Podcast Summary:

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Episode: George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Dan Harris
Guest: George Saunders — Novelist, Booker Prize winner, creative writing professor (Syracuse), and author of Vigil

Episode Overview

Dan Harris sits down with celebrated novelist George Saunders to explore practical and philosophical strategies for getting "unstuck" in life and creativity, handling self-criticism, and building a resilient sense of empathy—without falling into naivete. They discuss the themes of Saunders' new novel Vigil, the psychological realities behind our inner critics and self-deception, and the complex interplay between understanding, empathy, and effective action in a tumultuous world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Premise and Playfulness of Vigil

• Book Overview (04:35):
  Saunders describes "Vigil" as the story of Jill, a young woman who died in 1976, became a ghostly "death doula," and now comforts the dying—including a climate change-denying oil executive.
• On Why Write About Ghosts and the Afterlife (05:49):
  Saunders frames writing as driven by "anticipatory frolic." Ghosts allow him to inject both humor and serious reflection, making the process of writing more joyful and stretched beyond routine realism.

"If I put a ghost of a former waiter in there, suddenly I'm like, oh, that could be funny." (05:49, George Saunders)

2. Mortality as a Lifelong Theme

• Childhood Dread (07:42):
  Saunders has always felt mortality's "dread," intensified but not originated by aging:

"It's getting a little worse now that I'm, you know, in my 300th decade. But I remember as a little kid ... life was intrinsically a morally urgent thing." (07:42, George Saunders)

• Living in the Face of Impermanence (08:53):
  Harris likens mortality to being pulled aside at a great party and told you must leave at an unknown moment—provoking both savoring and anxiety.

3. Afterlife, Mindset, and the Moment of Death

• Cosmology and Experience (09:52):
  Saunders suspects that "something happens" after death, possibly linked to the mind’s state at the moment of passing, reflecting both Buddhist and Western anxieties about “getting it right” at the end.

"I have a suspicion that experience wouldn't be entirely untethered from either the way you lived your life or maybe, terrifyingly, the state of your mind at the moment of the exit." (09:52, George Saunders)

• Buddhist Perspective (13:26):
  Harris explains that Buddhist cosmology gives importance to mental training throughout life, so that "even if you're in a state of horror or anger or pain or delusion... you've got a fighting chance of a next act that's pleasant." (13:26, Dan Harris)

4. Living with Delusion and Self-Deception

• Suffering as a State of Mind (15:08):
  Saunders contends that "existing in a delusional relation to reality" breeds suffering every minute. He draws parallels between ghostly stuckness and real-life denial or unfulfilled desires.

"If you go through your whole life not listening to other people ... there's some kind of negativity that accrues ... the punishment and reward is being collected in every instant, whether or not you ever learn about it." (15:08, George Saunders)

5. The Blind Spots of Self-Deception

• Having Sympathy for Others, Not for Self (16:32):
  The hallmark of delusion is its invisibility to oneself:

"It's a blind spot... What's that thing about me? And it's really hard to know." (16:32, Dan Harris)

6. Authorial Challenges and ‘Fun’

• Embracing Difficulty (18:33):
  Saunders discusses how getting “stuck” in writing, while hard, can also be a source of creative energy; recognizing and working through the discomfort is an inherent part of the process.

"The harder it is in the middle, the greater the problem the book is trying to solve." (18:47, George Saunders)

7. Getting Unstuck: The Importance of Warm Self-Dialogue

• Moving Past Anxiety (20:30):
  Saunders’s approach to stuckness involves compassionate self-inquiry:

“Not, ‘oh, damn it, I'm stuck, I'm worthless.’ But, ‘oh, okay, I'm stuck.’” (20:30, George Saunders)

• Curiosity Over Judgment:
  He recommends nurturing curiosity and a willingness to accept any answer—even unwelcome ones—in both writing and life.

8. Warm Metacognition and Scalability to Dharma Practice

• Layers of Introspection (24:39):
  Harris describes Saunder’s process as “a habit of warm metacognition,” adding grandfatherly layers of gentle remove to his self-assessment, a practice akin to Buddhist mindfulness.

"You're adding in levels of warm remove over and over. Is that a decent description?" (24:39, Dan Harris) "A warm metacognition. I'll remember that. That's exactly it." (25:19, George Saunders)

9. Good Intention, Revision, and Imagination

• Writers’ Responsibility (26:50):
  Saunders strives for sincerity and a sense that each work is done with “good intention,” imagining a discerning, beloved reader.

10. The Value and Limits of Empathy

• Lavish Empathy (29:56, 32:41):
  Saunders explores “radical empathy” through his character Jill, who inhabits the minds of others, even her killer, to understand them without judgment.

"Maybe we should judge a little less harshly and praise with a little more reserve because none of us designed ourselves." (32:41, George Saunders)

• Empathy, Without Naivete (35:45):
  Empathy, for Saunders, doesn’t preclude stern action; understanding “the sorrows of your enemy” makes you a more effective actor.

“You can do that for a long time and you can still act. I would argue that it makes you a more effective actor if you have a political opponent.” (35:45, George Saunders)

11. On Fiction as a “Reconsideration Machine”

• The Power of Story (43:00):
  Saunders references Chekhov and Tolstoy, describing great fiction as an engine that slows down the rush to judgment:

“In a Chekhov story, you get so much information that your whole desire to judge dissipates and you get this feeling like, ah, that's how it is.” (43:00, George Saunders)

• Harris aspires to turn his own mind into “a reconsideration machine.” (44:31, Dan Harris)

12. Absolution, Karma, and Last-Minute Redemption

• K.J. Boone’s Fate (48:43):
  Can there be salvation for someone who recognizes his errors only on his deathbed? Saunders believes an honest internal reckoning is valuable but does not undo external harm:

“If a person could do that, I think it is a kind of a salvation because they're not trapped in that denial mindset anymore. It doesn't undo anything that they did.” (48:43, George Saunders)

13. Creative Stretching in Aging

• Stretching Against Fading Habits (53:39, 55:51):
  As Saunders ages, stretching creatively is essential to keep discovering unexplored parts of the self and to avoid shrinking into habitual patterns:

“Anything that can pop you out of that is so welcome... writing a book that is hard for me is a way of reminding myself that actually consciousness is unlimited, but we sort of pen it in with habit.” (55:51, George Saunders)

14. Mortality, Meditation, and Tenderness

• Death Awareness (57:21):
  Mortality is now more real than ever for Saunders at 67, not so much fear as "consciousness, alertness, awareness."
• Art as Preparation for Tenderness (60:04):
  Saunders sees both writing and spiritual practice as ways to deeply realize that “everything matters. Suffering is real, death is imminent.”

“Chekhov said that art prepares us for tenderness. And I think that this is also what spiritual practice can do.” (60:09, George Saunders)

15. The Challenge of Method and Genuine Engagement

• Talking about Writing vs. Writing (60:38):
  Saunders notes a tendency to overconfidently talk about method, which can obscure openness to the work itself. True creativity means "being willing to accept any answer."

16. The Art of Listening and Communication (62:18)

• Harris on Learning to Listen (62:48): Hosting the podcast has made Harris a better listener, lessening his habit of “flooding” with information—a skill drawn from meditation and communication coaching.
• Saunders Echoes in Teaching:
  As a writing professor, he too now leans back, allowing his students to reach their own insights, reserving “judo-like” interventions for the right moment.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On mortality and celebration:
  "If you were at a really amazing party... and somebody came up to you and said, you're going to have to leave, but I can't tell you when... you'd want to say this party is even better and I've got to submerge myself into the pleasures of this." (07:42, George Saunders)
• On self-accusation and warm self-talk:
  "Not, ‘oh, damn it, I'm stuck, I'm worthless.’ But, ‘oh, okay, I'm stuck.’" (20:30, George Saunders)
• On empathy and political action:
  “The more time you can spend trying to understand them from the inside, the more effectively you can push back. I don't think there's any limitation [to empathy].” (35:45, George Saunders)
• On the value of revision:
  "Revision is something that does that for sure... writing a book that is hard for me is a way of reminding myself that actually consciousness is unlimited, but we sort of pen it in with habit." (55:51, George Saunders)
• On the tension between talking and doing:
  "When you talk about it, you always fuck it up, you kind of reduce it. You sound more confident than you actually are. And in a game that really is all about showing up to the thing you're working on and being willing to accept any answer..." (60:38, George Saunders)

Key Timestamps

• 04:35 – Saunders introduces "Vigil" and the concept of a “death doula” ghost.
• 05:49 – Why ghosts and the afterlife? Balancing fun and serious topics in writing.
• 07:42 – Mortality as a central preoccupation since childhood.
• 13:26 – Buddhist views of the afterlife; importance of mind state at death.
• 15:08 – Living in delusion, suffering as everyday experience.
• 18:33 – The “fun” and value of overcoming creative difficulty.
• 20:30 – Warm metacognitive self-talk; getting unstuck in writing and life.
• 24:39 – Harris introduces “warm metacognition” as a guiding term.
• 32:41 – Saunders’ worldview: empathy driven by the knowledge that no one “chooses” themselves.
• 35:45 – Saunders on how empathy doesn't mean weakness.
• 43:00 – On fiction as a “brief reconsideration machine.”
• 48:43 – Is last-minute redemption possible? The limits and value of remorse.
• 53:39 – The importance of stretching creatively, especially with age.
• 57:21 – Death awareness and life’s uncertainty intensifies with age.
• 60:09 – Art, tenderness, and spiritual practice.
• 62:48 – How podcasting and teaching have made both men better listeners.

Takeaway

This episode is a wide-ranging yet deeply personal conversation about how to greet life's stuckness, self-doubt, and moral complexity with curiosity, warmth, and the most effective kind of empathy. George Saunders champions an approach to creativity (and life) that stretches past habit, acknowledges pain, and prizes gentle awareness—without losing necessary edge. Storytelling, meditation, and everyday mindful communication all become laboratories for practicing these liberating perspectives.

Resources Mentioned

• Vigil by George Saunders (Random House, Jan 27)
• Story Club – George Saunders’ Substack community
• “A Swim in a Pond in the Rain” – Saunders’ book of literary analysis
• Joseph Goldstein – Meditation teacher
• Sharon Salzberg – Meditation teacher; “use your umbrella and compassionately smack them” story

For more guidance, empathy, and humor in the face of suffering—fictional or otherwise—listen to the full podcast or check out George Saunders’ latest work.