DJ Kashmir (4:10)

Bart Van Melick, welcome back to the show.

Bart Van Melick (4:13)

Thank you, dj. Thanks for having me.

DJ Kashmir (4:16)

This is such a pleasure.

Bart Van Melick (4:17)

Thank you.

DJ Kashmir (4:17)

Been looking forward to this for a couple of weeks now.

Bart Van Melick (4:21)

Oh, likewise. It's been four years.

DJ Kashmir (4:24)

It has, yeah. Yeah. So you were on the show once before, but to your point, it was a long time ago. I was listening to that episode last week. It's a great episode. We'll put a link in the show notes all about how to bring mindfulness and meditative practices into our relationships with other people. It's wonderful.

Bart Van Melick (4:41)

Right?

DJ Kashmir (4:42)

But anyway, you're back now and you're teacher of the month for the rest of January here. And so just wanted to take this opportunity to kind of reintroduce you to our audience and start with a, yeah, maybe simple but not easy question, which is how did you become a meditation teacher?

Bart Van Melick (5:01)

Well, first of all, thanks for having me. That's like asking someone about their life story. And so I'd given some thought and the first thing that actually came to mind is, is special people, special relationships, people that are coming to mind that without them, I wouldn't even be having this conversation with you. Right now. But if I have to share a little bit about my story, I have to take you back to just finishing high school in the Netherlands. I really didn't know what to do with my life. I grew up in a small town in the south of the Netherlands, and I knew I wanted to go somewhere else. I was already very interested in how the mind works. But I didn't know what to do after high school. And I remember very clearly I was at the kitchen table in my parents house. The Saturday paper was open and it had an advertisement for an exchange program for students who had just graduated from high school. And something in me said, apply, apply for it. You would go to Kenya, you'd be partnered with a Kenyan person of your own age, and you would be working with them, living with them in their house. And I got in. And that was really the first time where I really felt like everything that I was taking for granted in my life was no longer so stable. And I was blown away by the generosity of the Kenyan people. And this is why it's been the best thing in my life that I did this. I met Chantal, my wife, and we've been together for 30 years. And then afterwards, I had more of a clarity that my field of interest, what I really want to do with my life is I want to learn more about how the mind works. And I'm interested in cultures. And so I ended up studying the psychology of culture and religion. And there I studied stuff like why do people pray? What's the function of meditation? And it got me really interested more in how does the mind work. And it's also so dependent on the culture where it's in. I realized I want to know more about peace of mind. It became so clear. But I was also, as a Dutch person, very allergic to institutionalized religion. And I felt like I didn't really know where to go. I didn't feel like I would belong anywhere in some kind of group. And so another major moment in my life was that Chantal's mom, Chantal whispered in her ear this buy him a book by the Dalai Lama. And that was my very first introduction to Buddhism. It just came out, the Art of Happiness. We're talking about the late, I think late 90s. And I was reading it, which I often do, is next to a body of water, because that's where I also already found some peace in myself, next to bodies of water. And I was reading it and it was one line. Dj, it said, come and seek for yourself. That was another major moment. Hey, The Buddha saying, come and see for yourself. I don't need to believe anything. I don't have to assume anything. And that kind of brought a lot of interest in me. So I really took that book to heart, tried to practice on my own, but it didn't really stick, to be honest with you. And then Sital and I were lucky enough to do some traveling, and we ended up in Thailand, and I literally stumbled over the Buddhas there. And so we went into a temple and asked a monk, can you teach us meditation? And he said, sure, just sit over there and notice your belly rise when you breathe in and fall when you breathe out. That's it. And then come back. And so we sat there, Chantal and I, and I could still see the fans circling over me. We were sitting on this fake leather plastic thingy. It was hot. But something happened. It was the first time where I wasn't just paying attention to my body breathing, but I also felt that I can know that I'm aware. And that, to me, was like a homecoming. It's like when Thich Nhat Hanh would say, I have arrived. I'm home. And it was in that very first hit that something clicked for me. Like, this is what I want to learn more about. Find out what this is all about. And so when I did come back to the Netherlands, I was like, now I'm ready for signing up with a meditation group, even though I was by far the youngest. And it felt a little like New Agey. And I did. And then it turns out that there was retreats that I could do. And then another major thing happened, and it was a big news. In the early 2000s, Joseph Goldstein would come to the Netherlands. And so I signed up for that retreat. And without him, I would also not be talking to you right now. He co taught a retreat with another dear person and friend of mine and teacher Carol Wilson. And there was something about the way they taught it that gave me a sense of creativity in my meditation. And afterwards, I remember he said, bart, why don't you sign up for a long retreat at my center in the United States? And that coincided with the wish that Chantala and I had been having to live in New York for a while, and I retreat there, too. I started to have longer periods of time of what it's like to know that I'm aware. It felt like this great protection. And afterwards, Joseph said, I know you've been working with kids. How about if I was to connect you with an organization that teaches mindfulness practices to kids? And at the time, I couldn't do much else anyway because Chantal was the one who was able to get a visa as a freelance photographer. She works for European media. And so I started volunteering with this organization. And the first time that I actually shared meditation, I was teaching it was in front of six or eight boys in a juvenile detention center in the South Bronx. And I'd already been shadowing and had a lot of good support from, oh, you know her from Leslie Booker, who's been on the show, too.

DJ Kashmir (12:35)

Yes.

Bart Van Melick (12:36)

I was so nervous. I gave my first instructions to these boys. And when I was done, they said, bart, your meditations are lit o d. And I'm like, you know, I was still very new to English and specifically also youth culture English. I said, is that good? And they said, yeah, man, we appreciate it. It was good. And then because of that organization I was with, I ended up in high schools with kids who are in residential treatment facilities in middle schools for New York kids who are suspended. And if you really want to learn meditation, start with kids, because they're so honest in their feedback. Once I was leading, and then they would say, bart, shut up. We get it. We want some quiet. And there I kind of really got into the joy of sharing what has moved me so much. And so that's been also a major component to your question. And I'm aware that I've been speaking a lot, so I'll pause to see if you want to ask a question, but I can also go on.

DJ Kashmir (13:46)

That's a beautiful story. I do have a question, but if you want to wrap up that thought that you're on, go for it, please.

Dan Harris (13:53)

Well.

Bart Van Melick (13:57)

It was just the people. I would not have done this meditation teaching without all these communities that I started to become part of. And Joseph also started inviting me to shadow him on his retreats. And that's how I met Dan, when he was doing his very first retreat. And then out of the blue also the invitation came to train more specifically. And this was a program called Community Dharma Leader. And there I met Zebenay and a lot of other beautiful friends and another couple of people, and I'll wrap up were Gregory Kramer and Phyllis Hicks, two Inside Dialogue teachers who really opened up for me that meditation is not just being mindful and aware of what's going internally, but also to see what it's like when you are in a relational field together. That has also really informed my teaching. So I'll pause here just to let you share your question, but thank you for asking it's nice to be speaking about your own life in this way.

DJ Kashmir (15:06)

Well, it's lovely to hear. And I appreciate the way that you framed your story around the people who have had an impact on you. Right. This is very non individualistic, zoomed out, humble, and also just straight up real way of thinking about your path, which is beautiful.

Bart Van Melick (15:24)

Yeah.

DJ Kashmir (15:26)

So my question is about. It's something that came up a couple times, but the moment that's sticking in my mind is that first time that you're sitting, that you've been given instructions, and I think you said something along the lines of it was the first time that you weren't just following your breath, but that you also knew that you were aware of. And I think for some people listening, that's going to instantly compute. And for other people listening, it just might be worth unpacking a little bit. Can you say more about what that was, what the difference is between those two experiences, what you felt like you were accessing that you hadn't accessed before?

Bart Van Melick (16:04)

Yeah, Before I had that experience, I knew I could be mindful of seeing you DJ or feeling my body breathe. And that in and of itself to me was already very helpful because it kind of allows you to not move constantly into habitual automatic pilot. But then I realized that I can also know that I am mindful. So that you realize that you are mindful. It's as if you're shifting from what you're mindful of, but that you actually just notice, oh, yeah, I am attending right now. I am present right now. And that kind of feels. And I'll talk about this also in the guided meditations, it feels like a protection. It feels like as if I can hang out in this space of knowing. And I know that I am aware. And it allows me to be even more present and just being aware of what I am noticing. And so it made me feel like having more space and also like a resting place. And I also started to realize that a lot of meditation teachers and also monks, they often refer to meditation as resting. A particular one who lives here in New York, Monk Buren, he says, noble resting. And sometimes that's for me, a place where I can go to. First, I'm aware of how I feel, And then I'm just, oh, yeah, I am aware. It gives me a sense of power. It's also empowering because it feels like I have a layer of protection around me when I know that I'm mindful. I hope that resonates.

DJ Kashmir (18:23)

It does. Why? Why protection? Why does it feel like protection I.

Bart Van Melick (18:30)

Forgot to tell you, another major important person in my life. His name is Lou, and Lou is 11 and he is our son. And you have kids too, right?

DJ Kashmir (18:44)

DJ I do. Six and almost three.

Bart Van Melick (18:47)

And they are so good, I should say. Lou is so good at pushing my buttons. He's like a fierce Zen teacher in a way. And when I'm not aware, I'm so reactive, even you can hear it in my voice. I would go, lou, put away the phone or the iPad. And that's when I'm in reactive mode. But when I'm mindful and specifically when I know that I'm aware of all the stuff that's happening, I know, oh yeah, he's doing this, there might be anger in him or frustration or craving. And it's not just that I'm aware of that, but I'm also like, okay, I'm aware, I know I'm aware. And so what it does is it gives me a little more space often to be way more creative to respond to him, actually perhaps making a joke about staying longer on the iPad or whatever. And so when I catch myself in these few moments, I'm realizing it's not just for the benefit of my own ease, but I'm also realizing that I'm keeping way more of a harmony and a relationship with him. And actually he's more willing then to accept my no, for example, because it's not coming from that whiny voice no more, but it's like a clear no, which is, I think, also an important part of our practice to sometimes learn how to say no to ourselves, to this endless thought loops. And so that's one way, very concrete way, how it protects me.

DJ Kashmir (20:33)

That absolutely resonates with the last 24 hours of my life. Yesterday I was not in that aware mode. And throughout the day, just multiple moments of unskillfulness and conflict kept popping up. And one of my kids would, whatever, refuse to put their shoes on, and I'd snap at them and just make it worse, trying to rush through and just get out the door and get to the next thing. There were like at least half a dozen of these moments sprinkled throughout the day, and they all felt bad. And. And last night I was having trouble falling asleep in part because I was reflecting on how reactive I'd been. And I kind of woke up this morning with a renewed intention to not be that version of myself. And today I had all the same tasks before me in the morning of waking the kids up, which they don't like, getting them dressed for school, which they don't like, brushing their teeth, which they don't like, getting them out the door on time, which they don't like. Right. Is always the start of the day. But there was some level of, like, this is what's happening right now, and I have a choice about how I engage with it. And we hit all of those same pivot moments where I had a chance and would have felt justified in snapping or yelling or just being short or rushing them or pushing or whatever. And I just. I didn't take the bait. And those little moments, not only was I doing less damage, but it actually all went faster. You know, like, it actually all went easier because, like, when I don't take the bait, the moment just passes. And so what you're saying about orienting from this place of awareness and that being a protection, right, for you and for the people around you just feels very alive for me, like, literally to today.

Bart Van Melick (22:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I so hear you. I just recently did a meditation retreat for myself. And actually, every period of practice at the end, I kind of have a sense of what's my aspiration for the next few hours or the rest, sometimes for the. When I've been away for a longer period of time for the next time, for the next. And it's always being as kind and present as possible for those close to me. Because there, it's always. That's what's coming up in my practice. A sense of, to be honest, sometimes guilt or regret of how I acted out again. You know, what I really like about relational meditation that I've learned through inside dialogue is that it's a perfect time to reflect. So what we're doing right now, to me, is practice. We're keeping it real. We're talking about real stuff, which to me means Dharma. And just hearing you say that something softens in me. But it also, at the same time, empowers me to keep connecting with that aspiration. Because the key for me, especially when I'm with other people is to remember awareness. That's really the work. Because when as soon as we remember, it's already here and taking some time to connect with it again and feel that maybe sense of protection that I talked about, how I feel makes a huge difference. But also to keep learning and keep being honest about when we weren't. And I find that just as helpful as sometimes kicking back and going, bart, well done. You didn't take the bait and it went all smoothly.

DJ Kashmir (24:33)

Yeah, a few things came up for me just listening to you just now. One is just to underline for the listener, Bart, when you're referencing insight, dialogue or relational dharma, that this is the topic of the conversation you had with Dan a few years ago. And we'll put a link in the show notes. It's a really rich, really practical conversation. Another thing that came up just when you were talking about how often what's coming up for you in practice is actually sort of regret or guilt about how you interacted with a loved one. That really resonates for me, too. And I feel like one of the ways I've been lucky with the people in my life is I've had multiple teachers really be quite firm and direct with me about the stakes of my practice as they relate to the people in my life. I think sometimes in Western, secular, modern dharma, it can all feel soft and gentle. And it's about you and it's about being calm. And there are certainly elements of that in the practice. But I really have had. I have multiple faces of teachers coming to mind right now as I'm talking of people who have really put a very fine point on what it means for my wife, what it means for my kids, what it means for my colleagues when I'm practicing, when I'm committing, versus when I'm not. And that's. That's been a lot to take on. But it's. I just. I'm grateful for that kind of directness.

Bart Van Melick (26:03)

Yeah, I hear you. And I think a major point in practice is also to learn how to say no without coming from a place of aversion. And it's like also being kind but firm when you say no to a child who is about either to hurt itself or you've set a boundary, and of course they're going to test it. But also when you're doing your own meditation in a formal way and you see your mind going back into that same thought loop of what if thoughts that you've seen quite a few times. Sometimes I find it helpful then to say with that same voice as I would say no to Lou, not whiny, but present, no, thank you. And so I think that sometimes in meditation, it can feel like it's only about allowing and receiving. It's an important component. Yes. But it's also about skillfully saying no sometimes. And not just no when you're in it, but also when you're about to. You probably caught a moment when you were about to say something again while the kids were not getting ready to go to school. And that's the power of repetitive mindful observation is you go, oh, there it is again. But you are present, you have that protection. And you might not say it and sometimes you'll still say it. That's what happens to me most of the times. And then later on I go, ah, but even that is learning. Even that is learning. So yeah, it's both saying yes to stuff, but it's also about saying no.

DJ Kashmir (27:47)

I want to see if I can squeeze in two more questions on awareness, and then we'll wrap up by having you share a bit about these meditations you're making for us. Okay, so the first of the two awareness questions. Just thinking back to this word you've been using throughout this word, protection, and one of the other ways that I feel like that shown up for me. But I'm curious how this lance for you is. I find that when I'm in the midst of a really difficult intrusive thought or repetitive thought or strong emotion in those times where, to your point, where I do remember awareness and pull out a practice to try to let that experience or let that phenomenon, to use a Steven Levine phrase, float in something larger in those moments where it feels like I'm not just the anger or I'm not just the frustration, or I'm not just the regret, but I'm the awareness that is aware of the regret. I'm the awareness that's holding the anger. It also feels protective because it's. Because the awareness is just. It's imperturbable. And in some ways it feels like it has nothing to do with me. It's like an opportunity to leave the entire psychodrama behind and just give it all a hug. And that feels protective too.

Bart Van Melick (29:14)

Yeah.

DJ Kashmir (29:15)

Does that track for you?

Bart Van Melick (29:17)

It does. The way it kind of lands in my mind is that which knows there's anger or frustration is not angry or frustrated. That was a huge insight for me that even the part of me that knows there's breathing happening isn't the breath. The knowing is not what it knows. It's really quite special. I find it so worth of my limited time on this blue planet to keep remembering that, because that's really where it's all about. Remember that you can be aware and knowing that what awareness knows it isn't that. Don't ask me what it is, dj. I know it's kind of. I know it's receptive and spacious. I do feel like it's a protection. It's an availability, but it's also. It's quite special.

DJ Kashmir (30:37)

Well, that perfectly tees up my Other question about awareness. And I'm a little bit. I feel some self consciousness around asking it because it could open up an hour of dialogue and we probably have two or three minutes. But the good news is that these meditations you're providing throughout January, many of them touch quite practically and quite specifically into exactly this thing that you're pointing to. Could you just say just a little bit about what you find practically works for people to help them sort of unlock this thing?

Bart Van Melick (31:08)

Yeah. Maybe right now, as you're listening, you might already notice that, oh, it's almost over, maybe feel a sense of wanting to click away the word. That really sums it up. What DJ and I have been reflecting on is pause. If you just pause right now, it's the pause that remembers that it's always now. It's always now. And in it we can connect with being aware. We can be aware of how this is about to end, but we are aware of our mind planning already. What if you take a moment just now and to know that you are mindful. And all it takes is to pause and then remembering. And then what I do sometimes when I'm in this space is putting myself into a situation I'll be in pretty soon, like maybe having the kids back home from school. What if I connect from this place again? What if I connect with a family member knowing that I can pause and connect with this place and just see what might be possible from that place? And that's how I then start to feel that sense of. Of protection that we've been talking about. Yeah. Thank you.

DJ Kashmir (33:06)

Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah. Beautiful. Truly, Last question now, and we've already alluded to it, but you've got these half dozen meditations coming our way. I think listeners by this time in the episode probably have some sense of the flavor of what those will be, but is there just anything else you'd want to say or just. Just sort of an elevator pitch for what'll be in our ears and on our cushions for these next few weeks?

Bart Van Melick (33:31)

Shall I tell you my favorite?

DJ Kashmir (33:32)

Please. Perfect.

Bart Van Melick (33:35)

My favorite. And it's become a line in my own practice almost every day. And I got it from this modern day monk, Venerable Analio, who did a PhD on the Buddhist teachings on mindfulness. And I went to the conclusion to see what he wrote there. And he said, I can sum it up in four words for you. Keep calmly knowing change. So when you pause and become aware, What really brings a lot of ease and ultimately harmony with this powerful truth of impermanence is to often connect with the flow of change, sounds coming and going, the breath, breathing, the endless mental activity in our mind. What if you just had to keep calmly notice change? And that will be one of the meditations that I'll offer. But this one has really transformed me in so many ways because then you start to see that holding on even to this wonderful conversation I'm having with you is impossible. It will end. Your out breath right now has ended. So yeah, that's my. I just wanted to share my favorite. The rest is fine too.

DJ Kashmir (35:14)

Hey, it's been such a pleasure Bart. Thanks.

Bart Van Melick (35:16)

Likewise. Thank you dj. Thanks for having me.

DJ Kashmir (35:18)

Course.

Dan Harris (35:21)

Thank you to dj. Thank you to Bart. Don't forget to check out our new app 10% with Dan Harris. You can get it over@danharris.com. there's a free 30 day trial if you want to try before you buy. Finally, thank you very very much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our Managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our Executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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