You're Dead To Me – "India Between Empires" (Radio Edit)

Podcast: You’re Dead To Me (BBC Radio 4)
Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: Dr. Jagjeet Lali (UCL, historian), Nish Kumar (comedian)
Date: December 8, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the political, economic, and cultural transformations of India during the long 18th century—roughly from the 1680s to the 1840s. Host Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr. Jagjeet Lali and comedian Nish Kumar to “take history seriously” while having some laughs. They unpack the complexity of Indian states before British domination, the richness of indigenous capitalism, and the arrival of various European powers, challenging simplistic, colonially-influenced narratives of chaotic decline.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Opening Banter and the “Long 18th Century”

• Historical Framing: Dr. Lali prefers a "long 18th century" (c. 1680s–1840s) to capture the dramatic transformations from Mughal expansion through the rise of regional powers and the onset of British rule.

  “I love the 18th century so much that I like to think of a really long 18th century... It’s a really exciting time of economic and cultural change and political change.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [04:33]

• Nish Kumar’s Candid Admission: Nish humorously admits to panic and limited expertise on this era, capturing the British schooling habit of skipping over periods between Mughal glory and Partition.

  “I know the white man turned up and was up to his usual malarkey.” – Nish Kumar [02:56]

Major Regional Powers after the Mughals

• The Mughal Legacy: Brief recap from Babur (1526) to Aurangzeb’s death in 1707, marking a shift from Mughal centrality to decentralized new polities.

  “We used to talk about decline quite a lot...there’s a process of change and transformation that occurs…” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [05:56]

• The Marathas: Their rise in the Deccan, led by Shivaji, demonstrates fluid alliances across faiths and the forming of new ‘chhatrapati’ dynasties.

  “These religious boundaries are becoming ossified in this period… In the end, it doesn’t really matter because what Shivaji does is he has himself coronated as a king.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [07:27]

• Rajputs: Rajput kingdoms (Udaipur/Mewar, Jodhpur, Jaipur) as tourist hotspots today, iconic for their palaces and elephants—thanks to James Bond, even!

  “Incidentally, Udaipur is where the James Bond film Octopussy was filmed...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [09:38] “The main Indian guy in Octopussy is Vijay Amritraj. He’s a tennis player.” – Nish Kumar [09:58]

• Sikh Empire: Emergence via Guru Nanak’s legacy, militarization, and ultimate unification by Ranjit Singh in 1799, briefly forming a strong regional power until British intervention.

  “At its height, the Sikh Empire reaches towards what is now called the Northwest frontier... it’s in 1799 that these missiles are united by Ranjit Singh into the Sikh empire.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [10:50; 11:58]

The Arrival of European Trading Companies

• A Crowded Field: The British weren’t alone—Portuguese, Dutch, French, and even Danes had stakes in Indian commerce.

  “It all began, of course, with Vasco da Gama’s famous voyage to Asia... for much of the 16th century, the Portuguese are exploiting this new knowledge of how to get to Asia.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [13:19] “They were basically a maritime VPN service.” – Greg Jenner on the Danish in India [15:20]

• Indian Commerce Preceded Europeans: India was already part of vast overland and maritime trade networks—linking Central Asia, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

  “India is really plugged into trade networks in every direction… there are all the ports in the Arab peninsula, the Red Sea region and East Africa … these are just some of the places where you either find Indian goods or you find Indian merchants.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [15:57]

• Fun Fact – Indigo Dye: Name comes straight from “India”; the story of its cultivation and global spread, from Indian fields to South Carolina plantations—highlighting early globalisation and exploitation.

  “Oh, I've got a good story about indigo… it’s called indigo because it comes from India.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [17:32]
  “You want indigo, you got go Indy.” – Nish Kumar [17:51]

Capitalism Before the British

• Challenging the “Capitalism came with the British” Trope: Banking, finance, property markets, and merchant power were well-established—and sometimes more innovatively so—before British domination.

  “One of the things we've known for quite a while now is that there are similar developments in banking and finance and trade and the market happening fairly simultaneously across Europe, but also the Middle east and parts of Asia, including India.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [19:28]

• Merchants, Bankers, Bureaucrats: New rulers (and old ones) relied on financiers and merchants to build states, increase production, and expand trade, calling forth a new capitalist dynamism.

  “People's awareness of the value of real estate and their assets, for example, has intensified by this period. People are really fighting over them...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [20:10]

Warriors for Hire: Mercenaries and Violence Markets

• The Market for Violence: Professional soldiers (mercenaries) like Amir Khan became regional power-brokers, trading loyalty and force for land and titles.

  “There's what I've called a whole market for violence, which already exists by the 18th century... it's not uncommon for some of them to be given land in return for their loyal service and to form principalities of their own.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [22:32]

• Unexpected Retirement: Sometimes, mercenaries “retired” to their own domains—a twist on popular expectations.

  "You don't associate mercenaries with, like, winding down. When you hear mercenary, you don't think gentle retirement, getting into gardening." – Nish Kumar [23:38]

[24:01] The Nuance Window – Historians Rethink the 18th Century

• Changing Perspectives: Two sources shaped the “chaos and decline” narrative—Mughal chroniclers and British colonial writers, both seeking to legitimize their power.
• Revisionism Since the 1970s: Focus shifted to the dynamism of new regional courts; “islands of economic prosperity” and vibrant cultural life emerged. The social history of ordinary people, though, remains underexplored.

  “These two very different groups of writers... gave us a very similar and very negative picture of the century. And that picture more or less persisted until around about the late 1970s, when historians started to turn their attention to all these new regional courts that we've been talking about...and it showed...islands of economic prosperity at a very regional level…” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [24:17] “More recent work in the wake of the cultural turn has focused on court culture, art, poetry, music, intellectual life, and it’s shown us just how vibrant these regional centres were...” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [26:00] “What’s maybe been missed…is detail about the lives of fairly ordinary people and how that was changing.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [26:09]

[26:27] Final Reflections

• Nish’s Takeaway: Recognizes the need to see 18th-century India as a space of independent agency, not just passive victim of colonialism or capitalism.

  “Even when we're trying to write positive histories…we still have this victim narrative around it… it really benefits to understand that there was a whole independent culture and country that was evolving and to look at it through a non-European lens.” – Nish Kumar [27:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dutch/French/Danish Competition:
  “Why did none of these people have their own names?” – Nish Kumar [13:07]
• On Indo-European Economic Ties:
  “They were basically a maritime VPN service.” – Greg Jenner [15:20]
• Comedy on Indigo's Etymology:
  “You want indigo, you got go Indy.” – Nish Kumar [17:51]
• Mercenaries and their Surprising Destinies:
  “If you do [see a mercenary retire to gardening], they're up to something.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [23:47]
• Rethinking India’s Agency Pre-Empire:
  “Capitalism…comes to a kind of crescendo in the 18th century.” – Dr. Jagjeet Lali [19:28]

Key Timestamps

• Intro to Guests & Purpose: [01:10]
• “So What Do You Know?”—Cultural Memories & Gaps: [03:39]
• Long 18th Century & Power Shifts: [04:33]–[09:10]
• European Powers & Indian Global Trade: [13:19]–[17:29]
• Indigo & Globalisation: [17:29]–[19:12]
• Capitalism & Indian Innovation: [19:17]–[21:34]
• Mercenaries & New Political Orders: [22:02]–[23:36]
• The Nuance Window–Changing Historiography: [24:01]–[26:13]
• Final Thoughts on Framing Indian History: [26:27]–[28:03]

Tone and Style

As always, the episode mixes expert scholarship with wit and relatable pop culture references. Nish brings gentle self-deprecation and sharp asides; Dr. Lali delivers concise, nuanced history; Greg Jenner steers with energy and inclusive curiosity.

Summary Takeaway

This episode busts the myth of a “chaotic decline” before British rule, presenting 18th-century India as a place of vibrant change, complex politics, dynamic economy, and lively cultural innovation—rich with agency, not just passivity in the face of empire.

If you want to rethink the narrative of India before the Raj, this episode delivers entertainment and real historical depth in equal measure.