A Zen Handbook for Sanity in an Era of Uncertainty | Jiryu Rutschman-Byler

Summary

10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode: A Zen Handbook for Sanity in an Era of Uncertainty | Jiryu Rutschman-Byler

Date: December 17, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores how Zen Buddhism, specifically the teachings of Shunryu Suzuki (author of Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind), offers practical tools for maintaining sanity and presence during periods of uncertainty and daily turmoil. Dan Harris is joined by Jiryu Rutschman-Byler, Soto Zen Buddhist priest and abbot, to break down concepts like embodied presence, the practice of "softening the mind," being intimate with reality, and finding the balance between striving and accepting our “idiot” selves. The conversation is a blend of Zen's poetic perspective and real-life applicability, serving as a handbook for those looking to ground themselves amid chaos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Shunryu Suzuki? (06:00 – 09:55)

• Background: Suzuki Roshi was a Japanese Zen priest and a key founder of American Buddhism, bringing Soto Zen to the U.S. in 1959 and founding the San Francisco Zen Center.
  • “He was actually born in a Zen temple...in 1959 he came to the United States and founded really a major stream of Zen and became one of the people who you could say are the grandfathers or founders of Zen in the West.” — Jiryu, (06:25)
• Teaching Style: Suzuki's appeal lay in both his skepticism toward religious structures and the warmth and unconditional love he radiated to students—even those wary of organized religion.
• Legacy: Many prominent American teachers—even ones Dan cites from the “JewBu” stream—owe their opportunities to meditate in the West to Suzuki’s groundwork.

2. Jiryu’s Path to Zen (12:09 – 15:41)

• Suffering as the Starting Point: Like many, Jiryu turned to spiritual practice to address suffering and mental health struggles.
  • “As a young adult, there are some mental health things I was confused about...I wasn't so grounded.” — Jiryu, (12:26)
• Zen as Embodiment, Not Abstraction: Traditional “cosmic” spirituality left him ungrounded. Zen, in contrast, is deeply embodied—about “how you hold the teacup,” sweeping, existing right here in the moment.
  • “Zen teaching is all about just come right into what this body is...let it be that kind of small thing and just totally be that. And there's all this freedom and space there.” — Jiryu, (13:17)

3. Zen on Wonder, Awe, and Problems (16:45 – 23:23)

• Ordinary Reality as Miracle: Zen doesn’t focus on otherworldly spirits, but brings attention to the profound mystery of ordinary life—the fact that we are alive at all.
  • “You're more concerned with your problem than with the fact that you're alive.” — Suzuki Roshi (as quoted by Jiryu), (19:26)
• Shifting Perspective on Problems: Problems that seem overwhelming in the moment fade with context and time. The key is not to let them blot out the miracle of being alive.

4. Dealing with “BIG” Problems (23:23 – 28:01)

• Grounded Presence Over Problem-Solving: The bigger the problem, the more we need a larger, more grounded self to hold it—not just a “chaotic, childish mind.”
  • “Big problem needs a big self. You could say a big caretaker...that’s embodied wisdom.” — Jiryu, (24:06)
• Faith as Confidence: In Zen, “faith” isn’t dogmatic belief, but confidence in one’s own ability to soften the mind and access presence through direct experience.

5. The Practice: Zazen & Softening the Mind (31:27 – 45:12)

• Zazen Explained:
  • Take an upright posture, settle attention in the low belly (hara), breathe naturally, count out-breaths, and keep eyes open (or mostly open) to stay intimately connected to surroundings.
• Letting Go of Thinking:
  • The mind will wander—start again, joyfully, without self-judgment.
  • “The most important thing in the coming back to one is that we're just happy and grateful to be coming back to one.” — Jiryu, (37:12)
• Eyes Open vs. Closed:
  • Eyes open helps avoid slipping into a “demon cave” of internal separation; it trains us to be present with life, not escape.

6. Intimacy, Oneness & Life as “Not to Be Figured Out” (44:17 – 56:53)

• Intimacy with Experience: True “oneness” is realizing that nothing is separate from your life; everything in your field of experience is included in you.
  • “When you are really you yourself, you include everything.” — Suzuki Roshi (quoted by Jiryu), (49:48)
• Avoid Over-Conceptualizing: Trying to “figure out” life or presence only creates more separation. Instead, be it, experience it.
  • “If you really want to be yourself, don't try to figure it out. Figuring it out—now you're separating from it.” — Jiryu, (56:53)

7. Allowing, Appropriate Response & Action (63:18 – 73:14)

• Allowing as Effectiveness: Including everything (even discomfort) in one’s awareness allows for more authentic, spontaneous response—what Zen calls “the appropriate response.”
  • “Just a little bit more reliable, a little more helpful, a little more appropriate if we're a little bit less in our mind and a little bit more in the feeling of being alive that everything is included in.” — Jiryu, (73:19)
• Practical Examples: Whether in traffic, in meetings, or helping a friend, action derived from this soft, inclusive mind is more compassionate and effective.

8. Accepting the Inner Idiot & Buddha (74:01 – 79:53)

• Embracing Flaws and Growth: “Authenticity is the okayness to be the idiot that you already are.” We strive to improve, but with the recognition we are always carried by life, imperfectly.
  • “You're perfect and you could use a little improvement.” — (Attributed to Zen teachers, 77:23)
• Don’t Block Natural Aspirations: Acceptance is not resignation; ambition and self-improvement are also parts of our authentic, complete self.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don't have to wait 60 years...just a little bit of stepping back and appreciating that we're alive while we're alive...The feeling is like, I have to get over this...then I'll be alive. The problem's not in the way of anything. It just is our life.” — Jiryu, (21:45)
• “The Zen idea, Suzuki Roshi's idea, is kind of like our surroundings, our life, the light and the sound and the things happening around us also are kind of like, very interesting. They're trying to share their feeling with us as a kind of metaphor for this intimacy.” — Jiryu, (31:27)
• “When you are really you yourself, you include everything. So being yourself doesn't mean I'm myself, not you. It's...the fullness of my experience, of my being alive, which everything is part of.” — Jiryu, (49:48)
• “To say inappropriate response. It's just a little bit more appropriate than the response I was going to do...just a little more reliable, a little more helpful...” — Jiryu, (73:19)
• “You're perfect and you could use a little improvement.” — Zen wisdom, (77:23)
• “You didn't make yourself an idiot, you know, Everything in the whole universe since beginningless time made you an idiot, you know, so just be that. All the wisdom is there and all the confusion is there.” — Jiryu, (74:21)
• On agency and flow:
  “You don’t have to be driving your life all the time. You can actually just, like, ride the wave a little bit sometimes. Let the life be moving you.” — Jiryu, (75:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 06:00 – 09:55: Shunryu Suzuki’s roots and influence
• 12:09 – 15:41: Jiryu’s spiritual journey and Zen’s grounding effect
• 17:48 – 23:23: How to re-inject awe into daily life and shift perspective on problems
• 24:06 – 28:01: Meeting “big” suffering with presence, not mere mindset
• 31:27 – 45:12: Practical steps for zazen meditation and embodying presence
• 44:17 – 56:53: What “being one with everything” really means; intimacy and letting go of over-thinking
• 63:18 – 73:14: How intimacy and radical inclusion lead to more skillful, “appropriate” action
• 74:01 – 79:53: Embracing both the “idiot” and “Buddha” within, and finding the right balance of acceptance and aspiration

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Language & Tone

The tone throughout is accessible, compassionate, and lightly irreverent. Both Dan and Jiryu use humor (“be the idiot you are”), clear demystification (“this isn’t woo woo, it’s grounded”), and approachable language, even as they tackle profound, sometimes paradoxical topics.

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Additional Resources

• New Book: Becoming Yourself: Teachings on the Zen Way of Life—a compilation of Suzuki Roshi’s teachings, edited by Jiryu Rutschman-Byler.
• San Francisco Zen Center: Explore further resources or residential retreats.
• Companion Meditation: Jeff Warren’s guided meditation on oneness (available at danharris.com).

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking practical wisdom and grounded spiritual insight from the Zen tradition.

Transcript

[A]

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? My whole life, going back to when I was a kid, I can remember always feeling like I have some problem or set of problems that I've got to deal with. The subconscious lie I've always told myself is that as soon as I get whatever problem is currently on my plate off my plate, everything will be great. The Elysian Fields in perpetuity but as my friend and teacher Joseph Goldstein often says, if it's not one thing, it's another. We're always going to have problems. The question is, how do you deal with them effectively? Today we're going to get the Zen recipe for handling all of life's inevitable problems. My guest is Jiru Rushman Byler, a Sodo Zen Buddhist priest and teacher. He is the co abbot of the San Francisco Zen center and the abiding abbot of the Green Gulch Farm Zen Center. He recently edited a book of teachings by his root teacher, the legendary Zen master Shunryo Suzuki. Shunryo Suzuki was one of the most influential spiritual teachers of the 20th century. He was a founding father of Zen in America. A fascinating dude, and you'll learn a little bit more about him. Other topics we hit in the interview include what is Zen? How to work with your day to day problems from a Zen perspective how to soften the mind, whether to meditate with your eyes open or closed what it really means to become one with everything why life is not something to be figured out, the connection between the oft misunderstood concept of allowing and being more effective in your life, the concept and practice of faith and the magic of the universe. If softening your mind and becoming one with everything sounds interesting but esoteric, you really should check out our latest meditation, which drops today from my friend Jeff Warren, who's our Teacher of the month over on danharris.com it's all about how practically to actually relax the mind and body and connect to everything that's happening all around you. You can access it by signing up [e-mail] if you sign up, you'll also get invited to our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions every Tuesday at 4danharis.com, check it out. Okay, we'll get started with Jiryu Rushman Byler right after this you know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get that the power of hearing somebody speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something for me. When I need a one on one holiday boost, I know who to call. My friend Joseph Goldstein, my meditation teacher. This is a guy who was just every time I got a problem, I can call him up and he talks me off the ledge and gives me practical and profound advice. AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you've called somebody who matters, now is the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they will hear forever. So spread a little love with a call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. I'm a big worker outer and I've been wearing this new brand, or at least new to me recently. Fabletics. They're a sponsor on this show and sent me some stuff. I love this stuff. I'm wearing it all the time. I'm going to work out actually after I record this ad and I'm going to put on some Fabletics and hit the gym. And what's cool about Fabletics is you can wear this stuff even if you don't work out. It's what they call athleisure. I'm sure you've heard that term. So I wear their gym shorts and their workout T shirts while I'm working out. I also wear their socks, but I wear the socks and also some like cool joggers that they sent me when I'm not working out, when I'm just chilling watching TV. You can also sign up as a VIP. When you do, you get 80% off everything and the quality is really high. These pieces feel like high end activewear and that you would pay 200 bucks for, but I'm finding that I'm getting that level of quality at a fraction of the price. The fit and feel are dialed in. No waistbands, rolling down, joggers that actually keep their shape, jackets that are warm without the bulk. It solves all the usual issues I've had with activewear while also still being soft and breathable and durable enough for workouts, for travel, for sitting in front of the tv, all the stuff I like to do. It also helps knowing that Fabletics has built a community of over 2 million VIP members and more than 100 retail stores, which make me feel like I'm joining something people already love and rely on. Honestly, I didn't realize how much I would wear Fabletics until I tried their stuff. Now it's pretty much my everyday workout gear. You should check it out. Fabletics already has amazing deals, but right now they're running their biggest sale of the year. On top of that, I've got an exclusive offer for you. 80% off everything. When you sign up as a VIP. Head to Fabletics.com happier and sign up as a VIP to get 80% off everything. This is only available through my link, so go to fabletics.com happier to sign up as a VIP and get 80% off. That's fabletics.com happier. Jerry Ruchman Byler, welcome to the show.

[B]

Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me.

[A]

I'm happy to have you here. I thought maybe it would be good to get started with some basic information for people who are not familiar with Suzuki Roshi or Shunryu Suzuki. I have to say I tried to look at Zen mind, beginner's mind, early in my practice and couldn't grok it. And now that I'm sitting with you and intrigued to go back and take a look at it, can you just give us a little background on the man himself?

[B]

Yeah, sounds like maybe the way where it went a little off is the trying to grok. So Shinriya Suzuki Roshi as a Zen priest, really his whole life was in Zen. He was actually born in a Zen temple. It's kind of typical in the Japanese Buddhist thing for temples to kind of have families and temples to pass from father to son. So Shinri Suzuki Roshi was born in 1904 in Japan, but then in 1959 he came to the United States and founded really a major stream of Zen and became one of the people who you could say are the grandfathers or founders of Zen in the West. Buddhism generally, you know, the idea of meditation and Buddhist practice and things like this podcast, you know, really were unthinkable. And people like Suzuki Roshi really planted those seeds. So an early and important founder of American Buddhism. And you mentioned Zen mind, Beginner's mind, that's kind of his very famous book. He also founded the San Francisco Zen center, which has these three big residential temples and 70 or 80 affiliate groups. So he founded one of the major lineages of Zen practice in the West.

[A]

There is a critique that I think is fair and accurate critique of people like me who tend to tell the story of Buddhism in the west as being largely, if not Wholly the result of the so called Jubus, young Jewish kids, mostly from the New York City area, who ended up in Asia in the late 60s and early 70s and came home and became prominent teachers, in the case of Joseph Goldstein or Sharon Salzberg or Jack Kornfield, or became prominent scientists like Richie Davidson or Daniel Goldman or Jon Kabat Zinn, who was both. And that's all true to a certain extent. I think those guys played a major role in bringing the dharma to the West. But Shinryo Suzuki was before them. And as I think about the causes and conditions that have led to my being able to have a practice which has revolutionized my inner and outer life and a second career, Shunry O Suzuki, notwithstanding, my lack of familiarity with him, is one of those major causes and conditions.

[B]

Yeah, so in 1959 he arrived. There really had not been much in the United States outside of the, you know, Asian immigrant communities or scholarly approaches. So the actual embodied practice as a possibility, a possibility for ordinary people living ordinary lives to bring this meditation practice, as you say, this kind of revolutionary, transformative possibility of just sitting down and in our case, facing the wall. So, yeah, there's been a few. I mean, that's a wonderful and fascinating topic in itself. You know, how Buddhism got here to the west and all the different streams and threads there.

[A]

Yeah. There's a good book on the subject, how the Swans Came to the Lake, that I recommend. But back to you and your teacher. When did he die? Did you get to spend much time with him and what was he like?

[B]

Shunya Suzuki Roshi. I did not get to spend time with him. He died in 1971.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And I was born in 1976. So we missed. We missed by a little bit.

[A]

Oh, okay. You're younger than me.

[B]

So my teacher and my many teachers that I've had over the many years here at the San Francisco Zen Center, Temple Tassahara and Green Gulch Farm Zen center and San Francisco Zen center in the city, many of the teachers that had kind of made that place what it's become knew him and loved him and were trained by him, including my core teacher, Sojinmao Weitzman Roshi, who was ordained as a priest by Suzuki Roshi and was very close with him in his life. I'm appreciating one of the things as I study Suzuki Roshi more deeply, even though he was just born and bred in Buddhism his whole life, you know, all the way through, he was also a little bit suspicious of it. You know, he was A little bit skeptical. He was ambivalent about, you know, in this new book, becoming Yourself. And you see it throughout his teaching. He's always kind of like when he gets an opportunity to take a little jab, you know, at Buddhism, and he sees this beautiful thing in the tradition, and then he sees all the ways that a religious tradition can get stuck and go wrong and get power and get hierarchy and get confused. And so it's this kind of love, hate. And I think that is part of what really made him so appealing as a teacher, especially in the 1960s San Francisco. This is not a group of people that were like, hey, let's go find an organized religion to be a part of. They were like, let's be free of all this. And somehow this very traditional guy could just speak right to these people who wanted to be free of everything. And he was teaching them formal stuff, like how to hold their hands and how to do these kind of Zen ritual things. But he did it with this kind of warm heart and simplicity, directness and love. I think that's the main thing. You know, when I hear people talk about the experience of being with him is just like, unconditional love. And this practice, you know, of really including everything as it is, welcoming everything. People really felt that from him, like, that they, with all of their anxieties or confusion or tangles, were just totally welcome, totally seen as what they are, you know, which is life itself. His warm heart really is the feature that I've sort of absorbed most as impactful to the people who I know who were able to train with him.

[A]

Before we get to the new book, which, as you said, is called Becoming Yourself. And I have a million questions about it, including what the title means in a Buddhist context. But before we get to that, I'd just be curious to hear a little bit more about you. How did you get interested in the Dharma? So interested that you dedicated your whole life to it?

[B]

Yeah, like all of us. Right. Like, the path traditionally unfolds, starts with, you notice suffering. You notice suffering and realize that just plowing head in the usual way that you've been plowing head is not actually meeting or touching or healing the suffering. So for me, you know, as a young adult, there are some mental health things I was confused about. You could say what was real and what wasn't real. I wasn't so grounded. I wasn't so here. So I turned to spirituality. You know, I had a. I had some important experiences of sort of opening to that kind of vastness of what we are or what this life is, you know, it's a total mystery and miracle. We go along like it's just an ordinary or usual thing, you know, but being alive, it's like what? You know. So I really was starting to feel that and turn towards that and I'm like, okay, right. This is what spirituality gets at. Spirituality is a place where we can get to together and look at each other and say, this is crazy, you guys. That there's anything that we're alive. The problem is the kind of spirituality that I started to look to were sort of like, yeah, life, it's so big, you know, and there's like a cosmos and spiritual energies. And I was already a little bit ungrounded, you know, a little bit unclear about what was real and what wasn't. Sometimes hearing things that weren't there and then getting into spiritual practice and like. Right, yeah, there's all these invisible spirits and you're that somehow these unknown dimensions of being or something. And it was kind of exciting, but it was also really ungrounded. You know, the more I kind of tried to get big and connected with the vastness, the less was here was not helping my mental health. It was not helping my being here in this body, in this place. When I finally encountered Zen practice in a direct way, it was really amazing to me to notice and appreciate. In the Zen practice, it's totally embodied. You know, we say chop wood and carry water. There's a lot of talk about teacups, you know, like how you hold the teacup. It is how you hold your hands, you know, how you move your body, how you sweep the leaves. It's this totally embodied, grounded way as also having the vastness. Right. So I thought, oh, the big spiritual thing is up in the air and I kind of have to leave here to get there. And the Zen teaching is all about just come right into what this body is. To the objects, you know, to the space that you're in just as they are. Let it be that kind of small thing and just totally be that. And there's all this freedom and space there. So I was just totally hooked, really. You know, I had a chance to do some sitting meditation and pretty soon into my practice, a seven day retreat. And I just felt like this has what I need. There's a lineage of teaching. There's we call a sangha, you know, there's people supporting me, not just like alone in my room communing with spirits that aren't there. You know, it's not so good for you and a meditation practice that helps me be in my body and really right here and try to open my loving heart and appreciate the magic of being alive.

[A]

You talked about spirits. I'm not a student of Zen, but is there a lot of influence on otherworldly spirits in that tradition?

[B]

No, no, not really at all. I'm saying before I came to Zen, I got quite confused by doing that sort of practice. It's in the background. You know, Zen is so old and goes way back into history. And so all of that stuff is kind of like in the background of the tradition, but in terms of the actual practice, you know, Suzukiyoshi had no time or interest in any of that. And for me, the important thing about Zen was it is not about anything far out or woo woo. It's just exactly about how am I using my body, how am I finding, softening my, my mind, really opening my mind, kind of trying to awake this a little more intuitive way of being that's not so mental. That's not so much like separate, you know, I'm over here, everything else is out there. I have to do something to it. So no, for me, the spirits is like what I had to recover from. That just played right into the confusion I already had. Yeah.

[A]

So we'll get into the how of the chop wood carry water ethos in a second. Before we get there, I just want to ask a question based on something you said. You were talking about how it's so easy as we trudge through life, to lose sight of the fact that this whole fucking thing is a mystery is a marvel. It's wild. You don't have to believe in spirits to understand that all of this is magic. Everything that's happening right now is riding on this unfathomable ocean of prior conditions. This is all crazy. And yet somehow our busy prefrontal cortices shut out the glory and we're focused on our to do list instead, and we're bored or we're nursing a grudge or whatever it is. So just very practically, how do you inject awe into the course of your day?

[B]

It is a miracle. And spirits, I mean, the Zen tradition is so clear about this. Thinking that there's a miracle, like spirits or something, or a miracle. Are you kidding? Like the outbreath is a miracle. You know, the water coming into your lips is a miracle. You don't know what it is. The mind cannot grasp science, you can figure out what it is. You can do physics, you can map the thing. But the feeling, the fact of being Alive. There was. I can't remember her name now. I was listening to a podcast about consciousness, and this woman had just this beautiful example of this. She was saying, as a kid, you know, all of the adults around are teaching you, like, how to brush your teeth and how to do math and stuff. And she was sort of waiting, like, is anybody going to mention, you know, that this is, like, totally crazy that we're here and alive and this kid just kind of waiting for someone to point out the obvious of like, hey, kid, like, we don't know what's going on. You know, we all just kind of got here and we're trying to figure it out, we're trying to do our best, but instead it's just like, here's how you do math, here's how you brush your teeth. So, yeah, and that. That's not. It's not separate. Of course it's not separate. So one of my favorite lines from Suzuki Roshi, which isn't written down, but a student of his said, remembers really clearly him saying, which is, you're more concerned with your problem than with the fact that you're alive. And I just love that, you know, it's like I'm so involved in my today problem, you know, that I'm kind of like, losing this. Just this little stepping back. It's not different from that. I mean, it's not like the fact that I'm alive is, like, different than my problem. It's just the kind of background, the thing in which I'm having a problem, you know, the being alive, the being alive together. The Zen practice, the meditation practice is just a kind of touching in or an alignment with or training in, a kind of quieting the foreground. You know, you said the kind of frontal thing, doing the thing of fixating, making the world small and kind of focusing on a problem, that the sitting is a kind of stepping back, taking in a little bit more of the background. You know, you could say the background fact of what is this? You know, and then that supports us. That just creates a little bit of ground or a little bit of space or a little bit of ease with which we then meet our problem. That's the only thing to do. You know, it's not like they're not so separate in the embodied kind of everyday way. You know, it means kind of exhaling for me. It means kind of coming into my belly. In the Zen practice, there's kind of this emphasis on what we call the hara, or the low belly. This kind of, like, core embodied place. Where we're sort of trying to come a little bit down from our head and just into the feeling in our body of being here and then just kind of opening the eyes and trying to widen the attention a little bit. You know, just like step back from the fixation on the thing and just notice, okay, there's a whole context here. How is it for you? How do you find that kind of awe? I like that you use that word, awe. Someone said if you're not in awe, you're not paying attention.

[A]

Or you're paying attention to the wrong things. Yeah, well, I don't want to claim that I'm very good at this, although I do think there are lots of modalities. I'll give you one that just comes to mind. When you were talking about Suzuki Roshi teaching students in the 60s in the San Francisco Zen Center. All these hippies who are coming in with their problems. I just think about the fact that to those people 60 years ago, their problems blotted out the sun. It just seemed like, God, when's my draft number coming up? My dad won't let me pursue the career I wanted to pursue. They must have seemed like really big problems. Where are they now? And the same is true of my problems.

[B]

That's beautiful, Dan. Thank you. That's a beautiful reflection. You don't have to wait 60 years, you know, just like even the next morning isn't that amazing. At night, you know, it's like, oh my God, you know, big problem. Looking at my calendar, I'm quite busy in this position of the abbot here at Gringo Farms and Center, which is one of our three San Francisco Zen center temples. So cohabit of this really big and vast Zen center complex, three temples and a wide non residential sangha. So my calendar is a mess. And I look at my calendar and I get this just kind of gripped, impossible sort of feeling. And that's so real when it's real and then just something shifts. The next morning, you just look at the same calendar and it's like, it's fine. Yeah. 60 years later, I think. And that's so wonderful about spending time with older people, you know, just that context. But we can do it now, you know, just a little bit of stepping back and appreciating that we're alive while we're alive, you know, the problem, the thing that we're caught up in is not in the way of our being alive. The feeling is like, I have to get over this. I have to get through this, you know, and then Then I'll be alive or something, then I'll be okay, then I'll be able to have my joy, then I'll be able to thrive. Then it's just a series of problems. The problem's not in the way of anything. It just is our life. So for Suzuki Roshi to be telling these kids, you know, young people, don't miss that you're alive and let's do that together, you know, and that's not to minimize or dismiss the problem. It's just, it's like the background or the context or the space it's all happening in.

[A]

Well, let me just get right to what you said there. But let's not to minimize or dismiss the problem because I can imagine people listening to this and thinking, well, you guys just listed some problems, but they don't compare to my problem. Like my kid just got a terminal diagnosis or I just got a terminal diagnosis, or you name it. There are problems that are, I don't know, all caps problems, you know, stop the presses. Yeah, type of stuff. So does this feel the breath at the south of the belly button or contemplate the fact that billions of people have preceded you on this planet and they've had problems? This stuff might sound nice, but you know, when it's up against something that's like headline news, maybe not so actionable.

[B]

Yeah, big deep problems. The whole the world suffering, our own struggles, our families, aging, death. I mean, there's life and death problems, you know, I know those too. Suzuki Roshi says, you know, kind of like actually the bigger the problem is, the more important it is that we actually find someplace in our being that can hold and be with a big problem. You know, like we use the examples of the little problems, but in a way, the little problems, the thinking mind, the dualistic mind, it can usually figure its way out through the little problems. The thinking mind, the either or, the what should I do? The separate, you know, I'm over here, it's over here, it's over there, what do I do to it? That kind of mental either or should based approach is like, it can't include everything that we need to include when we're meeting a really big deep problem. So Suzuki Roshi says, the more you realize how difficult, you know, it is. It's what the Buddha said too. When you really realize how difficult, how deep the suffering goes, you need some other tool. You know. The way I think of it is like, okay, if I have a little problem, I can give it to this chaotic, childish mind, right? When I have a really big problem. I need to give it to the adult, you know, to the thing that's bigger and more grounded. Big problem needs a big self. You could say a big caretaker. And for me, kind of in my practice, in the Zen training, that's like this embodied wisdom, you know, Our mind can't hold all of the contradictions that a real problem has. It's like, I like it, I don't like it. I want it, I don't want it. It's okay. It's not okay. None of the things I can do make sense. The mind is trying to figure out, like, what to do in that. But the kind of quieting the mind and just including all of that in a kind of presence or in a kind of spaciousness, even though it's all contradictory, even though it's all a swirl of impossible obstacles or problems, you know, this kind of bigger presence actually can be the ground from which to meet it. And I think we kind of have this experience all the time. It's like when we're thinking about something, it's hard to find our way through. And then we just relax and take some breaths, and then it's like, boom, right? I'm going to go left, not right. I'm going to go right, not left. I'm going to say yes and not no. And then there's even this idea, right, that. That action or that decision. I don't know, you've maybe talked to neuroscientists or whatever. There is this idea that action is coming a little bit before we have, like, decided with our mind, right? So there's something about trusting. And the Zen training is about kind of like trusting, whether it's a big problem or a little problem. Can I rely a little more on this kind of presence that includes everything, this soft mind that's just intimate and open and not really knowing. Can I trust that that will be a ground of action? Or do I need to be using my kind of manipulative, separate thinking mind and just try it out in little ways? A million examples of this, you know, in our life where we can just try to soften the mind and come more into that intuitive wisdom and then just see, just check it out. See, is that trustworthy? Did that work? And then gradually, in the language of Zen, you know, we sort of build our faith, our confidence in, I can bear to empty my mind a little bit. I'm going to be actually okay if I soften and empty my mind a little bit, because I have what I need to Be connected and to respond with wisdom and compassion. And that's in the embodied presence. When I rely on that more and rely on my dualistic, confused, tangled mind a little bit less.

[A]

Coming up, Jiryu Rushman Byler talks about the what and how of softening the mind and working with your problems, whether you should meditate with your eyes open or closed, and what it really means to become one with everything. The holiday season is upon us. Many of us are traveling. My family's not traveling, actually. We're going to be chilling during the holidays, which I'm excited about. We've got some trips coming up early in 2026. One of the things I love when I'm traveling is staying in a really comfortable home. We do this a lot, especially when we're traveling with other families, get a home on Airbnb. We all stay together, and it really boosts that sense of togetherness. One of the biggest problems in the world right now is isolation, driven often by technology, the sense of loneliness that makes us really unhappy. And so doing it with other families, with other people can be a great way to cut through that and makes a vacation even more meaningful because you're seeing a new place and you're doing it while deeply connected. Anyway, if you've got some travel coming up, there's a really cool opportunity for you, which is you could, while you're away, host your own home on Airbnb. I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into your home, so why not help somebody feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling and while you're away from home? It's a great way to offset some of the costs of your trip, and then you can use that money for future trips or to upgrade your home, whatever you want. So if you've got a lot of trips coming up, think about hosting your home on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host. You know AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why we love a good podcast. Or we save voicemails from loved ones because we appreciate the sound of a familiar voice. When I need a pick me up, I call my friend Willie. Willie and I have known each other for nearly 25 years. He's just an incredibly close friend and I laugh my you know what off every time we talk. That's my guy. AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, call someone because that conversation is a chance to say something they will hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. I love how in Zen world and in the Buddhist world writ large, there's a kind of retaking of the fraught word of faith. In Western culture, as you know, faith is often used as kind of weaponized. You believe in this dogma or you're a sinner. But faith in the Buddhist Zen and in the overall Buddhist sense is, as you said, confidence, and that you can build through your own direct experience. And in this case, we're talking about the direct experience of shifting into a different mindset instead of handing all of your problems over to, I think you refer to it as our childish, dualistic mind. So let me then follow. Follow up with a really practical question. This thing you're describing, which sounds great, to soften the mind, to empty the mind, to inhabit a kind of embodied presence. What does that mean actually? And how does one do it, actually?

[B]

So actually, it means, you know, seeing. So in our sitting practice. Sitting practice in Zen is not the point, really. Sitting practice is like. One of my teachers called it training wheels. I was so into what we call zazen seated meditation. And I was maybe 20, and I was at our. Our more monastic training place, and I was so into, you know, the sitting. And just the more you sit, the better, you know, you got to sit all the time. And this wonderful teacher said, that's the training wheel. You know, I thought I was doing some heroic, awesome thing by all this sitting. And she was like, yeah, that's just the training wheel. The point of the sitting is to help us balance the bike, just to help us live our life. So the sitting is kind of a good practice area, practice range for us to experiment with and take even tentative steps into. What's it like to relax the mind a little bit, to soften some of the thinking? Can I trust that? Can I try that? So practically, you know, it is helpful to sit, even just now and then, for a few minutes. And the way we do that is to take an upright posture and kind of align our spine and head and body so that the breath can go down into the belly again, this kind of belly center. So we just breathe, you know, all the way out from the lower belly and then all the way in from the lower belly. And already right there, concentration is not like some impossible thing. We know how to concentrate. It's kind of our birth rate. Even just for a moment, concentrating on that breath. It's like the thinking is there, ready to rush Right back in, you know, but just even for a second, you know, we can just breathe out. And then the mind, you know, tries to come back in. So. And then we try to relax the mind, try to let go of some of the thinking by feeling that feeling of the breath. And then there's a step that I think is kind of the basis of almost all the meditation techniques in all the different Buddhist schools. And then in the Zen way, we open our eyes a little bit and we kind of open our ears and we get curious about what's happening around us. That's also a wonderful way to cut through the thinking. When there's something interesting happening, we're not thinking about something else. When we're talking to our friend, who we really love, and they're telling us something important, we're probably not thinking as much as when we're just wandering mind, because something important and interesting is happening, right? So we're kind of like. We're sort of there for it. And part of being there for it means other things, other kinds of thoughts other than about this situation now, you know, talking to my friend, they kind of don't have a place. And it's not that I'm pushing them away. It's just I'm interested in what my friend is saying. I want to be here with them. So the Zen idea, Suzuki Roshi's idea, is kind of like our surroundings, our life, the light and the sound and the things happening around us also are kind of like, very interesting. They're trying to share their feeling is kind of a funny, poetic way to put it, but that's what Suzuki Roshi says. You're kind of. The space that we're in is trying to share its feeling with us as a kind of metaphor for this intimacy. I don't know if that sounds practical. The point is to come into the body, come into the breath, and then just see. You know, focusing on the breath and opening the eyes and just noticing that something interesting is happening around. So sometimes we say, and Suzuki Roshi does make this point, you know, when the mind is crowded with all this rubbish, it's hard to really feel the feeling of life and to feel how that being alive is like really pretty intimate with everything that's around it. You know, sometimes even, like, painfully intimate. We're so. So together with everything, really. So the mind is just so, so full. And so it's hard to appreciate the feeling of where we are. But we really can let some of that thinking quiet. And part of how we can do that is by remembering, finding in ourselves, inquiring in ourselves. You know, are we curious? Do we want to be connected with what's around and then just attending to what's around us? Does that make sense, Dan?

[A]

It makes sense to me. I think it makes sense to me. But I'm going to try to repeat some of it back to you and ask some clarifying questions in service of making sure that I actually got it, and more importantly, making sure that the listener can understand it and deploy it in his or her own life. How does that sound?

[B]

That's wonderful, Dan. I really appreciate that.

[A]

So I think what you were teaching us there is zazen, the Zen style of seated meditation, the goal of which is not to get better at zazen per se, it's to get better at navigating life and your problems. But this is a foundational training. And so in zazen, I think what you're describing is it starts eyes closed, with a feeling of the breath coming in and out at the hara, which is kind of a little bit south of the belly button. And then one might open the eyes. Often in zazen meditation, you're actually kind of sitting in front of a wall. You might take in the wall, the light around you. So it's a way of sharpening the mind a little bit on the grounding and honing the attention through, paying attention to the breath. Then you open up a little bit by opening the eyes and seeing if you can be aware of your surroundings. And of course, every time you get distracted, just start again. Is that a decent recapitulation?

[B]

It's wonderful. And when you put it that way, you know, it does sound kind of hard. So I'm sorry that it's hard. You know, it's hard to be alive. So, like, I mean, we're already doing something hard, right? That's so Tsutsuki Hiroshi says, if you think that your life isn't already hard, then why would you do something hard, like try to meditate. But when you get that, your life is hard, so you might have to do something hard to figure out how to cope with your hard life. The Buddha's not saying, like, oh, we could do something easy, but I'm making up something hard for us to do randomly. He's saying, life is really, really hard. And I'm actually, even though it's crazy to say, I'm actually offering something that in the long run is easier. You know, the way Suzuki Roshi most talks about for beginners, the way he most talks about zazen, or seated meditation, is counting the breath. If we can just feel ourself. There's just something about planting our feet in the feeling of being alive. And maybe somebody has this by walking, maybe somebody has this by doing some other kind of physical practice, running or some sport or just something that's embodied where you're not so much in your head. And so in the sitting, it's this Suzuki Roshi, when he talks about the hara, you know, he doesn't get too kind of specific or esoteric about it. It's more just like letting the breath fall, drop into the belly. You know, you can just feel your belly kind of going out and in, just trying to take a few deep breaths. And so then in the sitting, we just count each of those out breaths, one to 10. And usually it'll just count around three, two or three. And then no matter how long we're gone for, we just come back again to one. And the most important thing in the coming back to one is that we're just happy and grateful to be coming back to one, you know, and it's like, I'm such a bad meditator. I just was gone. Was that five minutes? Was it ten minutes? Forget it. It's just like as soon as you come back to your senses, right? As soon as you kind of come back to life, remember you're in a room and have this idea of meditating. You just come back to one with some joy, some gratitude. Like, yeah, one. What a wonderful thing to be back in the breath. That moment is so important, you know, because if we're harsh with ourselves, if we're like, you idiot, how can you get confused at 3 again? Who wants to come home to that? You know, so we just come back to the one. Like, right? Doesn't matter how long, you know, we're looking for just these moments of being fully alive. It doesn't matter how much time is between them. When we kind of come back to life, we can just be grateful and joyful. So he says, you know, just count our breath. And then as we count our breath, the mind starts to quiet down. And then if the mind is quiet, quiet some and we don't need to be counting anymore for the mind not to be so crazy, then we can stop counting and just be with the flow of our breath and then try to include more and more, see if we can include more and more, you know, of what's happening around us without kind of rushing back into that tense, evaluating, calculating, inside, outside, self, other either or mental thing. So even just to count A few breaths and just clear the mind for a little bit. I really believe that we all have that capacity. And then it just is refreshing, you know, it creates a new ground, even if our mind fills up again.

[A]

Two very practical clarifying questions. You mentioned, at some point, taking a deep breath, but my understanding is one might start with some deep breaths. But the counting of the breath is. You're counting the breath as it naturally occurs, not deep breathing. Am I right about that?

[B]

Yeah. To do kind of like deep breathing, you kind of get out of breath for after a few breaths. It's not so sustainable. But there's something about taking in the kind of traditional formal Zen meditation instruction. You take a couple of deep breaths to start to just kind of like, reset. Reset the body. I think of it as, like, prime the breath or just make a little bit of a forceful kind of expression of intention here. Like, okay, I'm coming into my breath. I'm coming into my body. So a few strong breaths and then just breathing naturally. The thing is, when we're relaxed, natural breathing kind of is in our belly. Like a baby kind of breathes in a belly or somebody in a really relaxed state. You know, the breath naturally actually wants to be in the belly. So it's not like we're forcing it there or pushing it there. It's just as we relax, we might notice that that's where it likes to be. So we might give it some encouragement at the start of our sitting just to remind it that sometimes it likes to be in the belly. But, yeah, the focus is natural breathing. Just as the Buddha said, when it's long, it's long, and that's our life, and it's amazing. And when it's short, it's short. And that's her life, and it's amazing.

[A]

The other practical question is, do you do zazen the entire time with your eyes open, or do you open them once you feel like you've got a base of focus and concentration?

[B]

The traditional instruction is open the whole time.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But when I'm taking a few breaths and trying to concentrate, I do find. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I feel like if you keep your eyes closed for too long, you start daydreaming or dreaming, you know, and you're kind of separating. You're kind of going. In the old Zen tradition, they call it the ghost cave, the demon cave. You're withdrawing into this deep, dark cave, and I'm here. Separate my depth, my meditation. And Zen is about the intimacy, the like, forgive the expression, but becoming One with our surroundings, being intimate. So to have our eyes open is more like, Right. What we're trying to practice is being one with our surroundings, not kind of going into this inner kind of place. So I find, like, for one or two breaths to close the eyes kind of helps with the concentration, but any more than that. But that's just kind of how I'm putting it today. Generally, we keep the eyes open, and it kind of becomes an important point in Zen meditation instruction because of what that signals about. The point of this practice is not for you to go into some deep state in yourself. The point is to, like, soften a little bit. This rigid, fixed, inside and outside, a separation thing. So with our eyes open, it's kind of like, right. The light and ears open and the sound and the heart open. All the feeling, all the sensation kind of being the whole field of being alive. So the eyes open, you know, just signifies that you don't need to be dogmatic about it. But it can be a little more helpful if the eyes are open to have that feeling of. Right. I'm trying to connect with my surroundings in a more deep and open way. As the sakura, she says, I'm trying to feel the feeling of being in the woods when I'm in the woods. And so I want my eyes to be open. I want to feel the feeling of my friend, so I want to be looking at them, you know, to feel, to be intimate.

[A]

I want to pick up on that word, intimacy, because it is a major topic in the book and you've brought it up, and it's linked to another phrase that is prominent in the book and that you've also brought up, which is this idea of meditation being a source of sharing the feeling. That was a phrase used earlier and a phrase that Suzuki Roshi used. When I hear you talk, and I'm imagining when the listeners hear you talk about being intimate or one with all of. All of our surroundings, with everything. You know, it's the old hot dog joke. Yeah, exactly. Or the ordering the pizza, you know, the Dalai Lama ordering a pizza. I'll take one with everything.

[B]

You know, we maybe shouldn't use that. It's very 70s to say, become one with everything. So I try to avoid it, but it's also like. It's a beautiful idea. It's a beautiful idea to just for the intimacy, you know, but. Sorry, what's. What's your question?

[A]

No, I love everything you're saying. I just. So we're both establishing that this is a very common trope. In spiritual circles, it's maybe the apex predator of meditation cliches. And yet, like, what does it really mean? And how do we know if we're achieving it? You know, I mean, I feel like sometimes I'm on retreat or especially in my early years, like, I'm staring at the trees. How can I be one with these fucking trees? Like, I'm still me. Yeah, they're over there. Like, so can you help us, like, break it down so that we can understand it?

[B]

Yeah. So this is in. In a nutshell, right? Is the more you're trying to, like, be one with the tree. That's ridiculous. You're standing there looking at the tree. Like, the point is, the tree is not actually separate from your life. And when I say that, it might sound mystical. So I just want to be really clear. This is not like the tree that you're looking at or, say, the computer that you're looking at, the table that you're looking at. The steering wheel that you're looking at is not actually different from your life. That kind of. Once you just sort of appreciate that or just make this little shift, I think these teachings start to make a lot more sense. Where is that steering wheel happening? Where is that tree happening? They're happening in Dan. I mean, the whole thing that your life is is, like, everything that's appearing in your life is your life. I use this image for that. Every time I use it, I say, I gotta stop using this. But I can't find a better one for now, which is like a dream. And the reason I hesitate to use this is because I don't think we're dreaming. I don't have this idea, like, reality is a dream. I think that's dumb. I think that's, like, not helpful, and I think it's not true. Who cares if it's a dream or not dream or not? I mean, from the Zen point, it's like, what are you talking about? That's. We don't actually know what it is enough to know, you know, to say anything about it. Like, dream or not dream. So it's not that it's not real, and it's not that there's not real things that are other than you. Like, you are really there. I'm really here. It's not like a weird and dangerous idea, like, I'm the only one that exists, but in a dream. But it's a good example or kind of metaphor. Everything that I encounter in the dream, what is it made of? It's just my own mind. Right. It's my own being. I see someone or I climb some mountain or I see some monster in my dream. It's just made out of my own dream. If that's a way that can land for you to put it in my life. Everything that I'm experiencing in my life just is my life. Nothing is in the way of my life. Nothing is really separate from my life. As soon as I'm experiencing something, it's in the field of what my life is. It's right here. That's what I mean. It's so intimate. You might get a little uncomfortable even when you start to appreciate, like, these people around me, you know, walking. Walking down the sidewalk. These people around me are actually. They're my own life. That's not like. Yes, sometimes, you know, the Buddha or somebody, Zikiroshi said the beautiful thing about the Buddha and the morning star, you know, they shared their feeling with each other. So. And that was the Buddha's enlightenment, you know, wow. I am not separate and the star is not separate. Sometimes that happens in this kind of dramatic, intense feeling of like, oh, my God.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

I'm actually one. Things are not separate. But even just in a more basic way, like, right, everything. I'm walking down the street. Me walking down the street includes all of this stuff. This stuff isn't separate. It is. The whole sidewalk is me walking down the street. Am I like, off the rails? Are you with me, Dan? Or do you think your audiences can appreciate that? Or does it sound, like, mystical or strange?

[A]

No, I think you're doing great and I think it lands for me. So I'll say it out loud and make sure it really does. But everything that I see or hear or smell is not a separate thing invading my space. It is in my mind, therefore, it is in my life. And so we may feel separate from the gum on the sidewalk and the person whose outfit we don't like stepping on the gum on the sidewalk. We may feel like we're this separate ego fretfully navigating the world. But anything that's in your mind is non negotiably part of your life. And so you aren't separate fundamentally. Is that what you're saying?

[B]

Yeah, that's a wonderful way to put it. My only quibble maybe would be, I don't so much like the word mind.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Because it makes it seem like a mental thing in a way. And maybe it's just, you know, this entraining is more like coming into the body. So it's like just everything that's in your life. Just everything that's appearing in your life, everything that you see or hear is your own self. And so Suzuki Roshi says, and you asked about becoming yourself, right? He says this funny thing. So becoming yourself in a practical way, in the most kind of basic way, just means, oh, I get to be who I am. I don't have to try to be anybody other than who I am. Like, I can't anyway. You know, we know this is like, typical advice, right? It's just be yourself and stop trying to be something else. And then you can kind of like more fully be with what's here and be more creative and be more spacious and be more present. So it just kind of means, you know, be the idiot you are. Let that be okay? And then there's a kind of wisdom there. But it also means in Suzuki Roshi's teaching, he says, becoming yourself when you are you yourself. And I appreciate that you said, you know, I can grok anything. I tried to read the Zen, my beginner's mind. I couldn't really grok it. He's speaking to the kind of intuitive thing. And that's, in a way, this is like the insight versus Zen approaches too, within Buddhism. It's a little bit more linear or instructional versus a little more poetic or kind of speaking to the intuition. So he says, when you are really you yourself, you include everything. So for him, becoming yourself is like becoming this life itself, becoming the life that you are, and then everything is included in that. So being yourself doesn't mean I'm myself, not you. It's like being myself is being the fullness of my experience, of my being alive, which everything is part of. So he says, when you're really yourself, you include everything. So then being that living in that way where everything is included, things aren't so separate. It's softening. This fixed view of inside and outside and then just meeting our life from that is trustworthy. It's a little bit better ground. We can be a good father, husband, partner, friend, worker.

[A]

Coming up, Jiryu talks about why life is not something to be figured out. The connection between intimacy and allowing and being more effective in your life.

[B]

Life.

[A]

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[B]

Thank you. Yeah, nothing to do. This teaching has nothing to do with being resigned to things, the flow of your life. Naturally, you know, we're part of it, we're responding, we're engaged. You know, some meditation teachers talk about mind or talk about awareness. I'm a little bit allergic to that language. I appreciate people who go deep through that gate, you know, I think arrive at a wonderful place and I don't think it's different from what I'm talking about. But awareness, I just get a little tangled up, like what's the awareness? Find the awareness, be the awareness, like what? I guess it makes me kind of back in my head. Whereas the just being alive to me makes a lot of sense. And that what am I? Who am I? This is also kind of Zen question, right? Frustrates the intellect, who am I? So people, you know, in like the Rinzai Zen tradition, I'm part of the Soto Zen tradition. But our friends in other areas of the Zen teaching like to ask these intense questions and just sit with them for a week, you know, in a room, you know, who am I? What is this? So what am I? You know? And our Soto Zen was just like, stop making such a big deal, you know, just be it. Just be it. You're not going to be able to figure it out. You can't actually figure it out. Suzuki Roshi says, if you really want to be yourself, don't try to figure it out. Figuring it out now you're separating from it, seeing it as an object and trying to get a handle on it. The point is that being alive doesn't have any handles. So being alive is. It's like the feeling of I. So for me to say what I am, who I am, is just life itself. That's not like an accomplishment or that's not like a special fancy thing. It's just the obvious fact. I am life. I didn't make that. And that life that I am, that's not separate from any of the other life, it's just. It's actually just one thing, you know, so Zukoroshi says, and again, maybe this is also a little far out, but he says, you know, you're not just part of this thing. You're not just part of this thing. You are this thing. We are life. And to be that self, even just to appreciate or just to even have that idea and breathe out with that idea, like, right, I'm just life, you know, creates this kind of ease and opening and softening. That, again, just really is good ground for our chopping wood and carrying water and going to work and solving our problems and trying to help the world. It's not. Instead of any of that, it's just kind of being honest about what's happening, which is, we are life itself, you.

[A]

Know, Let me try something and see how it goes over with you. This may or may not go over well with you, given that the Source is a insight meditation teacher. But there's no, I love.

[B]

I love the teachings. We need each other.

[A]

I'm just kidding.

[B]

We all keep each other honest, you know, I hope.

[A]

One of my favorite things to say about enlightenment is as soon as you're talking about enlightenment, you're in an argument, you know, because everybody. There's all these different views on what enlightenment is or means or. But anyway, setting that aside, the phrase that I'm going to run by you comes from a Burmese master who I've never met. I'd love to meet him. His name is Sayada Utasiania, and one of his instructions to his students is, while you're meditating, just to eventually to occasionally drop these three words into your mind. This is nature.

[B]

Beautiful. It's the same teaching. The teachings are all the same teaching. It's just different gates for different minds, you know, or different aspects. So this is nature. Is that what you said? Drop those three words into your mind. This is nature. One of the kind of the basic feeling of our being separate. So Suzukiyoshi is talking about intimacy or sharing in the feeling and sharing our feeling with things that are around us. Being in the woods, we really just feel the feeling of being in the woods, washing the dishes, in our kitchen. We just feel that feeling of being in our kitchen, washing the dishes. And he says, when you feel the feeling of being in the kitchen or being in the woods, that's dzazin in that kind of way of immediate, direct, just being our life. It's not like me plus nature, right? Like me plus the universe. Suzuki Roshi says, when you think you're acting on the universe, like you're outside it, what's outside the universe? You must be a ghost. If you're acting on the universe, you're a ghost, because where are you standing? So this is nature, this is life, you know, it's not me plus life. It's not me plus the universe. It's not even me plus you, you know, and we don't need to understand that with our mind. I think something about these teachings is like, they can resonate, and we can appreciate they're resonating, and we can kind of like, align with them without really understanding it, you know, I was sharing some Suzuki Roshi with another Zen teacher the other day. I said, you know, Sadaki Ryoshi has this saying that, you know, when you're just yourself, then Zen is Zen. And I said, I never understood. What does that mean? She said, yeah, I never understood what that means either. But I like how it makes me feel. You know, there's something about, like, letting these teachings talk to the part that understands them that I remember long ago. So I was at our kind of more monastic training place deep in the mountains around Big Sur and in California and doing this training. And during the summer, we have a kind of open time at Tassajara, where guests come in. And my mom visited, and we have our morning kind of sitting, and then we do our morning services, you know, this chanting. And that day that she was there, we were chanting this very obscure text by this 13th century Zen guy named Dogen Zenji and this very poetic, weird text about Zazen, you know, I was like, oh no, I'm trying to like make a good impression on my mom that she thinks I'm not doing something, something weird. And here we're reading this text that's like she, afterwards she was kind of like, yeah, you know, something like. Right. She couldn't have explained it, you know, or she didn't then like, give me a three point thing that it meant. But right. Like something was true about that kind of poetic way of putting what this being alive is and what our path as human beings is to appreciate. Suzuki Roshi, even though he does have lots of practical instructions like, you know, count the breath, but he's more like inviting us into a way of being that's a little less mental.

[A]

Well, I'm going to violate the spirit of this conversation and ask you a very practical question, please.

[B]

Do I want that.

[A]

I'm curious about the order of operations here or the connection between intimacy and allowing and understanding that everything that enters our life is part of our life, that we're not separate from it. How does that help us chop wood and carry water? By which I mean, how does that help us be more effective in our life, especially as we're dealing with problems.

[B]

When we're allowing ourselves to be a little more connected, a little more intimate with what's happening around us. Zen talks about the appropriate response. So the appropriate response or this kind of great activity, it's sometimes called the appropriate response is like the appropriate response. An ancient Zen teacher was asked, you know, what's the teaching of your whole lifetime? And I think this was Yunmin, and he said, an appropriate response. So just that ability to be actually present with and responsive to what's happening around us. So for example, I use. I'm talking to my friend who's having a hard time. I may have all kinds of ideas about their life right, and what they should do, how they're doing life wrong, you know, and that's what their problem is. And they've got to hear it from me, you know, So I have some idea. I kind of have something figured out. They're over there, I'm over here, I know something and I'm going to tell them. I'm going to do something to them, you know, like tell them how to get their life together. We maybe know, you know, that kind of way is likely to not be so helpful. Suzuki Roshi says, when you're in that kind of separation, it's going to be really hard to help people because you're not actually letting them help you. It's a little bit of a different topic. But a beautiful thinking says you can't help somebody if you're not letting everything be helping you. You can't be intimate one direction, you know, I'm going to help you but not let you help me. It's like, no, either the window's open or it's closed. Know, so I'm talking to my friend when I can actually just settle my mind a little bit, feel that natural warmth, you know, that innate love that we have. This is part of our faith, part of the teaching and Zen. We love each other, we love everything. We get that all covered over and tangled up, you know, and get confused into thinking that we hate. But we actually, in our being, you know, we are not separate from each other and we know that and we love each other. We have this inherent innate loving heart. So here, intimate with my friend who's telling me something, feeling their presence, letting the thoughts quiet down. I don't know what the response is going to be. When you're talking to someone, say a loved one or a friend, wouldn't you like them to not know what they're going to say back to you already? You want them to actually be present, listening, and neither of you know what they're going to say because what they're going to say back to you is like related to what you said to them. It's not related to all your ideas or moral code or system of understanding the three point thing they're supposed to do. It's going to come from a responsiveness like I'm right here with you, I hear you. And now, wow. Look, without necessarily thinking about it, something of my intuitive wisdom, my whole life experience meeting your pain and your words now something just happened together and so I'm responding. I think we can all feel that difference where sometimes we're even a little bit surprised by something that we say, you know, because it was like it wasn't coming from my prior idea, it was actually coming from a kind of presence in the moment. But we don't trust that. We don't trust that we think like, no, you don't understand. I really need all my thinking to get through the day. So that's why we just try it in little ways. And the teaching is actually, you will have what you need. You'll be more effective if you're actually more in touch with what's in the room. So like I'm in meetings all the time. You know, maybe people think the abbot is like sitting meditation all the time, but I'm like, in meetings all the time, you know, and if I kind of know how that's going to go, or I know my approach, or I know the problem, or I know what that person needs to be doing different or whatever, and then I'm coming in with that. It's not going to be as helpful as if. Yeah, I have my. All my views, you know. Sure. I was thinking about it all day yesterday because it's a stressful thing. So I'm coming in. I have all my ideas about it. But then when I'm there with the person, if I can actually just let all that quiet down and really try to be listening and present and intimate, it's all included in my own life. And I just am curious about it and here with it. And now something can happen. It might be the same thing that I had planned to say, but it's with a kind of presence or, you know, I'm in traffic and I'm like just that feeling of all of these people are impinging on my life. All of these people are keeping me from, you know, where I'm supposed to be getting. As opposed to, like. Right. Actually, these. I mean, in the Buddhist sense. Right. Without these people around you, you're not alive. There's no life without this traffic. In that moment of traffic, the only way you're alive is with the traffic, you know, so. Right. Okay. All of this is my life. 60 years from now, I'll have wished I was present, you know, in the car with. It's not against me. So then, yeah, I mean, how does that help? I don't like, lay on the horn and stick my head out the window and like, rage at the people because it's like, welcome. I can include it a little more. And again, it's not an either or, like, either you're raging or you're like one with everything. It's just a kind of softening a little bit more in the direction towards breathing out. Really. Everything welcome, everything included.

[A]

So if we can allow ourselves to be in this intimate, receptive mode, which again, we can train through zazen, well, then when, quote, unquote, problems emerge, like traffic, we can view them with more wisdom and handle them more effectively. And we're responding not from a place of our prior ideas, which are all coming from the demon cave, but in fact from this mysterious, ineffable wisdom to which we all have access. If we can drop out of Our thinking, dualistic minds.

[B]

Yeah. In traffic. And also with. My kid is having a mental health crisis, you know, my mom is dying, you know, the pain of the world to let. You could say innate wisdom, you know, and that might. Somebody might say, well, that sounds good, you know, but I don't have that. Another way to say it is kind of like the wisdom of the whole situation. So Zen is kind of like softening and becoming sort of. I don't know, maybe we shouldn't say about becoming one or just including everything. Including everything. And then there's a kind of a wisdom that comes from that whole situation that's a little more than what I myself was bringing. The thing that I figured out and that I'm bringing is not complete. And when I'm open to the whole situation, some kind of responsiveness or something can happen that's more connected and complete. So maybe to say this ineffable intuitive wisdom makes it sound fancy. It's more just we can trust ourselves to know what to do when it's time to do something. And we've experienced that really in a daily way. We just know, you know, somebody needs something. We know what to do without thinking about it. It happens all the time. And yet still in a pinch, we clench around the thinking. So it's just more like trust. This thing that you already know that you have, which is the kind of gut, you know, we're talking about Hara or Belly. We have this gut kind of feeling like we. We kind of know what to do. And that's an amazing thing about being a human being. We don't know how we got here. We don't quite know what it is, but we know what to do, you know, and it's a mess, you know, it's a mess. It's all kind of pain and suffering and struggle. But to say, right, I don't have to figure out what to do. I have to figure out how to be born, you know, then have to figure out, you know, how to grow up. I have what I need and I'm ready to say I'm sorry, you know, that's not like, oh, I'm using ineffable intuitive wisdom. Everything I do is perfect now. It's the feeling. Zuki Roshi has a beautiful thing. He's talking about the precepts, right? The ethical precepts. And he says, do not kill is like a dead precept. The living precept is I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know, it's not like, oh, I'm indefable wisdom. I'm beyond reproach. It's like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm just here, alive, trying to do my best, but not do my best by figuring it all out. Do my best by breathing out and trying to touch into this just love and connection. That's just what we already are.

[A]

So I have this, I think, somewhat incurable, linear way of thinking, which I'm gonna, like the Kool Aid man come bursting through the wall and ruin all of this poetry. But I'm making a little map on my notes in front of me, but it feels like the order of operations. And again, please quibble is something like, we develop this capacity we have to be intimate or receptive, inclusive in our mind that then allows us to respond with authenticity or spontaneity from our gut rather than from our preconceived notions. From this, you're correct to point out that terms like embodied wisdom or innate wisdom sound a little grandiose. It's more just like the fact that we often know what to do. So that leads to an appropriate response, which then leads to a perpetual willingness to admit when you up when the response wasn't appropriate, therefore you say the words I'm sorry a lot.

[B]

That's the next appropriate response, right? Is to say I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[B]

And it's not, you know, even to say inappropriate response. It's just a little bit more appropriate than the response I was going to do. You know, again, it's not black and white. It's just about this is just a little bit more reliable way. Or the word I say to my friend will be a little bit more helpful. If I'm actually feeling present with them, it still might not be helpful because I'm actually an idiot and I don't know what they're going through, whatever. It's just. It's a little bit more helpful than if I had come and just sticking to my idea so we don't have to get into the extremes. It's just a little more reliable, a little more helpful, a little more appropriate if we're a little bit less in our mind and a little bit more. And the feeling of being alive that everything is included in.

[A]

You just used the word idiot, and I thought you used it earlier, but I didn't know if I was hearing correctly. I love the word and I think it's hilarious that you're using it. I think you said something earlier, and maybe this is me just restating it inaccurately, but something like authenticity Is the okayness to be the idiot that you already are.

[B]

Yeah, at one level. Yeah. And that idiot, turns out, is life itself. You didn't make yourself an idiot, you know, Everything in the whole universe since beginningless time made you an idiot, you know, so just be that. All the wisdom is there and all the confusion is there. All the conditioning is there, and you don't have to fight against it. And that doesn't mean you're just, like, not working on it. Because also what you are is someone who wants to be doing better. We have this kind of natural wish to improve, you know, that's just part of what we are as human beings. So if we misunderstand this, we might kind of get stubborn and say, like, well, I'm supposed to be an idiot, and I'm not going to try to learn more or be less of an idiot, because I'm just accepting that I'm an idiot. But that's not authentic. We are an idiot and we want to not be an idiot. That's, like, true about us. And so to say, like, I just let myself be an idiot. Or people say, oh, Zen says you just accept everything. So then you stop working for things, things to be better. That is so crazy to me. It's just so not the point. The point is to be yourself as you are. You want to be better and you want to help others around you. It's not like you're cutting that part of yourself off. On the contrary, you're becoming more that whole person that you are, which is, I hate everybody and I love everybody. I'm an idiot and I want to be better. All of that is included. And all of that is kind of a gift and a miracle. We don't need to quite clamp down, you know, I think we're driving it. We can be a little more easeful and feel as we exhale, you know, The Suzuki Roshi also has this beautiful thing. You just exhale all the way, and then sometimes you can notice breathing in. You didn't do that. You didn't make that. You don't have to be driving your life all the time. You can actually just, like, ride the wave a little bit sometimes. Let the life be moving you, you know, that's a little bit more like the intuitive present ways not separate from the thing, driving the thing. And it's so stressful to be driving our life because, you know, am I doing it right? Am I doing it wrong? We have that side. We include that side. But right. I feel that way. And also I can trust that I'm being carried here by everything. This is a miracle. From the moment I was born, I'm being carried. Even that I was born. So this is a gift.

[A]

Moment after moment I'm being carried. And yet I do have some agency and some desire to learn and grow. But that too is an expression of the universe.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. To take just one side and then say, now I'm just going to not move. Zen throughout the long centuries of tradition is like, don't be blocking anything. If you think you're supposed to be blocking some natural aspiration or natural ambition or natural self expression, you're missing the point. You know, it's to be. To use a more Taoist image. You know, it's kind of. Yeah. Just to be that flow of life, to be that flow of nature.

[A]

I can't remember who said it. Maybe it was your Suzuki Roshi. But some Zen teacher said, and I love this statement of the paradox, that you're perfect and you could use a little improvement.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So to be okay with your inner idiot is not to say it's not resignation, it's you're an idiot in that we're all flawed and we all want to grow. We all naturally want to grow and improve. And can we just be okay with both sides of that?

[B]

Yeah, I think of it as like more and more we include. So you hear this teaching, like, include everything. Okay, right. So I include that I'm an idiot. Yes. But also keep including. Don't stop there, you know.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Keep including, keep including. And you're also like in the Buddhist language, you know, you're also Buddha, you're also life itself. And then those things, you don't need to pick between them. You don't need to have them fight it out or, you know, in terms of like, ethical practice, in terms of how we live in the world. And that's a big part of becoming yourself. This book by Suzuki Roshi that we just put out is because we wanted to have a book by Suzuki Roshi that has at least some chapters that are more specifically about ethics or kind of like how we conduct ourselves in our life. And the example of, well, I want to lie, I want to be divisive, I want to kill, I want to hate. It's like, yeah, you can include that. You can welcome that. You don't have to be afraid of that or push that away or try to get rid of that. Welcome. Yeah, I really want to kill. I really want to hate. Welcome back. Include that. But also keep including. And we include more and more of who we are. It's like, right, Also, I really love everybody fundamentally. Also, I really don't want to lie, you know, that's all included too. And we don't have to then pick, oh, which am I going to do? We just let all of that be there. And then again, this appropriate response or this kind of like something unfolding from the totality, from the whole wholeness. Then whether I go left or right, right or left, everything was included. I didn't cut something off to hold on to something. I don't know if that makes sense. Cut something off. Like when I have a decision, I think I've got to cut one thing off and pick the other thing. Then even if I go left instead of right, this feeling that I had to cut one of those things off, and so it's not such a whole thing. Whereas in the process of the discernment or the decision, if everything was included, then there's a kind of wholeness. Of course I'm going to go left and right. I can't actually go left and right, you know, but I kind of did it in a way that included right and left.

[A]

Well, I guess where I get hung up is I think you are making a choice. You are being okay with your inner idiot and with your inner Buddha. You're including all of it, but ultimately you are. The appropriate response, as I understand it, would be to make a choice, usually to go in the Buddha direction rather than the idiot direction.

[B]

Well, going back to this appropriate response thing or what we were talking about about decision is like, and I don't know if you've looked into this some or if it's even true, but this idea of like, you're starting to move before the decision is made, I think that's actually true neuroscientifically. But you have to make the choice. I mean, come on, come on, Jiryu. At the end of the day, you have to make the choice. And it's like, okay, yeah, we could say in a practical way, it's sort of like the way I think of it is when I think I have to make a choice, then I have to make a choice. You know, I'm on the hook. But actually, if I can bear to stay in the not knowing and the presence, did I make the choice? I don't know. Did I make the choice to marry my wife? Did I make the choice to move to the Zen center? Did I make the choice to, you know, have green tea instead of black tea? Yeah, I did all those were choice points. And also there's a kind of unfolding. Yeah. When we think we have to make a choice, we have to be sincere with that. Absolutely. But I think part of this training that I'm talking about, or part of this learning to trust that things can unfold a little bit more naturally, a little bit less from our. Either or mine does kind of mean softening a little bit. This sense of like, I have to choose and a little more like, I wonder what he's gonna do. You know, and I care and I'm present and I don't. I have all these thoughts. It's all included so they don't have to fight these parts of ourselves, you know, this including everything. For me, especially with regard to ethics or decision making or problems, it's like all of it can be included. All of the parts of ourselves, all of our idiot self and our Buddha self and all that can be included. And. And we don't have to get into, like, killing one and empowering the other. We could just let that whole thing be there and trust that they'll work it out. You know, another part of the faith that, like Suzuki Roshi has, that's a big part of how he teaches ethics and becoming yourself is like the Buddha part. You know, when we really include everything that Buddha nature, you know, that innate love and inherent intimacy we have with everything, that's kind of going to win, you know, if we include everything, it's just a bigger. It's kind of like the sun and a candle, you know, my wanting to hate, my wanting to kill, and my actual innate love for things. They don't have to fight it. They can fight it out, but, like, the love is more like what I actually am. But people might doubt that, and that's fair to doubt, but it's just, you know, dip your toes and see if you can trust. See if you can appreciate a little bit these teachings.

[A]

Check it out and you may build some faith or confidence. That's a great place to leave it, I think. Jerry, I do want to recommend. Before I let you go, I just want to remind everybody that you've edited a new book that we've referenced repeatedly, Becoming Yourself Teachings on the Zen Way of Life, which is a compilation of the teachings of your teacher, Shunryo Suzuki, who you never got to meet, but is nonetheless a major influential force in your mind. We'll put links if people want to get the book and if they want to check out the San Francisco Zen center or the residential centers that are under it. We'll put some resources in the show notes if people want to go deeper. But in the meantime, Jiru, a total pleasure to meet you. Thank you for your time. You did a great job with us.

[B]

Likewise. Dan, thanks so much again. I really appreciate what you're bringing and who you're trying to resist and it's been special, it's been enjoyable to be with you. Thanks for your wonderful questions.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks again to Jiru Rushman Byler Just to say, we got a follow up from Jiriu after we recorded the conversation. As you might have heard, he mentioned a story about a kid asking how come no one is mentioning how nuts it is that we're all alive. As you may remember, he forgot who said that. Then it came to him after we stopped recording and the person who said it was Annika Harris. And that's funny that that's who he was referring to because that's the name that came to my mind as possibly being the person who said that. Annika has been on the show several times. I'll drop some links in the show notes to her appearances on this show. She has written an amazing book about consciousness and then followed it up with a fantastic audio documentary on the same same subject called Lights On. Also, she's a great friend. Don't forget that there's a companion meditation that comes with this podcast episode. It comes from our teacher of the month, Jeff Warren, and it's all about taking this concept of oneness and making it actionable. You can get it if you sign [e-mail] if you sign up, you'll also get invited to our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. The next one will feature both me and Jeff. We do these every Tuesday at 4danharris.com, go check it out. Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band island wrote our theme.

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