, like, strategic. Like, there's a lot more fans now in some ways to the detriment of the show because, you know, people are too smart and like, it becomes like just sort of a bunch of game bots. Is. Is the current critique of the show. You know, the critique used to be like, why are there not more game bots? Why do not more people know the game? But yes, like, that's one of the challenges and certainly something I wanted to get into in the book was like, you know, you are dealing with these contestants who are highly erratic and who are chosen because they're erratic. Like, you're not dealing with rational actors all the time. And like, that's. That's one of the Hardest challenges of being on these shows is like you're literally working with people who are chosen because they're over the top characters, not necessarily because they're like self interested game players, which is who you ideally like to be playing a game with and

Michael Malice (24:26)

then isolated from this friend, their support group. No food, no sleep. Like it's going to make anyone illuminated. One of the things you talk about that's very fun in this novel Escape is and I think this is something that's. Anyone who watched reality TV has increasingly or exponentially increasingly been aware that one the contestants is the production department. Like you and I and other people have talked about this, how production was a thing in Survivor. Like, oh, people just finding hidden immunity idols. Just, oh, just happen to be there. Drag Race is notorious for this is another show I watch and I know people are on the Food Network and like these shows are all fake. The judges have an earpiece. They're told who to like, who not to like. Has this becomes an. Tell me about how that inspired you in crafting this book.

Steven Fishbach (25:07)

Yeah, I mean I will say I think Survivor is actually like pretty is on the up and up. Like I think that they, you know, they have standards and practices that are. Right.

Michael Malice (25:13)

Well, hold on. They're not in the up in this regard. In that I think they. Something they wouldn't dispute. You have an hour and you have to craft a narrative and a lot of times the character you see on TV is going to be a shadow of the real person. So in that regard they don't. I don't think you have a choice though. Yeah, you have 16 people, 20 people. How are you going to make that person to flesh that character? It's impossible.

Steven Fishbach (25:33)

Well, that, and that's definitely something that I get into. I mean like that was, that's, I think like the core of the interesting thing about this book for me is this idea that you go in, you're like a rich three dimensional human being and then you're inherently being sort of reduced and turned into a cartoon. And I think there are certain shows are much more manipulative in that capacity. You get asked really leading questions that sort of prompt you not just even what to do, but also how to think. And then what I think is really interesting is how you are asked a question, you give a response, you know, because that's the response that's being prompted and you, it actually affects how you think and how you act and then how you think about yourself. You know, it's like, don't you, you know don't you want to vote out Michael? Isn't he a jerk? Like, no, no, I really like Michael. You know, he's, he's a great guy.

Michael Malice (26:18)

Like, but yeah, yeah.

Steven Fishbach (26:20)

And then you're like, yeah, but like, I guess Michael is sort of jerky in these ways. And then, you know, you leave that and you're like, you know what? Michael is kind of a jerk, you know, and then like, then I start to like, see your jerky components and suddenly in my mind, you're a jerk. And like I'm whatever the opposite of a jerk is, you know, like, it really like, affects just like your fundamental thought processes in this like, really fascinating way that I think is. Well, I mean, it's really was what I wanted to explore in the novel.

Michael Malice (26:43)

That's funny you said that, because I thought until now. When I was in high school, I went with my friend Eric to the comic book store and Eric had a very big book bag. And the guy working the comic store is like, probably 20. And he's like, oh, who's he? Because I went there every week and I go, oh, he's through my school, he's mentally handicapped. And now Eric is looking at the comic books. And once you put that out there, he's like, haha, very funny. But then it's in his head. It's like, are you kidding or not? Especially when you're completely socially isolated, when someone puts a seed in your head, it's going to ruminate because you can't turn on tv, you can't turn a podcast, can't read a book. Your entire identity is this game and you know that the people are trying to play against you. So you're gonna become a crazy person.

Steven Fishbach (27:23)

Well, and, and you do. You become like so paranoid. I mean, they literally are like. You're saying they're literally against you. Everyone is literally against you. And that's why makes the producer so beguiling is it's this one person there, they understand me. Yeah, right. They're smiling at you like, oh, tell me your story. Oh, I saw that you didn't, you know, you had a one less spoonful of rice at lunch. Like, wow, how noble of you. You're like, yeah, I really am noble. You know, like, they gas you. Yeah, really, they gas you up and then you're like, you know, they become your best friend, the one person you can trust out there. And so of course you're more inclined to take, you know, to, to want to spend time with them, to like, believe the things that they're saying to be, you know, to be influenced by the things that they're saying. What's also interesting is that of goes both ways, where I think the producers sort of, like, imprint. Is this the right. The phraseology. Like, they imprint on the contestants or like. Like, they also start to really get imprinted from. Yeah. Start to identify with the contestants a lot, you know, because, like, in the same way that a writer or novelist has, like, a main character, like, they identify with certain contestants and certain characters, and then, like, that becomes their sort of, you know, avatar within this game that's being played. And I, you know, I interviewed a lot of producers for this book, and one thing that I really. That I saw that was really interesting to me, and I don't know if this is true for Survivor, but, like, for the other games that I spoke to, they will sit down and have a story meeting every day, and there will be different producers, and they will literally argue over which storylines are the good storylines or the ones to track or the ones that they should push forward. And so they are kind of like, each storyteller is coming with their favorite contestants and their favorite storylines, and they're kind of like, like, battling it out to, like, control the overall storyline. And I just thought that was so fascinating. And it's like, other, like, aspect of reality tv, you don't see where it is, like, literally, like, dueling narratives for, like, what is meant to happen out there in the jungle.

Michael Malice (29:10)

Is there. Am I correct that there's an increasing understanding in the fandom that how much production plays the finger on the. On the scale in these different games? And how does production react to that?

Steven Fishbach (29:20)

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it becomes like, you know, I. I think sometimes now with the fandom, it almost is too much. Like, you think people are seeing things that aren't all.

Michael Malice (29:28)

Everything's a conspiracy.

Steven Fishbach (29:29)

Well, right, Exactly. Everything's a conspiracy. And so, like, you know, anything that happens, they're like, well, that must have been a production thing. Or, like, you know, I remember when Tyson, Speaking of years versus villains, can I. Can I spoil a TV show that was on 15 years ago, you know, accidentally, like, voted, they say, voted himself out, but he made a bad vote, and that got him eliminated. People, you know, there were all these conspiracies about how, like, production paid him off because they wanted, like, oh, yeah. You know, they wanted, like, this other character to move forward instead of him. And so that was like. I saw that narrative everywhere at the time. So I do think there's, like, a tendency to see too much of it.

Michael Malice (30:02)

And also, just because someone's in TV doesn't mean they're smart. Tyson is smart. Let's not get. But also, you have more information than they do. Like, they're in Plato's cave. Of course, sometimes you're going to swing for the fences. Babe Ruth did have a 1.0 batting average. You know, he struck out plenty of times.

Steven Fishbach (30:17)

Yeah. No, I mean, my second time I played Survivor, like, I made two big blunders, you know, in the game one, one of which ultimately cost me the game one. The first time I, like, let's see, I split. We split the votes when we shouldn't have split the votes, and the second time, we didn't split the votes when we should have split the votes or whatever. And like, literally, like, both times, people, the fandom was like, that's so stupid. Of course you don't split the votes there. And the other time, like, that's so stupid. Of course you split the vote. You know, like, it's easy to know when you see what's happening, you know, but of course, when you're out there, you're running through every single scenario, and you know the one, the one that you get wrong is the one that you're. You're eliminated on.

Michael Malice (30:52)

I remember I was on Cash Cab, and I'm really good at trivia, and there was a very obvious question. The answer was a space station mirror, and my brain was just not producing the information. And it's like, you don't know what it's. It's. People say it's easier at home. It's like, try to take the SATs when you're having a panic attack.

Steven Fishbach (31:08)

Exactly.

Michael Malice (31:09)

Like, when your adrenaline is high and you're in fight or flight, you're not in a position to think through, like, Russian space stations. Yeah. And it's. It's because when you're calm, the information is there. But when I think I was at two strikes at that point and that was my second strike, I'm like, if I lose Cash Cabs, I got spoiled something 20 years ago. Like, I will never hear the end of this. So I didn't lose, of course, but you. It's. And that's what, like half an hour? So you're. You're living in these people living in these situations. It's really. It's really easy to sit at home on your couch and judge. And also, you don't know. They're not cut. They're also not showing the literal hours of you going through every scenario in your head.

Steven Fishbach (31:46)

Yeah, I mean, and of course you're, you know, you're not sleeping well, you're getting rained on, you're not eating very much, you're malnourished, you're like brain is literally shutting down. I remember in my second season, Cambodia, there was one time where Jeff was asking me questions and I literally could not form words. Like I hadn't eaten or slept in three days and I was just like making like weird grunting sound.

Michael Malice (32:05)

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Steven Fishbach (35:55)

though, secretly, I Think you might.

Michael Malice (35:58)

But so why were you. Explain that. Why?

Steven Fishbach (36:02)

That's really interesting. That's a, it's a great. Like, why was I like, you know, was I ashamed? I mean, first of all, I was getting, you know, dogpiled by the Internet and of course that.

Michael Malice (36:09)

Were they really.

Steven Fishbach (36:10)

Oh, yeah, you know, you know what a loser I was. And I mean, so like, it's hard not to over index on that.

Michael Malice (36:18)

Let me, let me defend you. Let's take it out of Survivor. If you and 12 strangers or eight strangers have to live in the jungle with no resources, you're going to have a breakdown.

Steven Fishbach (36:29)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (36:29)

Even without a game, like it's, it's not normal. Yeah. And you can't talk to anyone you like and you have no other outlet. Like, how is that not going to break anybody?

Steven Fishbach (36:36)

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, listen, I agree with you. I agree with you. I was, I was crying. But like, like, I do think, you know, you know, you, you I think were maybe ahead of the culture in embracing, you know, crying. But, and I do think it's become more normative now for people to like, cry publicly on, on tv. Certainly within reality shows, I mean, certainly within Survivor specifically. Like everybody's crying all the time, but they didn't really share it that much back then. And I do think it sort of, you know, played into everything people didn't like about me. You know, there, there are people who like me. Like they like certain things about me and people who don't like me, they don't like certain, you know, like people like, I'm strategic and I'm like about the game and I like, I love the game or I'm like a wimpy little non leader, you know, so there, there's this, this, you know, whenever you sort of have this opportunity to dogpile, I feel like the Internet happily like jumps into that and is like more than eager.

Michael Malice (37:29)

Is that still a thing when people are emotional or is it less?

Steven Fishbach (37:32)

I don't think so anymore. Yeah, I mean, more. Honestly now it's more about like games stuff. Well, I guess so, I guess. But again, like to your point earlier, you know, even the game decisions are all like subpar because of the conditions.

Michael Malice (37:44)

One of the most disturbing things I've ever seen was the first President Bush, George H.W. bush. He was doing an interview and he cried a little bit because his daughter died when she was like three or five. Something horrific. And he's like, I'm sorry. I don't want people think I'm a sissy I'm like, your kid died. Like, I don't even want to say those words. And it's just like, this poor man who I despise. But I mean, like, I wouldn't wish this on anybody. Right. Like, and that you feel embarrassed that your heart's breaking thinking about it. I just. Just horrific. I. And it's. I don't know. I'm not someone who's big on crying, but, like, what's the context?

Steven Fishbach (38:15)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (38:15)

This guy's not crying because he, like, lost, you know, his shoe. He's crying because he's traumatized and naked in the woods, surrounded by enemies and doesn't have any resources to support him.

Steven Fishbach (38:26)

Yeah. I mean, the culture has obviously changed so much. I mean, especially since, you know, his era. Now we're all crying. We're all crying all the time. But, you know, maybe it's good.

Michael Malice (38:35)

So here's a question you're going to be. You don't want to answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Steven Fishbach (38:38)

Thank you.

Michael Malice (38:38)

Yeah. So there is an enormous. One thing you also talk about in the novel, which I am also very aware of. There's this enormous hierarchy in. You have this in the characters within reality tv. Right. And there's the people who are, like, even within Survivor, a Big Brother is the people everyone wants to meet. Like, who are you again? Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And it's not always the early outs. You know, some people make it all the end and no one cares. Anyway, having written this novel, does this put you at the A list and also the podcast that you like, the. The. In the A list of the Survivor people.

Steven Fishbach (39:07)

Oh, that's interesting.

Michael Malice (39:08)

That's.

Steven Fishbach (39:09)

This is going to elevate. I don't think I'm in the A list.

Michael Malice (39:11)

Who are the A list? Richard Hatch.

Steven Fishbach (39:12)

Harvard. Well, not Hatch anymore.

Michael Malice (39:14)

My gosh. He's not on the A list.

Steven Fishbach (39:15)

No, I don't think so. Because he's had so many troubles.

Michael Malice (39:17)

No. But if there's a Survivor convention.

Steven Fishbach (39:19)

Right.

Michael Malice (39:20)

Who's getting the longest lines? Richard Hatch.

Steven Fishbach (39:22)

Well, also, the thing about Richard is, like, he's kind of been out of the scene for a long time.

Michael Malice (39:26)

That's fair.

Steven Fishbach (39:26)

I feel like Parvati is like, Parvati Shallow is probably, like, the very top of the playlist. You know, she's someone who. She also. She came out with a memoir. You know, she just was on another, like, international edition of Survivor that she did very well on.

Michael Malice (39:40)

Oh, this shit.

Steven Fishbach (39:41)

Good for her. Yeah. Yeah. Really?

Michael Malice (39:42)

That's always surprising to me when, you know, Someone is like a. Like a. Like a tank. Get rid of them immediately.

Steven Fishbach (39:48)

It's crazy, but people were.

Michael Malice (39:50)

This was like, Tina Weston, like, the. She's the first out for a reason.

Steven Fishbach (39:53)

The people. But people were so starstruck by her, they wanted to keep her around, which is like, it's. I know, it's wild. Like, the. Like, other contestants were just so delighted to be playing with her. And then, of course, I mean, she also was playing with a very good friend of hers in Cerie. So, like, she.

Michael Malice (40:05)

Oh, yeah.

Steven Fishbach (40:07)

Siri is also someone. Honestly, I think a lot of it is. Is there's a recency element to it. You know, it's like, who. Who have I seen the most recently? And because Parvati is, like, constantly, you know, on these shows, you know, she, too, is on Traders. I think she's always going to be on. It's like, who's got the most TV credits now? It really did used to be, like, almost exclusively your ranking on the show, because, like, back when I was on, you know, maybe you'd go on twice. You know, most people went on once. Your ranking was there, like, etched in stone forever. And then, like, if you got super lucky, you got to go on the second time. And then, like, wow, Then. Then you were.

Michael Malice (40:40)

How many of these shows has to be done? This one's got 10. Literally.

Steven Fishbach (40:42)

She's been on. I mean, Survivor. She's been on now five times because she's going to be on season 50. So, you know, she was on the Traders. She was on this other show, Snake in the Grass. I mean, she was. You know, she's been on, you know, all these different shows, and now. So now, like, you know, becoming this sort of, you know, person that's part of this reality TV ecosystem. Like, of course, like, that elevates you into the. Into the strategy.

Michael Malice (41:00)

So who are the. So let's go through the name. It's Parvati Siree.

Steven Fishbach (41:02)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (41:02)

Is Boston Rob's got to be up there.

Steven Fishbach (41:04)

Oh, yeah. Boston Rob, too, now. I mean, Boston Rob, I feel like, is even. Even bigger now. I mean, he and Parvati are probably like, the top two, I think, in the franchise. I mean, Sandra's up there, obviously, but, you know, again, we just haven't. She's on Extracted right now. She's on Social. It's like another jungle show. You know.

Michael Malice (41:18)

How's that one play out? About.

Steven Fishbach (41:19)

Oh, gosh, I don't. I'm.

Michael Malice (41:22)

You're.

Steven Fishbach (41:22)

You have a family member out in the jungle surviving, and then, like, the rest of their family Is like in the booth, like watching. And I think like the family is then like, trying to like, get them items or somehow like competing to get them items, like, so that they can continue to survive or like trying to pull them out of the game. I actually don't totally know the mechanics, but I mean, speaking of, like, people becoming more self aware about the production, you know, edifice, there's like literally a group like, that's in the booth and then like, they're like watching their family members suffer.

Michael Malice (41:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Fishbach (41:51)

And so of course they're like, you know, come out like, we don't. We can't stand this. Like that sort of like emotional voyeurism, you know, is. Is really quite, quite intense.

Michael Malice (41:59)

How so? You host the Survivor podcast at this point, isn't it just the same shit? After 50 seasons? I stopped watching because I'm like, it's this. Because one of the things that drove me crazy about the early seasons is every season was in different location and they would have these reward, chat rewards and they go to meet the local people and they have this festival and they're like, I want to fast forward. Like, I don't care what's going on in. We're in Africa or Australia. And then now it's like they're all at the same beach. Yeah. And it's the same people every season. Characters, basically. It's like, I've seen this already. It can only play out so many ways.

Steven Fishbach (42:31)

It's the same. But it should. I love. It's okay.

Michael Malice (42:34)

It's the same story.

Steven Fishbach (42:34)

It's like delicious pizza, you know, like. Yeah, I love.

Michael Malice (42:37)

Okay, that's a good metaphor.

Steven Fishbach (42:38)

The, the, you know, and of course, like the metagame does evolve and like, you know, the production evolves and there's better seasons and worse seasons. I mean, it's like, it's really like any TV show, you know, it's like Law and Order. It's like, you know, every, you know, you know there's going to be a case that they're going to, you know, solve every week, but, like, you know, can't wait to dig in.

Michael Malice (42:53)

It's not like Law and Order because the case is different. Laura Narder. I think that they've given up on this kind of. Is it literally always the same beach

Steven Fishbach (43:00)

at this point now? It is always the same beaches. Yes. So that's, I mean, like, I'm curious to see because they're about to have their 50th season, which is. I think it'd be really exciting because they are Changing the format. They're bringing back more players than they've ever brought back before.

Michael Malice (43:12)

What do you mean?

Steven Fishbach (43:13)

24 people who've never had that many.

Michael Malice (43:15)

Okay.

Steven Fishbach (43:15)

And so, like, they're gonna have to do like totally different. You know, they're more eliminations than they've ever had. I don't know how they're going to do that. It's going to just be like a much more fast paced game.

Michael Malice (43:23)

You don't know, you know?

Steven Fishbach (43:24)

No, I really don't. I really don't. Okay.

Michael Malice (43:26)

Hasn't. Hasn't. Has it not taken place already?

Steven Fishbach (43:28)

No, it's taken place.

Michael Malice (43:29)

So you avoid the spoilers.

Steven Fishbach (43:30)

Yeah, I try to avoid this. I mean, a podcast about it. So I, like, I want to be smart.

Michael Malice (43:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Fishbach (43:34)

But, but like, I literally have no idea how they're going to do like multiple eliminations every episode. And then two, it's like they're bringing back contestants from every era of the show. So there's someone from the first season who's.

Michael Malice (43:46)

From the first season.

Steven Fishbach (43:46)

Jenna Lewis.

Michael Malice (43:47)

Oh, she's the one. Was she the one who was sued? No, no. Oh, she's the one that had the kid.

Steven Fishbach (43:51)

She at the time had the.

Michael Malice (43:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, what's my kid's name?

Steven Fishbach (43:53)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (43:54)

Wasn't that her? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

Steven Fishbach (43:57)

So they're really going back, you know, back to the wall. And then there's people, of course, from that. The heroes were Sariya's back there and Ozzy, who's another.

Michael Malice (44:05)

Oh, yeah, okay.

Steven Fishbach (44:05)

But then there's also people from this last season. So I think it will be fun to see the different characters from different eras interact and then maybe they'll do something new in the next era of the show. To me, as someone who knows this game intimately and has been talking about it for so long, you just start to see finer and finer minutiae. And also I think it's the psychology of it is still really interesting. Like you, you get to see people at their most raw, at their most vulnerable, you know, and one of the things I talk about in the book too is like, these people are not just out there to play a game or be famous or like have their 15 minutes or like, you know, hit the hierarchy at the reality TV charity events. They're there because they want something authentic and human and, you know, something I know you talk about a lot is this sort of like desire for meaning.

Michael Malice (44:50)

Right.

Steven Fishbach (44:50)

That like people have especially acutely today. And that's, I think, really prevalent now with reality television, like, people go on these shows, especially these wilderness shows, like, seeking out meaning. They're looking for some connection to some authentic self or to some, like, version of humanity that we no longer find in our contemporary society.

Michael Malice (45:10)

Like Thoreau.

Steven Fishbach (45:11)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. Exactly like Thoreau. So, like, I find that really interesting where people are going out with very earnest expectations, but also are playing a game and also our characters and their memeing and just like, the, the tension between all of those aspects is, I feel like a very human tension. And it's, like, interesting to see, like, this sort of, you know, crucible of all those things in conflict.

Michael Malice (45:30)

One of the things that I was really impressed with this book is it's almost impossible to write a novel about a subject that's been so beaten to death and so low class. I'm not saying this pejorative as, like, reality tv. And you did it. So I'm very curious. You got an mfa?

Steven Fishbach (45:45)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (45:46)

So I've always thought having an MFA was a waste of time. I guess I was wrong. What were some of the biggest things that MFA program teaches you?

Steven Fishbach (45:53)

Yeah, I also, like, I resisted getting an MFA for so long because I also was like, you know, if I just need to write, I'll. I'll go and write. And then I did that, and I wrote a really bad book. And so I was like, you know what? I can do that.

Michael Malice (46:03)

It's called escape.

Steven Fishbach (46:04)

Yeah, exactly. Here it is. And so I, I, you know, I really. I thought I could do better. So I went. And basically it was just the, The. The time and attention and almost just like the talking about it. You know, you sort of like just it. You keep experimenting and keep experimenting and you're told what works and what doesn't work, what you're doing well. And the mentorship, you know, people, someone to identify, like, this is what's successful about your writing, and this is what's not working so well about your writing. I had, you know, a couple wonderful mentors. One guy in particular, John Freeman, just said, like, you know, this is where, you know, this is what's funny. Like, this is like kind of like. Like, kind of like he's like, go for it. Just like, take a swing. You know, be bigger, be funnier. And that kind of just like liberated me because I was. I felt like I was writing a book. Like, I thought a book had to be written.

Michael Malice (46:50)

It's like how acting is like, oh, I'm acting. It's like, no, no, that's bad acting, bad writing. When people use big words, like, that's not how people talk.

Steven Fishbach (46:56)

Yeah. And like, just liberating it to be, like, fun. And, like, I wanted to write something fun that people would enjoy reading rather than just like, my book, you know, my serious book that will, like.

Michael Malice (47:05)

So the MFA validated that. They actually, they encouraged you to kind of make it lower brow, not in a negative sense, but, like, you're not trying to write Dostoyevsky. So why it's going to fail if you try for that anyway?

Steven Fishbach (47:15)

I think so. I think, I really think. I mean, I think, you know, I think there probably were more rigorous genre strictures back in the day, but I think now a lot of these programs, and certainly mine through nyu, really encouraged experimentation, you know, across a lot of different genres, which was. Which was really fun and really exciting. I mean, you know, and yeah, again, like, you just kind of learn, like, what you're good at and you can and lean into that.

Michael Malice (47:36)

So having a podcast. So Drag Race is notorious for having the worst fans. Like, you laugh, but, like, these a lot makes them so bad because the vitriol is, like, insane. And the worst case scenario is like, okay, two drag queens got in a fight, and these are people who don't have a lot of money, who are, you know, like, living paycheck to paycheck. They don't have jobs, and then they make some fight in some show and they come home and it's thousands of messages telling them to end themselves. Racist stuff, you're disgusting. Blah, blah, blah. These are not people with big egos, really mentally fragile to begin with. And it's like, really dark. Do you have to deal with some of that stuff, posting a Survivor podcast?

Steven Fishbach (48:17)

Honestly, no. I mean, somehow, yeah. I mean, we actually have an amazing community. And that I think is a testament. So I do this podcast through this network called Rob Has a podcast. As far, if you don't know about it, the Rob Sestronino who, you know, was a sort of one of the great originators of Survivor strategy, then went on to. It was just on the Traders, as you mentioned, and then has been hosting this podcast, has really built up this incredibly supportive community. It's just like, overwhelmingly positive, but not in, like, a toxic way. You know, it's just like, people are nice to each other, like, they respect each other and they're, like, kind. I mean, I'm sure there are, you know, different factions that I'm not aware of, you know, within, like, the community. But, like, I. I truly have not seen it. Like, there was, you Know, we used to do. Or we do these live shows. I haven't been to one for a while, but, like, we, you know, since I had kids, but we do these live shows and, you know, bring the community together. Everyone gets together. And at some point, I realized that, like, you know, I thought people. Oh, people were coming to see us do our podcast. Like, that was the event. In fact, no, like, people were coming to see each other. And our podcast was just kind of like the excuse for that to happen. Like, the community had like, become just like a nice little niche community.

Michael Malice (49:22)

I think it's very healthy. I think people need that, and I think people need to leave their house and have friends and. And it's something that's a positive thing to bond over because it's a frivolous thing.

Steven Fishbach (49:29)

Well, I think that was kind of exactly it. There were all these people out there. I mean, now there's so many places to find people who are like, fellow travelers and whatever your interest is. But when Rob started this podcast, there were all these people who had this niche interest in Survivor, and they took the strategy really seriously. They took this ridiculous reality show so seriously. And then suddenly there was this tentpole community that was saying, welcome, come join us. We're all interested in this insane, ridiculous thing. And they found fellow spirits. And weirdly, being interested in Survivor also correlates to other interests. Strategy, generally. Reading. When I submitted my book people, a lot of editors said, we're not going to. The editors who passed said they didn't think that Survivor viewers would buy a book, which is not so kind. But the podcast community has really turned out, and so it's been, like, really cool to.

Michael Malice (50:19)

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Steven Fishbach (52:14)

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Michael Malice (52:34)

Let's get back to the show. So I have a question that's only tongue in cheek, but you're going to get. You're going to see where I'm going with this because I obliquely referenced you. I spoke at Scott Adams Memorial recently and I mentioned how there's people in your life who you haven't talked to in a long time, but if you saw them would make your day. You have nothing positive to say about them. And you're one of those people like we haven't talked in a few years, but I'm very happy to see you. I'm very excited. We're going to have dinner after this. And then I asked myself, wait a minute. Whenever I have a disproportionate emotional response, I always ask myself, where is this coming from? Especially what's a negative one. Because a lot of times it's not about the thing. It's about, like, when I was a kid or some other job, and I'm like, is this because I usually have that strong feeling about someone because I could be myself and feel seen and appreciated? Or is this your survivor sociopathy where you have learned how to ingratiate yourself with people?

Steven Fishbach (53:20)

Yeah, I do think there's an element to it.

Michael Malice (53:22)

So I'm only half kidding.

Steven Fishbach (53:23)

So with this specifically. Yeah, I know, I know.

Michael Malice (53:26)

Know.

Steven Fishbach (53:26)

This is entirely sociopathy. I've never liked you, but.

Michael Malice (53:29)

But many such cases.

Steven Fishbach (53:30)

Yeah, exactly. I do think there's an element where you come off of these shows and you become, like, much more aggressively charming in a way that, like, I kind of like when I. Right after I was on the show, like, sort of like, I had to, like, put you put your, like, guard up. And whenever you would meet someone just off the show, you could feel them, like, aggressively trying to break that down.

Michael Malice (53:49)

What's that?

Steven Fishbach (53:50)

Like, what is it like to. To have it happen to you?

Michael Malice (53:53)

Or, like, what are these techniques? Like, what changed?

Steven Fishbach (53:55)

I think it's a really good question

Michael Malice (53:57)

because I'm sure it's subliminal on some level because it comes your life when you're on the island, right?

Steven Fishbach (54:01)

You have, like. You only, like, progress in the game because you are doing it. That's a really good question. I haven't honestly thought about it. I just, like, know that there's, like, this, like, energy exuding of energy. I think that, like, people, like, respond to very well that you kind of, like, need. I also think, like, just the very fact of. I remember my first interview to a camera, you know, so I was so awkward. I was, like, shy. I was, you know, I didn't, you know, really want to talk about myself. Like, I was never, you know, no one really asks you about the minutiae of your day and the way that you're getting asked about the minutiae of your day. But then by the end of the show, you're like, yeah, I ate all that rice. And like, you know, suddenly you become bigger and more flamboyant. I mean, hopefully not cartoonishly so, but maybe cartoonishly so to a certain degree. And I think that's part of it. You know, you become like, just like a. More of a character. You're more proud performing, and maybe honestly more than. It's Machiavellian. People respond to that. Like, do people respond to caricature more than they respond to someone who Is being authentic because it's, like, easier to digest.

Michael Malice (54:59)

Yes. And I know this myself because I. Spoiler. Well, I don't know. Whenever I meet someone who's a fan, I'm always super nice because I've met people who I'm fans of, and when they're not super nice, it really is disappointing. Yeah. However, given who I am, if I'm mean, but in a tongue in cheek way, they love it because it's like getting roasted by Michael Malice.

Steven Fishbach (55:20)

That's what I think. Groucho Marx, like, he had, like, he had to insult everybody all the time. He was, like, overwhelmed with the pressure of having to constantly insult people.

Michael Malice (55:26)

It's not. It's. I. I'm really good at.

Steven Fishbach (55:28)

Here's the pressure for you.

Michael Malice (55:29)

I think I'm better at the crouch, to be honest. But it's. It's when you are kind of. Because you're putting. Because from their perspective, I'm putting on a show for them, like, they're personally getting roasted. Like, I can see how they would enjoy that because they also know it's not coming from a hateful place. Yeah.

Steven Fishbach (55:44)

Well, I think that's. I think that is what it is. I think, like, that's part of it. Right. Like, you are, like, being the sort of, like, biggest version, most essential version of yourself. But there probably also is, like, just an element of. You're probably right. That there's this learned element of, you know, a lot of eye contact. I mean, which is that.

Michael Malice (56:02)

Okay.

Steven Fishbach (56:02)

You know, classic. But you make great eye contact. So, I mean, are you manipulating. Are you manipulating me?

Michael Malice (56:06)

Well, I'm listening to me.

Steven Fishbach (56:08)

Yeah. Yeah. I remember there was this story about Bill Clinton where, like, an interview was like, why am I so beguiled by Bill Clinton? And that you've heard. I mean, and, you know, like, something about him, like, it's just so magnetic. And then, like, Clinton, like, he was drinking, you know, a glass with Diet Coke and ice in it, and he, like, went to take a sip and, like, the interviewer realized he was, like, still making eye contact through the bottom of the glass. Like, he never broke icon.

Michael Malice (56:30)

Okay.

Steven Fishbach (56:31)

Yeah. Like, that was like, you know, so much of his charm was just that, like, you know, focus and attention. I think that's probably what it is. It's like a level of, like, focus and attention on another person that you do get trained. It's like a training school for manipulators. Right.

Michael Malice (56:46)

The other thing, I had a friend who was on Big Brother, and he talked about how when you're on these shows, you just become a better liar.

Steven Fishbach (56:53)

Yeah, well, that's it. Like, again, like, you're not used to lying to people's faces when, you know, and then someone asks you something, you know, you're like, I don't know. Yeah. You know when you have to like, are you voting me out? No. No, I'm not voting you out. You know, you look away, you look at the fee. You know, by the end, you're like, no, I would never vote you out. You're my best friend. How would I ever vote you out?

Michael Malice (57:11)

You know, being crazy, you have to gaslight them too. Yeah, true. Not only you have to lie, you have to make them think they're crazy for thinking it.

Steven Fishbach (57:15)

And you have to come up with a whole other story, like, on the spot. Like, oh, yeah, you know, we're voting out Sally. You know, Sally's a monster. We have to get rid of her. She's, you know, killing morale. And you just, like, have to do it instantaneously and, yeah, I guess you're trained to be a liar, basically.

Michael Malice (57:28)

That's the other thing. People at home don't realize that. Maybe they do. Maybe it's part of the canon now, but whatever. On Survivor, someone has to be the scapegoat. And whoever is the victim is told, no, we're voting out with this other person. And I don't know if that always makes it to the screen, but they never think, oh, I don't know who anyone's voting for. They're like, oh, they feel safe because they know who else is going.

Steven Fishbach (57:46)

Yeah, they're in on the plan.

Michael Malice (57:47)

Like, that's the thing.

Steven Fishbach (57:48)

Yeah, they're. They're. They think they. They think they're pulling off a blind side, and when, in fact, they're the ones getting blindsided, which in some ways mitigates it, you know, Are you really so innocent if you thought you were screwing over that other person?

Michael Malice (57:58)

So without naming names, is there, like, talk behind the scenes of who these contestants are, who are, like, big phonies and who are, like, good people?

Steven Fishbach (58:06)

That's so interesting. I mean, I do think now, I don't know, like, it's.

Michael Malice (58:10)

It's so hard because, like, I'll give you one example. I know. You don't. You don't.

Steven Fishbach (58:13)

Is it gonna be Eric Stein again?

Michael Malice (58:15)

No. Russell Hans. Oh, so Russell Hands for People don't know. He was, like, one of the biggest liars ever in the show. They brought him back at least once, maybe twice.

Steven Fishbach (58:22)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (58:22)

And not through you, from other people. Who were on the show. Like he would lie about things that he didn't need. So within the context there's like acceptable lies and unacceptable. But he'd be like, oh, my wife has like the biggest accent and they met her and she talks fine. It's like, what utility did this serve other than you're just a crazy person.

Steven Fishbach (58:39)

Right. Lying for like no reason other than just lying. I actually think there's less of that now and maybe it is because they cast people who are all super fans of the show. They're all interested in Survivor, the game. You know, most of these people are sort of like well adjusted corporate types, you know, and they come out and then they, you know, they're sort of. Again, they're the most intensified versions of themselves. They've been through Survivor training school. But they are also still basically nice people. Whereas back in the day I do think they looked for more erratic people who were maybe lied more fluidly. He was an extreme example. He lied about having been a firefighter during 9 11. Right. Or something crazy like that.

Michael Malice (59:19)

Holy crap.

Steven Fishbach (59:20)

Maybe it wasn't 9 11, but it was some crazy thing or a first responder in Sandy or something. I mean it was some, something like why are you, you know, why, why are you telling this lie?

Michael Malice (59:28)

Well, that you would tell because it makes him look like a hero.

Steven Fishbach (59:29)

Right?

Michael Malice (59:30)

That makes sense to me.

Steven Fishbach (59:31)

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

Michael Malice (59:33)

So can you describe to people as best you can. You and I have talked about this personally in the past, what it's like to be in these conditions where you have no food, no shelter and like you're just, just not forgetting the game just physically. How do you handle that? Yeah, the hunger.

Steven Fishbach (59:45)

Yeah, I mean that's, I mean it's truly relentless. Of course you're, you are endlessly hungry. I mean, you're eating just a few spoonful. I mean at least in my first season we would eat like a few spoonfuls of rice a day. I lost 35 pounds. So like, you know, I'm not a huge guy to begin with. I was a skeleton when I stepped off the show. But weirdly be like there reaches a point at least back in the day again, like around the midpoint, around day 18 or 19 of this 39 of what was a 39 day season. Now the seasons are shortened to 26 days.

Michael Malice (60:14)

Oh, they are?

Steven Fishbach (60:14)

Yeah. That's like a post Covid thing. They shorten the seasons and. Yeah. Well, listen, your reaction is much of the fan, much of the fandom's reaction. It'll be like the 26 days.

Michael Malice (60:24)

What's the.

Steven Fishbach (60:25)

I think because they can, you know, I think like. Because like they just at some point shortened it like post Covid. I think it was considered a precautionary measure or something. I have no idea.

Michael Malice (60:34)

I'm sorry, I haven't done it. But there's such, I would think, physiological for every. In every sense. There's a profound difference between 26 and 39.

Steven Fishbach (60:41)

Well, yeah, I mean, it's. It's just that, I mean, truly, like that extra two weeks was. Now I'm really getting into like, you know, heated Survivor fan discourse here because of course all of the OGs think that like, yo, these, these 26 days, they don't even know what like.

Michael Malice (60:54)

They don't though. They literally don't.

Steven Fishbach (60:56)

I do think that.

Michael Malice (60:56)

I'm sure it gets exponentially worse. Am I wrong?

Steven Fishbach (60:58)

Yes. No. No, you're not wrong. It becomes much, much worse. Now they say they give them fewer supplies. They don't like, necessarily give them flint, which every tribe used to get on Survivor, that you don't automatically get flint so you can lose that. That's got to be terrible.

Michael Malice (61:10)

Sure.

Steven Fishbach (61:11)

Without any fire at all. But yes, I do think like the wearing aspect of that time, the other thing that they don't have is boredom, which was one of the biggest challenges of Survivor was we would have entire days where we would do nothing. And you're not like hanging out because you literally have nothing. You know, you don't have games, you don't have any books to read, but

Michael Malice (61:28)

you don't talk like you bond that way.

Steven Fishbach (61:29)

You think you would bond, but it's like you're kind of like too tired and like you're sick of these people. You know, like, you've been like, yeah, I don't want to. Like, you've run out of stories. I don't need to hear your stories again. And just more like you're tired, you're irritable, you're hungry, you don't really even like, have the energy to speak. And so you're just like lying there for days on end. It would be. And that was one of the hardest aspects of the show that no longer is the case. I've asked some of these new era contestants, like, what do you do during the downtime? And they're like, downtime, we're just constantly go, go, go. So I think that does make it easier. But yes, like the 39 days around day 18, your body kind. At least my body kind of acclimated. So I felt like I was hungry, but it didn't feel as acute, it wasn't as intense. I probably lost all the muscle mass I was going to lose and I had just reached this like equilibri where I was kind of okay, you know, I felt like okay in the elements. I felt, you know, I didn't enjoy the starvation, but I felt okay with it. And that was, that was neat. That was cool.

Michael Malice (62:27)

What percent of contestants don't like Jeff Probst?

Steven Fishbach (62:32)

I think every contestant loves Jeff Probst.

Michael Malice (62:34)

I can think of one example who does not.

Steven Fishbach (62:35)

Who's that?

Michael Malice (62:36)

I'm not going to name.

Steven Fishbach (62:37)

Okay, well, I feel like people, it's like daddy Jeff. You know, everyone wants Jeff's approval. If they don't like him, it's because they're mad at him because like, like, you know, he doesn't love them.

Michael Malice (62:43)

I, I've imagined being in that travel council and just going off on him. Yeah, I think there's, I, I, I, I don't like that, that shit eating grin he has. It drives me crazy.

Steven Fishbach (62:52)

I feel like when you're out there, like, you know, because he's the one who's like, he's like, he'll ask you a question and you'll be like, you'll give an answer and he'll be like, no. And he'll go to the next person, you're like, oh my gosh, I've let down dad, you know, like, oh, I've like failed. Like I've failed to give the good answer. And so like, next time he asks me that question, I really want to give the good answer.

Michael Malice (63:08)

Oh, wow. That's really the dynamics.

Steven Fishbach (63:09)

I mean it's like that, like that abrupt. But he'll like go down the line and you'll know when you've nailed it, you know, like say he'll ask the same question to multiple people and you'll know, oh, like he liked that one. You know, you just like, you can read him because you've been there for a couple weeks.

Michael Malice (63:23)

What, what are the biggest things that you learned writing this book in terms of how production manufactures these shows?

Steven Fishbach (63:30)

The big, I would say, I mean, again, I think it is through, I mean, of course what you're referring to is editing kind of thing to think about, like the biggest things. That's an interesting question because you say

Michael Malice (63:40)

you interviewed a lot of producers.

Steven Fishbach (63:41)

Yeah, the biggest things I would say that I learned. And this was so most of my interviewing was not about Survivor. Like I spoke, of course, honestly, like how sort of like, fly by the seat of their pants. It is. You know how like, oftentimes these shows are, you know, I mean, Survivor is a huge edifice, right? I think when people think of reality shows, they think of like, Survivor with its like 300 crew members. You know, they're like separate Marine teams.

Michael Malice (64:04)

Is it literally 300?

Steven Fishbach (64:05)

It's probably up to that.

Michael Malice (64:07)

Holy crap.

Steven Fishbach (64:07)

It's like, it's crazy. Like, there's, you know, know it's a huge institution, right? There's like different teams that do like, literally every different thing. There's like a logistics team. There's like a Marine team. There's. There's a team that just gets like the slow mo shots, you know? Okay, so there's. It's, it's a real, I mean, it's a real industry in and of itself. They think of themselves as like the fifth sport or something. I don't know. I mean, the Challenge calls itself the fifth sport, but the Survivor too, I think it thinks of itself as a sport. But I would say, like, for a lot of these shows, just like how kind of ad hoc they are. You know, I was in casting once for another show. They called me up, they wouldn't even tell me, like, where this show was. They couldn't tell me, like, what the challenges were. You know, this was like post Survivor and like, I don't even think they knew necessarily, like, the structure and format of the show that they were currently casting. The producers show up on set often times having as raw an experience as the contestants in many ways. You know, I think that was something that was really interesting to learn how, you know, know they're going into the wilderness and like, yes, they're getting food and yes, they have, like, more control over their fate, but they're like in a workplace environment that could be a toxic workplace. I mean, that's something I tried to evoke in the book.

Michael Malice (65:14)

Yeah, very much.

Steven Fishbach (65:16)

You know, they. They have co workers, they have colleagues, they're in the jungle. They're like, they're excited to experience the jungle too. You know, they're like, wow, I'm like going off into the jungle to do this cool thing, you know, but they also, of course, have to work. And so that creates its own tensions. And of course, like, a lot of it is just about the way that the story is told. I mean, one of the things that I guess I took away the most was, you know, they really are like amazing storytellers. Like, they are telling a three act, well structured story using real people in like, the most chaotic environment possible. Like, that's. That's really interesting and challenging.

Michael Malice (65:50)

You did something really smart with this book and I was very impressed with. And I'm doing saying that because it's also complimenting me because I did the same thing. And I'll tell you exactly what it is, is so when I was writing my book on North Korea, dear reader, and it was based on all the propaganda that things that they say, people were like, oh, you played it up. I go, no, no, no, no. I toned it down as much as possible. I wanted to be like, no, no. This is what they actually say. And here's a great example of that in North. In Pyongyang, capital city of North Korea, they have something called the Tower of the Juchi idea. The Juchi idea being the Great Leader Kim Il Sung's ruling ideology. And it's an obelisk with a flame at the top. Like it's actually restored. And according to their literature, this was Dear Leader Kim Jong Il's idea to make it the biggest obelisk in the world. And no one had ever thought of this before. Right. So what's the backstory for that to have happened? So I have a meeting of all the top architects in Pyongyang, which certainly would have happened. They're going to put their top guys in this monument and they're having a brainstorm and Kim Jong Il comes in and they go, here are our plans, Dear Leader. It's going to be the second tallest obelisk in the world. And he goes, we should make it the tallest. They go, we never thought of that before. But that would have to be the sequence of events if their claim that no one had thought this before was true. So when people think of ridiculous reality tv, it's not going to be, oh, lesbian albinos in wheelchairs. It's going to be what you had in the book, which is a show about dogs who surf. It's going to be something so stupid that it's going to take you a day to think about, like, what's the dumbest show? There was a show I remember called Groomer has it where it's about dog groomers. And one of the finalists spoiler was like, I'm blah, blah, blah, and everyone's gonna know my name. They will not. There are no circumstances. Although that girl a Girl Dogs YouTube channel is really popular. But I don't even know her name. But it's just like, what are you talking about? How did you come up with something so dumb but realistic yeah, well, Surf Dogs.

Steven Fishbach (67:43)

So I just saw a picture on Facebook when I was sort of. That was kind of like, basically what my thinking was, like, how do I create a show that's so stupid but could be real? Because, like, what I. I mean, this is not the show, of course, that the Escape is set on, but, like, it's like before Escape starts there in this. This. This producer is filming this very absurd show called Surf Dogs. And a lot of what I wanted, especially in the first section of the book, was capturing the full absurdity of just like the landscape of reality television. And, yeah, I was thinking, like, what would be something so stupid that you couldn't believe it existed and yet you

Michael Malice (68:15)

could believe it existed.

Steven Fishbach (68:17)

And I happened to see on Facebook, like, a photograph, like a professional photograph of a surfing dog. Like, that was like high def. And obviously this photographer really took it seriously. And like, that, to me, is the heart of reality television. Just this absurdity combined with, like, how seriously people take it.

Michael Malice (68:32)

And I think also, if you. Typical Steven.

Steven Fishbach (68:35)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (68:35)

I think also if you play it's just water. I think also if you had some of the shows that are real, it wouldn't seem realistic. If you had MILF island or MILF Manor, which is a real show. You know about that, right? No, wait, you're joking. Wait, but that was.

Steven Fishbach (68:49)

That was. That was like a 30 rock show, right?

Michael Malice (68:51)

They made it a real show.

Steven Fishbach (68:52)

No, no, no.

Michael Malice (68:53)

You're joking.

Steven Fishbach (68:53)

No, really,

Michael Malice (68:56)

I get to tell Steven Fishbach about this. That's. Yeah, on 30 Rock, it was called MILF Island.

Steven Fishbach (69:02)

Cause I know they had Virgin island.

Michael Malice (69:05)

So on 30 Rock, they had MILF Island. Yeah, they had a real show called MILF Manor, where it's a bunch of young dudes who like dating older women. Right. They're all in the house together. But the was. These were the sons and their moms.

Steven Fishbach (69:17)

Wait, no, that's so broken. That's so messed up.

Michael Malice (69:21)

The second season.

Steven Fishbach (69:22)

No, no, no, no, no.

Michael Malice (69:23)

The second season, it was the MILFs dating sons and their dads.

Steven Fishbach (69:27)

Wait, well, just give me the premise again, because. So you go into this show, you know your mom is going to be.

Michael Malice (69:32)

No, no. But I don't know how they cast it, because you have to be. Find young dudes who are open or. Or prefer, I think they kind of tweak it. It are open to any older women and older women who are into younger

Steven Fishbach (69:44)

dudes, but obviously, obviously, they're not meant to be dating their moms, but they're dating other older women in the house.

Michael Malice (69:50)

Other Moms, Everyone's a mom.

Steven Fishbach (69:52)

Sons are there.

Michael Malice (69:53)

No. The sons of the dating pool.

Steven Fishbach (69:54)

Right, right, right. But you're also watching your mom be dated by, you know, someone your age.

Michael Malice (69:59)

Yes. Wow. And then the second season, you're competing with your dad for the same women. And I say, bring on the apocalypse. But the thing is, if you had that in the book, it would be an eye roll because you wouldn't believe it.

Steven Fishbach (70:11)

Yeah, I mean, and honestly, like what I wanted to do was capture like a realistic texture to what it's like on to actually be on a reality show. Because I do think that oftentimes in books about reality TV and there have been some, it's just cartoonishly over the top, you know, that's my point.

Michael Malice (70:24)

Why? You did well with this one.

Steven Fishbach (70:26)

Well, yeah, but I mean, and even like when I was like, I mean, when I was workshopping it, you know, in my MFA program, you know, your question is like, you know, people were like, it should be more over the top. You know, like, why isn't there an AI in here? You know, it's like, why isn't, why aren't they fighting to the death? You know, and, and what? I mean, and I was like, you know, that could be a cool book, but like that's not my book. I wanted to tell something that was, I thought I had unique insight into, which was like the real texture of these shows.

Michael Malice (70:49)

The real stuff's crazy. Like with North Korea. The real stuff's far school. Enough already. You don't need to add any pepper to mix.

Steven Fishbach (70:54)

It kind of it becomes like, then it just becomes like sort of too cartoonish almost.

Michael Malice (70:56)

That's right, yeah. The book is called Escape. It is available now. I have my own signed copy. Stephen, we're running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

Steven Fishbach (71:03)

Oh gosh, just right now, when you held up and said this book is called Escape, that was my favorite part of the plug.

Michael Malice (71:10)

You are welcome. Hey, it's James Albucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand up comic and whatever it

Steven Fishbach (71:29)

is I'm interested in, I get obsessed.

Michael Malice (71:31)

Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count.

Steven Fishbach (71:38)

I wish in my life I had had people to talk to.

Michael Malice (71:41)

That's why I started the James Alcatraz show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life.

Steven Fishbach (71:47)

People like Richard Branson, Sara Blakely, Mark

Michael Malice (71:50)

Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov and I wanted to find out exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows, and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice.

Steven Fishbach (72:02)

I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet, so if

Michael Malice (72:07)

you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking,

Steven Fishbach (72:15)

and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together.

Michael Malice (72:19)

Subscribe now to the James Altucher show at Pluto tv.

Steven Fishbach (72:24)

We're celebrating Black History Month with our free curated collection of black entertainment. No ifs, ands or buts about catch award winning films like Dreamgirls, Monster's Ball and Selma. We must make a massive demonstration iconic hits like School Days and Set It Off. Plus full seasons of shows like Tyler Perry's Sistas and and Power. I got you it. Star studded brilliant Black entertainment. And it's all free. It's getting good this month and always on Pluto tv Stream now. Hey never. Wherever you go,

Michael Malice (73:00)

whatever they get into,

Steven Fishbach (73:02)

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Michael Malice (73:18)

Ask your vet for Cordelio Quattro and visit quattrodog.com.