A (2:10)

That the power of hearing somebody speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something for me. When I need a one on one.

B (2:20)

Holiday boost, I know who to call.

A (2:22)

My friend Joseph Goldstein, my meditation teacher. This is a guy who is just every time I got a problem, I can call him up and he talks me off the ledge and gives me practical and profound advice. AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you've called somebody who matters, now is the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they will hear forever. So spread a little love with a call this season.

B (2:55)

Happy holidays from AT&T.

A (2:57)

Connecting changes everything. I've got a big trip coming up. I'm very excited about this. My family and I are flying to Washington to go to a Washington Commanders football game. As you may have heard me mention before, my beloved brother in law Jack is a pro scout for the Commanders. Love Jack. Love the Commanders. Love their head coach who was on this show not long ago. Anyway, I'm excited about this trip and many of us are heading into a period of time when we're all taking vacation. It's the holiday season and I've got an idea for you while you're away, you could use that as an opportunity to host your home on Airbnb. I love staying in welcoming homes that I book on Airbnb and it got me thinking my home could do the same for somebody else. I put so much work into this house. My wife put most of the work in, but we put a lot of time and energy into this place. So why not use it as a spot to help other people feel comfortable while they are away from home? And think about it. If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your own trip. You get paid for taking a vacation and the extra income you make can be put toward an upcoming trip.

B (4:07)

A splurge.

A (4:08)

You've been eyeing home improvement projects. So if you've got some holiday travel or any other travel coming up, hosting is a pretty cool and unique way to make some of your money back. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host.

B (4:32)

Tom Yamas, the newish anchor of the NBC Nightly News. Welcome to the show.

C (4:39)

Dan, how are you doing, my friend?

B (4:41)

I'm doing great. I am simultaneously really happy for and very proud of you.

C (4:48)

Thank you, my friend. Thank you.

B (4:50)

I recently had to change something on my phone and I lost a bunch of people's numbers, including yours. And I was, I was trying to text you on the day the announcement came and was unable to do that. So please take this as my belated.

C (5:05)

No, it was, I was wondering, I was like, I've heard from everybody except Dan. I go, I thought we were closer than that. But no, Dan, just so you know. You know, when we worked together, I learned so much from you and you were truly one of the great anchors that I got to Sit next to and learn from. Because what you taught me was being a good anchor is about a lot of things, but one of the key things is you gotta be able to listen, and you still remain one of the best listeners in our business. And it makes you a better journalist, because once you listen to people, then you really hear them out.

B (5:34)

You know, I mean, I would say, well, first of all, thank you. And I got feedback in, you know, the not too distant past. I'm thinking specifically of a 360 review I did in 2018, which was quite disastrous, where people pointed out that I might have been a good listener in a journalistic context, but interpersonally, not so great. I was more broadcasting than listening. And so I'm just wondering, for you, somebody who's keyed into the skill of listening, like, what would you recommend for people who are interested in getting better at that, either professionally or personally?

C (6:06)

You know, I think what I've noticed with people when I'm off the air, a lot of times, people may not outwardly want to speak about themselves or talk about themselves, but when you ask them questions and you truly are curious about them, I find that people do open up. And I've always loved to ask people questions, whether I'm on the job or I'm not. Like, I like to get to really know people and to connect with people on a deeper level. You know, we. We have a. A finite amount of time on this planet. If we're going to have a conversation, if we're gonna share some time together, I wanna really get to know people. So I do ask questions. And there's a difference between asking probing questions but asking deep questions. And I think when you listen to people, what it helps you do is it helps you with your next question. Because if you're not listening, you're not gonna ask the right next question. And that works in life. I think it works in our job as well. What I learned from you, though, was when reporters were giving their report and what we call, like, you know, the live shot after the top and tail in those live tales, which is the end after the news package has run, the reporter is saying something live to the anchors and to the viewers. You were always so keen on listening to that, and you always had sort of the right reaction in the sense of, how are we connecting the dots here and what else am I going to say to help the viewer? And that's something that great anchors do. And, I mean, when I would sit next to you on the anchor desk and watch you, I mean, you were a master at that.

B (7:23)

Thank you. And now you're the guy in a suit and tie, and I'm doing this interview in a T shirt and my bathing suit. So.

C (7:33)

Sometimes the student becomes a teacher. Right.

B (7:38)

So I'm curious on this tip of listening, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I used to get people saying to me in my personal life, dude, I feel like I'm being interviewed.

C (7:48)

Yeah, all the time.

B (7:49)

Okay, all the time. So do you think they mean that as a compliment or as a back the fuck up?

C (7:56)

It's usually with my friends who would make fun of me for asking 20 questions. And I think we're old enough now to a point where we know we're not interrogating people as journalists or as lawyers, especially people we just meet off the street. But again, regardless of what you do, I'm going to be interested in your life and I'm going to be interested in your profession and your family life. And I think that's just being a curious person. It's probably what brought me. One of the reasons why I love this job so much is that you constantly learn, right? And that's sort of one of the things you want to do as a good human. You want to constantly be learning. Something that I believe firmly in my life is that if you're not growing, you're dying. So whatever you are doing, whether you're walking or you're in this job or you're playing tennis or you're being a father, if you're not growing, what exactly are you doing there? And so I think by talking to people and learning about their lives, you're sort of growing in a way. But I totally agree with you because my mom and I probably get it from my mom, I'll be in situations with my mom and she'll be just really like giving the Barbara Walters treatment to someone. And she's just met. I'm like, mom, you've just met this person. But I gotta tell you, most of the time, people, they like to talk about themselves and they like to sort of share their. Their life experience, especially as you get older.

B (9:00)

Yes. I think it's kind of like a benevolent manipulation technique because people really love to talk about themselves and you can warm them up. I mean, when I say benevolent, I mean like I'm, you know, you're not manipulating them to like give you all your money, but it's more like making people comfortable. It's a kind of win, win, because I, I like you, like to learn from other people. I don't want to just talk about the weather or lawn care or whatever. And people like, you know, most people like in the appropriate, if you're doing it well in the right style, to talk about themselves.

C (9:33)

Yeah. And I think people live much more interesting lives than they even realize.

B (9:38)

Yes.

C (9:38)

You know, I think people think sometimes if they meet someone like myself or someone like you, who has worked in the media, who has gotten a front row seat to some of history's biggest events, and who are there day in, day out every week covering what's happening around this world. I am fascinated by people, whatever they do, because everyone has an interesting life. I believe that. And they've had interesting life experiences. And also, I think it also comes a lot from. I'm the son of Cuban immigrants and it's very common. When you meet other people who are Cuban, the first question you ask is about their family's journey. I mean, that is like the second question once you realize somebody is also Cuban American. And those are all stories we would share growing up as soon as we met somebody new or somebody else. Like you would hear the stories of how their parents got out or how their grandparents got out and how they came to this country and how they struggled and how life was going. So I think it's part of that too.

B (10:26)

I want to put a pin in your parents story because it's incredible. So I want to come back to that. But you just said something interesting. If you're not growing, you're dying. So how do you, how do you keep growing?

C (10:38)

Yeah, you know, I set goals. I like to sort of make a list every year right after New Year's. And it's goals for my life personally, goals for me as a husband, as a dad, on the job, health wise. And just, just so I sort of have a record to go back at the end of the year, be like, how did I do this year? And I think that's one way. I think it's sort of changing the things you did one year and trying something different the next year. Sort of forcing yourself into an uncomfortable position. Nothing crazy, but if you ran a mile last year, hey, maybe this year you run two miles, things like that. Reading books about topics maybe I don't know or I don't understand, or I need to read up on getting to know people, maybe that I haven't gotten to know yet. Whether it be at work or my personal life. It's sort of setting challenges for yourself, realizing sort of where your limitations are, maybe where your ceilings are and seeing if you can keep growing out of them. And I don't know where I read that quote, but every time I read a good quote, I write it down and it's in my, my notes, in my, my iPhone of the quotes that I love. And it's one of the ones I wrote down years ago. And I still believe in it, if.

B (11:42)

I'm hearing you correctly, and I kind of knew this about you already, it's just kind of a habit now for you.

C (11:48)

Yeah.

B (11:49)

And obviously it's what drove you to journalism, what keeps you in journalism. But it's not just journalism because you're interested in doing all aspects of your life better. It's just an orientation you have to life. It sounds like.

C (12:01)

Yeah, it is. And I mean, it's. But it's everything. It's. It's my faith, it's my health. It's like I said, being a dad, being a husband. There's another quote that I love that Ronnie Lott actually said that great safety from the 49ers who said he loved to exhaust life. And I say that every time I'm talking to people, like, I love to exhaust life. And that basically means just trying to maximize this day, maximize what we're going to put in, whether it's going to be this podcast with you, Dan, or it's going to be Nightly News tonight, or it's going to be pitching batting practice to my son. Like, we're going to exhaust life. We're going to have a great time. We're going to do this to the best. We're not going to really do anything half ass. And that's kind of the way I live my life, along those lines of, you know, if you're not growing, you're dying. And it's not always being uber intense about things because I think I told you this a long time ago after reading your book, I got into meditation. But I also think a part of exhausting life when you maximize your day is being fully present in that day. Because when you, when you truly exhaust life, when you're in. In the zone, or in flow, whatever you want to call it, I mean, you are in that moment.

B (13:04)

Yes.

C (13:04)

Right. You're not thinking about the past or the future. You're there. And to me, I think that's the goal every day. Right. Obviously, to be a good person foremost. But as far as, like, our time on this planet, it is exhausting life and being in that moment.

B (13:18)

Let me just go with exhausting life for a second. I read in Some of the articles that came out when your big promotion was announced that, you know, there's a time in the day after you've hustled all day to get a story, and then you've presented the story on the evening news, and in your case, you're anchoring the nightly news, and then you kind of like, hurl yourself on the floor on the couch for a second. It's like, whoa, okay, we did it. It sounds to me like that's a key moment for you.

C (13:46)

Yeah, I mean, I think on big news events after an election night, and you're on the air for several hours, going live. Dan, you remember those nights, you know about those nights where you're. You're presenting something that is incredibly important to the audience, something incredibly important that is happening on that night, and you have to be there for everybody, and you have to make sure that you're playing at your best. And when that night is done. Oh, yeah. Like, you are sitting down and you're sort of absorbing everything that just happened. It also happens on those terrible stories. You know, those stories where you meet people on the worst day of their life and something horrific has happened, and you're tasked with telling the stories of these people and telling the nation about this awful event that has made our entire country pause. You do have to sort of take those breaks sometimes after those moments, because you can't just keep thinking, okay, now I have to do the next live shot, or tomorrow I have to be in the Today show, or, what are we doing for nightly news? Like, you have to, at some point, absorb what everything you've taken. You don't live in it because it'll paralyze you, But I do think you have to absorb it for a second or two.

B (14:44)

Well, okay, so you brought me exactly where I wanted to go. You don't live in it because it will paralyze you. Your job is to bear witness to the worst aspects of humanity.

A (14:57)

Also the best.

C (14:58)

Also the best. Yeah, yeah.

B (14:59)

But, you know, you've been in Gaza, Ukraine. You cover politics, you cover the migrant crisis, natural disasters, which obviously is not humanity's fault necessarily, although with the climate crisis, increasingly, we can take some of the blame. So you're right there, you know, at the tip of the spear in some really, you know, uncomfortable spots. How do you not let it paralyze you?

C (15:23)

You know, sometimes it does. This is probably the question I get most from younger journalists. We just came back from the naha, which is the national association of Hispanic Journalists, and I get this question a Few times every day when we're doing our panels. And I get it from people that I'm mentoring here at NBC News, too. And it's tough because, you know, you don't ever want to lose that humanity, Dan. Right. Because I think if you lose the humanity, you've lost the reason why you're there. This doesn't mean you have to be overly emotional. This does not mean that you have to be an advocate for anyone except the truth. But you can't lose that human touch. So you have that, and you live in that moment. And you're there, Dan, as you know, in that zone for that interview, that important live shot for the entire show, sometimes an hour long, and you don't ever forget it. And that's what I tell people I said the way I live with it is that I just. I don't ever forget them. And I make a promise to myself that if we need to go back, we will go back. So we won't forget about that community. Because we have the benefit of parachuting in sometimes into these natural disasters. But we know at some point we're getting out. The people that are living through that, they're not going to get out. They're going to have to deal with this. And usually the worst part comes after the storm hits, right? Or after that tornado has pushed through. It's living with no power. It's realizing you've lost your house. It's realizing, oh, wait, your insurance just drops you. You now have no money, and this is going to affect your life for years to come. We're about to mark the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, which, when you think is just so wild, and there are people in New Orleans that are still dealing with the scars of Katrina. So my commitment to them and what I tell them is that you're always going to go back. But I'm sure there'll be at some point in my life, Dan, when. When it will all hit me, right? Because, like, you know, like, you just. You talk to people on very tough days, and you have to absorb that. And a lot of times it hits you. And there. There are many times. And I'm not afraid to show emotion because we're human, right? But there are many times, especially with stories with kids, where it'll hit me in the. In real time and I'll. And I'll need a minute because I'm just human. You know, there's. There's only so much of this, like, you can take. But again, you've been through it. You're trained, you know how to do it. And I think you take that emotion and, and you put it into your writing, you put it into your broadcasting.

B (17:28)

Yeah.

A (17:29)

I agree with all that.

B (17:30)

And I would say for me there's a kind of difference between being in a horrible situation as a journalist or just being in a horrible situation. You know, like you, I've. I've seen some ghastly things in my day, but I'm kind of wearing the goggles of a journal. Like I'm there to get a job done. I feel like a. Some layer of psychological protection as opposed to if I just landed there and was. Had nothing to do except for take it all in. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

C (18:01)

It does. And I actually, in your book, I think you wrote about this and you wrote about it so eloquently and I. It's crazy because I thought the same exact things. And I know a lot of journalists in our profession have thought the same thing. But you put it into words, which is when you were covering a breaking news event, especially when there is danger involved, you feel almost that you are in this cocoon and you somehow are protected, but you really are not. You're as exposed as everybody else. But for some reason when you're in front of the camera and you're reporting live, you sort of feel protected even though you're not. It's a weird feeling, but it's just something maybe we tell ourselves when we're in those moments.

B (18:34)

Yeah. And I think maybe we need it in order to get through it. I think the question and I saw this happen in my own life is, and you kind of made a nod to this is like maybe it'll all catch up with you at some point. I've definitely had it catch up to me in various moments, which is why I think. And you're. You're way ahead of me as somebody who's slightly younger than me but has practices to protect your psyche, which I did not have, especially when I was a combat correspondent. And so I'd love to talk about some of the things you do regularly that I think keep you sane. We'll talk about meditation too. But you mentioned your faith.

C (19:06)

Yeah.

B (19:07)

You come from a Catholic family. You went to a really prestigious Catholic high school in Miami, Berlin. I have a very close friend whose sons went there. It's a boys school and it's an amazing school. And I know that was a place where your faith deepened. Can you just talk a little bit about the role of faith for you?

C (19:24)

Yeah, I'M Catholic and all Catholics are Christians. Not everyone knows that, but not all Christians are Catholics. Grew up, was born a Catholic, had my first communion, was obviously baptized when I was younger, Confirmation and then I went to Belen Jesuit, which was at high school you mentioned. I also went to a Catholic college, Loyola University in New Orleans as well, which has a very strong sort of faith community there. And I think my role and my journey with God is like many Catholics, I was born into it. I go to Mass, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus. And I think sort of on a macro level, when we think about someone like Jesus, you just, regardless of your religion, every religion sort of has a person like Jesus. It is what you should strive to be as a human, which is don't judge others, be a good person and know that this thing that you're living through, it's not about you, it's about everyone else. And I think if you sort of absorb that and you, you think about that, you don't have to be a Christian to live that type of philosophy. But if you are, I believe you're living a good and a meaningful life. That's what I take from it. I pray a few times a day, I go to Mass, my kids go to Mass. I love hearing, you know, whether they be Catholic or, or non denominational pastors deliver sermons and hear their message and talk about how they interpret the Bible. I love the Bible and reading the Bible. Not as much as maybe as I should, but I love to go to church and I love to be surprised by a priest and their homily. It happened just this past Sunday. Sometimes, you know, the Catholic Church has gone through a lot over the past few decades because of the pre sex abuse scandal and so many other scandals that have rocked the Catholic Church. And a lot of the priests that have come now into the fold, there's a lot of new priests, a lot of younger priests. So like at church, depending on your parish, you kind of never know what you're going to get. And we had a sort of an old school priest on Sunday and he gave a really good, really good sermon. I love it when all my kids, I have 12, nine and seven that they listen to. That's when you know, actually he's delivering a good homily because usually it's my son trying to wrestle the three of us when we're in church of the four of us. So if even he's listening, I think that's great and that's what it is. And it's something we've shared with our kids and we pray at night and it's helped me through some tough times and I believe in it.

B (21:37)

What you said about Jesus, I just want to come back to that for a second. I feel a little bit like a fraud talking about Jesus at all, given that I was raised by atheists and half Jewish and had a bar mitzvah.

A (21:45)

And all that stuff.

B (21:45)

But, you know, I spent a lot of time covering faith and spirituality when I worked at abc, where we both worked for a while. And I, you know, I had a friend, I haven't talked to him in a couple of years. Gabe Lyons, quite a prominent evangelical pastor. And he used to talk about wearing Jesus goggles. Jesus, you know, you know, I don't know him and you read the Bible and I don't. Who knows how faithful that is to the. What the dude actually said in real life. And there are lots of historical questions, but he seems to embody what another religious figure, who I really respect, often says. I'm talking about Father Gregory Boyle, who's a LA priest who, who works with gang members past and present. And he talks about Jesus or God embodying the spirit of no matter whatness, like the loving whoever crosses their path, no matter what, even if they've done horrible things. That's not to say consequences are out of the question. It's just that there's a. An understanding of past conditions creating current behavior and innate goodness that unless we're deeply unhealthy, that we all have. And Gabe used to talk about wearing Jesus goggles just as he moved through the world. And that's before I got into meditation. But, you know, in the Dharma in meditation, we. We practice, you know, there's no God involved, but we practice meditation that is designed to boost our friendliness quotient or our compassion quotient. And it really does give you those goggles. No belief required. So I'm yammering at this point, but does any of what I'm saying land for you?

C (23:18)

No. It is. And I think the problem people have with religions and where people sort of maybe lose their way is, is when they get too technical and they try to be too precise and they try to make it more complex. If you just sort of simplify the message and what you're talking about, don't judge others. Be a good person. It's more than just about you. The stuff that Jesus was preaching, if you sort of just bring it to that level, try to live your life that way, you're going to be a good person. You know, I mentioned the sex abuse scandal and I think obviously horrific because of the victims of what happened to these children and probably the worst thing that's ever happened, at least in modern times, to Catholics and to Christians, right? But I think what was so hurtful about that entire episode that it was done by people who so many had put faith in, who had these people that others had listened to, and those people lost their way as well. And I think power corrupts. I think when you make things too complex, that can corrupt too. When you think you have all the answers, that corrupts and that moves you further and further away from what I think Jesus was teaching. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't think we were going to be talking about this today, but it's a good conversation and I think it's a healthy one to have.

B (24:29)

You know, I totally agree.

A (24:31)

Coming up, Tom talks about his meditation practice, his exercise practice and his friendship practice and much more.

B (24:44)

You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything.

A (24:48)

It's why we love a good podcast. Or we save voicemails from loved ones because we appreciate the sound of a familiar voice. When I need a pick me up, I call my friend Willie. Willie and I have known each other for nearly 25 years. He's just an incredibly close friend and I laugh my you know what off every time we talk. That's my guy. AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, call someone. Because that conversation is a chance to say something they will hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything.

B (25:27)

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A (25:43)

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B (25:45)

I got some Bombas socks recently and I love them. In fact, my wife and I have been competing to see who can wear them.

A (25:52)

So maybe that is reducing my happiness just a little bit because it's leading to marital stress.

B (25:56)

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A (26:13)

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B (27:00)

Happier code happier at checkout foreign. Okay, so let's talk about meditation. One of the many things I like about you is you're a person of faith who also meditates, which is a great. Because a lot of people who are Christian or any other religion worry about meditation being from, you know, somehow against their pre existing beliefs. But that's. Well, you tell me, how did you come around to meditation being okay?

C (27:33)

Yeah. You know, it's funny because meditation, some people have argued, I'm sure you know this, that Jesus meditated as well because you can sometimes be in a mode of such deep prayer that you are also meditating. Again, just putting this out there. I'm not saying that Jesus, you know, was meditating. I'm saying some people have interpreted that because his prayer was so deep that he might have reached a meditative state, which he might have. I got through meditation in a really funny way, Dan, and this is a completely honest story. You wrote the book 10% happier about your journey with meditation. I had just gotten to where we worked together at ABC News. And the first thing people told me when I got there, they said, you got to read Dan's book because it has all the gossip about abc. And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, okay, I got to read this guy's book. Because I don't. I mean, there's a lot of people here. I don't know. I don't know, like the last 10, 15 years of this, of this newsroom, Dan has been here and he wrote about it because a lot of what was happening in the newsroom brought you to meditation. And so I read your book and your story and everything you were saying and your anxieties, I mean, it just rang true. It's like, I've lived it. I knew exactly what you were talking about. I was not at your level. I had not had the same experiences as you had because, like you said, you're a few years older than me. But I understood what you were going through inside. I mean, I completely understood what you were going through inside. So I was like, let me try this out. And I started with your app doing the guided meditations and started, you know, just sort of like the instructions you gave. Five minutes a day to ten minutes a day to maybe twice a day. And then it's grown from there to now. I do. I'll do 10 minutes every morning, but I'll also do 10 minutes of sort of visualizations, positive affirmations, and then some more prayer. And so, like, if it's a good day, I'm there 25, 30 minutes. But it's. I come out of it. I feel great. I feel. It feels like a workout. That's the way I explain it to people. You know, I just feel. I feel it makes me feel better. It does. I mean, it's obviously a catchy title, and it sold billions of copies for a reason.

B (29:27)

Thank you. Even if the session of meditation feels shitty, I still. It's still worth doing. In fact, I could argue that the. The tougher the workout, the more the benefit. You know, like the grittier stuff you're confronting or fatigue or distraction or whatever, like, it's. You're really working the mind. And so I always feel great.

C (29:49)

And it's just like exercise. If you're not in the gym for two weeks and then you go back to the gym, you're going to be sore. And if you don't meditate for two weeks and you try to go back to it, your mind's going to be wandering, and you're going to be in a lot of places. I've also found that. And I think it's sort of the. We live in this time where we're inundated. You know, like me, somebody who, like, I talk about exhausting life. If I'm walking, I'm listening to a podcast. I'm listening to a book on an audiobook. I'm reading something. I'm constantly reading the news. I'm always engaged in some type of video. I love music. I'm listening to music. So there are very few times when it's silent, and that's when I meditate, when it's silent. And I find some of your best ideas, yes, some of your best thoughts, you can figure out problems when you sit in that meditation. And maybe that wasn't even the purpose, but Then it comes to you, and it's. It's always like. It's always sort of, as Oprah would say, that aha moment where I. I think, wow, I wasn't even thinking about this. But it just came to me because in the silence, it sort of emerges, and it's a powerful tool. And the best thing about it is that it's free 99. So once you figure it out, you don't have to pay anything. And it's one of those great things. And so I thank you for that, Dan, because I honestly, like, I don't think if I would have read your book, I would have started meditating.

B (30:58)

Oh, that's great to hear. And just to say this thing about ideas coming, there's some neuroscience, I believe, to support this idea. You know, it's like the guy from Mad Men, Don Draper. People asked him, how do you come up with these great slogans? And he would say, well, I work all day, and then I go to the movies. And when you put your brain in relaxation mode, it's why we have ideas in the shower. You put your brain in relaxation mode, connections get made that wouldn't otherwise get made. And so you're definitely not alone or making that up. And on the thing about Jesus meditating, I don't know if he did, although our former colleague Paula Faris, who's a devout evangelical Christian, used to point out to me that the word meditation shows up a lot in both the Old and New Testament. But. But there is, I believe, some neuroscience to show that the brain states of deep prayer really resemble the brain states of deep meditation. So, yeah, something's happening here.

C (31:50)

And. And some prayers, you know, if you say in Our Father or Hail Mary. And again, I just want to be very clear here, because I don't want to get in trouble, but I'm not afraid to say these things. When you say in Our Father or Hail Mary, you know, you are saying a repetitive prayer, and you're either praying to the Virgin Mary, you're praying to Jesus and to God. I have never done. Is it a transcendental meditation? But I know that you have a word sometimes, right, that you sort of repeat to yourself a mantra. I've heard this on your podcast, and when I first heard that, it reminded me a little bit of these prayers, because even though you're praying several words and several sentences and they're full thoughts to who you're praying to, the repetition sort of reminded me of the mantra as well, the way you guys were describing it.

B (32:29)

Yeah, I think there's probably a lot to that. But let's just briefly touch exercise because I know that's a part of your daily or daily ish routine for maintaining your sanity. You can just say a few words about why it's so important to you.

C (32:40)

Yeah, I think it's a high stress job. And like I said, we are so plugged in from the moment I wake up. And I know it's not healthy, but it is who I am and it's just the nature of the business. From the moment I wake up, I'm getting news and I'm getting emails about news and updates about stories. And this morning, right when I woke up, it was the suicide letter of, you know, this shooter who went into the NFL building and unfortunately killed several people. And that's the first thing I'm seeing when I wake up. And it's just, it's out of habit, you know, you just kind of grab the phone. It's. I've seen the alerts and I want to make sure I haven't missed anything that's going to jolt me out of bed because maybe I have to get to New York quickly or I have to get on the air somehow. So because of that, I have the meditation in the morning, but then I have, right after that meditation, maybe an hour or so after I've done some calls, I get in the gym and I'll either go for a run, I'll lift weights, or I'll play tennis or something. And it's just to kind of get an hour of physical exercise in. And I just, I feel better. I just think it's something you need to do. Every study we have done on Alzheimer's, on dementia, on aging, every study goes back to keeping an active life, keeping your mind active and keeping your body active. And every time we do these stories, I'm like, guys, we've done 10 of these. And they keep finding the same things, but there's always one extra nugget that makes it newsworthy. But at its core, every doctor, every study has shown keeping an active mind, keeping an active body will help you live longer. And I mean, I'd love to live longer. So I'm going to be doing it and it's something good. And I think just having worked out as a kid with my friends growing up, it's something I think connects me to my past too. And it's fun. And playing tennis, I'm a terrible tennis player, but playing tennis is fun. And talking trash with your friends while you're playing, that's that. That. That's actually where I excel at. Not at any. Anything actually technical. It's the talking trash. That, to me, is great, you know? Yeah.

B (34:30)

I think talking trash with your friends is undervalued as a mechanism for health. You don't even have to talk trash, which is doing something, hanging out with your friends. I mean, there's a ton of data that nobody's talking about on Instagram to show that if in this era of optimization, like, your relationships are the thing to optimize.

C (34:51)

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's this great book which I don't know if you've read on the 8020 rule, and I don't know if you've read that book, but it's great. It's written by a guy who. He worked in finance, but he was also a gambler. He loved gambling. He's got this great line in the book that says earning money is great, but winning money, oh, there's nothing better than winning money. But anyway, he has this mathematical formula and it's really easy to understand. 20% of your friends bring you 80% of your happiness, and it works for everything. Right. 20% of your sources bring you 80% of your stories. Like, 80% of your stress probably comes from this 20% of your life. It's things like that. And after reading the book, it puts a lot of things in perspective in a sense of how do you want to spend your day and how do you want to spend your time and who you spend time with. And it's true. When you spend time with that core group that knows you, you spend time with the family you love, you're going to maximize your time. You start to sort of freelance. Oh, maybe we'll go to this, maybe we'll go to that. I know that's not you, Dan. That's when it starts to get sort of. Sort of be a waste of time and you don't get that same experience, I think.

B (35:53)

Would you classify yourself as an introvert?

C (35:58)

I don't think I'm an introvert, no. I mean, we've worked with a lot of introverts. It's, you know, I don't think I'm an introvert, no. I'm an extrovert, But I can get very deep inside of myself. My wife, I'm sure, can tell you that at times I am an introvert at home, but I don't think I am. And I just say that because I know true introverts who are some of the most talented people I've ever met. Some of the most talented people I've ever worked with. And it's funny because we work in a business where, you know, it's television and it's a spectacle and things are big and you have to be very creative and they can be very quiet people. But as soon as they get into an edit room or as soon as they get into a script, it's like they are true geniuses. And so I don't think I'm an introvert in that way. I'm usually out pretty outgoing. How would you describe yourself, Dan?

B (36:41)

I'm a super max extrovert. Like I. Yeah, I was going to.

C (36:43)

Say, you're out there, you're talking to.

B (36:45)

People when you were saying, you know, maybe I won't go to this thing or whatever. Like, I'm the guy. I'll go to the extra thing. Like my wife won't I go by myself. Yeah, yeah, I'll take the risk. I won't go twice if it sucks, but like, I'll try it because I'm always looking to, you know, meet new people. I love that. You know, in terms of introverts, we've both worked with that. I hope you won't mind me saying this. I'll text him just to confirm, but the name that came to mind is George Stephanopoulos. Like, really shy dude.

C (37:11)

Oh, he's one of them. Yeah. Well, just. I mean, I don't even know if it's shy because George is very confident. But yeah, I'm sure George. And we're not saying any secrets. He could be, he could be quiet. I remember he told me a story, I think he was interviewing with Clinton and I, I think he told Clinton, I'm the guy who wrote Dukakis jokes. It was something like that. And it was like they both started laughing because, you know, clearly Dukakis had no sense of humor. And, and, and George is. George is a very cool guy. Brilliant, brilliant guy and a very strong interviewer. But yeah, he's not out schmoozing. That's not him.

B (37:44)

No. At least not that I've seen. All right, let me ask you a question that I, I suspect you get all the time. We're in a quite a stressful news cycle, at least for, for many people. I think for the people listening to this show, it's a stressful news cycle. There may be folks who are loving this news cycle, but whatever you feel about Trump, there's a lot going on and of course there's wars in uk, Gaza and climate stuff. There's A lot to pay attention to. And we now have this technology that floods us, you know, right on our phone. So I know you have to like just be drinking from the fire hose all the time, but when people ask you like, how do you, how can I consume the news without losing my mind or being, you know, coiled up in rage all the time, do you have any thoughts on, like, what you would recommend?

C (38:26)

Look, I, I'm in the news business, so I want to be mindful of how I'm going to answer this question. I, I think you gotta give yourself a break sometimes. If you're getting a crazy amount of news alerts. If you subscribe to four or five different news organizations in their news alerts, I mean, your phone is blowing up probably every hour and you're probably getting the same news alerts just from different news groups. So maybe dial it back there. And I would say just stick with the news organizations that you love and that you respect and you trust. I think nightly news is the gold standard. And then, you know, I would be mindful of the opinion based journalism you're getting. I'm not saying run away from it because I believe the news business is like any business, just like the coffee business, right? Some people like their coffee strong, some people like espresso, some people want crazy lattes. The news business is not unlike that. There's something for everyone in America that is capitalism, right? That being said, just be mindful of what you're getting and how you're getting it. And if you're getting it from friends or from Facebook or not verified sources, just be mindful of how you're sharing that kind of stuff. That's the only thing I would say, right? But everyone's an adult and they can do whatever they want. And a lot of people have turned to alternative news sources because in some ways we have let them down. And I'm not saying we like NBC News. I'll say we as sort of the media in general. And it's upsetting, but I always think that we can maybe win those folks back. And there are still millions of people who have stayed with us because they know what we're doing. It's definitely a tricky time and it's a strange time where you have to go and fact check three different times when you get a news report. It's upsetting that Americans feel they have to do that now.

B (39:59)

It's been four years roughly since I retired and I would say, you know, was still a heated time when I was in the game, but it's much more divisive and toxic and polarized. Now, do you find that you're kind of walking on eggshells to a certain extent, because it's so easy to piss people off?

C (40:21)

I don't. And I'm not trying to be coy here or not tell you the truth, because I know what we're doing, right? And if you stay focused and you are reporting the truth and you're sticking to the facts and write these mantras, but I truly believe them, and I say them in every interview. Without fear or favor. Right? Without fear or favor. I believe in that. And tough, but fair. Because I think our job is to be tough in the sense that we're supposed to ask the tough questions because we're working for those people at home. So. And we're in those briefing rooms, so we should ask tough questions, but we gotta be fair. So I don't. I don't walk on eggshells. Do I think our reporting has to be bulletproof? Yes, but it always has to be bulletproof. Since I got into this business, anytime you did an investigation, anytime you did any kind of major story, you had to make sure you were buttoned up and it would go through layers. And we still have those layers at NBC News. Some of the others, they don't even have a layer. And we have a few layers, you know, to make sure that we're right. Obviously, we have a bigger target because we have bigger audiences. But going in every night, I know that we have tried our hardest and we have done our best as a news organization to present the stories that are on. And when something's not ready, one of the greatest rules in journalism, when in doubt, leave it out. And if we're not 100% sure, if we're not bulletproof on something, we're going to hold it.

B (41:36)

Yeah. To me, none of that sounds coy. Like having been in, you know, a job similar to yours, the truth kind of is a shield. So I might piss people off. But I have checked it twice. I've checked it thrice, even. And it's not just me. One of the things that really made me feel protected was because I'm aware that I, like everybody else, have biases, was the fact that there's editorial oversight. Like it's going through several layers. Your producer, who's with you in the field, the producer and the anchor back in New York City, legal and standards department, they're all eyeballing this stuff before, you know, it comes out of my mouth on television and. And biases can still be in there because I think there are probably cultural biases, you know, shot through the mainstream media for sure. But in my experience, inside the belly of the beast, it was a lot of well intentioned people trying to cover the news, as you say, without fear or favor.

C (42:28)

And I think also I talk about this a lot. I like to think of the newsroom as sort of a family style dinner. And what I mean about that is that I want to hear from people.

B (42:35)

Yeah.

C (42:36)

So if I like to ask questions of the news, like, is this the lead? What do we think about this? Hey, what do you think about this? Because I want to. I want to make sure people are speaking up and hearing because there are a lot of different people in the newsroom from different backgrounds. And I want to make sure we're hearing from everybody to make sure we're getting it right. And that's the benefit of having sort of a bustling, bubbling newsrooms. And you've worked in these newsrooms. Unfortunately, what happened during the pandemic is that, you know, everyone sort of went into work from home and into their silos of, you know, just sort of working in front of a computer and trying to do their own jobs. Now people have come back over the last two, three years to the office place. And it's like some people, I'm sure it's taken time to kind of come back and, and talk and be. And it's okay to be loud and to say, what do you think about this? Or I think we should do this. And that's what I want because I think that. I think that journalism gets better the more we sort of talk and share ideas and everyone has a sort of piece of the pie.

B (43:28)

Yes, I completely agree. What I found as I've gotten older is that in the news business, when I was coming up, it was dominated by people who really didn't want to hear your opinion.

C (43:39)

And yeah, no, that is true.

B (43:41)

And that I took that kind of hierarchical, militaristic style into my. Now I'm hearkening Back to my 360review again, where, you know, the people who worked for me were like, dude, you know, you say you want openness, but like, do you really? And I've really had to work hard to actually mean what I was saying.

C (44:01)

You know, it's a very good point because I've thought about that as well, because we both worked for some people that were, I think, incredibly talented, who had great ideas and were great newsroom leaders and they knew instantly whether something was a story or not a story or what was going on, but they made decisions. And I think that is you can do both. I think you can be that person, Dan, and you can also be the person to say I love the phrase let's red team it. Which red team is like what's the complete opposite idea? What's like something out of left field. Like, let's lead with this. Like, oh, okay. Because I think that just helps people out. Because again, it's good to have people that are making decisions that are effective leaders. But also you gotta listen to your people too, I think.

B (44:42)

I love that. Let's red team it. I'm gonna steal.

A (44:49)

Coming up much more with Tom Yamos.

B (45:00)

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A (45:01)

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B (47:01)

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B (48:01)

We don't have a lot of time.

A (48:02)

Left, but I do want to hear about your parents.

B (48:05)

As you know, I I knew about your Cuban heritage and you are, as I will have said in the introduction to this episode, you're the first Latino anchor of a weekday evening news broadcast, which is amazing and awesome. Well, I guess it's not awesome that it took this long, but it's awesome that you're the one. Yeah, your parents story. I didn't really know all of the details and so can you share some of it? Because it makes this achievement, I think, even more meaningful.

C (48:32)

Yeah, I want to tell a quick story and we have time, don't worry. But I'm going to tell a quick story. Dan, I don't know if you remember this, but when Fidel Castro died, do you remember this on Weekend gma?

B (48:41)

Yeah, dude.

C (48:42)

So Fidel Castro dies and I get awakened either by my wife or a text alert that Fidel Castro has died. And I've thought about this moment as a journalist, as a Cuban American my entire life. My parents have talked about this moment. It was. Cubans thought it was going to be sort of this. This turning point. In Cuba, though it wasn't. And I remember I opened up the New York Times app and the first line of the report was. I think it said something like, the prince of the revolution has died, something to that effect. And I. Of the obit of the New York Times, and I immediately wrote an email to you and I think maybe to Paula Faris and the EP of the show. And I said, listen, I don't know if you guys are gonna be covering the story, but you should really think about two perspectives. Sometimes there is this romanticism that's written about Fidel Castro that is completely off base. He was a killer and a liar. And I sent you the email and then you write back, do you wanna come on? And I said, okay. And I didn't really think it through, but I said, sure. And we came on and we reported the news. I think we had Jim Avila, maybe even in. I don't know if he was in Cuba. I don't know if we had sent him to Havana, but I think he might have been there. And then I remember we came out and you came to me and I said that. And I broke down, and it was kind of wild because I broke down on live TV and I sort of shared the stories of how we grew up having to send food and money and put medicine and packets of Kool Aid into greeting cards and hide them because the government would steal it because there was no money or food. It was sort of a crazy moment on live television. But I'm glad I did that, you know, because that's like. That was the whole reason why I had sort of written you, because I didn't want. I didn't want it to be sort of whitewashed in a way of. Of saying, oh, this. This leader. You know, some people say he was a hero because he stood up to the United States, but he was a terrible person. He was a dictator in the worst form, you know, and he destroyed a beautiful country. And it was just cool that, you know, you sort of. You saw the passion in the email and you realized you're like, okay, let's. Let's put Tom on. And I got to be honest with you, I don't know if they were happy how that turned out, but I think it was important.

B (50:47)

Who's they?

C (50:48)

Management, really. It was definitely a very powerful and impactful television and journalism. But I had heard some stories, and again, they could be rumors, I don't know. But like that maybe some weren't super happy about the way that turned out, but it was real. I mean, it doesn't get more real than that.

B (51:03)

I remember thinking it was incredibly powerful and brave, not that you had planned it, but to not stuff it down and just to show some basic humanity given what you and your family had gone through. Yeah. If the bosses didn't like it, I think they were behind the times. Like we were in a different world where being a full fledged human is allowed.

C (51:25)

You know, it's interesting because people have asked me about bias in the media, and I've heard about bias in the media since I was a child, because every time Fidel Castro was interviewed, my parents would have a sort of a post game, like with all the uncles and aunts and cousins and talk about was that interview biased or were they too soft on him? And I remember these conversations as a child. So I remember hearing about sort of bias in the media and how you had to be tough but fair and ask tough questions as a little kid, before my parents had any idea that I was going to be in this business. But that has been sort of top of my mind since I was a. Since I was a young person.

B (52:01)

Yeah. And I think I got a better sense of your personal and professional trajectory reading a little bit more about how your parents had immigrated. And not under easy circumstances. It's never easy to loot, to, to feel like you need to flee your homeland, but it's also not easy to get into this country. And they, they have some stories that you might want to talk about. But, but you grew up engaged with the world in ways that most children are not.

C (52:27)

Oh, oh, completely engaged in the world. And conversations about communism, conversations about presidential elections, conversations about what was happening with immigration, with the rules surrounding Cubans that were trying to leave Cuba, the Cuban rafter crisis, the Soviet Union collapsing and then pulling out of Cuba. I mean, this was like a Tuesday for us. Like we were, we were living through all this in the 80s and 90s. And so watching news in both English and Spanish was an everyday affair. And talking about it was very common. I mean, we talked about all things in life. You know, we weren't like this was dominating our life. But I remember a lot of conversations at any time, like someone would call from Cuba. Everyone had to be quiet because it was an important call and it was what family needed.

B (53:08)

What.

C (53:08)

And what do we had to send and how this person was doing and this person might arrive, can we help them? But yeah, that sort of shaped my Childhood in that regard, I think a lot of immigrants and the son of immigrants have a similar experience. Cuba just happened to be a very active player on the global stage. And I think that's why it was so at the forefront of our news viewing and sort of in our lives. And then you had. I was surrounded. You know, my community was 99% Cuban American. It was literally all my friends, of course, all my relatives, but baseball teams, I mean, there were obviously other kids who were people that were from Miami or grew up in Florida that weren't from Cuba. But by and large, in the 80s and 90s, I mean, it was northwards.

B (53:48)

Of 90%, to say the least. Immigration is a prominent story in the news right now, and you've got to cover it. How does your personal history, your family's personal history, color your coverage and do you have to police whatever biases you might have?

C (54:04)

I know I'm under a microscope. So my mom left right after Castro takes over. So her family gets out pretty quickly. They lived in Havana and they come to Fort Lauderdale and life is very hard for them pretty fast. Money runs out and everyone has to start working pretty fast, including my uncle, who was a child, and my grandmother who had not worked in her life because they had come from an affluent family in Cuba. And then suddenly she's taking on multiple jobs. And then my dad's side of the family, they wanted to kind of wait out Castro a little bit and see what would happen. I mean, because it wasn't like politics were incredibly stable in Cuba. So there was always a chance that maybe someone would overthrow Castro. So they stood back and waited about six years and they saw things get really bad in those six years. So my dad is getting to a point where his parents don't want him to go to school anymore because they're teaching them that, you know, Fidel will provide and God will not provide and basically all sort of like the Ten Commandments, if you will, of communism. And they're just seeing scary things happen. Political dissent doesn't exist anymore. He starts to devalue the currency. I mean, things are changing. There's obviously things with the United States are getting worse and worse by the day. So they get out and they go through Mexico six years later and they have to actually cross through the Rio Grande. They are political refugees, but they weren't able to fly out of Cuba because at this point, Casper sort of shut everything down. So they crossed through the Rio Grande and my father and my. My aunt had to cross the Rio Grande with a coyote and they cross over that they didn't see their parents for a while. It wasn't a long time. But it was kind of one of those moments that my dad obviously would never forget as a child because he was 12 years old. And then my parents, my grandparents, come over and they make their way by bus to Miami. They start a life there. They are political exiles, and they start that process, and they start from scratch, from nothing, you know, no money, not knowing the language, and little by little, trying to build up their lives as well, just like my mom's family did and struggled a lot, just like every Cuban did. And many Cubans who came over had it probably even worse than my parents did. There were a lot of people that came over as children without their parents. What was called Peter Pan flights. Pedro Pan, Jeff Bezos's dad, Mike Bezos, is actually a Pedro Pan kid. Where basically things were so bad in Cuba. Imagine this, Dan. People were putting their children on planes and flying them to the United States with the help of the Catholic Church. And then these American families would take in these Cuban refugee kids and they would raise them. And some kids never saw their parents again. It's crazy. So they live through that. That's kind of like the backdrop of us being very engaged, at least me in the news and watching the news. So you asked how I cover immigration. I know there's a microscope on me. I'm the son of immigrants. But I also have a superpower in the sense that just because I can speak Spanish, I can get now the story of the person who is either being detained or who's trying to cross into the United States. I know we are a country of laws. I believe in this country. I think it's the greatest country in the planet. My parents taught us to be very proud Americans. And I know that there's laws and you gotta follow the laws. And so as a reporter, I take all that out of it, and I just use what I have, which is my skills. Knowing that I can speak Spanish, I can get the story on this side, I can speak to border patrol on this side, obviously in English. And to understand what the immigrant experience is that some someone has to get up and walk from Venezuela through Central America into the US what is going on in their life that they've been compelled to do this with children? And then knowing that there's a reality that they're not going to get in now, that they have been stopped and they have been caught and they're likely going back, it's telling that story and that's what I feel my job is. That's it. That is my job to tell what happened. My job is not to advocate for one side or the other. Now, if there are abuses on either side, we will report that and we will always put that on television. But like you said, I mean, the truth is where I'm headed. And that's the only thing that I'm concerned about.

B (57:56)

Makes complete sense and never easy to be under a microscope. But as you just said, and I was saying before, the truth is a great shield in these situations. Let me ask you just as a final question here, and I don't know if this is the right button up question, because I have no idea where this is going to go. But I read that you hand out this book that I had never heard of called the Lion Tracker's Guide to Life. You hand it out to people.

C (58:21)

Yes, I will send it to you. I give it to people. It's not like I'm not like Dan Harris going to like that Saturday party with a trunk full of the 10% happier books, like, just like flinging them, like, yeah, I'll go to that new party. I'm going to have 20 more books. So no, I don't end it out, but I give it to people. People who like to think about life and hold a copy of somebody I gave it to because she loves thinking and talking and quotes and just what is our purpose out here? And she's just such a great teacher and friend. But I gave it to her because I was really touched by the book. And there are so many great quotes. Essentially, the book is about a kid who grows up in South Africa and his family buys a preserve and they rebuild the preserve and they make it this beautiful area. And it's his connection growing up with the guides who are the locals, the people who live in Africa who go out and track the lions and what he's learned from them. And sort of the main focus of the book is this quote, which is, I don't know where I'm going, but I know how to get there. And the lion tracker listens to that because the lion tracker can get lost suddenly. And they may not know where they're going, but they see a blade of grass sort of folded in a strange way. They see what may be a print another way and they follow that. So again, they don't know where they're going, but they know how to get there. And to me, that was like, that's it, man. That's what this is about. That's what this journey is about. And it's sort of listening to yourself and believing in yourself and not knowing where you're going to end up, but just sort of knowing how to get there. Another great quote, I mentioned this with Nahota too, is that, you know, too much chaos is unstable, but too little is not living. And I kind of believe that, too.

B (60:00)

Yeah. Yes. Well, it's also a denial of reality because everything's changing all the time and if it feels stagnant, then you're. You're missing something big.

C (60:10)

Yeah, I agree with that. And I'm going to send you a book. I'm going to send you a couple books.

A (60:13)

All right.

B (60:14)

I appreciate it, Tom. So I'm grateful to you for making the time. You're a busy dude. I really appreciate it. And also just super happy for, as I said before, happy for you. Proud of you. It's just great to see Dan.

C (60:27)

It's been an honor to be here. You are somebody that I have looked up to. You are such a gifted communicator and I'm so happy that you are still communicating with people in probably a much bigger platform now and helping people because, I mean, 10% are happier. Definitely changed my life and I know you've changed a lot live. So thank you for hearing me out and listening to my story.

B (60:47)

Thank you, brother. And as I said before, I get to work in my bathing suit, so it's. It's more comfortable than it used to.

C (60:53)

Oh, yeah, Don, I'm sure you're in the bathing suit now.

B (60:55)

I am, I am, I am. Last, Last question, Tom. Just remind everybody of the name of your show, where we can watch it and why we should watch it.

C (61:04)

I got two shows. NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas. It's on NBC, 6, 30 Eastern. A great network newscast. We have a great team. It is the best of NBC News at night. And then we have Top Story, which is on NBC News now. It is our streaming show. As soon as Nightly News wraps at 6 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds, we hit a button and the studio comes up and it's Top Story and it's our streaming show. It's an hour of all the best of NBC News. Just a little bit longer and geared a little bit more towards a younger audience.

B (61:31)

And we can watch that on Peacock.

C (61:33)

On Peacock, on NBC News now. Anywhere where you have a WI fi signal, it's free and it's the future of our business. And NBC News has leaned into it and it's a great product.

B (61:42)

Thanks again. Tom.

C (61:43)

Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

B (61:50)

Thanks again to Tom Yamos.

A (61:52)

Very proud of him and very cool to have him on this show.

B (61:55)

Don't forget to sign up over@danharris.com and.

A (61:57)

You can join our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. Our next one is on Tuesday, December.

B (62:02)

16Th at 4 Eastern.

A (62:04)

We do these every Tuesday at 4 Eastern.

B (62:07)

Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make this show.

A (62:09)

Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily.

B (62:12)

Our recording and engineering is handled by.

A (62:14)

The great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theater.