Alexandria (Radio Edit)

Summary

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You’re Dead to Me – "Alexandria" (Radio Edit)

Date: January 9, 2026
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Professor Islam Issa (historian), Athena Koblenu (comedian)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Greg Jenner teams up with historian Professor Islam Issa and comedian Athena Koblenu to explore the enthralling history of Alexandria, one of the ancient world’s greatest cities. They trace its evolution from a fishing village to a vibrant intellectual and cultural hub, discuss its legendary library, multicultural fabric, turbulent periods, and ongoing significance today. Expect wit, relatable pop culture, and insightful analysis throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Founding and Geographic Significance (03:33–06:24)

• Location & Early History:

  • Alexandria is located on Egypt’s Mediterranean coast, at the Nile Delta (03:33).
  • Earliest settlements date back to about 2600 BC, but the city itself was founded in 331 BC by Alexander the Great (03:52).

• Alexander’s Vision:

  • Alexander chose the site for its strategic position at the crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe (04:53).
  • According to legend, he mapped out the city with grain on the sand, envisioning markets, temples, and a “shrine to the muses,” later the Library (05:25).

• Initial Development:

  • There were preexisting Egyptian canals and infrastructure, which Alexander leveraged (05:53).
  • The actual construction was managed by the architect Denocrates; Alexander himself never saw the city built (06:15–06:20).

  “He gets down on his knees, according to legend, and he puts, with grain on the sand, a map of the city as he imagines it.” — Prof. Islam Issa (05:25)

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The Rise of Alexandria: Power, Diversity, and Marvels (06:24–09:51)

• Ptolemaic Influence:

  • After Alexander’s death, Ptolemy I (his general) took his body to Alexandria. This move was pivotal for legitimizing both his own rule and the city’s importance (06:44–08:01).

• Cosmopolitan Hub:

  • Ptolemy promoted a unique Greco-Egyptian identity and invited diverse populations—including Jews, people from the Levant, even India (08:12).
  • Religious freedoms contributed to a tolerant, populous (possibly first million-strong) city (08:51).

• Landmarks:

  • Pharos Lighthouse — one of the Seven Wonders of the World — was constructed on Pharos Island, connected by a causeway (09:08–09:32).
  • The famed Library of Alexandria was established with the goal to house “every book in the world” (09:51–10:29).

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The Library of Alexandria: Knowledge and Vulnerability (09:51–14:43)

• Scope and Ambition:

  • Number of texts estimated between 500,000 and a million (10:30).
  • Scholars like Euclid (geometry), Eratosthenes (Earth’s circumference), Aristarchus (heliocentrism), and Maria the Jewess (alchemy) flourished here (10:57–11:32).

  “When Ptolemy hired Demetrius to found the library, he said to him, to find every book in the world.” — Prof. Islam Issa (10:15)

• Intellectual Vibrancy and Frauds:

  • The quest for texts led to forgeries and opportunists claiming association with famous minds (12:06–12:42).
  • Greg compares this to “AI slop on Amazon” (12:37).

• Decline and Destruction:

  • Later Ptolemies deprioritized the library; patronage turned political (12:51).
  • The library suffered partial destruction in the fire set by Julius Caesar (13:34), and further book burnings by Roman authorities (13:55–14:24).

  “Caesar did this and Caesar did that. Caesar set a fire in Alexandria.” — Greg Jenner (13:34)

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Multiculturalism, Religion, and Shifts in Power (14:43–19:22)

• Christianity’s Arrival:

  • St. Mark brought Christianity, establishing the city as a religious center (14:55).
  • Alexandria’s unique blend of Greco-Egyptian, Jewish, and Christian communities fostered an open-minded culture (15:39–16:02).

• Islamic Era and Capital Shift:

  • 7th-century Arab conquest led by Ahmad Ibn Al Aas integrated Egypt into the Caliphate (16:02).
  • The new rulers shifted the capital to Cairo for defense and because of Alexandria’s overwhelming diversity (16:47).

• Islamic Golden Age:

  • While Baghdad rose as the main Arab “knowledge capital,” scholars preserved and referenced texts from Alexandria (17:03–17:26).

• Body Heists:

  • Alexander’s body was famously taken to solidify power (06:44–08:01), and later, Venetian travelers stole St. Mark’s remains by hiding them in pork (17:41–18:34).

    “They covered it in pork and then swapped it with the body of another saint.” — Prof. Islam Issa (18:16)

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Downturn and Revival: Ottoman Rule to Modern Times (19:19–24:16)

• Ottoman and European Eras:

  • Ottoman control in 1517 saw the city’s decline (19:19). By the 18th century, the population dropped to ~15,000 (19:22).
  • Napoleon invaded in the late 1700s, both pillaging and initiating serious Egyptological study (19:44–20:42).

• Modern Transformations:

  • After fleeting British rule, the city experienced a cultural renaissance during the late 19th and early 20th centuries (21:18).
  • The “Nahda” or Arab Enlightenment fostered autonomy and creative resurgence (21:18–22:20).
  • Alexandria became a crucible for anti-monarchical and nationalist movements by the mid-20th century (23:10–23:39).

  “It works in the sense that people realize they have an autonomous identity, that their culture is capable of creating amazing things, just like English and French culture is.” — Prof. Islam Issa (22:20)

• Revolutions and Arab Nationalism:

  • Alexandria was pivotal in the 1950s Egyptian revolution, with King Farouk exiled from the city and Nasser rising to prominence (23:32–23:39).

• Legacy:

  • Today, Alexandria retains deep ties to its layered and multicultural past.

    “It’s a city that’s always fighting to be a certain place.” — Athena Koblenu (24:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Intellectual Diversity:

  “He tries to develop like a very unique identity for the city. That’s Greco, Egyptian. He also continues to invite people from all around the region.” — Prof. Islam Issa (08:12)

• On the Legendary Library:

  “The estimates are sort of from 500,000 to a million [scrolls]… So, basically the Internet.” — Prof. Islam Issa & Athena Koblenu (10:30–10:35)

• On Religion:

  “Alexandria was a kind of open-minded place. Traditionally, the Greeks of Alexandria were seen as very liberal compared to the Greeks of Athens.” — Prof. Islam Issa (15:55)

• On Modern Resonance:

  “For me, it’s people watching from the balcony, it’s cats weaving around my feet, it’s the sound of a classical Egyptian melody echoing in a moonlit cafe.” — Prof. Islam Issa (nuance window, 26:34)

• On Recurring Themes:

  “It’s sort of weird how it kind of goes around in circles as well. Like it’s kind of like multiculturalism, liberalism and then something else and then back to that.” — Athena Koblenu (24:04)

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Nuance Window: Alexandria Through Native Eyes (24:16–26:48)

[24:34] Professor Islam Issa reflects on the importance of local perspective in studying Alexandria, highlighting how being an Alexandrian gives him unique access to the city’s cultural memory and daily life. He shares personal anecdotes and explains the city’s enduring identity beyond statistics—a living tapestry of stories, people, traditions, and aromas that scholarship alone couldn’t capture.

“To capture this tapestry, scholarship alone isn’t enough… I drank tea with family elders and friendly strangers. I chatted with librarians and eccentric vagabonds.” — Prof. Islam Issa (24:34)

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Conclusion

The episode closes with praise for Alexandria’s resilience, diversity, and cyclical reinvention, both from Greg and Athena, with a heartfelt call to see history as living and inherited, not static or remote.
Professor Issa’s evocative descriptions and the panel’s humor ensure Alexandria emerges not only as an ancient wonder but as a city with deep, continuous vitality.

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Recommended Listening

• Past "You’re Dead to Me" episodes featuring Athena Koblenu (27:17)
• "Istanbul in the Ottoman Golden Age" (27:17)

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me. The Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're we are packing our travel guides and venturing back over 2000 years as we trek all the way to Egypt to trace the cultural and intellectual history of the city of Alexandria. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special guests in History Corner. He's a multi award winning author, broadcaster, curator and academic. He's a professor of literature and history at Birmingham City University and an expert in the cultural history of the Middle East. He's also the author of the award winning book, the City that Changed the World. It's a brilliant book. I highly recommend it. It's Professor Islam Issa. Welcome, Islam.

[C]

Thank you. I'm excited and a little confused why we're not doing this recording in Alexandria.

[B]

The budget. Yeah, the budget didn't quite stretch. Sorry, Athena, all the money was spent on me. That's what the problem is. Yeah. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, writer and podcaster. You may have heard her on numerous Radio 4 shows or on her podcasts, Bust or Trust, A Kid's Mystery podcast and Keeping Athena Company. She's even written a funny history book for kids. History's Most Epic Fibs. But you'll know her best from past appearances on this very podcast. It's Athena Kubbleni. Welcome back, Athena.

[D]

Thanks for having me back.

[B]

Delighted to have you back. We've had you on many times because you're very good at this. Plus you also write history books for kids.

[D]

I do, yes.

[B]

Do you know much about the history of Alexandria?

[D]

I know very much like Stevenage is named after Stephen Alexandria. Might be named after someone called Alexander.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's a good start.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Is that right?

[B]

Halfway there. Yeah.

[D]

And I know it had a library that burnt downloads.

[B]

It did, it did. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And I think, like Athena, you will have heard of the city of Alexandria. I think you will have heard of the library and the famous fire that burned it down. Alexandria pops up quite a lot in pop culture. It is in the Liz Taylor iconic movie Cleopatra. Of course. The famed Egyptian director Youssef Shaheen set many of his films in in the City, including Alexandria. Why? Clues in the name. And if gaming is more your thing, you may have roamed the streets of Ptolemaic Alexandria in Assassin's Creed Origins, but how did a small fishing village become one of the greatest intellectual hubs of the world? And how exactly do you smuggle a dead saint out of a city? Let's find out. Right, Professor Islam, let's start with the basics, please. Where is Alexandria? I know it's in Egypt, but like, you know where. What time period are we starting on and are we doing like a big old history? Why is Alexandria important? Three big questions for you to start the show.

[C]

So it's on the Mediterranean, on the Nile Delta. So that's where the Nile river spreads into the Mediterranean. So it's sort of south of Greece, but it's also in Africa and the north east of Africa. In terms of time period, how long do we have?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Radiocarbon dating of the seashells there tells us that there was a settlement as early as the 27th century BC. So we're talking like 2600 BC. It's originally a series of small fishing villages. And then Alexandria itself. The city is founded in 331 BC. It's founded by Alexander the Great, 4th century BC. It's founded and it quickly develops into the capital of Egypt, the capital of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy the first is Alexander's friend in general. And the Ptolemies go all the way to the famous Cleopatra, Cleopatra vii. It becomes a global knowledge capital and a trade capital. And it lives on today. You know, by 1950, it's still got a million people in it and today it has about 6 million people in it. So. Yeah.

[D]

Wow. I'm actually amazed at the site. That's like London's like 8 million, right?

[B]

Yeah. Alexander supposedly visualizes the city in front of him. Right. And he plans it out with seeds.

[C]

Yeah. So he's already read about it in Homer. You know, it's inspired him to go. And he arrives and he realizes that the location is great because it's at the intersection of three continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. And obviously, his main goal is world domination. So he thinks this will be a great place to build and carry on with his ventures.

[D]

It's like a place in the sun, but for, like, megalomaniacs. Isn't that a great view of places you can invade?

[C]

Yeah. Great.

[D]

I'll take it.

[C]

So he gets down on his knees, according to legend, and he puts, with grain on the sand, a map of the city as he imagines it. Yeah, it has, you know, the markets and the temples and the shrine to the muses, which will become the library. It's probably also worth mentioning, though, that when he arrives there, there's already a canal system, for example, that the ancient Egyptians had built that will make transporting the grain easier. There's access to the Nile that will make him have irrigation systems, sewage systems and so on. And then he leaves it to the most famous architect of the time, Denocrates, to build the city. After he designs the city, he leaves straight away to Siwa, further south in Egypt, because there's an oracle there where he wants to find out if he's divine. And true enough, he finds out that he is divine.

[B]

What are the chances?

[D]

Yeah, you're divine, Alex. Yeah. Now please let me live.

[C]

And actually, for that reason, he never sees a building go up in Alexandria. He never returns.

[B]

And the interesting story, actually is, you know, you mentioned the Ptolemaic dynasty, Islam, which obviously gives us Cleopatra much, much later on. But it's the first Ptolemy, a man called Ptolemy, who founds the dynasty, who kind of puts Alexandria on the map in terms of its power and status. He then uses Alexander's death to put himself on the map, too. Do you want to know how?

[D]

Oh, does he write a book? He. A single. He sings a song like. Like Handling the Wind. Is that not it?

[B]

Great. I mean, that's a lovely idea. You lived your life like a candle in the wind, never failing to conquer Egypt and India. No, he literally stole Alexander's body.

[D]

Oh, okay. And just stuck it on his wall like a big antelope. A lion.

[B]

Not quite. No, Islam, It's a heist. Right. He takes an army, he intercepts the funeral cortege, which is moving from Syria to.

[C]

It's around Babylon.

[B]

Right, okay.

[C]

And it's heading towards, sort of Macedon, you know, where Alexander is originally from. Alexander's Request apparently was to be buried in Siwa, which is the oracle, where he found out he was divine. So he claims, Ptolemy, that he's taking him, you know, to Egypt because that's where Alexander would want to go.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

But he realizes actually if I go to Alexandria, then I can really legitimize it as a capital.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And as Alexander's city. And so he takes the corpse to Alexandria and builds an amazing mausoleum there that actually became like a site of pilgrimage for Roman emperors, but is now lost.

[B]

Ptolemy puts Alexander on the map. He's taken the corpse of Alexander to legitimate himself. And what does he do for the city of Alexandria? What has the city become under Ptolemy? I.

[C]

He tries to develop like a very unique identity for the city. That's Greco, Egyptian. He also continues to invite people from all around the region. So we have people coming from like the Holy Land. There's a lot of Jews who come to Alexandria and have freedom of worship in the Jewish quarter. There's people from the Levant. There's even evidence of people from as far as India in the Ptolemaic days coming to Alexandria. So there's jobs and there's freedom of worship. The idea is that they can live in relative tolerance. He also commissions important monuments. We've mentioned Alexander's tomb. There's big temples, public gardens. It becomes a very popular city. It's thought by some to be the first city that reaches a million people.

[D]

But that sounds incredible, right? Isn't that the model of the kind of cities you like to live in now?

[B]

Yeah, it's a 15 minute city. Alexandria is now in its sort of Ptolemaic era. We get these new building projects as well as the Garden of Eleusis, we also get the Pharos Lighthouse, which is one of the seven wonders of the world.

[D]

Yes. And I know this because I used to play Civilization. Yeah, there we go.

[B]

Another classic game for our elder millennial listeners.

[D]

And that was a big landmark when you built the lighthouse.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

A little graphic. Come up with the light.

[B]

Exactly. A little. A little fanfare. Yeah. I mean, the Ferros lighthouse is one of the seven wonders of the world. So it's incredibly important in the ancient world. And it's still. I mean, archaeologists were digging and diving down there like last month, I think. Amazing, isn't it?

[C]

It is. The remains are still there. And that was on the Pharos Island. So when Alexander arrived, he connected the fishing villages with Pharos island with the causeway. And that's where the lighthouse was built. And the lighthouse's remains are there. And now there's a citadel there that's very handy.

[B]

And, of course, also at the same time, they build the famous library, the one you mentioned on the way in. Athena, how many texts do you think were held in that library?

[D]

Oh, goodness. Okay. It's gonna be silly. 10,000.

[B]

I mean, that's a lot of books, right?

[D]

Well, they had. Wouldn't they be, like, scrolls?

[B]

They would be scrolls, I think. 20,000 or you've gone bigger.

[D]

Yeah, go on, hit me.

[C]

Some we don't really know.

[B]

Sure. All right. Ruin the tension.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, let me say this. When Ptolemy hired Demetrius to found the library, he said to him, to find every book in the world. I'm quoting from a letter that's been found. The job description was every book in the world.

[B]

There's too many.

[C]

The estimates are sort of from 500,000 to a million.

[D]

So basically the Internet to over a million. You can see the Internet in here.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There are, like, letters from Ptolemy to the librarian saying, have you got all the books yet? So he's checking in.

[B]

Okay. We get incredible scholars coming to the city, don't we? I mean, maths fans will know Euclid of geometry fame. Who else is showing up and plying their intellectual trade?

[C]

Eratosthenes said that the world's not flat. Aristarchus said that the Earth goes around the sun, which was a very odd thing to say at the time. Crazy. They developed fields like alchemy. Someone called Maria the Jewess was somebody who developed alchemy. And her main aim was basically turning anything into gold and living forever.

[B]

Two good aims.

[C]

There was Heron, or Hero of Alexandria, who invented all sorts of things, like the first steam engine, also the first vending machine.

[D]

Oh, what a king.

[C]

Usually for holy water. And there was a school of medicine which allowed women in, which wasn't the case in Athens, where it was only men. Different types of poetry were invented.

[B]

And we also get Ptolemy IV. So, you know, once you've got Ptolemy 1, you get 2, 3, and 4. He built a shrine to Homer, the great poet who gave us the Odyssey. Well, he may not have existed, but, you know, the idea of him.

[D]

What? I beg your pardon.

[B]

He may not have been a real guy, but that's a different episode. Athena. But they're also scammers, Right. There were people showing up pretending to be great intellectuals or pretending to be being taught by great intellectuals.

[C]

That's right. But certainly, yeah, the library. All sorts of issues arose because, you know, getting every book in the world is not very Selective. And it's borderline obsessive. Yeah. Anyone who could write would write anything because they were guaranteed to sell it. And then even better if you could scam. No.

[D]

Policy control.

[B]

No.

[D]

Is this what you're saying?

[C]

Eventually there was, but you could then scam the librarians by pretending you heard someone famous speak and that you're writing their speeches, for example.

[B]

So it's like the kind of AI slop on Amazon where it's just like sort of dodgy knockoffs of famous books.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

So the city was flourishing intellectually. And then obviously, as is the case with all libraries, was it sort of devastated by budget cuts? Because that's what seems to be happening to modern libraries.

[C]

It's not far off. I mean, a library is a good way of understanding the priorities of government. And under later, Ptolemy. So basically, the Ptolemies were all called Ptolemy or Cleopatra. Pretty much. So by the time you get to Ptolemy VIII, Ptolemy the 9th, they'd evicted some scholars. They'd given the job of librarian to their allies, for example, to an army general rather than a scholar. And then, of course, you have the fire in the first century bc, when Julius Caesar was at war with Cleopatra's brother. And actually, he writes about the fire. Yeah, his autobiography's in, like, the third person. Caesar did this and Caesar did that. Caesar set a fire in Alexandria.

[D]

So he confessed to it.

[C]

Yeah, he does. He thinks it was a great idea, but he set some ships on fire and it kind of spread into the city. It didn't completely destroy the library, actually.

[B]

Yeah, One of the wings goes. It's kind of a partial, but there is also a book burning by the next Roman emperor, or the first Roman emperor, Octavian, who becomes Augustus, and he orders the burning of books.

[C]

That's right. And more of those occasions, actually, Caracalla, in the third century, he thinks that Alexander was assassinated by Aristotle, who was his teacher. So he burns all the Aristotle books.

[D]

So this is something that would have happened hundreds of years ago, but he's like, time to get my vengeance. Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Caracalla is in the third century, so he's what, 500 years? 600 years.

[C]

He thinks he's the new Alexander.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[C]

And then. And then, you know, Aurelian burns the royal quarter, which has the library in it. You know, we've got the rise of Christianity that had some big burning in the fifth century. We have a Roman historian called Orosius who talks about empty shelves. So we know it's still there in the 5th century, but there's a slow decline.

[B]

That's a shame. I mean you mentioned the rise of Christianity. So the city had already been multi ethnic, multicultural. You talked about Jews coming and living there beforehand. But the rise of Christianity is a really interesting and important story in the city's history. Can you tell us more about.

[C]

Yes, it's largely based on the fact that St. Mark the Evangelist brought Christianity to Africa through Alexandria. That he arrived in Alexandria and founded the church there and would end up being murdered there as well. Alexandria was a kind of open minded place. Traditionally, you know, the Greeks of Alexandria were seen as very liberal compared to the Greeks of Athens. The Jews of Alexandria, there's a quote about them that they're more interested in the theater than the synagogue were different to the Jews of Jerusalem. So it made sense for this new faith to gravitate towards Alexandria and be influenced by all these other faiths as well that were already there.

[D]

So if like, so what was they into then? Because if you've got like Jewish people into the theater, what was that? What was their thing?

[C]

Debate, I think.

[B]

Yeah, sorry. Abena theater guys. So obviously we talked about pagans, we've talked about polytheistic people, we talked about Jews and Christians. And now we need to talk about the arrival of the Arab caliphate. That's in the seventh century, is it?

[C]

Yeah. So that ends seven centuries of Roman rule. The Arabs are led by somebody called Ahmad Ibn Al Aas who is a commander who knew the Prophet Muhammad and you know, he turns Egypt into part of the caliphate. What that does for Alexandria is that about a millennium after it's founded, it's no longer the capital of Egypt. So they move the capital because Alexandria for the Arabs is too diverse. They don't know how to deal with all these different groups. And also they don't have a navy, they're desert people. So it's a hard place to defend. And so they move the capital to Cairo, to what is now old Cairo.

[B]

Oh, Cairo.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah.

[C]

The initial idea is there's still freedom of worship, there's still freedom expression. But as far as buildings are concerned, you know, we do see temples become churches and churches become mosques. And even today there are mosques that have gone through that journey.

[B]

Okay. We start to get what's called the Islamic golden age, the Abbasid dynasty bring that about in Baghdad. Does it spread out to Alexandria?

[C]

To some extent because of the texts and ideas that have come out of it. So even though Baghdad has become the kind of knowledge capital of the Arabs, they're still looking at texts that existed in Alexandria.

[B]

So Alexandria was sort of coming back to its best. We have to do. I mean, we must mention another famous heist. So we've had one heist where they stole Alexander's body, now we get another one. Venetian travelers stole the body of St. Mark out of Alexandria. How do you think they pulled this off?

[D]

Oh, how do you steal a body? Well, what you do is you go to a fancy dress shop and you'd kind of like. You'd get a costume for it and then you'd be like, don't mind my mate, he's had too much. You know. You know when people have too much to drink and they pass out and they're just dead weight. And so. And the question would be. Or they could be like the back end of a camel and you're the front end.

[B]

Like a pantomime horse.

[D]

Yeah, basically. So costume is nice. A costume patsy dress.

[B]

I quite like that. That's fun. Islam. Is that how they pulled it off, is it?

[C]

It's probably as eccentric or more eccentric, isn't it? They covered it in pork and then swapped it with the body of another saint.

[B]

So they just sort of hid it under a massive ham.

[C]

Yeah, in a basket. In a basket.

[D]

I think that makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, if we were pitching an idea and someone said, great, great idea about fancy dress, Athena. But how about pork? I'd be like, yeah, do the pork one. Yeah, I'm really humble like that. That's a better idea.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Then we get the Fatimid dynasty. But then the 14th century brings some disasters. Athena. Do you know what happens in the 1340s? Black Death. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

But it reached all the way to Alexandria.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because of the harbour, everything reached Alexandria. Good stuff and bad stuff.

[B]

Some real tough times happening in the 1300s, the 14th century. And then you get the city under new management again. This time it's the Ottoman Turks. Islam. And this is where the city does actually decline. And that's when.

[C]

So the Ottomans capture Egypt in 1517.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And that's probably the least exciting part of Alexandria's history. It does dwindle. We know the population during the later Ottoman times, so sort of 18th centuries is about 15,000.

[B]

But there is, of course, a famously big guy. Well, he's famously not big, of course, but he shows up in the late 1700s. He's a Corsican. He's a Frenchman.

[D]

Napoleon.

[B]

Napoleon. He arrives in Alexandria because he's a big fanboy of Alexander the Great. And his trip to Egypt is famously Violent. He goes around attacking armies and whatnot, but he also brings scholars, his famous savants, his artists, his archaeologists. Right.

[C]

He arrives at Pharos, you know, where Alexander was, because he wants to emulate him. He does this wonderful speech to his soldiers about how they have to respect the locals and respect the faith of the locals, as Alexander did. And then he literally blows up the synagogue, which, by the way, has recently been renovated. And very beautifully, he kills 700 locals as he enters the city. They are serious about Egyptian archaeology. Yeah, they draw lots of really nice pictures of Egypt at the time and. But they also take or help themselves to lots of stuff from Egypt as well. And I don't mean like little things, I mean things like obelisks. Yeah.

[B]

And of course, the British are there too. I mean, famously, you know, the Battle of the Nile. You've got Lord Nelson fighting against Napoleon. The British presence in Alexandria did not last that long. In 1817, they signed an agreement to leave Egypt and in comes a guy called Muhammad Ali. Not that one, not that one, not that one. That'd been amazing, but not that one. He's ruling with Ottoman support and the city becomes interesting and culturally again. In 1897, the Lumiere brothers shot a film there in the city. So it's, you know, the Egyptian cinema industry is famous. Like, they're great filmmakers, but it starts so early 1897. So we get something called the Nada, the Arab Enlightenment. Have I mispronounced that?

[C]

Nadar? Yeah.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Yeah. So, as you said, the Lumiere brothers go to Alexandria. Everyone's excited. You know, we have E.M. forster, among others, who writes a history of the city. We have the Egyptian cultural renaissance as well, because don't forget that the Europeans are there and. And, you know, we said Egyptology, European Egyptology has begun. Well, you know, there's lots of stuff being plundered, reports of, you know, tomb findings being used as decor for homes, and they use mummy cases for cooking fuel and things like that. So Egyptians want to have some autonomy. And one way of doing that is through this, what's called, this kind of Arab cultural awakening, the Nahda, which is a way of sort of creating cultural autonomy as a way of countering the European influence at the time.

[D]

Does it work?

[B]

Arguably it does, because, of course, Britain had ruled Egypt from 1882 until the revolution of 1919. And then in 1922, there is an independence granted, a partial independence granted. But certainly it's an important date, isn't it, in Egyptian history?

[C]

Absolutely, yeah. It works in the sense that people realize they have an autonomous identity, that their culture is capable of creating amazing things, just like English and French culture is. And also simply the subject matter of the things being written was calling for people to realize their independence. So, you know, to give an example, you have an operetta called Cleopatra and Anthony where Cleopatra is the hero and it's played by, you know, Alexandrian artists and actors that kind of use of Egyptian instruments, all of these things that suggest autonomy and independence.

[D]

Yeah, of course, they did Alexandra and Cleopatra the musical before, like Tina the musical before Back to the Future, they were like on it. That's very ahead of their time.

[B]

Yeah, by the mid 20th century, so the 40s, 50s, 60s. Alexandria is the home of anti monarchical revolution and radicalism as well, isn't it? It's a city of politics.

[C]

Yeah. And it's interesting because the king was often residing in Alexandria, in the palace there. And then when he's kicked out of Egypt, he's kicked out from Alexandria.

[B]

This is King Farouk, is it?

[C]

King Farouk? Exactly.

[B]

So he's replaced in 1952 by Nasser, the prime minister, who sort of becomes a president figure, doesn't he?

[C]

He does. I mean, Nasser doesn't become the first president, he's sort of the deputy to Nagib who becomes first president. But Nasser becomes the famous president from a few months later. It's a time of rising Arab nationalism.

[B]

Okay. So there is a sort of sense of the city becoming an Arab cultural center. And today Alexandria is a beautiful city and is still linked back to its history. I mean, it's an extraordinary story, Athena, isn't it?

[D]

It's sort of weird how it kind of goes around in circles as well. Like it's kind of like multiculturalism, liberalism and then something else and then back to that, and then back to that and back to that. So it's a city that's always fighting to be a certain place.

[B]

The nuance window. Time now for the nuance window. This is where Athena and I sit in the quiet section of the library for two minutes while Professor Islam tells us something we need to know about Alexandria. So take it away, Professor Isaac.

[C]

I want to say something obvious, that there's much to gain when Egypt is studied by an Egyptian, or in this case an Alexandrian, like me. Alexandrians today are the 100th generation to carry that name. Even as a child, darting across the promenade, Cleopatra embossed pocket money clinking in my pocket, I felt the city's magnitude, its history itself in the air to capture this tapestry. Scholarship alone isn't enough. I discovered and translated 9th century Islamic poetry about Alexander and 11th century letters from Alexandrian Jews. I took in folk tales and oral histories. I drank tea with family elders and friendly strangers. I chatted with librarians and eccentric vagabonds. Coffee reached Alexandria before Italy and a century before England, so cafes fittingly became central to my experience. In one, the barista wrote my name on the cup in beautiful Arabic and I almost wept, overwhelmed by its sheer normality. In another, I paused at a portrait of Alexander blowing a big pink bubble. In cafes, I heard a dozen theories about his tomb's location. It confirmed, impossible to a non native speaker or cultural outsider, that Alexander lives on his in the city's collective consciousness. Armed with linguistic and colloquial fluency, with cultural knowledge and memory, I roamed Alexandria's streets, unraveling the threads woven into its soul. With its universal appeal, Egypt continues to be explored, even claimed, by scholars whose narratives at best miss the nuances of its culture and history and at worst undermine or erase the people for whom that history isn't a mere curiosity or day job, but a defining, enduring identity. People often ask what Alexandria means to me, expecting facts and figures about an ancient city. But for me, it's people watching from the balcony, it's cats weaving around my feet, it's the sound of a classical Egyptian melody echoing in a moonlit cafe.

[B]

Thank you so much, that's beautiful.

[D]

I've done a few you're dead to me's, which is a real honour. This is probably the one that makes me want to go and book a holiday like right now. What a lovely way to contextualize history as something. It's here today and it's inherited by the people who, who are present there and the diversity of it. And I think that's a wonderful advertisement. Rather than in 1066, it's more like, come and have a coffee, we'll write your name Arabic on it. It's lovely.

[B]

Thank you so much, Athena and Listener. If you want more from Athena, check out our past episodes. On Haitian Revolution, we did Madam C.J. walker. We did Njinga, River Dongo and Matamba. If cities are your thing, have a listen to our episode on Istanbul in the Ottoman Golden Age with Sue Perkins and Professor EBRU Boyar. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we have the wonderful Professor Islam Issa from Birmingham City University. Thank you, Islam.

[C]

Thank you, Greg.

[B]

And in Comedy Corner, we have the awesome Athena Koblenu. Thank you, Athena.

[D]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we explore another historical hotspot. But for now I'm off to go and smuggle out my favourite library books, hiding them inside a ham sandwich.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

You're dead to me is a BBC studios audio production for BBC radio 4. Foreign. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years.

[D]

It is not them being gullible or stupid.

[B]

These are criminals and it's often very organized.

[D]

I'm Dr. Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liv's your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism.

[B]

I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster but now I help the police to catch people like me and that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging.

[D]

Listen now to scam secrets on BBC Sounds.