Podcast Summary: "YOUR WELCOME" with Michael Malice – Steve Sailer (#361)
Episode Theme & Purpose
Michael Malice sits down with controversial commentator and writer Steve Sailer to discuss Sailer's new book, Noticing, political correctness, race, IQ, identity politics, the rise of transgender topics in American culture, and why certain conversations are “taboo” in the public sphere. The conversation ranges from Sailer's catchphrase "political correctness is a war on noticing" to sociological patterns in American society, the legacy of "The Bell Curve," and the mechanisms of modern social control.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Concept of "Noticing" and the Taboo of Observation
- Political Correctness as “A War on Noticing”
- [02:47] Steve Sailer explains his catchphrase:
“Political correctness ... is a war on noticing. That ... we live in a world of complicated, interesting patterns ... And you’re not supposed to notice some. Half the time you ... learn what you’re not supposed to notice, what you’re supposed to act ignorant about. But why? It takes half the fun out of life.”
- [02:47] Steve Sailer explains his catchphrase:
- Taboos Across Cultures
- [03:38] Michael compares American taboos with those in North Korea and Soviet/Russian culture, where some subjects can be spoken about freely while others are strictly off-limits.
- [04:46] Sailer observes the shift in America from overt censorship to “junior volunteer auxiliary thought police”—social pressures that keep people in line even without government intervention.
- [05:52]
“It’s not Orwell’s 1984... Instead, we developed ... this junior volunteer auxiliary thought police who were just really gung ho about tracking down anything...” —Sailer
2. The Great Awokening and Its Aftermath
- [07:13] Sailer expresses guarded optimism that “the craziness of the last dozen years is kind of over,” particularly the intensity from 2020–2023.
- [07:50] He analyzes shifts in the hierarchy of “woke” identity politics and which groups remain invested:
“By 2024 it was basically black women and trans at the top. And everybody else started feeling like, ‘Hey, what’s in it for me?’ ... You got like Portuguese Americans, French Canadian Americans, Persian Jews, followers of the Maharishi ... all off the woke train and voting for Trump. We’ll see what happens after this. The future is unwritten.”
3. The Absurdity of Racial and Ethnic Categories
- [09:32] Malice critiques the logic of the “Asian” category in American discourse, which flattens huge cultural differences into single labels.
- [10:46] Sailer describes the shifting official categories, recounting how South Asians sought to be counted as "Asian" instead of "White" for policy benefits.
“Who wants to be white in 21st-century America?” —Sailer [10:46]
4. Government Racial Categories: Flawed but Functional
- [12:31] Sailer reflects how, despite initial skepticism, the broad racial categories used by the government "are probably good enough for government work and they're not that bad. ... But yeah, we could subdivide them more in the future."
- [13:50] Noting scientists’ approach to human diversity:
“So the splitters among human scientists ... go, ‘We’re totally against having a big category like Asians. What we should do is split everybody out into small little groups.’ And that’s, that’s not racist at all. Everybody’s trying to stay employed these days and not get canceled. So, you know, God bless them.” —Sailer
5. Race, IQ, and The Bell Curve
- [15:13] Malice introduces The Bell Curve and the controversy around even mentioning population-level IQ gaps, emphasizing that the original authors “make pains to say … this should not be used in any way to … codify bigotry.”
- [16:21] Sailer on following the data:
“I've been a fan of the social sciences... When they actually looked at the data from the Coleman Report of 1966 onward, it kind of turned out that how much was spent on schools didn't really matter in terms of test scores compared to what the students brought with them from home—upbringings, parents, social standing, their genes, probably.”
Education, Policy, & Closing the Achievement Gap
- [18:52] Sailer explains the persistent gap in academic performance:
“We can improve schooling for everybody. You can’t do it in a racially biased, anti-white fashion and get anywhere. ... NAEP federal test scores have been plummeting, partly due to Covid shutdowns, partly just due to the shoddy lower standards of the racial reckoning era.”
Memorable Exchange on Stuyvesant High School
- [18:52] Malice critiques efforts to change admissions criteria at elite NYC public schools, defending the meritocratic system and the hard work of Asian immigrants.
- [21:07] Sailer notes old Jewish alumni protect the admissions system because it worked for them and “let’s keep it the way it works for the new generation.”
6. The Role of IQ Tests and Genetic Heritability
- [25:42] Basic IQ test discussions:
- [26:02] Sailer: “Let’s take a quasi IQ test—the SAT... The military ... gives a 10-part test called the ASVAB ... [but] the big thing is there’s an inner core... the AFQT. ... The military has had the Rand Institute check this over a million times ... and yeah, it pays off very much.”
- [28:33] Malice challenges: “Do you think that someone with a 100 IQ could become a medical doctor in America? ... I'm thinking 100 IQ you're maxing out like managing McDonald's...”
- [29:18] Sailer: “All right, they're perfectly average American. Probably. It would be tough. But you know, if they're, if they're super hard working ... yeah, they probably could.”
On Genetic Component to Intelligence
- [32:39] Sailer explains how recent studies using DNA and large databases show that genetic admixture aligns with differences in IQ scores.
“Turns out that racial admixture as measured genetically accounts for a majority of the variation in IQ among these people. Now is that proof that IQ causes the racial gap? No… but it is true that the hereditarian theory has twice dodged major bullets...”
—Sailer [37:59]
7. The Rise of Transgender Discourse ("World War T")
- [39:15] Malice credits Sailer as the first to predict a coming focus on transgenderism ("World War T").
- [41:14–44:10] Sailer recounts how, after gay marriage successes, advocacy and media narratives rapidly shifted to elevating transgender issues, using the example of Fallon Fox (a trans MMA fighter).
"So gay marriage is sure thing by the spring of 2013. So then what's next? Are they going to declare victory... That didn't happen with the March of Dimes... NGOs don't work like that." —Sailer [42:43]
Notable Example: Media's Mixed Reactions
- [44:43] Sailer notes the irony:
“...a white woman named Rachel Dolezal had been pretending to be black. ... Worst crime of all time. Whereas Bruce announcing ... I was actually a girl on the inside. Everybody goes, ‘Oh, yeah, of course.’”
AGP and Gender Dysphoria
- [54:18] Malice and Sailer discuss two populations of trans women: AGP (autogynephilic, typically attracted to women and driven by a sexual fetish, according to Blanchard) and those with "true" gender dysphoria (more likely to be attracted to men).
- [56:11] Sailer segues into Ted Kaczynski’s (the Unabomber) reported experience with gender dysphoria and autogynephilia, linking these psychological features with a profile sometimes seen among late-onset trans women.
8. Transgender Trends, Autism, & Social Contagion
- [58:12] Sailer:
"Male to female, late onset transgenderism seems to have something to do with autism… that’s why it seems to appeal to science fiction fans..."
- [60:11] Malice recounts cultural prototypes of the “genuine nerd," linking it retrospectively to the concept of autism.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Cancel Culture & Being Unwelcome
"I went from 2000, 2013 to 2023 without ever being allowed to make a speech in public ... canceled on the grounds the hotel had heard from their local antifa ... It was a pretty dark time in the American Republic."
—Steve Sailer, [05:52] -
On Woke Coalition Fragmenting
“Eventually the struggle to be at the top of the pyramid of privilege in the great awokening got kind of settled down ... And everybody else started feeling like, 'Hey, what's in it for me?'"
—Sailer, [07:50] -
On Social Science and Policy
“You can improve schooling for everybody. You can't do it in a racially biased, anti-white fashion...”
—Sailer, [18:52] -
On Meritocracy and American Dream
“You come over, you bust your ass, right? Your mom and dad have to do a shitty job, and then, okay, you have a government free education and now you could go and flourish. But it’s not about flourishing. It’s this bizarre obsession with racial equality, which I don’t understand who that serves.”
—Malice, [19:40] -
On the March of Dimes Analogy
“Are they going to declare victory, all these organizations, and go, okay, well, we’ve got what we demanded. We are now out of business. That didn’t happen with the March of Dimes. NGOs don’t work like that.”
—Sailer, [42:43]
Important Timestamps/Segments
- [02:47] – “A war on noticing” explained
- [05:52] – Development of social (non-gov) censorship and cancelation
- [07:13] – Reflection on optimism/pessimism for post-awokening America
- [09:32] – The limited logic of racial categories (“Asian”); coalition politics
- [15:13] – Introduction to the IQ debate and The Bell Curve
- [21:07] – Old alumni gatekeeping test-based meritocracy in NYC schools
- [26:02] – IQ/Standardized tests in education and the military
- [32:39] – Genetic findings on ancestry and IQ
- [39:15–44:10] – Transgenderism’s rise in public focus and “World War T”
- [54:18] – Blanchard’s AGP typology; social implications and distinctions
- [56:11–57:27] – Ted Kaczynski’s reported gender dysphoria
- [58:12–60:11] – The intersection of autism, nerd culture, and transgender trends
Supplementary/Wrap-up Info
- Sailer plugs his new book Noticing, available at Passage Press, and mentions that an audiobook version is forthcoming ([61:27]).
- Malice and Sailer reference Noticing’s mix of social statistics and personal interests (e.g., golf architecture, with Malice humorously accusing Sailer of being “on the spectrum” due to his obsession with detail—[23:18–25:42]).
- Sailer shares his Substack: stevesailer.net, with regular, active posting ([61:35]).
Final Memorable Exchange
Michael Malice: "What has been your favorite part of this interview?"
Steve Sailer: "Yeah, probably ... the Ted Kaczynski, you know, cake and Eat it two stories. Great." ([62:49])
Summary prepared in the spirit and tone of the original conversation, highlighting its blend of provocative inquiry, cultural critique, and sardonic wit.