Podcast Summary: "Do You Care Too Much What Other People Think of You? Avoid Conflict? Say Yes When You Shouldn't?"

10% Happier with Dan Harris | Guest: Dr. Ingrid Clayton
Release Date: December 1, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the concept of "fawning"—a trauma response where people appease, people-please, or self-minimize in the face of relational threats. Host Dan Harris interviews Dr. Ingrid Clayton, a psychologist and author specializing in this topic, who brings personal and clinical experience to illuminate how chronic or situational fawning arises, why it’s so misunderstood, and most importantly, what can be done to “unfawn.” The discussion covers the physiology of fawning, its roots in trauma, its presence in work and life, and practical, compassionate steps for developing healthier boundaries and self-attunement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is Fawning? (05:48-10:16)

• Definition:
  “Fawning is a relational trauma response where you either appease or caretake to lessen the relational threat.” – Dr. Ingrid Clayton [05:55]

• Relation to Trauma:
  Fawning is an often-misunderstood extension of the fight, flight, or freeze responses. It’s about “connection as protection”—especially when other options for safety (fight/flight) aren’t available.

• Key Insight:
  Fawning isn’t a conscious, calculated choice like “people pleasing.” Instead, it’s an unconscious, reflexive adaptation, often rooted in relationships involving power imbalances, such as family, workplaces, or culture.

Chronic vs Situational Fawning (10:16-12:58)

• Chronic Fawning:
  Originates in consistent childhood trauma or neglect, making the fawn response feel like a fixed part of one’s personality.

  “It’s also deeply conditioned…in all these little micro moments, day after day—abandon yourself, privilege somebody else.” – Dr. Clayton [11:12]

• Situational Fawning:
  More like a survival tactic that’s “turned on” in specific relationships or contexts—often in the presence of authority or physical power.

• Gender & Cultural Factors:
  While not exclusively a female experience, cultural norms often encourage girls/women to fawn (“smile and please”), while boys are allowed to embody a “healthy fight response.” [12:19]

Dr. Clayton’s Personal Story on Fawning (13:22-19:29)

• Grew up with a neglectful mother and a stepfather who groomed her—didn’t have trauma language until adulthood.
• Fawn response became chronic and “felt like my personality.”
• Realized, even as a psychologist, she could not “think” herself out of chronic fawning; solutions like, “You’re amazing, why care what people think?” overlook the body’s deep-rooted survival programming. [13:22-17:02]
• Path to healing involved embracing the physiological/somatic roots and reducing shame.

Physiology & The Nervous System (19:55-21:54)

• Fawning is a “hybrid trauma response”—a mix of sympathetic (mobilizing) and parasympathetic (collapsing/dissociative) nervous system activation.
• Chronic disconnection from self—"we don't even realize we’re losing autonomy and agency.”

“If I’m disconnected from me in order to prioritize you, it makes sense that I don’t even understand that this is what I’m doing.” – Dr. Clayton [20:33]

The Pernicious Role of Shame (22:05-23:17)

• Relational trauma instils worthlessness (“worth as the wound”).
• Seeking help can lead to further shame if met with minimization or “toxic positivity.”
• Fawning perpetuates shame due to self-abandonment in relationships.

Reframing the Internal Narrative—From “What’s Wrong With Me?” to “What Happened To Me?” (23:26-25:25)

• Dr. Clayton cites Bruce Perry’s shift in mental health: Healing requires contextualizing trauma as an adaptation—shame impedes recovery.
• No “magic finish line” for healing: “Healing is a process, not a finish line. There’s just layers of discovery and then grief, and then more discovery and more grief…Limitless opportunities for growth.” – Dan Harris [25:25]

Power Dynamics & Why Fawning Hides in Plain Sight (27:51-29:46)

• Power imbalances (gender, race, job titles) determine which threat responses are available.
• Fawning is less obvious than fighting or fleeing because it involves moving toward relationship—even when the relationship is harmful.
• “Fawning is hiding in plain sight.” [28:19]

Practical Guidance & How to Unfawn

Owning Anger: Its Importance and Expression (37:36-42:50)

• Cultural & spiritual contexts often devalue anger, but for fawners, connecting with anger is critical.
• Physicalizing anger: techniques like gentle pushing on a wall, noticing fight/flight sensations in the body, shaking out tension—help to “release” what has been held.
• Self-compassion and non-judgement toward these feelings are key.

“To act as though that’s not just a healthy, vital part of the human condition—it’s just not realistic.” – Dr. Clayton [39:38]

Steps to Recognize Fawning in Yourself (44:35-47:45)

Signs and Manifestations:

• Habitually befriending people in power, minimizing self, conflict avoidance, hypervigilance.
• “Relationships are a math problem: everyone else gets 80%, you get 20%.”
• Shape-shifting, shame spirals, resentment from caretaking, using sex as currency (sexual fawning).

“Sexuality can become sort of fused with this fawning where I’m not being sexual…out of conscious choice. I’m doing it because I believe if I don’t, I will not be safe.” – Dr. Clayton [47:17]

Steps to Unfawn (48:00-55:34)

1. Start with Self (Inner Work)

• Don’t rush to set boundaries or confront others. Begin by building an inner sense of safety and self-connection (somatic experiencing, internal family systems).
• Practice noticing physical sensations, tuning in to your body, and relating compassionately to yourself.

2. Practice Small External Risk-Taking

• Speak up in low-stakes situations (e.g., send back wrong orders, state a restaurant preference).
• Each successful experience provides feedback: “Maybe I could take a risk in another place.” [49:50]

3. Move Beyond Binary Thinking (51:11-52:36)

• Let go of “all-or-nothing” recovery—focus on flexibility. Every step counts, and setbacks are not failures.
• “The goal is not to never fawn again…but not to live in survival mode 24/7.” [50:34]

4. Simple Nervous System Practices (53:16-57:01)

• Use your senses to ground yourself: notice colors, sounds, physical sensations around you.
• Recall or imagine safe, happy, or connected times. “These things are powerful.” [42:50, 56:59]
• Regular walks in nature or your neighborhood as “micro-resets.”

5. Setting Boundaries (62:16-63:16)

• Start with “modified boundaries”—not all or nothing; communicate specific needs and partial agreements.
• Practice vulnerability and transparency with safe people: “Can we hold difference? Can we be even closer as a result?” [63:23]
• Boundaries can be nuanced (not just yes/no or in/out).

6. Grieve the Losses, Celebrate Authenticity (64:25-67:07)

• Unfawning may mean losing or changing relationships. Grieving is part of the process.
• “I would rather have me in my own life than sacrifice that for a relationship…It’s not a real relationship if I’m not even there to have it.” – Dr. Clayton [66:27]

7. Applying These Tools in Work Relationships (68:10-72:18)

• Chronic fawning with a boss or in a job is a valid form of relational trauma.
• Ask: “What do I think would happen if I didn’t fawn?” Sometimes, self-compassion (“I’m doing what I need to stay safe”) is as important as changing behavior.
• All bodies are capable of fawning—the work applies whether trauma is “big T” or “little t,” chronic or episodic.

Power, Leadership, and Creating Safe Environments (73:32-76:36)

• If you’re in a position of authority, it’s on you to “go first”: invite dissent, reward speaking up, and demystify your own responses.
• Cultivate curiosity: “Hey, I have a sense you’re holding something back. I genuinely want to know what you’re feeling…” [73:53]
• Solicit feedback on whether your environment is perceived as safe for authenticity.

Healing is Relational (78:18-81:08)

• “Wounding happens in relationship and healing happens in relationship.”
• Dr. Clayton shares that being seen—in her fullness and messiness, as a therapist and survivor—was transformative:

“When I allowed my whole self to be seen…and this could make me weep—my whole self was seen. And it changed my life.” [78:56]

• Self-seeing is equally powerful: validating your own wounds if external validation never comes (“That was real. That happened, and I’m so sorry.”) [32:11]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Normalizing Fawning:
  “Fawning is hiding in plain sight.” – Dr. Clayton [28:19]
• On Healing:
  “Healing is a process, not a finish line.” – Dan Harris [25:25]
• On the Role of Anger:
  “To act as though that’s not just a healthy, vital part of the human condition—it’s just not realistic.” – Dr. Clayton [39:38]
• On Relational Healing:
  “When I allowed my whole self to be seen…my whole self was seen. And it changed my life.” – Dr. Clayton [78:56]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• What is Fawning? – 05:48-10:16
• Chronic vs Situational Fawning – 10:16-12:58
• Personal Story – 13:22-19:29
• Physiology of Fawning – 19:55-21:54
• Role of Shame – 22:05-23:17
• Owning and Expressing Anger – 37:36-42:50
• Signs of Fawning – 44:35-47:45
• Practical Steps to Unfawn – 48:00-55:34
• Boundary Setting – 62:16-63:16
• Fawning at Work – 68:10-72:18
• Power & Leadership – 73:32-76:36
• Healing in Relationship – 78:18-81:08

Resources & Further Learning

• Dr. Ingrid Clayton’s book:
  Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back (Available in print and audio)
• Modalities discussed:
  • Somatic Experiencing (Peter Levine), Internal Family Systems (Dick Schwartz), EMDR
• “What Happened To You?” by Dr. Bruce Perry
• [Related 10% Happier podcast episodes on trauma and healing—see show notes for links]

Final Takeaways

• Fawning is a deeply wired, often invisible survival strategy—neither a flaw nor a fixed fate.
• Healing involves compassion, body awareness, incremental risk, and a move toward authentic selfhood—not “fixing” but ongoing growth.
• Both those who fawn and those in positions of power have agency in creating more authentic, reciprocal, and healing relationships.

For more practices on unfawning, boundary setting, and nervous system regulation, check out the meditation and further resources provided at danharris.com.