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How a Buddhist Monk Deals With Anxiety | Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
00:55:22
Anxiety has long been a massive societal issue that spiked during the pandemic, and many of us are still feeling it in 2025. In this episode, renowned Buddhist monk talks in detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic and the...
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- [00:00]
Dan Harris
Foreign. This is the 10% happier podcast.
- [00:07]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I'm Dan Harris.
- [00:19]
Dan Harris
Hey everybody, how we doing? I had a funny experience when I was asked to give a TED Talk a couple of years ago. I showed up at the TED Conference in Vancouver and I was completely freaked out and anxious.
- [00:31]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I know, I know, I know.
- [00:32]
Dan Harris
I've been doing public speaking my whole life. How could I be so nervous? Don't forget, I'm the guy who had a panic attack on live television, which you can Google. I think if you put in the words panic attack on television, it's the first result. It's probably the best known achievement, if.
- [00:46]
Mingyur Rinpoche
You want to call it that, in.
- [00:47]
Dan Harris
My life, having a live panic attack. So that explains, in part at least, why I was so nervous when I arrived at Ted. While that panic attack back in 2004 was largely fueled by cocaine, which I don't do anymore, I still really do get nervous about public speaking. Plus, I'd never done a TED Talk before, and that seemed like a uniquely terrifying experience. Also contributing to my nerves, I was debuting material from a book that I've now been working on for many, many years, and I was really worried about how that material would be received. So anyway, I was super relieved when on the first day I went to lunch in the area where all the speakers have their meals and I saw that Mingyur Rimp was there. You may have heard that name, Mingyur Rinpoche before. He's been on the show several times. He's a renowned Buddhist monk from Nepal. He's the son of a revered meditation master, and he started doing long retreats himself in his teens and he now teaches all over the world. He's written several books, including the Joy of Living and In Love with the World. And he oversees the Targar Meditation community, which is a global network of Buddha Buddhist meditation centers. Long way of saying he's a very impressive dude. In any event, when I saw him, I went right over to him and asked, how are you doing? And his answer was, and I'm quoting here, dying. In other words, he was just as nervous as I was. I wasn't entirely surprised by this, honestly, given that Dominguer has been very public about his own history of panic attacks. But really, that story was a delightful example of how honest and relatable the dude is. And even though he was nervous, he did take time to look out for me. The next morning, he carved out some time and he and I got together and he led me in a one on one guided meditation and taught me a little bit about how to handle fear. And in the end my talk went reasonably well. I've now brought him onto this show to help all of us, not just keeping him to myself, not just hoarding all of his time for selfish purposes. Anxiety has been a massive societal issue and it has spiked in recent years. I feel like many of us have this sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious inner talk track that is constantly secreting thoughts like how am I doing? Is everything okay? Am I safe? Does this person like me? Do they not like me? Et cetera, et cetera. And in this interview, Mingyur talks in detail about how he personally works with anxiety and panic and the practices he draws upon from his years of study. And I should say that these practices, even though he's an eminent monk, these practices are doable for all of us. We talk about working with strong emotions, using sound and the breath. We talk about deconstructing your reality to make it more workable. We talk about understanding what awareness is in a Buddhist sense, how it's our fundamental nature and always present, how to make meditation free range and available to you at all times. In other words, portable. The simple but also very tricky advice of stop doing and just be when to take a step back and even take a break from meditation and what Mingyer says is the true purpose of the practice Couple little notes before I dive in here. First, I should say that we recorded this at the TED Conference. Big thank you to the wonderful people at that organization who gave us a space and the equipment to record. A couple days after we recorded this, Mingyer actually delivered his own TED Talk and he didn't die. I was in the fourth row. He completely nailed it. He got a standing ovation. I'll put a link to his talk.
- [04:21]
Mingyur Rinpoche
In the show notes.
- [04:23]
Dan Harris
The other thing to say before we dive in here is that this episode was originally posted back in July of 2022, but we thought it was worth going back into the archives and reposting it. We'll get started with Mingyur Rinpoche coming.
- [04:36]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Up right after this.
- [04:38]
Dan Harris
My team and I have been going through the mind numbing process of scoring health insurance providers. As you may know, we're really at the beginning stages of launching a new company as I move away from the old company that I used to be part of and health insurance is just part of the deal. You gotta do it. And the fact is, it's often confusing, expensive and frustrating and claim denials are becoming more and more common. In fact, 1 in 5 Obamacare claims claims were denied last year the headache of health insurance is exactly why crowd health was created. It's not health insurance. It's a better way to pay for health care through crowdfunding. So stop sending money to big insurance companies who profit off of not paying your bills and check out crowd health. It's a health insurance alternative. For 175 bucks for an individual or $575 for a family of four or more, you get access to a community of people who are willing to help out in the event of an emergency. You'll get access to telemedicine visits, discounted prescriptions, and much more without doctors networks getting in the way. And of course, you'll join the crowd, a group of members just like you who want to help pay for each other's unexpected medical events. Let crowd health help with your health care needs. Get started today with just $99 a month for your first three months by using happier@joincrowdhealth.com Crowd health is not insurance and you can learn more@joincrowdhealth.com that's joincrowdhealth.com Code Happier this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace if you have a business of any kind, you probably need a website. I say this with some personal experience.
- [06:17]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Given that I've just gone through the.
- [06:19]
Dan Harris
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- [07:20]
Mingyur Rinpoche
This is when you're starting a new.
- [07:22]
Dan Harris
Business, so head to squarespace.com 10happier for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, use offer code 10Happier to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [07:40]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Mingyur Rinpoche, welcome back to the show. Great to see you. So nice to be with you in person, I have to say.
- [07:46]
C
Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [07:47]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And full disclosure to people listening. I've had a chance to spend a little bit of time with Rinpoche over the last couple of days, and I consider that to be an extreme privilege.
- [07:57]
C
So thank you very much.
- [07:59]
Mingyur Rinpoche
As we talk, as we sit here right now, you are personally two days away from your first TED Talk. And one of the things that's really helped me as I was ramping up to deliver my first TED Talk yesterday, was that you were very open with me about the fact that you have been nervous. In fact, the first day where I saw you, which was the first day of ted, I said, how are you doing? And you smiled and said, dying. And to have somebody who's practiced as deeply as you have admit that was just incredibly impactful for me. So I'd love to hear how are you doing right now as your talk approaches and how do you handle your nervousness and anxiety?
- [08:42]
C
Of course I feel nervous about this. There's some kind of sense of fear. But for me, the most important thing is I always discover kind of like can be with something beyond fear and anxiety within me, kind of a deeper level, that sense of contentment, like joy. And these are why I feel like that way, because I received a lot of meditation teachings in the past, and I've been practicing meditation and a sense of discovery that our fundamental nature is wonderful. There is what I call awareness, loving, compassion, wisdom, three in one. And that is a background of fear, background of panic, depression, of course. Life has so many things, not so easy. Up and down, up and down, up and down. And I cannot stop up and down. And even if I stop up and down, I become like zombie, isn't it? So in a way, I'm happy to have some anxiety, but at the same time, of course, anxiety is anxiety and I'm fully aware of this anxiety. But at the same time, like, I don't mind to have anxiety. Kind of two funny feeling together. Yeah.
- [10:04]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Let me see if I can restate some of that back to you just to make sure that I understand it. It's so interesting to hear the notion that you're happy to have anxiety on some level. So if I understand this correctly, there are the waves in your mind.
- [10:16]
C
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Fear, nervousness. But then there is what is knowing that the waves are there. Yeah, Awareness, which comes with love and wisdom.
- [10:27]
C
Awareness, awareness, love and wisdom. Three in one. Yeah. So when I was young, when I feel nervous, what I have only nervous. That's all. Deeper level, uncertainty, Cold, lonely sometime. Although my father keep telling me, you have this wonderful nature, and I don't believe it, I thought, he's doing his job, you know, father's job, just try to please me. But then as I practice meditation, this experiential style, and there's aha each time. And then I had panic attacks when I was young. That really helps me. I consider my panic as my teacher, my friend. So now I went, you know, wandering, retreat. Life is not so easy. I was with my attendant, with a wonderful place, with nice food, nice warm bed, comfort zone. Of course, a little bit naive at the beginning. I'm thinking that, oh, you know, wonderful things happen, I almost died. But even the moment I'm almost going to die, I try to practice meditation. And what I discover is awareness is so present. Even though my body become paralyzed, I cannot see, I cannot hear, and the normal thought are gone. But the fundamental quality of awareness become more vivid, more present.
- [11:48]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I think a lot of people will hear this and say, okay, that sounds great. I've got so much stress and anxiety in my life. I've got good things too, but there are ups and downs and the downs suck. And you're saying I need to not have the downs or the anxiety or the fear or the anger, whatever, take up the whole screen. I need to be able to drop out of it and into this space of nonjudgmental warm awareness.
- [12:13]
Dan Harris
How so?
- [12:15]
C
The key point is not try to get out of panic or not try to fight with the panic, not try to do anything with panic. Actually, the key point is be with awareness. So I was born in the Himalayan mountain, right middle of the mountain, what we call Manasilo, 8th highest mountain in the world. And we have a lot of storms in the Himalayan mountain. The winter we have snowstorm, summer thunderstorm. I was really afraid of those storms, you know, each time like that and run, I just quick run inside my house and hiding there. In the winter we have snowstorm, the wind coming from the north to the south. And I run and hold the pillar in the middle of the house. And my mom was laughing. So much of that happening in the mountain. And my father said, all these storms, cloud comes in the sky. But no matter how the storm there in the sky, the nature of sky cannot be changed by storm or pollution. Sky is always present, pure calm. And you can have cloud, allow cloud to come and Go. But the problem is, of course, when he told me at the beginning, the problem for me is, yeah, maybe you can do that. How come I have this wonderful nature, I'm so, so unhappy, and I cannot barely manage with my panic. What I'm thinking is what I have is only panic. I cannot see this wonderful sky within me. But then he said, you have to connect with that systematic practice, step by step. So first step for me is sound meditation. So important thing is you just listen to sound, let panic come and go. Don't try to stop panic. Important thing is what we call awareness. To check do I still remember the sound or not? As long as if you still remember, you can have thought, you can have panic. You can have pizza, what I call, what is it? Pizza. Pizza 2 pizza 3 pizza 10. Pizza comes around you. If you still hear the sound, you're fine. So that is meditation. So when you allow these things, then that is the beginning of acceptance, beginning of forgiveness, self love, self compassion. Not so easy, of course. And for me, it's not easy. I've been meditating since 9, but still I'm learning every year.
- [14:56]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And that is why you're happy to have nervousness and anxiety for your talk, because it's teaching you to get better at meditation.
- [15:04]
C
Yep, it make me more, more alive and it remind me more practice.
- [15:10]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I'd love to get you to say a little bit more about how to do this sound meditation because I, as you were describing it, I was kind of projecting myself into it and imagining that I would be sitting there listening. Say I'm sitting in a hotel room and I'm hearing the traffic noise outside and the motion in the elevator shaft and maybe the cleaning staff in the hallway hearing all of these sounds and then noticing big waves of fear or anxiety or whatever afflictive emotion happens to be in the playground at that time. And I can imagine yanking myself back into the sound, kind of being aggressive about, oh, no, no, no, you've gotten lost, bad boy. Be hyper vigilant for more sounds to listen to so that we can get out of this terrible emotion. I know that's not the correct way to practice, but I can imagine myself practicing in that way. So what should I do?
- [16:03]
C
Yeah, of course, at the beginning, what we call it's very difficult to work with strong emotion. So at the beginning, we try to find nice place, quite reasonable, calm environment. And you can begin with quite calm sound at the beginning. But how to practice that normal, what we call relaxed muscles in your body relax, meaning let it be as it Is if you cannot relax, allow that. Cannot relax. Just be as it is and keep spine loosely straight. And you can close your eyes if you want. At the beginning, then just listen. Ear and the mind together. Let's say I'm snapping. It's just if you hear now that is meditation actually just here, here with your mind. Sometime we hear the sound with the ear and mind only listen or thinking with the pizza, forget about the sound. But if you not forget the sound, you are in meditation. You don't need strong focus. You don't need to stop thought and any sound. Actually, if you are in the hotel, people are chatting. You can listen to chat or the car, the traffic. You can jump to the traffic or maybe birds there. You can listen to birds or someone coughing. You can listen to cough. You can jump here and there, no problem. As long as if you remember the sound, it's like almost like pre pro listening. Meaning you just open your ear, you don't need to even look for sound. Let sound come to you. And of course we cannot listen sound too long at the beginning, only a few seconds. What I call glimpse. Glimpse we may forget or be unclear. Doesn't matter again short time, many times what happen then slowly, slowly awareness become more salience. Actually, what we call you don't have to do anything, just bing with the sound. And that really change. Actually mind become pliable and walkable. Yes.
- [18:19]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I wonder if people might get confused when you say remember the sound. Because people might think, well, I'm recalling some sound from a few minutes ago. But you mean just remember to hear what's effortlessly appearing in your ear right now?
- [18:32]
C
Yes. Remember that you are still hearing. Am I forget sound? Oh, no, no, I'm still hearing. If you hear, you're fine. But problem most people, what they do is I have to focus on the thought. Coming, pizza coming. No, no, no. Only sound very clear, concentrated, then become problem.
- [18:51]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Well, you've just described most of my meditation career right there. And what has really helped me is to remember that the awareness requires no effort at all. It is happening without quote, unquote, me. And sometimes I even just say the word in my mind, effortless. Just to bring me back to the fact that I don't have to do anything to hear it's happening without me.
- [19:14]
C
Yes, yes, that's correct. That's correct. So that's aha.
- [19:18]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Yes, that is aha.
- [19:20]
C
And you will discover more about yourself. And that is awareness is your fundamental nursery. Your consciousness is awareness. And that awareness, sometimes what we call luminosity, clarity and Self luminosity. It's like lamp awareness itself is awakeful, awakeful, present. So actually you don't have to meditate. You just be with your mind as it is. Everything's there. But of course it takes time to do, not do, you know?
- [19:54]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Right, right, right, right, exactly. Takes time to learn how to not do.
- [19:57]
C
Yes.
- [19:58]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And I think what's so helpful about your honesty about your own situation, about your own mind, is that even all these years into meditation, all these people you've taught how to meditate, here you are at a moment where there's some anxiety coming up in your own mind and you have to remember to be with whatever's happening right now rather than eating the pizza.
- [20:19]
C
Yeah.
- [20:21]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Coming up, Mingyur Rinpoche on connecting with.
- [20:24]
Dan Harris
Awareness through sound and the breath. How to think about meditation as building a muscle and specific practices for working.
- [20:31]
Mingyur Rinpoche
With anxiety and panic.
- [20:33]
Dan Harris
Right after this quick free association exercise for you. When you think of the word mom, what other words come to mind? Strength, patience, love. One word that comes to mind for me is. Is home. Of course, motherhood looks different for everybody. Some people have moms who shape them, Some people are moms themselves. And some carry the love of motherhood in their hearts in different ways, even if they're not moms or parents at all. But I want to come back to this idea of mom equaling home. At least that's how it scans for me and is Mother's Day. Whether you're celebrating mom, remembering one, longing to be one, or navigating motherhood in some sort of unexpected way, moms deserve the best. That is where Cozy Earth comes in. From their temperature regulating bedding to their ultra soft pajamas, Cozy Earth creates comfort that feels like home because home feels like mom. Cozy Earth's bamboo pajamas are the perfect way to wrap yourself or that special person in your life in comfort and care. Just last night I saw one of the principal moms in my life, the mother of my child Bianca, walking around in in some Cozy Earth green colored bamboo pajamas. They look fetching and I have to say this is a woman with discerning taste. And if she did not like these.
- [21:46]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Pajamas, she would not be voluntarily wearing them.
- [21:48]
Dan Harris
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- [23:10]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Off your first order.
- [23:19]
Dan Harris
Before we started.
- [23:20]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Rolling, you said there were three steps that you often discuss with your students.
- [23:26]
Dan Harris
Because I asked you what are you.
- [23:27]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Hearing from your students these days? And you said anxiety, not only about their own lives and also about the state of the world. The first step, I believe was sound meditation, which we've covered.
- [23:36]
C
Yeah. So first step is what we call of course awareness is always with us, always present, wonderful. But to connect with that at the beginning, not so easy. For example, this room has full of light right now there's a light here in this empty room. So how you connect to the light, not easy to see light in the empty space. You can see light on that wall here, on the table, on your face. So you can see light on something in the space itself. To connect with the light in the space itself is quite difficult at the beginning. So therefore we need to have support. The support of the awareness is could be sound, could be your own breath or what I call mental recitation. You can come up a word, any word is okay. Traditionally we use mantra. So mantra is okay. Anything, sometime. What I call I'm fine, everything's fine, I'm fine, everything's fine. That's also okay. So come up a word and recite that word silently. Don't use your mouth. So when you do that, what happens? You are connecting with awareness, being awareness through sound, being awareness through your own breath or the mental Recitation, let's say sound, being knowing, be aware. That is the awareness. But you cannot aware awareness itself at the beginning, but with object. And then second benefit is it has become like mental exercise. You know, when you go into the gym, we do all this exercise at the beginning. We cannot do too much. We do a little bit. And slowly, slowly our body become fit. It good for immune system in our body become more healthier, more flexible, more pliable. Same thing with the mind. At the beginning, you cannot listen to sound too long. You cannot recite the word too long. But slowly, slowly become longer, clear, more effortless. And awareness become automatically salient more and more. So these are first steps. So what I call at least we have to do this about one to two months and every day, at least five minutes. Every day is important, regular. You cannot do too much. That's okay. But every day, little bit. Little bit. Little bit is very important. Like exercise. You cannot do too much is one time, but you have to exercise every day a little bit. This is the first step and second step. What we call now. Normally what we call. We can meditate everywhere, anytime, with anything. So one time I was in one big city. I saw big truck in front of me. You know, when I go my driver. When I go to the right side, truck comes to right side. When we go to the left side, truck come to the left side. And I was like, look, it's a shipment truck, you know, shipping things. And behind said, you can ship everywhere, anytime, anything. So I thought it's good for meditation. Advertisement so now I change. You can meditate everywhere, anytime, with anything. So therefore you can use your own problem now. So I use my panic. But if panic is your major affliction or major strong emotion, then don't try with the panic first. Try with the small one. So when I was young, I tried to work with the panic. It's overwhelming. I cannot even watch. Then suddenly my body become. My heart speed up and I will sweat. And I feel I cannot breathe. And my neck become very tight. Then what I do is. My father said try to find another emotion. So I look anger. I don't angry. Oftenly anger is not so much issue with me. So then I try to remember past anger and be with anger. And that is stepping stone. Eventually I can be with my panic. So when I can be with my panic, what we call when you see the river, you're out of river. When you see the mountain, you're out of mountain. When you see the television now you're not in the program. You're not in the television. So when you see the river, you're out of river. But you don't have to stop the river. Let river come normally. What happened? We are fall in the river, carried by river. Then if the river become waterfall, very dangerous, right? If you fall in the river, then river become waterfall. Big problem. But if you see the river, that means you're out of river. Then doesn't matter if river become waterfall. Better many people you know spend a lot of money to see the waterfall, right? Inner waterfall. But of course at the beginning not so easy. Of course. So that is benefit of awareness. But if you don't, many people, when you look at the panic, sometimes cannot find it. You cannot find thought, you cannot find panic. Wonderful. If you cannot find. That is what we call non conceptual moment. If you can find panic, wonderful, you're out of panic. So sometime I make joke. There are two liberations here. Horizontal liberation and vertical liberation. Horizontal meaning gap. When you look at the panic, panic disappear. You cannot find it. There's a gap, gap between past and future. And the vertical liberation is you can see panic like seeing the river. When you see the river, you're out of river. So when you see the panic, awareness become more than panic. So liberation comes front and back. That's what I call vertical. You don't have to go out of panic, but because of awareness comes automatically. You come out of panic automatically. Though there is panic. So you have now sky and you have cloud, both. So now second thing is what we call. There's a wisdom comes. What is wisdom? If you can be with the panic, then what we call you will see two phase of panic. The real true color, isn't it? Is there any phrase in the west true colors, True colors of panic. Two colors of panic. Meaning panic become pieces. Now what is panic sensation? Actually, lot of sensation around your stomach and chest and neck and head. And there's image, frightening image. And there are unpleasant voices, you know. And behind the background, believe. This is the way this should. This is the right, this is the wrong, this is the danger. There's some kind of like believe. And if you take out one piece, you cannot have panic or panic become less. So what I call panic become like shaving foam. Looks like piece of rock. Shaving foam. You know, when you shave the beards. I have beards, but I don't use shaving foam. Anyway. Anyway, so the shaving foam looks like piece of rock, but inside full of bubbles. So panic become like that. Then sometime, eventually panic loses meaning. You cannot really Find, define the panic. Wonderful. So that is what we call wisdom. Panic become pieces and they are changing and changing. And these four interconnected, interdependent. And number three, there is self, kind, self forgiveness. When you allow panic, when you allow depression, low self esteem or when you're allowed to have those stress that is real kind to yourself, you're not fighting it. And that is self love, self compassion. So normally, you know there's a coffee called three in one, right? Coffee.
- [31:42]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Three in one coffee.
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C
Three in one coffee. So three in one. So these all this because of panic. Panic is helping you to discover awareness, love and compassion and wisdom. So eventually panic become your teacher, panic become your friend. So this is the second step in the end, what we call awareness. Be with itself, open awareness, meditation or sometimes objectless meditation. So sky be with itself. You don't need to rely on any support, any object. So this is the third step.
- [32:19]
Mingyur Rinpoche
So the third step is an open awareness?
- [32:22]
C
Yes, sometimes what we call objectless meditation, objectless awareness.
- [32:28]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Let me quickly recapitulate. So the first step is awareness of sound.
- [32:32]
C
Yeah, sound or it depends on the people. Some people sound more connected, some people your own breath is more connected. Some people the mental hesitations are more connected. There's three is the first step.
- [32:44]
Mingyur Rinpoche
So three options for the first step, which I guess the overarching term we could use would be a simple meditation practice which could include sound breath or a mantra. The second step is to make that simple meditation practice. Free range everywhere you go, all the time and whatever's happening in your mind. The third step which you're moving to now is open awareness. What does that mean?
- [33:09]
C
That is very difficult to describe. Basically, for example, if you are working a lot, work, work, job. If you're doing physical exercise, you're jogging in the park for half hours and finish your jogging right. Then you rest somewhere in the bench with a deep breath and you don't have to do anything, just be, just drop. So that is the example of how to practice open awareness. Be with your mind as it is. So you don't need to meditate sometime. What we call non meditation is the best meditation. You just be with your own mind and there is clarity, there is awareness, meaning you are not unconscious. You can see, you can hear, everything's there. That sense of being, sense of presence. But there's not any focus, thought, come, go, don't care, emotion, come and go. But you're not lost, you're not become zombie, you're not doing anything. Just being completely natural.
- [34:19]
Mingyur Rinpoche
If people hear this and say I don't quite understand it, Would it be safe to respond by saying steps one and two will make step three possible for you? Eventually that's true.
- [34:29]
C
This is why we have to have steps.
- [34:31]
Dan Harris
Right.
- [34:32]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And so if I were to attempt clumsily perhaps to restate step three to you, it's something along the lines of a non meditation meditation.
- [34:42]
C
Yes. To learn non meditation, first you have to learn meditation. Right? Right. So then eventually you let go of meditation, but you're not lost the sense of being, sense of presence. Sometimes what we call awareness, you can experience it, but you cannot put in the word.
- [34:59]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Some of that experience of awareness will come up in steps one and two.
- [35:04]
C
Of course it will come and this awareness with us all the time, especially when we are young. Sometimes what we call child mind, when you rest your mind be as it is clear present. But problem when we were young is maybe we are not recognized. So the issue is whether you recognize or not. That is issue. There's no issue that whether you have or not with you all the time, even you are experiencing panic, you have this awareness.
- [35:36]
Mingyur Rinpoche
If somebody's listening to this and thinking I still don't get what awareness is or how do I know if I'm with awareness? Would it be correct to say for any nanosecond where you are instead of being completely owned by the stories and sensations of your anxiety, nervousness, panic at the extreme end, instead of just being completely owned by it and stuck in the story or the feeling you have just a nanosecond of just noticing oh, what exactly am I feeling and where in my body? That is awareness.
- [36:12]
C
That is one of the first step. That is awareness. Yes.
- [36:16]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Awareness doesn't need to be fancy or esoteric. It's something that is just available to you right now.
- [36:20]
C
Right now. And you have it. You have all the time, almost what I call 24 hours, even your sleep, you have awareness. But issue is we have to recognize sometimes I give example, like if you have watch, the best watch in the world, you are wearing it. So normally what is the quality of the watch? If I ask you what is the main quality of the watch? There is time, right? So you have the best watch in the world and you don't know that is watch. You thought it's kind of like bracelet, right? And then what happened? You lost time. And if you lost time, what happened? You may lost your job, right? What do you call time? Is money.
- [37:00]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Yes, yes.
- [37:01]
C
And then your boss will fire you because you are not on time. And you always ask other people Excuse me, what time is it? Then eventually you may become homeless. And then one day you met your best friend. Oh, hello. Nice to see you. Okay, what time is it? You ask your friend, what time is it? And your best friend said, you have watch. Why you're asking me? And you thought, don't kidding me, I don't have watch. That's why I lost my job. And your friend said, no, no, no, this is your watch. Introduce your own watch. Of course, at the beginning you cannot believe that this is not a watch. This is bracelet. And your friend said, no, no, no, this watch. And your friend teach you how to look at your own watch. Slowly, slowly, you recognize your own watch. And you can read time. Now watch can tell your time. And you look for job. You get a job and your own time. And your boss are very happy and promotion. And in the end you have very wonderful home. So if I ask you, there's a true situation with one watch, right? First you have watch, but you are not recognized. You become homeless, and later you have wonderful life. Which watch is better?
- [38:17]
Mingyur Rinpoche
The second watch for sure. I don't think that was a trick question. Using the watch is better than not using the watch.
- [38:22]
C
Yes, yes. The only difference is you recognize or not recognize. You have watch at first place, but you are not recognized. Your own watch. Then watch cannot tell your time. Watch, although you have the best watch in the world. But later you recognize it and the watch can tell your time. So this is like awareness. We have this awareness, wonderful awareness, like best watch in the world, all the time. That is who you are. Your fundamental quality, awareness. One with love and compassion and wisdom. But we need to discover it. We need to recognize whether you have or not. That's not the issue.
- [38:59]
Dan Harris
Right.
- [38:59]
Mingyur Rinpoche
So we definitely have it. Whether you're using it is the issue.
- [39:02]
C
Yes.
- [39:03]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And again, I just want to be really clear for folks, because terms like awareness and consciousness and luminosity can sound like something that's only available to monks. But it. It's actually just you're in an elevator, you're feeling claustrophobic. And instead of being stuck in the story about all the horrible things that are going to happen to you, you zero in on the feeling of encasement in your chest. And especially if you're a beginner, you're not going to be able to be in luminous awareness that pervade your whole being for, you know, a half hour at a time, but for a few seconds at a time, maybe even a few nanoseconds at a time, when you can Drop out of unbridled fear into the raw data of the physical sensations. That is awareness.
- [39:50]
C
That is connecting with awareness.
- [39:53]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Okay, what's the difference? What's the difference between awareness and connecting with awareness?
- [39:56]
C
You have awareness all the time. Why you're feeling this anxiety? Because of awareness. Without awareness you cannot feel awareness. Stone cannot feel pain, Rock cannot feel pain. We feel pain that is because of awareness. But we don't know how to connect with it. We are not recognized. So the moment you try to observe that pain, you're connecting with awareness or consciously or what we call purposely on purposely. You listen to sound, you connect with awareness. And you have to have what we call view, meditation awareness. View meaning you have to know what is the awareness, what it does the function, what is the benefit, how to practice. And this is my core being is awareness. You have to have that idea first view, what we call view. And based on that idea and you listen to sound. Then by listening to sound automatically become meditation. Automatically connect with your core being eventually.
- [40:55]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And why this helps with whatever emotion you're dealing with. You know, garden variety nervousness, anxiety, panic, anger, whatever. One of the ways in which it helps is it just breaks it up. It's not so solid anymore.
- [41:07]
C
That's the one reason, right? Yes, that's one. Another reason is you are letting be. For me the biggest problem for my panic is panic. Or panic. Fear of panic, aversion of panic. That keeps my panic ongoing. When I begin to let go of that panic, loses power, cannot function so much. And deeper level I have sense of ha. Yeah. Now panic is coming. You welcome. So the sense of excitement when the panic comes. But symptoms still there for a while. For a few months I have still symptoms. Everything tight my neck and tighter. All the symptoms there. But deeper level I don't mind sometimes laugh on my panic. So what we call aversion and craving, these two are what we call causes of suffering. So aversion is. Let's say when we say don't think about pizza. Don't think about pizza. No pizza. What happened? We think about pizza. So that is the job of aversion. Whatever we do in our life when special, what we call our. The monkey mind creates a monkey mind. The monkey mind does the opposite. When you try to get rid of something become worse or craving, meaning peace, calm, joy. Then they will run away. When you look for peace, peace will say I'm busy. You have to make appointment first sometime. What I call when you drive a car, there's a brake and accelerator, right? Without that you Cannot drive a car. So this aversion and craving is what I call the core being of samsara. Core support for suffering problems, what we call dukkha. So once we let go of that, what happen? Panic automatically liberates. That's what really helps the panic. So first you will see true color of panic. Second, eventually you let go of aversion and craving. But the problem, many people think if I let go of craving and aversion, then how I can function, you know, my life become like zombie. I become so passive. Actually. Not letting go is not giving up. There is wisdom comes, there's love and compassion comes, there's awareness comes. And these are much better than craving and aversion. They can help your life, they can help others, they can do a lot of function. They are very smart, powerful, meaningful.
- [43:40]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Can I add on top of that, people do worry that meditation is going to defang their edge. If you get rid of aversion or craving, you won't be able to function. What I often say to them is, you're not going to get rid of it forever. You're a human being and so you're just learning how to turn the volume down. And when you do turn the volume down, great things can happen like a sense of calm and a sense of generosity and availability for other people. I believe in Tibetan and you'll correct me if I'm wrong. One of the translations for the word enlightenment is a clearing away and a bringing forth.
- [44:15]
C
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Mingyur Rinpoche
So you turn down the noise on your inner junk.
- [44:19]
Dan Harris
The pizza.
- [44:20]
C
Yeah. And even you don't need to turn down in the end. You just connect it with your background luminosity.
- [44:26]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Right. So turning down is too much doing.
- [44:29]
C
Yeah. You don't have to do anything actually.
- [44:31]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Yes, that's a good.
- [44:33]
C
You just discover your fundamental quality.
- [44:36]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Stop doing and it happens anyway.
- [44:38]
C
Yes, stop doing. Just being. And when you know how to be, it will reveal, it will discover. So sometimes I give this example. Like, you know, I have this watch, right? So the craving and aversion, it's like my hand now I have hand, my hand going to hold this watch. My hand is facing down right now. It's facing down and I'm going to grab this watch. So this watch is your life, maybe your job, maybe your work, your fame, your whatever. You have to grab it, right? How you have to grab aversion and craving. Otherwise if you let go of this, you lost the watch. You, the watch fell down, right. If I don't grab what happened? Watch fell down now. So that's our normal way. And can I show you something? Magic, please. The magic is when I let go of my hand, but I will not lose the watch. So I will do that. Okay, so first I will cover my hand by my robe. You cannot see. And I will show you.
- [45:40]
Mingyur Rinpoche
He's putting his hand under the robe.
- [45:42]
C
Now the real magic comes. One, two, three.
- [45:48]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Okay, so I need to describe what's happening with your hand. So he was kind of clawing his watch, which he had taken off his wrist and holding his palm down dramatically clawing onto the watch, which was a metaphor for our clinging. And the correct way to actually think about it is to flip your hand over, palm facing skyward, the watch resting on your palm with no grasp required.
- [46:14]
C
Yeah. So that is the. You're connecting with awareness, wisdom, love, and compassion. You let go, but you will not lost. But of course, the normal way when you palm pacing down, if you let go of aversion and craving, then you cannot function. Yeah, that's true.
- [46:33]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Rinpoche talks about deconstructing your reality to make it workable, when to take a step back or even stop meditating altogether. And what Rinpoche says is the true purpose of the practice after this. I always love it when a company that my family and I are already supporting decides to become a supporter of this show. We have been owners of a Defender for many, many years. I think four or five years. It's the car my wife drives.
- [47:03]
Mingyur Rinpoche
It makes me very comfortable knowing that she and our son are moving around.
- [47:08]
Dan Harris
In a sturdy, reliable vehicle like the Defender. And it looks really, really cool. It's just a great looking car. It really suits my wife better than.
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Mingyur Rinpoche
It does me, given that she's just cooler than I am. And one of the things that the.
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Dan Harris
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- [48:07]
Mingyur Rinpoche
It can be pretty stressful.
- [48:09]
Dan Harris
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- [49:10]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I notice in meditation that I'll have moments where I stop trying so hard. And the awareness is there. It's effortless. Maybe on retreat where I've reminded myself over the course of days that there's nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything's right here anyway. But then some striving part of me comes marching in and it's like, you gotta, you know, hold on to this, et cetera, et cetera. And that can even happen in my daily meditation practice. Is what I'm describing completely normal?
- [49:36]
C
Yeah, of course it's a normal. When I was young, you know, I have a lot of those problems and especially my problem is lazy. I learned meditation when I was nine. And then what I call, I love the idea of meditation, but I don't like the practice of meditation. So then I lost. And then I cannot meditate for a few weeks. Then suddenly, oh, oh, I have to meditate. My panic is coming. And then I'm meditating. Try to get rid of my panic. Hey, panic, you get out. I'm meditating. What happened? Panic become worse. And then I asked my father, my father said, remind me again and again. Don't try to fight with the panic. You have to say welcome. And then I'm trying to say welcome. Hello, panic. Welcome. It helps. But actually why I'm saying welcome is I want to get rid of panic, right? Hello, panic. I'm saying welcome. Are you still there? Why you're not gone? I already tell you, I already welcome you a few times. Become like dog chasing tail, you know? But even though it is a fake welcome, it helps for me. It really helps. The fake welcome, right?
- [50:53]
Mingyur Rinpoche
One of the therapeutic cliches is Fake it until you make it. And in this case it seems like it worked.
- [50:58]
C
Yes. Then I asked my father, so I have this fake welcome. I become like some loop again. I'm fighting with my panic. I'm fighting with this terrible feeling, what should I do? And he said, okay, now don't look at the panic. Look at that feeling of fighting. Look at that feeling of aversion. Panic or panic. Don't watch panic. Look at the behind the panic. And you can include everything, all these junk things, use them as support for awareness and they are become support for your meditation. They have become support for awareness, compassion and wisdom. So sometimes what I call inner recycle.
- [51:35]
Mingyur Rinpoche
You know, say that again. So you, the inner recycling is being aware of at some point you don't even have to be aware of the first arrival, which would be panic. Yes, you can be aware of the add on, which is, I don't want this panic to be here, even though.
- [51:50]
C
I'm pretending that yes, you can be with that one. You can watch that one. I don't want panic. I don't want to panic. Ah, hello. I don't want to panic. You can watch that one. Maybe I give you one example. So normally I don't want panic, I don't want to panic. Somewhere here, behind your eyes, let's say, and you're walking with panic in front of you. This is like boil hot water. I'm going to be with that. It's very difficult. But you forget the behind the eyes, there's another one which is panic or panic. Fear of panic. So then if this panic or panic makes you problem, then don't look at the panic in front of you. Turn the other side. Ah, there's noise here. Look at that one. And that noise becomes support for meditation again, just like sound. So eventually you can include everything as support for awareness.
- [52:39]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And this I think is where we get second step. Being aware of anything at any time, anywhere. Yes. What I was going to say, which is maybe inappropriate, but please tell me if I'm wrong, is that it feels like we're stepping toward understanding a little bit here. The word you used earlier, which can be a little mystifying to people, which is wisdom. And please, I'm taking a leap here. But by wisdom I think what you mean is seeing that everything is pieces and you can deconstruct your reality and then it becomes workable.
- [53:13]
C
Yes, that's the wisdom. So wisdom we will see three aspects. First, we find the pieces. When you look at the panic, you cannot pinpoint panic at the beginning, I am going to look at panic, where you have to watch the sensation. You have to come down. But yeah, there's image there somewhere up there, or I don't know, but there's a nasty voice and there's a. Behold this behind, there's a mindset, some kind of like you already make your own pre concept there. So concept here, sensation down here, word over there. Normally these all become one giant solid rock. But now pieces, and you can move in between the pieces. And in between there's a lot of space actually. And these pieces are changing, changing, changing, changing. Sensation is changing, words changing. So that's what we call impermanence. So second, you will see the impermanence third, what we call interdependent. If there's no sensation, then you cannot have strong panic. If there's no image, actually some kind of like something image, something there. Of course, some people have more sensation, some people have more vision, some people have more words, some people have more belief. But these fall together. So when you take these apart, panic loses meaning.
- [54:33]
Mingyur Rinpoche
And this is why you can be happy, you have anxiety. Because one, any suffering can be a motivation for practice. And once you practice, you see, you basically get the keys to the universe. You see that this solid movie of life, the seemingly solid movie of life, isn't actually that solid. It's impermanent and interdependent, and that is where you get some freedom.
- [54:56]
C
Yes, correct. And that we don't have to make it. That is the true color of the reality. Actually, normally what we are making is we are making single, solid, permanent, very, very unpleasant thing. We're making our own enemy. Actually, we are putting ourselves into our own jail. And this jail, who made it? We made it. So if you made your own jail, why not you can free and actually, it does not really exist. When we really face it, be with the reality as it is, then you will have discovery. The truth will reveal.
- [55:33]
Mingyur Rinpoche
I'm just having this thought that I've practiced meditation for, I don't know, 12, 13 years. I just have to hear this over and over and over again because it cuts against the grain of many aspects of human nature and modern life. And you just need to be reminded of this over and over and over again.
- [55:51]
C
Yes, yes. And each time when we remember, aha, something is learning something. Discovery. Although, same word for me. I've been practicing more than 30 years and every year, aha. Yeah, I'm using the same word before. I'm teaching that I'm listening. But now it's different when I hear.
- [56:10]
Mingyur Rinpoche
It just gets deeper.
- [56:11]
C
Yeah. And deeper and more ordinary.
- [56:14]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Right. Well. And I think in some ways those are the ultimately the same thing.
- [56:19]
C
Same thing, yes.
- [56:21]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Before I set you free from this interview, I know there was something else you wanted to say about the second of the three steps for dealing with anxiety. Where did you want to go deeper on that?
- [56:31]
C
So the second step is sometime quite tricky because now you are really directly working with the panic itself or depression or stress, loss of steam, whatever there in you. So this is quite tricky at the beginning. So normally what we call there are four steps here. First is to be aware. Second is try something different. Third is step back. And the fourth is take a break. So you have to have these four. Because when you begin to be aware of panic at the beginning, what happened become worse. Actually not become worse, but feels like it's become worse. Why? What we call when you look at the muddy river, you cannot see fish. When the river become more clear, you will see fish and you think, wow, so many fish are here. Where they come from? Actually fish are there, but the river is muddy, you cannot see it. So normally when our mind become begin to clear, calm and we will discover more thought. For example, if you are busy whole day, you will not see thought. And after 5pm, you go your home, relax on your bed with the long breath, what happened, you will see a lot of image and then lot of voice. Actually that time your mind is resting, your mind is become more calm. So same thing with the meditation at the beginning, what we call waterfall experience. It looks like it become worse at the beginning. So therefore sometimes when we begin to watch panic at the beginning, we cannot watch overwhelm. So we need second step, what we call try something different, which is small emotion. I told you, I cannot watch my panic at the beginning. So I watch my anger. Or could be anything, or could be listen to sound, go back to the first step, breath or mental recitation. So this try something different. And sometimes even that doesn't work. Then step back. Step back. Meaning don't look at the panic, look at the behind the panic, the aversion of panic. Dislike the panic, be with those step back. And sometimes that doesn't work because we are too tired, too exhausted. Take a break. That's my favorite practice. Take a break. You can drink coffee, you can do physical exercise or sleep. Don't practice meditation for a while. Stop. Meditation is quite good. Sometime also take a break. It's part of the practice Sometimes what we call it, when you hike the mountain, you rest, right? Resting There, it doesn't mean you return back. So some people feel guilt that stop practicing meditation. No problem. You can stop for a while. It's okay. Yeah. This is the four steps.
- [59:13]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Four steps within step number two, which is anytime, anywhere you can meditate. And I think the one that people will key in on there is give yourself a break sometimes. And I think it's useful for you to say it because a lot of people in the west in particular, who are, you know, type A achievement oriented folks, when you say you can meditate anytime, anywhere on any object, well then they think, well, I need to be on my game 24 7.
- [59:37]
C
Yes.
- [59:37]
Mingyur Rinpoche
But actually sometimes it's good to, you know, watch Netflix for a few minutes. Yeah. Anything else I should have asked you?
- [59:44]
C
I think probably like that. Or maybe basic innate goodness.
- [59:48]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Basic innate goodness. Yeah. That seems like a big topic, but please.
- [59:52]
C
So all this meditation practice, the purpose is what we call to discover your innate goodness. Basic innate goodness. So the beautiful quality of our own mind, the awareness, love and compassion, wisdom. Three in one. And this is the background of thought, emotion, perception. Sometimes what I call like the projector has light. Right, Movie projector. And that light projecting on the screen. There's so many stories there. Sometimes beautiful stories, sometime dangerous, sometime nice. Sometimes not nice. But all this story, all these different colors because of the light. Without light you cannot have all these stories. So the light is the awareness. Light is the basic goodness through that light. All this manifestation, what we call panic, depression or compassion, wisdom, all these are the display of the light manifestation of the light. So normally what we see is only story. We don't see light. So the purpose of this practice is to see the light, light like awareness, and to discover this within yourself and then help others as much as you can.
- [61:10]
Mingyur Rinpoche
Point out to your friends that they're wearing watches.
- [61:14]
C
Yes.
- [61:15]
Mingyur Rinpoche
No matter what we've done in our lives, no matter how many mistakes we've made, our birthright is it's right there.
- [61:21]
C
Yep. There's no mistake on the awareness, of course. But the mistake is we follow with we lost in thought, emotion, perception, then problem.
- [61:30]
Mingyur Rinpoche
So wake up everybody. Rinpoche, thank you very much for doing this. Just one last thing. If people want to learn more from you, how can they do that?
- [61:38]
C
We have meditation organization called Terkar T E R G A R. Yeah. We have online classes and we have this systematic practice. I make it kind of a curriculum. For me, it's really benefit to practice step by step. Otherwise I got some good idea and then good idea dissolves and lost into my normal life. So this step by step is really wonderful.
- [62:05]
Mingyur Rinpoche
We'll put a link to Tergar in the show notes. You've also written a few books, can you just name those?
- [62:11]
C
The first book is Joy of Living and the last book is the In Love with the World.
- [62:16]
Mingyur Rinpoche
In Love with the World, yes. And she's been on the show a couple times. So we'll put links to his prior episodes where he discusses those books in the show notes. So if you want to check those out, go for it. Thank you again.
- [62:27]
C
Thank you very much.
- [62:32]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Mingyu Rinpoche. He is still teaching all over the world, online and in person, including in New York State and New York city in the first week of May of 2025. You can go to his website at tergar.org that's T E R G A.
- [62:47]
Mingyur Rinpoche
R dot org to see all of his teaching dates.
- [62:51]
Dan Harris
Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our Production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our Senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our Executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme Ready to level up? Jumbo Casino is your playbook to fun. It's free to play with no purchase necessary. Enjoy hundreds of casino style games like bingo, slots and Solitaire anytime, anywhere with fresh releases every week. Whether you're at home or on the go. Let Shumba Casino bring the excitement to you. Plus get free daily launches, login bonuses and a free welcome bonus. Join now for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Play Chumba Casino today. No purchase necessary. VGW Group Void where prohibited by law. 18/TNCs apply.
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C
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