Pee-wee Herman Part 2 with Jamie Loftus

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You're Wrong About" - Pee-wee Herman Part 2 with Jamie Loftus

Podcast Information:

• Title: You're Wrong About
• Host: Sarah Marshall
• Episode: Pee-wee Herman Part 2 with Jamie Loftus
• Release Date: July 16, 2025

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Introduction

In Part Two of the exploration into Pee-wee Herman, Sarah Marshall delves deeper into the life and legacy of Paul Reubens, the man behind the beloved quirky character. Joined by author, comedian, and podcaster Jamie Loftus, the conversation navigates through Pee-wee Herman's rise to fame, the subsequent controversies, and the lasting impact on both Reubens personally and the broader entertainment landscape.

The Origins and Success of Pee-wee Herman

Pee-wee's Big Adventure (1985): Jamie Loftus begins by clarifying a common misconception: Pee-wee Herman made his first major appearance in the 1985 film Pee-wee's Big Adventure, not initially as a television character. "It was fascinating that it was a movie first and then TV," Loftus notes (00:57).

The CBS Saturday Morning TV Show (1986-1990): Following the movie, Pee-wee's Playhouse debuted on CBS, running from 1986 to 1990. The show quickly became a staple of Saturday morning television, lauded as "the greatest kid show of all time" by Loftus (02:51). It soared to the number two spot in ratings, second only to The Smurfs in 1987.

Critical Acclaim and Unique Aspects

Distinctive Approach: Unlike many 80s cartoons tied to toy lines (e.g., Care Bears, G.I. Joe), Pee-wee's Playhouse stood out for its originality. Loftus remarks, "It was the one show on the Saturday morning TV block that isn't trying to sell me something," emphasizing its commercial independence (04:17).

High Production Quality: Paul Reubens insisted on maintaining a high production budget, ensuring the show featured live-action elements rarely seen in Saturday morning programming. This commitment to quality contributed to its enduring appeal (05:15).

Appeal to All Ages: The show cleverly embedded jokes for adults within its child-friendly framework, a strategy akin to later successes like Shrek. Loftus highlights this dual-layered humor as a key factor in its widespread acclaim (03:30).

The Downfall

Big Top Pee Wee: Despite the success of the TV show, Reubens' second movie, Big Top Pee Wee, failed to resonate with audiences. Loftus describes it as "not very good," reflecting Reubens' disappointment—but notes that the TV show remained unaffected by this setback (06:11).

Paul Reubens’ 1991 Arrest: The turning point came in 1991 when Paul Reubens was arrested in Sarasota for allegedly engaging in indecent behavior at a gay porn theater. Loftus provides a detailed account, stating, "Paul Reubens does exist, and everyone's mad at him" (15:12). This incident severely tarnished his public image and career.

Media and Network Response: Initially, CBS considered continuing to air reruns, but the release of Reubens' mugshot drastically altered this stance. Loftus notes, "CBS, after the mugshot is released, pulls reruns of the show," despite the show still having two months of episodes left (17:43). This swift reaction highlighted the rigid control networks exert over their content and the swift judgment faced by public figures.

Aftermath and Personal Struggles

Impact on Career: The arrest led to a decline in Reubens' career opportunities. Although he secured smaller roles in the 1990s and early 2000s, his shadow loomed large. Loftus emphasizes the emotional toll, stating, "Paul is devastated," as he grappled with the fallout (36:27).

Personal Life: Reubens retreated from the spotlight to spend time with his family, especially as his father battled illness. His close friendships, notably with Debbie Mazar and David Arquette (whom Loftus humorously reveals as the current Bozo the Clown), became his support system during these tumultuous times (29:32).

Ongoing Legal Battles: In 2002, Reubens faced another legal challenge when his home was raided by the LAPD for alleged child pornography. Despite pleading no contest to a misdemeanor charge and claiming innocence, the damage to his reputation was irrevocable. Loftus criticizes the media's conflation of his actions with heinous crimes, noting, "He is being accused of being an abuser of children," which irreparably harmed his legacy (41:08).

Legacy and Attempts at Revival

Later Efforts: Despite the setbacks, Reubens made attempts to revive Pee-wee Herman. He took to Broadway with Pee-wee's Playhouse in 2011, which received positive reactions. A 2016 Netflix movie further attempted to rekindle his earlier success, though without significant impact (34:21).

Documentary "Complicated": A poignant exploration of Reubens' life, the documentary Complicated, directed by Matt Wolf, aimed to humanize Paul Reubens beyond Pee-wee Herman. The film navigated Reubens' struggles with public perception, his concealed queer identity, and his battle with cancer. Tragically, Reubens passed away before the documentary's completion, leaving a bittersweet testament to his life and legacy (50:26).

Reflections on Paul Reubens' Life and Impact

Queer Identity and Media Narratives: Marshall and Loftus discuss the intersection of Reubens' queerness with the media's portrayal of his legal issues. Loftus criticizes the homophobic undertones in the reporting, highlighting how Reubens was unfairly vilified—a pattern mirrored in other queer entertainers' experiences (24:45).

Enduring Influence: Despite personal and professional struggles, Reubens' influence on pop culture remains significant. Loftus asserts, "Peewee is innocent," underscoring the disconnect between the character's wholesome image and the accusations against Reubens (41:08). Marshall echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of separating the art from the artist's personal controversies.

Community and Support: Throughout the conversation, the value of community and genuine friendships surfaces as a recurring theme in Reubens' life. Despite public ostracization, his close-knit relationships provided resilience and solace (30:28).

Conclusion

Pee-wee Herman Part 2 with Jamie Loftus offers a multifaceted exploration of Paul Reubens' life, balancing his creative genius with the personal tribulations he faced. Sarah Marshall and Jamie Loftus shed light on the complexities of maintaining an artistic identity amidst public scrutiny and media sensationalism. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the human behind the beloved character, advocating for compassion and nuanced understanding in the face of controversy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jamie Loftus (00:57): "But we're getting ahead of ourselves because before that, before the TV show, comes Pee Wee's Big Adventure."

• Jamie Loftus (04:17): "You immediately and embarrassingly are like, oh, like Shrek. You know, that was the point."

• Jamie Loftus (15:12): "But now, all of a sudden, Paul Reubens does exist, and everyone's mad at him."

• Jamie Loftus (41:08): "He's being accused of being an abuser of children."

• Paul Reubens (Recorded Video at His House, 54:04): “More than anything, the reason I wanted to make a documentary was to let people see who I really am and how painful and difficult it was to be labeled something that I wasn't.”

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Timestamps Reference: All timestamps correlate to the points discussed above within the transcript.

Transcript

[Sarah Marshall]

Feels like adults were more upset, maybe, than kids ever were. Welcome to youo Wrongabout. I'm Sarah Marshall, and here we are in part two of learning about Pee Wee Herman, AKA Paul Reubens. And we are, of course, learning about the character and the man with author, comedian, and podcaster extraordinaire, Kami Loftus. I'm so happy to be bringing you part two of this episode. I loved this conversation. I feel so lucky to have been able to have it and to pass it on to you. And now here's the show.

[Jamie Loftus]

But we're getting ahead of ourselves because before that, before the TV show, comes Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie Loftus]

In 1985.

[Sarah Marshall]

So it's fascinating that it was a movie first and then tv. I think. I really thought it was the other way around.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. So it was a movie, then tv, then a movie, and then nothing for a long time. Again, Paul has, as with everything he ever made, he was really, really involved in every part of production. But he gets into this in the documentary. A source of frustration for him is that it's starring Pee Wee Herman, but all the work is being done under the name Paul Rubens. So it's confusing. He feels like he. He feels like. And again, it's like one of his things of jealousy of. This is also Tim Burton's first movie that he ever directed when he was, like, 28, which. Try not to think too hard about it. And the. The two of them get connected via Shelley Duvall, which is incredible, of course, because she was in his short film Frankenweenie.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

So they.

[Jamie Loftus]

So Shelly and. And Paul are friends because. I don't know how. But of course they are.

[Sarah Marshall]

Of course they are. They go to the same juice place or something.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly. And so he gets connected with Tim Burton. Tim Burton directs the movie, and Paul feels that he gets most of the credit and that his career benefits more than Paul's, because it says, directed by Tim Burton, written by, you know, Paul Rubens.

[Sarah Marshall]

Who's that?

[Jamie Loftus]

But no one knows who that is. Right. Because he's done. It's that, like, classic thing of, like, he's done such a good job at becoming Pee Wee that it becomes kind of a liability.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And this is something that comes up for him again and again. But off of the movie, he gets the TV show that aired on Saturday mornings on CBS.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

From 1986 to 1990. It's the greatest kid show of all time. It's so special. And luckily, people generally agreed on this. It. It was Almost immediately successful. It was the number two show on Saturday morning. This is like peak Saturday morning cartoons. It was. Can you guess what was the one children's show more popular than Pee Wee's Playhouse in 1987?

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, boy, this feels tough. My Little Pony.

[Jamie Loftus]

It is the Smurfs, of course.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, the Smurfs were huge, I guess. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But I read a lot of the early, like, writing and criticism around. Not cry me, there wasn't a lot of criticism. But part of the reason that parents really liked this and I didn't really connect, this was. It was refreshing because there were jokes that were just for the parents. And every time I hear that, every time I hear like, and there's jokes for parents, I immediately and embarrassingly am like, oh, like Shrek. You know, that was the point. Yeah, yeah, but like Shrek, there's jokes for adults. But the, the real appeal of it for some TV critics was that it was not based off of existing intellectual property.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that. I mean, and if you look at 80s cartoons, it does seem like most of them were based on toys.

[Jamie Loftus]

Care Bears, G.I. joe, like Smurfs. It's all this, like, there's this feeling in all of the TV criticism I was reading from that time that most critics and parents were like, oh my God. And the reason that was happening and I didn't know this is because there was a change to FCC laws in 1984. I'm pulling this from the Buffalo Reagan News. Yes, Buffalo News in 1987. Until 1984, the FCC regulated programs and commercials for young viewers. Since it stopped, there has been an onslaught of commercial oriented cartoon shows for action figures and other toys since deregulation. The National Coalition on Television Violence reports the number of war cartoons has jumped from a few hours a week to 43 hours a week. The NCTV said the increase in is almost entirely due to toy companies using cartoons to sell various lines of war war toys.

[Sarah Marshall]

How else were we brainwashed children into supporting Reagan in the Iran Contra scandal?

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly. Maybe the government can do something to clean up kids tv. But if not, at least Peewee's Playhouse provides a worthwhile alternative to the other shows. So people are also just like, this is the one show on the Saturday morning TV block that isn't trying to sell me something.

[Sarah Marshall]

But at least, but it's like the bar is like, well, at least it wasn't conceived of so that it could be made into a toy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly, exactly. Like, so it's very, very successful. It's the number two show they. It has a really unusually high budget because Paul was really adamant that they, you know, keep the production budget high. This really the only. Also the only live action show on a Saturday morning block as well. Yeah. So this. This continues for basically all five seasons of the show. There's also a second.

[Sarah Marshall]

Amazing.

[Jamie Loftus]

There's also a second movie that comes out that I've only seen once. It's not very good. It's called Big Top Pee Wee. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't do great. Paul's disappointed. But ultimately it doesn't affect the success of the TV show. So we'll kind of glaze over that.

[Sarah Marshall]

And Pee Wee's big adventure is basically like. It's a big adventure. He kind of has a hero's journey. Right. He has to get his bike back. Exactly. To travel across America.

[Jamie Loftus]

Big Top Pee Wee is more based on, like, Pollyanna, where it's like, we gotta get the town together. It's very circus based. Like, you can see why he was sad because he's pulling it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

All the stuff he loved when he was a kid. But, sorry, Paul, the movie was not very good.

[Sarah Marshall]

Love means telling the truth.

[Jamie Loftus]

But the show is super successful. Another one of my favorite fun facts about it is that, you know how they. They would do the king of cartoons would come and introduce the cartoon of the week when. Which sometimes would just be an old cartoon in the public domain. But it was also the first consistent animation gig for the creator of one of my favorite cartoons, hey Arnold. There are these shorts called Penny Cartoons on Pee Wee's Playhouse that was created by Craig Bartlett as well. So there's like this very. I feel like it's most often like the Dana Carvey show is considered, like, this launching point for all of these very successful creative people. But Pee Wee ends up launching a lot of people, including Tim Burton, the creator of hey Arnold. He's a big part of Laurence Fishburne becoming more mainstream, successful. Like all these people. You know Phil Hartman.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right. Because he was like a theater guy, I feel like. Before that. Yeah, well, and I was thinking of hey Arnold earlier because Arnold is also like a child who also has, like, the most incredible, cool, basically adult living space that you could possibly imagine. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And it's weird because I feel like the appeal of Arnold is kind of like, different, where he is like a child who is an adult. Like, he is.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's so mature.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's kind of the bizarro peewee.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And also that he, like, lives in a boarding house with his grandparents. So he's like Kind of a free agent, you know, who's like. And he's like a kid about the city. It's a little bit of a noir, even.

[Jamie Loftus]

It kind of is. Yeah. Arnold. I mean, the. Also a show I loved, but he lived in the real world.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, yeah. Arnold had to, like, deal with bureaucracy and stuff. It was exhausting.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's brutal. It's. God. The hey, Arnold Christmas episode where Mr. Wynn gets reunited with his daughter after they were separated during the Vietnam War. I'm like.

[Sarah Marshall]

Because a callous adult won't do it unless Arnold can get Nancy's pomoni snow boots. And because for adults, everything has a price. But. Oh, my God. Yeah. I love crying at that episode.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's so beautiful. And, yeah, I guess very different for Pee Wee, which is why it's weird that they're connected, but they are.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. They support each other, you know, they're like each other's force. Soulmates. Like, I don't know. What's her ass and Kylo Ren.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But so the show lasts for five seasons, including an incredible Christmas special. Have you seen the Peewee Christmas special?

[Sarah Marshall]

No, I have not. And I kick myself.

[Jamie Loftus]

You would lose it for this Christmas special. Let me just.

[Sarah Marshall]

I can't wait to lose it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is why it's so funny that in retrospect, people are like, I wonder if he was involved in the queer community. Because listen to the list of guests on this show. It also starts with him singing a welcome song in front of these, like, hot Navy guys.

[Sarah Marshall]

Of course.

[Jamie Loftus]

So for moment one, you're. You're like, okay, we're. We're locked in.

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm here.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. Here are the people who are in the Christmas special that are not just Peewee. Joan Rivers, Dinah Shore, Zsa Zsa Gabor. Oprah Wininfrey, Little Richard. K.D. lang.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Cherry. Yes. Charo. Whoopi Goldberg. Grace Jones.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Frankie Avalon.

[Sarah Marshall]

There we go.

[Jamie Loftus]

Annette Funicello. Like, just queer icons, top to bottom. Like, oh, it's. He. He made it to kind of bounce back from being disappointed about Big Top Pee Wee. And it is so worth it. It's so good.

[Sarah Marshall]

I feel like the weirdest part of the story is just that somebody got to do what they wanted to do creatively and that they were able to do it, and it was just on TV and people loved it until. Until inevitably. Yeah, until.

[Jamie Loftus]

So I think one of the big, important things to correct that I think is misremembered in general. I definitely remembered it this way, is that Paul Rubens is arrested in 1991. It is obvious, often portrayed, that it was because of this arrest that the show was cancelled. That is not true. Even though, as time goes on, that would be reported more and more. Even though at the time it. It's not true.

[Sarah Marshall]

Paul decided it's just like the brain seeking cause and effect and then one newspaper does it, so the others copy it or something.

[Jamie Loftus]

I, yeah, or just I, I. Or people. Or people just don't give a. I don't know. But, like, as a PE Historian, I give a. And Paul decided to end the show after five seasons. I love that he was really burned out. He was exhausted and was like, I, you know, I think that we had a good run, but I'm. I'm ready to end it. And I just love stories like that. Ending a show on your own terms, it's like, oh, what a privilege. What an incredible thing to be able to do.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. And also to be able to resist, you know, being sort of bribed to do more of it. And like, look, I know we all know Gary Seinfeld is terrible, but I do appreciate as, as you know, I dream in Seinfeld sometimes. And like, Seinfeld is probably, like, one of the only shows to have, like, been ended on purpose by the people who made it when it was like, the top show in the country, which it was. You know, it's like you have to be able to walk away from something, I think. And of course, we're seeing, like, the effects of, you know, and we really can really just blame studios and corporations for this mostly. But this thing of, like, having that audiences, like, and then giving it to them so hard and refusing to make anything else until everyone just cannot stand you anymore. Movies are being made by the worst kind of casino gambler, which is somebody who just stands at the slot machine for 14 hours because they have to keep going because surely this will work out if we just keep doing it, as opposed to, especially in entertainment, which is a creative field ultimately, to sort of be like, I am the person who makes this, and I, I don't. I don't have anything anymore. And I don't want to do a final season of Game of Thrones.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think it's just rare to be able to, like, have dignity as a professional, creative person and all. And this feels like a rare instance of getting, like. I also think of, like, Nathan for you. I'm pretty sure Insecure was ended in that way. Fleabag, where you're just like, this is all there is to the story.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. The story is over.

[Jamie Loftus]

You can't make me make more story because you paid me too much.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I love that, because stories really do. Like, they just end, and then you. If they're truly over, you cannot do anything more with them, I really think.

[Jamie Loftus]

And Peewee could have gone on forever, but it was like he was done.

[Sarah Marshall]

He was done, and he's Pee Wee.

[Jamie Loftus]

So, you know, no one can replace him because. And I know that because many have tried. And. And when you think about it, this is very clear because the show ends at the end of 1990, and Paul, who was never estranged from his family, but hadn't been able to spend a lot of time with them since becoming very famous for, like, basically 10 straight years.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

Goes back to Florida to spend time with his family. And it is while he is spending time with his family in the. I think the summer of 1991, that he is arrested in Sarasota. This is, like, the most famous incident. And so I want to just get into exactly why. I mean, it's obvious he was arrested at a gay porn theater in Sarasota, possibly the same one he was arrested at when he was 18 years old. But he is arrested, of course, as Paul Rubens. But the public doesn't really know who Paul Rubens is. They know who Peewee Herman is. Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's the man who doesn't exist.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. But now, all of a sudden, Paul Reubens does exist, and everyone's mad at him. So what exactly happened here is. And I do appreciate that the residents of Sarasota are, like, now, hold on. Because he is arrested, allegedly, which he denies, and I believe him, that he was exposed. Or, like, you're jerking off in a porn theater, essentially.

[Sarah Marshall]

Which. And to be clear, like, even if a person does do that, it is kind of the best place to do it. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Who fucking cares? Like, he wasn't. Even if he did do it, he wasn't the only person to do it that hour. And also, if this were a straight porn theater, it would be a very different conversation, obviously.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

So there's already this, like, homophobic witch hunt aspect to it. But the way they explain it is just so weird, because they're saying there are no fewer than three Sarasota undercover cops in this porn theater.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

What's the story in the middle of the day? The. The two movies showing were called Nancy Nurse and Turn up the Heat, and they were just waiting to see someone jerking off. Like, it's very unclear. Also, at the time, Paul, like, Paul denies that he he doesn't deny being at the theater, but he was like, I wasn't jerking off in the theater. And there was. If it had gone to trial, which it didn't. His lawyer said that they had footage of, like, security footage of Paul in the lobby at the time, that these three cops were, for some reason, looking for people jerking off at a theater, which should be illegal. Like, it's. It's so weird. And I was like, following this story, like, day to day because it unfolds over the course of a couple of days. At first, it's just the news that breaks. And CBS is quiet about it at. Because the show, they're no longer airing new episodes, but they are still airing reruns. And so the decision is, do we continue to air reruns? Um, at first, there's a cv, CBS exec executive that's like, yeah, that's like. We will probably keep airing it. But within a day, it's when his mug shot comes out that the tide changes on him significantly. Because he doesn't look like Pee Wee Herman. He's got longer hair. He's been. He hasn't been working for a couple months.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's a human man.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's hanging out in Florida. He looks like a different person. And. And it seems like that had a. In that mug shot being so everywhere.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Is what turns interestingly. And again, I. I viewed this very differently. It doesn't turn his fans against him, really. It doesn't turn his friends, family, or t. Most TV critics against him. It turns the network against him.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Cbs, after the mugshot is released, pulls reruns of the show, which only would have been running for another two months. So it's also very, like, manufactured crisis.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Disney, I guess, that he had, like, he had a video at one of the roller coasters or some shit. They pull that and make a big deal about it. And there's these, like, a classic Sarah Marshall canon, like, two narratives that develop among TV critics, one of which, like, a couple headlines here. There's one in the El Paso Herald Post that says, help kids separate Peewee Herman and actor. And I'm like, help Paul Reuben separate Pee Wee Herman and actor Micah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Also, why do your kids need to hear about any of this? That's a big question.

[Jamie Loftus]

Listen to how I was like, were these conversations happening? I certainly hope not. An elementary school child might be told that police say Reubens broke the law by touching his private parts in a movie theater, but that the allegation has to be checked out further. She noted that a child may reply if the police said, he did it. Didn't he really do it? I would explain that. This is very complicated.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's a weird way to teach civil rights.

[Jamie Loftus]

The point is that just because the police or media say somebody did something, that doesn't make it true. Dr. Alberto Serrano, a child psychiatrist who is the medical director of the Philadelphia Child Guidance center, said parents should deal with children's disappointment that somebody they like is accused of doing something wrong. If a child wonders whether he can believe in anybody, parents can acknowledge that many people in the world do disappointing things, but that others have been reliable over a long period of time.

[Sarah Marshall]

This is so interesting that they're like, how to talk to your child about Pee Wee Herman.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I mean, I get that it's like a very strange moment as a parent, presumably because kids do hear stuff. I don't really think that they're having school year conversations involving the word allegations necessarily, but you know that like, they talk and the TVs on and everything. But a. From an adult perspective, which I don't think we had at the time because we were in the sort of like, George Bush family values, Murphy Brown can't have a baby era of like, sex is terrible and we're terrified of it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Also, Paul Rubens is on Murphy Brown. He has an arc. Anyways.

[Sarah Marshall]

See, there you go. Fornicators. But, like, it does feel like we're at a moment at a nation of being, like, particularly scared of sex and particularly puritanical.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

But also that, like, I imagine as a parent, if you have a child who's like, pre adolescent, you're like, I don't really want to have to talk about this topic and like, introduce it this way because it's like, not necessarily something that you can or should process depending on your age. Right. As a fan of this show. So it's like, as an. As adults, we should have been able to be like, well, if you did do it, then like, who fucking cares?

[Jamie Loftus]

Who cares? Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

But you're forced to sort of like, have all these, like, weird parent conversations, I guess, as part of it. Although I don't know how many people had to be having.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's the other thing you're like, is.

[Sarah Marshall]

This feels like adults were more upset maybe than kids ever were.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's. It definitely seems that way. And that was another thing that I. I was learning through this because there are plenty of TV critics who stand up for him and blame cbs. This is from the LA Daily News. Sorry Kids. But business is business. Sure, CBS had basked gladly in the acclaim accord accorded to the stylishly stylized postmodern children's show because it had won, like, at least a dozen Emmys in its run. It won a ton of awards.

[Sarah Marshall]

They were like, my God, we're doing great. Prestige.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sure, it was Rubens, not Peewee, who was arrested. Sure, there's room for debate as to whether what he is accused of doing is actually a crime, but it didn't matter. The lesson children can take from this is that if you make a mistake or are simply accused of making a mistake, you will pay dearly. Even if the judicial system eventually supports Rubin's claims disputing the police version of went. Of what went on in the theater, and he's found not guilty, the arrest ensures he'll never again be found innocent. And innocence was a big part of Pee Wee's charm. So he essentially blames the network for buying into the narrative, which I think is. And the media for buying into the narrative.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Of like, we must immediately distance ourselves from this person because that sort of. That communicates. Yeah. Like a worse outcome than what had happened so far. Legally.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. And this is. I mean, this is completely devastating for Paul because this is also tacitly outing him.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And in the worst way possible.

[Jamie Loftus]

Or one of them in the worst way. It's. It's his worst nightmare. His friends are extremely supportive. They basically get him out of Florida in disguise. They're reassuring. They're like, we're going to turn this around. It's okay. But immediately he is like. He says that the documentary, the public has a memory like a steel trap. So don't kid yourself or me about how it works. Thirty years later, I still feel those effects all the time. And he's right. Like, that. That was still how people. And still is how some people talk about him.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Well. And the way that I remember my dad describing it, with his great grasp of current events, was that the guy who played Pee Wee Herman was arrested for, in reality, doing what he was accused of in an adult theater, but in my dad's version, doing it, like, at a kid's movie. And there were kids everywhere. Because I think that was, like, not just my dad, but the sort of, like, homophobia of the time and of the time before of, like, if you're outed as gay, then that also, you know. And of course, of today, growingly, that means you're also outed as someone who's unsafe to be around children or to even make media for them and that, you know, if you have any kind of allegedly deviant sexuality, then, like, it's all equally dangerous. And that sort of what we. What we were still teaching kids as well at that time. And still.

[Jamie Loftus]

And still, I mean, there's so much I. I think that, like, the. Unfortunately, the timing of this documentary and also unfortunately for Paul, because it doesn't seem like he wanted this, his life, to really exist within this narrative.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But unfortunately it does. Where it's like, we're seeing that so frequently with any queer entertainer right now, particularly if they're out. It's getting harder and harder to maintain a platform as a queer creator because.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I mean, a parallel to this, of course, is Norm MacDonald getting fired from Saturday Night Live, to my understanding, because he made too many O.J. simpson jokes on Weekend Update, and Donal meyer golfed with O.J. simpson. So you can't do that. So it's, like, exhausting. You know, you will sponge your name out of our. Our records and stop showing your show if you're accused of doing something that's like a bit of a sex scandal. But you can kill your wife, obviously.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. I mean, that's just a day at the park there. That's. I did not know that. That's so.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And that, you know, and maybe NBC has a different story, but I don't.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't believe it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But I also just wanted to talk about, like, the media narratives this was existing alongside. Obviously, there's still a lot of queer panic in the early 90s, but the specific queer panic that we are looking at here and the story that you see beside this, not in conversation with it. First of all, this is, like, not funny, but, like, here's this. Bill Cosby did defend Paul, and I was like, we don't need you. We don't need you. It is wild to see Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby is among Reuben's defenders. They are judging a man without the right of due process. I was like, well, I wonder why that's on your mind. Totally different reasons. But the. The other story.

[Sarah Marshall]

And then Alan Dershowitz takes the floor.

[Jamie Loftus]

But there. The other story that you see alongside this one, just because of timing, is Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Jesus Christ. And the Silence of the Lambs is in theaters.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, queer panic is very, very high right now. And you'll often. There were a few different examples I saw of Paul Rubens and Jeffrey Dahmer mentioned in the same sentence. And this will happen to Paul again in the early 2000s, where it is just a hyper conflation of like Paul, obviously. Even if he did what he was accused of, which it sounds like he didn't.

[Sarah Marshall]

Mm.

[Jamie Loftus]

Didn't hurt anybody, but he's being held alongside a serial killer, like, and, and it's, it's done very matter of factly. And he is right to say that this irreparably damages his career.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But his fans still love him. There are. I, I didn't know this, but there were protests outside of cbs. They're here.

[Sarah Marshall]

They're queer. They're also afraid of what people, people are going to say about them and comparing them to serial killers.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, what's interesting is Paul's queerness doesn't really come into the equation here. It's more, it's, it's interesting that there are these protests outside of CPS for Peewee, not for Paul.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's.

[Jamie Loftus]

And there's, there's families, there's kids, there's adult fans of the show that are like, bring back Peewee.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love that. I had no idea that that happened.

[Jamie Loftus]

Isn't that nice? Yeah, it was. I mean, there were thousands of calls and fan mail that he received. I think if the public had had their way, the show would have been back on. It seems like the, the network was.

[Sarah Marshall]

Really outnumbered, which is interesting because then, because of the network just being able to override that, we then, you know, until we go back and, and look at it more deeply, can easily remember something as, like, we can easily look back and remember it as if the American people spoke with the same voice as CBS executives or which, in fact, they so rarely do.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly. Yeah. The, the public reception. I mean, I had no idea that I, I, I always thought the whole world turned on him.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

That wasn't even true. It was just the people with power turned on him.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And he, and it doesn't take that many, it turns out.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I feel like, yeah, the public memory is so short that we are very quick to conflate the people with power turned on you to everybody training you. It's like all of the resources turned on him. Basically.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

There are a few moments for him. Like, there is I. Again, another thing I didn't know is that this all happens in, I think like, July, that September. He appears as peewee at the VMAs for like 30 seconds, just. And people are losing it. They're so happy he's there. All he says is heard Nika jokes lately and then presents something and it seems like there might be A road back for him. But it's very unclear in his personal life. He becomes really good friends with Debbie Mazar, who's like a character actor who I'm always like, what is she most famous for? And you could say Goodfellas, but I.

[Sarah Marshall]

Think of her as, yeah, hot girl and Goodfellas. But she's.

[Jamie Loftus]

I feel like she's just like, her younger, too. She's.

[Sarah Marshall]

I really like. Oh, well, she's like. She's in Empire Records iconically. I feel like she's one of those people who's been iconic in, like, 30 different movies when you add it all up.

[Jamie Loftus]

So she. She and Paul become really close at this time. They're close friends till his death. And it's. It's at this time where he's obviously, he's very depressed. He's, like, in the house most of the time. There's, like, the windows are blacked out for several weeks to avoid paparazzi. And he really relies on his friends. And that, I think, is like an element of the back half of his life as he became very invested in friendships. I think similar to John Waters. Like, he was obsessed with making sure he gave everyone really thoughtful birthday messages, which is just one of the most. The best qualities in a person. I wish I were better at it.

[Sarah Marshall]

I know. I tell myself that if you can get, like, a really thoughtful gift together at any other time of the year, then that kind of balances out. But I don't know. But yeah, it's. And also, like, continuous with the show, you know, where it's like. It seems like if there's something that you learn by example from it, it's to invest in community.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, absolutely. And he. I think, like, after having, I think just like, honestly, the youthful, like, rivalries and all this stuff, he really. He really sinks himself into good friendships because also all of his friendships are tested by this. And the friends who stand by him are his. Basically become his. His family. There's Is a lot of disappointment and still hurt. It sounds like, based on how he talks in the documentary on his peers who make fun of him. There is a. A former Pee Wee's Playhouse producer that sort of, you know, denounces him after this happens. Phil Hartman makes jokes as his expense. Sam Kinison says he should be executed.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like, oh, get it together, Sam Kinison.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, just, you know, Kevin Nealon, Soupy Sales, Jim Carrey. Like, there's all of these.

[Sarah Marshall]

His peers because you become material suddenly.

[Jamie Loftus]

Exactly. And Paul, I would say he neither forgives nor forgets. In these situations. And so the friends who stick by him, he really does everything he can to. To care for them. He becomes really good friends with David Arquette, which becomes important later in his life. Did you know David Arquette is Bozo?

[Sarah Marshall]

No.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, guess what, Sarah. David Arquette is Bozo.

[Sarah Marshall]

What iteration of Bozo? What's Bozo?

[Jamie Loftus]

The current one. My friend saw him as Bozo last weekend. What he's around.

[Sarah Marshall]

This is huge.

[Jamie Loftus]

David Arquette is Bozo is one of my favorite sentences.

[Sarah Marshall]

To be clear, is it like bozo is like an eternal being who is played by different people at different times? Basically, yes. So I was the eternal clown.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was weirdly very. I don't know. I think it's because it's connected to the Bob Baker Marionette Theater, which is like, in. Not my neighborhood, but I performed there a lot. And there was this big story, like last year, maybe a couple years ago, where David Arquette and Billy Corgan were trying to buy the rights to Bozo the Clown. Because you can't just perform as Bozo. You got it. You got to buy it.

[Sarah Marshall]

You got to franchise it.

[Jamie Loftus]

And so they had. They were like, really trying to buy the rights to Bozo so that David Arquette could be Bozo. And they did it. And now David Arquette is Bozo. And sometimes he's around town playing Bozo. That's just kind of what he's up.

[Sarah Marshall]

To right now, just doing Bozo, you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Know, for the next couple years. Paul. Paul very much like his career is never as big as it was in the late 80s again. But he continues to work and do really like. He does a lot of smaller, iconic roles. He's in the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's how he meets David Arquette. He plays the Penguin's father in Batman Returns with Tim Burton again. So he. He kind of falls into his friends who stood by him and works with them, and that's how he's able to. He has an arc on Murphy Brown. He appears a lot on Joan river show. And this is of kind. Kind of how he continues through the 90s and then so into the early 2000s. By the early 2000s, he is starting to step out more. It seems like the public is like, we miss peewee. They they re release Pee Wee on dvd. It's being shown on Adult Swim. People are like, maybe it's time. Maybe it's time for more.

[Sarah Marshall]

Paul.

[Jamie Loftus]

He hosts this game show on NBC as a character. I don't know. I can send you a clip of it. But he plays a character named Troy Stevens. And people are like, okay, he's in the movie Blow.

[Sarah Marshall]

I remember that. Weirdly, that's the first thing I remember seeing him.

[Jamie Loftus]

I've never seen Blow.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's not that good.

[Jamie Loftus]

But, like, I. People like that. And then he starts talking about coming back as Peewee. He talks about these few scripts that never come to pass. He has an idea for something that I was like, oh, man, I wish he'd gotten to do that. He wanted to do basically a, like, black comedy mockumentary about how Peewee came to be and had the script since the 80s. And is. He said that it. It's not dissimilar to Valley of the Dolls. I was like, what do you mean? He has one that is like a Wizard of Oz kind of journey thing. He has all of these ideas, and he starts being like, what if Peewee came back? You was. And everyone was like, we would love that. We would love that. But that does not happen. And this I don't remember at all. Even though it's the Peewee indiscretion public narrative that I was alive for. But, you know, he's. He's doing basically just mostly sitcom bit parts until late 2002, when he is in the middle of doing a bit part in an Elton John music video that his house is raided by the LAP D. This was not something that I was familiar with until I think he passed. Like, I definitely knew everyone knew about the porn theater narrative, which, by the way, I should say foreclosure for that. He pleaded no contest. Pay, like, paid a 50 fine was technically, like, you know, they said if it had gone to trial, he would have been found innocent because there was that footage of him in the lobby.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie Loftus]

But the public didn't forget. So the first thing doesn't even go to trial. He pleads no contest.

[Sarah Marshall]

Of course not. Yeah. I would apply to this. There was more children's education centered on this as a lesson in innocent until proven guilty. We can bring that up more in the curriculums, but, man. Yeah. And of course, that part of the story is the part we don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, right. But in late 2002, this is. This is the one that I think really kind of breaks his spirit for some time, and it's on his mind for the rest of his life. His house is raided by the LAPD because there were reports of child pornography at his home. The story that this is presented alongside is Jeffrey Jones.

[Sarah Marshall]

These two.

[Jamie Loftus]

These. They're presented as, again, equal offenses.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

So I'm just going to read from the original report so you can hear how it was reported.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

A year old pornography investigation has led to the filing of criminal charges against two Hollywood actors, Paul Rubens and Jeffrey Jones. Rubens was charged with one misdemeanor count of possessing materials depicting children under the age of 18 engaged in sexual conduct. He surrendered to authorities Friday and was released on $20,000 bail. And Jeffrey Jones was charged with hiring a 14 year old boy to pose for sexually explicit photos of felony as well as misdemeanor possession of child pornography. So these charges are very different in their severity. Yeah, Jeffrey Jones and Paul Rubens, it sounds like they had met. The story, the, the story is honestly unclear, but with regards to Paul, I think it definitely hurts him that Jeffrey Jones committed a felony. He committed child abuse. Paul's is much harder to kind of pin down. And yeah, so as he explains it, as his lawyers explain it, and as David Arquette, AKA Bozo explains it, Bozo himself. And we must trust Bozo. And I want to be like careful with how I talk about this because I know that, I know your listeners know this, but I, I don't mean to minimize any of this, but I feel it does come back to a homophobic witch hunt for Paul. For years, he and David Arquette, AKA Bozo, were like, Paul was really into collecting vintage pop culture stuff. And so what they would often do is go to flea markets, go to whatever places where you could get boxes of old magazines and he would buy boxes of old magazines and he had a lot of old magazines at his house. And it was. The investigation involved the LAPD in an incredible use of their time, as always, once again.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And to continue, our theme goes through.

[Jamie Loftus]

Over 30,000 photos, bits of footage, all of this stuff. After months and months of this, they find two images that are considered questionable, both of which are determined to not actually be photos of underage people.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

And was very unlikely that Paul had ever even accessed it because it was deep in these boxes of stuff. So this is a far more complicated. Like the, the 1991 thing is pretty fucking cut and dry. Like, yeah, this is a more severe accusation, but just from what I've been able to gather, there's nothing to it. And Paul is devastated.

[Sarah Marshall]

And basically it's an attempt to sort of comb through everything in the hopes of finding something and ultimately finally saying, well, I guess we didn't, but we sure did try, but it's too late.

[Jamie Loftus]

The damage is done.

[Sarah Marshall]

And then being connected to somebody who Very manifestly did it.

[Jamie Loftus]

And was an abuser.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. And had, like, pretty clear intent. And also, as you said, actually took it out of that realm into actual child abuse. And again, to sort of be, like, connected or sort of positioned as if there is a connection between you and someone who is demonstrably very dangerous when it's. You know, despite attempts, nobody has uncovered that information about you.

[Jamie Loftus]

No.

[Sarah Marshall]

And, yeah, I would not. I would. I would go. I would not seek out public life at that point either.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was gonna say Pee Wee. Innocent. Pee Wee innocent.

[Sarah Marshall]

Peewee is innocent.

[Jamie Loftus]

But this breaks him. It affects his life in every single way, because now he is being accused of. I mean, because he was a former children's entertainer, and now he's being framed as an abuser of children.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's really close with. He had the same assistant for 40 years about. And is a huge part. Was a huge part of her child's life and had to, like, could only be supervised with her for years. So. So this. It. It just, like, it seems like it really breaks his spirit. This does go to trial and what happens. And I. I'm sure you have examples of this. I. I wish I had more time to do a little bit more research on the history of just obscenity laws.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

What ends up happening is he is sentenced to three years probation after pleading guilty to a misdemeanor account of, quote, possessing obscene materials of minors engaged in sexual conduct based off of these two pictures deep in boxes in his house, which he still objects to and his lawyers still object to because he was like, they. They were not photos of underage people, and I had never accessed the material. But that is what he ends up pleading guilty to, which means that he has to register as a sex offender.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I, again, like, I understand if people find that objectionable, but I would also, again, point out that, like, there's such a difference. You know, intent, I think, is. Is meaningfully, at least in theory, such a big part of any functioning legal system, including this one. And there's such a world of difference between seeking out images depicting minors in such a context and buying publications, especially quantity that you don't have the capacity to, before you purchase, go through and evaluate or really any way a lot of the time of determining that everything was produced ethically and is on the up and up and that everyone is over 18. This is famously a problem with Tracy Lord's career because she made so many porn movies before. I feel like an old person saying porn movies, I don't know. But she acted in a lot of porn before she turned 18. And so retroactively, all of that became, I think, technically child pornography. But nobody involved in making it. Well, probably. I mean, you know, I'm sure people. I'm sure there were whispers, but she had forged materials. She had, you know, had an age that she was pretending to be. It's just what happened. It's how things went. And so retroactively, things fall into a different category once people know what they know than they seem to initially. So just to say that it's. Nothing about his intent, I think very clearly was proved by the case or what he had in his house. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I mean, again, it's like, if you feel differently, that's totally. I mean, I. It's such a. I think, like, it's such a difficult thing to talk about because everyone's gonna react to the story differently. It's very personal.

[Sarah Marshall]

But pursuing less detail is not. Is not the answer. And, yeah, I think in. In a state of fear, we can be persuaded to want, you know, to consent to having less information, but we always need more.

[Jamie Loftus]

And what I think is indisputable is that there were very political reasons for doing this. It was done by a recently, recently elected city attorney named Rocky decadilla, who had stated that child welfare was one of his big issues. And at this point, Paul Rubens was a. You know, proven to be a viable public punching bag, like this was. This was an easy win for this city attorney. And so I have a lot of cynicism about it. And it. It was extremely difficult and painful for him. Not to mention that after this, he ends up his father, who is in the idf. His father's dying. Paul goes down to Florida and is his caretaker for the end of his life, which makes me cry. I didn't know that he did that. And I was like, we're. We're like the same. But his dad is actively dying as this obscenity case is going on. And so he has to go back to his father. Passes away when he has to fly back to LA for a couple of days to deal with this. And so he's just at an extreme low. And for the first time, he really, like, he makes a big public appearance as himself to defend himself, because in 1991, he goes on the VMAs as peewee, but here it's like the crime he's being accused of is severe, that he needs to show up as Paul Rubens.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And he does. And he is emphatic of his innocence he is asked directly, I think on cnn, he says emphatically, no, I was not in possession. I feel like I live in a country where I can collect what I want to collect as long as I'm not hurting anyone or exploiting children, which I am not. So he publicly defends himself, but the damage is done for the next again, ten years or so.

[Sarah Marshall]

It.

[Jamie Loftus]

This haunts him towards the end of his life. He has a late career resurgence in the. Mostly because of now there's this like, you know, the Judd Apatows of the world who grew up watching Pee Wee are now making movies and want to make movies with him. I think Judd Apatow, Paul Rust, like that whole kind of like Gen X comedy guy, they all want to work with Peewee and they want Peewee to get out of the house, basically because, you know, Paul's very introverted.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's the thing about kids. They grow up and they make movies and.

[Jamie Loftus]

And don't we love that? And so with the help of sort of that cohort, he brings Pee Wee's Playhouse to Broadway in 2011 with a lot of the original cast.

[Sarah Marshall]

Just.

[Jamie Loftus]

It goes super well. He's very encouraged by it. There was a one last Pee Wee movie that is okay, that came out in 2016 on Netflix, which is. So it's like a sort of big return to pop culture. The movie isn't a big hit. It's not great. But he's back, you know, like, he's. He's fully back and that. That. But. But even that. Like, keep in mind, this is 12 years after the obscenity case, so there are large chunks of time where he is mainly, it seems like, focused on his friends and his family. And then the last thing of mention is this documentary that he worked on or that he didn't. Well, it's Complicated is directed by Matt Wolf, who is a queer filmmaker who grew up as a Peewee kid. And it was like his big dream to make this documentary about him. Okay, so. So this documentary sort of starts taking shape, I think like around 2020ish. Matt Wolf is sending messages. He's like, hey, what if you did, like, he writes apart a whole section of this because this documentary was in production right up until and after Paul Rubens died. And just to like, really pull into focus how private he was. No one knew he was sick. He was struggling with cancer for the last six years of his life. The entire production of this documentary. The director found out that he had died from the news. He had no idea there's this wow, incredible quote from Paul that is like the key to keeping a secret is to tell nobody. And, and he was really good at that because he, he, he was sick for the last, you know, half decade of his life. Which explains and doesn't explain, I think some of it's just who he is, how he acts through this documentary. It's his first time, obviously publicly stating he's gay. The director doesn't realize that this documentary is almost certain to come out once Paul isn't there. Yeah, I basically, he and the director have this very complicated, drawn out relationship where Paul, as he always has been, is obsessed with control and is really threatened by losing control of how he's perceived, which given his history, could not make more sense. But he's basically feuding with this documentary director who loves him the entire time because he's not comfortable with giving the creative reins or his narrative over to someone else because he's never shared any of this before. No one knew that his relationship with Guy existed. No one knew that he did drag. No one knew any of this.

[Sarah Marshall]

And yet he documented it all.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, it was all in these boxes. Right? Like, yeah, Matt Wolf wrote an essay about making this because you can see, you should watch the documentary. Paul is, can be very combative. He sometimes kind of bullies Matt and he's like, why should I listen to you? I've watched all your documentaries and I only liked one and it was only sort of. And I was like, whoa. I would walk into traffic like Matt Wolf, spiritually strong. I would not have survived that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Change your name, move to another country. Yeah, right.

[Jamie Loftus]

But he's very, he's very irritated that he cannot have the control over this documentary. He tells Matt Wolf, I don't want to be depicted as a gay icon, but I do want to come out in the documentary. He's very particular about how he wants his story framed in a way that is unfortunately kind of impossible. Right. Eventually, by the time the documentary is done, he's being a pill about signing the release. So he's done about 40 hours of interviews, but he still is holding on to maybe I won't let you air it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

He and the director have a falling out. He and Paul stop speaking for five months. It seems like the documentary is not going to happen. And then Paul sends him a happy 40th birthday text because even the, like, pettiest thing in the world will not stop the birthday text from coming from Paul Rubens, which I think is so beautiful.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And then at that point, Paul says Okay, I'm ready to talk. After five months, he says to Matt Wolf, I might not be able to stay as involved as I hoped, but I know you'll make the film we discussed. I'm sorry that I was so emotional these past few years. It's so sad. I'm sorry if I did things that upset you. You didn't do anything wrong. I trust you. And he died the next day.

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow. Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

And so the last thing I wanted to share about our friend Paul is. Or sorry, I don't. I don't know that he. He died shortly after.

[Sarah Marshall]

Mm.

[Jamie Loftus]

But the day before he died, he never gave another interview. They never finished the interviews that Matt Wolf wanted to do. But Paul recorded a video on his phone at his house the day before he died. And I wish I could give you a hug, Sarah. I'm so sad, but I think it's just best listened to.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[C]

More than anything, the reason I wanted to make a documentary was to let people see who I really am and how painful and difficult it was to be labeled something that I wasn't. The moment I heard somebody labeled me as. I'm just gonna say it, a pedophile I knew was gonna change everything, moving forward and backwards. I wanted to talk about and have some understanding of what it's like, be labeled a pariah, to have people scared of you or unsure of you or untrusting or to look at what your intentions are through some kind of filter. That's not true. I wanted people to understand that occasionally, where there is smoke, there isn't always fire. I wanted somehow for people to understand that my whole career, everything I did and wrote, was based in love and my desire to entertain and bring glee and creativity to young people and to everyone.

[Jamie Loftus]

And that's it. What can be said is that at the end of his life, Paul was in a good relationship. He was surrounded by his friends. He always had his community. He was never alone. But this is that. That footage just came out a couple weeks ago. How people found out he passed at the time was from an Instagram post that his. I think his assistant posted. And his message at the time was, please accept my apology for not going public with what I've been facing the last six years. I have always felt a huge amount of love and respect from my friends, fans, and supporters. I have loved you all so much and enjoyed making art for you. And. I don't know, but I think that the message that he sends Matt Wolf is so telling of, like, where he was at the end of his life and, and what was on his mind. And it makes me really sad for him in some ways, but also like he lived a really rich life in spite of how terribly he was treated sometimes by the media, by other people. I don't know it. That just really struck me. And. And I love him.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I love him too. Now that's Paul Rubens. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Everything I do, it is, I don't know, like now, unfortunately, more relevant than ever that if you have queer people in any sector, but certainly working with children, working to, you know, do what he said to sort of work from a place of love and entertainment and people creativity and whimsy, that you will be the one who is more frequently accused of being dangerous to children than people who actually are.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know. Like, any life is complicated and there's often great things lying right next to awful things that you can't really imagine going through. But I feel like. I think what sticks out to me of what you've told me is that you have someone who was so well known and so beloved, but also unable to, I don't know, maybe more able to express his true self through a character than in his actual life. And having those outlets, at least for the time that we have them, is, you know, the creativity and the sort of worlds we create through this discomfort in our own lives can be so beautiful and give so much to the people who grow up with them and who need them. But also there's still, I don't know, to me, that core sadness of I'm just, for whatever reason, needing to live in sex secrecy until the very end and also being encouraged to do that at various intervals by the world.

[Jamie Loftus]

You put it so beautifully. And I think of like, how many seminal creators of children's work were closeted queer people. I think of my favorite. I mean, my favorite artists as kids was like Edward Gorey, Maurice Sendak, Arnold Lobel, all queer men that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, Tommy DePaula, Tommy DePaul of.

[Jamie Loftus]

Of. Of a similar generation that I think also what peewee was that Paul was experiencing, I still can't separate it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Was generational, where even though by the time he died, it was not easy, but. But easy, er, and quite different to live as an out queer person as a. Would have been when he was the same age. I feel like he was still, because of the media narratives that existed around him, he was treated with the same level of homophobia that existed in 1991 forever.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And, yeah, the narrative around him was so persistent. And it didn't grow or really reevaluate in the way that you would. That he deserved for it too.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And so like, all of those quotes that he has about like, you know, he was kind of frozen in time in this, in this weird way. And it's heartbreaking. I mean that I just, I think that all of the fans of his work ultimately lost a lot of other creative creativity from him because it wasn't possible, it wasn't accepted. And I don't know. Yeah, I, I.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know. Yeah, he deserved better.

[Jamie Loftus]

He deserved better and he still managed to do so much. It's like, I think PE is like one of the greatest comedic creations in the history of the world. And you can feel his influence in so much and I don't know, I just, I just love him. The secret word is Paul Rubens forever.

[Sarah Marshall]

What we've learned is that we just, we love people. We love Paul Rubens. See, I'm doing it too. We do. And we love Pee Wee Herman. And I don't know, I think artists, art kind of shows, especially when we're young, shows us how many different ways life can be and how, how much more there is to the world than what the people in our community are willing or able to show us. And I feel like you're much like the Holy Spirit carrying Paul Rubens within you now.

[Jamie Loftus]

And whatever you do, I mean, watching the documentary, I'm like, I don't know if he would have liked me, but I like him so much, I don't care.

[Sarah Marshall]

The Julie and Julia effect, you're like, I don't care. I don't even care if you like me because you've inspired me for my whole life and you can't even take it back now. So. Haha.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's true. What are you gonna do? So, yeah, that, that's, that's the story of Paul. Long may he live.

[Sarah Marshall]

Jamie, you do so much great stuff. Tell us about some of that stuff.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh boy, you can I. My book just came out in paperback, Raw Dog, the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. They. I have several podcasts, one of which is currently on hiatus, but 16th minute of fame is where every week we. I interview a past main character of the Internet. It is a show very inspired by this, as are so many things I've.

[Sarah Marshall]

Done because all our shows are holding hands.

[Jamie Loftus]

You're just a brilliant ray of light and it is the, I don't know, my way of trying to let Internet characters of the day say their piece. Yeah, Reflect on what it's like to be overexposed. And then there's the Bechtel cast where we talk about movies every week. And there's also. I am the producer of a show called we the Unhoused that is bi weekly. My friend Theo Henderson hosts it. It is one of the only podcasts, I think possibly the only podcast that is about issues that affect the unhoused, told by currently or formerly unhoused people. So if you are curious about that, which you should, you should check it out. It's a great shop.

[Sarah Marshall]

Thank you just for, for doing what you do. And yeah, everybody read Raw Dog. If you haven't yet, get a nice paperback. It's such a good gift. Just give it to everybody.

[Jamie Loftus]

Fold it up, fuck it up. That's what it's for.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's a travelogue. It's a feelings book. It's a food book, it's a funny book. It's a book that'll make you cry. It's everything you want from a book. It's the Jane Eyre of hot dog books. I don't know what to tell you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thankfully, there's just the one. It's whatever you want it to be. I love you, Sarah.

[Sarah Marshall]

I love you, Jamie. You're the best. You're going to go do another show right now, cuz that's how you do it. And you are amazing. And thank you for telling me the story. And if you weren't so busy, I would have you on the show 25 times a year. I mean, I could always just quit.

[Jamie Loftus]

My job, you know. Yeah, I'm always, I'm always was on the brink. Just let me know.

[Sarah Marshall]

Come, come live on this couch with me. And that was our episode. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much to Jamie Loftus for guesting and for sharing this story and her dedication and love to this subject and to anything else that she explores in her work. You can find her at 16th minute, the Bechdel Cast, my year in Mensa, so many other great shows. Ghost Church is another one. We are a very ghosty show. And boy, does she do great work with ghosts and the living too. And of course you can read her book, Raw Dog now out in paperback. Thank you, of course, to Miranda Zickler for editing and producing. And thank you to Carolyn Kendrick for editing and producing. Sam.