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10% Happier with Dan Harris
Can a Psychic Medium Improve Your Life? Wrestling With the Balance Between Open-Mindedness and Skepticism
00:54:23
Why are many of Dan’s favorite meditation teachers consulting a clairvoyant? A special collaboration with . Related Episodes: Additional Resources: Psychic medium Join Dan’s online community Follow Dan on social: , ...
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- [00:00]
Dan Harris
Foreign. It's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, everybody. Today we are diving into a question that I have puzzled over for many, many years. How do you balance openness and skepticism? In my book, I used a quote from one of my favorite punk bands, the Meat Puppets. Here's the quote. Open your mind in pours the trash. That really sums up the dilemma. As soon as you get interested in something like meditation, or, for lack of a better word, spirituality, you have to start wading through oceans of bullshit before you can find the good stuff. How do you know how to separate wheat from chaff? So we're going to approach this question today, and the way we're going to approach it is a little bit different than how we usually do it. Actually, it's very different. In other words, this is an unusual and, dare I say, special episode. We're not going to do a straight one on one interview, which is what we normally do. Instead, we're going to deliver a highly produced narrative. Some context here. For years, I've been hearing many of my meditation teachers, people I respect immensely, discuss the fact that they regularly consult a psychic medium. Said psychic medium's name is Laura Lynn Jackson. As you can imagine, this news created a lot of cognitive dissonance for me. How can these brilliant people who've helped me so much in my life sign up for something that seemed so clearly to me at least, to be questionable at best? So last year, I decided to reach out to Laura Lynn Jackson for an interview right here on the show. Now, you may be thinking, I don't remember that episode. That's because we never aired it. I walked away from that conversation even more curious than when I went in. So I went back to Laura Lynn Jackson and I asked her if she would give me a reading, which she did and which I also recorded. And after that reading, honestly, I still didn't know what to think or what to do with all the audio tape we had gathered. I just didn't know how to make it into, like, an episode of this show. So I reached out to some friends. PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamanemi have an excellent podcast of their own. It's called Search Engine. Every week, take on a single question, and they chase it down whatever rabbit hole is required to get an answer. It's hilarious and super interesting. Again, it's called Search Engine. And not only are PJ and Shruthi great at their job, but they're also great friends of mine. I've known Shruthi for 20 years. I've only known PJ for a couple of years but I already adore the dude. So anyway, I asked them if they wanted to team up and tell the story together and they said yes and that is what we are going to play you today. I love how this story came out. I loved working on it with my friends and if you like it, you should go check out the rest of Search Engine's stuff. I'll put a link to their show in the show notes. Real quick, before we dive in, I just want to mention some of the cool stuff happening over on danharris.com we loved having Kara Lai as our Teacher of the Month during the Get Fit Sanely episodes. In June, Cara created bespoke companion meditations for each of our Monday Wednesday episodes and it was such a success that we're going to do it again in July and August. So in July our meditations will be brought to you by the great Don Mauricio. Head on over to danharris.com to access all the past and future meditations. Okay, enough out of me. I'm going to turn this show over now to PJVote and Search Engine. Enjoy.
- [03:39]
PJ Vogt
Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big, no question too small. This week Dan Harris, author of the best selling memoir about meditation and Buddhism called 10% happier, has a question, a very intriguing one involving a psychic that's after these ads.
- [03:56]
Dan Harris
A couple months ago my family and I went to Nosara, which is a cool little town on the Pacific coast of Costa Rica, and really loved the place, although we didn't get to spend enough time there. So we're going to go back with some friends of ours, strausses, and we love this family. They've got a kid who's exactly our son's age, so the parents have a great time hanging out and the kids get along really well. And so we are going to get an Airbnb. There are lots of great Airbnb offerings in Nosara and as you've heard me say before, for many of the most important travel plans, especially if we're going to stay with another family, I really do prefer an Airbnb because you get to spend more time together. You've got common spaces where you can cook meals together. You're not siloed off into separate rooms. Of course you do have privacy, but there's plenty of space for unscripted, unplanned hangout sessions. You don't have to be texting each other all the time to Figure out when and how and where you're going to hang out. You just bump into each other. It's just a great way to travel and to get to know your friends and to spend time with your friends and deepen those relationships. And as you may know, one of the great things about Airbnb is that you can find great places to stay on there, but you can also be a provider of a great place to stay. You can put your home on Airbnb and make a little extra dough while you're traveling. You get paid to take a vacation, which seems like a smart thing to do. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host you need a website. I think you need a website. If you do, and I think you do, you should check out Squarespace. It's the all in one website platform that is designed to help you stand out in a very crowded, infinitely crowded online environment. This is particularly important if you're starting a business or even if you're scaling your business. You need a good website and Squarespace can help you do all the stuff you need to do, like claim your domain, showcase your offerings, grow your brand, get paid, everything. And it's all in one place. They've got all the stuff for cutting edge design, which is a must. One of the things they have that I am particularly focused on as a business owner myself is analytics. You can't run a business, I have found, without understanding what the numbers are. How is your content performing? How many visits are you getting to your site? Squarespace has intuitive built in analytics tools. You can review your website traffic, learn where to focus your engagement, track revenue from bookings, invoices or product sales. And again, it's all in one place. Check out squarespace.com 10happier. That's 10happier for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code 10Happier10Happier to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [07:14]
PJ Vogt
Hello?
- [07:16]
Dan Harris
Hey, Dan.
- [07:18]
PJ Vogt
How's it going?
- [07:18]
Dan Harris
Good, how are you?
- [07:20]
PJ Vogt
I just ate an enormous bagel. You know, like the ones where you gotta take a nap.
- [07:26]
Dan Harris
I'm glad you're eating. It sounds like you had a stomach bug over the weekend.
- [07:30]
PJ Vogt
I was very. I was God. I don't even wanna fill in the picture for you. I've never been that ill. I've just never been that ill in my life. Norovirus. Don't get it.
- [07:42]
Dan Harris
I've had it. Oh, I've had food poisoning on pretty much every continent. My father has a great expression about this. When you have a stomach flu like that, he says, you switch between thinking you're going to die and fearing you won't.
- [07:57]
PJ Vogt
That's exactly the reality. That was exactly it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It made me realize that when I'm old, I'm not going to be a fighter, like at all. I'm going to like, cough twice and be like, take me off life support. I'm like, you're not a life support. Dan Harris, to the rest of the world, is not primarily known for all the food poisoning he's had. He's known these days as an author and host of a popular podcast called 10% happier. That's about meditation and mindfulness and a lot of other things. Recently, Dan found himself investigating this question, and I asked him if we could ride along on his journey to answer it. Can you just tell me, like, the story of how you arrived at this question?
- [08:45]
Dan Harris
Okay, so the backstory is I have spent the last 15 years really taking a deep dive into the world of Buddhism or the Dharma, which was not, you know, in my life plan. I started my career in local news and then I became a network news anchor and I spent, you know, 20 years at ABC News. But in the late aughts, I started to get interested in Buddhism and made friends with all of these teachers who were my parents age, so I'm a Gen Xer and. And these guys were all boomers. And I don't think, coincidentally they're mostly Jewish, so they have like chewy last names like Salzburg and Epstein and Goldstein and Cornfield. And I became really close with a lot of these folks, and they really were kind of my guides as I got increasingly interested in Buddhism.
- [09:45]
PJ Vogt
These names Dan mentioned, they're big American meditation teachers often credited with popularizing Buddhism in this country. Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Mark Epstein. For Dan, they're people who showed him a way into Buddhism that didn't require him to surrender to a faith.
- [10:00]
Dan Harris
What I liked about Buddhism, coming from a skeptical secular background, my parents were both atheist scientists. What I liked about Buddhism is that it actually wasn't a religion. I mean, it could be practiced as a religion for sure. And that's beautiful and fine, but you can practice it as a secular person. I mean, the Buddha himself said, don't take anything I say on face value. Come check it out for yourself. So that was really attractive to me. And the basics of Buddhist philosophy and practice, like meditation and ethical practices, all really made sense and have come to be validated by modern Science, Buddhist practices.
- [10:36]
PJ Vogt
Validated by modern science. This is what makes Dan so unusual. Most of us, when we encounter a new belief system, we either reject it or we explore it. And if we keep exploring it, it usually changes us. Dan, though, is a skeptic. He's remained somewhat of a skeptic despite nearly two decades of studying Buddhism. So he's a skeptic who goes on silent meditation retreats, a skeptic who himself leads guided meditations, a skeptic who publishes podcasts about Buddhism three times a week. While Dan has certainly become more flexible over the years, become less zealous, he still kept his mind. And people don't usually say this as a compliment, but I mean it as one at least half closed. Anything he encounters in Buddhism that science can't prove or prove the benefits of, he just sets aside.
- [11:26]
Dan Harris
I felt comfortable in this world, largely, and a lot of these older Buddhist folks believed in stuff that and still believe in stuff that I found very hard to swallow.
- [11:43]
PJ Vogt
Like what?
- [11:46]
Dan Harris
Well, I'll start with the easier stuff. And this isn't even going to sound easy for some people, but the notion of enlightenment, that there is an experience we can have of nirvana, they call it nibbana, which is the way it's pronounced in the language of Pali. And so you can have these zaps of nirvana or nibbana, and it can upgrade the software of your mind permanently, and that's enlightenment. But they also believe, and this stuff is in the Buddhist texts, they also believe in rebirth in different realms of existence. They believe that certain types of. Of meditative adepts get superpowers, like the ability to read other people's minds or duplicate their body or walk through walls.
- [12:38]
PJ Vogt
In America, we usually try to respect other people's religious beliefs, and Dan could respect these ideas that his teachers had, even if he didn't believe all of them. After all, they were rooted in Buddhism. But then Dan began to learn that some of his most respected teachers also held these other beliefs, beliefs that didn't come from Buddhism, beliefs that to him felt significantly wackier. The kinds of ideas someone trying to sell you crystals at a head shop in a strip mall might try to pitch you on.
- [13:08]
Dan Harris
I have a memory, and hopefully he won't mind me retelling this story, but I have a memory of walking down the street with Dr. Mark Epstein, who just, by the way, is a eminent psychiatrist who practices in the New York area and has written a series of books about the overlap between modern psychology and Buddhism. And he was really my first introduction to Buddhism. I read one of his books, called him up, and essentially asked if he would be my friend. And we started having lunch and dinner together on the regular, and he would just teach me stuff. And I remember walking down the street with him one time, and I was really pressing him on some of the esoteric claims of Buddhism. And then he said something like, he was talking about tarot or astrology or something like that. And I was like, you really believe in that? And he said, yeah, I believe in everything. I believe in everything. And this is a guy who went to Harvard Medical School.
- [14:08]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [14:09]
Dan Harris
And then I start to think, is this an affinity scam? You know, like, you know, where people who seem normal to you start selling you, you know, like on a multilevel marketing thing, you know, like, what is going on here? So I kind of lived with this. I kind of put this in a box off to the side while I continued my meditation practice. And it was in that context that he mentioned that he talked to a psychic medium whose name is Laura Lynn Jackson. Then over the years, I would hear other teachers in this cohort say that they, too had had readings and. Yeah, and this woman could apparently talk to the dead, like, talk to my teacher's dead relatives. So she was a psychic, which means she could talk to you about your future. And a medium that means she can talk to the dead. To be clear, as far as I know, Laurelin Jackson is not a Buddhist and had nothing to do with Buddhism. She's an ex high school English teacher from Long island who became a professional psychic medium. So I. I started researching her, and her story is pretty easy to find because she's done a lot of public interviews. She appears somewhat regularly on the. On the podcast and daytime TV circuit. It's always tough when a loved one dies.
- [15:28]
PJ Vogt
And for some people, psychic mediums help provide closure.
- [15:31]
Dan Harris
But you don't have to be psychic to see the signs. At least that's according to a new book.
- [15:35]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Let's welcome Laura Lynn Jackson.
- [15:37]
Dan Harris
She is the author of Signs, the Secret Language of the Universe.
- [15:41]
Mark Epstein
Welcome.
- [15:41]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Thank you so much for having me here.
- [15:43]
Dan Harris
Well, thank you for being here. I'll tell you her bio as I understand it from. From what she said publicly. Laura Lynn Jackson grew up on Long island, and she's told the story many times about how she first realized she had some unusual abilities. You've been doing this talking to the other side for years now.
- [16:01]
Laura Lynn Jackson
How did this all start for you? You know, it started for me as a child. I would see people colors. I would feel what they were feeling. And When I was 11, I knew my grandfather was going to die. Right before he died and right after he crossed, I had this dream where he visited me and I had this beautiful communication. And ever since then I've just, you know, understood that people who cross are really still with us and they're very accessible to us to connect with.
- [16:29]
Dan Harris
She says her mom told her that these powers run in the family and she continued to struggle with it. To not know what exactly these powers were, whether they were real, what to do about them. In her wayward youth, she used to do psychic readings as a trick at a bar.
- [16:48]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Hey, look what I can do out at a bar. I know all about you and I know that your dad's on the other side and I know that you have a seven year old brother and this sort of thing. But it took me a while to honor it.
- [16:58]
Dan Harris
But eventually she kind of settled in, she says, into her role as a psychic.
- [17:03]
PJ Vogt
Oh yeah.
- [17:04]
Dan Harris
And decided to use it to help other people.
- [17:07]
Laura Lynn Jackson
I'm a mom, I am a wife, and I happen to be a psychic medium. And it took me many, many decades to come to terms with that and accept that I don't consider myself woo woo. I was raised by two teachers and I was raised to be a critical thinker in the world and a critical thinker, questions, always questions and explorers.
- [17:32]
Dan Harris
I found myself struggling a little bit with this story. I mean, at a minimum, I think of psychic powers as, you know, definitionally, woo woo. And so knowing all that, I was like, all right, this is the final straw. I have to find out why do my teachers believe this and is there any evidence for it and what to.
- [17:52]
PJ Vogt
Make sure I understand what you're describing. It's like you like a very sort of like, I believe things that there are empirical evidence for. I'm a skeptic. But you found a practice that is tied but loosely to spiritual beliefs or sort of optionally to spiritual beliefs. And you found that practice so useful and such a way to gain more thoughtfulness and wisdom and ways of being in the world. And so for most of your path into this, you've just been like, okay, there's an optional sidecar of bonus beliefs here that I don't think are for me. I don't have to judge them. They can stay in the box. What is it about a psychic that you're like, okay, I kind of need to poke the box a little bit here.
- [18:34]
Dan Harris
Well, I mean, it struck me as obvious bullshit, like there's no way to disprove that There are multiple realms of existence. You know, in the Buddhist cosmology, there's a hell realm, like a God realm, this human realm, the animal realm. I can't. That. That's. That's an interesting metaphysical claim, but it doesn't seem like I have the resources in this realm to falsify it. Whereas the psychic thing, I hadn't thought deeply about it, but it just seemed obviously not true.
- [19:12]
PJ Vogt
So Dan approached Search Engine to help him understand what was going on here. His question, why were so many of his respected teachers seeing this psychic medium? I wanted to follow along because, one, I just thought the situation was very funny. But two, for me personally, I've just spent more time in the past few years around new Agey people and sometimes they give me the same feeling I get around my very conservative family members members where there's things they say that give me almost an allergic reaction, trigger me. And I wondered in this case if I could soften that. I wondered if I even wanted to. This is not a story designed to change your mind about psychics. Proving or disproving the supernatural is a trap. Search Engine does not fall for traps. Instead, it's a story about what we do with other people's beliefs, how we decide, how open to be to the ideas that make our minds want to snap closed. That is our big quest this week. And as part of it, after a short break, Dan Harris will visit a psychic medium.
- [20:24]
Dan Harris
I always love it when a company that my family and I are already supporting decides to become a supporter of this show. We have been owners of a Defender for many, many years. I think four or five. It's the car my wife drives. It makes me very comfortable knowing that she and our son are moving around in a sturdy, reliable vehicle like the Defender. And it looks really, really cool. It's just a great looking car. It really suits my wife better than it does me, given that she's just cooler than I am. And one of the things that the folks who make the Defender want you to know is that it's really about the spirit of adventure and healthy risk taking. There's a meetup of people who are in this category. It's called Destination Defender. It's an incredible weekend festival in Port Jervis, New York, and it was created for people who embrace the impossible and includes a lot of outdoor activities, live music, chef tastings, and more. It sounds really fun. Join the adventure at Destination Defender, May 16th through 18th. To learn more, please visit DestinationDefenderUSA. This is an ad by BetterHelp. These days I am, I'm really leaning on my shrinks. I've got a psychiatrist who helps me and then an exposure therapist. Shout out to Paul. Paul and I have been taking flights together as I try to turn the volume down significantly on my claustrophobia related panic disorder. Paul has been a game changer for me, as has my psychiatrist who oversees or quarterbacks the whole situation. Long way of saying therapy can be really helpful. And for me, you know, this getting back on a plane thing is deeply tied to my livelihood because I need to fly in order to give speeches. That's one of the things I do. So I really need my therapist for this. I should say on this tip, workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. To battle stress, most of us can't simply wave bye bye to work. But we can start small and focus on wellness. There are lots of things you can do, you know, taking more breaks during the day, starting a meditation habit, getting in little bursts of exercise. But having a therapist is, in my experience, incredibly helpful. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of experience. Unwind from work. With BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com happier that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com happier.
- [23:41]
PJ Vogt
Welcome back to the show. Last spring, Dan Harris found himself reaching out to a psychic medium. He was asking himself what it meant that the people he followed were in some sense following her. And he was curious how far he could push his own mind. So he sent her an interview request and they got together on Zoom.
- [24:01]
Dan Harris
Before we dive in, any questions or concerns? For me?
- [24:04]
Laura Lynn Jackson
No, I'm just very excited to be in conversation with you. I just read your book, 10 and a half percent. 10% happier. I just added an extra half 10% happier. And I loved it. It's fantastic. We have a lot of people in common, Mark and Sharon, and I love it.
- [24:17]
Dan Harris
Yeah, yeah. That's how I came up with the idea of inviting you on, because I've heard about you from these other folks.
- [24:22]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Aw, thank you.
- [24:23]
Dan Harris
I start with some basic questions, like, for example, what is the difference between a psychic and a medium?
- [24:29]
Laura Lynn Jackson
That's a great question. So a psychic is somebody who tunes into. Into, you can call it someone's aura. And the concept there is that there's an energy field around every single person that emanates about two or three feet away from each person's body. And that within that field, we can energetically tap into it with our thoughts and connect with it and read a person's past, present, future. We can see who they're connected to in the here and now. We get all sorts of information from that. We can read information about their physical health, all sorts of things like that. So a psychic is somebody who would do that. A medium takes it a step farther. And we have a saying among all of us where it's, every medium is psychic, but not every psychic is a medium. And what I mean by that is, I feel that mediumship.
- [25:19]
Dan Harris
And so I interviewed her for, I don't know, 90 minutes, maybe more. She doesn't have the same vibe that these super advanced meditation teachers do. She's much chattier. And, like, you can ask her a question, she'll maybe take a half hour to answer it. I'm not kidding.
- [25:36]
PJ Vogt
I see.
- [25:36]
Dan Harris
Like, she just is so excited about what she's talking about that she'll go for a half hour.
- [25:42]
Laura Lynn Jackson
You know, there is something so much grander and more beautiful and magnificent going on behind the scenes in this sort of unseen energy realm of connection that we can't even begin to understand. But we can learn to trust in and we can learn to call upon.
- [25:57]
Dan Harris
Okay, you said about 75 things that I need to follow up on those in those paragraphs that you just uttered there. But let me just stay at the level of representing the skeptics in the audience. I'm imagining there are a couple of alarm bells going off for people not having to do with you specifically, but with this topic, one is terms like, you know, unseen energy. It just reminds me of, like, poltergeist or, you know, ooh, that's scary. Ooh, right. So there's that. But even beyond that, it's like the stuff of movies. We've all seen psychics in movies. We've all seen or heard stories about charlatans in this field. Oh, sure. It's just that lexicon itself can be hard to swallow for somebody who, you know, is reasonably new to this or only has interacted with it through pop culture. So for anybody who's listening to this and, you know, considering whether to stop listening, what can you say to like, keep us in the game here, keep us open?
- [26:59]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Well, I think this is so important that you're bringing this up because when I talk about unseen energy, I don't mean this idea of like this concept of woo woo stuff that's out there. I mean that I've researched and dived into, you know, quantum theory, trying to understand this. I'm always on a search for answers myself. It's one of the reasons I asked.
- [27:16]
Dan Harris
Her a bunch of skeptical questions and she answered them. She didn't convince me per se, but I also didn't walk away thinking it's absolutely, demonstrably untrue. But I didn't get the feeling that she was, you know, and I've interviewed a lot of con men and cult leaders and fraudsters in my many years of being a journalist. I didn't get that vibe from her. I got the sense that whatever she's doing, she sincerely believes she's doing it.
- [27:45]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [27:46]
Dan Harris
Laura Lynn Jackson, thank you very much for coming on.
- [27:49]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Thank you so much for being in conversation with me.
- [27:52]
Dan Harris
And I was like, what do I do with this tape? You know, I. I felt incomplete, but I just didn't know what to think and I didn't know how my audience would feel about it. And so then I called her back and said, will you give me a reading? Apparently she's able to do these readings remotely over the phone. And she said, yes.
- [28:13]
PJ Vogt
Can you hear me all right?
- [28:14]
Dan Harris
I hear you loudly and clearly.
- [28:16]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Fabulous. Well, I feel really honored to read for you. And I always feel that readings are divinely orchestrated, you know, so I always.
- [28:23]
Dan Harris
I couldn't see her. We were audio only. We weren't in the same room. I've actually never been in the same room with her. And she warned me in advance that when we do this, you know, she goes into a state where she kind of loses track of time. And first she was reading my aura.
- [28:39]
Laura Lynn Jackson
New Age people call it an aura. Scientists call it a biofield. It's a very real thing. You know, we have this energy field around us. And within that, when I read for people, is all sorts of information. Information about your past, your present, your future, people you're tied to in the here and now. And the very first thing I'm going to be shown is something that I have come to call a core aura for the person I'm reading for. So for you and all it means is I'm basically shown the blueprint for your soul mission this lifetime. And the way that will appear to me is in a circle or like a globe. Sometimes it's like a 3D shape that comes and.
- [29:13]
Dan Harris
Which, you know, sounds like something that people say to you. On the street corner in Sedona, Arizona, she was talking about the various colors that are there in my aura and what they mean.
- [29:24]
Laura Lynn Jackson
All right, let's talk a little bit about the orange, the green, and then the other colors. Orange is interesting to me, and I. Not that I didn't expect. See it in your core, but it was just like, oh, wow, this is here, because here's what it means. When I see orange in somebody's core aura, it means the person that I am talking to is marked as an artist for me in some capacity. I feel like you've always been very connected to art. Like, were you very into music when you were younger? Especially like teenage years?
- [29:52]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [29:53]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Did you play, like two instruments?
- [29:55]
Dan Harris
One.
- [29:56]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Okay, then did you play an instrument? End thing?
- [30:00]
Dan Harris
Not very well, but I did. I did play one instrument.
- [30:03]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Okay. It has to be two because I'm seeing two. It's like two different streams. But this one, I feel like I'm going crazy.
- [30:08]
Dan Harris
So she's reading my aura and she says that I'm into music. And she says that I play two instruments, which is 50% correct. I play the drums poorly. But she kind of insisted that I play two, which is not true unless you count, like the triangle.
- [30:27]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [30:27]
Dan Harris
And then so she goes from the aura to. Then she has this whole thing about how we all have a team of light, Each one and every one of.
- [30:34]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Us has a team of light on the other side. That's three parts, right? God energy, which I see as this force of love that is just inherent and part of all of us and guides us to become like more loving, kind, forgiving, guides us into our highest path and connects us. All right. And then we also have. In this part might sound a little woo woo, but I've come to understand it what I'll refer to as spirit guides. Right. Throughout time in history, some religions have referred to that kind of conscious beings as, you know, guardian angels. I just call them spirit guides. And the third part of the team of light, of course, is anybody who loved who's crossed for the other side, pets included, I like to point out as well. And they.
- [31:11]
Dan Harris
And then my team of light showed up and apparently they. They were talking about how I had gone through something very hard in the last Couple of years.
- [31:20]
Laura Lynn Jackson
There had to be, like, maybe some relationships that fell away. I feel like there is great disappointment about one person in particular. Does this make any sense to you?
- [31:29]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [31:29]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Okay. I want to commend you. This is not for me. This is from your guides because the main task was to come away from that without bitterness, without negativity. And yeah, we're going to feel it at times, but that's not going to be the takeaway. And I really do feel you're getting a standing ovation for acing that.
- [31:47]
Dan Harris
They were saying at first you were thrashing about and not handling it very well, but ultimately you handled it well and we applaud you for that. And to me, that seems pretty obviously a reference to my separation from the meditation app that I co founded and went through a very painful separation from and was a three year long thing. And there were many times where it brought out my absolute worst. But toward the end, I was able to kind of deal with it reasonably well. And so all of that was really reassuring. And it felt good that, like, my grandparents might have approved of my comportment during this. And I'm aware that she could have. I mean, I've talked about all of this stuff publicly.
- [32:25]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Dan Harris
So she could have just known this and was giving me a pep talk.
- [32:31]
PJ Vogt
Yeah. What. What happened next?
- [32:34]
Dan Harris
Okay, so there's the medium part where she's talking to your team of light.
- [32:40]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [32:41]
Dan Harris
And then there's the psychic part where she's telling you what might happen in the future.
- [32:47]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Now, do you have three cats now, but are talking about a fourth?
- [32:51]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [32:52]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Okay. Do you don't have the fourth yet, do you? No, it's coming. Like it's. I already see it as if it's there, even though it's not. But, like, this fourth one is meant to come.
- [33:02]
Dan Harris
At the time that I was doing the reading, we had three cats and she predicted we would get a fourth. And I did not mention that to Bianca, who several weeks later came home with a fourth cat. So there's that.
- [33:17]
PJ Vogt
I find that impressive. I find that challenging.
- [33:19]
Dan Harris
The fact that we have four fucking cats. Is that what you find? Because you're right. It's a lot of kitty litters. It's a lot of cats.
- [33:30]
PJ Vogt
What else?
- [33:31]
Laura Lynn Jackson
I also feel like, are you gonna get your own show or something?
- [33:34]
Dan Harris
Is that on the table somewhere beyond this show? You mean beyond this podcast, like a TV show?
- [33:42]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Yeah, yeah. Or somebody picks it up in a new way. Like, I see my sign for, like, media coming.
- [33:48]
Dan Harris
I mean, that would be great. I'm actually in the works of pitching a TV show that would have me kind of traveling around the world investigating how to get happier.
- [33:59]
Laura Lynn Jackson
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It's like, it's a show, but it's you teaching this and helping people find their own light. And it's going to be a little frustrating because it's, it's an 11 month journey to having it come about. I'm going to tell you, you have to believe in this and you have to trust in this because you're in the midst of it right now.
- [34:15]
Dan Harris
She was like, that show is going to get made and it's going to be a huge deal. And now I want to believe that. Yeah, obviously, like, I don't know if that's true, but I, I really liked hearing it and it felt to me like a very useful pep talk. There was nothing in there that if I did believe it would have been harmful, I don't think. And most importantly, the experience was positive because I have gone through a hard couple of years. It's been really hard, the hardest years of my life, both because of what's happened professionally and also, as you know, my wife's had some health problems. So the idea that we could both as a couple be entering this period of thriving personally and professionally is really exciting. Maybe wrong, but it motivates me to effectuate it. And so to me, I don't see any harm in any of that.
- [35:10]
PJ Vogt
And so you're having the experience still of like part of you spinning disbelief, but like the greater part of your skeptical intellect is still online. And so it's like, it's just sort of psychologically strange. As somebody who has like had psychic readings, as a non believer before, I just very much understand the feeling, feeling that that conversation gives you, which is like, I don't want to get in the pool, but I'm a little bit in the pool and it is warm, but I don't even believe in pools.
- [35:39]
Dan Harris
So I didn't know you had actually done this. And so I'll say, I'll run this by you. And I think it builds on what you just said. What surprised me the most about myself was how much I wanted to believe it.
- [35:50]
PJ Vogt
Why do you think that is?
- [35:53]
Dan Harris
It just sounds nice. Her whole philosophy is that being alive on earth is like a school, a training ground, and then we ultimately cross back over to whatever it is on the other side and that when we get there, you know, we'll be reunited with our ancestors and that all just, I mean there's a reason why so many people at 11 o' clock on Sunday mornings go to church. It's a very comforting story, but Dan.
- [36:21]
PJ Vogt
Is somebody who tries not to believe in stories just because they're comfortable. He doesn't usually get his aura read. He's not religious, he does meditate, and he's Buddhist enough that I've heard him use words like dharma in casual conversation. The story Dan tells himself, though, is that he came to Buddhism because he followed the evidence for it, which I'm sure is true, although I also think most of us decide what to believe, at least partly socially. It's much easier to surrender to an idea if we admire the people who already hold it, if they seem happy, smart, if they fit our arbitrary thumbnail sketch of a wise person. As Dan and I kept talking over the months, I'd noticed how many stories he had about his teachers, memories of the lessons he'd learned by observing them. It's such a funny thing that happens in the human heart, this decision that you're going to become somebody's student, surrender to their ideas or habits. But now, listening to this tape of Laura Lynn instructing Dan on the finer points of her metaphysical views, I just heard no such surrender. And while Dan said the conversation gave him a little more insight into why other people enjoy psychic readings, he still didn't know why his mentors, faced with the same experience, were able to walk through that door. Or if it meant he had to think any differently about them or think any differently about all the other ways he was following their lead. After the break, we watch live as a skilled practitioner tries to gently pry open the mind of Dan Harris.
- [38:07]
Dan Harris
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- [41:05]
PJ Vogt
Welcome back to the show. Last month Dan went back to Dr. Marc Epstein just to remind you, Dr. Mark Epstein, a hugely influential author, Harvard medical trained psychotherapist, as well as a prominent Buddhist. The person in fact who turned Dan onto Buddhism but who also subscribes to all sorts of beliefs Dan considers very woo. The person who told Dan, quote I believe in everything.
- [41:34]
Dan Harris
Do you remember Mark, after one of our many, many meals, you and I were taking a walk from the restaurant. I think I was like walking you back to your apartment and something came up like Tarot or, or astrology. You referenced it in the conversation and then I turned to you. This was back when I was a little bit more hard bitten in my skepticism. I was like, do you really believe in that? And you turned to me and said, I believe in everything. Do you recall that conversation?
- [42:05]
Mark Epstein
Sounds familiar. Yeah, I think we had that conversation a couple of times maybe.
- [42:13]
Dan Harris
What do you mean by that? When you say I believe in everything, what does that mean?
- [42:17]
Mark Epstein
I'm not sure what I meant when I said it then, but you know, I've been around longer than you. The Buddhist thing didn't come wrapped all by itself. So I've been exposed along the way to practitioners and practices of various occult types. And I've always gotten something useful from most of them. So I think that's what I was saying when I say I believe in everything, like I'm, I'm open to them all. Maybe too open.
- [42:45]
Dan Harris
So I've interviewed Mark scores of times and it's a bit like sparring with a cloud. I mean, he, he is hard to pin down and he's got this kind of Zen mischief about him. And so I knew that going in that I wasn't going to get some like, clear answer. He, he doesn't talk that way. He, you know, I think for decades he's been a therapist and he wants the person he's talking to to come to their own conclusion.
- [43:10]
PJ Vogt
I see. He's like a person where you ask him a question, you get a question.
- [43:13]
Dan Harris
Exactly. And he also, like, he likes to with you a little bit. And in this case, in the case of I believe in everything, he was pushing me on some of my insistence on having scientific evidence for everything.
- [43:29]
Mark Epstein
I know I was encouraging you early on to open up your preconceptions to allow for the possibility of stuff that we don't really know about from science.
- [43:43]
Dan Harris
Why was it important for you to push me on that score?
- [43:46]
Mark Epstein
I just always thought it was important for me to push you on any score. That was my job.
- [43:55]
Dan Harris
But you're saying this like it's in the past tense.
- [43:57]
Mark Epstein
Well, it's. It took you 16 years, but now you're doing a show about Laura Lynn Jackson, so.
- [44:04]
Dan Harris
Okay, but I know that part of your job is to mess with me, but, but not.
- [44:10]
Mark Epstein
Why is this not mess with help? I was trying to help you.
- [44:14]
Dan Harris
Okay, so why would it be helping me to prod me toward more openness toward things I might otherwise reflexively.
- [44:23]
Mark Epstein
Open is better than closed. Right. Fluid is better than rigid people who are too sure of Themselves tend to be alienating to others.
- [44:38]
PJ Vogt
Listening to this conversation between Dan and his longtime guide, I thought I could recognize some truth in Mark's statement. I'm more like Dan, more of a non believer, but my non belief has softened some in the last few years. Some of that's social. While I think the tarot people are wrong, they frankly throw much better parties than the fact checkers. So there's that. But then you spend enough time around the believers and sometimes you feel your own killjoyness more acutely, like you're on a diet or fasting for reasons nobody else quite understands. Wouldn't it be nicer to just give in? Dan told me the story of how Mark Epstein became, if not the most open minded person he's ever met, then at least the most open minded person he deeply respects.
- [45:24]
Dan Harris
Young Mark Epstein was sort of anxious, insecure, really, really smart, really, really curious.
- [45:33]
Mark Epstein
I think the times that I grew up in were just the dawning of the Beatles and Transcendental Meditation and LSD and the naivete of that early 60s mindset hit me just in my adolescence.
- [45:50]
Dan Harris
When he was young, it was bedlam. It was the 70s. And he's in Cambridge at Harvard, seeking out everybody on campus who has any interest in anything New Agey.
- [46:04]
Mark Epstein
I found all the occultists at Harvard Medical School. I worked with Lester Grinspoon, who was the first person to advocate for the legalization of marijuana.
- [46:14]
Dan Harris
I wrote a paper on ketamine. He's hanging out with psychics, and of course there's the Dharma and all of the metaphysical claims that are in that. And so he's just in this environment. I mean, he's hanging out with a car mechanic named Carmu who's also a psychic. He's just in this world of drinking from this fire hose. And it's so interesting because he's doing that and getting his degree at Harvard Medical School at the same time.
- [46:40]
PJ Vogt
Okay, so then how does the psychic medium in question enter his life? Like, what was the when and how of that?
- [46:48]
Dan Harris
A friend of his tells him about Laurel Lynn Jackson at a dinner in Woodstock.
- [46:53]
PJ Vogt
Okay.
- [46:54]
Dan Harris
And. And I realize this is all sounds like, you know, a subplot from a Portlandia episode, but he hears about this person and is like, yes, I want to talk to this medium.
- [47:10]
Mark Epstein
It was after my father had died, so it was like 16 years ago or so.
- [47:15]
Dan Harris
So was it the death of your father that made you no intrigue?
- [47:19]
Mark Epstein
No. As I say, I'm always on the lookout for a good psychic or a.
- [47:22]
Dan Harris
Good psychic because you had a, you had a history of encounters, good and bad.
- [47:26]
Mark Epstein
Yeah, I, I have a real history, yeah.
- [47:29]
Dan Harris
Okay, so good and bad, that means that you're not going in with, with zero skepticism.
- [47:33]
Mark Epstein
Oh, no, I'm going in with a lot of skepticism. Yeah.
- [47:37]
Dan Harris
I'm both gullible and skeptical, which I find really interesting. Gullible and skeptical. Okay. So when you first met her, what did you think?
- [47:46]
Mark Epstein
It blew me away.
- [47:48]
Dan Harris
Say more, please.
- [47:49]
Mark Epstein
After the preliminaries, where the, the first thing she does is she gets a sense of your aura. A mix of colors, basically. So she went through that and then the first thing she said to me was, oh, your father's here. He says to tell you you were right. That's the first thing she said. And immediately I thought I knew what she was talking about. My father, who was a well known professor of medicine, had a glioblastoma, which is a malignant brain tumor. And he got it scanned and it had already spread to both sides of his brain. And he knew that there was, you know, very little treatment that was available and communicated that to me. And I was in my office in the city realizing that despite all these years of being interested in spiritual stuff, I had never had a conversation with my father about anything spiritual and certainly about what the Buddhists have taught about what dying is or how to die, you know. So I called him up with some trepidation and said, you know, we've never talked about any of this. I don't know if you're interested, but do you want to know, like, what the Buddhists say? And he was very welcoming. He's like, you know, sure, go ahead. So I needed to try to explain something using none Buddhist or spiritual or New Age language. And so I said something like, you know, that sense of yourself that you've always had inside, that doesn't really change no matter what age you are. You're 20, 40, 60, 80. But inside you're just sort of, you know how it feels to be you. It's sort of transparent, that space. You know it, but you can't really find it. But it's a feeling. I said, what they seem to say is that if you can relax your mind into that kind of transparent feeling of who you've always been, that you can kind of ride that feeling out as the body shuts down. And he said, okay, darling, I'll try. And so when Laura Lynn Jackson said, oh, your father's here, he says to tell you you were right. It resonated with that conversation. So that Made me very receptive to anything else that she was gonna tell me.
- [50:13]
Dan Harris
Well, it's interesting even in that story you acknowledge she might have known that she might have had ways to know things that informed her ut utterances directed at you.
- [50:22]
Mark Epstein
Totally.
- [50:22]
Dan Harris
You're open to that. And you're also open to the fact that she may be communicating with your dead father. And so that's such an interesting.
- [50:29]
Mark Epstein
I mean, she didn't know me at all at that time. She didn't know me at all.
- [50:33]
Dan Harris
And we were on the phone that Google existed.
- [50:37]
Mark Epstein
Google existed. She could have googled, she could have seen that my father had died, et cetera. But.
- [50:46]
Dan Harris
But what?
- [50:47]
Mark Epstein
I prefer to think not. I would much rather be. That's really my father talking through her.
- [50:57]
PJ Vogt
Mark's first reading with Laura Lynn Jackson was many years ago. He's returned to her periodically sense, he says she's really helped him at various junctures in his life. And he's recommended her to friends, to other meditation teachers, and eventually even to his hard headed, skeptical pal, Dan Harris.
- [51:15]
Dan Harris
Here's one thing I'm open to. I'm open to the fact that this is all true. I'm also open to the fact that she sincerely believes what she's doing is real and that she's a smart, empathic, helpful person and that she is helping people. But that is actually not true. Strictly speaking. Is that possible?
- [51:34]
Mark Epstein
Of course. I mean that's the most likely explanation in terms of the world that we operate in. You know, that's a generous interpretation that doesn't require any kind of supernatural anything. If I would have to explain it away, that's how I would explain it. Yeah.
- [51:56]
Dan Harris
And yet it's possible that it, in your view that it's totally legit, what's happening?
- [52:00]
Mark Epstein
Yeah. Oh yeah, I would much prefer to believe that.
- [52:03]
Dan Harris
So I think one of the things you're saying is that you have a real openness and maybe even more than openness, like a belief that there's more going on than science can explain.
- [52:19]
Mark Epstein
Well, I'm just easy to convince. So, you know, that has worked for me and against me over the years.
- [52:31]
Dan Harris
But I don't want to let you off the hook that easily because you're easy to convince. That's funny. It's funny and like you're incredibly smart. And so I just want to nail you down on having thought about this a great deal and having been alive for a non trivial period of time. You're open to the supernatural, to put it quite bluntly, or to the things that might be natural. We call them supernatural now because science hasn't yet caught up.
- [52:55]
Mark Epstein
Yeah. Oh, yes. I mean, if there's one thing I'm sure about, it's that science doesn't know everything.
- [53:02]
Dan Harris
Hmm.
- [53:05]
PJ Vogt
I said in the beginning of all this that a quality I admired about Dan is that he keeps his mind half closed. Dan, like me, is a journalist. It's not just his job, it's a big part of his identity. When journalism works, it's a system for learning about the world skeptically, so that you're wrong less often. You fact check, you double source, you try to write only what you can prove. But Mark Epstein is not a journalist. And he models a different way to learn about the world. Radical open mindedness. To be open minded means you'll get bamboozled sometimes. Mark says people in his circle have certainly fallen for charlatans. But his mind also allows him to benefit from his conversations with psychic types in a way that Dan's can't. Mark's able to think about how his father may have passed peacefully, might even still be out there somewhere watching him, instead of like Dan or me, mainly getting stuck on stuff like how a triangle is not really much of a musical instrument at all, really. I mentioned before how New Agey beliefs have a way of internally setting me off a bit. Plenty that Dan had turned up had given me more of those feelings. But nothing about this conversation with Mark had. And it left me wondering about this balance. Mark described the notion that you'd cultivate in your own mind, not just skepticism, but at the same time credulity, as another positive trait. I asked Dan about it.
- [54:30]
Dan Harris
It's a really tricky balance and, you know, I think it's more art than science just to have the habit of mind to check your own impulse towards certainty. Of course you want to check other people's too, but not in a paralytic way. So this is where the art comes, like openness plus skepticism. That is a recipe for moving through the world, I think, in a little bit more supple fashion. Does that make sense what I'm saying?
- [54:59]
PJ Vogt
It does.
- [55:00]
Dan Harris
To me, that's part of a skillful approach to life. It's like, can you resist certainty? You know, can you be really open in that way? It's a. One of the many design flaws in the human operating system is that we live in this world where everything's changing all the time. Like we're just in a tsunami of uncertainty, uncertainty. And yet we are really allergic to uncertainty. So we are not. Well, designed for the world we inhabit. And so I think that is one of the biggest problems facing the species. We are shouting at each other over politics, over vaccines, over religion, over geopolitical divides, without any empathy, without being willing to understand or even attempt to understand the way other people might view the world. And that was one thing when we were fighting with stones, but now we're fighting with nukes and AI. And so it's this addiction to certainty is an existential threat to the species. And so, you know, Buddhism and other practices or other schools of thought can help nudge you in the direction of the kind of openness that I think Mark is modeling here.
- [56:16]
PJ Vogt
Can I say part of what I think is, like, a little bit difficult about this?
- [56:20]
Dan Harris
Please.
- [56:21]
PJ Vogt
You and I have talked at extended length about how we believe in the importance of uncertainty. We're very certain about how it's important to be uncertain. I can say that. But once you start thinking about opening the door to things you can't prove. What I don't understand is how you decide which things to believe. I don't know where you actually set your level.
- [56:46]
Dan Harris
Did I ever tell you the story about Joseph Goldstein's first meditation teacher? Joseph Goldstein is my meditation teacher and a friend of mine and. And Mark's. And he has a story about his first meditation teacher who he. He came across in a market in India. This guy had been his teacher for a long time. And one day, Joseph was out for a stroll in India, where he was learning from this guy, and he came across his teacher haggling, like, fiercely with one of the vendors. So Joseph goes to his teacher, his name is Manindra, after seeing him haggling over a bag of peanuts or whatever it is, and was like, hey, you are always telling us to keep it simple.
- [57:23]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Dan Harris
And what's that about? And the teacher said to him, yeah. I said, be simple, but not be a simpleton. And that speaks to me, to the balance that Mark is striking here. Like, you should be open, but you should also have boundaries.
- [57:45]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [57:46]
Dan Harris
And can you do those two things at the same time?
- [57:50]
PJ Vogt
Yeah. And knowing, like, being able to think this might be true, this might not be true. But to notice that in Mark's case, he wants to believe in one belief because it's useful to him. It makes him feel good. Whereas another belief, like, would be really not just not useful, but, like, damaging.
- [58:08]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [58:09]
PJ Vogt
His mind is open enough that he can talk to everyone, and his mind is supple enough that he can know when for him, it's good to change it and when for him, it's good not to.
- [58:20]
Dan Harris
Yeah. And just to bring it back to the Buddha, the name Buddha, it means awake. And this is a way to not fall into the sleep of certainty, which is comforting for lots of reasons we've discussed, and not to fall into the opposite kind of sleep, which would be unremitting credulity. And if you're going to make your mind a relentless reconsideration machine, well, you've got to be awake for that. And that's why I think the Buddha spent a lot of time talking about the dangers of being attached to your reviews. He in fact said of himself, I'm not a dogmatist, I'm an analyst. And you got to be awake to analyze.
- [59:01]
PJ Vogt
Yeah, but so then with your teachers who, like, for you, this started with the question of why are all my teachers seeing a psychic medium? Like, where do you, Dan Harris, land on that specific thing?
- [59:18]
Dan Harris
I land on not a agreeing with them that the stuff they're open to is real, but being open to the fact that they might be right. And in that is a teaching, I think around not being so close minded, not being so rigid, not being so addicted to my certainty. It's like in doing this stuff that seems so outlandish to me, they've taught me something. Maybe not what they were aiming to teach me. Like, they didn't teach me that psychic mediums are for sure a thing, but they did teach me that my reflexive judgmentalism is not super helpful.
- [60:11]
PJ Vogt
Dan, thank you.
- [60:13]
Dan Harris
Pleasure. Thank you for letting me make you part of my dilemma.
- [60:18]
PJ Vogt
Oh, I really enjoyed it. Dan Harris. You can find him at his podcast, 10% happier. It's full of thoughtful, funny, meditative conversations. A great place to go if you are ever looking for any help at all with the clamorous voice in your head. I really recommend it. If you want to go even deeper on all things 10% happier, you can check out Dan's website, danharris.com which features guided meditations. If you're curious about Mark's work, you can check out his books. The Zen of Therapy is one. The one that Dan found that made him want to seek Mark out is called Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart. As for us, this is our last episode of the season. We're going to take a month to read and think and find more things worth wondering about. In July, we'll be airing some of our favorite classic episodes. In August, do not forget about us. We will be back with new ones. In the meantime, please keep sending us your questions. We had such a fun time answering them for you this season. We're so excited that we get to do some more. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni. Garrett Graham is our senior producer. This episode was fact checked by Kate Gallagher. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Vazarian. Additional production support on this episode from Hazel May Brian Our intern is Oscar Noxon. This was our last week with Oscar. He is a brilliant, wonderful, relentlessly enthusiastic presence in our office. We are going to miss him, but we are so excited to see what he does Next. From the 10% Happier podcast. Thank you to Dan Harris and senior producer Marissa Schneiderman at Odyssey. Our executive producer is Leah Rhys Dennis and thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Mirandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schaat. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. If you'd like to support our show and get ad free episodes, zero reruns and some bonus audio, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more at Search Engine Show. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. Have a cool summer.
- [63:06]
Dan Harris
Hi Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need a trade in when you switch to T Mobile will give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in. Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender. I'm good.
- [63:33]
PJ Vogt
Seriously, let me check this pocket.
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Dan Harris
Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever.
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PJ Vogt
Switch to T Mobile.
- [63:45]
Dan Harris
Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with.
- [63:47]
PJ Vogt
Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed.
- [63:49]
Dan Harris
We'll even pay off your phone up.
- [63:51]
PJ Vogt
To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond finance agreement 9.9999 and qualifying forwarded for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel CT mobile.com what is dedication?
- [64:08]
Dan Harris
The thing that drives me every day is dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Dae for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge.
- [64:18]
PJ Vogt
And there's this huge responsibility in making.
- [64:20]
Dan Harris
Sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person.
- [64:24]
PJ Vogt
I want him to be able to.
- [64:26]
Dan Harris
Sit back one day and go, we worked together.
- [64:27]
PJ Vogt
We did A good job.
- [64:29]
Dan Harris
That's dedication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov, brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.