Winston Marshall - Episode #366

Summary

YOUR WELCOME with Michael Malice
Episode #366 – Winston Marshall (June 4, 2025)
PodcastOne

---

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Michael Malice welcomes back Winston Marshall – musician, podcaster, and public intellectual – for a raw examination of political and cultural crises in contemporary Britain. From blasphemy laws and free speech erosion to skewed electoral systems and the balkanization of British society, the conversation pulls no punches. The duo contrasts UK and US politics, exposes the contradictions and failures of British institutions, and debates whether the nation is salvageable through civil means. The discussion is lively, contentious, and punctuated with deep dives into high-profile legal cases, shifts in public sentiment, and the rise of new political actors.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Britain Under Keir Starmer (00:50–09:48)

• Free Speech Erosion & Blasphemy Laws

  • Winston Marshall highlights a breaking news story: an Armenian refugee, Hamit Koskan, charged for burning a Quran outside the Turkish embassy, was himself attacked with a knife and by a delivery driver. The judge ruled Koskan had incited disorder because he was attacked, effectively instituting "de facto blasphemy laws" (02:14).
    • "The reaction by the man with the knife showed that this man, Hermit Koskin, was clearly being an offensive, was causing an offense." – Winston Marshall [09:48]
  • Michael likens the logic to victim-blaming in domestic abuse: "It's like, look what you made me do." [03:13]
  • Discussion of how "Islamophobia" is being legally defined to include criticism of Islam, moving toward criminalizing legitimate dissent and debate.

• Electoral Skew & Legitimacy

  • Marshall notes that Labour won 411 seats with only 1/3 of the vote and just 20% of the electorate, a distortion exacerbated by the "first past the post" system and the right-wing vote split (05:28–07:41).
    • "Labour... had a third of the vote and 2/3 of the seats, but only 20% of the electorate." – Michael Malice [06:36]
  • Starmer, compared to Kamala Harris in his progressivism and technocratic background, is "not popular," and his government is not a true reflection of majority will.

---

2. Two-Tier Justice and Public Trust (11:12–22:26)

• Selective Prosecution and Societal Angst

  • Lucy Connolly Case [17:16+]: A conservative councilor's wife, arrested and sentenced to 31 months for a tweet ("mass deportation now. Set fire to all the fucking hotels..."), despite deleting and apologizing for it. [17:26–17:51]
    • "She is now serving 31 month sentence for that tweet, which in America would absolutely not... it doesn't pass the Brandenburg test." – Winston Marshall [17:51]
  • In contrast: Afghans running a smuggling boat that resulted in the deaths of a mother and child were sentenced to just 8 months. [18:50]
  • Rapists and killers serve less time than someone prosecuted for “hate speech.”
    • Noted by Malice: "I think your point's taken. But where you and I disagree is I don't see this as salvageable." [21:49]
  • Public perceives a "two-tier justice" system—quick, harsh punishment for some, impunity or delays for others, often demarcated by identity or politics.

• Media Narratives & Transparency

  • Discussion of high-profile crimes where the ethnicity or background of perpetrators is obscured unless politically convenient, fueling tribalism and suspicion.

---

3. Is Britain Salvageable? (23:38–30:33)

• Fractured Society, Civil Service Entrenchment
  • Malice doubts British desire for true reform; Marshall analyzes the division between the “Somewheres” (rooted locals) and “Everywheres” (cosmopolitan elites, with a globalist mindset as per David Goodhart).
    • "It's the David Goodhart's theory of the everywheres and the somewheres." – Winston Marshall [24:20]
  • Starmer’s unpopularity does not equate to a genuine alternative. The Conservatives are universally discredited; Farage’s Reform Party rises, but faces systemic obstacles.
  • The “deep state” elements—civil service, the NGO sector, educational bureaucracy—are described as ideologically captured and resistant to democratic control.
    • "She [Catherine Burbilsing] said the civil service had been out to get to from the beginning and did everything they could to stop her." – Winston Marshall [29:10]

---

4. The Mechanics of Regime Capture (30:33–37:46)

• Legal & Institutional Subversion

  • The story of Philippe Sands, a British lawyer celebrated for fighting against British interests in the name of decolonization, epitomizes the inward-directed lawfare.
    • "You can spend your whole career working against the interest of the British and then you can come home and you're celebrated for it." – Winston Marshall [34:47]
  • The “charity industrial complex” and education system are similarly portrayed as sites of subversion, indoctrinating anti-British sentiment.

• Can the System Be Reformed From Within?

  • Marshall: The only hypothetical path is a total overhaul of the civil service by a competent, unified right, but even this is unlikely. Cites the work of Dominic Cummings as providing the best diagnosis. [36:00–36:30]

---

5. Why Political and Civil Solutions May Be Exhausted (37:46–47:13)

• Voter Apathy & Inertia
  • Malice: After 14 years of Conservative rule and no substantive policy delivery, voting for established parties appears pointless.
    • "I don't think there's enough appetite in the British electorate to vote in anyone." – Michael Malice [37:46]
  • Even if Farrage’s Reform UK took power, systemic change would only “mitigate the damage.”
  • Analogy to American Prohibition: Meaningful rollbacks to oppressive laws only happen after violent or mass disruptive resistance.

---

6. Balkanization, Radicalization & the Overton Window (47:13–54:50)

• Encroaching Paralysis and Radical Options

  • Reports of “85 Sharia courts across the country” and linguistic/cultural enclaves; Britain increasingly “balkanized.” [47:13]
  • Open speculation about civil unrest, “re-migration,” and civil war from both mainstream and intellectual circles; politics driven to extremes by government’s failure to respond.
    • "If you're at the point where people are going to jail for tweets, we are past the point, in my opinion, for civil solutions." – Michael Malice [39:34]

• Shifting Overton Window

  • Trump’s election as a “yank” of the Overton window, making previously unspeakable views suddenly widely expressed.
    • "I never in my life have I experienced an Overton shift like Trump's second victory..." – Winston Marshall [54:45]
  • Yet, the Overton window can shift in darker directions as well, with normalization of previously taboo “re-migration” talk, including by its more extreme ethno-nationalist advocates.

---

7. Immigration, National Identity, and the New Political Front (54:50–66:41)

• “Remigration” Policy and Its Spectrum

  • Voluntary deportation (à la Sweden) to radical ethno-nationalism; Marshall draws a firm line against DNA-based or forced mass demography shifts.
    • "The conversation has become an ethnat conversation, ethno nationalist conversation. For me, that's pretty, it gets pretty ugly." – Winston Marshall [53:04]

• American Influence and Unique UK Factors

  • US political/cultural shifts echo in UK discourse—but basic structural and cultural differences mean American solutions aren’t easily imported.
    • "Because we're not the same peoples." – Michael Malice [54:50]
  • Even so, Brexit and Farage’s rise mark protest against mass immigration and elite governance bypassing popular consent.

• Farage & Reform Party: Not Left, Not Right

  • Farage’s support—paradoxically drawing voters from Labour as much or more than Conservatives—reflects disaffection with establishment betrayal on borders, sovereignty, and culture.
    • "Farage always said, you know, I'm not really left or right. I'm taking the best from both parties... he's pulling more votes from labor than the Conservatives." – Michael Malice [63:46]
  • His suggestion to nationalize British Steel was, in context, a reaction to its Chinese Communist Party (CCP) ownership, not conventional socialism. [61:08–62:01]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Blasphemy Laws:
  "This is a de facto Islamophobic blasphemy... that for me sums it up... " – Winston Marshall [02:14]
• On Two-Tier Justice:
  "There's a huge sense of two tier justice where some people do some crimes and there's terrible punishment and quick punishment and worse. Crimes are either ignored completely, let off or kicked down the road..." – Winston Marshall [11:52]
• On Hope for Reform:
  "I don't see this as salvageable." – Michael Malice [21:49]
• On National Identity:
  "There's a real feeling with Prime Minister Starmer that he's not acting in the interest of Britain when it comes to sovereignty, territory, culture and the British people." – Winston Marshall [65:09]
• On the Overton Window:
  "One of the things that was exciting about the Trump victory... was that the Overton window was yanked overnight." – Winston Marshall [48:00]
• On Institutional Capture:
  "You can spend your whole career working against the interest of the British and then you can come home and you're celebrated for it." – Winston Marshall [34:47]
• Malice on Politician's Push to Expand Power:
  "They're going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing because you push until you get resistance. And why wouldn't you? You get more power..." – Michael Malice [27:57]

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:50] – Opening & episode framing; British political trajectory
• [02:14] – Koskan/Quran burning incident and court case
• [05:12] – State of Labour’s electoral legitimacy & vote breakdown
• [11:12] – Discussion of two-tier justice; ongoing cases (Koskan release, Lucy Connolly tweet)
• [17:24] – Lucy Connolly tweet read-aloud and legal consequences
• [23:54] – Debate: do most Brits accept or want the status quo?
• [29:41] – Institutional resistance to political change (ex. education)
• [34:47] – Philippe Sands and legal elites undermining national interests
• [37:46] – Discussion: Is peaceful, political change possible?
• [47:13] – Balkanization, Sharia courts, and radicalization
• [50:40] – Spectrum of remigration—policy and debate
• [61:08] – Farage and nationalization of British Steel (due to CCP ownership)
• [63:46] – Farage’s cross-party appeal and voter base

---

Episode Tone & Style

Malice’s trademark mix of sarcasm, confrontation, and historical depth meets Marshall’s understated but passionate concern for Britain’s trajectory. The mood oscillates between dark humor, bleak realism, and flashes of hope—punctuated with rich analogies and cultural references. The episode is dense, unfiltered, and unsparing to sacred cows across the spectrum.

---

For Further Consideration

This episode offers a bracing, at times discomforting portrait of a nation at the crossroads—where the limits of free speech, the legitimacy of democratic institutions, and the very concept of Britishness are under pressure. Malice and Marshall’s dialogue is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the real dynamics beneath Britain’s polite, frayed facade.

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a Name youe Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Michael Malice]

Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. We have with us a dear friend of mine and a welcome return guest Winston Marshall, host of the Winston Marshall show, banjo enthusiast, co founder of Dissident Dialogues. He handed Nancy Pelosi her ass at an Oxford debate, which was very pleasing to see, if you guys haven't watched it yet, about democracy versus populism. I had the joy spending time with him when he was in town, sadly, a few months ago. Now, hopefully we'll cross paths in the very near future. Winston, there's so much wanted to talk to you about. And one of the things I do want to talk to you about, first and foremost is the state of Great Britain, because American and British politics in many ways follow each other. Thatcher's election in 79 preceded Reagan in 80. Brexit preceded Trump's huge upset in 2016. And it seemed like it was very possible that the huge labor landslide last summer would have preceded Officer Harris winning the 2024 election here, which did not, in fact happen. And I think in many ways for Americans, we're looking at the UK with the sense of there but for the grace of God go I. Because you guys have gone in a much different direction and a direction which I find frankly, quite disturbing and malevolent. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on the state of Britain since Sir Keir Starmer took over number 10.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes. And just breaking news has been that a man has been charged for burning a Quran. This happened in February. And we just. The judge put his judgment through and we can get into this. But the man, whilst he was burning the Quran, was attacked by another man with a knife and kicked and spat on by a delivery driver. And the judge has ruled that the fact that those two people attacked him showed that he was acting disorderly. And so now this is a de facto Islamophobic blasphemy. Islamic, Islamic blasphemy laws in Britain. Now that, that for me sums it up. And this not even the first guy to be arrested for.

[Michael Malice]

Well, let's stop there, hold on, because we need. This is something very interesting and people don't understand. I didn't realize this. And this is the kind of thing where it's, I mean, I'm going to be a little vulgar, but what it reminds me of is the guy beating his wife with dinner isn't ready. Being like, look what you made me do.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

And it's kind of like, oh, it's, look, it's, it's your. I couldn't help it. Like you're giving me an attitude and give me a lip. This is, this is horrific and insane. Please go on.

[Winston Marshall]

So he was an Armenian refugee who. The report is that he himself was the victim of many years of torture where he's from. And he's came to Britain and he was, was outside the Turkish embassy in February. And there's a video of this. So you can, you can find it. Maybe we can cut to it. And whilst he's burning the Quran, one man runs out of the embassy with a large knife, perhaps a machete, and starts saying, I'm going to effing kill you. And, and, and the, the guy sort of backs, the guy burning the crown sort of backs up, eventually falls over and the guy says f you. And then, and then whilst when he falls over, Deliveroo driver starts kicking him. The judge has decided under a public order act that it's a very weird statement from the judge because it starts by saying there's nothing wrong with criticizing Islam, but this is clearly, clearly a religious motivated hate act. Now I think in this conversation I'll go through with you what the situation with free speeches and why it's so drastically different to what's going on in America because your audience will no doubt have heard about various people being arrested and doing lengthy prison sentences for tweets. And we can go into those details and why that's happened. But why this is interesting is because you might say that this. Well, there's several arms to the free speech crisis and one of them is the so called Islamophobia arms. So. Or, or new blasphemy laws. Now the labor government. I'd also like to get into some of the details about your intro about how labor came to power. Yes, necessarily. A true reflection of the people.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, just people don't know. They had extremely high number of seats. They have like 300, 400 out of 635. But they also had record low number of votes. It's just witness first past the post has this bizarre disproportionality in this election, I think more than ever.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, what happened was they actually only won with 20% of the electorate.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, the, the, the right Wing split was the right wing vote was split between Nigel Farage's Reform Party, who only got five seats, but got.

[Michael Malice]

I think it wasn't 15%.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, something like that. I think five or six million votes.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

Which. And they were, you know, that party. Farage had only rejoined the party a month before, so it was all very quick paced and that split the right wing vote. And had the right wing vote not been split, Starmer wouldn't have won. So that happened then. Starmer who, who. It's a bit like if Kamala had won. He's a, he's a kind of mix of cam of like identitary progress or progressivism and old socialism. And he's also a. A lawyer. So he was head of the Crown Prosecution Service, I. E. The judicial, judicial system.

[Michael Malice]

Let me just explain to people what the vote breakdown was because it's very bizarre. Right. So labor, who's, you know, in charge, had a third of the vote, but they got 400 seats out of 635, 411 seats. So they had a third of the vote and 2/3 of the seats, but

[Winston Marshall]

only 20% of the electorate. Because another phenomenon was the options were so bad on the ticket that many people just didn't bother voting.

[Michael Malice]

Sure, but, but I mean voters are the ones who decide. So if you don't, I mean in elections, and I say this is an anarchist, the Conservatives who had been in power since 2010, I think 14 years, some crazy number, they had 23, 24%, about a quarter. The Lib Dems who are like the John Oliver people, had an eighth 12% and Farage had 14%. So they were in third, but he got five seats. So the Lib Dems, this is really bizarre, had 12% of the vote, had 72 seats. Farage had 14% vote, had five seats because of how it was distributed. So the results are very skewed given how many votes each. It's kind of like the electrical college on steroids in a sense.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, exactly. So. So it's all that to say that it's not necessarily a reflection of Starmer, isn't. Isn't popular. Wasn't popular when he came to power, didn't win votes beyond a Labour base and has only gone down in popularity. So one big aspect then, one big. Your viewers will have seen Starmer in the Oval Office when JD Vance called him out and said, worried about free speech. And Starmer snapped back, is very proud of the history of free speech to everyone at home. We're like, like it Wasn't even offensive. It was spit out your coffee ridiculous statement from him. So one aspect of this is Islamophobia and, or what they call Islamophobia. I reject the word. I believe that there is absolutely something, the existence of anti Muslim hatred and anti Muslim behavior which is unacceptable. But Islamophobia as a, is used to, to that and it incorporates criticism of Islam. Now that's actually in paper. So at the moment the Labour government is discussing the appg, an all party parliamentary group definition of Islamophobia which would enshrine actual criticism of the Quran and Islam and the Prophet Muhammad into law. A Labour mp, Tahir Ali, I believe his name was literally in Parliament, stood up and asked the Prime Minister in a full House whether or not there would be blasphemy laws introduced. Although he said to protect all the Islamic religions. I will say as a Christian, my faith doesn't need such protections.

[Michael Malice]

I think it kind of does. Huh? I think it does. I think you guys are under attack. I'm sorry, like it's, it's not, you don't need the protections. But it's, you know, it's certainly not, you're not, the Anglicans aren't being given and the Catholics the protections that Islam

[Winston Marshall]

is in the UK Sorry, what I mean to say is I, I criticize away. I don't think there needs to be laws to protect. I, I, I'll add another thing actually Britain actually had blasphemy laws. 8 so, and this is what I don't want to get too arcane too quickly. So we'll come back, maybe we'll come back to the detail of the history of free speech in Britain because I think that's important and that and why we diverge from America. So the, the labor are currently discussing whether or not to pass through this Islamic law. Meanwhile, this man who I describe, Hamit Koskan, Armenian refugee and he has been charged. The judge literally says it's not about Islam, but it's also clearly about Islam and says that the reaction by the man, it's unbelievable. It actually gets worse. The reaction by the man with the knife showed that this man, Hermit Koskin, was clearly being an offensive, was causing an offense. And the guy with the knife who attacked him has not only not been named, but the Telegraph report his sentencing or case has been pushed to 2027.

[Michael Malice]

Wait, what? Wait, wait. Is he arrested or is he free to walk around?

[Winston Marshall]

He's out. He's out. He's free to walk around.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, let me break this down. Because sometimes people hear your accent or British accents and we think we're not understanding something and you're talking about a lift and it's actually not for shoes, but it's an elev telling me with a straight face that someone was burning a Quran. Someone attacked that person with a knife and the assailant with a large knife. And this isn't a butter knife, this isn't. He actually attacked with a knife, is roaming around the streets, identity hidden and he's only going to face any possible charges in two years.

[Winston Marshall]

Correct. So as well as the free speech thing, what happens is people see this and there's a burning sense of two tier justice in Britain. So you'll hear a lot. Now, Keir Starmer has been dubbed two tier care and you can get into details and you can compare different cases, but there's a huge sense of two tier justice where some people do some crimes and there's terrible punishment and quick punishment and worse. Crimes are either ignored completely, let off or kicked down the road or they have much, much shorter sentences. So the other big famous case right now is that of a woman called Lucy Connolly. Now I need to color this in a little bit. A month after Sir Keir Starmer's election, which was July 4th last year, there was a terrible murder in Southport where a man who was a week off before his 18th birthday called Axel Ruder Cabana, entered a very, very poor part of Britain town called Southport. He entered with a large knife a children's Taylor Swift dance party.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

He, what he did in that is just one of the most horrific crimes ever to have happened in Britain. As well as murdering three girls, he horribly stabbed up many, many other girls. It. And basically when this happened, the whole country was in shock and grief simultaneously. We couldn't contain our anger and emotion now.

[Michael Malice]

But you could, you could, you can, you did contain it.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, no. So what happened was there were some vigils, but for various reasons, a portion of the country, up and down the country reacted in riots. So then there were riots. Now part of the reason there were riots was that no one announced that the government or the police didn't make it clear what was happening. So there was no clarity about who the perpetrator was. Was this an Islamist attack? Why exactly this happened now? A week ago in a week from today ago in Liverpool, a man drove a car through the Liverpool Football Club celebration procession through downtown Liverpool. He was immediately, I mean within a couple of hours, identified as a white male aged 53. But with this case as is always the way. I. It's not a white male. They don't tell you who it is.

[Michael Malice]

You know that's Ann Coulter's law. You know that, right?

[Winston Marshall]

I don't know her law. What's her law?

[Michael Malice]

And Coulter's law is the longer the media takes to tell you the race of the assailant, the more likely it is that they're not white.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, quite. So there was a failure that to

[Michael Malice]

announce when they identified him, they pretended he was native because he was technically born in the uk. He's from. Where was his parents from?

[Winston Marshall]

They were Rwandan.

[Michael Malice]

Rwandan. But they're trying to. They tried to pretend like, how are you pretending this guy's not British?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, there were certain rumors that went around saying he was a sort of choir boy. And then before many details were given about him, then photographs of him as a much younger boy, looking very sweet and innocent, circulated by mainstream media. And all of this really just agitated everyone even further because it was a sense of just tell us the truth. Now, there's a general protocol in Europe. When there's an Islamist attack, say exactly what it is, what happened immediately, and let it be known that the authorities are dealing with it. That is the best way to deal with the anger of the righteous anger of the people. Because if they feel like that the government is actually looking after it and that there will be actual justice and that this will happen, then it way decreases the possibility of rioting and that. That's generally understood by leaders. But Starmer failed to do that. Then there was speculation online. One woman tweeted, her name is Bernie, she has a handle, Bernie something. And she tweeted, if she. If true, this is on the true that this is an. A recent asylum seeker, this would be terrible. She. But starting if true, the police went and arrested her. So she didn't even say he was an asylum seeker, which would have been false. She said, if it's true that he's asylum seeker. Because there was rumors, the police came and saw it. So anyway, so that's one example. But the famous example was Lucy Connolly. Lucy Connolly is the wife of a conservative counselor. She has a young child.

[Michael Malice]

She.

[Winston Marshall]

She tweeted a very. I mean it's a horrible tweet, but she said in her rage, I could probably dig it out and read it if you want.

[Michael Malice]

Sure. Please do.

[Winston Marshall]

Here we go. She tweeted, mass deportation now. Set fire to all the fucking hotels. Full of the bastards for all I care. While you're at it, take the treacherous government and politicians with them. I feel physically sick knowing what these families will now have to endure. If that makes me racist, so be it. So that was her tweet, which she deleted and apologized for within a few hours.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

Nevertheless, she was arrested, she was charged, and she is now serving 31 month sentence for that tweet, which in America would absolutely not. It doesn't pass the Brandenburg test. And Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Michael Malice]

I think you're wrong that she would have gotten away with it necessarily in America because all it takes is one D A who's looking to make their name. I don't know what the jurisdiction would be if it. Because it's Twitter. So I don't know if you're charged locally or federally, but if someone is saying burn down hotels with refugees, I don't think it's impossible because you don't need. You can arrest someone without actually having anything happen, just as a threat. You know what I mean? So that, to let them know that you're. We're watching you. So I'm not at all positive. Okay, well that's my muster here.

[Winston Marshall]

That might be the case. But I, and again, I don't like that. I do not like the tweet. Like it's not nice. And so I have no pleasure in defending her.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, of course.

[Winston Marshall]

She said important that she, she said. What did she say for all I care? So the language of it is like, it's clearly just her getting, getting out her grief and her anger which the entire nation felt. And so, so anyway, this is, she's become sort of a poster girl for this. She had recently had her, her repeal denied. So she remains there and then it comes to a sense of two tier justice. So just for comparison, she's doing 31 months. There are two news from yesterday. Two Afghan men who were in charge of the illegal boat carrying across the channel which takes illegally takes people from northern France to the Channel to across the channel to Britain. People smuggling. They were found to two mother and child were died on that under their program, for lack of a better word. And they were each sentenced to eight months. That was yesterday. Got an eight months. They each got an eight month sentence. So she's doing 31 months for this tweet which she apologized for and deleted and which there is no evidence that it actually directly led to any violence, let alone deaths. These two who are responsible for two deaths who are responsible for the illegal activity of bringing people across, you know what they're doing is an affront to our borders and our sovereignty. They're getting eight months each. So you just get all of this compounds. You see, people see this, they're not stupid and it gives them a terrible sense that the whole system is rigged against us. So, I mean, I can list, but they're not wrong. They're not wrong. And it's also the case that Lucy Connolly has got a longer sentence than some of the rape gang perpetrators. I can also, I mean, so some of the other people, for example, who have got different sentences. The judge who judged Lucy Connolly should have a 31 month sentence. The same judge had previously sentenced a man called Antonio Boparan, aged 19 to 18 months, for killing a girl in a car accident when he was driving 70 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour zone and he only ended up serving six months. So here's a man breaking the law, killing someone.

[Michael Malice]

I think your point's taken. But where you and I disagree is I don't see this as salvageable.

[Winston Marshall]

You mean the country.

[Michael Malice]

No, the system. The country's. Wait, wait, don't take that back. You're never going to hear me saying the British people are done because you guys have suffered through a lot more than we have in the 20th century. And this is something I wrote about in the White pal, something I'm keenly aware, aware of. And the strength and resolve the British people is of great historic import and relevance.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name, your price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[VRBO Announcer]

You know what they say. Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home. Book early and save over $120 with VRBO because early gets you closer to the action. Whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks. Well, whatever you want it to. So you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with Verbo's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings $141. Select homes only.

[Michael Malice]

Let's get back to the show. I had a discussion with Francis from Trigonometry about this. It is my informed opinion, and I would love to hear your thoughts that the British. More of the British people want this cage than you are giving them credit for.

[Winston Marshall]

More of the British people want the system as it is today, you mean?

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

I think that you're correct that there's a large part of the country that don't think that there is such. There is such thing as two justice.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

There's a large part of the country who think Lucy Connolly should be doing a length.

[Michael Malice]

And I don't just mean people who are Muslim or Muslim immigrants. I mean. Oh, no.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. There's progressive types.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

Very much coming from the political left who. Although even in that. In that sense it's. It's not necessarily clear because it might even be a more economic class or worldview thing. So the old left people who traditionally would have been like the British equivalent of Bernie Bros. But you know, old working class types who would have always voted left, but are culturally very British and patriotic. And there might be what. This is a better way of understanding the divide. It's the David Goodhart's theory of the everywheres and the somewheres. And these people are the somewheres. And they might traditionally have been left wing voters, but they are very rooted in their community. They've been there for as long as they know their families have been there since the Industrial Revolution. And they're very patriotic types. They're very much tied to the land. And then you have the iniwares who are not only mobile and moving and sort of globe trotters or. Or whatever, but they also have a globalist mindset.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

And they have a sense of. Tied in with a postmodernist oppressor. Oppressed. And so for them, even the poor white are oppressors on some.

[Michael Malice]

I got. I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit because I do know my British history. Clement Attlee, who was, I think the first Labor PM who took over from your namesake. I believe you're named after Churchill. Right.

[Winston Marshall]

He's also followed by. So.

[Michael Malice]

No, no. But you named after Winston Churchill. Correct.

[Winston Marshall]

Pardon?

[Michael Malice]

You named after Winston Church are Correct.

[Winston Marshall]

I thought I was. My mom. Mom said apparently she disliked the name, but that's.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, okay. Sorry. But he took. So he. In the wake of World War II, this is a great, great story. Winston Churchill, you know, for a window. It was Britain versus Hitler alone. And it was a very scary time. You know, World War II was discussed in triumphalist terms in the U.S. but we didn't have our capital city, which bombed on a regular basis by the Nazis. The Blitz. It was a very scary period for Britain and the Allies win. Winston Churchill goes out in the balcony and tells the huge crowd below. You can see it on YouTube. This is your victory. And the people scream to him, no, this is yours. It's this amazing moment. And then they go to the polls and vote them out. And they vote in Clement Attlee. And Clement Attlee said, this is 1946. I think he came in 45. He said, I'm a citizen of the world. This has been there for 80 years. This kind of. In the wake of World War II, we have to hate nationalism and we all have to be in each other's business. It's been a thing for a minute.

[Winston Marshall]

I mean, I don't want to get too into the weeds on this, but Churchill himself, in 1941, under Press, it was President Roosevelt then, right?

[Michael Malice]

Correct.

[Winston Marshall]

Roosevelt forced him to sign the Atlantic Charter, which began the decolonization program.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

So even under Churchill, to some extent, that. I mean, that's one part of the whole package of this worldview, I think. Yes, of course, empire and colonialism are inherently bad. There's nothing good from them.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

That can be taken.

[Michael Malice]

So, yeah, all oppression, there's no upside.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, so. So your point is that you think that the whole. The system is in such a way that you don't think it's salvageable. Is that. Is that the. The point you're making?

[Michael Malice]

Correct. Well, because let me. You know why? Here's why. Because the Tories have been. This thing with the rape gang happened under the Tories. This judge didn't just materialize under Keir Starmer. This has been going on for a very long time. The British, the people in power there are a lot of them are very smart and a lot of them very observant and they see what they can get away with and they're going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing because you push until you get resistance. And why wouldn't you? You get more power, you get more control, so on and so forth. This is what any government or any politician pretty much wants. And they're seeing if you're at the point where, you know, girls are getting murdered in their den studio, and people sure are a bit upset, but not upset enough that they can't handle the upsetness. At a certain point, it's just like, we've won.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes. So I think we.

[Michael Malice]

The Bad guys. I want to be clear. That's. That's what I mean by we. Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

So where you're correct and perhaps I can color it in, is that as well as the sort of political. The politicians themselves. You then have the civil service. And many politicians will complain, including Prime Minister Liz Truss, who was prime minister two years ago for about 20 minutes. She didn't last long, but she sort of explained that even if she wanted to try and get anything done, the civil service are completely rigged against her. This morning, actually, coincidentally, I was visiting the school of Catherine Burbilsing, who is a very outspoken head teacher and started a free school in an impoverished part of London. And she said the civil service had been out to get to from the beginning and did everything they could to stop her because she's been affiliated with Conservative Party and.

[Michael Malice]

Hold on, let me give more background for this. This is exactly what Trump saw during his first term. He was naive and I don't blame him thinking that, okay, once I'm the president, you know, these people are nonpartisan and the bureaucrats and they're going to go where the president wants. And he didn't realize the level of just brazen defiance and the level of the defiance would be celebrated by the corporate press. A prime example is, you know, someone's bragging about how many troops we had in Syria. Defiance of the commander in chief of the media were just bravo, bravo. But Winston, this has been a thing for again, Thatcher complained about this constantly even before she was the prime minister in 1979. So this. Well, in America, Barry Goldwater. Hold on, just finish. Was complaining about this in the 70s. So this is nothing new. And there's, you know, for. Elon Musk has not done a good job or been able. Excuse me. Has not been in a position to do a good job to do anything about this.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes. And so the reason I'm coloring this in more is to try and if we can identify what it is we're dealing with and see whether or not it's possible to deal with it. So as well as the politicians and the civil service, then you have a whole, the sort of lawfare arm and everything from the Supreme Court, which is a new. We didn't have Supreme Court until Tony Blair and the cps. And there's a famous. I'll give you another. Just a great personification of the British lawfare working against Britain is a man called Philippe Sands. Now, you might remember him because he wrote was actually a brilliant book called East west street documenting his family's dealings, I think in Vienna, if I remember correctly from the war. I think he's the progeny of Holocaust survivors. But he became a lawyer as well as an author and represented the Chagos Islands in the international courts against Britain. And this has happened also last week. This is also just to perfectly illustrates the ideology of our Prime Minister. So the Chagos Islands is relevant to America because that is where the military naval base of Diego Garcia is, which is the refueling station. It's where all of the Gulf wars were launched from. Is very important military base for the Americans. In 1965 under it was a couple hundred years ago, it was French. The British took it over tiny little archipelago in the middle of the Indian Ocean. In 1965 under a labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, they moved the 1500 or so Chagossians 202,000 miles across the ocean to Mauritius and gave Mauritius independence. But the Chegasides were turned into the British Indian Ocean territory and remained a military base. And he's dubbed it the Last Colony. The this guy, Philip Sands, Philippe Sands has spent the last 20 years trying to get this out of the hands of the British and back to the Chagossians. Now I've actually spoken to Chagossians. Yes, there was an injustice done when they were forcibly removed, but they want to be British. Some of them are served for the British. They are British in the sense that they even have a Union flag in the top corner of their flag. They are patriotically part of the British Commonwealth in that sense. This guy who says he's British, not only did he fight against British to try and have this land taken away from Britain, he's now given it to Maius. And we're paying reparation. We've paid many reparations to the Josians, but we're now paying to rent it off them even though it was ours. But he was caught on camera saying, well, Britain, it's, it's one of the great things about Britain is you can spend your whole career working against the interest of the British and then you can come home and you're celebrated for it. So this guy perfectly personifies the legal system and the individuals who have captured the sort of judicial world and who are working against British interests. Keir Starmer this It's perfectly decolonization ideology that's at play. Absolutely. And Philip Sands in his book called the Last Colony is absolutely explicit about it being a decolonization project. So that that illustrates the. The legal aspect. So then there's other. There's a Sort of NGO and Quango industrial complex. So there's other, other thing, there's a charity industrial complex and, and there's other, all of these institutions, I mean the institutions themselves. I said I was at a school this morning, the head mistress was yelling at me because she's like no one, everyone's at the best, they're focusing on the universities. Oh, the Marxists have taken over the universities. She's like what about the bloody schools? They've taken over all the schools. All your children are being indoctrinated in this anti British ideology. She's ridiculed because she has all the students of whom by the way, I think the majority are Muslim and very, very few white kids in there. She has all of them singing the national anthem before the union flag every morning. She actually has created unity amongst her multicultural, she's found a meta culture which is Britishness to unite the multicultural of his students. But she is ridiculed. She's saying you're worried about the universities, what about the schools? And if this is how the schools, if she's the only school like this, what are we going to expect in the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years? Like this is how we're indoctrinating our children. So I, I, I, the future is from that without a revolution of the education system, the future looks pretty bleak as well. So I say all this to paint to support your argument that we're in a pretty bad place. Then the question would be like what is possible about changing it and, and a great example like Musk wasn't able to change it in the way he hoped and it seems like there's still factions at play fighting against the, the mandate given to Trump in, in Britain you'd have to come in with a plan to just wipe a, wipe a lot of the civil service out. Anyone who goes against you need to give more power to the politicians who have been given the mandate from the people, take it away from the civil service and then so that they'd have to hypothetically they can do that if, if you vote the right political party and who are competent and that's another question but if you could vote the right party and who are competent, they could hypothetically do a big clear out. But there needs to be analysis now. The best people working on or speaking out on this is Dominic Cummings. Dominic Cummings was Boris Johnson's kind of right hand man but he massive fallout with Johnson hates him now. Very outspoken about all his problems. But this guy has been explaining the problem of the Civil Service in tremendous detail for some time. So there are some people who understand the scope of the problem. Whether all of these people can come together, that's another problem, is the right is so fractured and there's four years until the next election. So there is some time for them to pull, pull together. But whether they can actually pull together, there is some talent, not a lot of talent. There's some talent who might be able to find that short path through to the other side before it becomes, I mean, I guess it's a sort of United nations airport. Otherwise,

[Michael Malice]

I completely disagree. I don't think there's a possibility of we're going to vote in the right people and fix this. I don't think there's enough appetite in the British electorate to vote in anyone. Liz Truss, you know, she was PM for, I think a month. She had her. Her reform. Her bill to reform the budget was tepid. It was not. It was portrayed as, you know, the most radical thing since Guy Fawkes, and she was driven out of office. So we did see reform for people don't know. Britain recently had local elections and for the first time, I think ever, the Conservatives, who have the most seats, came in fourth and labor came in third. It was Nigel Farage's victory completely. His Reform Party came in first. Second place was the Lib Dems, then Labor, then the Conservatives. I don't see any reason as an outsider why anyone would vote conserve at this point, after whatever, 11, 14 years, however long it was. Where. What is their. What. What have. What have. What have the Conservatives improved? You had the mandate, you had four PMs, you have nothing, literally nothing to show for it except shitlib policies from start to finish. But I don't. Even if you had Farage right now with 400 seats in parliament, I think it's only going to mitigate the damage. And I think if you're. I have to choose my words very carefully and I know you're not going to agree and that's fine, but I, and it's easy for me to say this on this side, the pond, but if you're at the point where people are going to jail for tweets, we are past the point, in my opinion, for civil solutions.

[Winston Marshall]

And you might be inclined to, as a, as an anarchist, come to that conclusion. Now, I share. I mean, I could speak at length about the deep contempt I have for the Conservative Party. They turbocharged a lot of this stuff. I think actually a lot of it started with labor under Blair and Brown, but it's surely Turbo. The immigration crisis, absolute turbocharged, particularly under Boris Johnson as Boris Wave. The grooming gang stuff started a long time before the Tories, but very much they did diddly all about it. But then, so then the question is about reform and Farage. Now Farage is I think unquestionably the greatest campaigner and political actor in Britain and perhaps, perhaps in the last hundred years, perhaps ever. I, I, I, I'd need to see a better example. Okay, but she's right there.

[Michael Malice]

Go ahead.

[Winston Marshall]

Can, can he govern now? There's, there's hope there. Another problem is that can they, can they get the talent surrounding him? It's not enough just to have one talented.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

You actually have to have a whole team, a squad, like a whole trip of real talent. Now it seems to me that those types might solely come to the.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, that's possible.

[Winston Marshall]

And one of them already has. His name is Zia Youssef, who is the chairman. He made a lot of money in a tech startup. Deeply impressive dude. And he this week launched the reform Doge. So what they're doing is they got all these councils that they won. He's going in with a DOGE program of volunteers that he rates from where, I don't where exactly he's found them and he's going to try and cut all this enormous spending from the councils. So these guys, it shows to me that they're actually, they're in a position now. They've got these, all these new councils can, we'll see now if they can do it, if they can pull this off. It's evidence that they are actually able to deliver and, and do something good. It's kind of a test, it's a good test on that. So we'll see that hopefully they can be more successful than, than Musk and, and his project. So that's to be seen. Another thing that seems to be as well as finding the rest of the talent to fill the benches is can they get, get along with Farage? And you know, I think that it's not clear that there was a mini reform civil war with one of the five mps, whose name was Rupert Lowe. Big falling out with Farage and very messy. And now he's an independent mp. It also happens at the council election that was a by election, so there's now a fifth Reform mp, another woman was voted in.

[Michael Malice]

So they won by six points. Six votes, right? Something crazy like that.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly, yeah. So I, I, I think that Yousef would be a good example of Farage finding a great talent and Keep an eye on this UK Doge thing. It won't make the news, and certainly in America, it will barely make it here in the uk, but it's a. It's a test. It's like, okay, they're serious. And I've spoken to Youssef several times, and every time I come away from chatting to him, I'm extremely impressed. He's thinking about all the right things, he recognizes all the right problems, and he's. Because he comes from a tech background, because he comes from an entrepreneurial background. He's not like the rest of these politicians who are just climbing a ladder. He's like, I've actually got to deliver on this. So his mindset is absolutely correct. And I think you'd get on with him in the same sense, because.

[Michael Malice]

I'm sorry, you're telling me that, like, a. A Boots version of Elon Musk is going to do a better job than Elon Musk?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, you put it like that. I don't think that's fair to say he's a Boots version, but he's.

[Michael Malice]

He's certainly not the. The Whatever. Jaguar version.

[Winston Marshall]

We're all Boots compared to Elon Musk. Correct. Once he. He's an unfathomable talent.

[Michael Malice]

Right. And he could.

[Winston Marshall]

I tell you what. Why do you think Musk failed? That'd be interesting. I'd love to know what you think about. Why is it that?

[Michael Malice]

Because it's systemic. Because I don't think there's the appetite in Washington, because Elon does not have the power. Elon can't just be like, all right, we're cutting. You have to go through Congress here, then Parliament, obviously in the uk, and there is no appetite when I'm running for the House or the Senate to have massive or even marginal cuts in the budget, because if there was both parties be running on it.

[Winston Marshall]

So that was the. The. It was. It failed at Congress. That's the. That was the problem.

[Michael Malice]

That's part of it. Yeah, sure. And. But it also fails at the populace. People don't. People like the idea of budget. Like, it's like this. People could sit in their House and be like, you know what? I'm spending too much. But every single thing that they buy, there's some reason they're just buying things at random. They're going to have some rationalization. So it's perfectly possible, mentally, to have two contradictory things where I'm spending too much money. Well, not this. Not this. Not this. Not this, not this. In the same way that people despise Congress, but not my congressperson. They understand me. I'm certainly not going to vote for the other party. And if you did vote for the other party, what would be the difference anyway? So I'll tell you what my answer is. And you're not going to like it. And I don't expect you to like it. I don't know if you're in a position to like it. And it's this. In the 1920s we had a huge abridgement of freedom here called Prohibition where it was illegal to buy or sell or consume alcohol of any kind. And it was a constitutional amendment. And there was a senator who said it would be easier for a hummingbird to fly to. I think it was Mars Jupiter, I remember with the Washington Monument tied to its tail than to have this overturned. And it led to a huge contempt for the law because there was this two tier system. Because in cities the cops just became corrupt. The bars would just pay them off, right? They look the other way. And in rural areas it was actually maintained. And things got more and more violent because you have bootleggers, you have the feds trying to stop the bootleggers, the bootleggers are fighting the feds. It was when you had the rise of things like Dick Tracy and all these comic strips about the good cops fighting these gangsters and the rise of Al Capone and gangster culture here in the states became a real thing. It was a horrific period in many people's in our lives. Actually dictators came later. I take that back. I think it was 36 point being at a certain point it got so violent that the cops were like, we're not doing this now. This is like the official story. But the number goes up of violence. And at a certain point the politicians were like, all right, we're just going to repeal this. And they pulled it back. So until people start literally fighting back, any organization that is oppressive is going to keep turning the screws. Why wouldn't they?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, it's also the case that as well as there being more and more riots, there is also more and more conversation about the possibility of some sort of civil war. Famously, a King's College professor called David Goetz has just done written at length about this and how it might come about. And it does seem like Britain is being increasingly balkanized. There are whole areas, enclaves where they not only have a different language, they have a different justice system. We have 85 Sharia courts across the country.

[Michael Malice]

And you're also being told this isn't real and this is just propaganda. And you're. You're talking out of your ass by the press, I'm sure.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. I. Where. What was so exciting about the Trump victory, or one of the things that was exciting about the Trump victory, from my point of view, was that the Overton window was yanked overnight.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

And it was. It was quite astonishing. I was in New York at the time, and I remember a period where you just wouldn't dream of even talking about the positive aspects of Trump policy, let alone wear a MAGA hat. And I saw at the second victory, young people wearing MAGA hats in soho in New York.

[Michael Malice]

Is that right?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

I never saw that when I lived there. Holy crap. I left into 2021. That's a very interesting information. Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

Wow.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

There's a part of that demographic where it actually became rebellious and cool.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

And so if you just think about how that happened, I think it's also possible that an Overton window can. It can slowly shake an edge and then it can be yanked a whole way. And now, right now, slow edging, there's some edge in the. The discourse. Like, there's a lot of conversation about re migration, which I'm very nervous about that conversation.

[Michael Malice]

Let's get back to the show. So if people don't know what this is, this is something that is very controversial. It's mainly discussed in Germany through the AfD. And what re migration is is to deport people who aren't, some of whom are even born in that country, back to the nations of their supposed origin. Marine Le Pen and the National Rally in France, who are the Nationalist Party, they said, whoa, guys, this is too far. But this is something that when you're not left with any good options, you start looking at. All right, you're going to call me, whatever, Nazi anyway. Let me start looking at what's on the table, because you're going to marginalize people. Know what I say? So now you and I are going to have a conversation within ourselves.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, there's a spectrum of remigration, and the darker side of the spectrum is much worse than that. So I don't think anyone listening would take any objection to deporting illegal immigrants. If you've broken the law to get somewhere deported, there's no. There's. You're not owed anything then I think most of your listeners would agree that if you've legally emigrated somewhere, but you commit a heinous crime, or perhaps any crime, certainly a crime like murdering or, you know, if you raping young, young indigenous girls, I Think there's Most people say, yeah, you know what? We're not going to put you in operation, we're going to deport you back to where you.

[Michael Malice]

And to be fair, 100% of my listeners think I should be deported, so let's just do that. No longer exists. But no, no, I, I, I ran a poll, it was unanimous. Very sad moment in my life. My mom agreed with them. I don't know understand then.

[Winston Marshall]

So then there's. The Swedish have got a remigration policy where they're not forcing anyone. In fact, Trump's copying this. They're offering payments to leave. So it's like, we'll give you. It's the equivalent of something like 25, 000 pounds, $30,000 or something per person if you, if you leave voluntarily and renounce your citizenship. There's that side. And the AfD, in their official program manifesto manifesto said they, that's what they suggest. It's like we're going to create voluntary. There's no forced expulsion of legal immigrants. But what's happening not only online, but there, there was a big protest in Birmingham in Britain for this remarriage. And there's a French philosopher called Renault Camus, who was also in the headlines about a month ago because the labor barred him from entry into Britain because of he would be a disturbance to peace. And he's written extensively about re migration, but he's saying remigration for those. Even if you've been there for five, six generations, it doesn't matter if you support Hamas or whatever it is, you've got to go. So then you're really getting into, I

[Michael Malice]

mean, hold on, let me also defend him, broadly speaking, or that kind of thing. It's a very useful negotiating technique where if I go, winston, I'm going to deport six generations of your family, and you're like, oh, you know, how about two? It's like, all right, you got me, buddy. So a lot of times I'm sure he means it, but it's also effective.

[Winston Marshall]

That's part of the deal. That would be relevant, I think, if he was actually in a position. He was a politician.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

But he's not, he's a philosopher. He's not actually offering policy. He's, he's talking from a sort of theoretical point of view. And it's, it's, he's a writer, really, and a novelist as well. I, I'm not sure that quite applies to him, although I get your point.

[Michael Malice]

Not to him. I'm just saying others who make this argument.

[Winston Marshall]

But essentially the conversation has become an ethnat conversation, ethno nationalist conversation. So. So for me, that's pretty, it gets pretty ugly. And I even heard people talking about sort of DNA testing and then you're like, whoa. Like, this is not, this is not quite right. Like this is, this is, this is concerning. So how did we come to remigration? There was a point I was making

[Michael Malice]

before, I've forgotten just saying that there's no real. That basically people are just talking to each other because, oh, yes, I was

[Winston Marshall]

talking about the shifting Overton window. So you see that shifting there. So the open window can shift in an ugly direction as well. And for me, that would be an ugly direction. But I also think it's the case that, for example, here in Britain, a lot of the left wing journalists, and this has happened as a consequence of Trump's victory, who have spent the last 10 years propagating woke identitarianism, have said they were wrong. And they might not, like, there's no contrition about it, but they're kind of saying it. Or they'll say like, we're not wrong in, like thinking it, but we're wrong that it doesn't actually end up in the results we want. You know, so. But the point is that on woke identitarianism, there's been a big shift that even the lefties are saying, yeah, I think that that battle has been some somewhat won here. So things can change. And I never in my life have I experienced an Overton shift like Trump's second victory, which has really changed my outside up my view on what is possible and how politics can affect the culture. And so I think there's hope there

[Michael Malice]

in the, in the States for Britain.

[Winston Marshall]

If it can happen there, why can't it happen here?

[Michael Malice]

Because we're not the same peoples,

[Winston Marshall]

but we are a people. So the point is, I'm talking about a phenomenon that's, that's possible to any society.

[Michael Malice]

It's not possible in any society. There's no way Trump could get elected in Japan, for example.

[Winston Marshall]

No, but I, it's not about necessarily Trump winning. What I, what I mean is that the attitudes on a specific issue can shift dramatically. I'll give you another example. Before J.D. vance said, We've got 20.

[Michael Malice]

Give me a British example. Give me a British example.

[Winston Marshall]

This is relevant to Britain.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

Before JD Vance said, 25 million people, 25 million illegals, we need to start deporting, which he said about halfway through last year, before that moment in Britain it was completely political impossibility, a taboo to even suggest deportation, even for illegal immigrants. And Farage himself said that in an interview, he was asked, would you deport illegals? He's like, that's a political impossibility. But after the Trump victory in November, that completely changed the dialogue over here, where it's like, of course we can deport illegals. Like, that's obvious that we can deport illegals. And Farage is saying, yes, of course we're going to deport illegals. So America is influencing over here, and the Overton Window is shifting over here as well. And so I do. I do think it can change.

[Michael Malice]

I agree with you that in some context, the Overton Window is changing over there, but it's in the broader context of the Starmer door closing, when people are getting arrested for tweets. So if this gets any traction, why wouldn't they start saying that deportation talk is Islamophobic? And if you start saying it, you're going to get locked up.

[Winston Marshall]

That is. It is the case that people are saying it and they're saying it's Islamophobic. I get called Islamophobic. I get. What did I get called? I got called Islamophobic just for saying that we have blasphemy laws. Given the case of this.

[Michael Malice]

I had Sargon on the show and he was talking about this, about racist. I go, is it fair to say, Carl, that you don't want 500,000 Frenchmen, you know, in Britain every month, or 5,000 German? I mean, it's just ridiculous. The idea that any country in Europe you're going to be fine with people who don't speak your language and share your culture, just come on board. Is insane. I don't want Canadians in here. I mean, they're. They could. It's very easy for them to assimilate to America other than the political attitudes, but it's just ridiculous. So I hear what you're saying about the Overton Window, but I think what is happening, and I'm sure you agree, is that the glove is coming off the iron fist and it's going to be a race in many ways over whether you can vote yourselves free or whether just going to start locking more and more doors to make sure discussion itself is impossible.

[Winston Marshall]

And historically, we've been voting and voting and voting for, again, against mass migration. Now, election after election after election, that's exactly what Brexit was about. And every time the people vote that way, they get the opposite. They get more immigration and in Germany

[Michael Malice]

this year, where the cdu, the Christian Democrats were the right center, right party, Angela Merkel's party, they campaigned a bit about this. I think literally that on election night, Mertz, I think is his name is like, yeah, we're not doing that. It was, it was like so shameless. And the Germans, like, what the, what the are you talking about? And the thing is, it would be very easy. This is the AFD's big issue. And if they're concerned and they're not entirely wrong that there's this Nazi part of the AfD, it would be very easy to steal all, all of the AFD's thunder and just say, you know what, we're going to close the borders in Germany. This is ridiculous. Why is German supposed to be the hub for everyone around the world who's having a problem back home? And they wouldn't do it.

[Winston Marshall]

It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. They can't though. It's too, it's too, the philosophy, their philosophy is too deep within them. Their guilt for post war guilt is so strong that they, they just can't bring themselves. I mean, Angela, sorry, I'm going on a tangent here, but Angela Merkel is really. So much of this is her fault. Oh yes, her elite. Not only did she let in a million Syrians, who by the way, I've not heard anything about them going back since Jelani's come back to power. Not only that, but she did the deal with the Greens to decide to, to end the nuclear program, the nuclear energy program. So she's basically in a sense the last ruler of Germany. I mean, she, she finished that country. And you're absolutely right, they could now the, the Nazi component of AfD. Having read the contract, as far as I could tell, there's nothing there that's really beyond just basic conservatism.

[Michael Malice]

No, no, that's absolutely true. I'm just talking about there's certain members

[Winston Marshall]

in the party, but there are members

[Michael Malice]

who are, and I'm not using that term in the American sense of like someone who likes Donald Trump. I'm using that term in that sense that we were the good guys in World War II kind of thing. And there's a. So this has been an issue for Alice, whatever her name is. Frankel. Yeah, the head of the party, one of the co founders quit the party because of it. Frankie, her last name. So this has been a thing going on there. It's a thing going on in Austria and again, Americans. The thing. One thing I hate about American media is that it's so America centered that everything in the rest of the world is viewed through a report Republican and Democrat lens. And it's like these things don't port to the Republican Democratic Party, especially in countries. We have six or more seats and six or more parties in Parliament. And there's never ever been a Nazi presence here in the States. But this has been a real thing, obviously in Germany and other countries. So it means something different over there than it does over here.

[Winston Marshall]

It does. I'd also color in. You know, Marina Pen you mentioned earlier, I mean, she is literally a National Socialist. So that is absolutely the, the program.

[Michael Malice]

Well, can you. One more question. Faraj, explain this to me. Faraj said he want to nationalize the steel industry, which is something to the left of Bernie Sanders. Can you please explain that to us?

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, I can. So Tharaj has been a Thatcherite his whole life. When Liz Truss put out her budget, you mentioned earlier, her economic program, and he said it was the best budget since Thatcher. So then about two months or a month ago, British Steel, which is in a terrible way, he's like, we've got to nationalize. So it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is like a socialist from a socialist idea from Thatcherite. But what you gotta understand is at the moment, British Steel is owned by the ccp. So not only is it not in the private. Wait, literally, but it's owned by a foreign state that happens to be communist.

[Michael Malice]

Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. Is it literally owned by the ccp?

[Winston Marshall]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

If not entirely, then in largely in large part. So if you look at it from, from Farage, although I haven't heard this from him, but this is why I, as someone who's vehemently against socialism, why I support this is I would much rather, yes, it was owned by the state than it was owned by a foreign communist. But the CCP are also our enemy. So an adversarial state. Not just, not just anyone. And it also, and I'd add to that that, and this is another perhaps socialist aspect of Reform UK and Farage is that there are some public utilities which have been privatized, but even as private entities, they are monopolies, essentially. And so if they are monopolies, then, you know, for me, monopoly is as much of a problem as socialism. Maybe it, maybe it's mildly more preferable, but it's. Socialism is state monopoly. So if it is in that sense of monopoly, then it's not that much of a swing to make it socialist. And this is relevant to, let's say, the water or there's conversation also about the trains. I wouldn't be surprised if Farage says to nationalize the trains, but if he does such a thing, which would be very against his Thatcherite roots, it would be tied with bringing AI to completely revamp. So it would be way cheaper to run the whole operations and far fewer people involved. So it would take. There would be kind of a completely upheaval in that. In that specific sector. So, yeah, there are lefty things. Aspects to reform UK for sure, and what people don't.

[Michael Malice]

Which is surprising to hear. But the data bears this out. Farage always said, you know, I'm not really left or right. You know, I'm taking the best from both parties. And anytime there's a third party, they always blather that. But the votes. He's pulling more votes from labor than he is for the Conservatives. Now, labor had more to pull from, but the data is there. And it's kind of shocking to me because that would not happen here if you had a Farage figure, which Trump kind of was to have him pull more from the Democrats than for the Republicans. That, I mean, it's ridiculous on his face, but that is what's happening in the uk so that's another example of how other countries are not analogous to the Republican Democrat split. Because this is something that would never happen here. And it's. But it makes sense because a lot of these labor voters.

[Winston Marshall]

Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. It did happen in America of the. Something like 12% of Bernie voters went over to Trump.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. But I'm saying is Farage is getting more from labor than he did for the Conservatives.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Well, another way of understanding why that is is because a large part of that is the borders and the failure.

[Michael Malice]

I think a large part of that were people saying f the Conservatives after so many in a binary system, if I hate A, I'm going to go with B. And he just got that group that said, all right, we hate the Conservatives now we hate Labor. All right, we're open for discussion.

[Winston Marshall]

But then there would be a question is why are they going to reform and not going to the Green Party, so. Or the Lib Dems.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

The Green Party are communist. And so you might say, well, they're actually closer to what the Red Wallers want.

[Michael Malice]

That's true.

[Winston Marshall]

I'd say Red Wallers are smart enough not to. To want communism in. In Britain, even if they want socialism. And. But part of that component is a sense that Farage understands British interests more. And there's a real feeling with Prime Minister Starmer that he doesn't, he's not acting in the interest of Britain when it comes to sovereignty, territory, culture and the British people. And this goes back to the two tier sense. So that's part of why Farage is winning red.

[Michael Malice]

It's impossible in my opinion to look at the issues facing the UK right now, including Scotland and Ireland and Northern Ireland, and say the biggest problem in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, excuse me, right now, is Islamophobia. You cannot say that with a straight face unless your priorities are completely disingenuous or contrary to the British people, including Muslim citizens of the Great Britain. It is not possibility. This is your biggest priority, folks. Head over to malice.locals.com or Winston took questions from supporting listeners. Winston, running out of time. What has been your favorite part of this interview?

[Winston Marshall]

I genuinely love you know what part of what?

[Michael Malice]

You know what, you know what?

[Winston Marshall]

I I genuinely because I was very familiar with your work before meeting you and following you when I was hiding and scared to say my opinions. And it's a great. I'm really privileged not only to say that you're my friend and that we can have these great conversations, but that you would even say that about me is I thank God for the blessing of your friendship. So thank you. Michael. It's really, it's you.

[Michael Malice]

You are mistaken.

[James Altucher]

Hey, it's James Alucher. I've been an entrepreneur, investor, best selling writer, stand of comic and whatever it is I'm interested in, I get obsessed. Yes, it's led to success, but it's also led to such heartbreaking failure. I have failed more times than I can count. I wish in my life I had had people to talk to. That's why I started the James Altucher show and bring on some of the most brilliant minds in every area of life. People like Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Mark Cuban, Danica Patrick, Gary Kasparov. And I wanted to find out exactly, exactly how they've navigated the highs, the lows and everything in between. No fluff, just raw stories and real advice. I've talked to 1500 of the most amazing people on the planet. So if you want to learn from the best and skip the same old canned interviews, we're all about helping you find your next big idea, level up your thinking and ultimately to choose yourself. So let's do this together. Subscribe now to the James out to Trishell.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Are you looking for your next case? Pluto TV has all your favorite crime dramas streaming for free.

[Winston Marshall]

We're going to need some backup.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Which means suspense is free.

[Winston Marshall]

Very cool.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Watch CSI New York. Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods Tracker, FBI and swat. All for free.

[Michael Malice]

You can't outrun this.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Someone is going to pay for all this crime. But it's not going to be you.

[Michael Malice]

Take care of business, fellas.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Watch all the cases. All for free from all your favorite devices.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

We got you.

[Pluto TV Announcer]

Feel the free Pluto TV stream. Now pay. Never.