Father Gregory Boyle (6:20)

Great to be here, Dan.

Dan Harris (6:21)

It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Congratulations on your new ish book. And as I understand it, you wrote the book because you wanted to address these divisive times. And sad to say, things have become even more divisive since you wrote the book. So I'd be interested in sort of like your emotional color around the book and its subjects as you and I sit down to do this interview.

Father Gregory Boyle (6:46)

Well, you know, it was released on election day. Since then, I think we have this notion that what is divided is that we have people who hold certain views and other people who hold other views. I'm more inclined at the moment to think that we all are held not by views but by kind of an anguish that we share to varying degrees. And so how do we soothe that anguish? How do we choose community and how do we walk each other home to something that might resemble wholeness and health and well being. But we do think it's about winning the argument and that somehow our division is about the views we hold. But I think if we get underneath things, then we see that it's really kind of indicative of something else and that something that needs a dose of tenderness and gentleness and extraordinary kinds of kindness to help people ease this anguish that's really so pervasive that everybody shares, even if it's of kind, comes from different places. But it's not about the price of eggs. It's about a shared anguish that actually joins us together rather than separates us.

Dan Harris (8:07)

Do you think that anguish is a perpetual in the human animal or that there's something unique and acute about the anguish now in our culture?

Father Gregory Boyle (8:17)

Vivek Murthy, who was the surgeon general under Biden and Obama. He said that and has written a final document of his term as Surgeon General that I recommend. But he says that mental health is the defining health issue of our time, and I think that's significant. So if you look at a 300% increase in hate crimes, I don't know how else you explain that, except to say that mental health is the defining health issue of our time. Or, you know, adolescents who are hypnotized by their cell phones or locked in their room staring at a compute. Or the rise in suicides or fentanyl use and overdoses. In the last five years, I've done more funerals from gang members who have died of fentanyl overdoses than from gang violence. And the list is quite long. You know, 90 million people who could vote didn't. And that's just extraordinary. And that has nothing to do with disaffection with politicians. That's a kind of a lethargy that indicates, again, that mental health is the defining health issue of our time. Even the other day on the weekend when Governor Shapiro's house was firebombed and they have the perpetrator in custody, but they're talking about. Well, they're not certain if the motivation was religious or political. I go, gosh, I was gonna go with mental health because nobody healthy, well or whole, has ever done such a thing in the history of the world. It's very confusing to me that people would say, gosh, I wonder what the motivation was like. There would be a rational motivation that would lead somebody to do such a thing. And all we do is we kind of shake our fists and we say, this is unacceptable. I go, well, of course it's unacceptable, but what does it mean? It's not just the volume has been turned up and people are somehow led to do such acts of violence because of the rhetoric and the level and the velocity of it. It's another indicator that we're not whole. We're not well. So how do we get there? We don't get there by just shaking our fists at it and saying, isn't this awful? And this shouldn't happen. It's not okay. Well, nobody healthy thinks it's okay.

Dan Harris (10:51)

Well, let me just pick up on that last thing you said. Nobody healthy thinks it's okay. By it, I assume you mean sort of our political culture right now. Or are you saying, oh, well, that act of violence. But yes, that act of violence. Yeah, yeah, both.

Father Gregory Boyle (11:06)

Yeah. I mean, again, you know, I will be your retribution is the quote. But. But then you Stop. And you go, well, retribution is not the endeavor of a healthy adult, period. Not ever. It just isn't. And then I heard Newt Gingrich say the other day, but wanting payback is human. And it may well be human, but you could make the case that it's healthy. And so the goal is, how do we help each other become healthier tomorrow than we are today? We all could use that. That's the point of community. That's how people flourish. And in a community where they are cherished, they will start to move in the direction of wholeness and wellness. But it's not a moral quest, because the moral quest has never kept us moral. It's just kept us from each other. It's kept us from seeing that we could really choose to soothe and to be a calming, peaceful, kind presence to each other.

Dan Harris (12:11)

All right, there's so many places to take this discussion. Let me start here. The first chapter is called the Wild One. And it really a core concept of your book and a core concept of, like, how those among us who are healthy should handle the current situation is really wrapped up in your vision of what God is or who God is. You come back to this phrase, the wild one, and I'd be interested to hear you explain what that means and also just to address, because I think a preponderance, if not 90% of this audience is interested in spirituality, personal growth, but might be wary of the G word.

Father Gregory Boyle (12:53)

Yeah, well, the Wild One refers to Meister Eckhart, who was a theologian and a mystic many years ago, who was trying to kind of break the notion of the partial God that we've all settled for, the One that, created in our own image, leads us to be exacting and judgmental and puny. You know, he'll say things like, it is a lie. Any talk of God that doesn't comfort you. So he was way ahead of his times in terms of trying to locate a more spacious, expansive notion. And so people may or may not buy the notion of God. I dedicated one chapter so that I could somehow address a larger notion of it. So Saint Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, would say, always talk about the God who's always greater. So just when you think you've landed on some notion of who God is, we're led into this other, more spacious place where it's always greater than our tiny, puny view. So to the extent, I mean, even in 12 step recovery, when people talk about higher powers, in any case, the hope is that your higher power, or whatever notion you have gets larger and larger as you grow. None of us want to settle for a partial notion of that limits our ability to delight in each other and to breathe in the spirit that delights in our being and then to breathe it out into the world. Because the world could sure use it. Especially now.

Dan Harris (14:35)

We talked about this last time you were on the show, but I think it's worth covering a little bit of the same ground. Would it be, and I'll speak for myself as somebody who is a sort of open minded agnostic, I don't use the word God much, if ever. What would be another word that would rhyme with what you're saying so that we can have this conversation on verbal grounds, grammatical, linguistic grounds that we can both agree on. Would it be the universe, the mystery, or does it really have to be God?

Father Gregory Boyle (15:07)

I think what sustains you so wherever you find your center and where you find yourself grounded, however you talk about that, the sustaining spirit, the ground of being anything. And again, I don't do any kind of God that has a white beard and is male. I always say God protects me from nothing, but sustains me in everything. So it's the sustaining part that's kind of essential. So whatever you return to is the sustaining spirit and the core of your being by returning it. And I always appreciate in you your sense of practice, that you return in your practice to the ground so you can be freshly grounded, you know, so you can be every day returned to the core that sustains you, that allows you to receive people and allows your heart to be altered by people. Otherwise you're full speed ahead and you've lost your grounding. Sometimes. For me, just because I'm a Jesuit priest and I'm Catholic, I'm okay with saying God. It's shorthand for, I think, what we all hope for, which is the core of our being, the thing that you return to in your practice as a touchstone that allows you to have this intentionality in your life where you can say, I'm about to receive somebody in my presence and I'm going to allow this person to reach me and I'm going to listen and I'm going to love. Whatever allows you to live from that place is your God, is your higher power, is your sustaining spirit. So whatever language, and we're kind of limited probably by how we articulate this anyway, but that's kind of where I am on it.

Dan Harris (17:10)

I mean, that's a version of God that I can get behind. And as I was listening to you speak about what sustains you? I was, of course. And I'm sure everybody listening was trying to figure out for themselves. I was trying to figure out for myself what's my answer to that question. And I think it's probably a Buddhist answer of wisdom and compassion being the two sides of the same coin. Wisdom seeing the truth of non separation and interdependence and compassion arising out of that inexorably. You can also go from the other direction. But I think when I'm in that mode, I'm sustained, I'm open and resourced, I'm not an asshole. And when I'm out of it, who knows?

Father Gregory Boyle (17:53)

Yeah. And it's with every breath you take. It's not kind of once and for all. It's not even, I handled this in the morning and now I'm good to go. It's a way to touch it all the time so that you can be beneficially present to the world and to the people who. Especially here, you know, I'm in my office, every seat is filled out there in the waiting area, people come in and everybody's hair is on fire and everybody's stressed out. And so how can you be thoroughly anchored enough to be able to be present and delight and hold the mirror up and remind people of the truth of who they are? I think it's exceedingly hard to do, no matter how faithful you are to a practice that keeps you anchored. It's still hard because you're homies here. They always talk about don't let yourself be taken to that place. And everybody here knows what it means. Somebody pushes and you push back, as opposed to leaning in and being more curious about people's reactions to things rather than take things personally. It's a challenge. It's a good challenge. It's how we all want to. I was saying this morning, you know, that we have to choose to soothe and that half our family here who are there are 800 of us. Half of us on one day have their hair on fire, but the next day the rest of us will have our hair on fire. So how do we choose to be a soothing presence to people who are carrying more burdens than they can carry and often whose dignity has been denied and people who are really struggling. I was reading a poem by Denise Levertov where she talks about, instead of the phrase, you know, they're driving me crazy, she's talking about community drives us sane. And that's why that's important for us to be located in a place where everybody is supplying a dose of tenderness. And kindness driving us all sane, which is to say in Spanish, saying, you know, sanar means to heal. It's about health. It's not about reminding people of what is wrong or right. Governor Shapiro, when he was talking about this horrific thing that happened, again, it's his home, it's his family, I get it. But saying this is not okay. Well, yes, it's not. Of course it's not okay. But how do we understand when members of our human family act out in this way? People are in pain. Find the thorn underneath. The homies always say that here. Find the thorn underneath because you want to be able to understand that this is coming from a place not of legitimate rational, political or religious perspective. It's coming from real wound, real brokenness. And how do we help each other heal and how do we form communities where we can drive each other sane? And that's kind of essential. I think it's the only answer to the truth, that mental health is the defining health issue of our time. If that's true, it's not about good and evil. It's about well and not so well. For me, that softens it. So nobody needs to be a villain. And nor is it necessary to demonize or scapegoat. It's, let's just help each other. Knowing that love never fails. That's where our confidence is rooted.

Dan Harris (21:51)

I think love never fails. I could imagine people listening to this thinking, well, I tried turning the other cheek a few times and I got my ass kicked. Or some people are beyond my capacity to love. That's a sucker's game you're playing, Father Boyle.

Father Gregory Boyle (22:10)

Well, I mean, obviously I don't think so, because I really think on some level you can look back and you go, when did love ever fail? Because if it's about results or evidence based outcomes or I don't know what, or success, but that's not how you measure when it comes to love. It's discovering truly that loving is your home. And then you discover that you're never homesick. And that's where the joy is. It's not about results. It's just a force that is so sustaining and that in the end it will always conquer. It's just we need to have more of it. And healthy people are loving people, and healthy people are holy people. And healthy people are inclusive and non violent and have unconditional loving kindness and are compassionately accepting. That's what a healthy person looks like. I read an obituary yesterday. I didn't know the woman was in the LA Times and Said her overriding characteristic was that she had a moral compass. And then I thought about that. I go, well, any healthy person has a moral compass. It's not about a good person or a bad person, since we're all unshakably good. It's just a matter of, do we know this or do we not know this, and we belong to each other. Every healthy person is a holy person who has a moral compass. I don't think our current president has a moral compass, but that's not because he's bad. It's because he's quite ill. And so I don't need to demonize him. I just have. Actually, I have huge compassion because nobody chooses to be that ill. I think illness, however we explain it, can choose, but we don't choose illness. It chooses happens. And because that's. They're part of our human family, then how do we help people walk home to wholeness? So then there's no moral overlay. You can certainly say it's not okay to throw a Molotov cocktail into the governor's house. That goes without saying. But you want to kind of get underneath it. You want to understand where's this coming from so that we can be helpful to people who are inclined to throw a Molotov cocktail. That's why, you know, for 40 years, I've worked with gang members, and you've had a lot of politicians and a lot of law enforcement people who are tough on crime. And I always knew that if you said you were tough on crime, it just meant that you weren't serious about actually reducing it, because there was no desire to get underneath and understand what this is about so that you could address root causes. I suppose we kind of cut to the chase. We name things incorrectly, and our diagnoses are really quite skewed and off because we're kind of mired in this sense of what's right and wrong, and it's why we don't make progress. And I'd love to make progress. And I think love never fails, inasmuch as that always makes progress. Always. Whether people can perceive it or not, it's always making progress. And the more you can remind people of their true selves in loving, the closer you get to actually advancing where there is peace and there's justice and people tolerate and love each other.

Dan Harris (26:03)

Just to put a fine point on the love never fails. And playing devil's advocate, maybe that's a loaded phrase in this context, and saying you're playing a sucker's game, that some skeptics or cynics might say that. I want to be clear. You have a little phrase that I like a lot, and you've kind of hinted at it in this conversation up until now, and it's this that you can resist without demonizing. Now, I'm going to use my own language, and you may or may not agree with this, but in my view, you can take quite strenuous action from a place of love, caring, compassion. In fact, you could probably do many of the same things you would do from the standpoint of anger or hatred, but it has a very different quality. If it's motivated by caring and loving for the doer, it's a much cleaner burning fuel. It's much less likely to burn you out. And I think it's much more. More likely to contribute to successful caring action. Okay, I said a lot of words there. Agree or disagree.

Father Gregory Boyle (27:03)

I think. How do you kind of measure your response to things? To the extent that you demonize or make somebody a villain, then you know you're on the wrong track. It doesn't mean that you're any less clear about actions that are unjust and not respectful of due process and all the things that we're going through right now. But the us against them just creates the division. Whereas you and I would both agree that separation is an illusion. And so how do we remind ourselves that there is no us and them, there's just us? And if you can cling to that, and especially to the notions that everybody's unshakably good and we all belong to each other, once you dispel of that notion that separation is bound to happen, then you can roll up your sleeves. And so cherishing love is love with its sleeves rolled up. It's really active. It's connective tissue. It's really trying to get people to a place where they feel more and more inhabiting the truth of who they are. And so systems change when people change, and people change when they're cherished. And I see this here all the time. Folks who come in here and they start here and they're belligerent and they're really difficult. They're in your face and you're trying to cherish them. And it's a challenge. But you know, that in the end, it's so remarkable that that kind of dosage that people get, it's so compelling that they always come back. Even if they disappear for a while, even if they have a relapse of either violent behavior or drug involvement, they always come back because it's so compelling to have been cherished. But you watch it happen. You watch people are transformed because they were shown kindness. I believe in it fully that we don't need to limit where the healing comes. I used to think if healing is primary here, then people need to be doing therapy. And we have therapy and we have anger management and we have all these classes and groups. But because everybody embraces the spirit of cherishing and acknowledging and welcoming, that's what's compelling. All the other stuff is good and necessary, but because it's a constant, everybody is applying a dose to each other and it's a bombardment of cherishing love. It really wins the day. Even if you see kind of bumps in the road where people are having difficulty, in the end, it's what conquers the hate. I mean, nobody healthy is hate hates. And so gang members come in here and they're filled with hate. Hate for their parents or hate for their baby mamas or hate for rival enemy gang members. And it all dissolves. Once you're in a community that drives you sane, it all goes away eventually. And you can kind of take that to the bank.

Dan Harris (30:32)

Coming up, Father Boyle talks about how to build intentional communities to counteract polarization in the world. And yes, I know everybody talks about the importance of community. How do you actually do it? We'll talk about that with Father Boyle. He also talks about a practice he does called affectionate awe and how to catch yourself when you're in a judgment spiral. Craving your next action packed adventure? Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms. Unleash your adventurous side with gripping titles that keep you guessing. Exclusive, captivating Audible Originals. I'm actually about to record my own Audible original. It's not an adventure, it's a. Well, I guess it's an adventure inside your mind. It's a how to meditate book. Anyway, they've also got hotly anticipated new releases. Must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Whether it's heart pounding suspense like the Audible original Mad Love, which is a fantasy romance adventure like Onyx Storm or a listen with the lights on epic like Stephen King's latest Never Flinch. Plus more big releases like Freda McFadden's the Tenant and Amelia Hart's the Sirens. I just finished a book called There There, which is excellent. Really loved that book by Tommy Orange. And now I'm reading a book called Blood Test which is. I'm not going to give anything away here, but the conceit is that you can take a blood test to find out what you are going to do in the future. So I'm just the beginning of the book. I have no idea how it goes, but it's a cool conceit and my friend Zev recommended it to me anyway. Audible has over a million audiobooks, podcasts and originals, all one very easy app. Their app is super easy to use. Start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now for free for 30 days and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com 10% T N P R C N T Or you can text 10% again t e n p e r c n t to 500 500. That's audible.com 10% or text 10% to 500500 imagine you're a business owner who has to rely on a dozen different software programs to run your company, none of which are connected. And each one is more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you will ever need and they're all connected on one simple, easy to use platform, giving you peace of mind that your business is always being taken care of from every angle. Odoo has user friendly open source applications for everything. We're talking CRM, accounting, inventory, manufacturing, marketing, hr, HR and everything in between. Basically, if your business needs it, Odoo's got it. Odoo sounds pretty amazing, right? So stop wasting your time and money on those expensive disconnected programs and let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Doesn't get much better than that. So what are you waiting for? Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level by visiting odoo.com that's o-o o.com, O-O-O.com, odoo Modern management Made Simple. I listen to this and I can imagine others listen to this and think that sounds amazing. How do I. And how do we create communities that drive us sane?

Father Gregory Boyle (34:02)

Part of it is trying to fashion some place even groups. We're so isolated and insular, you know, we really live solitary lives and people have written books about all of this and we're kind of bowling alone, you know. And you gravitate to anything from a book club to a church to a school to a classroom to a community like we have here, which is the primary focus here, we'll help people get their driver's licenses and their Social Security card and their legal matters cleared up. And the list is long of concrete things that people need to address. But because we're here together, we're surrounding each other. You know, I was sharing this morning, in our morning meeting about yesterday, we had an earthquake in San Diego, and I could feel it in Los Angeles. And they had this clip at the San Diego Zoo where the elephants, the adult elephants gathered when the earthquake hit. They gathered all the youngins, they put them all in the middle, and they formed this circle around them. And it was called an alert circle is what the zookeepers called it. They move into this formation where they're surrounded by a calm and soothing presence. And you can see the younger elephants in the middle of the circle become palpably calmer because they're surrounded. And then when the danger seems to have disappeared, the circle opens again and they resume whatever elephants do. You know, I thought that's what we do here. We surround each other. And you choose. It's kind of our intentionality is to soothe people. So again, anyone who walks through our doors here comes barricaded behind a wall of shame and disgrace, and the only thing that can scale it is tenderness. And so inasmuch as they come with a disorganized attachment where mom was frightened or frightening, and truly, you can't calm yourself down if you've never been soothed. You have to be retaught that you have to learn it for the first time even. And so it's kind of how we surround each other here. So to the extent that you can create intentional communities where you can be surrounded and you can engage in that activity of surrounding the others, I think there are a million ways to do it.

Dan Harris (36:42)

Listening to you speak about the elephants, I was thinking that that surrounding is soothing for the babies, but I would imagine soothing for the grownups too. There's something about soothing somebody else that is soothing for the soother.

Father Gregory Boyle (37:00)

Absolutely. That's a key insight because that's part of the engagement, you know, because where is the joy? You know, Jesus talks about, my joy, yours, your joy complete. And the joy is in being able to surround people and to be a source of delighting and safety and protection. And the joy is in being seen, but also be the person who sees. That's a key thing. Saint Ignatius of Loyola has a meditation where he says, see Jesus standing in the lowly place? And it's not Jesus indicting. He's not pointing. He's not saying, get your ass over to the lowly place. It just says, see him standing in the lowly place. And it's evocative because it makes you think, why is he standing there? What's he look like? Is he peaceful? There's something about him being in the lowly place, choosing that in all humility, that is life giving for him. And so though he's not beckoning you, all you are seeing is him there. And then pretty soon you kind of have this. I'll have what he's having. I want to go over to that place because I think it's where the joy is. Which is the important part about being a soothing presence in the world. Exactly as you say, is that you are soothed. That it's exactly the thing that pulls you out of your own self absorption, that keeps you always reminded that loving is your home. And then you go, wow, I am not homesick at this moment. I'm not missing anything. There's nothing missing here. Which is a kind of a key insight as you kind of move out of your own self absorption into the concern of somebody else who's perhaps distraught or in anguish.

Dan Harris (39:09)

Yeah, I've just seen that play out in my own life. One of my little jokes, and it's not really a joke, is that if you're doing self improvement or personal development, spiritual growth, if you're doing it correctly, you should feel like you've been an idiot your whole life until six weeks ago, always. And so in that spirit, I'll say that for most of my life, I. I've lapsed too frequently into selfishness. The more in my later years that I've learned occasionally to be the soother, the happier I've become. Which is counterintuitive because you would think the route to happiness is accumulation, achievement, acquisition, et cetera, et cetera. In fact, while some of that is necessary, it seems in my experience to be about to be a little grandiose about it being a beacon, being a source of comfort and safety. You know, when you have the resources to do it.

Father Gregory Boyle (40:06)

Yeah, and use the word selfish and I try to stay allergic to like. Selfish is kind of an indictment as opposed to self absorption, which is kind of just a human. You know, if you're attentive to how you are being self absorbed, then you're also attentive to how you are sad, how you're stuck. I'm not a big sin person because I don't think it helps as a notion. It keeps us from progress. Just as evil does, and certainly just as hell does, none of it is helpful. It really keeps us from progress. So in the same way that selfish is a kind of a. It denotes you've done something bad, as opposed to you've slipped into some concern about yourself, which is natural, but the joy is on the other side of that. You know, if you can move quickly from self concern, like will I have enough? And what about me? And then instead you move to, does she have what she needs? Is he receiving all that he needs at the moment? Suddenly you're in the realm of joy. That's where the joy is. But we don't know that and we forget that which is the key to our own practice, is to remind ourselves with every breath we take that that's where the joy is. Would that that insight was once and for all? Because sure, be nice if you could just decide that like a switch and turn it on and it never goes off, but it's a constant.

Dan Harris (41:52)

Yeah, you can set it as a North Star. And it helps to have practices, as you said. So let's talk about that. I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the practices that you recommend in your new book is, I think this is either a Spanish or Portuguese word, a caramiento, which translates as affectionate awe. Can you unpack that and also talk about how we can practice it as a way to get some of what Jesus has in the lowly place?

Father Gregory Boyle (42:18)

Yeah, it's a word that St. Ignatius uses in acatamiento. It's Spanish and it comes from the word acatar, which means to look at something with attention. Again, it gets, as you say, it's translated as affectionate awe. And though it was born, no doubt, as a result of some mystical, singular moment between Ignatius and his God, I would like to think that Ignatius hoped it would be a disposition, a stance at the margin. So if the idea is to go to the margins and stand there, that's the only way that they actually get erased, is if we stand out at them. And not to rescue or save or fix the folks on the margins, but to go there so that the folks on the margins change me, alter my heart. And that's when things become exquisitely mutual between anyone going to the margins and anyone at the margins. But it's a disposition, it's a stance, it's how ought we to stand at the margins? Not as saviors, not as people who will transform lives, but with affectionate awe, where you can receive people and allow your heart to be altered and to be reached by people, because just that stance alone is able to remind people of the truth of who they are. And so everybody entering in a mutual way into that sense of truth and well being and inhabiting the core of their own being, the ground of their being. So, yeah, it's a practice and it's an intentionality. How can we stand in awe at what the poor have to carry rather than in judgment at how they carry it? But that's not just for the poor and the folks at the margins. It's learning a practice that can lean in and be curious about what's going on, rather than exacting and wrathful and judgmental and all the ways that we had images of God that really have never been helpful. So it's a way of being in the world that can receive people. We're always going to be judging, but we can move from it being a moral judgment to kind of a health assessment where there's no sense of this is a good person or a bad person, but a sense of, yes, this person's in pain, this person is broken, this person is wounded. And so in the process, you are welcoming your own wound. Otherwise you will be tempted to despise the wounded. And despising the wounded is kind of where we are in our country at the moment. Because that's the greatest symptom and indicator that mental health is. The defining health issue of our time, is that we despise the wounded. The immigrant, the gang member, the drug addict, the homeless person. The list is long. And the reason we can be tempted to despise the wounded is because we haven't welcomed our own woundedness, which requires humility and vulnerability and an acknowledgement of the pain that we all have to carry and the anguish that we struggle with.

Dan Harris (46:01)

This does not sound like a simple. I mean, on one level it is simple, but it's not easy, this practice. So how can we put it to work in our own lives and make sure that we're consistent with it?

Father Gregory Boyle (46:15)

Well, things cannot be easy, but they can also be clear. There's a kind of a clarity to it. Yes, I'm kind of a stickler on the thing about everybody's good. So once you get that out of the way, then you never have to judge whether somebody is good or bad. You can say, well, people are relatively healthy or not so healthy. You know, if you can say, today I wasn't that healthy because I was short with people and I didn't listen and I wasn't anchored in a desire and a longing to Listen and to love. And that's not about sin. That's just self absorption won the day, but it doesn't have to. And none of us are well until all of us are well. So how do we inch our way to that place? But in the end, what are we to do except to put one loving foot in front of the next? I don't know what else to do. Otherwise you get caught up in sort of global concerns that keep you from action rather than spur you on. And so again, it's like Mother Teresa says, it's not doing great things, but small things with great love. And then it becomes doable. Then you're kind of just in the moment and what's the next tender loving thing? I can do that.

Dan Harris (47:43)

In particular, that last thing you're saying seems very practical just to hold the question in your mind throughout the day and try to come back to it as a mantra or what's the next. I mean, this is a recovery phrase. What's the next right thing? What's the next loving thing? As a North Star, it seems pretty solid.

Father Gregory Boyle (48:06)

Yeah, I think it is, you know, and the right thing, again, keeps us in the binary right and wrong part. But if it's the next loving thing, you're not toppled by whatever behavior you're encountering. This is a silly example, but I was in Glasgow, Scotland, with two homies, Caesar and George. They had never flown across the Atlantic and never had to need passports. But we were speaking at a conference and we were in a hotel every morning. I said, well, I'll meet you at 8 and we'll walk to the conference where we spoke. They were always on time. They were always waiting for me. They were sitting in the lobby in these big plush chairs. And as soon as they saw me, very loudly, they'd say, hello, Govna. And I was mortified. And I was texting my staff at home. I was going, how do I get them to stop saying hello, Governor? And they sent it out in public and, you know, they'd see an impressive architectural whatever, a building or a castle, and instead of saying, wow, they would kind of survey it and say, hello, Governor. And it's funny how it bothered me. I was embarrassed and people were looking and of course, nobody speaks like this. And then I just made a decision. I remember I said, lean in, be curious about this. And in no time I had moved from my own kind of weird embarrassment mortification where I knew what it was. We were speaking to a church at one point during our trip and George, who is very Even Keel is never excited about anything. He said very calmly to this audience, I cannot contain my excitement in being here in Glasgow. Well, you could have fooled me. He didn't seem excited, but that's what it was. They were just positively out of body. Good giddy to be there and for us to be there together. Pretty soon, I just wasn't bothered. It was my issue. It wasn't their issue because I had leaned in and I was curious about something that was bothering me in their behavior. I realized that I had entered into this whole other understanding. I was comprehending something. It seems silly, but it was really kind of. It was instructive to me because comprehension means to get underneath it. What does it mean when somebody says that or does that? And pretty soon that just is so expansive. And then you're kind of. It's like you have a mystical lens where you can look at behavior and you go, what's that about? What pain is that representing? What wound is being excavated in? This person's insistence on something that you're finding annoying? But then you move beyond it, and it's really old dog and new tricks. You know, this old dog learned something new, and it's sort of stayed with me, and I've tried to kind of utilize it. There's something there. We're always judging. Our feet hit the floor out of our bed and we start judging immediately. But you can catch yourself, as my friend Pema Chodron says, you know, catch yourself being judgmental and then. And you do this agiari contra, which is what Ignatius talks about. Go against your inclination to be mortified, Go against your temptation to judge. Go against this idea that you're going to disparage somebody because of some behavior, and then get underneath it. Comprehend. We talk a lot about compassion and empathy, but then there's this whole other comprehension piece where you understand, oh, I see where this is coming from. And that's liberating.

Dan Harris (52:24)

I think there's a French expression, to know all is to forgive all, or something like that. And so it feels very related. Understanding the causes and conditions that lead up to somebody's current behavior, that is a form of love. And I believe Thich Nhat Hanh talks about love being understanding, at least looked at from one angle.

Father Gregory Boyle (52:46)

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. But we settle for our judgments because they're comfortable. Yeah, you know, it's clear and we're right and we're insistent. I remember we had a council meeting, which is a bunch of homies, and we're talking about Our trainees. And one guy was complaining about one of the trainees and he says, you know what his problem is? He thinks his shit don't stink. And another guy said, no, I think everything he smells, stinks. So it was a difference between somebody who had done the work and excavated his own wounds and was familiar to somebody who was going to cut to the chase and say, here's the problem. All of you are naive. He just thinks his shit don't stink. And I go, yeah, I'm going to go with this other homie who knows his own wounds enough to recognize that this behavior is a language and it's indicating something that probably needs our attention. I like that better.

Dan Harris (53:50)

I'm with you. And it really does show how self love, self compassion does inexorably or at least can inexorably lead to loving and being more compassionate toward other people. Because it can help you get to this new paradigm that you're suggesting, which is instead of judging, once you, you start seeing it through the health assessment, like what is going on for that person. Yeah, because you've done it for yourself.

Father Gregory Boyle (54:17)

I haven't figured this one out entirely, but I think it's that the health assessment is the opposite of the moral judgment. It takes out all this stuff about us and them or bad or good or villain or enemy. It insists there's no such thing as them, that really, truly it's just us. And the only way to maintain that is to allow people to belong, to really imagine a circle of compassion and then imagine nobody standing outside that circle. That's our insistence. We won't let anybody stand outside that circle. But you do get to a point where you just say, except this guy, he needs to be outside the circle. But you have to catch yourself. You have to say no, that this is a kind of a truth. If you insist on it, then you really will do the work, which requires your steady practice. But you're really going to do the work. To say, I will do everything I can so that this person feels welcome inside this circle. I don't ever want to reject them or send them elsewhere. And so you dismantle the barriers that exclude, which is the primary job of loving is so that things become more inclusive tomorrow than they were today.

Dan Harris (55:47)

Coming up, Father Boyle talks about some of his own antidotes to despair, his own daily practices, many of them deeply influenced by Buddhism and more craving your next action packed adventure. Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms. Unleash your adventurous side with gripping titles that keep you guessing exclusive Captivating Audible Originals I'm actually about to record my own Audible original. It's not an adventure, it's a. Well, I guess it's an adventure inside your mind. It's a how to meditate. But anyway, they've also got hotly anticipated new releases. Must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Whether it's heart pounding suspense like the Audible Original Mad Love, which is a fantasy romance adventure like Onyx Storm, or a listen with the lights on epic like Stephen King's latest Never Flinch. Plus more big releases like Frida McFadden's the Tenant and Amelia Hart's the Sirens. I just finished a book called There There which is excellent. Really loved that book by Tommy Orange. And now I'm reading a book called Blood Test which is. I'm not going to give anything away here, but the conceit is that you can take a blood blood test to find out what you are going to do in the future. So I'm just the beginning of the book. I have no idea how it goes, but it's a cool conceit my friends have recommended to me. Anyway, Audible has over a million audiobooks, podcasts and originals, all one very easy app. Their app is super easy to use, start listening and discover what's beyond the edge of your seat. New members can try Audible now for free for 30 days and dive into a world of new thrills. Visit audible.com 10% T E N P E R C E N T or you can text 10% again T E N P E R C e n t to 500 500. That's audible.com 10% or text 10% to 500500 imagine you're a business owner who has to rely on a dozen different software programs to run your company, none of which are connected and each one is more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you will ever need and they're all connected on one simple, easy to use platform, giving you peace of mind that your business is always being taken care of from every angle. Odoo has user friendly open source applications for everything. We're talking CRM, accounting, inventory, manufacturing, marketing, hr, HR and everything in between. Basically, if your business needs it, Odoo's got it. Odoo sounds pretty amazing, right? So stop wasting your time and money on those expensive disconnected programs and let Odoo Harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Doesn't get much better than that. So what are you waiting for? Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level by visiting odoo odoo.com that's o-o o.com O-O-O.com odoo modern management made Simple. The book again is called Cherish Belonging, the Healing Power of Love in Divided Times. And you talk about creating a community of cherished belonging as an antidote to the polarization and hate and division we're seeing in the, in the world right now and in particular in the United States. And I'm just curious, what's your level of optimism that things will improve, no less, that will actually create a writ large, a community of cherished belonging?

Father Gregory Boyle (59:26)

I always say hopeful rather than optimistic, but I'm hopeful. I'm completely hopeful because being here, which is very sustaining for me, it's the front porch of the house everybody wants to live in. And so that's okay to be that simultaneously with helping people concretely, jobs, training, money in their pocket, recovery, all those things are concrete and helpful. And at the same time, we're the front porch of the house everyone wants to live in. So you want to hold up some kind of. You don't want to hide your light under the bushel basket, put it out there where people can see it. And that's kind of important to me here because it's like the great John Lewis used to say, we all live in the same house. And it was declarative, it wasn't aspirational. It was, one day we might live in the same house. No, this is who we are. We all live in the same house. You know, and it's not about, some are in the basement and some are on the first floor. No, we all live in the same house. So the more you can kind of announce that with your lives so people can see it and say, yeah, we need more of that, or we need to find, I need to find a way to do that in my own life where we're intentionally inclusive and dedicated to soothing each other in our anguish because we don't really hold different views, were just held by the same anguish. And so how do we intentionally move closer to the home that we're all invited to, of wholeness and well being and health?

Dan Harris (61:17)

Did you ever see that movie the Year of Living Dangerously? It came out in the 80s.

Father Gregory Boyle (61:21)

Oh yeah, yeah, Great movie.

Dan Harris (61:23)

Yeah, great movie. Mel Gibson before he lost his fucking mind. And there's a scene in there where he's talking to his co star, whose name I've forgotten, and she says something to the effect of he's bemoaning the state of the world and what do you do about it? And. And she says, you know, you just add your light to the sum of light.

Father Gregory Boyle (61:48)

That's right.

Dan Harris (61:49)

And that seems to rhyme with yes, with what you're saying today.

Father Gregory Boyle (61:52)

That's so right and true. And I'm remembering that line. And otherwise you get overwhelmed and you think there's nothing you can do. And that will lead to a kind of despair. But we're hopeful, anchored in the ability of what I can do right at this moment, not even today. But what can I do right in this moment as I am breathing, that just puts it in its place where it needs to be, which is me doing the next loving thing that I can do and being attentive, you know, because that spirit of acatamiento is from the word akatar, which means to look at something with attention. And so in my language, I suppose I'd say you notice the notice of God and then you become that notice in the world. A homie ended an email with me the other morning, and we email every day. I call him my spiritual director, but he ended his email by saying, today I will surrender into the arms of God, then choose to be those arms. And that's kind of the whole law and the prophets right there. Because it's about receiving the tender glance and becoming the tender glance. It's about noticing the notice of God and then choosing to be that notice in the world where you are looking at things with attention. It's the mystical lens, it's how to see the world where you surrender to however you want to say it, to the core of your being, to the ground of your essence, and then choosing to be that spirit in the world all at the same time. It's exhilarating. I think it is.

Dan Harris (63:51)

I can feel it in my body as you speak. I would just add one little potential tweak, which is you use the word mystical, and maybe this isn't a contradiction, but it strikes me as very practical. You can acknowledge the mystery, the fact that none of us knows shit, and also decide that the smartest way to live in this confusing situation is to be as useful as possible. And all of that lines up with what we know from modern psychological research about how to be a healthy whole person in the world.

Father Gregory Boyle (64:25)

Yeah, and we get tripped up by a word like mystical because it feels like it's not meant for me. But I recommend a book, Mirror by Ordinary Mysticism. And she talks about how to connect this mystical view to ordinary living and how it is to be recognized in that. So it's not some otherworldly sense, but it's only in this world and in the present moment.

Dan Harris (64:55)

So I may have asked you this question before and you mentioned your long running friendship with Pema Chodron, which I believe we talked about the last time you were on the show. I'm curious, like for you personally, your life at Homeboy Industries is a practice, but do you have some sort of personal meditation or centering prayer or some sort of practice that allows you to stay anchored in a very demanding environment?

Father Gregory Boyle (65:22)

Yeah, I mean I get up really early, like 2:45 in the morning. It's ridiculous. But I spend my a lot of time in, in that practice along with having something to eat and checking emails, which is when I kind of do. And then I check in with my spiritual director every morning. Yeah, that's my practice. I mean I have my little chair and my little altar and my little space. And then I try to do other ways to kind of reconnect my own breathing to the present moment, to if there's a lull in the action, which is rare around here. But when there is, if I'm walking to my car, I try to find the peace in every step that I take. And I always call it breathing in the spirit that delights in my being and then breathing it out into the world. It's like breathing, inhaling and exhaling. It's not meant to stay singular and with you it's meant to always be exhaled out into the world with every loving step you take. How do you do that? That's my practice as a kind of early morning thing. But I'm beyond the idea that there's a once and for all to your morning practice, God knows, because as soon as I'm all set to go and I'm walking into the office, suddenly you're bombarded with 93 unrealistic demands placed on your time and your. And you can lose it. So you want to be able to carry that through the whole day. It's a challenge. Cherishing is not hard, but remembering to cherish is exceedingly difficult. And so you always want to remind yourself to remember.

Dan Harris (67:13)

Yes, yes, you probably know this. And this is one of my common riffs. And we can close on this. Is that the word mindfulness, the original translation of that word in the ancient language of Pali. The word is sati s a t I. In the Pali language, we translate it as mindfulness, but the original translation was recollecting, remembering. That's the practice.

Father Gregory Boyle (67:34)

That's excellent. That's helpful.

Dan Harris (67:36)

You are excellent and helpful. Father Gregory Boyle. Final thing I'll ask of you before we let you go. Can you just remind everybody of the name of your new ish book and then anything else you've put out into the world that we should know about?

Father Gregory Boyle (67:47)

Oh, well, it's called Cherished Belonging, and you probably have the subtitle right there.

Dan Harris (67:54)

I do. I'll say it. It's the healing power of love in divided times.

Father Gregory Boyle (67:58)

There you go. I knew it was something like that. I don't know. I love talking to you and with you and listening to you, and I'm a big fan, so thanks for the invitation.

Dan Harris (68:14)

That feeling is heartily mutual.

Father Gregory Boyle (68:16)

Thanks.

Dan Harris (68:17)

I really look up to you. And I just also want to recommend one of your previous books, which is Tattoos on the Heart, which was recommended to me by my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein. And everybody should look at and consider supporting the work of Homeboy Industries. Father Boyle, thank you again. And if it's okay with you, maybe the next time I'm in la, I'll send you an email because I'd love to meet you in person.

Father Gregory Boyle (68:40)

Oh, please come by and get the cook's tour of Homeboy.

Dan Harris (68:45)

Okay. Thanks again to Father Boyle. Love that guy. I would love to meet him in person someday. And a reminder, head on over to danharris.com where you can get a guided meditation that is tailored to this podcast episode. The idea is we're going to help you get the wisdom, Father. Boil and pound it into your neurons in an abiding way. The meditation is called an antidote to nihilism. It's all about how to stay engaged as a citizen without losing your mind. It comes from our teacher of the month, Don Mauricio. She's doing all the guided meditations for our Monday Wednesday episodes this month. Head on over to danharris.com many other perks for membership over there. Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the awesome people over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote RP.