"Justinian and Theodora" – You're Dead to Me (BBC Radio 4)

Host: Greg Jenner
Guests: (Unnamed comedian and historian performers; script consultant: Professor Peter Frankopan)
Date: January 1, 2026
Episode Length: ~15 minutes

Episode Overview

This lively episode of "You're Dead to Me" explores the dramatic lives and reign of Justinian and Theodora, the legendary 6th-century power couple who ruled the Byzantine Empire. With the trademark mix of historical expertise and comedic riffing, Greg Jenner and his guests examine how a pig farmer's nephew and a bear-trainer's daughter rose to become the empire’s most influential monarchs, overseeing major legal reforms, surviving deadly riots, and leaving a legacy that shaped European law and society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Was the Byzantine Empire?

[01:13–02:04]

• The Byzantine Empire: Eastern half of the Roman Empire, covering Greece, the Middle East, and Egypt, lasting from the 4th to 15th centuries.
• The Western half fell to various "thrash metal band"-like tribes: Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths.
• Capital city: Constantinople, known as "New Rome" (now Istanbul) and home to the Hagia Sophia.

2. Justinian's Humble Origins and Rise to Power

[02:28–03:03]

• Justinian born c. 480 CE in the Balkans, son of a pig farmer’s family.
• His uncle, Justin, rises through the military ranks to become emperor in 518 CE.
• Justinian moves to Constantinople, initially engaging in the city’s most popular sport: chariot racing.

3. Who Was Theodora?

[03:27–04:16]

• Theodora: Daughter of a bear trainer, performer, and later an actress in scandalous roles.
• She gained insight into politics, religion, and court life while working as a professional companion to imperial elites.
• Famous for a risqué performance involving geese.

4. A Byzantine Meet-Cute and Unconventional Romance

[04:16–05:25]

• Justinian and Theodora allegedly met at the Hippodrome during chariot races, described humorously as a "rom-com meet cute" with bones being broken.
• Justinian—by law—not allowed to marry an actress.

Notable quote:
"As wedding presents go, changing the law is a bit extra. My uncle just gave me an air fryer." — Greg Jenner [05:46]

5. From Outsiders to Co-Emperors

[05:27–06:43]

• Justinian persuades Uncle Justin to change the law so he can marry Theodora; they wed in 525 CE.
• Justinian appointed co-emperor in April 527 CE; Uncle Justin dies four months later, leaving Justinian as ruler.

6. Ruling Together: Legal and Social Reforms

[07:03–08:09]

• Justinian and Theodora overhaul the legal code ("Code of Justinian" or "Corpus Juris Civilis"), a foundation for modern European law.
• Theodora champions laws improving women’s rights and imposing harsher penalties for abuse against women.
• Greg quips about bureaucratic reforms being "exciting".

Notable quote:
"Babe, you're smart, powerful, attractive. Just like my dead uncle." — Justinian (comedic actor) [08:09]
"Okay, you've really gotta stop saying that." — Theodora (comedic actor) [08:15]

7. Riots & Political Crisis: The Nika Riots

[08:49–10:20]

• Chariot racing teams ("Blues" and "Greens") merge and attempt to overthrow Justinian in the devastating Nika riots.
• Justinian panics, but Theodora urges him to stay and fight rather than flee.

Notable quote:
"At the moment of desperate danger, one must do what one can. Every man born to see the light of day must die. But that one who has been emperor should become an exile, it cannot be." — Theodora, quoting Procopius [09:58]

• Historian Procopius (dubiously) claims Justinian “walked around without a head”.
• Greg debunks this: "Justinian definitely had a head." [10:39]

8. Military Victories & Restoring the Empire

[11:06–11:56]

• Justinian launches campaigns to reclaim lost Roman territories (defeating the Vandals and Ostrogoths, reclaiming Rome in 537 CE).
• Secures a truce with Persia in 545 CE.
• The episode playfully narrates "Battle of the Bands" against rival tribes.

9. Theodora’s Death and Legacy

[12:15–13:01]

• Theodora dies in 548 CE; her parting words, comedically, are "teamwork makes the dream work".
• Justinian rules alone till 565 CE, succeeded by his nephew Justin.
• The family tradition continued: Justin’s wife was Theodora’s niece.

10. Theodora Sainthood & Lasting Impact

[13:27+ ]

• Theodora eventually canonized as a saint.
• Justinian honored her as "our most pious consort, given us by God".
• Both came from humble backgrounds—pig farming and circus performance—but left an enduring legacy.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:22] "Horse drawn chariots. And this is where we meet Theodora." — Greg Jenner
• [05:46] "As wedding presents go, changing the law is a bit extra. My uncle just gave me an air fryer." — Greg Jenner
• [08:09] "Babe, you're smart, powerful, attractive. Just like my dead uncle." — Justinian (actor)
• [09:58] "But that one who has been emperor should become an exile, it cannot be." — Theodora (quoting Procopius)
• [10:39] "Justinian definitely had a head." — Greg Jenner

Important Timestamps

• 01:13–02:04 – What is the Byzantine Empire?
• 02:28–03:03 – Justinian’s origins and rise
• 03:27–04:16 – Theodora’s childhood and background
• 04:16–05:25 – Justinian & Theodora’s romance
• 05:27–06:43 – Law-changing marriage; rise to power
• 07:03–08:09 – Legal and social reforms; women’s rights
• 08:49–10:20 – Nika Riots and Theodora's leadership
• 11:06–11:56 – Military conquests and reclaiming Rome
• 12:15–13:01 – Theodora’s death and Justinian’s legacy
• 13:27–14:09 – Theodora as a saint; episode recap quiz

Tone and Style

Playful, witty, and full of puns and historical banter; the episode mixes straightforward history with dramatized, comedic exchanges between the historical figures—recasting them as a “rom-com power couple.”

Key Takeaways

• Justinian and Theodora began life on society’s fringes but rose to become the Byzantine Empire’s ultimate power couple.
• Their co-rule brought significant legal, social, and military reforms—many with long-lasting effects.
• The Nika Riots nearly ended their reign, but Theodora’s bravery and wisdom saved the day.
• Their legacy endured through law, architecture (like the Hagia Sophia), and even sainthood—in Theodora's case.

For further listening: The episode recommends “You’re Dead to Me” with Professor Peter Frankopan for a more grown-up, in-depth exploration of Justinian and Theodora.