Minoan Civilisation (Radio Edit)

Summary

"You're Dead to Me" Podcast Summary: Minoan Civilization (Radio Edit)

Podcast Information:

• Title: You're Dead to Me
• Host/Author: BBC Radio 4
• Episode: Minoan Civilization (Radio Edit)
• Release Date: November 1, 2024
• Description: The comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Greg Jenner brings together the best names in comedy and history to learn and laugh about the past.

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Introduction to the Episode

In the November 1, 2024 episode of "You're Dead to Me", host Greg Jenner delves into the fascinating world of the Minoan Civilization of Bronze Age Crete. Joining him are esteemed guests Dr. Steve Kershaw, a lecturer from Oxford University’s Department for Continuing Education, and comedian Josie Long. Together, they unravel the myths and realities of one of the ancient world’s most intriguing societies.

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Unveiling the Legend: Theseus and the Minotaur

The conversation kicks off with a discussion of the legendary tales associated with the Minoans, notably the story of Theseus and the Minotaur. Dr. Steve Kershaw provides a concise summary:

Dr. Steve Kershaw [04:00]: "The Minotaur was a half-man, half-bull creature confined in the labyrinth beneath King Minos's palace in Knossos. Theseus, aided by Ariadne's thread, navigated the maze and defeated the beast."

Josie Long adds a humorous twist to the myth, likening it to a combination of Hansel and Gretel and a cow story, highlighting the blend of horror and adventure in Minoan legends.

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Arthur Evans and the Discovery of Knossos

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Arthur Evans, the archaeologist credited with uncovering the Minoan civilization. Dr. Kershaw explains Evans's pivotal role:

Greg Jenner [07:00]: "Arthur Evans excavated Knossos in the early 20th century, unearthing artifacts that led him to envision a sophisticated Minoan society comparable to Egypt's grandeur."

Evans's controversial methods, especially his extensive reconstructions using reinforced concrete, are discussed. This approach has sparked debates on whether Evans discovered the Minoans or inadvertently invented them through his interpretations.

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Minoan Society: Art, Writing, and Matriarchy

The guests delve into the rich cultural tapestry of the Minoans. Dr. Kershaw highlights their exceptional craftsmanship:

Greg Jenner [13:00]: "Minoans excelled in pottery, frescoes, and terracotta figurines. Their art, characterized by vibrant colors and intricate designs, provides invaluable insights into their daily lives and religious practices."

The discussion moves to Minoan writing systems, Linear A and Cretan Hieroglyphics, which remain undeciphered, adding an element of mystery to their civilization. In contrast, Linear B, later adapted by the Mycenaeans, is identifiable as an early form of Greek.

Josie Long humorously speculates on Minoan fashion based on artistic depictions:

Josie Long [15:30]: "People were probably thrilled to show their boobs to one another. The dresses were quite revealing!"

While playful, this comment segues into a more serious analysis of the role of women in Minoan society. Dr. Kershaw suggests that the prominence of women in Minoan art indicates a possible matriarchal structure:

Greg Jenner [15:20]: "Women are very prominent in Minoan art, participating in initiation ceremonies and other societal events, which might imply they held significant social and possibly political power."

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Cultural Practices: Bull Leaping and Seafaring

One of the most iconic aspects of Minoan culture discussed is bull leaping. Dr. Kershaw describes it as both an entertainment and a ritualistic activity:

Greg Jenner [18:00]: "Bull leaping appears frequently in Minoan art, suggesting it was a popular form of entertainment or possibly an initiation rite for young men."

The guests also explore the Minoans' prowess in shipbuilding and their extensive trade networks:

Greg Jenner [19:40]: "Minoans were exceptional seafarers, establishing colonies like Kithera and engaging in trade with the Greek islands, Egypt, and the Near East."

Josie Long humorously muses about the durability of Minoan ships:

Josie Long [20:10]: "They could have been lying about their shipbuilding skills, but their ships depicted in frescoes are undeniably beautiful."

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Economy and Daily Life

The economy of Minoan Crete was diverse, involving farming, animal husbandry, and artisan crafts. Greg Jenner elaborates on their agricultural practices:

Greg Jenner [17:20]: "Minoans cultivated olives, grapes, and various vegetables. They produced cheese and wine, essential for both sustenance and trade."

Josie Long adds a comedic perspective on daily life, imagining a Minoan household’s archaeological remains:

Josie Long [09:48]: "If archaeologists dug up my house, they'd think we were a lot messier than we are."

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Religion and Belief Systems

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding Minoan religion. Dr. Kershaw discusses the double axe symbol (labrys) and the prominent female deities depicted in their art:

Greg Jenner [22:28]: "The double axe is a recurring symbol, often associated with Minoan priestesses, indicating the society's potential matriarchal elements."

The existence of peak sanctuaries and cave sanctuaries suggests a dual focus on sky and earth in their religious practices:

Greg Jenner [23:00]: "These sanctuaries hosted clay figurines, offerings, and possibly rituals involving feasting and drinking."

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The Decline of the Minoan Civilization

The episode addresses the mysterious end of the Minoans. Dr. Kershaw outlines the primary theories:

1. Natural Disasters: The Santorini eruption (circa 1625 BC), though slightly earlier than the Minoans' decline (circa 1450 BC), may have contributed to long-term destabilization.
2. Internal Rebellion: Possible internal unrest and resistance against centralized power structures.
3. Mycenaean Invasion: The arrival and dominance of the Mycenaeans from the Greek mainland.

Greg Jenner [24:24]: "The fall of the Minoans was likely a gradual process influenced by natural catastrophes, internal strife, and external invasions."

Josie Long reflects on the legacy of the Minoans, appreciating their cultural achievements despite their eventual decline:

Josie Long [25:56]: "They had a good run, especially for a relatively small island."

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The Nuance Window: Reflecting on Archaeological Interpretation

In the episode's Nuance Window, Greg Jenner and Josie Long contemplate the nature of archaeological interpretation:

Greg Jenner [26:38]: "Archaeologists often create the past in their own image. The stones and bones we excavate need interpreters, meaning our understanding is shaped by our contemporary perspectives."

Josie Long agrees, emphasizing the blend of mystery and the desire for knowledge:

Josie Long [28:32]: "We tell stories about ourselves when we interpret the past. It's both thrilling and frustrating because so much remains hidden."

Dr. Kershaw adds a poetic closing thought:

Greg Jenner [28:28]: "History and archaeology are beautiful because they tell us as much about ourselves as they do about the people we study."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with gratitude towards the guests and a humorous sign-off, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation of the Minoan Civilization and the complexities involved in uncovering its history. The blend of scholarly insight and comedic banter ensures that both history enthusiasts and casual listeners find the discussion engaging and informative.

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Notable Quotes:

• Josie Long [09:48]: "If archaeologists dug up my house, they'd think we were a lot messier than we are."
• Greg Jenner [15:20]: "Women are very prominent in Minoan art, participating in initiation ceremonies and other societal events, which might imply they held significant social and possibly political power."
• Greg Jenner [26:38]: "Archaeologists often create the past in their own image."

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This summary encapsulates the rich discussions and insights shared by Greg Jenner, Dr. Steve Kershaw, and Josie Long, offering listeners a comprehensive overview of the Minoan Civilization while maintaining an engaging and accessible narrative.

Transcript

[Greg Jenner]

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[Josie Long]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Welcome to you're Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are sailing all the way back to Bronze Age Crete to to learn about the ancient Minoan civilization and to help us mine truth from Minotaur Myth. We have two very special guests in History Corner. He's a lecturer at Oxford University's Department for Continuing Education. His research includes classical mythology and history. He's the author of several books including Mythologica, a fantastic illustrated children's encyclopedia of Greek myths. It's very lovely and you'll remember him from our episode All About Atlantis. It's not real. It's Dr. Steve Kershaw. Welcome back, Steve.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be back.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, broadcast and author. You will know her from Radio 4's Shortcuts, eight out of 10 cats. Maybe you've read her books, including the recent short story collection, because I don't know what you mean and what you don't. But you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Medieval Science, it's Josie Long. Welcome back, Josie.

[Josie Long]

Thank you. Thanks for having me back. And cannot tell you how heartbroken I was by just the casual Atlantis didn't exist. Oh, no. Brutal.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I know you as famously brainy, you're a big book reader, but are you a gold star student when it comes to the Bronze Age?

[Josie Long]

Absolutely not. However, I feel that I have some little crumbs to cling to. But then I feel like I learned last time that those crumbs will not serve me well. Like, even as you said, like, minor to a myth. So I was like, okay, we won't mention that. All of the stuff that was going on around that time, yeah, I find very exciting. But I wouldn't say that I like. I'm glad you're here, Steve. I think that's the main vibe.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm glad you're here, too.

[Josie Long]

Thank you.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you might know the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur, set in the huge labyrinth under Minoan Crete. That's where the word labyrinth comes from. You'll perhaps know the story of Icarus and his dad escaping the island, flying too close to the sun. Very sad. But what's the truth behind the Minos myth? What was life really like back in the Bronze Age on Crete? And why might their fashion choices raise a few eyebrows now? Let's find out. Josie, do you know when in history the Minoans were hanging about on Crete?

[Josie Long]

Okay, if I had to guess, I would say it was 6,000 years ago.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Slightly too early.

[Josie Long]

Oh, too early. Damn. I was going to say 5,000 years ago. And then my brain was like, push it so big. 5,000 years ago.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

5,000, I think, is the start, right, Steve?

[Greg Jenner]

That's what we're getting there. Yeah, we're getting there. So they first sort of emerge around 3000 BC, and they last to about 1450.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So they emerge at roughly the same time as dynastic Egypt.

[Josie Long]

Yes. Okay.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

As a kid, did you ever learn about the mine at all?

[Josie Long]

Oh, absolutely.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Do you want to summarize it for us?

[Josie Long]

Yeah, of course. Oh, God, no. Okay. Underneath this palace of King Minos Knossos, there's like a labyrinth.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yeah.

[Josie Long]

And then at the bottom of it, the Minotaur. And the Minotaur is half man, half bull, and it's this horrendous beast. And the person is able to survive it by keeping this red thread and following back out the puzzle. So it's like very much a kind of Hansel and Gretel meets a cow story.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Good job, Josie Long. Steve, what did Josie miss out?

[Greg Jenner]

Totally excellent. There's this guy, King Minos, and he's this sort of mythical king of Crete. He's the son of Zeus and Europa. He wanted to be king, but there was a dispute going on, and he prayed to the God Poseidon support him and said, will you send a bull from the sea? And he did. And which is wonderful, but Minos couldn't bring himself to sacrifice the bull after he'd done this, which he really should have done that. So as revenge, Poseidon actually made Minos wife, who was called Pasiphae, fall in lust with the bull. What you get now is she gave birth to a sort of cute little baby Minotaur that then grew up into this most obscene beast. And it was at this point that Minos decided that we need to shut this beast away. So he had Daedalus build this labyrinth, which is this underground structure that was so complicated you could get in, but you could never get out. Minos kind of. He had a big sea empire and he had a son who was killed by the Athenians. And so as revenge, he wanted compensation. So he demanded the Athenians should send him seven young men and seven young women, either every year or every nine years, it varies. The Minotaur was eating Athenian young people on a regular basis until the Athenian prince Theseus volunteered to go and he defeated the Minotaur. He was helped by Minos daughter, who was called Ariadne the Web. She's the one who gave him the thread. And so that he could get down into the. Into the labyrinth, he could kill the Minotaur and he could find his way out.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

And then that's what people knew about ancient Crete until about the year 1900 or so, isn't it? And doing a lot of heavy lifting there. That's some serious storytelling, really.

[Greg Jenner]

Right at the end of the 19th century. There's a. In the year 1878, 1879, there's a Cretan archaeologist whose name is Minos. His first name is Minos Destiny Minos Kalokyrinos, he's called. And he excavated. He was doing some excavations at the palace, as they called it, at Knossos, which is on the north side of Crete. And what he found was some, what they call pithoi, huge ceramic storage jars that. That he then sent out to various museums. This excited everybody's interest, and all of a sudden, archaeologists really, really wanted to know more about this palace. Everybody wants to have a bit of the action. The most important one really is Arthur Evans. He's the keeper of the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford. He was shown the site by this guy Kalikarinos in 1894, and he put his money where his mouth is. He bought the site.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Wow.

[Greg Jenner]

In 1900, there'd been a huge war between the Turks and the Cretans, as the Cretans won their independence from the Ottomans. But he bought the site and he started to dig. Sadly for Kallikarinos, he kind of gets edited out of the story in a way, and Evans takes over as the main character. But so Evans is the guy who really takes over and becomes the man who the story is built around.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So, Arthur Evans, why has he put his money where his mouth is?

[Greg Jenner]

Initially, his main interest, to start with, was in ancient writing scripts. Actually, he wasn't necessarily seeking what he found, but what he did find was this kind of, as he saw it, this European high civilization that was something that could rival those great civilizations of Egypt and the Near East. And it's him, really, who gives the name to these people as well. He based it on the name of King Minos. So it raises this fantastic question, I think that's often asked, is whether Arthur Evans discovered the Minoans or whether he invented them.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Ooh, we'll call them Minoans for today.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

But, Josie, if in 4,000 years time, archaeologists dig up your house and it's the definitive house that represents the 21st century, what are they going to call our society?

[Josie Long]

Well, the main thing is, for me is that I'm going to really get myself, my body in some silt. If I'm not lying in some silt, I will have deteriorated. I'm not taking that risk. And then I'll do some things to, like, mess with them. So I'll, like, steal a helmet from the British Museum and I'll hold an iPad. So they'll be like, who were these people, the Josephines? Were they warriors? And I'll be preserved. So they'll be like, oh, this woman. I know that they'll be mean about me. Like, I know they'll be like, oh, Grandma was at the end of her life, you know, And I know I'll have to just sort of deal with that. If it was my flat particularly, they would think that we were a lot messier than we are collectively. They'd be like. They didn't store clothes. They kept them all over the floor. They didn't clean.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So today we're gonna try and pin some reality onto the myths. Sir Arthur Evans was trying to do that, but he had some quite controversial techniques. Do you know what he did at Knossos? That is very. Well, controversial is the word, actually, in terms of his archaeological techniques?

[Josie Long]

No, I don't at all.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Have you ever visited? Have you ever been?

[Josie Long]

I have. I think I've been to Crete. So I. Yes, I have. My main memory was that I was far too warm the whole time. But, no, I don't know what he would have done controversially. I can guess, like, from the era that maybe he stole everything.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Maybe he stole in the British Museum.

[Josie Long]

He touched it all, you know, he picked it up, he smashed it. I don't know.

[Greg Jenner]

So, I mean, they needed to preserve it. After they dug it, they really. They wanted to preserve it, so they ultimately reconstituted it. That was his word. They reconstructed it using reinforced concrete. So they did that. And they also reconstructed a lot of the frescoes and figurines that had been found on site as well. So fundamentally, he was, in a way, creating his vision of what Knossos was.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Let's deconstruct the reconstruction. What did Minos Kallacherinos and Arthur Evans find originally?

[Greg Jenner]

A lot of the archaeological sites, a number of them, anyway, on Crete, are what they called palaces. And Evans saw it kind of as the seat of a dynasty of priest kings. It's more likely that you've got groups of elites here who are perhaps in competition with each other, particularly in the early periods. So some kind of centralized authority, probably. But what exactly that looks like and how it's constituted is a bit elusive. But there were other largeish towns, smaller towns, villages, country houses, ports as well, of course, because these people were seafarers. Right? Great seafarers.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

You said Arthur Evans was interested in ancient texts and writing systems.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, he was.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So was he attracted by writing systems first?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. And we have Minoans writing, you know. The trouble is that we can't decipher it. And we don't know what language it was.

[Josie Long]

Is that still now?

[Greg Jenner]

Still now? Yeah.

[Josie Long]

That's a puzzle to solve. Somebody was solving.

[Greg Jenner]

Awesome. But people are trying to solve it all the time. There's two main scripts that they use. There's a thing called Cretan hieroglyphics and a script, linear A. I've heard of linear B. Yes. Linear B was written on Crete, but it comes in later that we can translate and we know all about. And it was Greek. It was an early form of Greek. But what the linear A was, we don't know.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It's all Greek.

[Greg Jenner]

So it was. Yeah, absolutely. It was all Greek to them. All Greek to the Minoans.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

What else are we going on? So Josie mentioned pots.

[Greg Jenner]

They do pots exceptionally well and in quantity. You know, they. And so it gives us so much information. I think they're wonderful ceramicists. They make figurines as well out of terracotta and a bit of bronze and clay that are very often sort of. Sort of votive offerings that you find in sanctuaries and things like that.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Votive to the gods, presumably.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, absolutely. And they also do frescoes, and, boy, do they do a good fresco. They really do really distinctive color palette that they use in red and yellow and black and white. And, you know, it's a difficult technique. You've got to paint it onto wet plastic plaster and work very quickly with.

[Josie Long]

It, which a lot survives.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it survives very well, actually, because it applied to the walls and it sticks and it doesn't degrade.

[Josie Long]

So when they uncovered it, they uncovered, like, whole walls and. Whole walls, yes.

[Greg Jenner]

Or actually in bits and fragments and bits and pieces. Very beautiful world that they portray.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

How do you think the Minoan society treated women?

[Josie Long]

I'm going to go on a real limb and say badly. I feel like the evidence for. And I would say the past and, let's be real, the present, you would err on the side of badly. But I feel like now you're going to be like, surprise. Well, I would say badly.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Without wishing to be the mansplaining dude. Well, actually, that was a good time.

[Greg Jenner]

The position of women in Minnown society and their art particularly, has certainly invites the idea that they might have been quite powerful and quite well accommodated and treated within society. They are very prominent in the art. Women everywhere in the. In the art. We have, you know, wonderful frescoes showing initiation ceremonies and sort of all. All female events, to the point where some scholars have suggested that this society may have been a Matriarchy, it's, you know, it's kind of one of the things that we like to believe. You know, I think it's hard to make that idea stick. You know, I think the.

[Josie Long]

The more I'm hearing about them, the more I like them.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, you know, it's, you know, whether the, you know, the prominence of women in the arts and the ritual and the religion transfers to political and social power is another question. Of course. And those categories might be ours as well. They might not have had those same categories.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

There's an awful lot of art which is really lovely. And that art can then also tell us about fashion. What haute couture outfits would be imagining for, you know, Cretan Vogue?

[Josie Long]

I would have to guess. A lot of weaving, a lot of things dyed for the dyed. Weft, of course. Feathers. Seabird feathers.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Nice.

[Josie Long]

That's what you're getting. You're getting things from the mountains, so maybe you're getting kind of a papyrus style thing. I mean, you're really asking the wrong person. I don't even know what's fashionable now. I feel like it's a big leap.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Well, let's show you some. Some art from the period showing you both men and women's fashion.

[Greg Jenner]

Okay.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

What can you see?

[Josie Long]

Well, I will say. Yeah, people really. Absolutely getting their boobs out. There's no other way to say it. There's. The dresses are just people, I suppose, people thrilled to show their boobs to one another. The dress is going under the boob. And you know what? Maybe they were a happier society for it. I see people dressed in ways that you think. What this does suggest is it could be just one historian having a bit of a laugh.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Okay, so we've talked about fashion taste. Let's talk about actual taste. What are the Minoans eating back in the Bronze Age? I mean. Actually, I'll ask you, Josie, what's your guess?

[Josie Long]

Are you gonna go, honey? That's what I know about Greek islands. A lot of honey, thyme grown thyme, and rosemary on the hillside. Lovely, lovely. You'd have lambs. I hear loads about sheep in Greek myths. I mean, that's enough, isn't it? You look. What else do you have in Greece if you go, oh, I love fish salads, bit of salad, bit of feta, tzatziki.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I don't know.

[Josie Long]

Good time flatbreads.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yes, it sounds lovely, Steve.

[Greg Jenner]

All of the above.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

They're eating pulses and loads of veg. As you say, olives, meat, fish. Not as much fish as you might oh, really? Imagine so it seems from an island people, but they're growing grapes and of course they're making wine. So you need to preserve your fingertude, so you make cheese, you can preserve your milk, so you make wine, you can preserve your grapes. And they drink wine that's flavored with toasted oak, so it's like oaky Chardonnays. And also they use pine resin.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Oh.

[Greg Jenner]

So it's retina. The retina they drink. Concrete now is a direct throwback to Minoan times. Fantastic.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

And medicinal.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, medicinal stuff. They grow poppies as well. For medicinal purposes. And possibly medicinal purposes. Yeah. A religious inverted God.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Opioids and wine. Sounds like the Minoans are party people.

[Josie Long]

They'Re for the craz great time.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So the opal, whiskey and wine is probably why they are playing some quite dangerous games with the local livestock. Jose, have you got any ideas what I'm talking about here?

[Josie Long]

Is it like bullfighting? Is it like jumping on bulls?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It literally is. Well done. Absolutely. It's not. It's jumping over bulls, it's. It's bull leaping. And, Steve, you can talk us through the bull leaping.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, it's extraordinary. It seems to be a really popular kind of entertainment, or perhaps again, a ritual activity as a sort of initiation thing. So maybe a seasonal thing, you know, with young men netting and subduing bulls and then performing feats of athleticism and jumping over them and possibly sacrificing and eating the bull when you've done, of course. But bull leaping is everywhere in their art, again, on frescoes and in ivories and bronzes and whatever. They love a bit of bull leaping.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I mean, in terms of jobs on this island, then, Steve? I mean, we've heard about a slightly rural economy, but quite large urban centres. We must have some LinkedIn profiles for CA bull farmers, bull wranglers and fresco painters. That much we know. What other things we know about the economy or about crafts or what are they doing?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes. So the people are working, obviously. They're farming and animal husbandry and that kind of thing. There is an urban population with artisans who are producing all these ceramics and they trade. They're an island people.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

This is a Bronze Age society. Is there any metal on the island?

[Greg Jenner]

Not to speak of. They would need to import metal there to make their bronze. There's no tin, for instance, there's no gold. So they're not rich in minerals, but they're rich in agricultural material and what have you. And as I say, they're great seafarers and they're in contact with these other societies within what's now the Greek islands, but also with Egypt and the Near East.

[Josie Long]

And they're not isolated.

[Greg Jenner]

No, far from it. This world is an incredibly interconnected world, I think much more interconnected than we naturally assume. Everybody's in touch with everybody else on a very regular basis.

[Josie Long]

Did people move?

[Greg Jenner]

The Minoans colonized, for sure, that they. The settlement on Kithera is a colony, for instance, so that's.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

And great shipbuilders.

[Greg Jenner]

They're wonderful shipbuilders. Again, the ships appear on the. On the frescoes. Beautifully constructed ships. And now sort of, you know, sort of experimental archaeologists have made Minoan ships and they. They sail them around the harbor at Chania.

[Josie Long]

But they could have been lying. They could have just been like, yeah, just do a really good shit. Yeah, we did that. Yeah, that could have been aspirational for them. Like, one day someone will jump on a bull.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Aim high. Famously, archaeologists, we're often finding trash and we're often finding dead people. So what do we know about Minoan funerary practices? Do they cremate? Do they bury?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, they bury. I mean, they. Some of the earlier burials are sort of circular stone constructions. They call it a tholos, a round building. It's called a tholos or tholoi in plural. And they build these circular stone tholoi that generally sort of face away from the settlements there. You don't want the dead coming back, you know, that's not what we need.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I love the idea of the dead come back, but they don't know which way to look.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely.

[Josie Long]

They're like, oh, I guess I'll go back to being dead, then. Yeah.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Zombies wandering off.

[Josie Long]

That's right.

[Greg Jenner]

So. And it looks like many of these chambers are used and reused. They get looted, of course, which is a problem for the archaeology. So it's hard to reconstruct the practices exactly, but it seems like they would lay the dead on the floor with their possessions and some food. Perhaps after the body is decomposed, then the bones could be transferred to an ossuary. It may be that you're worshiping your ancestors. A wide range of ritual activity, I think, often marking, you know, life stage transitions. So, you know, so birth, puberty, marriage, parenthood, death.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

So there's also the double axe symbol that shows up a lot, isn't it?

[Greg Jenner]

That's right. Lots and lots and lots of these double axes. It's called a labrus and named after labyrinth in the religion. Like labyrinth.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

You find lots of Them tiny little gold ones, huge, great bronze ones for far, far too big, too, to use.

[Josie Long]

It's kind of a symbol.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, symbol. And very often associated with the sort of Minoan priestesses as well. They look to the sky and they look to the earth. So they have what they call peak sanctuaries on mountaintops, which are where they have clay figurines as offerings and tablets and jewelry and that kind of thing. And then they have. So they have cave sanctuaries as well. So you have up into the sky and they have down into the earth, where there may be sort of feasting and drinking rituals.

[Josie Long]

What was their belief system? What do we know? Because to my mind, obviously, because Crete is now part of Greece, it's tied in a bit with it. But was it always very separate? Like, how does it work?

[Greg Jenner]

Much so the one may have kind of evolved into the other, but there's a. There's a very prominent, if you like, female deity. You get a lot of these sort of epiphany scenes of a female deity sort of coming down and perhaps being summoned down, who they think is perhaps the great goddess. And she repeatedly appears in the art. So she may be kind of a mother goddess or a mistress of the animals or a sort of guardian of the cities, that kind of thing. Whether she is one goddess or she has multiple aspects, and there's a whole pantheon of these is difficult. Evans wanted it to be one deity because he wanted them to be monotheistic.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

We need to talk about the end of the Minoans because they very often get folded into our previous episodes. So Atlantis. So often people are like. People on the Internet love to tell me the Minoan civilization was wiped out by the Atlantis flood. Yeah, what do we know?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, I mean, they will like to tell you that, but it's much more nuanced than that, really. So roughly, I mean, we can bicker about dates, but roughly 1450 BC, you see at the end of the neo palatial period, buildings being destroyed by fire and not being rebuilt, and cultural changes coming in on the island, what they call warrior burials, and the introduction of this linear B script, which is a form of Greek. And there's various possibilities, one of which could be this natural catastrophe. So the great eruption on Santorini, but the dates are problematical. That's probably around 1625 BC. So it's a long time before. It's like saying that the eruption of Krakatoa is causing something to happen now. Yeah, it may be that we have internal unrest, rebellion on the island against the central power, maybe to do with a natural disaster as well, but that's a possibility. And then there is a possibility of takeover. An invasion by Mycenaeans from the mainland. So those are the three theories and possibilities. Maybe you could combine all three. That pretty much is what brings the Minoans to an end. It's more of a process than an instantaneous.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It's not an overnight tsunami, is it?

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, no, it's. It's not.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

In your face, Atlanteans. Sorry.

[Josie Long]

Yeah, they had a good run.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

They had a good run.

[Greg Jenner]

They did, yeah.

[Josie Long]

1600, considering it's a relatively small island, you know.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely.

[Josie Long]

To build what they built and to sort of have such a distinctive, unusual vibe.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Josie Long]

And to have two myths that persist 5,000 years later. You've got a hand.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It's not bad. It's. Everyone knows Icarus is. It's great. The nuance window. Okay, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Josie and I recline in our palace and sip our pine flavored retina for two minutes while Dr. Steve takes to the floor to tell us something that we need to know about the Minoans. Dr. Steve, take it away.

[Greg Jenner]

There have been stories told about the people we call the Minoans as far back as we can trace. As Odysseus even says in the Odyssey, out in the wine dark sea, there lies a land called Crete, a rich and lovely land boasting 90 cities, one of which is called Knossos, where King Minos ruled. And when Arthur Evans made his startling discoveries at Knossos, he bought into that narrative. He wanted the Minoan mythical tales to mirror his Minoan historical reality. The palace traditionally built for Minos has proved to be no baseless fabric of the imagination, he said, but imagination is everything here. And with those Bronze Age artifacts that he unearthed, he created another 20th century artifact of his own and reconstituted it in reinforced concrete. It was a palace for, as he saw them, a happy, peace loving people whose arts, freedom, humanism and dynamism showed that Crete was the cradle of a European civilization that was as ancient and sophisticated as those of Egypt and Mesopotamia, but also distinct from them. Now, archaeologists often create the past in their own image. All of those stones and those bones that they excavate can't really speak for themselves. You know, they need an archaeological interpreter. So as well as trying to uncover the truth about the past, there's always an element of creative. But just like Evans, I think we read and we understand and we reconstitute the past in our cultural present, which often tells us just as much about ourselves as it does about the Minoans. And that's why history and archaeology are so beautiful.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Thank you, Steve. Josie, any follow up thoughts on that?

[Josie Long]

Yeah, I think it is very interesting thinking about the fact that we are telling on ourselves when we think we're talking about them. You know, we can't escape our own cultural context and we can't escape our own hopes and dreams for what we're looking at. And I love how mysterious it is, but I also can't bear how mysterious it is because I want to know the answers about these things which are so hidden. And what a thrill, you know, I've.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Had a lovely time, thank you both. All that's left for me to do is say a big thank you to our guests. In History Corner we had the sensational Dr. Steve Kershaw from Oxford University.

[Greg Jenner]

Thank you, Steve, and absolutely absolute pleasure. Greg, thank you very much for having me.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Thank you. And in Comedy Corner we had the lovely Josie Long. Thank you, Josie.

[Josie Long]

Thank you so much for having me. It's been so informative and to you.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Lovely listener, join me next time as we discover not invent another legendary historical civilization. But for now I'm off to go and challenge Greg James to a ball leaping contest to see who is the greatest BBC Greg. It's obviously him but I've got to try. Bye.

[Russell Kane]

Hello, Russell Kane here. I used to love British history. Be proud of it. Henry viii, Queen Victoria, massive fan of stand up comedians, obviously Bill Hicks, Richard Pryor. That has become much more challenging for I am the host of BBC Radio 4's Evil Genius, the show where we take heroes and villains from history and try to work out were they evil or genius. Do not catch up on BBC Sounds by searching Evil Genius. If you don't want to see your heroes destroyed, but if like me, you quite enjoy it, have a little search. Listen to Evil Genius with me, Russell Kane. Go to BBC Sounds and have your world destroyed.

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