Anxious? Confused? Powerless? A Four-Part Recipe for Staying Centered From a Buddhist Nun. | Ayya Anandabhodi

Summary

Podcast Summary: Anxious? Confused? Powerless? A Four-Part Recipe for Staying Centered From a Buddhist Nun | Ayya Anandabhodi

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of 10% Happier with Dan Harris, host Dan Harris engages in a profound conversation with Buddhist nun Ayya Ananda Bodhi. Released on July 30, 2025, the episode delves into practical strategies for maintaining centeredness amidst the chaos of modern life. The discussion is anchored around four key techniques to reclaim personal equilibrium, drawing from both ancient wisdom and contemporary practices.

Centering in Difficult Times

Ayya Ananda Bodhi introduces the concept of centering as a foundational step toward achieving calmness and equanimity. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining one's center of gravity amidst external chaos, such as overwhelming news cycles and social media distractions.

Aya Ananda Bodhi [06:25]: "If your center of gravity is between yourself and the screen or just in the news, you're kind of groundless, and that makes you weak."

Dan Harris echoes this sentiment, highlighting how outsourcing our sense of stability to external sources can leave us feeling powerless and anxious.

Four Techniques for Centering

1. Connecting with Nature

   Ayya underscores the intrinsic connection between humans and nature, advocating for spending time outdoors as a means to ground oneself.

   Aya Ananda Bodhi [15:09]: "We are nature. If we go and spend time with a tree or take our shoes off and stand on the earth, we'll just go outside for a minute and look at the sky. It changes us."

   Dan adds his personal experience of grounding himself by lying on the ground in the countryside, contrasting it with the limitations of urban environments.

2. Body Awareness

   Focusing on the body, particularly the feet, helps anchor the mind in the present moment. Ayya provides a practical exercise involving the hands and breath to cultivate this awareness.

   Aya Ananda Bodhi [20:22]: "Hold the thumb of your left hand with your right hand and bring it down to your dan tien, a couple of inches below the belly button."

   Dan describes the soothing effect of this practice, likening it to calming a restless cat.

3. Conscious Breathing

   Deep, mindful breathing is another essential tool for centering. Ayya explains how engaging the diaphragm and focusing on the breath can alleviate anxiety.

   Aya Ananda Bodhi [20:34]: "Wrap your right hand around your left hand and breathe into that spot. Feel your feet on the ground and your belly rise and fall."

4. Pausing in Emotional Responses

   Ayya highlights the power of taking a deliberate pause when experiencing strong emotions like anger. This pause allows individuals to respond thoughtfully rather than react impulsively.

   Aya Ananda Bodhi [23:12]: "Taking a pause empowers you to feel anger without acting on it, preventing further harm and chaos."

   Dan relates this to his personal struggle with panic disorder, illustrating the transformative impact of simply allowing oneself to experience and acknowledge uncomfortable emotions.

Understanding Anxiety and Anger

The conversation delves deeper into how anxiety and anger are natural responses that can be managed through centering techniques. Ayya explains that these emotions are forms of energy that, when acknowledged, can be transformed into positive states like presence and confidence.

Aya Ananda Bodhi [13:06]: "Feelings are transient. If you try to fight them, they grow bigger. But if you turn towards them, they change and fade."

Dan shares his experience with panic attacks and the relief found in not repressing these emotions but rather confronting them head-on.

Exploring the Four Noble Truths

Ayya and Dan engage in a brief yet insightful overview of the Four Noble Truths, foundational teachings in Buddhism that outline the nature of suffering and the path to its cessation.

1. There is Suffering (Dukkha):

   Ayya clarifies that dukkha encompasses a range of unsatisfactory experiences, not just overt suffering.

   Aya Ananda Bodhi [37:22]: "Dukkha ranges from mild discomfort to intense suffering."

2. The Cause of Suffering (Tanha):

   Often translated as desire or craving, tanha refers to the attachment that leads to suffering.

   Dan Harris [37:39]: "Tanha is the clinging, the craving that keeps us trapped in suffering."

3. The Cessation of Suffering:

   There is a way to end suffering by relinquishing tanha.

4. The Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering:

   The Eightfold Path serves as a guide to overcome suffering.

Centering vs. Equanimity

Dan seeks to differentiate between centering and equanimity. Ayya explains that centering is the initial step that provides a stable foundation from which equanimity—a balanced and calm state—can emerge.

Aya Ananda Bodhi [41:37]: "Centering gives us an anchor, a place to experience what's going on. Equanimity is the calmness that arises from this stable foundation."

She further elaborates that equanimity is not about suppressing emotions but about maintaining a balanced perspective in the face of life's ups and downs.

Our True Nature and Compassion

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on understanding our true nature and the role of compassion. Ayya describes our true nature as inherently luminous, compassionate, and present, often obscured by our identification with fleeting thoughts and emotions.

Aya Ananda Bodhi [58:32]: "The true nature of the mind is luminous and bright, obscured by clouds of thoughts and feelings."

She emphasizes the importance of compassion—not only towards others but also towards oneself—as a means to reconnect with our fundamental humanity and mutual interdependence.

Aya Ananda Bodhi [70:54]: "Compassion for oneself and others allows us to understand the struggles of being human and fosters connection."

Dan relates this to Father Gregory Boyle's perspective, reinforcing the idea that harmful behaviors often stem from underlying trauma or mental illness, deserving of compassion rather than condemnation.

Conclusion and Resources

In wrapping up, Ayya highlights the ongoing journey of clearing mental and emotional clutter to reveal a more authentic and compassionate self. Dan encourages listeners to apply these centering techniques in their daily lives to cultivate resilience and happiness.

For those interested in further exploring Ayya Ananda Bodhi's teachings, she directs listeners to her Dharma talks on Dharma Seed and her personal website, parianabihara.org.

Additionally, listeners are invited to access a guided meditation tailored to this episode's themes, available through Dan Harris's website [e-mail].

Notable Quotes

• Aya Ananda Bodhi [06:25]: "If your center of gravity is between yourself and the screen or just in the news, you're kind of groundless, and that makes you weak."

• Dan Harris [11:24]: "You have to just let the panic rip. Panic is just a feeling."

• Aya Ananda Bodhi [24:21]: "Managing anger is like being a true charioteer, guiding powerful horses in the right direction."

• Dan Harris [35:38]: "The Buddha recommended a radical move of sitting with these feelings to decondition our habitual responses."

• Aya Ananda Bodhi [57:52]: "The true nature of the mind is luminous and bright, obscured by the obscurations."

This episode offers a comprehensive guide to navigating emotional turmoil through mindfulness, body awareness, and compassionate understanding. Ayya Ananda Bodhi's insights provide listeners with practical tools to enhance their well-being and foster a deeper connection with their true selves and the world around them.

Transcript

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Foreign.

[Dan Harris]

This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing?

[Marissa Schneiderman]

In these chaotic times, it is so.

[Dan Harris]

Easy to lose your center of gravity, to outsource your equilibrium to the gyre, to the miasma, to the phone in your hands.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

So today I'm talking to a brilliant.

[Dan Harris]

Buddhist nun, Aya Ananda Bodhi, about four simple ways to reclaim your center. You literally cannot hear this stuff enough. I think of this as Mindfulness 101. Instead of running away from your difficult feelings like self medicating with booze or shopping or doom scrolling or denial. The move, and this is counterintuitive, but.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

The move is to feel your feelings.

[Dan Harris]

Fully, to let them pass, and to.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Make a sane decision on the other side. Respond, not react.

[Dan Harris]

It's one of the venerable meditation cliches and a cliche I actually like, and it's a decent recipe for becoming at least 10% happier. Aya Ananda Bodhi is the Spiritual director of the Pariana Vihara, a monastic residence in Port Townsend, Washington. She was raised over in Wales, Wales in the uk. She first encountered Buddhism in her early teens and started training as a nun at the age of 24. In this conversation we talk about what centering means and how to do it when you're in the middle of a tough situation. And she'll have some very practical tips on this score. We'll talk about the difference between centering and equanimity, how to break out of old patterns in your life, the power of pausing. She has this great thing which has really stuck in my head about how anger is can be justified but not helpful. I love that. Think about that. Justified but not helpful. We'll do a quick but deep tour through the Four Noble Truths, which is a foundational Buddhist list, perhaps the foundational Buddhist list. We tackle the tricky topic of our true nature from a Buddhist perspective. And we talk about the vital role of that trickly and often misunderstood term compassion. If you want to get better specifically at the radical skill of pausing, of learning to respond instead of react, we have a guided meditation for you specifically tailored to this conversation, and you can get it [e-mail] it is the final meditation from our Teacher of the Month, Don Mauricio. Our Teacher of the Month for August will be the mighty Kyra Jewel Lingo, herself a former Buddhist nun. As a reminder, we're putting out bespoke companion meditations to go along with all of our full episodes, the ones that come out on Monday. Wednesday you can get them [e-mail] and if you sign up, you also get live video sessions with me where I do a guided meditation and take your questions. You also get ad free versions of this podcast and much more. We'll get started with Aya and Annabody right after this.

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[Dan Harris]

Aya Ananda Bodhi, welcome to the show.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

[Dan Harris]

Pleasure to have you here. Just to give listeners a little peek behind the curtain here. Very frequently, when we have a guest and the guest doesn't have a book that we can draw from, one of our producers, in this case Marissa, the mighty Marissa Schneiderman reaches out to you, and you guys had a conversation. What would you like to talk about? And then Marissa writes me up a memo. I was reading the memoir, and it says right away that your chosen subject, what you wanted to talk about, was centering in difficult times, in what I would call a shitstorm, but probably not a dharmic term. It may be slightly obvious, but why did you pick centering?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah, I think centering because we have people come to practice meditation together and discuss Dharma, and then it's time to talk about what's going on and how people are bringing their practice to their lives. And, of course, what's going on right now in the US Is very chaotic and stressful, and there's quite a lot of fear. People not really knowing what to do with themselves, how to stay centered and grounded in the midst of this. And what I found was people's center of gravity was in the news they were leaning into. You know, it's just like, what's next? What's next? And now what's happening? And now. And so they were losing their centeredness and losing connection with their own body, their own agency, really, and being pulled into this kind of vortex of chaos that was coming through the news, it is still coming through the news. And it was kind of an aha. When I heard that, I was like, ah. If your center of gravity is, you know, between yourself and the screen or just in the news, you're kind of groundless, and that makes you weak. And I feel one of the really important things at this time is that people don't lose their power and agency. This is what we all need to keep and rediscover. So I wanted to talk about centeredness because there are ways that we can center in our body, in the present that reconnect us with our own strength and our own power, our own agency. And that's what we need to do right now. Always really, but especially now.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, that's really interesting concept. It's like we're outsourcing our, as you call it, center of gravity to the miasma of social media and the news.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

And then people feel powerless, confused, powerless, anxious. And then when you're in that place, in some ways it seems to me that that's there's an intention, that's what is wanted, that people do feel powerless, that people do feel that they don't have agency. But actually we do have agency. We're human beings.

[Dan Harris]

I'm interested in your choice of language. So you chose the word centering. Is that synonymous with words like calm or equanimity to be a little bit more Buddhist about it or are there distinctions?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

I think it's not synonymous. It's the first step of approach to calmness and equanimity. So I think what happens is say there's a feeling of anxiety. You're looking at the news, it all feels really desperate. Maybe your life has been radically changed or the life of people you know have been radically changed suddenly and the trajectory feels dangerous and frightening and so anxiety arises. If we're not able to just lean back a little bit and center, then that feeling of anxiety just moves us into how can I get rid of this feeling. So maybe we watch something else, maybe we're just doom scrolling and so that sort of justifies the feeling. Or maybe we get into addictive habits, that something that eases the uncomfortable feeling of anxiety. When you can find a bit of centering in the belly, in the present, in the belly, in the body, then okay, the anxiety is still there. Can feel that anxiety and it's really unpleasant and it's like this and you're not running, it's like this and it feels like this and I don't like it and it feels like this and I'm still here and I'm still breathing and I can feel my feet on the ground and I still have my loved ones around me or whatever and I still have who knows what people are losing right now but you know, still have this moment, still have this body, still have this presence. So that gives a context within which to feel the uncomfortable feeling and then as you come into alignment with, gives the potential. I'm not saying it's always going to happen because it depends on your history and so on, but Trauma and various levels. But it gives the potential for that anxiety to start to just be energy because it's all just energy. Essentially that anxiety can start to turn into presence and strength, confidence, maybe even a certain excitement. Anxiety and excitement are very, very close to each other. Actually. Anxiety has that leaning back fear and then excitement has that same sort of trembling, but it's leaning forward into the possibility of what might come. So there are these ways that we don't have to get stuck, but if we're not centered, we sort of, we leave ourselves, we're somewhere else. And the mind is somewhere else because the body's feeling these not very nice feelings. So bringing body and mind together, you.

[Dan Harris]

Literally cannot hear this enough. It is kind of dharma or mindfulness 101. But in my opinion, you cannot hear this enough because it's so counterintuitive. We want for justifiable self protective reasons to self medicate with drugs, alcohol, shopping, scrolling, gambling, whatever it is. And yet the greatest source of comfort is to do this supremely counterintuitive thing of feeling, the thing you don't want to, that you're trying to escape.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah, that's very true. That's that first noble truth that the Buddha points to. The beginning of the transformation of the path. Yeah. And also what's really important is that what we're talking about is a feeling. A feeling. Feelings are so transient and ephemeral and yet they can feel so major and important and everything that we, you know, people can end up destroying their lives because they can't bear to feel a feeling. And if you think about, say, I don't know if you've ever had a, like a painful accident, something where you broke a leg or cut yourself or something and it hurt. If you try and feel what that feels like now. So I broke my leg a long time ago. If I try and feel what that feels, I can't feel it. It's gone, it's finished. So we're afraid to feel, we're afraid to turn towards those feelings because then they become so big in our minds. But if we turn towards them, there's. What is it? It's a sensation, it's unpleasant, it's changing and it's going to end whether we run away from it or not. All of those things are the same.

[Dan Harris]

It's reminding me of a process I've been going through recently. I have panic disorder. It gets touched off a lot in small spaces. I'm actually having dinner tonight. I not infrequently go have dinner when she's in New York City with Sharon Salzberg, amazing meditation teacher. Tonight, actually it's a double whammy. A double bill with Sharon Salzberg and Sylvia Boorstein. So it should be fun. Sharon has this diabolically small elevator and so I've been thinking for a couple of days this elevator and often I take the stairs, which is the worst thing to do. You are teaching the brain to be scared. But I am not going to take the stairs tonight. It's like, okay, let it rip. Panic is also just a feeling. Set of feelings are incredibly uncomfortable.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

And I'm sure you've got lots of clever tricks up your sleeve to manage it, but it still does. What it does is, yeah, well, I.

[Dan Harris]

Have a pair of fast acting Klonopin tablets in my pocket. It's comforting to know they're there. I won't use them, but yeah, I've got all sorts of tricks. The trick, yes, just let it in. It's like when my cat, you know, has his claw under the door to my bedroom and is rattling the door and wants to get in and I hate the fucking cat in that moment. And then I let open the door and he comes in, sniffs a little bit and walks away. And it's kind of like that with our feelings.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Very much so, yep.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, so we've established quite a bit here, but the natural question, which helpfully. Your memo, the one that Ewan Marissa put together, answers and so we will provide those answers to the listeners. The obvious question in the face of everything we've just established is how do you do this? And you list a number of very helpful and yeah, I think very powerful suggestions, the first of which is nature. I mean, maybe the list was in a random order or maybe not. How did nature get to the top of the list?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

It's probably a random order. That's not a bit like that. Nature. Yeah. So we are nature. You know, our bodies are nature. We survive through eating what grows from nature, breathing the air, which is nature, drinking water, which is nature. So we're nature, we're in part of nature. We've never been separate from nature, but we often live as though we are separate from nature. So. And that's got more, more and more so over the years. I mean, to live in a city, a city is created from the ideas and imaginations and creativity and brilliance of humans. That's what creates a city. And then we might put a tree here and a park there, but basically it's designed by people. And then we live in buildings that are often made of man made products that are designed by people. And then we're online and we're watching what people are creating. So this is all sort of human stuff and humans are part of nature, but we've sort of created our alternative world here within the world of nature. And the more we go into that, the more disconnected we can become from our true nature. What we are. And true nature has different levels. So there's the true nature of just like a human body, you know, what it needs to survive and a human being. And then there's like the deeper true nature, which we may or may not go into, I don't know. But basically, because we are nature and we are part of nature and we belong to nature, if we go and spend time with a tree or take our shoes off and stand on that earth, we'll just go outside for a minute and look at the sky. It changes us. So I don't know if you've ever tried, I don't know what your living situation is, but if ever when you're having a panic attack or when you're thinking about having a panic attack, you've ever gone and lay down on the ground and felt the support of the ground beneath you.

[Dan Harris]

I love to lay down on the ground. My living situation is highly conducive to this in that we live in the country. However, most of the places where I get panic are very man made airplanes and elevators, so not an option.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Which is interesting. Yeah, okay, yeah. So then remembering that we are nature, this body. So, okay, can't go outside and lay down on the ground, but the body is part of this, as the Buddha says, made up of the four great elements, earth, water, fire and air. So the body's made of. And it's not just a concept, this is reality. So what this is made of is the same as what the building is made of and what the earth is made of and trees and the whatever. It's a simple way of putting it in the Buddha's time, those four elements, but it's very simple. But its simplicity helps us to find the truth a bit. So you can also come back here to this body. Say I'm feeling anxious or a bit afraid. And then I come back to my body and I'm feeling, oh, trembling in legs and my feet feel like there's little cushions of air beneath and they're not quite on the ground. And, and then I can recognize that, and then, okay, where can I find some presence? So for me, feet is a really Good one. So I used to feel like I had those little cushions there, but now I can just say, okay, just feeling my feet in contact with the ground. And it's far from my head, so it's not. There's no thoughts in the feet. And I'm not thinking about. I'm not up here thinking about my feet. I bring my awareness down into the feet, and I can feel the feet in contact with the ground, and maybe they feel a little trembly, and then the ground feels pretty stable, and then I can invite more of a connection. You can even imagine roots going down if you like to, but just having a sense of connection to the ground. Another way is with the breath. Taking a breath, taking a conscious breath. If we're stressed or anxious, then the diaphragm gets tight, and then the breathing's up here. We're not really taking the full body. The full body isn't taking the breath. It's just like this. Put a hand on your belly. See if you can breathe down into your belly and breathe out. And the belly, in Chinese tradition is the belly center, is known as the dantian, an energy center. Just a couple of finger breadths below the navel and a little bit inside. I think in the Sufi tradition, they call it the calf. And it's like an energy center that's a place of grounding. So I think a lot of people, they're living up here. You know, the center of gravity is in the head or outside the head sometimes. And so you want to bring that center of gravity down into the belly, not just on the edge of the belly, but right inside. And then you find that it's like, oh, the pelvis starts to relax and there's more of a sense of connection, and the diaphragm starts to soften and so you can breathe more fully. So this is a place you can actually use that as a meditation. If there's a technique. You hold. You have your hand, so you maybe hold that thumb. You hold the thumb of the right hand, and you wrap the right hand around the left hand.

[Dan Harris]

Okay. Just for the listeners, your holding up your left hand, and then the thumb is dangling down, and you use your right hand to wrap around the thumb.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

And then you wrap your right hand around your left hand so that they're just sort of holding each other.

[Dan Harris]

Okay.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

And then you bring that down to your. To your dan tien, to that point a couple of inches below the belly button. And then when you breathe, you imagine you're breathing into that spot there or you connect your breathing with that place. So your hands are resting right against the belly. Don't imagine it. You can feel them. And then you're kind of breathing in connection with that place, almost breathing into there.

[Dan Harris]

It does feel good.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Good. I'm glad it's helpful. And you can do that as a practice every day, you know, spend 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 20 minutes is excellent because then it really gets going, and you're spending some time every day doing that practice. It builds on itself.

[Dan Harris]

I buy that completely. Just to recap, you've gone through three techniques that we can use to center ourselves, and I want to click deeper on several of them. One was nature, as the kids say, touch grass. There's something about getting out in nature that is really centering. And I want to. That's the one I want to go deeper on in a second. But you also, just to recap, mentioned bringing mindfulness to your feet and explain why that's powerful. And then taking deep breaths.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Taking conscious breaths. Yeah, conscious deep breaths. Yeah. And pausing is also very good. So we've spoken about anxiety mainly so far, but I think also what comes up for people's anger. People getting really angry, and then I get caught up in this anger because they feel powerless, frustrated. It shouldn't be like this, you know, and it's all kind of justified, but it doesn't help. So if we're caught in anger and then we feel powerless, then what are we going to do, you know? So when there's a lot of anger, it's not very different. Actually, the actual techniques are similar, but when you're caught in anger, it's really important to take a pause. Pause for a moment. I visited prisons earlier on in my monastic life as a Buddhist nun. And sometimes there were people in those prisons who were. I mean, their life circumstances were challenging. They had a lot of challenges, and they made a decision. They did something because they didn't pause for a moment. It's like if they'd known that they could actually just pause for a moment, feel a feeling, know a thought as a thought, and not follow it, then they would have been in a very different situation. And it does, again, involve feeling this unfortunately pleasant feeling. That's just part of it, but you're empowering yourself to feel that and not act on it. And it's amazingly powerful and strengthening when there's that anger and then you kind of. You're not shutting it down. Shutting anger down doesn't work. It just explodes at some point or you get sick. But Acting on anger doesn't work either. You create more and more harm, more and more chaos. And there's a beautiful simile in the Dhammapada in the Buddha's teachings where he says, one who is able to control their anger or manage their anger is like a true charioteer. So in the Buddha's time, you know, there weren't cars as if they were chariots or you walked. So you can just imagine, like, you're standing there, you've got these powerful horses, and you're guiding them. And if you don't really know what you're doing, you end up in the ditch. But if you're skillful, you can use the power of those horses. You don't want to shoot those horses. You know, you want the power of those horses. And then you guide it in the right direction. So you can guide it towards something beneficial. But you can only do that if you know how to be with that feeling and take a pause.

[Dan Harris]

I just want to reemphasize that the word you used empowering, in my experience, which is limited, especially compared to yours.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Different.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, Different. Thank you for the reframing. This uncomfortable, counterintuitive move of feeling whatever it is. You don't want to feel anxiety or anger. And realizing it doesn't kill you. It comes and goes, is immensely empowering. I was doing a therapy session today with somebody who's helping me with the big panic stuff. And he knew I was going to Sharon's house to ride the elevator tonight. And as we were signing off, he said, go kick that elevator's ass. Yeah, that might seem a little aggressive in a Buddhist context, but the spirit of it was. It was like, let it rip, man. You can handle these feelings that you've been running from. And that's the ass kicking.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, so I'll go back to nature in a second. But since we're talking about anger, the natural question is, and this kind of goes back to what I said earlier, which is, this is Dharma 101, that we literally, in my opinion, cannot hear enough. In part because I've heard this a million times, and I forget to do it all the time. And so how do I stop forgetting to apply what I know is the most successful technique?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Well, what I found is to see what happens when you don't follow it. So one of the things in the Buddha's path of teaching that I find really helpful is that he doesn't just pick out the nice bits. It's not just like, oh, if you do this you'll get a really lovely experience, and then you're going to get enlightened. It's watch the whole process of something. So say I'm feeling angry. Somebody does something and it triggers me, and I'm angry, and then I just say something. I just spit out my anger at that person. Then that person's gonna receive that energy. They're gonna either gonna hate me for it or fear me or start fighting with me. You know, it's not gonna have any good results. I've been a nun a long time now, so I've had lots of opportunities to learn. But long ago, I would do those things, and then I would experience the repercussions of it. Because the teaching is so much about knowing what's going on. And I watch the whole process. Then I'd see it like, oh, you do that. You say that you get that result, and you get into this complicated relationship you really don't want to be in, and it's really hard to get out of. And do I want to do that again? No, not really. You know, to look back at your life or look at what's going on now in your life and see what are the results of following that same old pattern. Is it leading you to more freedom, or is it getting more entangled, or are you moving more and more towards addiction? You know, that's another way that we avoid those feelings. It's. Is to keep running after a pleasant feeling. And those pleasant feelings, they are pleasant for a few minutes or a few seconds or a few moments. And then we're back with the original again. I see it as kind of clearing out the garage. It's like it's full of stuff. It's all cluttered up with all kinds of stuff that in here, in our body and mind, it can be just full of all this stuff. And we want to just not open that garage and just go to the nice sunny room. But there it is, you know, so if you actually go there and do the tedious work and maybe dirty work of clearing that out, then you've got a nice space that's useful. So it's similar with our minds and hearts.

[Dan Harris]

It's a really fascinating first step that you're advising here instead of, you know, in the context of you're looking at the news and you feel rage, or you're at the office and your boss is a dick or whatever it is. Like, your advice, if I'm hearing you correctly, isn't wagging your finger. And you must remember to pause. Actually, your advice is, yeah, you know what?

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Maybe as a first step, do what.

[Dan Harris]

You normally do, but with this little tweak, be mindful of it as you're doing your habitual actions, like, what does it get you? What's the payoff? And then once the mind is attuned to the suffering of our habitual modes of handling difficult emotions, it might be more receptive to what I keep calling this sort of counterintuitive but healthy move of pausing, feeling your feelings and then doing something saner on the other side.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Kind of what I'm really saying is I'm not really encouraging you to just go and do those same old things, but if you have to, then do them. You know, sometimes we can't help it. But if you can not do that and experience some and try a different way, it's much better. But sometimes we can't and we're just going to do that same old thing. But then, yes, if you have to do it again, watch it, watch the whole process, see where it leads and see what it takes you to. But you might be able to think of a past process and not have to, you know, do that. One extra right.

[Dan Harris]

Coming up. Aya Ananda Bodhi talks about the importance of pausing, how to break out of old patterns. We do a deep dive, but a very quick one, into the four noble truths. And we talk about centering versus equanimity. What's the difference?

[Marissa Schneiderman]

I'm not into chasing trends, but I am all about the stuff that fits, right, feels good and actually lasts. That is why I keep coming back to quints. You guys have heard me talk about quints before. I've had people come up to me in public and ask whether I'm wearing quints. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become truly my everyday essentials. My experience Quince has the kind of stuff that you actually wear on repeat, like breathable flow knit polos, crisp cotton shirts and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend and week hangs and dressed up dinners. The best part, everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markups. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Just yesterday, in fact, I was wearing.

[Dan Harris]

My go to Quint's pants for a.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Situation that was a little bit, bit casual but not too casual, so I couldn't wear sweatpants. I needed some nice pants. And I go to Quint's for that.

[Dan Harris]

That's not all I have from quints. I've got sweaters.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

I got socks, those little socks that you wear with low top sneakers that.

[Dan Harris]

You know, like look like you're not wearing socks.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Quints makes those too. They've got lots of stuff. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quints go to quints.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I-n c e.com happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. I even get my underwear from quince quints.com happier.

[Will]

Let'S map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Honestly Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer.

[Will]

That's not the itinerary we're following.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile. They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

[Will]

Bon voyage.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Introducing Family Freedom. Our lowest cost will switch our biggest family savings all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement eg Apple iPhone 16128 gigabyte $829.99 elig iPhone 11 pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel contact T Mobile When Marissa asked.

[Dan Harris]

You in reading this document that you and Marissa prepared in collaboration, you were explaining to her in the course of this document the importance of pausing when you're pissed. And Marissa asked what I asked. I basically copied Marissa. She asked you, you know, like, well, I know this. I, I Marissa is a serious Dharma student. She's heard this a million times. But I, I keep forgetting to do it. And one of the things you said to her was this can be a motivation to practice with more zeal. The technical term in the language of Pali, which is the language in which the Buddhist teachings were written down, is Chandra. It's kind of like a positive version of desire to practice. First of all, am I recapitulating that correctly? And second, would you be willing to expand upon it?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

First? So yeah, Chandra or Chanda in Pali, Chandra in Sanskrit, is this energy to transform the old patterns to get out of the old patterns There's a quote again from the Buddha. It says, get yourself out of this mess. Like an elephant would haul itself out of the mud. And I think that's kind of summed it up. It's like, just imagine it, you know, there's an elephant stuck in the mud. It's not going to just get out easily. It's got to work at it. It's got to really try really hard, and probably going to make a lot of noise in the meantime, but eventually it's going to get out. So get yourself out of this mess. Like an elephant hauls itself out of the mud. So once you kind of know you're in the mud, this is a key element. I guess if you don't really know you're stuck in the mud and you just. You don't have any great chanda or inspiration to practice, you're just like, yeah, it's comfortable, it's warm, you know, it's okay. But once you recognize, oh, God, I'm stuck in this mud and I want to get out, I want freedom. I don't want to be pulled in here all the time. That is an incentive for that chanda to arise. That zeal, that energy. And then that energy motivates, you know, I was going to say motivates your practice, and I'm a little bit cautious to use that word practice, because I think sometimes people think, oh, practice, that means I'm going to sit on a cushion and look really Zen and be really peaceful and centered and equanimous. And sometimes practice is very intense. You know, it depends what you're working with at any moment. But there's the practice to be present with what is arising, to bring in tools, you know, skillful means to meet what is arising and to endure what is difficult so as not to keep on repeating it over and over again so we can go in a different direction.

[Dan Harris]

I like this concept of deconditioning. We have all this habit energy to respond as if we're the sock puppet of our ego. And what you're recommending and what the Buddha recommended of this, this kind of radical move of like sitting with these feelings that we're spend so much time running from. It creates new conditions. It deconditions the habit energy and creates the new condition of, I have this superpower which is inside of me, to be able to sit with this stuff that I've told myself I can't sit with, but actually I can.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Exactly, yes. Yeah. And it does become a superpower. Yes. And then as time goes by, you know, I think when I first started to practice, I imagined that as you deepen in the practice, just less difficult things happen. Things just get easier and nicer, and the people you're with get nicer to be with. But it isn't like that. It's just your capacity to be with things as they are is greater, so there's less suffering. And it's not like the world suddenly becomes all nice. You know, lotus flowers are blossoming everywhere you walk or anything like that. It's just like you're okay or not. Okayness, there's a certain acceptance of. The world is like this, you know, the world is like this, and what am I bringing to it? How can I meet it in a way that's not adding to the chaos, the misery, the confusion? That's another way of turning towards. There's another thing of the First Noble Truth that you keep pointing to. It's like turning towards things as they are rather than the very high ideals of how we wish they were or how we wish we were. It's like, okay, let's just start from where we are.

[Dan Harris]

Just for the uninitiated. The First Noble Truth, according to the teachings, after the Buddha got enlightened, he spent a while by himself. And then the first public utterance came when he was addressing some fellow spiritual travelers, mendicants, renunciates, and he explained the four Noble Truths, the first of which is life is suffering, which.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Not quite. Not quite. Well, the first of which is there is suffering.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, well, it's often translated as life is suffering.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah, it's not quite correct.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, well, that's what I was just going to say, which is that first of all, you're saying it's not life is. It's. There is. And then suffering, I think, is also a bit of a mistranslation, because it's really kind of like unsatisfactory ness.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

It's a whole spectrum, actually. Yeah, unsatisfaction covers a broader spectrum, but it's from like the slightest little kind of meh to out and out suffering. It's that whole spectrum. So it's not saying life is suffering, but it's. There is duke. The word is duke. And that's like. It's a little bit off. It can be a little bit uncomfortable, or it can be like out and out suffering. I'm actually really enjoying hearing you speaking about it, so I'd like you to carry on.

[Dan Harris]

At this point. I have nothing else to say.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Go on.

[Dan Harris]

I mean, there are three other Noble Truths but we don't necessarily need to go into them.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

I think we should actually.

[Dan Harris]

But yeah, okay, we can, I'll, I'll say a bit and you please. I really appreciate how you gently correct me when I run afoul of the truth. The second noble truth is the source of suffering is tanha, which I believe is the Pali word roughly translate into thirst. Often we translate it as desire, but that's a bit of a tricky word because the Buddha's not saying you shouldn't want anything, I don't think. But thirst is a kind of like a clinging, grasping, craving. So when we are in a world that is non negotiably in flux and entropy, and if you're clinging to things that are not going to last, that is going to produce suffering. The third noble truth is there's a way out of this elephant in the mud. And the fourth is the cookbook, the recipe, the. It's a list within a list. It's the Eightfold path and kind of divided up into sort of a cognitive stuff about right view, you know, the right way to see the world, and meditative advice around, like right mindfulness, right concentration, right effort, and then ethical stuff around, right speech, action and livelihood. How am I doing?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah, good, very good.

[Dan Harris]

Yes, I have good teachers.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes, you do indeed. So each of those noble truths have three aspects. And so the first noble truth there is dukkha. The words dukkha, let's call it unsatisfactoryness or discomfort or however you want to call it, or suffering. The next piece is dukkha should be understood and then dukkha has been understood. So this is what we're pointing to is like okay, here it is. And then the knee jerk reaction is to get away from it somehow quick, you know, blame it on somebody else or self medicate or you know, spin out or whatever it might be. And dukkha should be understood. And my teacher in England, Ajin Sumedo, he used to say, stand under it, stand under dukkha, let it rain on you, let it just feel it, let yourself be drenched by it, it's okay. And then that leads to understanding what causes it, letting go of the cause. And then it can shift in the moment, but it's kind of a life path really. Yes, it just changes as we go along.

[Dan Harris]

Let me ask a clarifying question. So we started this conversation talking about centering. And then we went through four techniques for centering being in nature, bringing your attention to your feet or some part of your body that is always in the present. Moment rather than spinning off into the past or the future. Taking deep breaths and then pause, I asked before, right at the beginning of the conversation, well, what's the difference between centering and equanimity or calm? Not very helpful. I did not define either of those terms. But your answer in the moment was, well, the centering is kind of a necessary step on the path toward being calm and being equanimous. You can think of equanimity as like an okayness in the face of whatever happens. At least that's the way I think about it. And so can you just say a little bit more about this trajectory from centering to equanimity?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

So centering in the body, in the present, so the body is always in the present. Centering in the body, in the present gives us a place from which we can experience what's going on. It's like a. It's like an anchor, you could say. So also, what I've been pointing to, we've both been speaking about, you know, seeing the repercussions of acting on difficult feelings. You know, it's like it sets the whole thing rolling. So centering in the body gives us a place where we can feel those feelings, know them, and then we can reflect. You can reflect if you can just be with, okay, my belly is feeling really tight right now, and my chest is a little trembling. And then take those deep breaths. Feel your feet on the ground. So you're countering the tendency to spin out, bringing your attention into a more stable place. And then you can reflect. So I think opaque equanimity. I mean, it can come through meditation practice. You know, it's one of the things we can cultivate in meditation, and one can experience it in sort of more subtle states. But equanimity in the midst of the world is you need to find a place of centeredness. Sorry, I keep using the same word. But find a place of centeredness from which you can see the whole crazy mess of it all that we create. So the calm. And maybe calm is a little misleading because we can look for calm, we maybe want calm, but we're actually anxious. And if we're holding calm out as a carrot, then that can just create more and more anxiety. It can seem, like endlessly far away, but it's more like the calm is found by being present, by being here, by being with things as they are. So it's like we're looking for something outside of ourselves. Where we really need to look is right here in this body and mind, in this body. So it's like centering in the actual experience that is going on here and now. Because that's more real than the thoughts that are going on in the mind, the projections in the future and the memories of the past. So what's going on right now is attuned with reality. And the more we're attuned with reality, the more we relax and the more happy we are actually, even in difficult times. And the more we're misattuned to reality, we can be a happy, delusional. Actually, people who are very delusional can be very happy, but it's not leading anywhere beneficial. So, yeah, the more we're attuned to the truth of the way things are, then, I don't know, it all starts to come into alignment. That word power comes back. There's a power in that. You'll feel it in our body. And then there's also the mind. The mind starts to potentially starts to see a greater reality. Not just this narrow slice of reality that we see on the news, which is a bombardment of all of the terrible things that are going on. And maybe one or two nice funny things or nice things, but actually when we look at our life, is it actually like that? Or are they good people? Or even is there a tree nearby that's endlessly producing oxygen through the day and taking up carbon dioxide and producing flowers, leaves, and maybe even fruits? That's a good thing. So it's like the Paker is getting out of the small story of me and mine in a way, but the small story into a bigger picture of the nature of things, of how things go.

[Dan Harris]

Just picking up on the thing you said about the tree and the bigger picture. There are actually a lot of things I want to come back to in your last set of paragraphs. One of the things I want to just highlight from that. Do you remember in the 90s or the aughts, there was this very successful advertising campaign, I think on mtv when MTV was, you know, something that young people actually watched. And it was an anti smoking campaign. And instead of lecturing kids about how bad it was for you, which never worked, it was, they're trying to screw you. The big tobacco companies are trying to screw you.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

I was actually not in the US and in a monastery, not watching tv, so I didn't watch those. But yes, that's the way basically the.

[Dan Harris]

Message of the ads was, you know, you're being conned by. There's this image that cigarettes are glamorous, but actually you're gonna get lung cancer or whatever, here's what your lungs will look like. And I've thought, like, there's some version of that that we can do vis a vis the media. And I say this as a person who comes out of the belly of the beast. I was inside the box for a long time as a news anchor. But it's not just the news media, it's also the social media, both the news media, which is a much smaller beast than social media. But both the people who do what I do and the algorithms on social media are trying to convince you things are worse than they are. Because fear gets you scrolling, they keep you engaged, and they blind you to the fact that there are good people.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Quietly and with no attention whatsoever.

[Dan Harris]

All over the place, teaching kids in school, cleaning up the streets, holding the door open for people, sending somebody a text just to say, I'm thinking of you. That shit is happening all around us all the time, and there's nothing on social media about it. I'm ranting at this point, but do you see where I'm going?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because we're caught, we're caught. It's obviously very distressing, the people I meet anyway, you know, very distressed by what's going on in the news and yet. Keep looking, keep looking, keep looking. I guess it's a biological thing. If there's danger, you keep alert and you stay connected. But there is so much goodness. There's so much goodness in the world. So many and just simple little things. A mother taking care of a child and birds making nests right now in the springtime, you know, it's just like it's going on everywhere. And again, nature. Not that nature is all sweet and lovely. I mean, it isn't, you know, everything eats everything else, but there's a sanity to it. We seem to have lost that, the human race, to a large degree. But we are nature, so we can come back to it.

[Dan Harris]

And to be clear, I don't think either of us is trying to downplay the severity of what's happening in the world, the severity of the risks facing the species, from political unrest to AI to climate. It's just that. Yes, and there's just a lot of other stuff.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

And I think it's important to say that because it's not about just, you know, look at. Look at all the lovely things in the world, but if we. If we never look at those things, we lose our connection with our humanity in a way, and with each other. And I think that's where the potential for change lies for the better, is in us really connecting with our own humanity and our connection with nature and recognizing we can do something, we can do good, one individual can do a little bit, but together we have much more potential. But if we stay frozen or powerless or hopeless through seeing what the media puts out, then we're sort of. Our chances are much, much less, I think, of doing well.

[Dan Harris]

I said there were a few things that I wanted to go back to from your lovely soliloquy just a moment ago. One of the other things I just wanted to clarify is this connection between. I want to see if I can restate your assertion back to you and just make sure that I understand it and by extension, that the audience understands it. So, again, we started by talking about centering, which I think is really, really important. And I think what you're saying is centering is it's like finding someplace safe to be instead of outsourcing our consciousness to the gyre of the media. So it can be in nature, it can be in your body, it can be in your breath, which of course, is the. Almost pretty much the same thing. It can be in a pause. That is the step toward equanimity because it allows you. In fact, I was thinking, and I think this is true, pekka, which is the poly word for equanimity, I think is roughly translated into, like, seeing over. It's like seeing the bigger picture. And so once you're centered, you can conjure some wisdom. Was like, oh, yeah, this is. This is it. This is the cycle of suffering that the Buddha described in the First Noble Truth. And you can relax into it. That doesn't mean you like it, but you can navigate it more sanely. So am I describing this process accurately?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

You know, I want to speak about centeredness. And then you've. You're also bringing in opaque or equanimity. And this is something that needs a little bit of care. I feel equanimity because the English word, it sounds like everything's supposed to be even all the time, and you're not supposed to feel anything much. And you're not supposed to get, you know, moved by things. And that's not real, is it? Like, life isn't line up with that. And so, yes. So that translation of a bird's eye view I find really, really good, because the bird's eye view, so it's including the bird, so there's the bird that's seeing the bigger picture of things. And that could be on a time level. I find that one of the ways that it can be helpful to bring up a sense of UPA or evenness with things as they are is to look on like level of time. Several people have said, yeah, you know, this stuff's been going on forever. The Buddha gave these teachings because those things were going on then in the Buddha's time and Iron Age India, that's what was happening. And it's been happening ever since. And it's still happening. We haven't had it so much on our doorstep, although we've been part of it in America for many years, in other people's doorsteps. But now it's getting more real on our own doorsteps. But it's not anything new. This is part of what we do as people, as humans. So seeing it over that time scale can be helpful. And I've also found you're in the countryside, whether you ever just go outside and look at the sky, like at night, and it's so vast and then those little tiny dots and there's tiny little stars and it's like, wow, there's the suns and the Milky Way. Sometimes you can see the Milky Way. It's like, oh, that's like a slice of the galaxy. If you can allow your mind to open in that way. Which is another. This is something that you don't see in cities. Actually when you live in a city you don't see that perspective because all the light pollution, you don't see the sky in the same way. But if you can get out of the human made environment for a minute and look up that sky and then get a sense of, oh yeah, so those stars, they're like little suns up there, many of them. And then there's our sun, which is massive compared to our planet. And then there's our planet and then there's this continent that we're on and then there's this little tiny point on this continent where there's this little tiny person who's feeling so many feelings about what's going on. So I find that really helps. It's just like, oh, it really puts things into perspective. Is it so serious? I'm not saying is the situation we're moving into so serious? But is the thing that we're fearing or thinking about or feeling, how does that measure up in the context of the cosmos? It gets wild when you start going in that direction, the galaxy. And then there's like. Now that they've discovered there's probably trillions of galaxies in the universe. It's like it's impossible to even conceive that, you know. And then there's this one little spot here with a feeling going on in it that we feel like we can't quite manage. Well, maybe we can.

[Dan Harris]

My teacher, Joseph Goldstein talks about viewing what he calls the earthbound madness through the lens of Venus.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Dan Harris]

Perspective of Venus.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Oh, it's lovely.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Coming up, Aya Ananda Bodhi talks about the tricky and trippy topic of our true nature from a Dharma perspective. And we talk about how vital compassion is, even though it often can be overlooked as an empty bromide.

[Will]

Let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Honestly, Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer.

[Will]

That's not the itinerary we're following.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile. They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

[Will]

Bon voyage.

[Unnamed T-Mobile Representative]

Introducing Family Freedom. Our lowest cost will switch our biggest family savings all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement eg Apple iPhone16128 gigabyte 802999 eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact T Mobile.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

I'm not into chasing trends, but I am all about the stuff that fits, right, feels good and actually lasts. That is why I keep coming back to quints. You guys have heard me talk about quints before. I've had people come up to me in public and ask whether I'm wearing quints. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become truly my everyday essentials. My experience Quince has the kind of stuff that you actually wear on repeat. Like breathable flow knit polos, crisp cotton shirts and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. The best part? Everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quintz gives you luxury pieces without the markups. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Just yesterday in fact, I I was.

[Dan Harris]

Wearing my go to Quint's pants for.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

A situation that was a little bit casual but not too casual, so I couldn't wear sweatpants. I needed some nice pants and I go to Quint's for that.

[Dan Harris]

That's not all I have for quints. I've got sweaters, I got socks, those.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Little socks that you wear with low top sneakers that, you know, like, look.

[Dan Harris]

Like you're not wearing socks.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

Quint makes those too. They've got lots of stuff. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quints. Go to quint quince.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. I even get my underwear from quints quints.com happier.

[Dan Harris]

I do want to go back to nature for a second because you said something when you were talking about nature as a source of centeredness. I made a note to follow up on. You keep using this phrase, we are nature, which I love, and I use it a lot in my own practice, the way I often phrase it. And this is as I was taught by another teacher of mine, Alexis Santos, who's a student of Sayeda Tejania. Yeah. And he has a phrase that he uses in his teaching. This is nature. Everything in this experience in my mind right now, everything I'm seeing, taking in, thinking, it's all nature. There's no separation. You said something about you made a passing reference to our true nature and said, well, we may not want to talk about that, but, you know, our true nature. And I do want to talk about that. So can you go there, please?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Tricky to talk about, isn't it? Yeah. What is our true nature? It's one of those things that you can't really define, actually. So as I was saying those words, I was thinking, oh, probably shouldn't listen to that because it's hard to speak about. Yeah. What is our true nature? Is it this body, these feelings, you know, these perceptions, thoughts, sense experiences, you know, Is that our true nature? It's tricky to go there, really. I'm not quite sure how to speak about it in this context of a podcast with people who maybe don't have a deep practice.

[Dan Harris]

Well, many of these people do have deep practice.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Do they?

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Okay. Well, the Buddha does say that the true nature of the mind is luminous and bright and it gets obscured by the obscuration. So that could be like clouds passing over the sun. So the nature of our mind is bright, luminous, open, compassionate, present. That's its true nature. And then we somehow forget that. And we believe that we are the thoughts and the feelings and the body and the personality, the history, the story that we have. We mistake that for what we truly are. And as long as we're holding on to that stuff, if I'm really identified with this body as being me, it's dukkha. It's stressful because this body is doing what it's doing. It's changing, it's aging. It gets sick, it gets. Well, it's not necessarily the way I'd like it to look or as fit as I wish it was, or flexible, whatever it is, you know, but it is what it is. This is just nature doing this, this arising, this anandabodi ing over here right now, danning over there, you know, so nature's doing that, and then the habits and patterns of thought that we have, you know, that are conditioned. So when we come in as little babies, if you think of a newborn baby, it's just open, you know, it comes in with karma. From a Buddhist perspective, it's not like, you know, every mother sees it. Every. Every child is different. They come in with their own tendencies. But there's this openness. It's just like wide open. And then we learn things as we grow, and we learn that we're not just openness and we can't just be open and at one with our mother and with everything. You start to notice that there's separation and that things don't always go our way, and we have to sort of separate individually. And that's part of the process of life, is this essential. And in that process, we create these protections, which might be thoughts about our smallness or our greatness, or they might be fears, contractions. It might be rage, it might be greed, you know, always trying to fill a hole, the hole in ourselves with something nice from outside. So we do all those things because we've forgotten our true nature. And they kind of make it a little bit easier for a minute, but only for a minute. It doesn't really work. So coming back to our true nature is what we find when we settle. And, well, first of all, there is that clearing out of the garage that I was talking about earlier. If you've got a lot of regrets, done a lot of harm, then you've got to start repairing that. So when I first moved to the monastery, I was in my early 20s. I recognized I'd done quite a few things I kind of don't feel great about. And I've left some things with people that I. Relationships in bad repair. So I took time to repair those things as though I actually kind of went into that first year of monastic life as though, okay, I've only got this year of my life, and I don't know what's going to happen after this. So I just want to sort out as much as I can. And so I wrote to people and acknowledged and apologized and those who I couldn't contact, I just did it in my heart and acknowledged my fault and apologized. So there's the clearing out of things that we might be carrying that we have remorse over, and then there's the. The patterns of protection that we've created. That is kind of a large part of the work, really, of finding them, discovering what they are, feeling them, learning how to transform them like you're doing with the elevator, and then ultimately letting them go with those big fears. What's the biggest fear of all?

[Dan Harris]

Death.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

So if we can embrace death, if we can acknowledge we're going to die, this body is going to die, and there's no way around that that's going to happen sooner or later. There's no way around that. So if we can befriend that truth and know that this body will have to die and this personality will die along with it, and from the perspective of the spiritual path, the consciousness or the presence or awareness, it doesn't die along with you. This is where we get into tricky territory, because for a fully enlightened one, you get into kind of rebirth and consciousness and letting go. So from a Buddhist perspective, for an arahant or a free enlightened being, they lay down the khandas or the aggregates, the components of a person. They lay it down. When they pass away, there's no more looking for something else. But for those of us who haven't really fully let go of identification and craving, which is probably most of us here, then that craving carries on, that identification. It looks for something to take birth in, and we can experience it in a day, in a week. Wake up in the morning, and immediately as you wake up, the mind might just be open. And then, oh, there's me, and that's my schedule, and there's what I'm supposed to do. So we quickly fill that up with who we are and what we're doing and where we're going. And it's kind of similar on a level of the mind's doing that. And that kind of carries on but if we can befriend death, then there's nothing to fear. And it's not only having nothing to fear, but also because being fearless can be a little crazy if it's not balanced. But there's also the fact that we're human and every other human being on this planet is human. And people have got different levels of clarity and lostness. And yet we share this same basic humanity and also same potential for awakening. Everybody has it. We're part of every living being on this planet. Every creature that's breathing, we're sharing the breath. Every plant. Every plant is breathing. Without plants, we wouldn't be breathing. So we're breathing together with everything all the time. So we're part of everything. So there's like, death at the end of our life, and then there's losing oneself in the allness of everything right now, which is such a wonderful relief. And we don't have to be this person alone, isolated, struggling through life. And I think we fear that if we let go, we won't be able to function properly. We won't know what to do. And how are we going to. I think that the head is very much like that. The intellect, the ego as well. You know, it's like, oh, but I'm really important. You know, without me, it's not going to work. But, I mean, most of what's going on is beyond us. I mean, do we know how we digested breakfast this morning? I don't know how that happened, actually, but it's happened.

[Dan Harris]

Could you pick your pancreas out of a lineup?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Probably not. How is this is all happening? It's its nature. And the truth is, when we really let go into our true nature, then true nature is living through us. And true nature has the qualities of presence, clarity, compassion, wisdom. So that is able to live through us more fully rather than all of the stuff. The little person story.

[Dan Harris]

I'm going to do my little thing of checking to see if I have understood you. I'm going to add in some of the way I think about this, but with the caveat that I am not a Buddhist scholar, I'm not a nun or a monk. And so I may be making all sorts of cognitive and spiritual errors here, but in the Dharma, they talk about the three marks of existence, these three things that are true about the universe and part of practicing meditation and practicing the dharmas to come into a relationship with these three marks of existence. One is impermanence. We talked about it a lot. Everything's changing all the time. The second is suffering that, you know, if you're constantly trying to gather all of your loved ones and the abs you had in your 30s and your bank account into your bosom, it's going to be really frustrating and stressful because it's. Those things are changing and your body's changing and it's a fool's errand in many ways. And if you can relax into those two marks of existence, you might see that beneath it all, beneath the things that obscure our clear view of what's happening, is that it's all nature. There is no self that we need to build up and defend. Yes, it's true that we both have ID cards and Instagram accounts or whatever it is like we do exist on one level, but on a fundamental level there is no core nugget of Dan or Aya Ananda Bodhi and there's a, an enormous amount of rest and peace in having that experience, either as a little glimpse or as a kind of upgrade of the software that is a more abiding understanding of that.

[Marissa Schneiderman]

So that's kind of my bootleg version.

[Dan Harris]

Of what you said. Would you say I'm close?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes, very much so, yeah. It's lovely to hear you say those. And with the third one. So I think the first two are relatively easy to understand and the third one can be a little bit hard to understand. Another way I would put it, would be what we take to be me and mine is a process, an ever changing interrelated process.

[Dan Harris]

Yes, yes. In this way the three marks of existence fold back in on one another and help you understand.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes.

[Dan Harris]

You can understand this brain breaking concept of not self through the lens of impermanence.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes. They're like three lenses to the same truth.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, yeah. For me and everybody kind of to the extent that anybody ever gets to understand any of this, everybody's got their own way. But for me it kind of goes in that order of impermanence, suffering, not self. But for some people, like just have an intuitive sense of this non duality. There is no separation between you and nature. You are nature. And then they hit on the other marks of existence from there.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes, yes. Different people have different avenues. That's right, yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Let me ask you my two habitual final questions. One is, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we didn't get to?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

I think we've covered a lot of.

[Dan Harris]

Good ground even though it's all groundless. And then the final question is, if people want to learn more from you, how can they do so do you have a website that people can go to? Do you have dharma talks that are recorded that we can listen to?

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Yes, I have Dharma talks on Dharma Seed, which people may be familiar with already. I have a website. It's parianabihara.org I'm going to drop links.

[Dan Harris]

To Aya Ananda Bodhi's dharma talks on this excellent website, Dharma Seed, which collects hours and hours of dharma talks from brilliant teachers all over the world. And I will also drop a link to her website.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Thank you. And I actually do want to come back to your first question. Sure. I have touched on this in our conversation, but I think one piece that I haven't really emphasized is the importance of compassion. Compassion for oneself and for others and to really understand the struggles, you know, of being a human being. And even those people in power who may be really difficult to feel compassion for. If you look at what they're doing from a big perspective, they're deeply lost. It's a very sad situation to be so far from one's basic goodness, like wanting to help people in trouble or support poor people, supports inclusivity. And, you know, to be so far from that deserves a certain amount of compassion because we're all part of the same arising here.

[Dan Harris]

Well, it won't surprise you to hear that. I totally agree. This gentleman from a different tradition, the Jesuit tradition, Father Gregory Boyle, who I was turned on to actually by Joseph Goldstein, has been on this show before. And he once said here on the show, I don't believe in evil, but I do believe in bad behavior. The bad behavior is usually the result of trauma or mental illness. Illness or whatever.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Right, right.

[Dan Harris]

Y thank you very much. It was a total pleasure to meet you, albeit virtually, and to listen to your paragraphs.

[Aya Ananda Bodhi]

Thank you, too.

[Dan Harris]

Thanks again to Aya and devotee. Great to meet her. I strongly suspect she'll be back on the show at some point. As you heard, we talked a lot about pausing and how powerful that can be. So we've crafted a guided meditation to teach you how to pause. And it comes from our teacher of the month, Don Mauricio. It's available [e-mail] and if you sign up, you'll get our bespoke guided meditations that are now coming with all of our Monday Wednesday episodes. You'll also get live video sessions where I teach meditation and then we chop it up. You'll also get ad free versions of the show and much more. Check it out. Dan Harris, before I let you go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.