Dan Harris (3:35)

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Devin Berry (5:49)

Good to be here.

Dan Harris (5:50)

I used to, way back, I mean, this podcast has been around for a minute at the beginning for many years. I would always start the the show with the same question, which is how did you get into meditation? I stopped that for a variety of reasons. But you actually have a really good story of how you got into meditation. So I'm going to resuscitate this tradition with you. So can you tell that story?

Devin Berry (6:11)

Yeah. So there's a couple different things that allowed me to find meditation. I think one was definitely life wasn't going so well and I probably wasn't the happiest, friendliest of people. Pretty prickly, aversive personality. And I think at the encouragement of some friends, seeking out meditation and then eventually seeking out meta meditation to soothe some of that or just, you know, allow myself to get back into my body a little bit or at least allow the anger, that energy to not be completely and totally unchecked. That was one arena. I also had another arena of traveling as a young person way back when and having a friend of a friend who OD'd and sent me into a tailspin of grief and sadness and all of that. And I was a young person. So in returning back to the States, was pretty lost and was actually looking for something to help me out. At that time I wasn't interested in going to therapy. I wanted something to do. And again, someone suggested meditation. I lived not far from the San Francisco Zen center, decided to go there a couple of times, but I went during the week when it wasn't open to the public and so you could go in, but there was no instruction. So it's just a bunch of bald people in black robes facing the wall. And so as a 20 something year old, felt a little culty and strange and odd, so I skipped out on that. So mostly read books and then eventually found an MBSR class. I found spirit rock and Jack's teachings and sort of, those were a couple of the arenas.

Dan Harris (7:49)

Yeah, Jack being Jack Kornfield, mbsr, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, which is the kind of secular version of Buddhist meditation. And yes, you also referenced meta meditation, which I want to spend quite a bit of time on. But before we get to that, let me just stay with you for a second. You mentioned that anger was a prominent part of your psychological mix. What can you trace that to.

Devin Berry (8:10)

If anything, I trace that to. Well, personally, things not going my way, just sort of feeling that I disappointed parents, let family down, let myself down. I was pretty competitive person, and at some point things sort of got away from me and I. I took everything quite personally and my anger sort of grew and grew. And of course, along with the normal societal things, things that come along with being in this incarnation, this body that I'm in. So you add all of that mixed together, it was quite a cocktail of anger. It was a pretty nasty person. And it really came to a head as I was taking the train from near the beach in San Francisco, downtown to work every day. I just noticed that by the time. My 30, 45 minute train ride, by the time I got off the train in downtown San Francisco, I was tight, like, physically tight. Looking at me, if I had a mirror, there was probably a bit of a scowl on my face as well. I knew everyone else's story. I knew what they were doing and they were stopping me and on and on and on. That's really where I was. You know, it was hypercritical voices turned on myself and turned on other people. And at some point I could just notice people didn't want to hang out with me, they didn't want to be around. I wasn't the kind of guy you'd invite to a party at that time, for sure. I needed something.

Dan Harris (9:32)

Do I have it right that one of the initial recommendations, vis a vis meditation, came to you while you were at a Grateful Dead show?

Devin Berry (9:39)

Oh, yeah. That was the very first time that I actually had heard of meditation, was sitting in the back of a van with someone who had just come back from India, who, turns out knew nothing about meditation, but was teaching us everything about meditation.

Dan Harris (9:55)

I've played that role before.

Devin Berry (9:58)

Yeah, I step into that role occasionally. I was more intrigued with his travels to India than anything. But, you know, he did actually, for a few minutes there, teach us some breathing. Breathing in and out, breathing at the belly. And I found it interesting and I took that into the show. It was New Year's Eve, 1985, Oakland Coliseum, and at some point in time, the Grateful Dead, during a cover of Buddy Holly's Not Fade Away, I noticed the breath coming in and out. That was my first meditation experience. Never saw the dead sense, never saw the person who was purporting to teach us meditation sense. And I think I turned out all right.

Dan Harris (10:37)

It seems to be going well. Okay, so let's talk about meta M E T T A loving kindness Meditation at first, I understand it, you were quite resistant to it.

Devin Berry (10:48)

Oh, yeah, I thought it was complete bs. I was convinced that it was something made up by some hippies in Marin county, in California at Spirit Rock. I just. I couldn't imagine that this was actual part of some ancient spiritual teachings. I didn't believe it. And I think that was also probably mostly due to the fact that it was the thing that I most needed. And I had noticed in a few of the Metta sittings on retreats I started to go to. I think I probably noticed some emotion beginning to bubble up, and I think that scared me. So I tended to stay away. If I saw on the listing that Metta was at 3 o', clock, then that was always a convenient time for me to go for, at that time, a jog or go for a walk. I skipped it. And I think even too, in hearing some of the teachers talk about it or teach it, it just. It sounded. You know, I taught kindergarten for a short amount of time, and it reminded me of some of the ways that I talked to kindergarten students. And it really just really got under my skin. I think it was what I most needed. It was the energy, the support that I most needed in the world. And I rejected it at every single turn. And then I think at some point, I don't know if it was listening to Sharon maybe, and she used a bit of an instruction, one that I still use now, of really looking at the phrases as pointers and really guiding myself to direct the attention underneath the words themselves, you know, to just underneath the concepts, to be able to offer the phrases in the same way that I'm breathing. So resting the attention on the phrases in the same way that I rest the attention on the breath. So all of those were some practical things that when I tried those, I felt like I was sort of on my way. And I sort of gave up the idea that I needed to have some grand catharsis or breakthrough in order to be successful.

Dan Harris (12:45)

I have a bunch of plus ones to everything you just said. But before I start trading experiences with you, maybe it would make sense for you to describe and define the practice and the term Metta.

Devin Berry (12:58)

So Metta in the Buddhist cosmology is one of the four Brahma vihars, these divine abodes, these qualities of the heart. So Metta is this quality of the heart of well wishing, wishing ourselves and others well, success, loving, kindness, friendliness, benevolence, goodwill. And I often don't break it down to one of those words. I sort of, again, I Used somewhere in the arena of goodwill, friendliness, loving kindness, benevolence, use all of those things. And so in the formal practice itself. So if you're sitting on your cushion or walking out and about in the streets, then classically, there are some phrases that one might use. May I be happy and peaceful. May I be safe and protected. And actually, I won't even give the classical phrases, since people get hung up on those. What I found most helpful is to create or customize some phrases that make sense for you, that have meaning for you, that you understand. So I use may I be happy and peaceful. I've been using those for years and years and years. But happiness, I don't necessarily really easily relate to the word happiness. I think I'm relating more to the word joy and contentment. But may I be happy, may I be peaceful. There's a rhythm in there. May I be safe and may I be protected. May I live with ease and well being. Really, the focus on that is ease. Again, the phrases are pointers. So I will initially use the phrase, but I'm trying to connect with the sense and feeling underneath those phrases and those words. And sometimes the phrases or words dissolve into one word. So maybe it's happy, peaceful, but I'm really connecting to that. I'm embodying that sense of peacefulness. I learned early on, and many people have brought this to me, that it can be rote or dry in doing meta practice. So I often have started meta practice with a little bit of joy. So I need something to sort of prime the pump. And so I often start with a little bit of humor, a little bit of joy, to sort of reframe things. And I tell this in every meta overview that I give on retreat. I use the same story. I've been using the same story for years. And it's my brother and I traveling with my mom and dad from the Midwest to New York. They're showing us New York, their favorite place. They're really excited we're going to get to see it. It's the early 70s. We get close to New York. My mom and dad are looking out the window. My brother and I are playing in the back. And my mom's like, turn around, look out the window. She's trying to show us these buildings and this bridge. And as I said, it's the early 70s, and my mom is upset now that we don't seem to be excited about this. But being the early 70s, both my parents had gigantic afros. We couldn't actually see what they were looking at because of the afros. I can see it as plain as day and it's ridiculous and absurd and it puts me in an easy, easy place. I was maybe 7 years old when that happens. Still tell myself the same story. There's a little bit of a smile, There's a little bit of an easing back. And then I start my mental practice.

Dan Harris (16:07)

I learned meta or loving kindness from a teacher named Spring Washam.

Devin Berry (16:11)

I don't.

Dan Harris (16:11)

I don't know if you know her.

Devin Berry (16:12)

Dear friend. Yes.

Dan Harris (16:14)

Okay. So Spring, she's. I think we can both agree she's terrific. She's been on the show many times. I'll drop some links to prior episodes with Spring. We have a pretty special relationship. She's. She likes to make fun of me. She teaches just. This is picking up on your point about starting with some joy because the. The practice can seem. I sometimes call it like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head. It can feel a little forced or treacly or whatever. Whatever she has. And I. I think she's not the only one who does this, but she has her students. Start with an easy person. What I do is I front load with two easy people. One of our cats, we have four cats. So I just pick one, whoever I'm who hasn't taken a dump on my pillow recently. And then I do my son and then I go into the rest of the rotation. And. Yeah, just for people who are new to the practice. Devin just gave a great description. Essentially, you're starting by visualizing either yourself. Classically, you start with yourself. Western teachers have kind of inverted it. So you start with an easy person, then you go to yourself. It's kind of a contemplative bait and switch. And then you go to a mentor, and then you go to. This is the classical progression. Then you go to a neutral person, somebody you see all the time and might be tempted to overlook. Then you go to a difficult person. Not hard to find. Often the recommendation is to go with somebody mildly annoying, not, you know, like Pol Pot or homicidal maniac or whatever. And then you finish with all beings everywhere. So, yeah. Am I describing it roughly in a similar way to the way you might teach it?

Devin Berry (17:45)

Yeah, absolutely. Oftentimes it is a little bit of a story that I'll start with. And then I move to the easy being. And there are two dogs within my easy being and children. So oftentimes, before I even get to myself, then I use my mentor or benefactor just from where I came from years ago. There are so many people that have directly supported me and that have benefited from teachings and things that I use, my mentors. All of that really primes the pump so that it is much easier. Much, much easier. Not guaranteed, but it's much easier to then work with myself and work with anybody else after that point. Same progression.

Dan Harris (18:23)

A key thing that Spring pointed out to me, and you kind of hit on this, but I would love to hear you say more about it, is that you don't have to feel any

Dan Harris (Host) (18:33)

kind of way that the point here

Dan Harris (18:35)

is not to be soaring off into unconditional love.

Devin Berry (18:38)

Yeah. If that happens right off the bat, great. But I think that's a rabbit hole, a mistake that people fall into. And oftentimes I'm never practicing again. I don't understand why I have to do this is because they're wanting, right, to be bathed in brilliant white light, just being lifted slightly 6 inches off the floor. There are plenty of times when I've done it and the feeling ends up being, right now I feel okay. Right now I feel like, I'm not going to harm you. Right now I'm not going. That's enough. It's a feeling of non ill will, non hatred. It can be that there are times, right. The juices get flowing and it feels quite lovely and warm. And it feels like, you know, I want to gift everything to everyone. And I'm genuinely wishing everyone goodwill and happiness. And then there are those times when I'm just at balance. I'll be able to walk out of the door and I may have a slight smile on my face, but I won't be angry, I won't be upset. I won't be screaming at you in the car or anywhere else. I mean, given the world we live in, I think that's actually, for me, that's good enough. I think that's actually great. Non separation.

Dan Harris (19:51)

Non separation. Because our culture is driving our heads up our own asses all the time. Because we live in an individualistic culture. We live in a social media culture where we're all encouraged to be creating our own brands so we feel separate from and afraid of other people in this practice is like. Like an antidote.

Devin Berry (20:10)

Absolutely. Absolutely. I've noticed a few times recently in doing the practice, I was in a particular area of the country that was a little bit difficult for me just in terms of some of the social and political messages that were coming my way there. And in doing meta practice and leaving my hotel room and encountering a number of people, what was there for me Was, you know, the folks that I was encountering and speaking with wanted the best for themselves and their children. Same as I did. Saw a guy holding his partner's hand as they're walking down the street. Older COUPLE I saw someone taking their kids to school and I'm like we're all wanting the best for ourselves and everyone else. So for me in cultivating method is really helping that to be more of my default rather than get away from me or you need to stay on your side of the road or town and I need to stay here. I think what I've seen over the years there, I'm not as quickly cultivating these separating thoughts or separating ideas of really sort of isolating myself. I'm not saying we're all going to jump into holding hands and in the circle game and singing Kumbaya. It's not that. But that I see you as another human being on the planet and I can share space with you and you know, we have children and we have all sorts of differences but you know of those differences can be celebrated at different times and we can agree and we can agree to disagree but I don't need to hate you. I don't need to have you gone and me here. I believe Metta helps with some of that. Right? It's that thread that brings together some of the I guess the teachings and social possibility of social transformation.

Dan Harris (21:49)

Doesn't what you're describing seem super useful in a nasty presidential election cycle?

Devin Berry (21:58)

I believe that it is crucial for anyone that is already a practitioner, whether they're secular or whether in the Buddhist realm. I would think that this year might be the year to really ramp up on compassion practice and meta practice without a doubt. And not as a way because people hear that and they automatically think oh, you're just. You want to paper it all over with love. No, no, that's not at all what I'm talking about. Again, it's back to non separation. Just cultivating that. If anything, I do think it's a crucial thing that I would love to see more and more of that amongst folks in my circle and otherwise.

Dan Harris (22:36)

Tell me if you agree with what I'm about to say because I hear this too. This idea that you're papering over differences. Your cultivation of non separation is basically like co signing on the other side's terrible ideas or whatever or. Or being resigned, passive, etc.

Dan Harris (Host) (22:54)

Etc.

Dan Harris (22:54)

In my view. Or the way it's the way meta practice has worked for me at least is. Or I think it's worked this Way I could be fooling myself is it doesn't lead me to feel passive or resigned or disengaged. It helps me stay engaged, but not from a place of hatred. That's a cleaner burning fuel that's going to help me be more effective in the long run. How does that go down with you?

Devin Berry (23:21)

Oh, 100%. I am in agreement. Yeah, that is it. It helps me be in the world. It helps us to be in the world. It helps us to engage with the world. It actually, the metta practice allows me at times to take a little break from this idea that I need to take care of everything at all times for everyone. It allows me to step back for a moment and then step forward. It allows me to notice more quickly those separating thoughts and ideas, that little bit of ill will and hatred that bubbles up, you know, again, constantly wanting to incline the mind towards the more wholesome or gladdening the mind. And that is not about being passive. It's actually, for me, it's about being more engaged. The more that I'm doing these practices, the more likely it is that I can openly and easily advocate for whatever it is that I need to advocate for to be engaged in the world and not turn away from it. I feel actually quite fortified with the Brahmvahara practices that I can look at anything and not turn away. Turn away in fear, turn away in hatred.

Dan Harris (24:31)

Let me just pick up on that term, Brahma vihara. You referenced it earlier, but it might be worth going one click deeper on it. So I'll say a little bit and then maybe you can just pick up and correct any errors I've made and just expand upon it. But as you referenced earlier, there are these four sets of practices, four states of mind for which there are practices in the Buddhist tradition. They're called the divine abodes. Classically, one of them is metta or loving kindness. The other is compassion or karuna. Karuna and metta are words in the ancient language of Pali. The third is sometimes called sympathetic joy or it's like the opposite of schadenfreude. It's being happy because other people are happy. And so that's sometimes called mudita M U D I T a And then the fourth is equanimity or upeka. Can you say a little bit more about this family of both qualities and practices?

Devin Berry (25:27)

Yeah. Thank you. So each of these qualities of the heart states of mind, these four brahmviharas are, you know, come to us from the, from the Buddhist cosmology, Buddhist teachings. They Work hand in hand. So if I'm looking at any of them, there is a thread of one or two or all of the others embedded in some of the other practices. So looking at equanimity, which in my mind is the ability, the capacity to stand in the middle of all of this, this year that we have, all that's going on, it's me being able to stand in the middle and not just completely collapse. And how do I not completely collapse in that? It's all of the other three. So in any of the practices that I'm doing, there is a thread of joy. So it's not always sympathetic or resonant joy. Sometimes it's. It's just joy. So there's a thread of that that I try to include in everything that I'm doing. And Metta wishing myself and others kindness, friendliness, to have that run through everything else that's there. Compassion comes about. Even when I see those that may be doing some difficult, harmful and challenging things, then, yeah, of course, like with anyone else, I have anger at times, rage that comes up. But there's also in consistently practicing compassion that comes up as well. Because I've oftentimes have seen that there is something going on in this being being's life to cause them to cause this amount of harm. And so I tried to touch in on that. And touching in on that doesn't mean that I'm now not going to do anything. Sometimes you need to advocate, sometimes this involves lawyers and voting and all sorts of things, right? That needs to happen. It doesn't mean those things go away. I can still have compassion for someone and know that they also need to face the consequences of whatever it is that they're involved in as well. So each of those practices are sort of. I see this almost like a ball of just light reflecting on each of them at different times. And I do practice them individually. Metta is the foundational practice. So it is one that I'm formally and informally practicing all the time. But I have plenty of retreat time where I do the others practicing consistently. Even if you're not formally practicing any of these, they're going to arise, right? If I'm not formally practicing Metta, or not formally practicing compassion, just doing my insight practice, my vipassana practice, being with the breath at the nostrils or the belly or the chest. If I'm there consistently and the mind starts to quiet down, then the heart starts to open up, then those different qualities arise anyway. So you get to see them that way as well. It can Be both seen and known formally and practice in that way. And we also experience those through our insight practice as well.

Dan Harris (28:20)

Can you say a little bit more about how we can. You taught us how to do meta. You know, envision the classical progression of beings. Easy, self, mentor, neutral, difficult, all beings. And then the four classical phrases are maybe happy, safe, healthy, live with ease. Can you just give us the tldr on how we would practice Karuna, mudita, and Upeka?

Devin Berry (28:45)

Yeah, with karuna or compassion. Oftentimes I would use the phrase, may I be held in the heart of compassion, or may I be held in the arms of compassion. But lately I've realized that, you know, I can go to a real conceptual place with that. So typically it is a situation or beings coming to mind, and in just bringing to the mind this twinge in the heart that happens of wanting this person to be well, wishing this person well, comes to mind, and that is compassion. What I'm touching in that moment, I'm touching that person's suffering, or I'm touching my own suffering in that moment. And as I'm resting there, that feeling that I have there, that's compassion. Saying, oh, that's compassion. I actually don't even need a phrase for this. I can sit with that. I can breathe in and out with that. I can know sensations in the body happening. It's touching, whatever that situation is. And it goes from like really being. Being able to sit in that and not turn away from it, to realize that this is difficult, this is incredibly hard. And at some point, right, hopefully this moves us into action so that it's not just, oh, I feel for you, but it's really like, I'm really feeling for you. And once you. This is all said and done, my formal session, you know, over time, then what is it that I can do to help and support? Sometimes with equanimity, all that I can do is to bear witness. And can I do that without having the shame and guilt of, oh, my God, I didn't do anything. Sometimes what we can do is to bear witness to another's suffering. That can be a hard one from folks because we want to take care of everything. And sometimes there are things that we cannot take care of. Sometimes things are just as they are right in that very moment. And it doesn't mean that I don't care and doesn't mean that I don't want to do anything. It means in this moment, I'm just accepting the reality of this situation.

Dan Harris (30:50)

I'm just curious technically how you do that without the phrases, maybe my powers, almost certainly my power of concentration is a lot less impressive than yours. But in order to not drift off into who knows what, I kind of need some phrases to connect me to what I'm supposed to be doing.

Devin Berry (31:11)

Yes, that makes sense. So if I'm sitting formally, you know, home or retreat or somewhere else, and I'm doing compassion practice. Yeah, that feeling, you know, I could bring up someone and that could be with me for a while, and then you're wondering about lunch or whatever else is going to happen in that moment. And that is when those phrases can be helpful. I've used the phrase and sometimes it hurts, or I've used the phrase I'm so sorry. And it's one of those things where it's like I'm really tapping into. And sometimes that is the hand on the heart, which, when I began this practice, was something that would send me running from the room to actually do that. So, you know, for me, at this moment, where I am in life now, that actually hurts. I could, when I do put my hand on the heart and say, I'm so sorry. I really am feeling that, and I'm really meaning that. And I think it's important for people to customize phrases and use phrases that have a meaning and understanding for you. A lot of people get tripped up on the phrases. They're trying for the perfect phrase, or they're trying to create a haiku or a poem or a song or something else, rather than just one or two really simple words that have a deep meaning for them.

Dan Harris (32:28)

Okay, so that's compassion meditation. A classical phrase you can use in compassion meditation is may you be free from suffering. What about mudita or sympathetic joy? How do you do that one?

Devin Berry (32:41)

Yeah, so that one typically is I am using may your joy continue, you know, or may you not be separated from joy and contentment. May your joy increase. I use those. I was working with someone recently. They were trying to incorporate laughter into doing that. It was a difficult one to figure out. But for me, mostly it is bringing to mind. So if I'm bringing to mind a situation of someone that is doing well and quite successful and. And I managed to not be in a place of jealousy and envy, then I can actually say, you know, may this joy continue, may your success continue. And typically, the mudita practice, I've noticed in my own practice has been more effective or worked well or I've been able to cultivate it more the more that I've been doing metta. So I oftentimes will roll from my Metta practice into joy practice. I'm sort of riding on that wave because there will be some feelings of warmth there that's easy to roll into joy at that point.

Dan Harris (33:50)

Yes, me too. And the cool thing about Mudita practice is that I can bring to mind somebody even if I'm actively very jealous. Especially if I'm actively very jealous of somebody. I could just do the practice. It doesn't matter whether I'm still jealous. It's like a bicep curl. It's like just any form of exercise. This is a mental exercise and it's just nudging you a little bit closer to the non hostility, non envy that you referenced earlier. You don't have to expect a miracle. It's just a messy marginal improvement over time.

Devin Berry (34:25)

Yes, messy marginal improvement over time, absolutely. I like that. That's what I've scene with the Mudita practice. And you know, in my Mudita practice, without a doubt, I am surrounding it with all sorts of stories and humor and joy around it. I'm really priming the pump in that way. And then when I practice it formally, I sit down from that place of recalling these bits and pieces of friends and family and others that have had some joy and happiness of late or anywhere down the road. And oftentimes it's actually picturing them. And sometimes I like, I picture, I see that smile or that laughter, a little bit of the conversation or something. And it's not wallowing and staying in that content like just creating a movie out of content. It's the initial flashed memory or visualization or a little bit of laughter or smile. And I sit with that for a while and see if I can allow that to grow. Sometimes that's easier done and other times not so much.

Dan Harris (35:28)

And let's just to round this out, can you talk about, you know, what the role of equanimity is in all of this and how we can practice it on the cushion.

Devin Berry (35:35)

Yeah. So equanimity for me, there's a word, I like this translation, probably heard it from Joseph Tatramajata and I remember it because why wouldn't you remember Tatramajata standing in the middle of all of this? That's been the most helpful thing in my practice for me to frame whatever is going on in my own practice, in life, in the world. That word comes to mind for me and it's wanting to just pause for a moment and take a look. I'm not trying to in that moment strategize or figure Something out. But I'm just pausing in that moment to acknowledge this is happening. This is what is happening right now. Before getting into, okay, what do we need to do now? How do we need to rectify this? How do we need to change it? It's just there's got to be some acknowledgment and a few breaths and a pause and reflect on, this is the reality. This is the present moment experience as it is, right? Rather than have something come to view and immediately we're off into fabricating some other kind of stories or trying to create something else and not acknowledging and being in the present moment. So for me, equanimity is being in the present moment, sitting there for a while, allowing whatever feelings to come up to be there, and just sitting with those for a moment. The figuring out is going to happen. But can we just sit there for a while, take a look at this? And of course, we usually don't want to, right? Because this oftentimes involves something quite difficult, and we don't want to see it or face it like anyone else. I'm not really hyped up on experiencing shame and guilt and fear or any of those things. And what keeps me at awe and keeps me quite humbled in the practice is that through mindfulness, I have the ability and have the capacity to just be with whatever. Whatever the feeling is. Oh, wow. Shame feels like this. I feel it slightly as a little bit of a fog in front of the face here, right? Egg on the face. It's kind of like the dog with the head down and the eyes looking up. There's that sense of feeling of guilt that's there. Equanimity is, for me, is being with those things. Can I be with this? Strategizing, figuring out, planning. I can do that after. But let's sit here for a moment. Sit in the fire.

Dan Harris (38:11)

Can you say a little bit more about how we can practice it? Like what the formal practice would look like to develop this skill?

Devin Berry (38:18)

So the formal practice as different things. Through the Thich Nhat Hanh community, there was a thing of being rooted like a mountain. So allowing ourselves to sit like a mountain. And then we were to bring something forward, bring a situation or being or something that's been difficult, and we want to do a formal equanimity practice with. And so it would be me sort of just being solid in my posture and being with the breath. And after doing that for a while, then it would be visualizing, in a sense, this challenge or this difficult moment or whatever it is at that time. And for me, it is. And I'm saying it with a little bit of a playful spirit. I actually say the word tatramajata. It's like, ah, tatra magata. It pulls me immediately out of this place of. Because my mind goes to, okay, yeah, I'm being with this, I'm with this. I'm with this. I can be with this. But I'm strategizing the entire time. But if I'm saying that word or this is how it is right now, you know, using ajahn semido, for me, that teaching is an equanimity teaching. Right now it's like this. Right now it's like this. And that probably is the two little teachings or pith teachings that I use more than anything right now. It's like this. And Joseph saying certainty isn't an indication of truth. Those two things I don't know that I need much more than that.

Dan Harris (39:54)

For the uninitiated, the Joseph that he's referenced a couple times is Joseph Goldstein. He's a close friend and frequent flyer on the show. Let me just go back to Tatra Magata. Am I pronouncing that correctly?

Devin Berry (40:03)

Tatra Magata. Tatra Magata.

Dan Harris (40:07)

Tatra Magata.

Devin Berry (40:09)

Standing in the middle of all of this.

Dan Harris (40:10)

Yeah, it's like some sort of spell from Harry Potter.

Devin Berry (40:15)

Yes, exactly. So in my mind, that's sort of how I play with it. You know, if I'm out and about in a day, I don't know that I've said it today before we were on, but at some point in time, a few times a week, I actually say this word. It's no longer conceptual. When I'm offering that to myself or to others as a little bit of a mantra, it is referencing and giving the context of, can I be with this in this moment? This is the present moment. Can I accept the present moment as it is?

Dan Harris (40:47)

It's like an elevated ancient version of serenity.

Devin Berry (40:50)

Now. Abracadabra.

Dan Harris (Host) (40:55)

Coming up, Devin talks about the history or the mythology of how the Buddha invented meta practice. We talk about the meta sutta, which

Dan Harris (41:04)

is in the Buddhist texts and is quite something to listen to. We'll share a little bit of it and talk about how to digest it.

Dan Harris (Host) (41:10)

And we'll talk about the role in

Dan Harris (41:12)

practice of generosity, otherwise known as Dana.

Dan Harris (Host) (41:17)

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Dan Harris (44:34)

Okay, well, so thank you for that tour through the Brahma Viharas. Let's just go back to Metta, which is again, loving kindness, which you've described as the kind of foundational skill here. Can you give us a history lesson? I think there's an interesting story of like how and why the Buddha invented Metta practice.

Devin Berry (44:50)

Yeah. So this wasn't in the early Buddhist teachings, but in the later Buddhist teachings there is a mythology that's given as context of how Metta came about. It's typically like 500 monks are going into a forest to practice during the rainy season, what they call the rains retreat. And the modern version of that is a three month retreat that happens at ims. So they go into this forest and the unseen beings, the forest devas and tree spirits, and all of these mythological beings and creatures are excited and happy to have them there. They're there for a little bit too long as some house guests can tend to be. And the forest beings want them gone. And so they start creating these horrible smells and sounds and scaring them. And so the monks decide that they have to go and talk to the Buddha and have him solve this and figure it out. And he tells them to just go back to the forest and keep practicing. And of course they go back and the same thing happens again. So finally they go back to the Buddha and they beg him, please, Laoist, go somewhere else. And he is now tells them that what the reason that they're unable to practice there with all of these things going on is that they don't have the protection of Metta. And so he gives them the meta sutta. So this Metta teaching, he lays out the metta teaching for them and they go back having chanted the Metta sutta. And now the forest beings and devas and tree spirits are calmed and soothed by this meta sutta. So then now they're able to practice again. And of course, by the end of the story, everyone becomes enlightened.

Dan Harris (46:38)

It's always every Buddhist story. Yeah. Like he holds up a flower, enlightenment, but he says a word, enlightenment. Okay, so I take from that, and it's not the first time I've heard the story, but I take from that that the Buddha invented this really as the antidote to fear.

Devin Berry (46:54)

Yeah, that's how I see it. So oftentimes, even when I'm talking about anger or hatred or ill will, I mean, it's ultimately getting down to fear as well. It is the antidote for that and it does seem to serve as somewhat of a protection practice as well, in a sense, just as it was laid out in that mythology. Yeah, and I don't have the actual metasuit itself handy to chant, but it is one. Oftentimes rather than use phrases, when I've been on retreat, sometimes my metta practice is actually chanting that meta sutta. And I chant the meta sutta, you know, again and again and again, chanting it over a couple of times a day, over a good period of time to the same cultivation and benefit as me offering phrases.

Dan Harris (47:45)

Let me get you to say a little bit about the meta sutta. So sutta in, in Pali and in Sanskrit it's sutra, basically scripture. So the meta sutta is basically just a teaching from the Buddha on, in this case, loving kindness. There are lots of suttas or sutras, thousands and pages of this stuff. But this is the one on meta and I actually have in front of me. So I'll read a little bit of it to you and then get you to talk about it. But here, this, these are purported to be the words of the Buddha. This is what should be done by anyone who is skilled in goodness and who knows the path of peace. Let them be able and upright, straightforward and gentle in speech, humble and not conceited, contented and easily satisfied. It goes on here. I'm going to cut the Buddhist scriptures slash. Suttas can be quite long. I'm going to cut to the part that I want to talk about. Let none deceive another or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill will, wish harm upon another, even as a mother protects with her life her child, her only child. So with a boundless heart, should one cherish all living beings radiating kindness over the entire world, spreading upwards to the skies and downwards to the depths. Okay, I'm reading this all to you because this is a very high bar and it's also for a newcomer, you know, the maybe several decades old version of me and you. It's also a little cheesy. So how are we to wrestle with that?

Devin Berry (49:13)

Day one of a retreat or day one of Metta for very new people. I probably wouldn't introduce them to this immediately. It's probably wouldn't be something I would introduce them to right off the bat. For some people this isn't going to work. I think. Right. They'd still be able to do this practice whether they know the Meta sutta or not. I like to include it, include versions of it. And oftentimes enchanting it in Pali and not in English. And I think initially for me, learning it in Pali helped me. I mean, even though I knew the English translation, there was something just in the enchanting. Something that has been chanted for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years that I found quite supportive and endearing. So I have often time to use it. As far as it being a high bar, it's just we really want to take it in small bite sized pieces. That is right. That's aspirational. If we can get there, this is the map. This is the territory that we're playing with. But the expectation shouldn't be all of that immediately. You know, can we allow it to be something that can begin to quiet this mind, to begin to open this heart just a little bit? Can we start with that easy being? Can we start with the pup and the kitty? Can we start there just with that before jumping to anything else? Oftentimes people, they'll look at that meta Sutra, they'll look at various other things in Metta and they will want, you know, you explain this like how can anyone possibly do this? And so I'm really asking them to just. Okay, can we start here? Right? That fire that you have of wanting me to explain this now gives you confirmation. Let's cool that fire first with kitty and puppy and self. Let's start there. We'll get to the others. We'll get to the others. When I first heard that story, just where my mind was then, do you know how hot my head was? I mean, this is like you would. There'd be sweat coming from my head. This was how difficult it was for me to hear any of these stories or these teachings. And 25, 30 years later, I can't imagine not being with these teachings and this practice at all.

Dan Harris (51:32)

So as for it being a high bar, just to go back to that for a second, we don't need to be daunted by it. It's just a nice north star.

Devin Berry (51:42)

It is a nice north star. It is a high bar and non ill will, non hatred and okayness. Those are immediately possibilities. So we start there.

Dan Harris (51:58)

You mentioned the role that these practices have played in your life and you ran a very interesting experiment last year, 2023.

Dan Harris (Host) (52:07)

I don't want to get to that,

Dan Harris (52:08)

but I want to stay with a few more sort of like technical ish. Questions related to Meta. One is, and I think you said this to DJ Kashmir, who is the guy who runs this show and did a pre interview with you. I think you said something to the effect of mindfulness is not a cure all. Meaning like when people get interested in meditation, generally, the first thing they're taught is mindfulness, which is, you know, watch your breath, feel your breath coming in and going out. Every time you get distracted, you start again. And in that process you develop the capacity to focus a little bit. And then every time you get distracted, you're getting familiar with the mind. So that's mindfulness, the self awareness. And so that's the general thing that you know, especially people like me who are out there in the world, like popularizing and secularizing these practices. Focus on, however, and I think this is what you were driving at in your pre interview with dj. If you focus only on that, you are missing out in it. Like the Buddha didn't just teach that he taught other things alongside of like the Brahma Viharas, like including Meta, like generosity, which you and I are going to get to, like basic ethical principles. And so I just would love to get you to say a little bit more about why this theme is so important to you.

Devin Berry (53:28)

Yeah, it is. It's really important to me as I. I feel like I've run across a good number of people that for various reasons, their own current state of mind, psychological state of mind, various things that have happened to them, meditation itself, the actual insight practice or various types of meditation have been much harder for them to access. And maybe there's particular types of trauma in their background. But what I have seen other people be able to access has been generosity or Dhamma or metta. And so oftentimes in my conversations with people or even in my engagement with students, generosity plays a huge role. And that's not just like a financial thing, but generosity of spirit, generosity of being, being your authentic self as well. And included in there. The first few folks that I ran across that were Dharma practitioners, the bulk of their practice was actually practicing metta or chanting the meta sutta and generosity let generosity came in the form of cooking for monks and nuns and monastics all over California going to different places. So their practice was generosity. Their practice was Dhamma. And I thought that was quite beautiful and practical and helpful. And I think service is included in that. And I think all of those things are a part of the path and the techniques and the meditative process is incredibly important. And it's, you know, with Me and what I do and what I love and hope most people can do that sort of thing. And there are all of these other practices that we can do as well. The 10 paramis or the 10 perfections of the heart or these other qualities of the heart are things that householders, people out and about in the world can take a look at patients. One of those generosity. There are a number of meta apnea. Loving kindness is one of those as well. But for me, being at home, generosity has been key. It's been crucial to my own practice, having that at the forefront of my mind, being a recipient of generosity and also generating generosity and keeping close to this spirit of service. Helping. Right. It's being the helper as well. All of those things are included. And oftentimes it's a little bit of a short stick on that. Right. I don't know that you're going to get thousands of people to sign up for a retreat to serve currently in society. Probably not, you know, but if you are offering them some meditation techniques that they then believe will help them to a peak experience or flow or feel better or whatever it is, yeah, they'll sign up for that. And that's important. That's great. I just really like to include generosity with what I choose to share with folks.

Dan Harris (56:28)

So the poly term for generosity is Donna D a N A. Well, how can you make that into a practice? How can you systematize Donna in your life?

Devin Berry (56:36)

Yeah, one of the ways that's been helpful to me is really looking at gratitude. So having Donna generosity be the frame, oftentimes for me it starts with where can I help or how can I help? It's those things. And oftentimes. Right. It's through my teachings, it's through meeting with students one on one with various organizations of being able to volunteer from time to time. All of those things have been done. Sometimes it is financial. And you know, I've been the benefit of running across a couple of anonymous benefactors, folks that have heard a teaching that I've given or attended a retreat and decided that they wanted to support me in being able to continue on that way. And in doing so, those have been huge acts of generosity. The impact that that has had on my life and the life of those immediately around me and students has been invaluable. It's been gigantic. And so I've tried to pass that along. Yeah, there was a time when attending any retreat to me was financial hardship for sure. So at times when I've been able to make it easier for someone else. I do. And I've noticed that it's been a shift again. And this actually like circles back to Metta as well. There's been a great shift in, in my practice by having gratitude and generosity be at the forefront. It always circles back around to Metta again. And these feelings and sense of goodwill and benevolence and kindness and friendliness arise as I'm receiving and as I'm offering as well. And the Buddhist teachings bear this out. Right in the very beginning as he was traveling around, I think one of the things, if I'm remembering it was Sujata was a lay woman. And this is before the Buddha was the Buddha, he was doing all of these aesthetic practices, wild and crazy practices, and was just on the verge of death. Then she provided him, it said in the stories, provided him with this bowl of milk rice and began which was this great act of generosity. So her providing him with this bowl of milk rice porridge is what allowed him to have enough strength to actually continue on his meditation practice, therefore becoming the Buddha. Right. This starts with an act of generosity. It's just as important as anything else.

Dan Harris (Host) (59:15)

Coming up, Devin talks about how Dana can be a form of letting go. He talks about a year long Metta and Dana experiment he ran. And we talk a little bit about

Dan Harris (59:23)

the Jhanas, which is one of these

Dan Harris (Host) (59:25)

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Dan Harris (62:50)

You know the Buddha to the extent that I've read the Suttas, sutras, scriptures, whatever you want to call them, he's really talking a lot about the bottom line here being letting go, if you want to get enlightened, that it's like a radical getting over yourself. You are supposed to abandon or let go of any attachment, let go of any, anything you're attached to, including your own sense of self. So what does being nice or being compassionate, being friendly, being generous have to do with that?

Devin Berry (63:26)

Well, I think that the sense of letting go, that sense of truly really seeing myself or seeing ourselves as a part of this interconnected web, being a part of that is letting go. For me, being nice, being kind, being good, is stepping outside of myself. It's allowing myself to not just simply acquire, acquire, obtain, obtain, obtain, obtain, but to let go and to not be attached to this idea that I need to collect everything and everybody, that I need to have everything and everybody that I can release. So it's this continual releasing of things that being nice and kind. The teachings that I've received over the years have been my own teachers and mentors being incredibly generous and nice and kind with the dedication of their own practices, right? Their direct experience and learning in their practices that they then bring to the cushion and share those reflections. To me, that is generosity, as we say in a retreat setting, you know, so how can I in kind be generous with that? I mean, the first obvious way is to continue to practice, to continue the teachings. It is to serve and volunteer. It is to support my teachers as I can, like all of those things. And all of those things feel, at least my experience has been it dissolves a little bit of this, this big eye, Devin here. It dissolves some of that. There's something that feels like it's released every time I'm in this place of the generous mind really stepping forward, it seems like that is a letting go.

Dan Harris (65:23)

I completely agree. I mean, there's a reason why it is sometimes said that the Buddha with some students started before he even taught them meditation. He taught them Dana or generosity. Because what is that if not letting go? And then, you know, you, any form of compassion or sympathetic joy or friendliness flows from that. Can you tell us about the experiment you ran in 2023 where you did like a year long Metadana jamboree? What was that all about?

Devin Berry (65:52)

Yeah, that was wanting to actually not be so tied to this identity of Devin the teacher, but really sort of getting back into continually learning and continually being a student and being really in and of the community rather than separate from it. So I just basically decided to look at the Parameese and was going to place generosity and Donna at the Forefront of that. And that all started out with having a couple of different benefactors approach me about, you know, saying that they had heard something that I had said that they were in alignment with or was meaningful for them and they wanted to help me out and support me, and they did so. And it was life changing for me. It was absolutely life changing. That allowed a tightness or difficulty or challenge that was always in the back of my mind with, you know, just practical things that I was unable to take care of, unable to support myself in that way. They made all of that possible with their own generosity. And I decided to extend that to other people, to students around me, to friends and family, and to really dive into this quality of generosity in any and everything I did. So I, you know, I've often spent most of my life living in San Francisco Bay Area. And so I'd given up my car at some point and was just taking Ubers and taxis all over the place. An act of generosity that I was doing. And really meta. I mean, they're one and the same in this thing, was getting to know the folks that I was riding with, because I'd started to notice. I'd get in the car, there would be a Buddha or Ganesh or some bells or something, was typically a fairly recent immigrant into the country.

Dan Harris (67:48)

And.

Devin Berry (67:49)

And I would talk to them about this Buddhist iconography that they had. And it always ended up always. I don't know that there was any of these times that were a difficult or challenging conversation, but I created a connection and was actually quite moving to meet just everyday people that had lives in other countries that made their way here, that were Buddhist practitioners, and to talk to them about their flavor of Buddhism and hear them or have them listen to me a little bit, and to talk about meditation or to talk about the Buddha or to talk about generosity. And oftentimes what I heard from them were bits and pieces of the parames. So when they were referencing Buddhism, they were referencing these qualities of patience, these qualities of Donna and generosity, these qualities of loving kindness. And I met some really lovely, beautiful people and found myself at some point calling on Ubers just to get in the car, to ride with someone, to have a conversation with them. If you knew where I was 25 years ago, it's like night and day. And I enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed. I thoroughly enjoyed being able to get in the car with them. I thoroughly enjoyed being able to tip as much as I possibly could in that moment to get to the ride to the cafe and invite them in. I Got to actually do all of that.

Dan Harris (69:35)

What other forms did this year long experiment take?

Devin Berry (69:37)

I think it probably deepened my relationships actually with family, partner, children, mom and dad, friends. I mean, I definitely have quite the snappy, sarcastic, dry side that I think probably rubs some of them the wrong way at times. And I think they probably saw less of that. I kind of like that part of my personality, so I'm not giving it up. But I did actually offer a little bit less and I think I allowed to just show them a little bit more of my heart and was directly generous with a number of things that I think was helpful and supportive to friends and family and folks immediately around me.

Dan Harris (70:16)

Yeah, this is a little technical. I have in mind people who are still maybe somewhat skeptical about Metta or the other Brahma Viharas as a meditation practice. But one of the things they're good for, these practices, specifically Metta, is concentration. One of the biggest obstacles that people face in meditation is that they're distracted. Focus and concentration are hard, especially now given the way the culture set up with our phones, etc. Etc. And Metta is a good way to concentrate, there's just no question about it. And it can lead to. To something called the Janas J H A N A. That's a Buddhist term of art. It's a state of high concentration or absorption that I've never achieved that is associated with like unbelievable levels of bliss and whatever.

Dan Harris (Host) (71:05)

Allegedly. And so I wonder if you could

Dan Harris (71:07)

just talk about meta as a concentration tool and how. And whether it can lead to the Jhnas and what should we think about all of that?

Devin Berry (71:14)

Yeah, Meta is a concentration practice in. Just by engaging in Metta practice again and again and again consistently with some continuity and definitely, I mean, if we're looking at something like the Jhnas or at least those really much deeper levels of unification of mind or Samadhi, gathering the mind leading to something like that. It takes quite a bit of time to actually do that. Probably a lot of folks really get tripped up on that. It's one of those things in my experience, and I am no expert on this, but in gathering the mind, I know that if I am really wanting that to happen, like if I've heard this could lead to. I could be, hey man, this is the thing. This, all that other stuff is good meta. This is the good stuff.

Dan Harris (72:03)

It's better than whip hits in the parking lot at a Dead concert.

Devin Berry (72:07)

Exactly, exactly, exactly. You want that experience, Come see me. My experience is if you're really wanting it, that Bad, it's going to get in the way. First of all, there's so much greed in the mind there. They're not actually going to be able to cultivate Metta to really be able to quiet the mind and open the heart to actually allow that to happen. I believe that the best way to experience Metta and Samadhi or even getting into that arena would be to just cultivate Metta for the sake of metta. If you have a good amount of time to do so and to really dive in doing so and see what unfolds from that, knowing that it's there, knowing that that's possibility is enough. If I'm wanting that to really happen, I have to have this experience. I'm willing to pay more for this experience. I'm sure there'll people out there that'll. Yeah, they will take your money for that. Right. The dream is free. It's the hustle that's old extra.

Dan Harris (73:06)

You know, we are talking about something that is a very tricky balance for people in meditation, at least it certainly is for me. And I just wrapped up a 10 day silent meditation retreat at IMS or the inside Meditation Society. I saw you there. We didn't talk because it was silent, but I saw you walking around the mess hall. And one of the things I struggle with is, and I know I'm not alone in this, is the wanting to get somewhere. And the wanting is a barrier. Listeners may have heard me say this a million times, but meditation is like this fucked up video game where if you want to move forward, you can't move forward. You have to get the mind into this neutral spot. And one of the things I think about in order to kind of turn the volume down on this design desire is this phrase that I think it's from the Buddha, but it's a description of dharma practice generally, which is, it's good in the beginning, it's good in the middle, it's good in the end. So you may not make it to the quote, unquote, end, enlightenment, whatever that means. But it's good no matter what and where and how much you're doing.

Devin Berry (74:16)

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you can help to cultivate some helpful conditions. Serve generosity. All of those things really help to clear the mind. They really help to settle things. All of that clearing and settling is going to serve you well in the meta practice and in your insight practice. Right. If you can really be in that place of knowing and cultivating and understanding. Not wanting or letting go, letting go again and again and again and Again and again. It'll serve you well. And then, you know, you have all that letting go and then all of a sudden you okay, wow. I feel really clear and clean and feel genuine. Okay, now I'm going to go for Jhna. And there you go again.

Dan Harris (75:06)

Yeah. You just kind of have to stick at it and maybe something interesting will happen, maybe it won't. But it's still good.

Devin Berry (75:15)

It is still very good. I mean, having seven or ten days on retreat to practice in that way, there are going to be some just lovely, lovely, lovely moments. And they're going to be moments of hell that you're going to question your sanity, that you actually paid for this level of hell. Yeah, that's going to be there as well.

Dan Harris (75:34)

Yeah. Do you have a website or anything that we can let people know about if they were interested in learning more from or about you?

Devin Berry (75:41)

Yeah, the easiest way is just at my website, which is my first and last namE-E-V-I n b e r r y.org I can't guarantee it's updated, it's above my pay grade. Or you can go to the IMS website and list the retreats that I teach and offer there.

Dan Harris (75:59)

The IMS website is dharma D H A R M A.org dharma.org Devin, this has been a huge pleasure, really. It's really nice to meet you in the sense that we actually get to talk. I appreciate you doing this.

Devin Berry (76:12)

Absolutely. It's been wonderful. Any opportunity to talk a little bit about meta. More than happy to do so.

Dan Harris (Host) (76:23)

Thanks again to Devin. Awesome to talk to him. Also, don't forget to check out my new app 10% with Dan Harris. You can get it@danharris.com there's a free 14 day trial if you want to check it out before you spend any money. Danharris.com check it out. Finally. Thank you very much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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