India Between Empires (Radio Edit)

Summary

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You're Dead To Me – "India Between Empires" (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You’re Dead To Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Jagjeet Lali (UCL, historian), Nish Kumar (comedian)
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the political, economic, and cultural transformations of India during the long 18th century—roughly from the 1680s to the 1840s. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr. Jagjeet Lali and comedian Nish Kumar to “take history seriously” while having some laughs. They unpack the complexity of Indian states before British domination, the richness of indigenous capitalism, and the arrival of various European powers, challenging simplistic, colonially-influenced narratives of chaotic decline.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Opening Banter and the “Long 18th Century”

• Historical Framing: Dr. Lali prefers a "long 18th century" (c. 1680s–1840s) to capture the dramatic transformations from Mughal expansion through the rise of regional powers and the onset of British rule.

  “I love the 18th century so much that I like to think of a really long 18th century... It’s a really exciting time of economic and cultural change and political change.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [04:33]

• Nish Kumar’s Candid Admission: Nish humorously admits to panic and limited expertise on this era, capturing the British schooling habit of skipping over periods between Mughal glory and Partition.

  “I know the white man turned up and was up to his usual malarkey.” – Nish Kumar [02:56]

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Major Regional Powers after the Mughals

• The Mughal Legacy: Brief recap from Babur (1526) to Aurangzeb’s death in 1707, marking a shift from Mughal centrality to decentralized new polities.

  “We used to talk about decline quite a lot...there’s a process of change and transformation that occurs…” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [05:56]

• The Marathas: Their rise in the Deccan, led by Shivaji, demonstrates fluid alliances across faiths and the forming of new ‘chhatrapati’ dynasties.

  “These religious boundaries are becoming ossified in this period… In the end, it doesn’t really matter because what Shivaji does is he has himself coronated as a king.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [07:27]

• Rajputs: Rajput kingdoms (Udaipur/Mewar, Jodhpur, Jaipur) as tourist hotspots today, iconic for their palaces and elephants—thanks to James Bond, even!

  “Incidentally, Udaipur is where the James Bond film Octopussy was filmed...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [09:38] “The main Indian guy in Octopussy is Vijay Amritraj. He’s a tennis player.” – Nish Kumar [09:58]

• Sikh Empire: Emergence via Guru Nanak’s legacy, militarization, and ultimate unification by Ranjit Singh in 1799, briefly forming a strong regional power until British intervention.

  “At its height, the Sikh Empire reaches towards what is now called the Northwest frontier... it’s in 1799 that these missiles are united by Ranjit Singh into the Sikh empire.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [10:50; 11:58]

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The Arrival of European Trading Companies

• A Crowded Field: The British weren’t alone—Portuguese, Dutch, French, and even Danes had stakes in Indian commerce.

  “It all began, of course, with Vasco da Gama’s famous voyage to Asia... for much of the 16th century, the Portuguese are exploiting this new knowledge of how to get to Asia.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [13:19] “They were basically a maritime VPN service.” – Greg Jenner on the Danish in India [15:20]

• Indian Commerce Preceded Europeans: India was already part of vast overland and maritime trade networks—linking Central Asia, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

  “India is really plugged into trade networks in every direction… there are all the ports in the Arab peninsula, the Red Sea region and East Africa … these are just some of the places where you either find Indian goods or you find Indian merchants.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [15:57]

• Fun Fact – Indigo Dye: Name comes straight from “India”; the story of its cultivation and global spread, from Indian fields to South Carolina plantations—highlighting early globalisation and exploitation.

  “Oh, I've got a good story about indigo… it’s called indigo because it comes from India.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [17:32]
  “You want indigo, you got go Indy.” – Nish Kumar [17:51]

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Capitalism Before the British

• Challenging the “Capitalism came with the British” Trope: Banking, finance, property markets, and merchant power were well-established—and sometimes more innovatively so—before British domination.

  “One of the things we've known for quite a while now is that there are similar developments in banking and finance and trade and the market happening fairly simultaneously across Europe, but also the Middle east and parts of Asia, including India.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [19:28]

• Merchants, Bankers, Bureaucrats: New rulers (and old ones) relied on financiers and merchants to build states, increase production, and expand trade, calling forth a new capitalist dynamism.

  “People's awareness of the value of real estate and their assets, for example, has intensified by this period. People are really fighting over them...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [20:10]

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Warriors for Hire: Mercenaries and Violence Markets

• The Market for Violence: Professional soldiers (mercenaries) like Amir Khan became regional power-brokers, trading loyalty and force for land and titles.

  “There's what I've called a whole market for violence, which already exists by the 18th century... it's not uncommon for some of them to be given land in return for their loyal service and to form principalities of their own.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [22:32]

• Unexpected Retirement: Sometimes, mercenaries “retired” to their own domains—a twist on popular expectations.

  "You don't associate mercenaries with, like, winding down. When you hear mercenary, you don't think gentle retirement, getting into gardening." – Nish Kumar [23:38]

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[24:01] The Nuance Window – Historians Rethink the 18th Century

• Changing Perspectives: Two sources shaped the “chaos and decline” narrative—Mughal chroniclers and British colonial writers, both seeking to legitimize their power.
• Revisionism Since the 1970s: Focus shifted to the dynamism of new regional courts; “islands of economic prosperity” and vibrant cultural life emerged. The social history of ordinary people, though, remains underexplored.

  “These two very different groups of writers... gave us a very similar and very negative picture of the century. And that picture more or less persisted until around about the late 1970s, when historians started to turn their attention to all these new regional courts that we've been talking about...and it showed...islands of economic prosperity at a very regional level…” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [24:17] “More recent work in the wake of the cultural turn has focused on court culture, art, poetry, music, intellectual life, and it’s shown us just how vibrant these regional centres were...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [26:00] “What’s maybe been missed…is detail about the lives of fairly ordinary people and how that was changing.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [26:09]

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[26:27] Final Reflections

• Nish’s Takeaway: Recognizes the need to see 18th-century India as a space of independent agency, not just passive victim of colonialism or capitalism.

  “Even when we're trying to write positive histories…we still have this victim narrative around it… it really benefits to understand that there was a whole independent culture and country that was evolving and to look at it through a non-European lens.” – Nish Kumar [27:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dutch/French/Danish Competition:
  “Why did none of these people have their own names?” – Nish Kumar [13:07]
• On Indo-European Economic Ties:
  “They were basically a maritime VPN service.” – Greg Jenner [15:20]
• Comedy on Indigo's Etymology:
  “You want indigo, you got go Indy.” – Nish Kumar [17:51]
• Mercenaries and their Surprising Destinies:
  “If you do [see a mercenary retire to gardening], they're up to something.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [23:47]
• Rethinking India’s Agency Pre-Empire:
  “Capitalism…comes to a kind of crescendo in the 18th century.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [19:28]

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Key Timestamps

• Intro to Guests & Purpose: [01:10]
• “So What Do You Know?”—Cultural Memories & Gaps: [03:39]
• Long 18th Century & Power Shifts: [04:33]–[09:10]
• European Powers & Indian Global Trade: [13:19]–[17:29]
• Indigo & Globalisation: [17:29]–[19:12]
• Capitalism & Indian Innovation: [19:17]–[21:34]
• Mercenaries & New Political Orders: [22:02]–[23:36]
• The Nuance Window–Changing Historiography: [24:01]–[26:13]
• Final Thoughts on Framing Indian History: [26:27]–[28:03]

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Tone and Style

As always, the episode mixes expert scholarship with wit and relatable pop culture references. Nish brings gentle self-deprecation and sharp asides; Dr. Lali delivers concise, nuanced history; Greg Jenner steers with energy and inclusive curiosity.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode busts the myth of a “chaotic decline” before British rule, presenting 18th-century India as a place of vibrant change, complex politics, dynamic economy, and lively cultural innovation—rich with agency, not just passivity in the face of empire.

If you want to rethink the narrative of India before the Raj, this episode delivers entertainment and real historical depth in equal measure.

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Transcript

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Greg Jenner]

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap.

[Mark Kermode]

You're almost at the finish line, but first.

[Greg Jenner]

There, the last one.

Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are joining a trading caravan and trekking all the way back to the 18th century to learn about Indian political and cultural life in this particular period. And to help us, we have two very special guests in History Corner. He's Associate professor of the history of Early Modern and Colonial India at ucl. He's a historian of economic and material life in early modern India with a special interest in trade. You might have read one of his wonderful books, India and the Silk Roads or India and the early modern world. It's Dr. Jageet Lali. Welcome, Jageet.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Hi Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, presenter and podcaster. You'll have seen him all over the TV on the MASH Report, qi, Mock the Week Live at the Apollo, the best ever series of Taskmaster, no Arguments. He's also the co host of Pod Save the UK and a frequent guest on the Bugle podcast and radio for some news quiz. He's very busy and you might have seen one of his award winning stand up shows, including his most recent, Nish Don't Kill My Vibe, it's Nish Kumar. Welcome, Nish.

[Nish Kumar]

Genuinely, I'm so excited. I, I will say I put myself in a bit of a difficult position here because I did study history to an undergraduate level. So like there's a lot of pressure on me to at least loosely sound like I know what I'm talking about and I am feeling the genuine hot flush of panic. Just for the benefit of listeners, there's a circular seating arrangement and it is genuinely giving me flashbacks to Feeling underprepared. In history seminars.

[Greg Jenner]

How are you on 18th century India?

[Nish Kumar]

Basically, I've got some awareness of 1857, the uprisings, and how that 18th century. Oh, my God. I've got. I've got it wrong.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Immediately.

[Greg Jenner]

Get out. This.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

This is gonna be fun.

[Nish Kumar]

This is gonna be an absolute disaster. I've got almost no knowledge of the 18th century in India. I know the white man turned up and was up to his usual malarkey.

[Greg Jenner]

Guilty. Yeah. Okay.

[Nish Kumar]

The only bit of it that I. This specific Indian history I studied was we did a bit of mogul stuff because, you know, the British Warmer. In the British state education curriculum, we like to do stuff before the British turn up, just to set the scene that it was bad and we didn't make things that much worse in the grand scheme of things. And then I did a lot of stuff about the partition of India.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know?

This brings us to the first segment of the podcast is called the so what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. This one might be a bit of an unfamiliar topic. 18th century India usually only comes up for British audiences through TV dramas about the East India Company, specifically, like the Tom Hardy show Taboo or the recent one Nautilus. If you're a fan of Indian cinema, maybe you've seen the films Panipat, about the 1761 battle between the Maratha and the Afghan army. Or there's Bajira Mastani, a tragic love story set at the Maratha court. Or there's Kerala Varma Pasashi Raja, featuring the king of Kathayam and his fight against the East India Company. I don't know if I'm murdering these. These lovely words, but I'm trying my best. But what was really going on in India in this period? How big a role did the British actually play, as Nish has alluded to? Let's find out. Right, Jagjeet, can we start with some basics? When exactly are we talking about? And why is this such an exciting moment in Indian history?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Well, I love the 18th century so much that I like to think of a really long 18th century. So longer than just 1700-1799. I really want everyone to get their value for money. So for me, the long 18th century probably started around the 1680s, when the Mughals are expanding the empire into the south, into the Indian peninsula. We can say it probably ended around about the 1820s, maybe even the 1840s, when the last of those great post Mughal kingdoms were conquered by the East India Company. And in between that, there's a whole lot of stuff going on. It's a really exciting time of economic and cultural change and political change. I suppose another reason why I'm interested in a long 18th century is because we think of that kind of time period when we think about British history. So Britain from the Glorious Revolution through to the Industrial Revolution or Queen Victoria's reign. And I think that's quite a useful framing for comparison to what's going on in India. And one final reason why I like this long 18th century is because we associate that period with the Enlightenment, with coffee houses, all kinds of new material culture. And a lot of that stuff is going on in India too. It helps to think about all of that, I think.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so we've got our sort of frame of reference. We've done a Mughals episode before and if you want to listen to that, you can. It's a good one. But by the 1700s they were in trouble. Jackji.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah, it's definitely a bit of a turning point compared to what came before. So a bit of a recap since you need to fill in some of the blanks. The founder of the Mughal Empire, he's born in Central Asia and he's a descendant of both Genghis Khan and Timur, or Tamerlane as some people might know him, these two great world conquerors. His name is Babur and he defeats the Sultans of Delhi to establish what we call the Mughal Empire in north India in 1526. The empire basically grows in fits and starts through to about the end of the 17th, early 18th century, to the death of the sixth emperor Aurangzeb. We used to talk about decline quite a lot. And what historians have really tried to emphasize is that there's a process of change and transformation that occurs after the empire starts to retreat territorially. The Emperor Aurangzeb, he dies and there's a period of factionalism at court, there's a lack of clear leadership. And that's when I think the imperial centre starts to lose a grip over some of the outlying provinces.

[Greg Jenner]

So we've got various independent states throughout India, because as the Mughals sort of retrench, not necessarily decline, but as they, you know, their territories reduce, perhaps. So we've got independent states in Bengal, we've got Awad, we've got Hyderabad, we got Sikhs in Punjab. Let's talk about one of the rising powers then. This would be the Maratha in the Deccan Peninsula. That's sort of sort of center of the Indian subcontinent. They've got a leader by the name of Shivaji.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Shivaji, like many people of many different faiths in this period, serves masters of other faiths, Right? Yeah. These kinds of distinctions of between different religious groups are being made in this period, but they're maybe not as hard as and rigid as they've become today.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Right. So we kind of look back and we can sort of over determine these kinds of religious conflicts. That's not to say that there aren't religious conflicts, but they are really. These religious boundaries are becoming ossified in this period. When the Mughals start moving into the south, into the Deccan, they start trying to expand their empire into the peninsula. Shivaji thinks this might be a good moment for him. So he tries to sort of broker an agreement with the Mughals. But I don't think the Mughals take him perhaps as seriously as they should have taken him. And I think that's where one of the falling outs happens. Wouldn't be the first time that the. The Mughals think of outsiders in this manner. I mean, they write about Afghans in this way. They write about various groups who, over the 18th century, are coming to power in and around Delhi. They see them as sort of people who are outside of the Mughal order, who people are uncivilized or a bit rough around the edges. In the end, it doesn't really matter because what Shivaji does is he has himself coronated as a king. And in 1674, he assembles a group of Brahmin priests who perform all the necessary rituals in order to have him crowned as a chhatrapati, a lord of the umbrella, which is kind of like a kind of lordly title. The empire is expanding, and I think the Marathas really seize the moment. After Aurangzeb's death and the political instability in the imperial court, as well as the lack of clear leadership to expand in the south.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's talk about the Rajput empire as well, because this is another power rising and suddenly having a good time. Where is this in the geography of India? In north?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

The Rajputs that most people think about when they think about the Rajputs. I'm sure lots of people are thinking about the Rajputs a lot of the time.

[Nish Kumar]

The ruling house again.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Oh, my goodness. How many times today?

[Nish Kumar]

Oh, five times at least.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Wow, that's a slow day today.

So the grandest of all the Rajput royal houses are the ones that are in what's today Rajasthan One of the preeminent Rajput kingdoms is Mewar or Udaipur, which was ruled by the Sisodia dynasty. Incidentally, Udaipur is where the James Bond film Octopussy was filmed. Oh, if you go there, you can pretty much see it on loop every single night.

[Nish Kumar]

One of the boldest casting choices in human history. They needed to cast an Indian. Who did they go to? One of the actors from the second biggest film industry in the world, I think at the time. No tennis player. The main Indian guy in Octopus is Vijay Amritraj. He's a tennis player.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

As well as the Udaipur Rajputkur at Marwar, there are the Rators with their capital at Jodhpur and then the Kachwahas in neighbouring Jaipur. Udaipur and Jaipur and Jodhpur. These are the places that lots of people go to on holiday. They're on countless documentaries. They give us that image of royal India as sort of castles and palaces and elephants. So they are the Rajput sort of dynasties that we think of.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's add another empire into our catalogue of empires, the Sikh Empire, which I guess is almost into Afghanistan as well. We're in North West India now.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

The Sikh Empire does abut Ahmed Shah's and his descendants kingdom. At its height, the Sikh Empire reaches towards what is now called the Northwest frontier. But the Sikh Empire is one that's formed quite late in the 18th century, in fact, right at the end of the century, which is why I like the idea of a long 18th century. What's happening beforehand is also, I suppose, really important. So if you don't know, the Sikhs are followers of the teachings of Guru Nanak and his descendants. Guru Nanak was actually alive at the time that the first Mughal Emperor came to march down to North India and conquered India from the Delhi Sultans in 50:26. And after his death, the Sikhs are led by a succession of other gurus and some of them choose to militarize the Sikhs. The Sikhs are in conflict with the Mughals, but also other powers and sometimes amongst themselves. In early 18th century, the Sikh rulers form a number of different kingdoms of their own based around their military units or missiles. And then it's in 1799 that these missiles are united by Ranjit Singh into the Sikh empire.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's 12 missiles that combined into an empire.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So Maharaja Ranjit Singh captured Lahore in 1799. That's your big year that you wanted to sneak into the long 18th century, right?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yes. And he is alive until.

[Nish Kumar]

Wait, what year have we snuck in?

[Greg Jenner]

1799, which you know is right at the tail end, but then.

[Nish Kumar]

Oh, come on, that's in the century. It's like when a movie comes out in 1989, you're like, it's an 80s movie. It's an 80s movie.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure. But he keeps ruling for ages, right?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah. He dies in 1839 and his descendants are also on the throne for a couple more years. But that's when the East India Company sort of swoops in.

[Greg Jenner]

We'll get to that bit later, Jackie. But yeah, he's. He sort of rules for almost four decades. He's kind of parallel to, I guess, almost the beginning of Queen Victoria, isn't he? He really sort of sees a huge amount of history there. And now it's time to introd the, the cameo that we've all been waiting for into the. The story. Who am I talking about, Nish?

[Nish Kumar]

The East India Company.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes.

[Nish Kumar]

The whites are here.

[Greg Jenner]

It wasn't just actually the British, it.

[Nish Kumar]

Was the Dutch as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Right? Oh, good knowledge.

[Nish Kumar]

Yeah, yeah. There was a Dutch East India Company as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nish Kumar]

Why did none of these people have their own names?

[Greg Jenner]

There's actually several European nations who are elbowing their way in. They're not invited in. Right. So I mean, could you sort of run us through some of them?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

It all began, of course, with Vasco da Gama's famous voyage to Asia. He gets to India in 1498 and a year later he's already back in Portugal. And in the decades that follow, for much of the 16th century, the Portuguese are exploiting this new knowledge of how to get to Asia. They're creating.

Trading enterprise that runs between Portugal and Asia. Not just India, other places too. And other Europeans want to get in on the act. So that's when a group of English merchants get together and form the East India Company in 1600. And then in the Netherlands, the Dutch East India Company is created in 1602. And then there's a whole bunch of others as well. Some of them are private enterprises, some of them are state run enterprises and sometimes they're things in between.

[Greg Jenner]

One country we haven't mentioned, actually. Nish, do you want to guess? Another. Another European power.

[Nish Kumar]

Whenever you talk about European colonizers, the Belgians are always acting up.

[Greg Jenner]

Good.

[Nish Kumar]

The Belgians are always acting up. They're always gifting countries to their stupid kings. But I, I don't think there's any Belgian. I don't believe there's any Belgians that turn up in India. But obviously I could be.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

What's Not Belgium. And isn't the Netherlands the French?

[Nish Kumar]

There we go.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's the French. The French are in India, too, which is not just. It's not well known here in the uk.

[Nish Kumar]

Oh, that's why they're Pondicherry.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nish Kumar]

Right, right, right. I've been to Pondicherry. And you're like, why is this stuff in French? And you're like, why? Let's not start asking those questions because, you know, I got a British passport. I'm in trouble. If we start pulling at the thread of why are there a European influence in different parts of India?

[Greg Jenner]

There's also another European country that pops up. Quite a surprising one, these people, no offense, you've already guessed Belgium, which I thought was a pretty slightly outlandish guess, but do you want to go even more unexpected?

[Nish Kumar]

The Spanish?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, that's too sensible, I guess, arguably.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah.

[Nish Kumar]

Yeah. Oh, it's weirder than that, I think. So what does Luxembourg turn up for us?

[Greg Jenner]

Dust up charmingly. No, Denmark.

[Nish Kumar]

How does Denmark even get there?

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, I'd love to know. It's a long old commute, isn't it, all the way around. Yeah. Denmark show up. And their plan, Nish, is quite a charming one in some ways. They took advantage of the Anglo French wars and rivalry, and they offered merchants the ability to fly. What? The ability to sail under the neutral flag of Denmark so they wouldn't be attacked by either side. They were basically a maritime VPN service. But the important thing to stress, and I think you want to stress, you're a historian of trade, aren't you? I mean, the Mughal empire was already plugged into global trade networks. It's not that European powers showed up and said, oh, let's do trade.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah, it's happening before the 18th century and it's happening before the Europeans show up. So India is really plugged into trade networks in every direction. So there's the caravan routes, which I've worked on a bit, between India and Central Asia, Iran, parts of Russia. So towards the north and then going towards the west, there are all the ports in the Arab peninsula, the Red Sea region and East Africa. And then, of course, there's Siam and the Spice Islands to the east. And these are just some of the places where you either find Indian goods or you find Indian merchants. There's trade between England and India, direct trade. Once the East India Company is formed, there's lots of really exciting new research which has been not just about trade between Asia and Europe, but trade at a more global level. And the Spanish are moving goods between Asia and the New World. And what we're starting to kind of realize is that the reach of some of these goods are really global. So it's not just the rich in England who are decorating their country houses with fine Chinese wallpapers and Indian textiles and so on. It's also this, you know, kinds of cloth that are used in the transatlantic slave trade between Africa and the Americas. And Indian cloth is a medium of exchange in the transatlantic slave trade. But they're also fairly ordinary Mexicans who are buying Indian and Chinese goods.

[Greg Jenner]

Indigo is a big one, isn't it? That's. Is that going global? Indigo?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Because that's a. Oh, I've got a good story about indigo.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, go on.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

And.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, give us. Give us your.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

I don't know if it's a good story.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you've got to deliver now.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Oh, I. So indigo, it's called indigo because it comes from India.

[Nish Kumar]

You gotta go India to get it.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

There is an airline in India called.

[Nish Kumar]

Yeah.

You want indigo, you got go Indy.

So the Europeans, for listeners, I'm considered to be an intelligent comedian, so that tells you what the intellectual capacity is for the rest of my profession.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay, so indigo, yes.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Europeans are buying indigo from India in the 17th century. It's all going great. And then they decide to transplant indigo production to the Americas, so to the Carolinas, to the Caribbean. And there they quote, unquote, improve how the dye is produced. So you have to grow a plant, and then you have to turn the plant into a dye. And that, combined with other factors, puts lots of indigo production and indigo producers in India out of business. There's also, like, a terrible famine in the 17th century and all kinds of other factors. But that doesn't mean that people who are using indigo dye within Asia stop needing indigo dye. And one of the things that happens in this period is that new places start to produce indigo dye in this period. So in parts of Punjab, near Afghanistan, there are relatively new, in fact, probably entirely new indigo fields, fields planted with indigo and dye that's being produced there for the caravan trade to Afghanistan and Iran and Central Asia.

[Greg Jenner]

And the interesting thing that. I mean, I'm going to have to use the dreaded C word now. Capitalism.

The 18th century is the era in which people would often say capitalism is invented. Some would say slightly earlier. What does capitalism mean, and how is it arriving into India, or has it been there all along?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Well, we think of capitalism as this uniquely European invention, that it's something that emerges in Europe you know, these Tuscan bankers are creating banks, and that's the kind of master narrative. But one of the things we've known for quite a while now is that there are similar developments in banking and finance and trade and the market happening fairly simultaneously across Europe, but also the Middle east and parts of Asia, including India. And this is not a new development in the 18th century. This is something that has been unfurling for a long time for, you know, at least two centuries by the 18th century. But I think it comes to a kind of crescendo in the 18th century.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Two things stand out. One is that the market has really encroached people's lives much more by the 18th century. People's awareness of the value of real estate and their assets, for example, has intensified by this period. People are really fighting over them, and they're getting bits of paper signed and notarized because they know how what the market for properties, like, for example. And that's just one example. The second thing that comes to mind is the growing power of merchants and bankers. And they don't form a bourgeoisie like they do in Europe, but they are becoming more important and their relationship to the state is becoming much closer. And that's partly because of what's happening in. In India in the 18th century. So you have these new rulers, and some old rulers, too, rulers of these states who are building up their kingdoms. And what do they need? They need money. And how are they going to get money? They're going to get money by having a bureaucracy that doesn't leak money and by increasing the amount of production and trade that's happening within their kingdom. So they bring land under cultivation, they try and attract new kinds of cultivation there that maybe didn't happen previously. Try and create new trade routes, maybe have new kinds of manufacturing and merchants. And bankers are financing that. And they're also sometimes their family members are part of that bureaucracy, too.

[Greg Jenner]

And as well as banking, as well as merchants, as well as insurance firms and so on, that sort of thing. We also get another profession, beginning with M. An important profession, a beloved profession. Do you want to guess what that would be? Nishi?

[Nish Kumar]

Mirth makers. The first comedians emerged.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

There are lots of those actually in the 18th century.

[Nish Kumar]

Really?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah. I don't know if there are more, but they're definitely more prominent.

[Nish Kumar]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

No, I said beloved. So.

No mercenaries.

We get the mercenary class who show up. Nish, have you ever heard of Amir Khan?

[Nish Kumar]

But Amir Khan?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Nish Kumar]

Well, you mean the incredibly famous actor.

[Greg Jenner]

Not that one from Lagan and not the boxer either.

[Nish Kumar]

Have I heard of Aamir Khan? Of course I've heard of Aamir Khan.

[Greg Jenner]

No, this is the third most famous Aamir Khan, after the pugilist as well. Jagit, who was Aamir Khan? The Afghan mercenary. He's a big deal, right?

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Yeah. He began his rise by serving the marauders who gave him a royal title and they gave him some land that he formed into a kind of principality. He then joined the Maharaja of Jodhpur's service. Jodhpur again. But his scheming got him into trouble, which is unsurprising given that he was implicated in poisoning one of the king's favorites. And so he's expelled from Jodhpur in 1815. But he wasn't unusual. I mean, there are lots of mercenaries. There's what I've called a whole market for violence, which already exists by the 18th century. But in the 18th century, when there is all this competition over land to, you know, fashion your own kingdom and make your own state, when so much is at stake, those kinds of actors are becoming more powerful, more important. And it's not uncommon for some of them to be given land in return for their loyal service and to form principalities of their own. Making this even more complicated, this whole patchwork of different states.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, in the end it doesn't work out for him. Right.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

I think he sort of just like goes to Tonk, which is his principality, and he just retreats and has a nice retirement.

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, really?

[Nish Kumar]

Okay.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

I don't know.

[Nish Kumar]

Right, yeah. It's just you don't associate mercenaries with, like, winding down. When you hear mercenary, you don't think. Gentle retirement, getting into gardening.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

If you do, they're up to something.

[Nish Kumar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You sort of feel with mercenaries, it's probably going to end quite badly.

[Greg Jenner]

The nuance window.

Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Nish and I pull out our paintbrushes and poetry books for two minutes while Dr. Jaiji takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about India in the 18th century. My stopwatch is ready, so take it away, Dr. Jagjeet.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Well, I think what we've has become clear by now is that the 18th century was a really exciting, really dynamic time. It's full of lots of opportunities, some. Some hazards too. But this isn't how we've always seen the 18th century. And to grasp just how much our understanding has changed, I think it pays to go back to the period itself. Now, from the point of view of Mughal writers, anyone who rocked the boat was tarred as a rebel and often seen as being a ruffian from outside the Mughal order. Another important set of source materials we have on the 18th century are those histories that are written by men working for the East India Company after the colonial conquest had begun. And these writers had a vested interest in helping the Company legitimate its new spoils. And so they portrayed it as. They portrayed the Company as the font of order and peace and prosperity. That conquest would help Indians out of the chaos that supposedly reigned supreme. So these two very different groups of writers, some writing in Persian, in and around the Mughal court, those writing in English on behalf of the Company, gave us a very similar and very negative picture of the century. And that picture more or less persisted until around about the late 1970s, when historians started to turn their attention to all these new regional courts that we've been talking about. Now, the first part of this work was really about state building. It's about revenue management and so on. And it showed that these new rulers and their collaborators, like merchants and bankers, were creating a political order and islands of economic prosperity at a very regional level. More recent work in the wake of the cultural turn has focused on court culture, art, poetry, music, intellectual life, and it's shown us just how vibrant these regional centres were. What's maybe been missed in some of this is detail about the lives of fairly ordinary people and how that was changing. That kind of social history is something I've been fascinated by ever since I wrote my first book, and I'm sure the archives can tell us much more.

[Greg Jenner]

Wonderful. Two minutes on the dots. Well done. Wow, that was bang on. Yeah.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Give a lot of lectures.

[Nish Kumar]

2 minute ones.

[Greg Jenner]

Nish. Final thoughts on 18th century India. Have you.

[Nish Kumar]

This has been great. Like, this is a, you know, more often. Yeah, yeah. This is really filling in, like, a total gap in my historical knowledge and really like reframing the way I think about the sort of East India Company and even what I was saying, I think one of the things that I think is interesting about this idea of this independent sort of capitalism springing up is that even in kind of what you would identify as politically progressive history of the region, we still talk about it as we still have this, like, victim narrative around it, that Western capitalism, in cohorts with Western governments, took over these countries and we only focus on them as conquered lands, essentially, even when we're trying to write positive histories about them. And actually it really benefits to understand that there was A whole independent culture and country that was evolving and to look at it through a non European lens, even when the European lens is trying to be progressive and post colonial and anti capitalist.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you so much, Nish. Thank you so much, Ajagjeet and listener, if you want more Indian history, check out our episodes on the Mughal empire or on the history of Bollywood cinema. That was a fun one. And if you want a different perspective on the 18th century, why not listen to our episode on black people in Georgian England? And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the incredible Dr. Jagjeet Lali from UCL. Thank you, Jagjeet.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Thanks, Greg.

[Greg Jenner]

It's been an absolute hoot. And in Comedy Corner we have the fantastic Nish Kumar. Thank you, Nish.

[Nish Kumar]

Thank you very much for having me. It was very educational. I hope to remember some of it.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we shine new light on historical periods. But for now, I'm off to go and make my fortune by investing in Indigo. Hopefully I'm not hundreds of years too late.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Bye.

[Greg Jenner]

You're Dead To ME is a BBC Studios audio production production for BBC Radio 4.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Screenshot.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It gave me as an actress, just.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

What I was craving. They were both very mature as filmmakers. This was a film that spoke to.

[Ryan Seacrest]

A red state, blue state divide.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

I'm Mark Kermode.

[Greg Jenner]

And I'm Ellenie Jones.

[Mark Kermode]

And we'll direct you through the intertwined worlds of film, television and streaming.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

In the new series, we'll look at Studio Ghibli and summer blockbusters and start with cinema's fascination with doppelgangers, helped by.

[Mark Kermode]

The one and only Richard Ioadi.

[Greg Jenner]

I'd quite like to meet more Norwegian Nigerians. In fact, if there's a meeting, I'll happily attend.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Screenshot from BBC Radio 4.

[Mark Kermode]

Listen now on BBC Sounds.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

And Doug.

[Greg Jenner]

Here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

[Greg Jenner]

Liberty Savings.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Dr. Jagjeet Lali]

Excludes Massachusetts.

[Mark Kermode]

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