Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Catherine de’ Medici: The Real Serpent Queen of France"

Introduction

In this engaging episode of BBC Radio 4’s You’re Dead to Me, host Greg Jenner delves into the tumultuous life of Catherine de’ Medici, the often-misunderstood Queen of France. Joined by the brilliant historian Dr. Estelle Perronc and the comedian Sandy Toksvig, the episode blends historical insights with humor to paint a comprehensive picture of Catherine's influence and legacy.

Early Life and Background

Catherine de’ Medici's Origins

Catherine de’ Medici was born into the illustrious Medici family of Florence, renowned for their banking prowess and patronage of the arts. Dr. Estelle Perronc explains, “The Medici family were bankers who rose to immense wealth and power, becoming Dukes of Florence and Grand Dukes of Tuscany” (04:08). This wealth enabled them to wield significant influence, albeit amidst rivalries and political maneuvering.

Catherine's Tragic Childhood

Catherine's early life was marked by tragedy. Orphaned at just three weeks old after losing both parents—her mother to childbirth complications and her father to battle wounds—she was placed under the guardianship of her grandmother, who also died shortly after. This relentless loss left Catherine profoundly lonely and vulnerable, making her a political pawn from a tender age.

Marriage and Family

Arranged Marriage to Henri of France

At the age of 14, Catherine was married off to Prince Henri of France, an alliance orchestrated by her great-uncle, Pope Clement VII. This union was purely political, intended to strengthen French claims in the Italian Wars. Despite both being young, the marriage set the stage for Catherine's future influence. Sandy humorously remarks on the young couple’s wedding festivities, imagining a medieval orgy: “They dipped some boobs in wine and drank it—an orgy” (54:36).

Children and Dynastic Duties

Catherine bore ten children, seven of whom survived to adulthood. These children married into various European royal families, earning Catherine the title “the grandmother of Europe.” Notable children include:

• Margaret: Married to Henry of Navarre (later Henry IV of France).
• Elizabeth: Married to Philip II of Spain.
• Charles IX and Henry III: Both kings of France who faced their own tumultuous reigns.

Political Influence and the Wars of Religion

Catherine's Role as Queen Mother

After the death of her husband Henri in 1559, Catherine became the Queen Mother to King Charles IX. Despite her official title, she often wielded more power than the young king, navigating the complex and volatile landscape of French politics. Dr. Perronc notes, “Catherine asked to be called Queen Mother of France, a title that signified her growing influence” (32:16).

The French Wars of Religion

One of the most significant periods of Catherine's reign was the French Wars of Religion (1562-1598), a series of conflicts between Catholics and Huguenots (Protestants). The massacre at Vassy in 1562, where thousands of Huguenots were killed by the Guise family—a powerful Catholic faction—marked the beginning of these brutal wars. Catherine's attempts to mediate were often overshadowed by her adversaries' actions.

Notable Events and Controversies

St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (1572)

One of the darkest chapters during Catherine’s influence was the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, where thousands of Huguenots were slaughtered in Paris and beyond. Although Catherine is frequently blamed for orchestrating the massacre, Dr. Perronc clarifies, “Catherine actually tried to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Walsingham” (40:02). The massacre was more a result of factional revenge by the Guise family than Catherine’s direct orders.

The Flying Squadron Myth

A popular legend suggests that Catherine employed a "flying squadron" of noblewomen to seduce and manipulate male courtiers for her political gain. However, historians have debunked this myth, pointing out that while Catherine did use strategic marriages and alliances, the notion of a dedicated squadron is exaggerated. Dr. Perronc states, “Historians have debunked the myth of the flying squadron” (38:26).

Legacy and Reassessment

Reevaluation of Catherine’s Reputation

Historically portrayed as a ruthless and manipulative figure, recent scholarship, including insights from Dr. Perronc, has sought to humanize Catherine, highlighting her deep love for her children and her efforts to stabilize France amidst chaos. “Catherine is not the dark queen depicted in many sources. She truly loved her children and tried her best for France and her family” (53:31).

End of the Valois Dynasty

Catherine's death in 1589 marked the end of the Valois dynasty, leading to the rise of the Bourbon family with Henry IV’s ascension to the throne. Despite her efforts, the incessant wars of religion left France in turmoil, a testament to the complexities of her rule and the limitations of her influence.

Conclusion

Catherine de’ Medici: A Complex Figure

The episode concludes by acknowledging Catherine’s multifaceted legacy. While she was undeniably a powerful and influential queen, her portrayal as a master manipulator is increasingly questioned by historians. Catherine’s life was a blend of political acumen, personal tragedy, and relentless striving for stability in a fractured France.

Final Reflections

Sandy and Greg wrap up the episode with a lighthearted quiz, celebrating the knowledge gleaned from their deep dive into Catherine’s life. The episode ends on a reflective note, emphasizing the importance of reevaluating historical figures beyond their traditional portrayals.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Estelle Perronc on Catherine’s Patronage: “Catherine Medici is actually one of the greatest patrons of the art of the second half of the 16th century” (04:41).
• Sandy on Catherine's Legacy: “Catherine is not the dark queen depicted in many sources” (53:31).
• Greg Jenner's Humor: “I've got a teenage boy who was very into politics” referring to King Charles IX (32:13).

Key Takeaways

• Catherine de’ Medici’s early life was marred by tragedy, shaping her into a formidable political figure.
• Her marriage to Henri of France was a strategic alliance that produced ten children, establishing her as a central matriarch in European politics.
• Catherine played a significant role during the French Wars of Religion, though her legacy is a mix of attempted mediation and controversial actions.
• Modern historians are reexamining Catherine’s role, shifting away from the one-dimensional villain image to a more nuanced understanding of her contributions and struggles.

Further Listening

For those intrigued by Catherine de’ Medici’s story, You’re Dead to Me offers additional episodes on fascinating historical figures and events, including Justinian and Theodora, the ancient Olympics, and royal legends like Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine.

References

• You’re Dead to Me, Episode: Catherine de’ Medici: The Real Serpent Queen of France, Release Date: February 21, 2025
• Guests: Dr. Estelle Perronc (Historian), Sandy Toksvig (Comedian)

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Lowe's knows that free is just better. That's why Milo's Rewards is free. To join as a member, you earn points towards Milo's money on eligible purchases, get exclusive free gifts and earn free shipping at SilverKey status, all on top of weekly member only deals.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Don't wait.

[Greg Jenner]

Join Milo's Rewards for free today and start saving more Lowe's. We help you save loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts you're about.

[Sandy Toksvig]

To listen to youo're Dead to Me episodes will be released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you are in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French Queen Catherine de Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She's Associate professor in Early Modern History at North Eastern University, London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially Queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of the Incredible Blood Fire and the Story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici. It's Dr. Estelle Perronc. Welcome Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Catherine.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's comedy roadshow, have Got News for your. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with adhd, Scatterbrain, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparral Sandy.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment I thought, I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I'm an expert and read my book Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

[Sandy Toksvig]

You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person.

[Greg Jenner]

We all went through that Genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

That's brilliant.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, well, we've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But I don't think I can, you know, do Chappie. I love your work, but I don't think I can be as funny as you. I'm sorry.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay. All right.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, neither can I.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Do you know the name Catherine de Medici? She's quite famous from history, but I.

[Greg Jenner]

Thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de Medici and not de Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was ital. And there we go.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She is Italian.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, she is Italian.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in the Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother in law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Rain, all about Mary Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilization 6. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out? And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Chappie? Actually, did the name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals, they didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So the Medici family, or the Medici family were bankers. And they started. They rose to power and prominence.

[Greg Jenner]

Good people, morally sound.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

They became, you know, very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries. And Carton de Medici is going to born into that very important family, but also very scheming family. Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And Florence is their home.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Florence is their home. And they're going to become Dukes of Florence and Grand Duke of Tuscany. But they also love the arts. They become very famous patron of the art. And to say that. I would like to say that Catherine Medici is actually one of the Greatest patrons of the art of the second half of the 16th century.

[Greg Jenner]

Which, like the Kardashians.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm so sorry, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, shabby. You heard me.

[Greg Jenner]

Want to lie down? I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I think I do.

[Greg Jenner]

No, not like smelling salts. I'm so sorry.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No, not the Kardashians.

[Greg Jenner]

I shall never bring them into a conversation about Catherine again.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So Catherine was born Caterina.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So your question shappy about Caterina? Caterina de Medici. Her father is Lorenzo II de Medici and he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, the Pope. But he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke there, you know, like.

[Greg Jenner]

So sorry. So his uncle, the Pope, is giving.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Him a title that he wasn't his to give.

[Greg Jenner]

It's like stealing a dress from your neighbor and giving it to your wife.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And then saying, you now need to move into that house.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you need to go and fight the neighbor.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But you have to put into context of Italian wars. So when I say, like, let's be fair to him and the Pope, it was contested.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Lorenzo ii, Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble who is royal. Is that her?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, she's royal. Madeleine de la Tour Duvern. So she's from.

[Greg Jenner]

Say that again slowly.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Madeleine de la Tour d'auverng. To be fair. I know. I love her name.

[Greg Jenner]

Such a beautiful language.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know. It's like I've said, je t'aime to.

[Greg Jenner]

You right now, Greg, you must learn it.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I'm doing my best, all right, Because I'm my mum.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But Madeleine is from French blood, so she's a very important ancient war women. It was all arranged, obviously, by the French, especially Francis I of France, who, because I just discussed about the Italian wars. French thought they had some claims on Italian territories and having an alliance between the Medici, who were not, as you said, royal. Very important to a very raw French person. They really thought that here they would lock the Pope on their side, they would lock territories, Italian territories, on their side, and obviously their heir was going to be Caterina. Catherine. To unite, in many ways, France and Italy.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So it was a very strong political alliance.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So they didn't just meet in a bar, fall in love and have this lovely. No, no, that's a shame.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No, it's the Pope who sets them up.

[Greg Jenner]

It's quite unusual for the time.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So you've got your classic Nepo baby thing. You know, Lorenzo's uncle is the Pope. That's always nice. Very handy. And then you've got the comb of two illustrious houses, the Medici French royal family. So we can imagine that her childhood, Caterina's childhood would be amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Caterina, she lost both her parents. So her mother died. Honestly, we say fever, it's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbino, died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old, she was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth. Yeah, but what's tragic, I think, for Caterina is the fact that then she's going to be taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after.

[Greg Jenner]

They're not a very robust family.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No, no. I mean, it's tragic. It's tragic. And then on the third one, it starts to become almost funny, because the third time around, you're how many people? I mean, seriously, to be like more.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

People are going to.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Right.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Because then she's going to be with her aunt and again, she's going to die as well.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And the Pope, her great uncle, isn't it?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

The great uncle is going to make sure that she is protected and well educated.

[Greg Jenner]

What's his name?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Pope Clement vii.

[Greg Jenner]

Uncle Pope Uncle Clemen.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's a life of turmoil and of great heartbreaks. What I want people to understand, just for a minute, how lonely Katharina was.

[Greg Jenner]

Because she's got no brothers and sisters.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No. And it's very important to remember, because then when we're gonna go through her life and we're gonna discuss her later, I want you to remember that she lost everyone she loved or could have loved, and she was massively a political pawn.

[Greg Jenner]

So when you see a story like Katharine's put on Netflix and portrayed as this mean, scheming person, but you as a historian, no different.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

What do I do?

[Greg Jenner]

What do you want to say to Netflix?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I would like to say, please hire me very affordable rates as a historical consultant.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So how do you think the Pope, her uncle, Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman, she's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, you know what? I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence and self defense classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Am I Right.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So to marry her off.

[Greg Jenner]

Some bozo's found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, don't. Don't wish you were wrong. Because I don't think it's. I don't think it's a sad story. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm the only one feeling that.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Normally on this show I have to honk my problematic marriage. Klaxon. This time around, I'm gonna honk my kind of sad marriage. Klaxon. But sort of like, they're both so young.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, but like. Okay, okay, let's tell the age. They're 14. 13. 14. Right. But they're both the same age. At least she's not, you know, given to an old man who's disgusting and who. You know, like. At least. And she fell.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She does.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And that's a tragedy of her life. But we can discuss that.

[Greg Jenner]

Little Estelle at 14, I was in love with the drawing of Morton Harkett.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Okay, Chappie, honey, she's in love with a prince.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She's gonna have a wedding in Marseilles, in Notre Dame de la Garde. This little girl who lost everyone.

[Sandy Toksvig]

His name is Henri.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Right, Henri. Yeah, yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Or Henry. For you British people. Yes, we love you, but Francis I. Is. Her father in law is gonna become a father figure. She enters a family. Honestly, I don't. I think she won that one. It could have been way worse for her.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, all right. I'm not gonna honk my problematic marriage collection. I'm gonna revoke the honking. But I am gonna say 14 is very young. Just psychologically and developmentally.

[Greg Jenner]

But at a time I understand between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married. So.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, all right.

[Greg Jenner]

So only a few centuries anyway.

[Sandy Toksvig]

But at this stage, I think we can perhaps update the name because she was Caterina de Medici, and then she. But now she's Catherine.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, Catherine. Okay, okay.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. Okay, so planning the wedding. Chaffee. Yeah. What big entertainments would you lay on if you were the wedding planner for this big grand festivity? Now the king of France is laying on a wedding. Francois, he's laying on a wedding for Henri. And for. For Katharine. What's going to be at that party?

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so they're 14. So there'll be a huge pick and mix for the guests.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I would love that.

[Greg Jenner]

Maybe a merry go round.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Great.

[Greg Jenner]

And those orbs. Those orbs that you go into.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Zorbing. Yeah, yeah, Zorbing. You roll around In Great.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Am I right? Am I close?

[Sandy Toksvig]

I wish. No, that would be my dream wedding, I think. Zorbing and pick and mix.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, gosh, it's not even near. But I would like to defend the French before saying what happened. Okay, how shall I defend the French?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

To be fair, first of all, it's from one of the reports of the. Not all of them said that.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I love the way you're trying to lay the groundwork for defense here. We haven't even said it yet.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I should have been a lawyer. Yes, but yeah, all right, so there were courtesans and they dipped their breast in wine and offered it in men and it ended up in an orgy. But honestly, it's what French do. Right, okay.

[Greg Jenner]

So I'm curious to know this. I mean, Chefi was not that shocked.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She wasn't that shocked, which is remarkable.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I love it.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, you did sort of preface it with to be fair to the French. So this was at the actual wedding ceremony, not a stag do.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It was the after party, but the party continues. And what happens is that professional ladies dip their boobs into wine glasses and then everyone licks off the wine and then it turns into an orgy.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm just kind of thinking about this 14 year old lad who's gone to bed with his brand new wife, like waited for her to fall asleep and then tiptoed out again to like lick wine off someone's.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

You know what? I think it happened.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. I mean, it's likely, isn't it? I think we can call it what a nipple tipple. I don't know.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Do you know what?

[Greg Jenner]

I'm going to do that when I next get married.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Good luck, Mark. Okay, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at first sight. But then the drama, really, because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane. Diana de Poitier.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Diane de Poitiers, Yes. So this woman is very important. She's a noble woman and she's a widow. And I would like to say that women in the 16th century are very powerful once they become widow because they still have the wealth of their husband. And if they choose not to marry again, they're in charge of the household. And it's very important here because we have the rise of a woman, highly intelligent and very wealthy. Very beautiful. She's extremely beautiful. There's even a portrait of her with her breast Out. And nipple out.

[Greg Jenner]

And wine on them.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, no wine.

[Greg Jenner]

No wine.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I don't think she was invited to a wedding. But she's gonna become the tutor of Henry, the young man. She's gonna teach him. She was supposed to teach him.

[Greg Jenner]

Is he a bit macron?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, she's 19 years older.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, 19 years old. Totally Macron. And she's gonna teach him more than languages and classical studies. And she's gonna become his lover.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But I think the importance here to remember is not. She's not just a lover in bed. She's queen in all but name. She's gonna become like his shadow.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And for Catherine that we saw. I told you she fell in love. He didn't fall in love with her. So she.

[Greg Jenner]

My shoulders have drooped in sadness.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, it. Think about my orphan girl who has no one all her life. Greg, please. Who has no one all her life. She finally falls in love with this boy. This boy is in love with this woman. This woman is so much more powerful, more beautiful. She has more everything.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm getting Diana and Camilla vibes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay?

[Greg Jenner]

So why don't I just name that?

[Sandy Toksvig]

So Diane de Poitier would be the Camilla in the story.

[Greg Jenner]

Funny how they don't learn, these royals. Just let your children marry who they want.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And so Henri is wearing her colors, the black and white. So he's in front of court. He's wearing her official uniform.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Worse than that, he gives her. Well, later on when he becomes king, he gives her a seat at the privy council.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So that's like making her minister for cultural politics.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Catherine's got no way to combat this woman because this woman's got 20 years on her.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's gonna get worse.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And Catherine really, really wants a castle. A beautiful chateau called Chenonceau. It's a very beautiful castle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's the most beautiful castle. Nothing in front.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And Henri gives it to D. Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He gives it to her.

[Greg Jenner]

Did she point it black and white?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, it's even worse. It's like the H and the D. So h for Henry. D. 14. And I'll tell you a story about this, but it's so. Again, it's like I'm supposed to be your wife and you're giving everything to your mistress. And in front of everyone, there's no, like, trying to not hurt her feelings. It's like, let me hurt your feelings and some more.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I mean, Henri would sit on Diane's lap at court and play the guitar.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow. That is surprisingly creepy. But I don't think it is. He'd sit on her lap.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, not her on his lap. He would sit on her lap and strum his guitar.

[Greg Jenner]

Like it's fascinating.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Like in a sort of emoji with.

[Greg Jenner]

A bib in it. And she's maybe feeding him some mushed up banana.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And he would touch her breasts in front of people. Like he. He was touching her up and playing his guitar. He was strumming, strumming away.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Everyone knew.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child, so she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Indeed, she's not conceiving. But what's going to be very interesting is obviously they're going to try all the treatments possible for this. They're going to ask her, you know, to do anything she can to get pregnant. Including like drinking donkey's urine.

[Greg Jenner]

If you say to your husband, right, darling, it's tonight, I've just drunk a pint of donkey urine. I don't know how much of a turn on that would be anyway.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Even for a French man.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yes, I'm. Yes. Quaffing donkey piss is not really gonna set the mood, is it, Estelle?

[Greg Jenner]

You can say that. I can't. I just really enjoyed that.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And I can only say the first half. So something we haven't said actually is Henri is not the dauphin. Dauphin means the air. The dauphin is supposed. Who's gonna inherit the throne? He is the spare. He is the Prince Harry.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He's the Prince Harry.

[Sandy Toksvig]

His older brother Francois is Prince William, the kind of the heir to the throne. The dauphin.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. We would not have given Francois to.

[Sandy Toksvig]

You know, so he's the backup prince until suddenly he isn't.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, he died. He died tragically.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Francois died tragically. Suspiciously. Chappie.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. He died after drinking a glass of water while playing tennis and everyone thought it was poison because benefit from his death.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Cui bono?

[Greg Jenner]

Diana Diane.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

Catherine Anne.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Henri.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And so she. And basically he had a secretary that was Italian that had came with Catherine to the French court. And he was accused.

[Greg Jenner]

I justify why I said Dan, because if Henri becomes king, true, she's elevated her position. I think she'd want it more than Catherine.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But do you feel.

[Greg Jenner]

That's what I thought. That's where my head.

[Sandy Toksvig]

We've got a new suspect.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, my God, I love this.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I thought she wanted that Catherine's just concerned about having a baby and like being seen.

[Sandy Toksvig]

The Italian secretary is the one who takes the fall.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, he takes the fall because he's.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Got a book on toxicology in his library. He's got a book called how to poison people 101 that comes from a short star.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's against Catherine. So they're really trying to play the fact that this Italian guy was linked somehow to Catherine, that he has this book, and that he would have killed the dauphin for Catherine.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So the Italian guy's called Montecuculli, I think.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, yes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And so that's Francois's secretary. So his death is pretty dramatic. Chappie, do you know how he is executed?

[Greg Jenner]

I imagine humanely sniffing lavender and gently tickled whilst being given a dose of something that will knock him out in two seconds.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I mean, that's certainly a nice way to go if you have to. No, he's ripped apart by horses.

[Greg Jenner]

You know, that was my first thought.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm gonna be optimistic.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's pretty horrible. Catherine not ripped apart by horses. Which is good. Cause it'd be a short podcast. So she doesn't go down for the crime. But there are people who believe that she might be implicated, but they can't prove it.

[Greg Jenner]

Would it have been in Diane's interest for Catherine to be executed and got rid of? Or as a courtesan? Does that not really affect.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Let's talk about this. Because I don't think it did. And I'm gonna. I'll talk about this. Why? I really don't think.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, go for it. Cause I think it's really interesting. The Pope dies.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Which is interesting. So Pope Clement VII dies. Her great uncle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. And the new Pope didn't pay the dowry.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And there's this massive discussion about, okay, we need a divorce between Catherine and Henry. An annulment. Because obviously divorce at this time, we use it so much. But actually didn't happen. Right. You get annulment from the Pope. But what happened was. And I love that Catherine heard all the rumors against her because she couldn't conceive and because of what happened with Francois. Right. The dauphin. So she goes to see the King Francis I, Francois Premier, and she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine. But you can be genuine and smart. All right? And she goes there and she says, like, I understand that it's not good for you to have me as your daughter in law. And because I love you. You know, I'm paraphrasing because I love you so much and respect you so much, and you're like a father to me. I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands. And Francois, who had thought about the king of getting rid of her because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough, really. For Henry is thinking, wait a minute. This woman is very devoted to me, to my family, and he really liked her. They enjoy hunting together. They were riding together. They were like.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She was a great rider, wasn't she?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She was.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She invents side saddle or she pioneers. Yes.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. She's someone who's very. The king. And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. Because he also knows that she's the orphan, always losing her family. And it's going to strengthen their bond. But the problem is going to tell her. But we have a problem. Catherine, I need you to give me. Well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty because it's a very important theme right in the 16th century, as we know, to have, you know, a full dynasty. And that's where for Dian Dian is starting to be scared because. Because right now she only has a little girl, young teenager, and she can fully control her. She's not beautiful, or they say she's not beautiful. What is beauty, honestly? And she doesn't show anything.

[Greg Jenner]

I think you are beautiful, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Sheppy, you're so nice. I think you're beautiful, too.

[Greg Jenner]

And you, Greg.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Thank you.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And what's so very interesting is that for Diana, I can control her. She's not a threat to me and my love with Henry. But what if we get a new wife? It's a new princess. She's more beautiful. Henry becomes in love with her. So then Diane is going to help Catherine. And that's why I want to tell you guys. She helps Catherine conceive, and she's like, okay, let's see what you do with Henry. And she said, you're going to watch what I do. And so she's going to look into your little hole and look what they do. And she's going to realize, oh, my God, he doesn't do that to me. No, baby doesn't do that to you. So then Diane enters the bedroom.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Shafi, your face right now.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know. I wish it was actually filmed.

[Greg Jenner]

You should film this podcast, Renaissance pornhub.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It is porn. Oh, my God. We're getting there.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm not sure. If I should be in the studio.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Sharpie, please.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm a virtuous woman.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I'm very virtuous, too. And what she did was she come in the bedroom with a couple. She prepares Henry until the end.

[Greg Jenner]

Like a fluffer.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Like a fluffer.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And then gives him to Catherine. And this is how they conceived. And kids, guys.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And drinking donkey piss, of course.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. No, no, forget about the donkey piss.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Not just donkey piss. But also wearing. But also wearing cow dung poultices all over the body as well. And grounding up stag antler horn as well.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. But nothing of this worked.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So, you know, if you put the stag antler horn, you grind it up and you eat. Drink it, Eat it.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. As soon as Diane entered this to say help the couple, it worked.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And they have how many children?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

10.

[Sandy Toksvig]

10.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Seven are going to become adults?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

10 times.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, I think she probably did more than that.

[Greg Jenner]

Well, yeah, more than that. Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And I would like to understand here the humiliation for Catherine. It's time to understand that she's not enticing enough for her husband. It creates massive humiliation, resentment. Because even if you see the two women working towards a goal, Right. Catherine is like, I hate this woman.

[Sandy Toksvig]

But I need this woman.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I need this woman, but I hate her.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So the 10 children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all 10 children. So seven survive. The sons are Francois, Charles, Henri, Hercule.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He becomes Francois as well. Yeah. Later on.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Elisabeth, Claude and Margaret. Yeah. Who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty. Chappie. 10 kids, 7 survive. But in 1547, King Francois I died. So the kind of the king who had sort of taken her under his wing and taught her to ride.

[Greg Jenner]

Another person on her side that died.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, that's it. But she is elevated. Her husband is now the king of France. So she is the queen of France.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, but Diane is the queen in all but names.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Come on.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know, I know. It's quite annoying, isn't it?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, so is this where we find Catherine de Medici, queen consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the back seat. Right. She's never shining during his reign. Towards the end. Yes. She's going to play a very important role. 1558, you know, we talk about the loss of Calais. But for the French, it's great. It's a great moment. Woo hoo. Obviously for the English, not so much, but the reason why we got it back, when I say we, obviously the French guys, it's because Catherine gave a speech in the Parlement de Paris and raised money and men for her husband. And he's going to win that battle and win back Calais. Because of Catherine at that time, she becomes closer to Henry because Henry's like, oh my God, you're very intelligent. And Diane starts resenting Catherine because Catherine is starting to shine.

[Greg Jenner]

And also, Henry's growing up a bit and he's probably stopped sitting on her lap.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Diane's also getting older and famously, Diane died in a very interesting way, which has been proven by toxicology. She drank gold.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She believed it was the eternal youth serum. And so she literally guzzled gold and they found it in her bones.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, but she's gonna die way later. Yeah, but she dies later.

[Greg Jenner]

What a dumbass. Is that all right to say? I mean, yeah, I'm all for women, but come on.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. That show was not. I don't like Diane.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Anyway, so Catherine has reclaimed Calais from the English, which is, you know, a great humiliation for the English. In 1558, Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Francoise, to the Duke of Guise niece, and her name is famous to history. She's Mary Queen of Scots.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Her daughter in law is Mary Queen of Scots. Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, that's adorable.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. But we'll do Mary another day. Different episode.

[Greg Jenner]

That blows my mind that like Catherine and Mary, Queen of Scott hung out.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, they didn't like each other that much. There was a tension, there was a push, pull.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But yeah, Mary loved Diane and Diane was a Guise French family, very close. So she loved Diane and I think at some time she was disrespectful to Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

Even with her son's new wife, Catherine was kind of pushed out.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, yes, you can put it that way.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Catherine is now learning about oratory, she's learning about politics. She's also learning about another o the occult. Shappy, have you ever heard of Nostradamus? Yes, Nostradamus was one of her advisors.

[Greg Jenner]

No.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, he does feel very medieval, to be fair.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I would have thought the same if.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I. Yeah, but he's banging around at the French court for some reason.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, just like imagine that. Wandering around. Oi, maestro. Just gonna have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Damas. Damas. Damus.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Nobby.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Nobby.

[Sandy Toksvig]

In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesizes to his queen. He says, the young lion will overcome the old in a field of combat. In a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden ca. Two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Now, what do you think? That sounds like shappy.

[Greg Jenner]

I think it might. Does it involve horses again?

[Sandy Toksvig]

It does. It's a jousting injury. And that literally happens. Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly, Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly, she has a nightmare vision that her husband's gonna die in a joust. As she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. And then he wants a revenge, so he does it again. And this time it goes through his eye.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain, and he.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He died.

[Sandy Toksvig]

In 10 days, Henri, her husband, is dead. Which means Diane de Poitiers out.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes. That's the revenge. Yeah, Diane is out. And she sent a letter to Catherine to apologize for all the years of humiliations.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, that happened to me once. Ooh, yeah. This queen, right? No, I didn't know. But I once had a letter of apology from someone who was really horrific to me once they had been lost their power.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Really?

[Greg Jenner]

Isn't that fascinating?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It is fascinating. Well, obviously Catherine said gave me back Chenonceau, so, you know the H and D everywhere. She changed D to C and H.

[Greg Jenner]

And C. The beautiful castle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. And she. She took it back.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm so glad she took it back. Tell me the name of the castle again, just in case.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Chenonceau.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Chenonceau.

[Greg Jenner]

C. H E. Don't judge my writing of French. When it comes to playtime, never let your squad down. Unlock elite gaming [e-mail]. push your gameplay beyond performance with 13th gen Intel Core processors. Upgrade to smooth, high quality streaming with Intel Wi Fi 6e and maximize game performance with enhanced overclocking. Win the tech search and head to lenovo.com.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So Henri is dead. The king is dead. Long live the king. Her son is now king.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And Mary Stuart is Queen of France.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Right, so Mary Queen of Scots is now Queen of France. Francois is King of France. But he's only 15. Shappy, you've got Teenage. You've got a teenage boy.

[Greg Jenner]

I've got a teenage boy who was very into politics.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay. How would he do at ruling the country?

[Greg Jenner]

I think at 15, he would build really interesting town centres.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de Medici, who's now really running the show?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Stuart's family, the Guises. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles. The Guises.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So the Guise. G U I S E S. Yes, the Guises.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

But Catherine is gonna try. She's gonna fight to remain an advisor to her son, and he's gonna accept this. But their relationship between her firstborn and herself, they're good. They're not very strong. He also really loved. I think he's the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary Stuart. He really loved Mary. And so his allegiance is going to go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of, like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France. And that is a title that has never been given before. And it's a very important title because in the title you have queen. I want to tell you that before Francis, I had his mother, she was mother of the King. And you see the difference between mother of the King and Queen Mother. And there's an importance, a title she gives herself, and that's going to have more and more importance in the years to come.

[Sandy Toksvig]

There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. They are pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons, who make delicious biscuits.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He fondly.

[Sandy Toksvig]

They're led by Antoine, King of Navarre, which is Spain, or sort of near Spain. Navarre.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Navarre is a small territory between Spain and France and that has had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So Antoine and his brother Louis Cond. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They're on opposite sides politically and religion wise.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And they're royal blood. Both of them have, like, princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And the Guises effectively kidnap Francois. They sort of sweep into the palace and they sort of stick him in a cupboard and kind of rule for him.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, I mean, again, okay, that's Again, from a source that is like they're detractors. But there's a bit of truth in that in terms of like, they controlled him.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. Okay, so the Guises and Catherine are sort of sharing power at court. Catherine doesn't have that much power, but the Guises renege on their loans. They cut the pensions. They don't pay the soldiers. They are not good at running the country. People don't like them. Right. They send troops off to Scotland. Cause of Mary Queen of Scots.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So the French are starting to go. Hang on a minute. But they also, of course, they're cracking down. Because the Bourbons are the Protestants.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And the Guises are Catholics. Then we have more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwell. Chappie. And Catherine, having seen her or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen.

[Greg Jenner]

Her big boy.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to one king and trying to prep the next one.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And he's only nine.

[Sandy Toksvig]

He's nine years old.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, well, they're quite sensible at that age.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, okay, so your 15 year old, your teenage boy would plan town centers. What would. Your nine. What would ask his mummy.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Exactly. You sound like Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

I sound like a mother.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. Which son is this, then?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It's Charles. It's gonna be Charles IX of France. He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother. And Catherine, she's become the matriarch of a family.

[Sandy Toksvig]

We do now have the French wars of religion.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flipping here, but they kill over 2 million people.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. Over 30 years. Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Over three decades. Sure. But millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenot. And Catherine's sort of reign, I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She's ruling at that.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She rules.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah. She's in.

[Sandy Toksvig]

We have to now put this into the context of the time. Right. So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially. And then there's a peace treaty.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And then they start again.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And then they start again.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

They always start again. There's always a mean where that's one thing about Catherine, like her dark legend, and even you see it in the Serpent Queen by stars is like she's the one instigating those wars and she's not. There's no monarch. And mark my word here, it's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, it's expensive. It's terrifying. You can't trust who's on your team.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Exactly.

[Sandy Toksvig]

You don't want wars. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy, where the Huguenots, it's.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

The Guises who are going to kill the Huguenots for worshiping. Vasis is in their territory in Lorraine, and on their way back to Joinville, they're going to see that the Huguenots are worshipping not outside of the town, but inside the town. And it's against the law. And they decide to kill all of them.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's horrific. In France, it's devastating. But also, foreign powers get involved. So Philip, the King of Spain sends 13,000 soldiers to the Catholic side. Elizabeth of England sends 6,000 men to defend the Huguenot. And Prince Cond, The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orleans in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

From 1562 to 1598.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So let's just sort of park that there and say hope. This is the political context. In the middle of Catherine's rule, these horrifying wars between.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And her sons. Yeah, and her sons, they don't have peace.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. But let's do something funny because it's a comedy show.

[Greg Jenner]

Very sad. Yeah, I write my notebook sad.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, let's try and perk you up, Shappy. What do you think Queen Catherine's flying squadron was?

[Greg Jenner]

Was it winged monkeys? Okay, so they definitely didn't have planes.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Nope.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay. Did they have pigeons?

[Sandy Toksvig]

They did have pigeons. So you're thinking. You're thinking what? Carrier pigeon.

[Greg Jenner]

Carrier pigeons. Or maybe hawks.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's a good idea.

[Greg Jenner]

Is it a bird of prey?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It is a good idea.

[Sandy Toksvig]

They are not. They're preying on people, but they're not birds of prey. Oh, well, I mean, maybe the geezers would call them birds, but.

[Greg Jenner]

No, they're women.

[Sandy Toksvig]

They're women.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, wow.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's a. It's a sort of spy network of hot lady ladies.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes. Again, I would just like to say that it's been also, like, it's a myth around Catherine.

[Greg Jenner]

They have flying squadron.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So they're called the flying squadron. And they were noble women between 80 and 300 noblewomen, well born girls who were there to basically flirt men, to manipulate them for Catherine's interest. But let me just say, like historians have debunked that myth because it's important to say, because if Catherine had been that successful with so many women being able to flirt and obviously have sex with noblemen to get what she wanted, do you think she would have had such a hard time for the next 30 years? Probably not. That's one thing. But it is true. That is Isabelle de Limoy, she became Conde's mistress. And Conde is a Bourbon.

[Sandy Toksvig]

He's a Huguenot. He's a Huguenot.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He's a Huguenot, he's a Protestant. And, and it is true that there was like some inference from Catherine where she wanted to know what he had in mind, what he had planned. So she did seduce him to get information for Catherine and it worked. But I think from that real example they just made it up that Catherine was just basically paying women to sleep with men to get information.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So that was our fun detour. Now back to the wars of religion. Yes, sorry.

[Greg Jenner]

Thanks for that.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Sorry, Schnappy. I mean the horrifying events. The key event is called St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Catherine is often blamed for this.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Absolutely. So in this massacre is that she wants to bring peace to France and she's going to give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is going to happen in Paris and they're going to invite all the Protestants. So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate, celebrate the wedding. And so far so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August, 1572, isn't it 1572? Thank you, Greg. The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563 because he'd been assassinated. He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Coligny. He's going to ask for refuge to Catherine de Medici, who's going to grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies and they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants, thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris, it goes to Rouen, it goes to different cities and Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it. Catherine is the one who organized it, who plotted it, when Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son, to save as many Protestants as Possible. Including Sir Francis Walsingham, the English ambassador of Elizabeth I.

[Sandy Toksvig]

There's no one in the 16th century who is a nice person in power. Like, you have to be cruel, you have to be ruthless. So let's.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

To survive.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. That's how power works in the 16th. I mean, people have often commented she's very Cersei Lannister. That's the very game of Thrones. This is the Red Wedding.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I don't disagree with this.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I know you do. And, and I think this is the thing. Catherine is often seen through the lens of other people from history, and it's an interesting legacy. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now onto her third son. Yes, another Henri.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Oh, where's the spare?

[Sandy Toksvig]

The spare for the spare.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

The spare for the spare.

[Greg Jenner]

Charles. Francis and Charles are both dead. And now we're on to Henri and.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She has another one. So she's like, it's okay.

[Sandy Toksvig]

He's Hercule, isn't he? Yeah. And so you've got Henrietta Henry. He's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappy. Do you know why?

[Greg Jenner]

Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he?

[Sandy Toksvig]

No, weirdly, he was King of Poland for a bit.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, well, we all do work as King of Poland. I've been King of Poland.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's like the Duke of Edinburgh award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henry the new new new king of France?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Henry III of France. He was elected King of Poland. And when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Because can you imagine being ditched by your king?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No, but. Exactly. No, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here because he was like, oh, my Catherine was like, come back here. And he's like, they're not gonna be happy. I'd just be a king for him.

[Greg Jenner]

I like when you. When you've applied for a new job and not told your and now you.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Have a better opportunity that you were not supposed to have. Right. It's like, France is better. Right? Like so sorry guys, but that's how they felt at that time. So he had to hide. He went down a window and. And, and was. And he wrote at night and it just. Such a fascinating story. First of all, he was absolutely gorgeous. I think that helps. I mean, people are like, oh, yeah, you don't know when your kid is friendly.

[Greg Jenner]

Mine told me that he's a good looking Fellow still talk about it.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So gorgeous. He's dashing. He's absolutely dashing. Even Elizabeth I, he's dashing off.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Sorry, chaps. Love being King of Poland. Gotta go.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

What's very interesting is that there were rumors that he was a homosexual. He slept with his mignon, his favorite. With his men. There is no evidence whatsoever of this, if at all, it's the contrary. And I'm going to tell you two reasons why there are all these rumors about him and why they're not true. The first one is he had lots of mistresses, but because he Love. It's the only love story we're going to have here. He loved his wife. It was a love match. He chose Louise de Lorme von. Who was a guise. And her allegiance is going to go to him, not her family. And then you have. Obviously, I love that Chappelle's taking notes. And then the reason why as well, I know for sure that he didn't have any things with his mignon is because I've read hundreds, if not thousands of his letters. And he described his poo in his letter. So if he had had sex with one of his men, he would have said, oh, my God, Having you inside me last night was so amazing. He never did. He never did. All he did is like, I kiss your hands and feet. And it's just a mark of allegiance. People say, because he said that to a man, I kiss your hand and feet. It's because he had sex with him. His mother did the same. She wrote to him, I kiss your hand and feet. It was actually a mark of legion, a total loyalty.

[Sandy Toksvig]

But he describes his poo. He keeps a poo diary, which.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, honestly.

[Greg Jenner]

What did he say about his poo?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It was green and smelly. And he reported that to his. I'm sorry, guys. He reported that to his advisor. Can you imagine the privy Councillor receiving the letter, my king had a green poo today. It was very smelly.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's, you know, still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed Francois, Duke of Alencon.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Easier to say.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And he's being dangled in front of. In fact, Catherine is doing the dangling. She's dangling him in front of someone for marriage. Do you know who that would be? Eligible lady?

[Greg Jenner]

But it really seems to me, given the times, this was a literal dangling. Who could it have been back then?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Who's Single and ready to mingle on the marriage market.

[Greg Jenner]

I don't know. Oh, no.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Red hair.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, it's not. I know. Red hair, is it? It's not Joan of Arc, is it?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

No. Is it?

[Sandy Toksvig]

Queen Elizabeth I's a young lady and he's being sort of pushed in front of Queen Elizabeth, who's much older, for.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

11 years of marriage negotiation. 11 years. Elizabeth said, yes, I will. No, I. Yes, I will. No, I won't. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I will. I won't. 11 years. I mean, if you, you can call the French stupid, you can.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Her nickname for him is Frog.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

What?

[Sandy Toksvig]

She nicknames him Frog.

[Greg Jenner]

So she was quite a lot older than Hercule.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, yeah, she's, yeah, she was, yeah. He's, he's in his late 20s, about 20, 25 years. And they've met each other twice. He came to England twice and they partied together. I'm going to tell you a story.

[Greg Jenner]

So she did sit on her lap and play the liar.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I hope you didn't. I don't think, I don't think she was the type of woman. But they had so much fun that she g, she promised in front of everyone, I will marry you in front of everyone. 1581. He's so happy. He's like, oh, my God. Finally, you know, after 10 years. Can you imagine? But imagine, like, thinking that someone's going to marry you for 10 years and they don't. And the next morning she said, oh, yeah, about last night, I, I, I didn't mean it. But it doesn't sound to you shappy? Tell me your honest answer was absolutely hungover. Like, oh, my God, what did I say? That's not what I said.

[Greg Jenner]

We've all had mornings like that.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yeah, well, you promised to marry someone. I didn't have that, but she did. And I think it's hilarious that, you know, the next day. Oh, my God. What did I, what did I say? Oh, no, I didn't mean it. It's not gonna happen.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, he doesn't marry her, of course, because she remains the virgin Queen. But Francis Hercule sadly dies, age 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands. So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

She is the grandmother of Europe.

[Sandy Toksvig]

She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, she's the grandmother of the incentives of Spain.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Because she married her first daughter to Philip ii.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And they had two daughters.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Absolutely.

[Sandy Toksvig]

France and Spain are superpowers.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

And then she has people in Lorraine, in Tuscany, like, she, she, she is the grandmother of Europe.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point. Not like elderly, but she, you know, she's lived a life by this point. So what, what's life like for her in the mid-1815, 80s or so?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, for her, it's very hard because in 1585, there's the eighth religious civil war that is triggered obviously by the death of her son, her last son also. You have to realize that now, you know, she, she's counting her kids, you know, oh, my God. And they're still Henry, but Henry and herself. So her favorite son are going to drift apart because Henry III is going to make a secret alliance with Elizabeth I, because he understands now that the Protestants don't want his crown, but the Guises and Mary Stuart want much power in Europe.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Right.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

So he's going to make a secret alliance and Catherine is going to get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith ultimately in France. So they drift apart. Catherine ends up hating Elizabeth I. And when Elizabeth ordered the execution of Mary Stuart in 1587, Catherine is almost like, who does she think she is? Like, I hate this woman. And so you really have. Those two are drifting apart, they're fighting, and Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing. He's going to order the murder of the Guises and Catherine de Meychi is going to know that's the end. I think she really gets very ill at that time. So it's December 1588, she gets very ill and she has no way to recover because the country is in. Honestly, it's hell. France is hell at that point. And she dies on the 5th of January, 1589. And I'm so glad she didn't see her favorite son, the beautiful Henry, murdered. He's murdered a few months later in August 1589.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

He's assassinated.

[Sandy Toksvig]

So she dies, age 69, France still ripped apart by religious war. Her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabil? Well, stabilizing influence. But she's not managed to stabilize everything, obviously. So what happens to Valois line, her dynasty?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It ends. Because obviously, Henry dies in 1589 as well. It's the end of the Valois. And then you have Henri de Navarre with his wife, Margaret of Valois, who become king and queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It's a life and a half, isn't it, Chappie?

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

It is.

[Sandy Toksvig]

We've gone through there.

[Greg Jenner]

Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you, if you had all. All that money? Just sit somewhere quietly and chill.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, I just go to Chenonceau and just make myself a cocktail and just.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Read a book in front of a fire.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, Just play volleyball in the garden.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, just breed puppies. Wow.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I know.

[Greg Jenner]

But, you know, but the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Absolutely.

[Greg Jenner]

She clearly had massive attachment issues, and everyone that was, like, related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. Yeah, that's the only way. She would like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love. They feel power is the only thing that will sate them. And as we all know, that always leads to disaster.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Yes, it does. It does.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, there we go.

[Greg Jenner]

So quite wise of me.

[Sandy Toksvig]

I was very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The Nuance Window. Right, it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Shappy and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes. Tells us something we need to know about Catherine de Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Doctor. Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Well, I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the dark queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. And to show it to you, I'm going to discuss two things briefly with you. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children, but also her grandchildren. She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, their Spanish granddaughters. She sent them gifts. Monkeys. And part of these gifts, I know, quite. Quite unusual. Not unusual for the time, if I'm really honest with you. But the thing that I find it very touching about Catherine is the way she treated Henry III's wife, Louise de Laurent Vaudemont, who was a Guise by blood, but a Valois by choice. And she gave her, at her death, Chenonceau. She gave Chenonceau to this queen who was then going to lose, obviously, her husband and is going to fight until the end to get recognition for her husband, because she really believed that he did what he. Because of what was happening in France at the time. With the Guises, she was not perfect. And Greg, on that, you are totally right to point it out. To be in power, you have to be ruthless. But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created, you know, all the wars of religion. When you look at French books, it's always like, Catherine de Medici's fault. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately, that, you know, prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century. Gravely. So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and we tried to do her best for France and her family.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Thank you very much. Beautifully said.

[Greg Jenner]

It was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed Estelle, your passion for her.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been lovely. And you've made me like her, too.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I'm so happy.

[Sandy Toksvig]

What an extraordinary life. And as we say, you know, her childhood was so sad. Just to come back from that alone is impressive. So what do you know? Now, this is our quick fire quiz for Chappie to see how much he has learned. We've done an awful lot of Henri's and Francoises and all sorts of names. Are you feeling confident, do you think? I mean, you've been taking great notes.

[Greg Jenner]

I remember Ecule.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Okay, I don't think he's in. I don't think he's in the quiz. But maybe. Maybe we'll get lucky. But we've got 10 questions. Here we go. Question one. Which family member acted as Catherine's guardian for much of her childhood from his fancy palace?

[Greg Jenner]

It was Pope Clement.

[Sandy Toksvig]

It was Clement vii. Well done. Question two. How did the French court unconventionally celebrate Catherine's marriage to Prince Henri in 1533? When they went to bed, they dipped.

[Greg Jenner]

Some boobs and wine and drank it.

[Sandy Toksvig]

They did. It was an orgy.

[Greg Jenner]

An orgy.

[Sandy Toksvig]

A classic. Absolutely. The dipping of the nipping. Yes. Question three. Why was Catherine a suspect in the death of her husband's older brother in 1538?

[Greg Jenner]

Because his death meant that she would be queen.

[Sandy Toksvig]

That's right. And he suddenly keeled over playing tennis. It was all very suspicious. Question 4. Who was Diane de Poitier?

[Greg Jenner]

Diane de Poitier was Henri, who was Catherine's husband's mistress.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Very good. Well done. Yeah. I used to miss, not to be.

[Greg Jenner]

Confused with Sidney Poitiers.

[Sandy Toksvig]

No. Question five. Can you name three of Catherine's ten children?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. Margaret.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Hercule.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yep.

[Greg Jenner]

And Andre.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Very good. Question 6. What allegedly was Catherine's flying squadron? Not monkeys.

[Greg Jenner]

Her flying squadron was allegedly Beautiful women sent out to hoodwink men into giving them info.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Very good. Question 7. How did her husband kill King Henry II Die? Rather horribly.

[Greg Jenner]

He died in a jousting.

[Sandy Toksvig]

He did, yes. Jousting. During incident. Question 8. What was the name of the devastating conflict that lasted from 1562 to 1598 in France?

[Greg Jenner]

Something. St. Bartholomew Day.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yes. Yeah, you have that. That's well done. Yeah. So it's called the wars of religion and the St. Bartholomew Day of Massacre. Well done, well remembered. Okay. And question nine. Which powerful Catholic family did Catherine have to contend with during her time as regent and Queen Mother?

[Greg Jenner]

The geezers.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, geezers.

[Greg Jenner]

I've been waiting to say the geezers.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And you did it beautifully. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10. Chappie Khorsande. Wow. Question 10. Which title did Catherine give herself that had never been used before in France?

[Greg Jenner]

It was the Mother of France. The Mother of the country.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah, Queen. Yeah, The Queen Mother. Mother of the country.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

I think I'm giving you two love Mother of France.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Yeah. Giving you ten. Ten out of ten. Chappie.

[Greg Jenner]

That's the best I've ever done in any exam, ever.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And you. And you did so well because we had so many random Henris and Francoises just bouncing around.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you know what? This has been so fascinating. I've really, really enjoyed this, and I'm gonna buy your book the minute I leave this studio.

[Sandy Toksvig]

Well, okay. Well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Chappie and listener. If you want to hear more of Shappy, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal royal rags to riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, so you never miss an episode. And I just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner, we have the excellent Dr. Estelle Paronc from Northeastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle.

[Dr. Estelle Perronc]

Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And in Comedy Corner, we had the sensational Shapirak Khosandi. Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you so much. It's been fab.

[Sandy Toksvig]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and crash a wedding and dip my nips in. Everyone's glasses. Bye. This episode of youf're Dead To Me was researched by Hannah Cusworth. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Nagus and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer producer Emma Nagus. And our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead To Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello, this is Marion Keyes and this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now youw're Asking. Each week we take real listeners questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets or the lack of anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help but also hopefully entertain. Join us for don't you Search up now you're Asking on BBC Sounds Tanking.