The Arts and Crafts Movement (Radio Edit)

Summary

You're Dead to Me: The Arts and Crafts Movement (Radio Edit) – Detailed Summary

Release Date: May 16, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of BBC Radio 4’s "You’re Dead to Me," host Greg Jenner delves into the transformative Arts and Crafts Movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Joined by Dr. Isabella Rosner, an esteemed art historian, and Kariad Lloyd, a comedian with a passion for history, Jenner unpacks the movement's origins, key figures, ideologies, and lasting legacy, all while infusing humor and engaging dialogue.

---

1. Setting the Stage: Origins of the Arts and Crafts Movement

Timestamp: [00:44]

Greg Jenner opens the discussion by introducing the Arts and Crafts Movement—an art movement that emerged in Victorian Britain as a reaction against the rampant industrialization of the time. Dr. Isabella Rosner provides an overview, explaining that the movement began in the late 19th century, with debates surrounding its exact start date ranging from 1861 to the 1880s, and it persisted until the onset of World War I.

Key Points:

• Definition: A style focused on domestic furnishings, promoting craftsmanship and aesthetic unity across various home objects, from textiles to metalwork.
• Name Origin: Coined by Thomas James Cobden Sanderson in 1887 through the Arts and Crafts Exhibition Society.
• Primary Influencer: William Morris is identified as the movement’s leading figure, embodying its philosophies and artistic visions.

---

2. William Morris: The Movement’s Grand Architect

Timestamp: [08:12]

William Morris, born in 1834 in Walthamstow to a prosperous family, is portrayed as the quintessential renaissance man—architect, designer, writer, poet, and social thinker. Dr. Rosner highlights his self-taught expertise in various crafts and his refusal of an honorary professorship at Oxford, illustrating his dedication to hands-on creation over academic accolades.

Notable Quote:

"I do not want art for a few any more than Education for a few or freedom for a few."
— William Morris, 1877 Lecture ([04:29])

Key Points:

• Education and Influence: Attended Exeter College, Oxford, where he formed close ties with notable contemporaries like Edward Burne-Jones and Dante Gabriel Rossetti.
• Morris & Co.: Established in 1859 (originally as Morris Marshall Faulkner and Company) with partners, later renamed Morris & Co. by 1875. The firm became a hub for producing a wide array of crafted goods, from furniture to textiles.
• Social Responsibility: Emphasized ethical production, hiring apprentices from the Industrial Home for Destitute Boys, and involving women extensively in design and embroidery work.

---

3. The Philosophical Backbone: John Ruskin’s Influence

Timestamp: [07:03]

John Ruskin emerges as a pivotal intellectual influence on the movement. An architect, critic, painter, writer, philosopher, and poet, Ruskin advocated for a return to pre-industrial craftsmanship, believing it would enhance societal morals and emotional well-being.

Key Points:

• Moral Philosophy: Envisioned a society where art and design are integral to daily life, promoting moral and emotional upliftment.
• Artistic Process: Argued that artists should be involved in every step of creation, ensuring authenticity and craftsmanship.

---

4. Reaction to Industrialization: Seeking Escapism and Authenticity

Timestamp: [05:00 - 07:01]

The movement is characterized as a direct reaction to the traumas of the Industrial Revolution. As cities burgeoned and manufacturing became increasingly mechanized, the Arts and Crafts proponents yearned for a return to handcrafted authenticity and the medieval artisanal traditions.

Key Points:

• Urbanization: By 1851, more people lived in cities than rural areas, leading to overcrowded and unsanitary living conditions.
• Economic Impact: While industrialization made goods more accessible, it often did so at the expense of quality and worker well-being.
• Aesthetic Idealism: Artists sought to create beautiful, functional objects that contrasted the impersonal, mass-produced items of industrial factories.

Humorous Exchange:

Kariad Lloyd: "Obsessed." ([06:35])
Dr. Rosner: "Pointy hats, Nice hose. Good old pointy shoes as well." ([06:35-06:40])

---

5. Morris & Co.: Crafting a Multifaceted Legacy

Timestamp: [09:10]

The formation and evolution of Morris & Co. are explored in depth. Initially named Morris Marshall Faulkner and Company, the firm was rebranded to Morris & Co. by 1875 and became synonymous with high-quality craftsmanship.

Key Points:

• Products: Offered a diverse range of goods, including furniture, textiles, ceramics, glassware, and metalwork.
• Workshops: Emphasized small-scale production and collaboration among craftsmen.
• Ethos: While rejecting the impersonal nature of industrial production, the firm benefited from industrial advancements by reaching a broader market.

Notable Quote:

Greg Jenner: "I think one of the reasons the company flourishes is because of the Industrial Revolution." ([12:26])

Key Points Continued:

• Economic Paradox: Although the movement opposed industrial mass production, the Industrial Revolution indirectly fueled its success by creating a growing middle class with disposable income to spend on crafted goods.
• Global Reach: The movement's influence extended beyond Britain, impacting the United States, Japan, and other regions through journals, lectures, and international collaborations.

---

6. Gertrude Jekyll and the Fusion of Art and Nature

Timestamp: [13:27]

Gertrude Jekyll, renowned for her garden designs, exemplifies the movement’s commitment to blending indoor and outdoor aesthetics. Her contributions extended to interior design and embroidery, highlighting the movement’s interdisciplinary nature.

Key Points:

• Garden Design: Integrated seamlessly with the overall Arts and Crafts philosophy, emphasizing natural beauty and harmony.
• Interdisciplinary Approach: Showcased how various art forms could coexist and complement each other within a unified aesthetic framework.

---

7. Women in the Arts and Crafts Movement

Timestamp: [20:24]

Despite the movement's progressive stance on craftsmanship, it grappled with gender inequality. While women contributed significantly, their recognition was often limited compared to their male counterparts.

Key Points:

• Notable Women:
  • Mary Lowndes: Stained glass designer.
  • Charlotte Newman: Metalworker.
  • Edith B Dawson: Painter and enameler.
  • Mae Morris: Embroiderer and textile historian, who managed Morris & Co.’s embroidery department at a young age.
• Barriers: Organizations like the Art Workers Guild were exclusively male until the early 20th century.
• Women's Guild of Arts: Founded in 1907 by Mae Morris to provide a platform for female artists.
• Progressive Practices: Examples include shared surnames among partners, such as Cobden Sanderson, reflecting more egalitarian relationships.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Isabella Rosner: "There are some interesting connections between this movement and the British fight for women's suffrage, which is pretty cool." ([21:02])

---

8. The Decline and Enduring Legacy of the Arts and Crafts Movement

Timestamp: [22:15]

The movement gradually waned with the advent of World War I, which shifted artistic and social priorities. However, its influence persists in modern design and consumer culture.

Key Points:

• End of the Movement: The onset of war ushered in modernism and Art Deco, rendering the detailed craftsmanship of Arts and Crafts less relevant.
• Ongoing Influence: Designs like William Morris’s "Strawberry Thief" remain ubiquitous, appearing on everything from curtains to fridge magnets.
• Consumer Culture: Ironically, the movement’s emphasis on accessibility and beauty has led to its designs being mass-produced, aligning with Morris’s original intent but contrasting with his artisanal values.

Notable Quote from "Nuance Window":

"With Strawberry Thief, Morris captures the thrushes that he caught stealing fruit in his garden at Kelmscott Manor... the aesthetics of the Arts and Crafts movement are more accessible to us now than ever before."
— Dr. Isabella Rosner ([23:35])

Humorous Exchange:

Kariad Lloyd: "It is so ubiquitous everywhere that it's almost gone back round to being, like, a bit passe." ([25:46])
Greg Jenner: "But ironically, it's back to mass production again, isn't it?" ([26:03])

---

Conclusion

Greg Jenner wraps up the episode by reflecting on the enduring charm and relevance of the Arts and Crafts Movement. Despite its formal conclusion over a century ago, its principles continue to resonate in contemporary design and lifestyles. The episode underscores the movement’s complex relationship with industrialization, social change, and artistic expression, leaving listeners with a nuanced understanding of its historical significance and modern-day manifestations.

Final Thoughts:

• The Arts and Crafts Movement serves as a testament to the enduring desire for beauty, craftsmanship, and ethical production in the face of technological advancement.
• Its legacy persists not only in designs and products but also in the values it champions, inspiring ongoing conversations about the role of art and craft in society.

---

Credits

• Host: Greg Jenner
• Guests: Dr. Isabella Rosner (History Corner), Kariad Lloyd (Comedy Corner)

For more episodes exploring captivating historical topics, subscribe to "You’re Dead to Me" on BBC Sounds.

Transcript

[Kariad Lloyd]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts.

[Greg Jenner]

Hello and welcome to youo're Dead to me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our William Morris tote bags and heading back to the 19th century to learn all about the Arts and Crafts movement. And to help us spin this story, we have two practitioners of very different arts. In History Corner, she's curator of the Royal School of Needlework and a research consultant at Whitney Antiques. She's an art historian of the material culture of the 17th to 19th centuries. You might have listened to her podcast. So what? It's a pun. It's Dr. Isabella Rosner. Welcome, Isabella.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

[Greg Jenner]

We're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she is a comedian, actor, improviser, writer and podcaster. You may know her from her podcast, Griefcast, an award winning show, its spin off book youk Are Not Alone, her many TV appearances, her Weirdos Book Club podcast with lovely Sara Pascoe, or her new children's book, the Christmas Wishtastrophe. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes about Agrippina, the younger Georgian courtship. It's the wonderful Carryad Lloyd. Welcome back, Carryad.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Hello. I wanted to think of a sewing pun but I couldn't. So nice to meet you.

[Greg Jenner]

You're an expert in the Regency period. That's your.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I'm pretty good on. Yeah. Georgian.

[Greg Jenner]

No, you're very good. You're very good. But today we're in the Victorian era.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

And even into the early 20th century. So what do you know of the Arts and Crafts movement?

[Kariad Lloyd]

I know the Arts and Crafts movement. I love the Arts and Crafts movement. I have been to an exhibition of the Arts and Crafts movement when I was in Glasgow.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Before they had the fire at the Glasgow School of Art. I did a tour and they had an amazing exhibition there and it was incredible. Like amazing chairs and tables and like proper, like the good stuff and just the building itself.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Kariad Lloyd]

So I'm a fan, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of the movement. Although I did. I was saying to Isabella earlier, I had a moment on the way here when I was like, oh, yeah, it's William Morris. And I thought, is it. Have I made that up? Is it William Morris or is he like Elizabethan? I Googled it and it confirmed it was Elizabeth. Elizabeth Morris. William Morris.

[Greg Jenner]

He'd love to be Elizabethan.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, he would.

[Greg Jenner]

Loved it.

[Kariad Lloyd]

He would love it.

[Greg Jenner]

So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I imagine most people will have heard of the big dog of the Arts and Crafts movement, William Morris. His floral designs are still printed on curtains, wallpaper, notebooks, pencil cases, even on football kits. What's more, modern homeware brands like Cath Kidston owe a huge amount to the Arts and Crafts movement. And we see the design legacy in TV shows like Grand Designs and Queer Eye. But the wider history of the movement is perhaps more hidden beyond the cutesy curtains. What was Arts and Crafts really about? Why did traditional manufacturing methods have a resurgence in Victorian Britain? And what is a strawberry th. Let's Find out. Right, Dr. Isabella, where do we start our story?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

I think we should start with an overview. So the Arts and Crafts movement is an art movement, as you could guess, that begins sometime in the late 19th century. Nobody can agree on the exact start date. Some people put it at 1861, which is when William Moore starts getting on the scene. Other people say it doesn't really start until the 1870s or 1880, and it lasts until about the beginning of World War I. The movement is a style of art. It's primarily domestic furnishings, and it promotes craftsmanship and aesthetic unity between all sorts of objects in the home. And those would range from textiles to furniture to ceramics to metalwork and everything in between. The name itself comes from the Arts and Crafts Exhibition Society. That's a very long name for a society, I think, but okay, not for Victorians. They loved wordiness, didn't they? So that Exhibition Society was founded in 1887 to exhibit decorative arts alongside fine arts. And there was one guy in it in particular, Thomas James Cobden Sanderson, speaking of long Victorian names, who first coined the term in 1887. William Morris is considered the head honcho. He's the daddy. He's the grand Pumbaa in the situation. It's his ideas and view of the world that inspires so much of the movement.

[Greg Jenner]

There is a quote by Morris in an 1877 lecture.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Do you want to read the quote for us?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah. He says, and he's giving this lecture in December of 1877 to the trades Guild of Lear. I think he summarizes one of my.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Shout out to the Trades Guild of Learning.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

The best trades guilds, my favorite trades guild. He summarizes his feelings about kind of everything really well when he says, I do not want art for a few any more than Education for a few or freedom for a few? He and the other arts and crafts people are really invested in handicraft and utilizing really learned skills to create beautiful, pleasant, pleasing, comfortable, useful objects.

[Kariad Lloyd]

So is it kind of reaction to industrialization?

[Greg Jenner]

Oh, have you read the script?

[Kariad Lloyd]

No, no, I was just thinking like that. Is that what it's got? Like, you know, you, you've lost, you know, you have. Oh God, my brain. What's it called? Encroachment. What's the thing they do when they get all the land of everybody? Enclosure. So you have enclosure.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah.

[Kariad Lloyd]

And then like, you get industrialization and you've lost all these skills. Right. These amazing weaving skills and sewing skills. So is it William Morris, like Harken back to good times.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Oh boy, you should have been in the arts and crafts movie.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I would have loved it. I love the vibe.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

It's all vibes. It's all vibes for me. But yeah, exactly like Victorian London. Victorian Britain saw a huge amount of change when it came to industrialization in good and bad ways. So in terms of the population, by 1851, the census tells us that more people live in cities than in the countryside. That's a big change. You have huge numbers of people flocking to industrial city centers. But the conditions are bad, bad. Oftentimes people are living in slum conditions, in slum housing with overcrowding and a lack of sanitation and generally just bad living situations, lots of disease. And industrialization is good for some people, for a lot of people, in that it means that there are more affordable items available to more people. But the actual manufacture is gnarly.

[Greg Jenner]

We have then a movement that comes along that's reacting to the trauma of the Industrial revolution. You know, it is a trauma, right?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

These artists are responding in a way that feels like that they're looking for escapism and they go hunting for escapism. In the past, they're interested in Elizabethan, but it's the medieval world that they're particularly drawn to.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Obsessed.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Nice hats.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Hats. Good hats.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Pointy hats, Nice hose. Good old pointy shoes as well.

[Greg Jenner]

Sure.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

So they are idealizing and dreaming about this system where objects were produced in small scale workshops rather than these large, anonymous, brutal factories.

[Kariad Lloyd]

They're looking for artisan sourdough bread.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

They literally are the cottage core folks. The late Victorian day.

[Kariad Lloyd]

They would be happy in East London now.

[Greg Jenner]

We should probably mention Ruskin. Do you know Ruskin?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Carry on. I've heard of William Ruskin. No, you're just.

[Greg Jenner]

It's all William's Try another man's name from the period.

[Kariad Lloyd]

George Ruskin.

[Greg Jenner]

John Ruskin. Well done. There you go. You get there on the edge.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I've heard of him.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean he's an extraordinary figure in the 19th century. He's slightly debated these days.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Everything amongst everything else.

[Greg Jenner]

Absolutely everything. Architect, critic, painter, writer, philosopher, poet.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Oh, multi hyphenate.

[Greg Jenner]

And he's kind of an inspiration for the Arts and Crafts movement. Definitely intellectual, kind of figurehead.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yes. And he thought that society would be morally better, which is a bold move already, if art, design and industry were reimagined along pre industrial lines. He was like, let's just get rid of mechanization. We'd actually all be emotionally and morally better people. And he saw that the best, the most good period was the medieval period. And he said for art and design to be successful and morally uplifting, an artist needed to be involved in every single step of the artistic process.

[Kariad Lloyd]

He's like a nightmare director.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Let's move on to William Morris, who we've name checked him already. I think many people would recognise a William Morris print.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

Who was William Morris? You know, where was he educated? How did he get his start?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Okay, so he was basically, as we've already discussed, the guy when it comes to the Arts and Crafts movement. And he's born in 1834 in Walthamstow to a wealthy middle class family. His dad is a broker in the city of London, his mom comes from a bourgeois family in Worcester. He's comfortably fancy. He was an architect, a designer, a practitioner of several self taught crafts. He taught himself how to paint, how to make furniture, how to make tapestries. He was also a really acclaimed and talented writer, a poet, a translator. He was actually offered a largely honorary but still very impressive professorship of poetry at Oxford, but he turned it down.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Sure, we've all been there. We've all been there. You just got too much to do. I know, I understand.

[Greg Jenner]

Too busy. William Morris is an interesting fella. And much like the Bloomsbury group that we spoke about in our 100th episode, the arts and Crafts movement again is a bunch of university pals going, hey, I'm a bit posh and fancy like you and we are all friends and let's Spotlights.

[Kariad Lloyd]

It's Spotlight.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, it's pretty wholesome because he just kind of lucked into being friends with all these people, kind of. So in 1852 he goes to Oxford, he's at Exeter College and he really soon meets Edward Burne Jones, who is another. Ends up, you've heard of this guy, right? Big Arts and Crafts figure as well. He's a trainee archite after university and between his time at Oxford and his time as a trainee architect, he is kind of surrounded by all these people who share his ideals and his ethos. And so Edward Burne Jones is there, and then he marries Georgiana MacDonald. Edward does. And then when they get married, Georgiana Burne Jones joins the social circle. There's also the architect, Philip Webb. There's also the pre Raphaelite painter and poet, Dante Gabriel Rossetti. The embroidery artist and model, Jane Burden. Jane Burden is the daughter of a stableman and she is quote, unquote, discovered at the theater in Oxford by Rossetti and Burne Jones. And she starts modeling for Rossetti and then she starts modeling for Morris. And they actually end up getting married. They marry in 1859, in 1861. One of the friends, this painter named Ford Madox Brown, suggests that, yeah, you've heard of him, all these big names. He suggests that he. William Morris, Burton, Jones Webb, Rossetti and some other folks that they establish a design firm. And they do. And it's called Morris Marshall Faulkner and Company. And then.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Doesn't roll off the tongue.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Does not. But then by 1875, it's Morris & Co. And that's what we still have today. But what I love is that they simply called it the firm.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Oh, the firm.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

The boys are in the firm. They were doing everything from furniture to embroideries. Jewelry, carpets, woven textiles, tapestries, metal and glassware and wall hangings. Like if you wanted it, you could get it from them.

[Kariad Lloyd]

IKEA of their day. Except it was four guys who were also socialists.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yes. And they had. And the meatballs are delicious.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe they also made great meatballs. I don't know.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

You know, they were really mindful about their employees. So they actually started hiring and training as apprentices, boys from the Industrial Home for Destitute Boys on Euston Road in central London. But it wasn't just boys. I mean, women were involved in Morris and Company from the very beginning. Decorative tiles were being painted by Lucy and Kate Faulkner, who were sisters of Charles Faulkner, who was one of the other members of the firm. And then Georgiana Burne Jones, she was involved in the tiles as well. And like every woman in Morris's family was involved in the embroidery. So his wife Jane embroidering. His sister in law, Elizabeth or Bessie Burdon, embroidering. His two daughters May and Jenny, embroidering. It was. It was a whole family affair. They were involved.

[Kariad Lloyd]

His daughter's like, dad, I was thinking about accountancy. No, get your needles, your arts and crafts. Okay, sorry.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Luckily for him, one of them loved it.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Oh, yeah, one of them, yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Well, I don't know as much about Jenny because she had epilepsy. So she was just, you know, she was ill a lot of the time. But Mae Morris, she was a keen embroidery bean.

[Greg Jenner]

Amazing, Gary. We're used to artists being useless at.

[Kariad Lloyd]

The basic, falling apart and some money men having to come in and be like, we'll sort it out, you idiots.

[Greg Jenner]

No, this goes really well. They expand into bigger premises in near Wimbledon. Is that better?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, Merton abbey. That's in 1881.

[Greg Jenner]

I'm going to be an agent provocateur here, Isabella, because as a historian, I'm going to have to say one of the reasons the company flourishes is because of the Industrial Revolution. Right?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Oh, good point.

[Greg Jenner]

I mean, come on. I mean, they're rejecting it.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Put that in your tapestry.

[Greg Jenner]

And we did that. I know I'm being annoying, but we have to be true.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Right.

[Greg Jenner]

The Industrial Revolution creates a middle class.

[Kariad Lloyd]

It creates wealth that you can have a house that you want a tapestry for.

[Greg Jenner]

Right, yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

They're reacting against it and they're also benef from it because by the 1860s and 70s, there is a lot more wealth than there was before. So by one estimate, the average income per head of household doubles between 1850 and 1900 and the middle class triples in size. So, yeah, more people with more money meant that there was more interest in buying more objects. They have really, I think, very admirable ideas and goals, but their process there, this movement, is not helping or affecting the people who are most hurt by the terrible working conditions of Victorian England.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah. And that's always the case. Right. You can have grand, lofty ambitions, but the economics are always going to underpin does this work or not? There's another artist we should mention, actually, because just she's slightly different in that she went outside. Gertrude Jekyll. Gertrude Jekyll, who did interior, but she also did gardens.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah. She's most well known for her garden design, but she also was doing all sorts of interiors, including designing embroidery, the embroidery herself. And she had a great name. Gertrude Jekyll.

[Kariad Lloyd]

It's a great name.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. I mean, there's quite a lot of.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Good names in this episode, but she.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Really encapsulates this Arts and Crafts interest in blending together outdoor space and indoor space.

[Greg Jenner]

What's interesting about Morris, he's obviously self taught as We've heard all these things he's picking up. He's also getting other people to teach themselves. He's inspiring others. We know of an artist called William de Morgan. He teaches himself ceramics. He has a minor mishap. Do you want to guess what happens?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Does he blow up a kiln?

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, he does.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Oh, yeah. It's every ceramic nightmare.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

But not even just the kiln, like his whole workshop. Oh, my God.

[Greg Jenner]

It's like his house is on fire. He lives, though.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

He survives. And then he just moves. He's like, see ya. He moves to Cheney Walk. Very fancy. Love that for him. And he then actually has success with his various experimentations. And he becomes renowned for his stained glass windows and his tiles with Islamic decoration and his furniture. William Morrison had created a world where other craftsmen were all working together to furnish big houses and churches.

[Kariad Lloyd]

He's a Beyonce of the Arts and Crafts movement. If he does a country album, everybody thinks, hey, maybe we can all add this influence to our genre.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, he's beautifully said. He is a Beyonce. I think he would love to know that he is the Beyonce.

[Greg Jenner]

The thing that I find quite interesting is the Arts and Crafts ethos moves beyond Morris control. You see that in music. We see that in comedy.

[Kariad Lloyd]

People start a cult. You can't keep hold of it. Before you know it, they're starting their own cult.

[Greg Jenner]

But we get a sense of the Knots and Crafts movement out of England into Scotland, into Wales, into Ireland, maybe internationally, I don't know.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, yeah, there is. The movement goes across the Atlantic and hits the US as well, via things like journals and lectures from people who are in the movement. It was going to the US after World War I. It was going to Japan. It had implicate. It kind of had ripples everywhere. And it brought up all of this desire to preserve handicrafts generally. So there were all of these movements within Britain that were founded in this period to keep craftsmanship alive. There was the Arts and Crafts exhibition society in 1887. There was the art workers guild in 1884. And they were a debating society where people just sat and debated about the principles of art and design. Yes, please, Very hardcore.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I'm there. Sign me up.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

I would not be there because debate makes me stressed, because I hate confrontation. But you, you can go for me. You can tell me about it. After. There was the Fine Needlework association, which was an organization founded around the same time to give employment to.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I really hope the Fine Needlework Association. And what was the other one you said? The aesthetics like, met on the street. And it was like, da, da, da, da. With their, like, needles on the other side's got, like, knitting needles.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

There were so many, like, embroidery societies. There was, like, the Royal Embroidery Society. There was the Royal Squ. Of Needlework. Like, it's. There's the Fine Needlework association, but these people.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I mean, I like the Fine Needlework association, but they're no Royal Needlework Association. Like, their work is fine.

[Greg Jenner]

There's also another amazing. We've had some amazing names. We've already had Thomas Cobden Sanderson, who gave us the phrase Arts and Crafts movement. But now I have to present to you Ms. Eglantine Jeb.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Seems like a name you got in, like, a name generator, I think.

[Kariad Lloyd]

You know what? Why are there no Eglantines anymore? Bring it back. Let's bring back eggy.

[Greg Jenner]

So Mrs. Eggintine, Jebb is the Eggy. She sets up the Home Arts and Industries association, and they're doing, like, largely.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Great stuff as well. So they're also set, like, with that, the Home Arts and Industries Association. They are setting up handicraft classes in cities and villages. They're supporting local schools, they're alleviating seasonal unemployment. Nice word that. I just made up unemployment. And they're basically trying to keep people out of the pub.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

So largely admirable, slightly in your face, moralistic vibes going on.

[Kariad Lloyd]

In the Victorian times, was there anyone not having a moral, in your face vibe? Yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Well, so that's very well said, because all of these organizations are basically founded for two reasons. One of them is this Victorian philanthropy. So they're trying to help the poor, they're trying to help the underserved in a moralistic way. And then they're also trying to preserve these handicraft skills that they're scared industrialization will destroy.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

So we get the kind of. The broadening out of the movement, the ethos beyond the Arts and Crafts movement of William Morris's control. It gets into Edinburgh social union in 1885. It's in Ireland by the 1890s. You know, it's really gone beyond his control, but in a good way. Right. It's not, you know, he's not trying to hold it. Yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

It's kind of morphed into its own thing.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah. Which is amazing. There's one question I suppose we should address, is that although there's the sort of democratic element of recruiting the boys from the School for the Destitute and trying to bring women in, all of the Artists we've met so far are men. Well, no, we've had good. But I'd say they're of a certain class.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Oh, yeah, we'll get into the women in a second.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

They shop at Waitrose.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I think it's very white, male, middle class.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, a little bit, yeah. So I'm just, I'm wondering if they walk the walk as well as talking the talk. When it came to genuinely changing who could be an artist and who could buy this stuff, is it middle class people for middle class people?

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

I think they walked the walk as well as they could and it did end up being middle class people making stuff for middle class people simply because of what was feasible and what was what the logistics were. But I think they wanted something bigger. It did have a radical philosophy that wanted to change the landscape of industrial production and make art available to the masses. But when it comes down to it craftsmanship, this really high quality handicraft that they were advocating for, it takes time and therefore it takes money. So not everybody could afford that finely crafted stuff. And yes, you're right, the practitioners, the people involved were usually from the middle class. But yeah, the movement did not by and large change the lives of people who really needed their lives changed in Victorian England. I think the movement had really good ideas, but the world of capitalism in which they found themselves meant that they couldn't really free themselves from that system.

[Greg Jenner]

So hot in the right place. I think carriage.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it depends how much you make like of your ethos. Being like, this is for, this is for everyone, guys. So I agree with you. They're born and working the system which will not allow them to be free. But it's interesting that that's also what they marketed themselves. It's classic gentrification as well.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah.

[Kariad Lloyd]

You're saying, like they move into an area that is destitute and has been ignored, they live there cheaply and then they destroy the area for people who've lived there for generations because it becomes a cool area where the artists are and then the house prices go up and then like no one can afford to live there anymore.

[Greg Jenner]

And women in the movement, were they given equal weighting? Were they equal respect, stature? I mean, we've heard lots of names, but they're often the wives of or daughters of famous men.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yeah, I would say sometimes this was an opportunity for women to be more present than in other art movements for sure. So if I talked about all of the women, I would be here all day. But I'll Give you some quick names. There was the stained glass designer, Mary Lowndes. There was the metal worker Charlotte Newman, painter and enameler Edith B Dawson. And Mae Morris. She was not only an embroiderer, but she was a textile historian and a designer. And she actually took over the management of Morrison Company's embroidery department when she was 23.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Wow.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Iconic. But sexism was definitely still present. So the membership to the Art Workers Guild was only open to men. There had not been a female member of the Royal Academy between 1819 and 1922. So that's all of the years of the Arts and Crafts movement. And Mae Morris and people like her were pretty sick of all of that. So in 1907, she founded the Women's Guild of Arts. I should say that generally, this art movement and the fact that it puts craft on the same level as art means that there is more room for women, because it's oftentimes women who are doing those crafts. Women were exhibiting and designing alongside men. And there are some interesting connections between this movement and the British fight for women's suffrage, which is pretty cool. And then there are also some, like, fun little moments of gender equality. Gender equality is a little treat. So, like, Thomas James Cobden Sanderson, our boy who comes up with the name, he and his wife actually end up sharing, bearing their surname. They, like, do the equal thing of making a joint surname, Cobden Sanderson. And it's like these. I don't know, a little rare act. Glimpse into how some people in this movement viewed the gender divide and how things should actually be.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Wow. Okay, this is positive. They can stay.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Yes.

[Greg Jenner]

How does the Arts and Crafts movement finish? I mean, do people just go, that's enough, thank you.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Time to tidy up, guys. Look at this mess. Come on.

[Greg Jenner]

I've invented acrylic plastics.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah, we need to eat on this table.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

So, I mean, nothing changes things like war, I would say. So World War I comes in and the aesthetic changes massively. People don't have the need or desire for any of these. Any of this fine craftsmanship anymore. The war comes and all of a sudden it's modernism and Deco and. And Deco and, like, what comes after it. So while the Arts and Crafts movement technically ends at World War I, here in Britain, it does have ripples in other places. And even though, yeah, the movement is definitely over, we are still in a world where we are kind of constantly seeing Arts and Crafts images. So is it really over?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Is it? No, I don't think it is. I think we still, as we've just said, it's very apt for modern life. Yeah, it fits.

[Greg Jenner]

It's. It's back in fashion. Maybe it never left. Yeah, maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Maybe it's the friends we made along the way.

[Greg Jenner]

The Nuance window. Time now for the nuance window. This is where Kariad and I recline in our drawing room with our embroidery samplers while Dr. Isabella has two minutes to tell us something we need to know about the Arts and Crafts movement we haven't heard already. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Really? Your stopwatch? I'm scared. Okay.

[Greg Jenner]

Yeah.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

If you ever see a William Morris design, whether it be on wallpaper, an Advent calendar or a fridge magnet, chances are it's probably Morris's work called Strawberry Feast. Not only is it Morris's most beloved pattern, it's also one of the most popular textile designs ever. It's inspired everything from a novel to a video game. You can find Strawberry Thief covered products on the shelves of John Lewis, Waitrose, M S Waterstones, and even pets at home, truly fulfilling Morris's desire to make his art accessible. With Strawberry Thief, Morris captures the thrushes that he caught stealing fruit in his garden at Kelmscott Manor. Amidst multicolored flowers, scrolling vines and frilly leaves are pairs of birds. Birds those with yellow and pink wings have their mouths agape. Are they shocked that they've been caught mid tweet or mid munch? The birds with blue wings are the thieves in question. Looking very satisfied with plump strawberries hanging from their beaks. Morris felt that everyone should have access to beautiful surroundings, rest and work that inspires satisfaction and pride. And he was deliberate about what sorts of products should be made from each of his designs. In its original form back in 1883, Strawberry Thief was a printed cotton furnishing textile intended to be used for curtains, walls or loose covers on furniture. Morris printed it using the indigo discharge method, a many centuries old technique primarily used in Asia that took an especially long time to produce. Because of this, Strawberry Thief was one of the most expensive printed furnishings available from Morris and company. But the price didn't stop those little strawberry stealing birds from becoming one of Morris most commercially successful patterns. Clearly the commercial success of Strawberry thief lives on 140ish years after the textile was produced. Some things are different though. That pattern isn't limited to furnishing fabrics and it isn't expensive. This is the case for other Arts and Crafts movement designs too. William Morris did intend his work to be widely available. But he was also strategic and specific about how and on what objects his designs should be used. The aesthetics of the Arts and Crafts movement are more accessible to us now than ever before. And I wonder what those artists and makers would think about the ubiquity of their designs, adorning everything from dog beds to forks.

[Greg Jenner]

Beautiful. Look at that. Look at that. Two minutes and two seconds.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Sweaty.

[Kariad Lloyd]

I'm sweaty now.

[Greg Jenner]

Wow.

[Kariad Lloyd]

It is so ubiquitous everywhere that it's almost gone back round to being, like, a bit passe. Dare I say, strawberry Thief, like. Cause it's on notebooks and pens and every gift shop in every National Trust property in the country has all the strawberry thief you can desire. That would be my slightly snobby opinion.

[Greg Jenner]

But ironically, it's back to mass production again, isn't it?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Jenner]

It's the sort of memeification of the craft.

[Kariad Lloyd]

But to be fair to anyone, Morris, it is a banging pattern.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

It's so good.

[Kariad Lloyd]

And the first time, I think you realize what it is because I think we've all seen it and do you know what I mean? And then I went, first time I was like, oh, I see. That's his. Like, he designed that. That's a thing like, rather than like. It's just a, like who? You know, a pattern you see every day. I think you do go, oh, that is a really good pattern. There is a reason it's so successful.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

It's so charming, isn't it?

[Kariad Lloyd]

Yeah, it is still. Still very charming.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

It is.

[Greg Jenner]

Listener, if after today's episode you Want more Carrie A.D. lloyd in your life, you can check our episodes on Mary wolstonecraft. Well, craft, artsy, arts. Yeah, baby got there in the end. Sorry. And if you want to hear more about British artistic moves, movements, why not listen to our 100th episode on the Bloomsbury Group? And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review. Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to youo're Dead to Me on BBC Sound, so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the incredible Dr. Isabella Rosner from the Royal School of Needlework. Thank you, Isabella.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Thank you so much for having me. I've had the best time.

[Greg Jenner]

And in Comedy Corner, we had the cracking Caryad Loyd. Thank you, Cariad.

[Kariad Lloyd]

My arts and crafts are now fulfilled.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

Thank you.

[Greg Jenner]

And to you, lovely listener. Join me next time as we reupholster another neglected historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and teach myself ceramics and maybe blow up my house. Bye.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Hello, I'm Robin Ince.

[D]

And I'm Brian Cox.

[Kariad Lloyd]

And this is the Infinite Monkey Hedgerow.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

He just.

[D]

He was unable to write a funny joke for the introduction.

[Greg Jenner]

That's amazing. But the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage.

[D]

Science with funny bits.

[Kariad Lloyd]

Science with bits.

[D]

Funny science plus bits. So the reason that the Neanderthals died out, you're claiming, is because they weren't astronomers, Is that.

[Greg Jenner]

Yes, exactly. This is how we investigate cybercrime. We look for the yachts.

[Dr. Isabella Rosner]

The new series of the Infinite Monkey.

[D]

Cage from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.